Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[pieguyn]

vote: Cabd

MOD: V/LA until Monday.

I should probably be able to get on and post time to time but I won't be around much until I get back from vacation.

[pieguyn]

also cabd isnt in this game

wahaha

[pieguyn]

your question to Wicked just seemed very softballish.

what kind of question would you have expected at that point?

[pieguyn]

I agree layla looks town but it's not for page 1; I mostly liked her questioning ffery's town read on her (25) and her lines of questioning after that.

[pieguyn]

i don't think it was just the question itself, i think my last post kind of clears that up?

seems like kind of a stretch

[pieguyn]

can you explain why you think my analysis of page one is a stretch but fferyllt's isn't? curious as to how you are parsing the two.

it's essentially saying Layla is scum because scum might open in the way that she did. there's nothing in there that explains why, specifically, she wouldn't be likely to do the same thing as town. I didn't have any problem with her opening posts, either.

ffery, on the other hand, said "newb-scum are less likely to be spontaneous than newb-town". I don't agree that 20 by itself was town, but either way it laid out something she specifically thought was unlikely to come from scum.

walk me through this in more detail?

How so? And how does that make you feel about Vinkah?

don't really think he's scum for it, just on the wrong track

[pieguyn]

Your hope of your friends being town means you're probably scum manipulating them already.

it's fairly standard for Tammy to immediately reach out to people she knows/wants to work with at the start of the game. do you have any scum reads outside of her?

[pieguyn]

Wicked looks town for 74.

implosion looks town.

I hate RC's vote on notsci. I think that, if he was actually pissed off at notsci, wanting to policy him would be something he'd have felt like doing at the start of the game or when he first started to push him. what he did felt like he came up with it after the fact - as if he thought attempting to push a policy lynch would be a good thing to do in order to look busy/feign frustration and so there it was. I also hate that when Anen pushed him over it he wrote it all off as a "policy vote" when he had previously poked at notsci for a non-policy reason.

vote: RC

[pieguyn]

This is a weird question for someone with no scum reads to ask...

I don't think he's scum for it, I just think he's on the wrong track: he's calling Tammy scum for something I know she does at least as town and smth I'd expect her to do alignment regardless. the entire idea is to get him to push someone else. it also serves to get him to produce alignment-relevant content bc the Tammy reasoning is something I could easily enough see someone who doesn't have experience with Tammy pushing regardless of alignment.

this makes sense and pretty much kills what i was thinking.

what were you thinking?

also

@notsci:

you should wagon RC with me cos I'm pretty sure we're seeing the same thing with his push on you here. I'd also like if you could walk me through Vinkah-town and Anen-town bc I'm null on both so far.

[pieguyn]

I'm going to be giving you sideways glances all game though.

:>

Vinkah is kinda just a gut thing.

Anen's opening stuff just kinda feels town. It's not a ton but I felt like whereas most of the playerlist was null him I just kinda felt like "hm, maybe he is town"

I didn't like Anen's 65. there were a lot of throwaway comments there with no real push on anyone. the closest thing to a push was his first quote (re: implosion) which I thought was meh because I've seen that kind of statement coming from town as often as scum. I also thought he could have put a lot more effort into the push on me at the end - I don't get what he was trying to do with the last question.

on the other hand, I liked him calling out RC's push on you. I'm primarily waiting to see what he does when he gets back.

[pieguyn]

few quick thoughts before sleep:

Nacho might actually be scum. I don't *really* want to elaborate on this at this point bc he only had the one chance to do anything and I want to see what he does when he gets more engaged in the game before going any further with this, but he's not hitting certain notes I'd expect from him as town here. I'd also like to know if he makes anything of Anen's other posts when he gets back.

I don't think Cheetory's RC push is scummy. while I see what ffery is saying about his focus being narrow, in this situation, pushing RC and having no other reads seems like a reasonable enough course of action from someone who hasn't any time to do anything: he agrees with the primary wagon and started there because it was the most important thing to discuss at that point. I don't get the impression he's actively avoiding forming reads elsewhere off it. I'd (again) like to see what he does when he gets back.

I'm agreeing with the scum reads on Anen.

[pieguyn]

If the idea was to get him to push someone else, then why not just explain that you disagree with his vote? Asking him who his other suspects are doesn't seem to accomplish the goal of getting him to move his vote. The question just felt strange to me because you hadn't provided any scum reads but you were asking Gnome for more scum reads after he'd already given one.

EBWOP: Also, if he voted Tammy for something that you think is null, why are you making an effort to get him to switch?

I did? I told him when I asked him that question why I disagreed with it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the second question. his reasoning re: Tammy is something that almost certainly won't lead anywhere, hence it's pointless to pursue it. do you disagree?

Image conscious is part of what I've seen in his scum game, but his own description of how he plays scum fits the two games we played where he was scum to a T. I'm not seeing that here, and I'm seeing more of the irascible stuff I picked up on in the Walking Dead large theme game.

walk me through this in more detail?

[pieguyn]

Nacho's thoughts on Gnomeo's post, for the most part, mirror mine. the other thing I hated about it was that he's continuing to handwave the fact that he was pushing Tammy for something that was entirely playstyle related as "lol, I don't use meta". it doesn't matter if you use meta or not - if someone tells you something you're pushing is objectively wrong, the correct reaction is to step back and reevaluate it. what he did, on the other hand, amounted to ignoring it and going "nope". regardless of what you think about meta, if you say someone is scum for X and then someone tells you they do X as town all the time, you don't just entirely handwave dismiss it.

I'm about to pass out any second now. this will probably be the last chance I have to do anything until I get back from vacation Monday night - I'll respond to specific posts/stuff directed to me likely then.

[pieguyn]

I'm actually pretty fucking satisfied with Gnomeo's posts on the last few pages. waiting to see where this goes for the time being.

[pieguyn]

yeah, I'm only able to get on sporadically (and will probably be on a plane for the majority of the duration of tomorrow). I'll be back in full tomorrow night.

[pieguyn]

I'm sorry, I'm in a really awful mood right now and don't feel like I can get to this in-depth tonight. tl;dr of where I'm currently at:

as I said before, Gnomeo is town. I don't see the way he's pushing the Tammy read here coming from scum. there are a few things that specifically made me think this that I can't think of right now OTOH, but on a general level, I get the impression he believes most of what he's saying, and a lot of it makes a lot more sense as town not understanding why the entire game is jumping down his throat for what he thought was an innocuous read as opposed to scum attempting to force a read for whatever reason. I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.

from what I could tell, Cheetory's push on Tammy was almost entirely semantic. I want to look at it more in-depth later, but one thing I disliked was 358 primarily bc Gnomeo had explained why he was being stubborn about the read already. it felt more like he saw a lot of people pushing Gnomeo for being stubborn about the Tammy read, thought it would be a good angle to push to look like he was doing something and there it was. I also don't really get why he would have expected Gnomeo to be aware of how Tammy opens games (re: the first question).

I feel better about Nacho based on his recent posts. I still don't *really* want to elaborate on what first pinged me re: him bc I'm not remotely sure about this, but he's done a much better job hitting the notes I was originally looking for in his opening posts. his thoughts on the recent situation re: Gnomeo/Cheetory also lined up with mine fairly well, which is a bonus.

notsci alluded to me being able to read him earlier. I thought 299/subsequent posts were town, but I'm conflicted on if notsci would think to fake something like that at the point where he did. besides that, I don't remember anything he did so far standing out as particularly town.

RC might actually be town? I'm going to defer judgement on this until I feel better bc the entire reasoning for this is his reach out to me and I don't think I'm stable enough right now to read something like that objectively without getting emotional about it. either way he is one of the people I want to reread in-depth bc I haven't looked at most of his recent posts in full yet.

there are a lot of things I want to hammer out via interactions, but that won't happen tonight. I do want to say

@Tammy:

do you remember Generic in Tales? I'm aware it's kinda unfair for me to bring this up when I haven't explained in full why I disagree with how you're interpreting Gnomeo's read on you yet, but I don't think his reaction was unreasonable - I think he just isn't familiar with how you tend to play.

[pieguyn]

Also, you do realize that generic was playing as an alt who was claiming to be unfamiliar with me or the way I played when we had played several games together and knew very well how I played.

iirc he said he played on an alt specifically so he could read people/have people read him without relying on meta. so I'm assuming that he was under the impression he actually would have been reading your posts that way if he wasn't familiar with how you play.

I think most of what you're saying is a correct explanation of why his read on you is wrong. I just think in this case it happened bc he didn't think through the read all the way and is too stubborn to let up on it until he's absolutely sure he's on the wrong track (rather than him being scum forcing a read). what in particular did you want me to comment on?

[pieguyn]

You are claiming not to townread Nacho, but still you're townreading RC because Nacho feels good about him. That does not make sense. You still haven't explained this.

You have claimed not townreading him earlier. which is it?

this is the essence of where Gnomeo's scum read on Tammy came from. I disagree with both of these points, but I think both of them are entirely reasonable. the first one essentially amounts to a playstyle difference: he doesn't see why someone would sheep someone else's read unless they were town reading them. I buy that he thought Tammy was just "following" Nacho's read (the post this came from was 176, and I think it's a reasonable interpretation of it keeping in mind he missed 148), and from there, it makes sense he would assume she was town reading Nacho.

I think a lot of his posts make a lot more sense with this in mind. the logic he's pushing is consistent. there was nothing town in Nacho's opening posts - and if he thought Tammy was attempting to manipulate Nacho, it would have been correct to call bullshit on what he perceived as Tammy town reading him.

the second one I think in particular explains a lot of why he wasn't interested in people with meta experience with Tammy telling him he was wrong. he thinks he caught Tammy BS'ing a read on Nacho in order to manipulate him, which would be a strong point if it was correct. thus, he doesn't want to drop it unless he's sure that's not what she's doing. he doesn't care about people's meta experience with Tammy because it's entirely unrelated to what his point actually was (that Tammy had town read Nacho before it would have made any sense to). keeping this in mind, I don't *really* mind his attitude here - it comes off similarly to, for instance, someone getting pissed off on principle because someone else stepped into their line of questioning, which is a perfectly fine attitude to have. it might make sense as scum stretching to justify a fake read, but I don't think by any means it's explicitly *more* likely to come from scum.

in general, I think most of the reasoning he's pushing here happened as a result of him misunderstanding Tammy's posts as opposed to any scum-motivated reason.

awww. Here I was thinking we were having a conversation.

I liked this. it reads like town indignated that people are handwaving his thoughts re: Tammy, which fits with him not liking people stepping into his line of questioning.

I'm starting to feel better about you now that you're actually trying to talk to me. I have skipped some posts because I've seen you all discussing games I was not a part of and I have no idea what to make of that. Your next post is what I was looking for after my first post. Unfortunately it took 15 pages and multiple people questioning me to get an answer. I don't really see why, to be honest. What should have happened is me questioning something that stuck out, you answering and me considering if I'm satisfied with that answer or not.

this came after I first started saying Gnomeo's posts were town, but I also liked this. at this point, it was pretty obvious the entire shitstorm that happened was due to a misunderstanding (Tammy sheeping Nacho's RC read vs. her balancing it out with her own read). this is the correct reaction: step back and reevaluate. I don't get the impression he was pushing this based on convenience; if it was, I think he would have been more likely to back off when he started getting blowback for it or continue pushing it anyway.

[pieguyn]

Let’s talk at people about this instead of asking me about it weeeeeeee.

these kind of posts bug the hell out of me bc from what I remember Cheetory is more than capable of providing thoughts from the outside without having to engage with anyone - iirc this is what he did the majority of the mini normal we had together where I was scum. the way he keeps bringing this up feels like he's using it as a throwaway excuse to push people - it's not something that's explicitly scummy. while I believe he doesn't like people talking past him regardless of alignment, I think his focus on it here is entirely out of place.

Yeah well, I don't like that you're not probing me on the details of this stuff, and are instead just kind of throwing it out there. So I guess we’re even

When you scumread Empire/Zar/Espe in S&V it felt like, to me, that you were asking them questions to try and put them down if they were scum, where here you're just kind of throwing stuff out there and saying it feels off without having done anything about it.

Like. To me, it seems a lot like you're trying to set up a scumread on me so you have options, rather than actually trying to figure me out and all of this "these things make me feel weird but Iunno" feels like a weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing around while you're not even really trying to engage me on things. Are you just kind of hoping I'll sort myself out? Because this passive scumhunting feels off, especially since I have already poked at you and in response you've just kind of flopped semi-angrily at me.

I hated this bc it felt entirely arbitrary. his angle here is that Tammy is scum because ... she's laying out thoughts in her posts as opposed to specifically engaging people about them? why is her not engaging indicative of her not trying to figure him out when it's pretty fucking obvious she's at the very least reading and analyzing his posts? it makes no sense to try and push that engagement is necessary for forming reads, and I think he'd know this.

the other thing I'm wondering is that, if he actually thought this, why he's not questioning me for the same thing. I haven't directly engaged with anyone at all this game, yet he doesn't seem to have any problem attempting to read me based entirely around the reasoning I'm pushing (253).

@Gnomeo

, do you intend on being stubborn every time someone tries to reach out/pull apart your scumread on Tammy by just asking them why they're doing it?
Why is Tammy buddying Nacho and not scum trying to emulate a very distinctive manner in which she tends to open her towngames? What does she have to gain by being so overt if that's her goal in the former situation?

I didn't like this bc for one it came after 3 people pointed out the exact same thing. I think there is scum motivation here in that 1. he's getting a fuckton of blowback for the Tammy push and this allows him to posture to back off and push Gnomeo instead later if he wants; 2. Gnomeo was a main wagon at this point and it serves to push it from the sidelines without actually getting involved with it. the other thing is that these questions at the end are really soft. given what Gnomeo did so far, why would he expect him to be aware Tammy usually opens games in the way she did as town at the point where he asked the question? why *wouldn't* scum-Tammy buddy Nacho in the way she did here if she wanted to buddy Nacho? it reads like scum flow-going and throwing in a few extra questions in the end in order to appear like they're producing original content.

@Cheetory:

this was directed towards everyone, but I'd like if you could respond to/engage with me on this bc I'm aware you tend not to like people talking past you regardless of what your alignment is. I think that, if you're town here, you should stop focusing on stuff like that bc it reads more like you're using it as an easy excuse to push people than anything.

p-edit: I see your posts. response incoming.

[pieguyn]

What are your thoughts about RC?

I actually still haven't reread him. I'm willing to accept Nacho saying he'd have faked frustration differently if that's what he was going for, though. what are your thoughts?

I more or less agree with your thoughts about gnomeo's tammy case. And prior to reading his one theme game, I thought he's showing much more depth and development of his reads than he had in his earlier game. hoh is sort of an enigma in his meta.

I agree with this in terms of him showing depth in his read here.

[pieguyn]

I actually don't make anything out of Anen saying I'm "shadowing" the wagon on him and then leaving me off the list of people shadowing his wagon anyway. it's equally as likely, for instance, that he just forgot about me when he made that list. however, I don't think anything he's done has been remotely town.

I agree with just about everything Wicked has been posting recently. 446 in particular nailed a lot of the problems I had with Nacho's posts at the start of the game.

[pieguyn]

also I want notsci to get the hell in here and start towning up bc, while I think he *might* be town, I don't feel anywhere near as strongly about it as I usually do with him. as I said, I liked 299, but that's basically it.

[pieguyn]

Re RC I'm leaning town. It's not a strong lean and I'd like to see more discussion from him.

I'm not picking up a lot of scum vibes in this game. :/

what's making you lean town on him?

[pieguyn]

experiential meta. I've played against scum-RC a couple times, and town RC once. This doesn't feel like his scum games. he plays a very assured and town-looking game as scum.

I'm cautious and I want to keep reevaluating but so far I feel like he's town here.

link me the scum games you're comparing it to?

[pieguyn]

Idk. I read Cheeto as town. I think his talking about himself is very genuine, and some of the points that have been criticized for inconsistency (like Wicked criticizing the "i want to scream right now" line) felt very consistent to me. He said he was going to try to be patient at the beginning of the post, wrote a giant-ass post, then posted another post 25 minutes later. That feels consistent.

The way he's talking about how he's going to towntell while taking ownership of the fact that he's being read as scummy reads to me as being genuine. I don't think he's scum.

I don't agree with this. I think it's likely he would start playing like this regardless of what his alignment here is: town-him would realize he's having an off game and step back, scum-him would see a bunch of people pushing him and go into damage control mode. taking ownership of the fact you're being read as scummy is a really easy thing to fake.

[pieguyn]

I considered voting Cheetory but I kind of want to give him at least some room to get back into the game if he's town here. I think if he's town, I'll be able to figure it out once he catches up - and I'd explicitly prefer to see him catch up on his own accord as opposed to influencing it by voting him.

also, I don't *really* have any problem with RC's posts outside of the initial issue re: notsci (which I'm willing to drop given Nacho is saying it's not a scum tell for him). will probably look through his scum games tonight.

[pieguyn]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=35056 - I feel this one maps very nicely to what he's said about his scum game.

I'm reading through this one and I definitely agree it doesn't look similar to here. it felt like he had a really clear direction in his scum game here - he came in and formed a bunch of solid/well-reasoned reads and started pushing them immediately. it also felt like he remained relatively consistent in his reads in that he stuck to them/pushed them hard and only backed off when he had a really good reason for it.

I thought the last part of 360 stood out when I first read it bc of the large number of town reads he threw out (part of me wanted to call it town but it was mostly gut as opposed to anything substantive). I think if you take the meta into account this in particular is a huge contrast to how he played as scum bc it really doesn't look like he's trying to push an agenda here "these people are scum, lynch them" vs. "everyone in the game looks town and none of my scum reads are that strong". looking through the rest of the post, it feels like he's focusing a lot less on pushing his scum reads and more on the rest of the game, which would also fit with not having a clear direction to push.

I usually tend to worry about putting too much stock into meta like this on the off chance he's able to deliberately manipulate it, but either way, I think I'm seeing the same thing you are here.

[pieguyn]

Then who are you going to push in the interim? Do you really think that you not voting him is going to make a significant difference in the pressure he feels or that Cheetory-town can't properly do his thing under pressure?

there's nothing more annoying (at least for me) than being behind, having a wagon/votes on you as a result of not being caught up fully, and feeling like you have to derail it as a result instead of feeling like you're free to do whatever you want

see: me at the start of Forest Fire. I'm pretty sure you can agree it's a hell of a lot more difficult to read someone who is distracted with other shit instead of forming reads naturally and I'd rather not risk having a chance of something like that happening if I can help it (Tammy didn't really read me until D2, you flipped out on me that one point on D1 even when you realized the way I played it wouldn't have came from scum, etc.).

Also, what did you think about this post?

it likely happened bc he incorrectly town read me in The Burning for making logical posts. I don't find it telling either way.

[pieguyn]

I do intend to actually start pushing things, but I have a tendency to struggle if I don't respond to things before trying to focus on reading things.

this is the kind of thing I'm referring to when I say I want to at least give him some grace period to get invested in the game, btw

[pieguyn]

I want to start with Anen and my vote will likely go there pending what he does when gets back.

[pieguyn]

Town

Wickedestjr
Implosion
Vinkah

Kinda Town

RedCoyote (paranoia keeps him out of the top list)
Cheetory
Tammy

Maybe Town (Null)

Nacho (stubborn paranoia keeps him here right now, though I like his posts and reads trajectories. Disagreed with his Cheetory push, but it impacted my cheetory read anyway. :/)
notsci (faded read)
Layla (faded read)
Gnomeo (I feel like he's too brief and abrupt on some level which makes him hard to read. If he's town he's processing the game so differently from me that I doubt I'll be able to understand him)

Not So Town

Anen - flaily feeling before he went on v/la. Didn't come back when he said he would, except to say "later".

i still haven't read everything i missed bc preparing a house to move sucks, but this reads list makes me sad.

[pieguyn]

I made a huge fucking deal about her rate at reading me in that mini that just finished and pie's not sure I'd think to fake that as scum? Really? That looks forced as hell and is bugging the everliving shit out of me

suppose you *did* make a post like that as scum and then I come in with a correct scum read on you (which I would assume you'd be expecting to happen). what do you think happens then?

[pieguyn]

I don't like where Anen's attitude is coming from if he's town here. I think I've made it pretty obvious I at least want to see what he does when he gets back first before definitively calling him scum, and other ppl have said something similar (ex. ffery said he "had enough votes on him already"). so I don't get where him continuing to shut down and resign himself to "meh, everyone is just going to call everything I do scummy" is coming from.

I'm not *really* sure if it's scummy bc I've seen this kind of attitude coming from town a fair amount, but the more he pulls this the more I'm seeing it as a crutch to avoid having to generate content bc I'm definitely not the only person who said in the game thread I wanted to give him room to catch up in the game and I'm pretty sure I've been saying as much for a while now.

my initial thought when reading the rest of his post is that it looked like scum trying to get town read by taking unlikely stances (both ffery/Tammy as scum); I think there is scum motivation in his reads here in that despite pushing ffery against the entire game reading her as town he leaves the option open to join the Cheetory push later if he doesn't get anywhere. this is even more so the case if he had supposedly been deliberately been doing the same thing he did in the last game he had with ffery in order to reaction test her (why give up if you supposedly have a lead you've been working on?).

[pieguyn]

also can we please not lynch Gnomeo

[pieguyn]

Tonally I'm getting occasional tiny overwhelmed-town flickers from his flailyness.

I don't really get the same sense off of it. plus in this situation I would expect he'd be at least somewhat overwhelmed regardless of what his alignment actually is (town-him can't get engaged in the game, scum-him has no idea what to do to look adequately town/fight his lynch). do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

...he's not even being voted now? :/

yeah, but ffery/Tammy were talking about wagoning him earlier.

[pieguyn]

I will say I will be pretty pissed off if it turns out this game is multiball. also I don't really have a problem with Layla not doing anything recently given she said she was busy. I would like to see what she does when she gets back though bc I have town reads on the majority of the other players and she could easily be scum via POE.

I kind of just want to hammer.

[pieguyn]

also also I disagree with the first point in Cheetory's 559 being an exaggeration. the logic there is correct. Anen was wrong to push implosion vote on him as an "OMGUS" if it was done entirely bc he had pushed him first (as opposed to having reason to specifically think implosion's vote on him was disingenuous), and even then he outright admitted it wasn't a strong point.

[pieguyn]

Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed. That fits into my worldview better and maybe keeps me from looking at the game squinty eyed where I'm likely to jump at every shadow like a tweaked out meth addict.

Sk pretending to be vig works too.

^i'm operating under the assumption this is what happened

[pieguyn]

I'm actually pretty fucking concerned about notsci at this point. I also feel kinda sorta better about Cheetory's posts right at the end yesterday.

more on this when it's not 5 AM

[pieguyn]

That's nice, I'm still town, and I will still point back to earlier.

So.

what happened to your read on me from earlier? also, what do you make of the exchange between ffery/me starting from 458?

[pieguyn]

-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:

If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.

feels like setup for a known mislynch.

I don't think the first thing is something that's particularly scummy. it's as likely that he just didn't feel that strongly that Anen was scum and I didn't think it came off disingenuous. plus, I think (especially given what ffery brought up re: his meta earlier) he sure as hell could have acted more confident if he is actually scum here.

neither is the second thing. I'm seeing it as him having his own scum reads, but being willing to factor into account people's interactions with the Anen wagon if he flipped town here. I don't see what you think is weird about it.

I don't see how he's doing what you're saying he's doing re: the third point. the logic there makes sense: he doesn't see any better viable options and does not want to go around scrambling to find another lynch when he doesn't see a reason to. why do you think he wouldn't have said it as town?

also I'd be interested in hearing your response to my question to notsci in the previous post.

[pieguyn]

i'll be around later

[pieguyn]

pieguy what's your nacho read?

town

his end-of-D1 posting was solid enough that I don't have any problem with him. there was also his reaction to the Gnomeo v. Tammy situation that happened earlier, which I thought looked town in that he picked up on what I was seeing re: Gnomeo before I said it in the game thread.

I don't mind the fact that he left his vote on Anen at D1 end, either; I think just about nothing can beat him promising to catch up and hammer Lia in Over the Garden Wall and then blatantly not having a chance to do it before the deadline hit. and it didn't look like scum leaving a vote on a wagon while trying to push elsewhere; he was pretty clearly attempting to refine the read and he had no other scum reads he was attempting to push. the logic there is consistent.

I'm considering following you onto Boon. do you make anything of Cheetory's posts towards Anen at D1 end?

[pieguyn]

I’m not one to look at a player’s reads just because they’re confirmed town. I read everything that everyone says and seek help sometimes (case in point my question towards Tammy), but for the most part I develop my reads independently… Perhaps this is just a play style difference, but I'm having trouble understanding it.

well yeah, but it's still fairly standard for someone to at the least look at it when someone points out what they think about their wagon.

RC: I have scum reads on x, y, z for *these reasons*.
Anen: once I get lynched, look at players a and b for *reasons related to my wagon*.
RC: if Anen flips town, it might be worth looking at a and b sometime later for the reasons he pointed out.

I don't see how this is a big deal in any way whatsoever. do you disagree?

I’ve never seen an RC-scum game before. My experience with RC is swag town where I correctly strong-town read him from the start. I’ve heard a few people say that he has a strong scum game and I’m usually very cautious in reading players like that, but I still got strong town vibes from him there. For whatever reason, his posting here doesn’t give me that equally strong feeling of genuineness. I should check those scum games that ffery posted…

you probably should. it's fairly different to his play here.

[pieguyn]

lol S-S

[pieguyn]

I don't know what to make of cheetory's posts toward Anen. It felt like he grabbed hold of that example game where Anen was town and I saw it immediately when I replaced in for more than it was worth, especially given the various comments about Anen having a good scum game. Was disappointed cheetory replaced out because I was hoping to get a better grip today. TAmmy's comments about we the purple combined with not liking Boonskies' entrance pushed me into voting there.

I kind of thought Cheetory's posts at the end were town bc I saw where he was coming from with his lines of questioning. I agreed Anen doing nothing but making posts about his wagon would have been an easily fakeable strategy to employ as scum, and I liked the way he was specifically pushing him to answer the questions he had asked him before. it read like he was trying to get Anen to generate legitimate content that would be more difficult to fake as scum. the point about how he played in the game with you I don't make as much out of; I think his point there was that he as town should see that his play was different rather than calling you scum for saying it was different, not explicitly that he was scum for playing differently.

Boon's entrance was what pinged for me too. I didn't like that he walked in here with only the one read on Wicked and didn't lay out any other reads, and it didn't feel like he was actually trying to give a good explanation for said Wicked read. I want him to get in here and explain specifically what he's talking about there.

[pieguyn]

@pieguyn-

I had issue with that part for the same reason that I found the third part scummy. It just felt like preparation for the criticism that a known mislynch might provoke. It allows him to defend today with, "well we were wrong, but at least we can look at his reads from yesterday" if he needs to. It's certainly possible that I'm just pursuing insignificant play style differences, but the wording of his hammer post made me feel like he was worried about catching flak for it...

ehhh

I don't really agree this as big a deal as you think it is; as I said before, I would expect taking Anen's reads at the end into account would be a fairly standard thing. I think we're disagreeing on this in principle, though.

[pieguyn]

refining reads, isn't really the right word for what I feel is missing. I can think of several examples where she's done that. It just feels like none of the refinement is pushing in the direction of scumreading.

I don't really have anything for scum reads. this is definitely a "too many town reads" type of game.

[pieguyn]

ohey I have a read.

vote: Boon

you're following the game enough to be aware on the wagon on S-S popping up, yet you don't respond to everyone asking you for your other reads besides Wicked? hand 'em over. cos this doesn't feel like you've actually read the game or are actually trying to sort through it; it feels like you're posturing more out of convenience here.

[pieguyn]

also I don't think this S-S push is particularly well-reasoned and I haven't actually minded what he's posted so far (see: Boon point); want to see what he does once he's caught up first before considering voting there.

[pieguyn]

How big a deal did I say it was?

Honestly, it's not the kind of thing that I see much of IME. And even for someone that does like taking the dead guy's contributions into account, I don't see why it's necessary to express that intention before seeing the flip, because it's completely irrelevant if the flip is scum (which he saw as a decent possibility).

it isn't something you see much of. it *is* something that (in my opinion at least) people should do more often bc no one ever does it and people who get lynched often have valid reads. I also don't think it's him explicitly "I'll take Anen's reads into account", I think it's "I'll cross-reference these reads later and see if they make sense or not" - which is a lot more reasonable and something you would say even if you thought Anen was more likely scum (if he's scum you just don't bother).

it was one of your reasons for voting him, so I'm assuming you considered it important enough to vote over. either way, I don't see the problem here.

[pieguyn]

I saw the vote count, LL. I'm not caught up. I didn't recognize that avatar, and of course it's pie. Haha. Nah, I'd vote me too this game. I haven't done crap.

didn't you say you were? >.>

either way, when you catch up, I'd like a more in-depth explanation of the Wicked read.

[pieguyn]

I thought I posted this but

I echo this sentiment re pie

oh bullshit

YOU of all people should be aware of why I'm not as able to put as much effort into this specific game as I usually do. it makes some sense coming from ffery, but from you, fucking really? you know damn well where most of my engagement on-site has been recently and that you'd ignore that and push me anyway sets of all kinds of alarm bells and makes me think this is just you testing the waters to see if I'm actually lynchable here. I would also expect you should be aware that I sure as hell would be able to bullshit a push on someone if I actually was scum (as one example: what we did to MS D1 of Over the Garden Wall) especially given how I've always talked about how I've got a lot better about faking conviction recently.

I also absolutely refuse to believe you would post something like this without any engagement with me or attempt to sort me at all in the rest of the game. if you were worried about me, why wouldn't you, you know, actually *ask* me about what my reads were or why I wouldn't push anyone? this is even more so the case when you're supposedly in the exact same position as I am (your latest reads post had 4 town reads, one of whom you're now calling scum, and no scum reads).

you have one chance to rectify this. talk to me about what, specifically, you've wanted to see from me that you haven't been seeing.

What does knowing some of your reads are wrong do to your feel of the gamestate?

I'm pretty sure all of {you, Wicked, Nacho, RC, Tammy} are town, but I'm worried bc I don't really have any strong scum reads whatsoever. the only thing I've really thought was scummy recently was Boon's entrance (and notsci's post) and even then 1. he apparently wasn't caught up (I was working under the assumption he was), 2. I'd like to see more from him when he *does* catch up before I make a definite judgement there.

essentially, I am attempting to counter-balance it by being more strict with town reads.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: S-S

Who takes a post like that on blind faith?

Like, wouldn't that be setting off alarms?

I'm reading this again and I actually really hate this reasoning. why do you think, for instance, scum S-S *wouldn't* think to double check what you said first? I'm pretty fucking sure this is the kind of thing most scum would stop to think about (Ank from H+1); on the other hand, I *can* potentially see it from town who hasn't seen any need to read anything. I don't think it's a strong tell but either way you have it entirely backwards.

I'd also like to know how what happened to your town read on Layla from earlier.

[pieguyn]

I might not be back until later, but one more thing real quick before I go. ffery, what do you think about Wicked?

[pieguyn]

@pie if you are looking for possible scum on my wagon i dont think its notsci. id go with one of the people who actually perpetuated the faulty reasoning... rather than notsci who has seen the forced elements of my posting.

i want notsci to answer my question first

mostly out of curiosity, is this you saying you were deliberately forcing it in order to get reactions?

[pieguyn]

my issue with Wicked is that, while a lot of things he's posted have *looked* town, I don't think any of it was particularly unfakeable. with, for example, ffery, or Nacho, there is stuff I can point to and say "yeah this definitely doesn't look like scum" - that is, stuff that I'd consider near-100% tells towards them being town; with Wicked, there are none

the towniest thing he's done in my eyes is looking through Cheetory's meta D1 and backing off his initial push on him as a result, but if it really came down to it I think he would have been capable of faking that

I'm not sure if I'm just reading way too much into it here, but either way, I'd like if someone who's town reading him could walk me through it.

in other news re: S-S wagon, I don't like implosion's 858, namely him calling attention to the fact that "several people have agreed you might be scum". I think scum are more likely to use stuff like that in order to discredit people than town are to think about it for legitimate reasons. the point about him backing up Wicked's point when it wasn't particularly good is also a good one.

[pieguyn]

i'm about to pass out any second now. i'll be around tomorrow

[pieguyn]

I'm for the most part caught up. where I'm currently at: notsci's response to me reminds me of what people like Sakura do as scum. jt read like he had no idea what to say in order to respond, so he just made something up. I don't really know if he's scum for it, but I don't think it was in any way a town response.

S-S might be town.

also, I was thinking about Cheetory's play in We the Purple earlier, but I wasn't thinking about how he treated Tammy that game. the primary thing I remember from that game, mostly because of how dumb/semantic it was, was how he treated Generic. he kept calling Generic scum for shit like "appealing to the crowd" (I don't remember the exact phrasing but it was something equally dumb where it was essentially Generic laying out arguments not directed to anyone as opposed to specifically interacting with one person at a time) when it was really obviously a playstyle issue and it was Generic's way of attempting to convince people to vote along with him. I went back to look at his interaction with Tammy again (namely 356) and I *really* think it looks similar to there. some of the arguments he's pushing are literally the same arguments in terms of him nitpicking that she was "throwing it out there" instead of "probing him" over it.

I think it would make sense he'd get frustrated at that alignment regardless, but I think it's the kind of thing where people have to do it a lot/on a consistent basis in order to have any effect on anyone. I think the way he focused on it here looked really unnatural.

[pieguyn]

I've liked wicked's play for the most part. first game with him and I will probably meta him before or during the weekend. I thought day 1 was quite solid and of the players I don't know well, he was my strongest town read.

can you walk me through this in more detail?

[pieguyn]

what do you think about implosion?

[pieguyn]

vote: implosion

[pieguyn]

not really (see: my recent post re: Cheet). Boon himself is also problematic because he's doing fucking nothing outside of "Wicked is scum", but I at least wanna wait to see what he does when he catches up before making any further judgement on it.

[pieguyn]

pie... why did you decide to vote implo at this moment?

I'm waiting on Boon to actually do shit. I'm waiting on notsci to get in here and hopefully do more shit than he's been doing up to this point, since while I think he could easily be scum based on what he's posted I know he's capable of town telling really hard given enough time to do shit (and, conversely, I'm fairly sure once he starts generating more content it'll be easier for me to figure it out if he is scum here). I think implo is most likely scum for the time being. do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

the thing is, I don't think boonskiies is going to catch up.

do you mean to say you think he's scum stalling out content, or just that he's going to play the game without catching up?

if it's the former, I'm giving him probably until there's a few RL days left in the game day to provide content (regardless of if he forms other reads based on interactions or reads the game), but would be more than fine voting him again if need be

[pieguyn]

I'm declaring right now that if he *doesn't* play the game my vote is going right back on his ass when today ends. so we won't have to worry about that

he didn't do this in any of the 3 games (2 scum, 1 town) I had with him either.

[pieguyn]

So I made up something to say I didn't make something up?

no, I'm saying that you wanted to make something up, had no idea what, so decided to say you didn't have anything and hoped no one would question it

I think that, if you had an issue with my play, you should have been able to give at least a *vague* explanation of what it was even if you had trouble explaining it. either way, I want you to start actually doing shit that isn't just making vague comments on people with no real reasoning backing any of it up.

[pieguyn]

You and me both.

yeah, about that:

I haven't been *as* engaged as I usually am, nor have I done much in the way of directly interacting with anyone, but I don't think I haven't provided reads or reasoning behind them while I *have* been here. I'm also pretty fucking sure I've explained most of my relevant stances or at least laid out reasoning behind it (you, Cheet, implo, Wicked, among others). meanwhile, you're giving reads here and there, but not explaining any of them. the entire point is that this is a way I could easily see you playing regardless of alignment and I would like if you could be a hell of a lot more transparent as to why you're taking most of the stances you are.

either way, I don't think my play here fits the description I've assigned to your play here, and the way you're asserting as much reads more like you're trying to discredit as opposed to actually believing this.

if you wanted to know more about any of my reads, why didn't you just ... ask?

[pieguyn]

Can we wagon Nacho or RC or something

why on both

[pieguyn]

because I didn't like everyone shunting the early RC thing and I keep forgetting nacho's in this game and that bothers me in terms of his alignment

you're aware Nacho is V/LA and hasn't had a chance to catch up since then, correct? I don't think this is half a big a deal as you (or people like Wicked) think it is.

what are your thoughts on Boon and implo?

[pieguyn]

I think my reads at the moment look something like this.

Town: ffery; vinkah; tammy.
Also town, but somewhat less strong: wicked; nacho; cheeto; redcoyote.
Not quite as strong a townread as the previous category but I don't really want to put him in the next category: gnomeo.
Either never was town or not as strong as before: layla; anen; pie; notscience. Although I might be able to be convinced to put pie in a category higher. Maybe.

I've been spiraling into a lurking spree. I do still want an anen lynch. The lack of a counterwagon is just indicative of how indecisive this town is; no one seems to have a lasting scumread that garners significant attention to the point where it becomes a long-lasting wagon. This is further impacted by the lurking question marks of Layla and notscience.

why the fuck would you shoot Gnomeo if you weren't POE'ing him as scum? or did your reads change sometime after that and I just missed it?

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty fucking sure that's an SK shot. in addition to ^that, Gnomeo was (I think?) one of the only people suspecting implo at that point in the game. the point ffery brought up about him shifting along with wherever the momentum is going also makes sense from an SK POV in that he's playing primarily for survival and attempting to float through the game.

I'm half posting in-the-moment half responding to things as I read them, but we're lynching this today.

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty sure it is. I at least remember implo was Gnomeo's backup scum read after Tammy.

[pieguyn]

I agree that she's playing an uncharacteristically weak game here if town. I think this is probably the place where I'd most like to put my vote at this very moment, but won't just to freak out Wicked.

I'm going to be blunt: No.

You yourself said (1181) it was hard to get strong reads in this game. You also said you were giving ffery a pass for what looked like "slow playing" *because* of how hard it was to get strong reads in this game. So, why is it such a problem that ... surprise ... I don't have any strong scum reads? Just because I'm not death tunneling someone or making any particularly strong push anywhere doesn't mean I'm not forming reads or that I don't have reads. It means that I don't see a reason to walk around acting like I've solved the game when ... I haven't. (This idea people have of my play, btw, is part of why I wanted to play a scum game like S&S2 for a while before actually being able to accomplish it; the assessment people seem to have that I hard push reads as town and aren't capable of it as scum is entirely wrong and used to interfere with my town play because people would, and still do to some extent, assume I was scum if I wasn't deathtunneling anyone.)

This is ignoring the fact that this isn't strictly true, either. I've laid out my town reads in the game thread already, and I feel pretty sure all of them are town. And I think that if you sit down and actually look what I've posted instead of attempting to read my tone, you'd see I'm pretty clearly exploring possibilities for scum outside of said town reads, even if until now I didn't have particularly strong conviction anyone was scum.

There's also the fact that, outside of you apparently thinking I'm scum, the people I *am* POE'ing as scum are the same as yours. Why is it that I'm supposedly playing such an "uncharacteristically weak" game here if I'm in the same fucking position you are? I don't understand at all how you can have the exact same reads I have and then claim that I'm not playing well for ... reasons.

The point I brought up to notsci is also perfectly valid one. I would sure as hell be able to bullshit a push on someone if I was actually scum here. But you seem to be handwave dismissing that in order to push that me not feeling strongly about any of my scum reads = me being scum. Do you think I *couldn't* push anyone if I was scum here?

In short, you applying this double standard to me and only me is fucking awful and makes me want to question my town read on you here. I would like if you could actually, you know, engage me on this because your reasoning here is *seriously* misguided at best.

[pieguyn]

Things like this are townier than not because they defy meta expectations in a way that both feels genuine and also feels unlikely to be coming from notscience as scum. Leaving an avenue for pie to push him and not get scum read for it makes pie pushing him easier, and he's shown that the whole 1v1 for a misread is both believable and fakeable coming from him as scum.

I can see this if I squint (and this is part of why I had a town read on him back on D1), but I think if it really came down to it he'd be capable of faking that. This is even more so the case when he's now retracted it (that is it could just as easily be him attempting to fake conviction there).

[pieguyn]

it's kind of moot now, but I think the S-S wagon is/was pretty shit - the only reasoning I remember actually reading for it was what notsci was posting about his attitude. I think that's more a playstyle issue than anything scummy, and outside of that, I haven't minded S-S' posts.

I think Tammy asked me what I thought about her point re: Cheet. I think it's a fair point bc, from what I remember, Tammy's play D1 looked similar to how she played for most of the duration of WTP in that she didn't directly engage with anyone. Cheet should, theoretically, have seen her play there and noticed that the way she was playing here wasn't unreasonable for her.

[pieguyn]

hey nachoooooo

no response to 1328?

[pieguyn]

as far as implo goes. im not sure...

there are def a ton of things that dont look quite right there... but it just occured to me that, even with claiming a 2-shot... that gives him until day 4 to likely be confirmed as serial killer with multideath nights.

I'm not sure I'm getting what your point here is, but I'm against any form of "testing to see if a kill happens" purely on principle. there is also that, if, for instance, we're in 9-3-1 and 2 kills *do* happen, we're essentially entirely fucked bc that would put it at 4-3-1 tomorrow which is almost impossible to win if the SK has any form of bulletproof.

I also entirely disagree that claiming something like bulletproof would suffice for a potential implo-SK in this situation. that's an entirely null claim and so it would do absolutely nothing to allow him to escape the lynch; I'm fairly sure it makes the most sense for implo-SK to claim vig unless he wanted to fake another PR (or if he wanted to fight the lynch off and claim VT, but I don't think he would have thought he'd be able to do that).

either way, implo is the correct lynch today if we agree he's more likely SK than vig.

[pieguyn]

also I have no fucking idea what is supposedly so town about Boon's recent posts (

@NACHO

). I think the way he's playing this is entirely dead null. I might be giving him way too much credit though given TM where I thought he'd go out of his way to massively abuse his scum meta and it turned out he was just town and not playing the same way bc he wasn't scum.

*if* we don't want to lynch implo or Boon, I (unfortunately) think notsci is the best chance at hitting scum. I don't particularly want to wagon RC.

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty sure SK attempts to shoot town if we lynch town today? it's usually better to reduce town as fast as possible (and it's what I would do if I was SK in that situation, especially if I had any form of bulletproof).

there is also that eliminating SK from the game *now* ensures in the worst case scenario we at least get one more mislynch to play with

I might be getting this backwards, though.

[pieguyn]

Pie - Did you stop believing that you can leash SKs?

in a large game, hell yes

in a mini game, hell no - there is not enough room for error to be able to leash one and not risk having it come back to bite you in the ass (ex: I've seen a fair amount of 9-3-1 setups that have been fucked because town mislynched D1 and no crosskills happened). I probably would have considered it if it was D1, though. in either case, I would want to lynch it before expected LYLO, which worst-case scenario would be today anyway.

[pieguyn]

vote: Boon

[pieguyn]

k

we're lynching Boon today

[pieguyn]

ftr this is the third time I can think of this game that notsci has walked in here and blatantly postured to join the leading wagon.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

[pieguyn]

remind me who you want to lynch again

[pieguyn]

I think that I mentioned that your play this game was pretty understandable based on the game state, but I don't think it's weird for me to express flashes of paranoia on you based on your play being lacking even if it's understandable; it's not like I'm launching into a huge push on you for not matching a pattern or anything along those lines.

I don't actually remember you saying this (and couldn't find it after looking through your ISO again). link?

"Uncharacteristically weak" for you refers to more your ability to be correctly read as town by most of the playerlist through your thought processes, not through your reads. I am very rarely a universal townread in games here unless something really weird happens but for you it's more strange for you not to be a universal townread by late day 1. Do you disagree?

it's true that I tend to get consensus town read a lot, but I think there are more games than you think there are where I'm widely suspected or at the very least not consensus town read. as just the most recent example, I was hardly a "consensus town read" in Forest Fire until D2 happened and I had more of a chance to get invested in the game.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this bc I don't think it's correct to judge me based on "how town read I am" as opposed to looking at what I've actually done in the game and I'm not sure where you would have got that impression. either way, it's a moot point now.

[pieguyn]

o god, I just now got what you meant with first post.

<.<

>.>

[pieguyn]

^awful posts

I think it's pretty fucking obvious Boon is my top scum read and he's my second scum read.

[pieguyn]

Are you going to deflect by calling it awful too?

Or just do that to this post?

lol

the reason your post was awful is that you're greatly oversimplifying the logic in a way that fails to take into account motivation. I've outright said in the game thread already you'd be my second choice for lynch after Boon, and I think, entirely objectively, I've clearly had posts where I've questioned you or brought up that I think you're scum (I don't see how you can look at posts like 902, for instance, and try to claim I'm not attempting to "push" you. I also don't see how you can read 1399 and claim I'm "still giving you space").

what you're saying here essentially amounts to me being scum because I'm not voting you. and the only reason I'm not voting you is because ... surprise ... I would rather lynch Boon. and rather than acknowledging that, you're trying to attribute it to ... ~magical cosmic reasons~ ... that don't actually make any sense. in the first place, if I wanted to leave you until LYLO, I wouldn't fucking put you as my backup scum read, I would be all over your wagon trying to get people off it until the game actually reached LYLO - but regardless, it's hardly ever worth it to deliberately pass up a mislynch, and "leaving someone alive until LYLO" is a poor justification for doing so.

what, exactly, am I missing here?

Why would he play this way as scum, though? He's been pretty blatant about it.

Do you think he's aware that he's doing it? Do you think it surprises him that he's being questioned for it?

I don't think he thought he was being as blatant about it as he actually was being. I think he thought he could pass it off like he was overly disengaged with the game and hope no one questioned him over it as a result.

[pieguyn]

vote: notscience

I've been busy as shit recently bc moving sucks. I still don't want to lynch RC and I think notsci is the best chance at hitting scum at this point.

I'm about to pass out any second now bc I had to wake up at 8 AM off of 2 hours of sleep, so I can't really do anything. I can't guarantee I'll be around before the deadline.

[pieguyn]

i'm here

[pieguyn]

I think RC claiming miller to "draw the night kill" is incredibly dumb, but he's probably town. let's go Boon.

[pieguyn]

vote: Boon

[pieguyn]

holy shit I cannot believe I actually made it back in time. I was certain I would wind up sleeping until like 1 AM or something like that bc that's what always happens when I pass out in the middle of the afternoon. -.-

p-edit: yeah, I meant him claiming "unspecified PR" when he was really just a miller. not claiming miller first post is fine, acting like you have an actual PR when you don't isn't. either way I can see why someone would at least think it made sense and it's probably a town role with a rolecop in the game anyway.

[pieguyn]

the fuck

[pieguyn]

massclaim

[pieguyn]

What was this in reference to?

primarily the notsci/Tammy shitstorm that was happening at the end in general. it wasn't specifically directed towards anything.

just in a sense of balance, the miller and rolecop together as town don't make sense (unless empire is fucking with us). i'm interested if tammy sneaked any results last Night. but if he is fucking with us, mafia is op and i don't know which is scarier.

where the hell did you get this from? I read (and am still reading) it as the opposite way: miller+rolecop would make sense bc rather than appearing as a false positive to the investigative role it appears as a clear.

[pieguyn]

I want more of a response to the end of the day than "the fuck"

I also am fine with a massclaim.

I hadn't read it in-depth when I posted that. sleep is a hell of a drug.

now that I have, I think your reasons for pushing her were, put bluntly, god-awful. I will comment more on this if it's still relevant after massclaim.

[pieguyn]

1) Okay, I now have no reservations. Pie is scum. The end of the day is the first time I've really been *into* the game. I can understand her misreading me throughout the rest of the game. Not then. That's bullshit. Especially when I KNOW she is big on actually reading the thread and understanding what is going on- if she was ACTUALLY town she would see Tammy's blowing what I say way out of proportion and me trying to explain that and work with her is something town-me would do. Also, this is me redacting my prior redaction that she needs to see some time in the limelight when I flip town.

LOL

vote: notscience

give me a second and i'll explain why you're spouting bullshit here

[pieguyn]

1) Okay, I now have no reservations. Pie is scum. The end of the day is the first time I've really been *into* the game. I can understand her misreading me throughout the rest of the game. Not then. That's bullshit. Especially when I KNOW she is big on actually reading the thread and understanding what is going on- if she was ACTUALLY town she would see Tammy's blowing what I say way out of proportion and me trying to explain that and work with her is something town-me would do. Also, this is me redacting my prior redaction that she needs to see some time in the limelight when I flip town.

First off, you know just as well as I do that you're more than capable of getting "into" games as scum and have demonstrated as much on several occasions (and have acknowledged as much *in this game*). So you trying to push that oh my god you're town and people should be able to see it after it is disingenuous as fuck.

Second, no, Tammy did not "blow what you say way out of proportion", and you pushing that she did reads like blatant manipulation. In the first place, you shouldn't have thought her being a non-factor in this game was a reason to be concerned about her here. And then when she asked you about it, you didn't answer it. But, regardless, her being concerned about you claiming she doesn't setup spec did not, in fact, have to do with how she plays on a general level. I think she was pretty obviously concerned because you had missed her setup spec'ing in this game, multiple times, since practically the very start of the game. The logic there is consistent; and even if you just happened to miss it, it is perfectly reasonable that someone would find that hard to believe.

I also refuse to believe you make 1839 after the whole claimgate after she got paranoid she'd get lynched. At that point, she was really fucking obviously town and I am 100% sure you should have been able to recognize it by then. You acting unsure about her, or like she could potentially be "scum manipulating her meta" entirely ignores everything about how it actually played out and it reads like you're blatantly acting here. The only reason she even brought it up was because YOU hadn't noticed where she had setup spec'd before; so claiming it could be her manipulating her meta after the fact is fucking awful. And if you *were* concerned that that was she was doing, why didn't you just ... ask her about it? I don't see you actually asking her anything to work out what your read on her actually is, and when she tried to ask you to elaborate on what was giving you reservations about her here, you kept ignoring it and saying stuff like "I'm not sure so I don't see why it's a big deal". And when she asked you why you thought she'd specifically go out of her way to tailor her meta to you as opposed to other people in the game, we got ... nothing. So how the hell were you trying to "work with her" here?

This is why I don't see a town approach in the way you played this. In fact, it read like you were specifically trying to find something to comment on in order to look like you had a point here.

What posts of notsci's are you talking about here?

I hated 1825/1842. If you're trying to work with someone, you don't fucking say something like "read the fucking game". I think he (who has had several games experience with Tammy) should know better than to say something like that there if he thought what was going on was her misinterpreting his posts.

I didn't like 1684 either. I might be reading too much into it, but I think town-notsci should have actually ... asked ... where Tammy had setup spec'd before after being told he was in fact wrong about it. It read overly superficial and I don't get the impression he actually wanted to sort her there; it read like he wasn't sure what to actually say so he tried to act sarcastic to cover it up (this is the kind of thing I alluded to earlier re: his response to me/how people like Sakura play as scum).

Plus I think in general he should have known better than to think Tammy could be scum here in the first place (1839, for reasons explained above).

[pieguyn]

vt

[pieguyn]

OHHH NOTSCI

you don't get to just handwave 1897. why was Tammy suupposedly "scum manipulating her meta" when the only reason she was making such a big deal over the setup spec was because *you missed it in the first place*, and how did you have her as anything but strong town when you made 1839?

you are also acting like 1462 doesn't exist and acting like you have a point there anyway. if you're going to blatantly lie, at least make it reasonable.

[pieguyn]

@Nacho/pie: is this an accurate description of how you think you'd have played this game if you'd rolled scum together?

probably, yeah.

[pieguyn]

It's also telling that pie is choosing to argue with me rather than try and sway tammy and ffery to follow her

Everybody should pay attention to how disingenuous this response from notsci is.

The only reason I haven't yet gone out of my way to convince anyone notsci was scum at this point was because the massclaim was still going on, which takes priority over everything else. This should objectively be really obvious - you don't fucking get distracted with other shit while a massclaim is going on. The only reason I even posted that last post re: him is because he's blatantly lying here.

It is also complete bullshit that he would push this at a point where he *knows* that my RL is extremely busy and thus knows that I've hardly had any chance to get into this thread and actually do shit today in the first place. He knows he's fucked if I get a push on him going and thus has to put all his effort into shutting it down before it even starts. That sums up the exchange.

[pieguyn]

ffery: do you/why do you disagree with my points in 1988?

[pieguyn]

Every time I try to read that post my head hurts. I'm going to try to break it down into small pieces, but may not do it tonight.

let me know if you want me to clarify anything. it was 5 AM when I wrote it -.-

essentially, with the first point, reread the end of D2 and pay attention to how, specifically, it played out in terms of Tammy's setup spec. it essentially went like this:

notsci: "I don't remember you setup spec'ing until now, so I don't see why I should read you as town for it."
Tammy: "wrong, I've been setup spec'ing since D1."
Tammy: *links where she was setup spec'ing on D1"
notsci: "it doesn't help your case, you could be scum manipulating your meta."

which is a disingenuous as fuck response and doesn't read like he actually wanted to sort her. the second point is just that town-notsci should have been able to see that Tammy was town here at the point where he made 1839.

[pieguyn]

I don't think the fourth piece of dialog there is what he was saying.

it is, though? he literally said this:

second off, if I'm not sure, you throwing things I used to read you in past games at me isn't helping because *maybe* you are scum who knows how I read you and what to incorporate *not I am not saying you are but you kinda need to understand why this isnt helping your case any*

when that wasn't how it happened - she was hardly making a big deal over it until the point where he had missed her setup spec'ing back on D1. the only reason she pushed her setup spec'ing in the way that she did here was because he had missed it the first time. and then when she asked him why she would go out of her way to tailor her meta towards him as opposed to anyone else in the game, he didn't answer it.

[pieguyn]

he'd missed the setup spec. I pointed out he'd missed it. he acknowledged she did setup spec on day 1. Then, Tammy brought it up again - because she was going through the thread sequentially and saw he'd missed it (but it looked like she had not yet read that I'd pointed it out. I think that for him, it felt like a late hit, after he'd already acknowledged he was wrong.

You're processing (and recounting) this through Tammy's PoV. Neither point of view lined up with events, but I felt like both were honest.

I actually thought Tammy's POV was really clear throughout the exchange (apart from right at the start where she thought notsci was talking about her setup spec'ing in general and not in this game), and it read to me like he was specifically nitpicking shit in order to look like he had a point/was engaged with the game. but, either way, I don't see at all where he'd get the idea that she was bringing her setup spec up in order to manipulate her meta off of it (which he did say).

[pieguyn]

And you can't see that coming from a place of pure paranoia at the tail end of a game day like day 2 became?

if it is, then wow? even before the claim came out, I thought the arguments she was pushing were well-reasoned and fairly standard for her: he should have noticed Tammy setup spec'ing before if it was a key part of how he read her in WTP. and it wasn't like she was attempting to say "I did this, thus you should be reading me as town" or anything like that; all it was was her questioning why he wouldn't have picked up on it at all. there is a difference between noticing something someone did as town and factoring it into your read, even if you are hesitant to town read them for it again (even if from her POV it would be a town sign for her), and not noticing it entirely.

and I don't think paranoia of her would have been justified at all after she claimed. that would be pretty fucking ridiculous to the point where I'm not entertaining it as a possibility.

It was!

I don't *actually* care that much about survivalism in the middle of a deadline scramble unless it's something obvious like what Titus did in S&V2 where she absolutely had to make sure there was a counterwagon to her scum partner available before switching votes. I'm not reading him as scum for that in particular.

[pieguyn]

I think you're missing the context of being in the thread and breathing all the crazy as we wondered what lynch options were even possible given where the votes were and who appeared to be around to vote. It was an exhausting night. If I hadn't had a solid read on S-s going into that I think I would have either had a meltdown or thrown up my hands and logged out. I don't know how the people on eastern and central time weathered it.

You can see it at the end where Tammy was still moving her vote around after the hammer. People weren't necessarily caught up and in the moment.

I don't think reading too much into the context here is a good idea. I know when I first saw the Tammy claim my immediate reaction was "she's 100% town, would bet the game on it". I think regardless of the deadline scramble that was going on, I would have drawn the same conclusion (would probably have snap hard-towned her and never looked back). notsci obviously saw the claim. I think notsci should have drawn the same conclusion from it given he has enough experience with her to say as much.

that he didn't, and instead continued to be "unsure about" her, is a large part of where my issue with it lies

there is also that Tammy was pretty consistently asking him about his concerns on her throughout the majority of the end of yesterday and why WTP didn't seem to be affecting his read in terms of her activity level, he acknowledged it but then didn't actually answer any of it (instead maintaining that it was irrelevant because he wasn't actually going to push her) - and even if he didn't acknowledge it, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all writing this off due to the deadline scramble given it's something he could just as easily have answered today and he's still not doing it.

I thought he was acting like a PR in distress. S-s' flip freaked me out a little because of that.

I could see that in particular as easily coming from him as VT, PR, or scum faking either of those things. I don't think it's really indicative.

[pieguyn]

essentially, he missed what should have been a blatantly obvious town marker (and I really really do not think the fact it was a deadline scramble should have had any effect on this), so combined with the rest of how he played it it read to me like he was BS'ing his Tammy read.

[pieguyn]

NOTSCIENCE - TOWN

no. pretty much just no about everything in this post. please don't buy that shit.

like, you're claiming "notsci wouldn't be antagonistic as scum" when 1. in reality, the exact opposite applies - it is likely he wouldn't have done anything that he knew would piss her off as town. the last post you pointed out is one post that specifically struck me as off in terms of his attitude, and 2. the rest of the posts are all posts that were made right when the issue first came up that

Tammy was reading wrong in the first place

. he didn't back away from it because, alignment regardless, it's something he knew he was fucking right about

I would really like if you could reevaluate your read here, because I think the reasoning you're using is based around expectations that in reality wouldn't occur. I think you're misinterpreting some key points about how the end of yesterday actually went down.

[pieguyn]

I'd also really like if you could read through the exchange between ffery/me earlier and tell me if you make anything of it.

also, ftr, I have some ideas for who might be scum with him (notsci) but I am specifically waiting to see how certain people react to it and I don't want to give anything away right at this point.

[pieguyn]

Last night our argument reminded me of the serum and steel game.

I'm really not sure what to say? if there's something specific that you're taking issue with, feel free to ask about it.

[pieguyn]

Funny, I seem to remember sakura saying I wouldn't do that to her if I was town in Bins's game

also I don't think your posts towards her in that game should have caused that kind of reaction and I think Sakura (as much as I love her) was entirely wrong in her assessment of your play there

[pieguyn]

I feel like I'm getting into a similar argument here, but I don't think it's as clear-cut that you're misreading notsci's mindest, or that I'm reading him correctly. But, last night, I felt strongly that you were wrong about the mindset driving his late day 2 play, and that once again you were more interested in convincing me I was wrong than in understanding what I'm thinking.

that is for the most part what my intention was

the difference here is that I'm practically 100% sure notsci is scum (whereas I was talking out of my ass a large majority of S&S re: a lot of what I was saying about CN). I've never read him wrong except for games where I was actually just scum. either way, I'm fairly sure attempting to argue against other people's reads is a fairly standard thing for me; I remember doing a _lot_ of it in the TM game and it definitely isn't exclusive to my scum game.

also, ftr, I have some ideas for who might be scum with him (notsci) but I am specifically waiting to see how certain people react to it and I don't want to give anything away right at this point.

this is also relevant. (spoiler alert, I kinda sorta wanna see what Oversoul does when he catches up and I don't have any intention of attempting to continue to hard push this if I think it's likely they could both be scum.)

[pieguyn]

Tammy was reading wrong how? How how how? I don't understand why scumnotscience goes out of his way to piss off Tammy, which is what he did. I mean, he didn't do it to be cruel or anything, but my point is he didn't have to say anything about Tammy's setup spec, positive or negative. I contend, as scum, he sure as hell wouldn't have went negative.

what would he have done instead, ignored it? he initially started talking about it because Tammy asked him about it in the first place.

ffery/me exchange starts at 1991; the main point here is that I really think town-notsci in particular should have been able to see Tammy was town here post-claim.

[pieguyn]

Pieguy

I just said I'm practically 100% sure he's scum. :p

[pieguyn]

Why?

town-notsci wouldn't have made 1839 after seeing the Tammy claim. he has enough experience with her to know there was basically 0 way she could be scum here after the way she claimed, and I know there's no way in hell he'd continue to maintain an "unsure on" stance on her after seeing it even if you account for deadline chaos. that, combined with the rest of how it played out makes me think he was BS'ing his Tammy read here. he was apparently "concerned about" her due to her lack of engagement here, which in the first place he should know isn't a scum tell for her or something she'd have to do as town after seeing WTP - and when Tammy had spent a large part of the end of yesterday trying to engage with him on his concerns re: her (including this point) he kept trying to write it off as irrelevant because he "didn't plan on pushing her".

the other point is that I wouldn't expect that level of hostility coming from him to Tammy right at the end of yesterday coming from town-him if he really intended to work with her here.

[pieguyn]

I think that notscience is town, as I've also stated before.

why?

how are you not seeing parallels between notsci's play in this game and you in N1570 re: for instance, Kitty Galore?

Yes! Lol. Obviously yes. There is no reason to paint himself in a corner as scum!

Tammy: "you noticed me setup spec'ing in We The Purple, how come you didn't notice it here?"
notsci: ...

how do you see that making any sense? you're saying that notsci has no reason to respond to it when it was a direct question _prompted_ by Tammy.

but if you want to talk about avoiding going toe-to-toe with her, I think the way he responded to her questions later re: his concerns about her (hint: he didn't) was a fucking textbook example of it

[pieguyn]

jesus I feel like I'm about to pass out and it's only 4 PM. fuck my sleep schedule <_>

[pieguyn]

pie, look, all he had to do was say, "fuck, yeah, i see what i missed now... sorry, tam tam". All he had to do. Or some variant of that. Maybe not so obvious, but you get my point. Tam was obviously very emotional at that stage and ready to kill RC, SS and Boon in one fell swoop. notscience wouldn't have had to be particularly convincing to get her to ease up off of him given that he was the only one of us three around and completely had the floor.

1682 was his response to Tammy's original question to him. Tammy's original question to him WAS NOT ABOUT HER SETUP SPEC'ING IN THIS GAME. it was about her setup spec'ing IN GENERAL. HE WAS NOT "DELIBERATELY TRYING TO RILE HER UP" THERE. all that was was them misinterpreting each others' posts. there is no ulterior scum motivation here regardless of what his alignment actually is.

the first post you quoted and said was overly antagonistic wasn't even directed towards Tammy, it was in response to ffery correcting him

1692 was more of them misinterpreting what each other meant; again, regardless of alignment, there's no ulterior motivation here.

after that, there was literally nothing (please don't make me quote literally all of his posts to demonstrate this). I'm looking through his ISO again and I see, quite literally, no antagonism directed towards Tammy whatsoever. his attitude until after the hammer was entirely him attempting to work with her/answer her questions.

the other posts you're quoting and claiming are "antagonistic" happened AFTER THE FUCKING HAMMER. even if he was deliberately attempting to manipulate his interactions with her (which I don't think is the case - I just think that in this case town-him would have approached it differently. see: next paragraph), I don't see why it would be a town tell or why he would have to avoid posting it as scum, given at that point there's no risk of anything happening whatsoever (you could argue that she might push him D3, but by then she would likely have been able to step back and look at the situation objectively - which, surprise, is what happened).

I am not postulating that notsci's scum strategy was to "deliberately rile her up and then try to ignore her" and I feel this should be obvious if you're reading my posts. in the first place, I'm not postulating that he's outright ignoring her; I'm saying that he's trying to *look* like he's attempting to form a read on her and like he has a point re: being concerned about her, but not actually having any solid reasoning, which is a fairly typical scum strategy when you want to fake a read. but regardless, the entire fucking point re: his last post is I don't think he was fully aware of how he was coming across - I think he as town should have known that antagonizing Tammy wouldn't serve to get anywhere useful regardless of what her alignment actually is.

either way, I don't really think we'll get anywhere by continuing this conversation

So, pie, notscience is making enemies with ffrey now because that's such great strategy, right??? I'm not trying to be mean; I just think you are sooo off base and I want other people to think this, too. Like, who the hell plays scum by alienating every strong town player?

I actually thought that post looked entirely fake, as if he was taking advantage of there being people being paranoid of ffery in order to potentially increase his options for mislynches.

[pieguyn]

I think notsci and Nacho are probably both scum. at the very least, Nacho needs to get the fuck in here and actually answer my question bc he should know I'm town here and he should be picking up on the same thing I am re: notsci's play.

[pieguyn]

Oversoul is probably town. I really doubt notsci/Nacho would have attempted to double bus in the way that they would have here if that was the scum team.

which sucks, cos now I have basically no idea who the best shot at 3rd scum is.

[pieguyn]

Also notscience telilng oversoul to vote in the pie/notscience schism is like, intentionally suicidal if notscience is scum

like fuck i think my opinion on ns has done a complete 180 since yesterday

also, he would absolutely think to fake that in this scenario - this falls pretty solidly into his playstyle, especially here with regard to the whole "pie is 100% scum for misreading me" angle. please don't buy that shit.

[pieguyn]

yo ffery

when you get a chance, there's something that I think is somewhat important that I wanna discuss with you. I promise it doesn't (directly at least) have anything to do with notsci!

[pieguyn]

I'm here-ish.

you're town reading RC, correct?

[pieguyn]

I don't even know any more.

I think s.

fair enough.

do you think, given his role, I would have played the end of D2 the way I did with me-scum RC-town?

[pieguyn]

I'm actually thinking about this and I think there's a very real chance implo is some sort of scum here *if* Oversoul is telling the truth about having another PR.

assuming 3 goons for this:

2-shot vigilante
jailkeeper
rolecop
???
miller
VT x 5

goon
goon
goon

I have no idea what scum would get in order to balance this against all these town roles, unless Oversoul's role is entirely useless. the only thing I could maybe see is a full roleblocker or something similar in terms of power (maybe rolecop but it's inelegant to put duplicate town vs. scum roles like that), which probably makes enough sense that I don't see a reason to question it.

jailkeeper
rolecop
???
miller
VT x 5

SK

goon
goon
goon

I'm worried about this possibility. if Oversoul's role is fairly strong, then this amount of town power is about what I would expect in a 9-3-1 setup in that miller can be cleared, rolecop can find SK and potentially scum if they have any indicative PRs, jailkeeper can potentially block a bunch of kills, + whatever Oversoul is.

jailkeeper
rolecop
???
miller
VT x 6

SK

goon
goon

I'm not sure if this makes any sense bc iirc most 10-2-1 setups I've seen have actually been fairly low town power, which usually works since with that ratio town still has a fair amount of room to lynch all the scum even if no crosskills occur (and if one *does* it swings heavily in favor of town).

jailkeeper
rolecop
???
miller
VT x 6

goon
goon
goon

this would also make sense setup-wise, I think. (implo faking vig entirely)

I'd like if someone who has a better setup-dar than me or who is more familiar with the kinds of setups Empire runs to look into this, but the major point here is implo is the correct lynch today if we have reason to believe the setup is 9-3-1 (otherwise we risk reach a degenerate gamestate that's basically impossible to win). there is also the chance Oversoul and/ or RC are just scum, but, meh.

[pieguyn]

vote: Nacho

:/

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

[pieguyn]

And since I'm underground and can't look at quotes or posts, gonna ramble a bit and explore the Ffery scum read a bit more because it actually makes a lot of lot of sense. If oversoul is scum and he makes a big post everyone but me and RC likes, then that is the absolute perfect time for her to spend some town cred pushing me. Bonus is she knows that she's justified in feeling paranoia based on some of the recent games together and she knows that I probably won't push her back in response to paranoia since I normally don't, so even if she doesn't get me lynched, she knows she's probably safe and she knows taking a position like that in response to my oversoul read is immediately going to make me doubt my oversoul read. If we were to get really, really crazy then it might even be possible that Layla jailed me N1, Ffery shot me, and that explains why S-S treated his scum read on me the way he did (kept it in the back of his mind, didn't really pursue it) and it would most definitely explain why S-S died in the night almost immediately because no one else had a weird interaction with me and the only person who would probably protect me N1 would be Tammy who claimed rolecop at that point :/

The reasons I thought Ffery was town dealt a lot with how she opened the game; normally her first few posts as scum are the weakest until she gets in a good groove. I liked her interactions with S-S a lot; her townread on that slot seemed like she was refreshed and relieved and I don't think that tone really comes across in her posting that clearly as scum. I thought that us voting together as much as we did was a sign of a good mind meld but then she could be following me too closely, but then I liked her challenge of me when I voted RC but never really understood the strong Vinkah townread, especially now that I think I know who he is?

Coming above ground now.

[pieguyn]

This Oversoul wagon is one of the most shit wagons I've ever seen in my whole entire life.

Nacho's ffery push is scummy as fuck. What we're seeing here, folks, is cornered Nacho-scum flailing. He *convenienly* is ignoring the entire notsci/me shitstorm that's going on except for one weak as fuck sentence; he can't push me because he knows I'll run him into the ground if he even tries it after N1570, and he conveniently isn't going to push his partner notsci, so he's just making up a bunch of shit in order to *hopefully* get away with pushing someone elsewhere.

If Oversoul actually gets lynched here, I'm going to be power lynching through notsci and Nacho in about that order, and they won't be able to do shit about it due to it being LYLO. fufufu ~

[pieguyn]

(and no, I don't particularly give a shit about the not-VT retraction. anyone who thinks that shit is _actually_ more likely to come from scum is just wrong)

[pieguyn]

If you're town here, how would you have played it differently as scum?

given that RC's role is capable of being cleared, there is no universe where I would have walked in here and saved him when he would certainly have been lynched otherwise.

if I have the chance to eliminate a potential clear from the game, I take it, full stop - you could make the argument the alternative lynch might have been a significantly larger threat, but Boon? BOON?!?!

Pie completely ignored my nacho vote and launched into setup spec. That also bothered me.

I didn't want to walk into your line of questioning.

if it's *really* not that obvious notsci/Nacho are scum here, I'll wagon him with you.

[pieguyn]

continue to repeat that I'm scum and hope people accept it as truth without actually thinking critically

[pieguyn]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

WHAT HTE FUCK DO YOU THINK I DID WHEN I FIRST SAW THE OVERSOUL WAGON? I'VE LITERALLY OPPOSED IT THE WHOLE TIME SINCE IT FIRST CAME UP. I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYHING SINCE THEN BECAUSE

I HAVEN'T FUCKING BEEN HERE[/b

I WAS LITERALLY ABOUT TO WRITE A FUCKING POST EXPLAINING WHY OVERSOUL HAS NO SCUM MOTIVATION TO PLAY THIS THE WAY HE DID

I GET THAT YOU'RE SCUM STRETCHING TO FIND SHIT TO PUSH ME WITH, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO ATTEMPT TO EXPLICITLY USE MY RL IN ORDER TO PUSH ME HERE?

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU
FUCK YOU
FUCK YOU

[pieguyn]

I WAS LITERALLY JUST TAKING A BREAK AND PLAYING 100% ORANGE JUICE WITH SAKURA AND PEOPLE

BUT NO, YOU CONINUE TO FUCKING SPIN BULLSHIT ABOUT MY RL.

[pieguyn]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

I ACTUALLY WANT TO FUCKING PUNCH SOMEONE IN HTE FACE RIGHT NOW.

[pieguyn]

LIKE SERIOUSLY WHAT FUCKING RIGHT DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO CLAIM I "HAVEN'T BEEN DERAILING THE OVERSOUL WAGON"

[pieguyn]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OH MY GOD

[pieguyn]

Shes pressing me on my back foot but she isnt arguing down this oversoul wagon like she would if she actually wanted it to stop-

Ffery. Tammy.

notsci *is aware* that I hardly have any RL time to play the game. That said, do you really fucking think he sees this series of posts

Spoiler:

This Oversoul wagon is one of the most shit wagons I've ever seen in my whole entire life.

Nacho's ffery push is scummy as fuck. What we're seeing here, folks, is cornered Nacho-scum flailing. He *convenienly* is ignoring the entire notsci/me shitstorm that's going on except for one weak as fuck sentence; he can't push me because he knows I'll run him into the ground if he even tries it after N1570, and he conveniently isn't going to push his partner notsci, so he's just making up a bunch of shit in order to *hopefully* get away with pushing someone elsewhere.

If Oversoul actually gets lynched here, I'm going to be power lynching through notsci and Nacho in about that order, and they won't be able to do shit about it due to it being LYLO. fufufu ~

(and no, I don't particularly give a shit about the not-VT retraction. anyone who thinks that shit is _actually_ more likely to come from scum is just wrong)

sees me *not even being here* after that and tries to claim I'm "not doing anything to stop the oversoul wagon"?

[pieguyn]

And I understand you think she's town but this flip out is just so insane and it makes literally no fucking sense to me from town-pie's perspective.

JLeave me the fuck alone.

I don't like people who pull the "spam the thread with bullshit" strategy. It's a fucking dumb way to play the game.

That you would fucking push an acivity case on me when YOU KNOW that I haven't been here is absolutely awful andthe worst part is, explicitly *due to* not being here I can't even fight it. And you're continuing to do the same fucking thing.

[pieguyn]

I brought your RL in as a reason of fucking pause and you're making it out like I'm using it to push you which is absolutely fucking bullshit.

No, you blatantly *were* pushing it as a reason for me being scum here.

I was literally about to come back in here and write a more in-depth post explaining wh he wouldn' do this as scum. How is that not "me not being here"?

[pieguyn]

Oh my fucking god.

I'm leaving. Tammy, ffery, please don't buy this shit.

[pieguyn]

Like seriously.

Activity is literally the *one* thing that I absoluely fucking hate when people attempt to push. You KNOW this about me.

You wouldn't fucking try and push this on me if you were town here.

[pieguyn]

OK.

I woke up right before I posted 2340 (yes, I woke up at 5 PM -.-) only to find that a wagon on Oversoul had sprang up as the counterwagon to notsci for entirely nonsensical reasons. I only had like an hour-hour and a half to post/read this game before I left and this isn't the only game I need to give attention (there's a few other games on this site/offsite that I need to remain caught up in), and even that was on/off because we're in the middle of moving a house and there's a lot of random shit my parents call me for. So, given the time I had, I hardly had any time to actually sit down, read the game in-depth, and do stuff. Most of when I actually have a hard block of time to read/make actual cases in games comes really really late at night. The majority of what I read, not counting Nacho's posts, was RC and implo posting what looked like ridiculous reasons for Oversoul being scum here. Based on the fact I had other shit I needed to do, the only thing I could really say was that the Oversoul wagon was awful; I didn't really have a chance to sit down and make an actual case on why the way Oversoul played this wasn't coming from scum or why, specifically, I think Nacho is trying to push a counterwagon here. So yeah, it is an activity-related reason.

I was already really on edge because notsci's approach this game day has essentially amounted to repeating that I'm scum over and over without any logical reason for it. Which, in addition to being the exact same fucking shit Nacho pulled in the last game where he was scum against me and got me mislynched (and he's doing the same fucking thing again here, he's just being a lot more low-key about it and doesn't have me as his primary read), is just a really stupid scum strategy (and is something I've seen a lot of recently from people like MS and Titus) and something I wish people would stop doing entirely because it takes all the enjoyment out of the game for me. It essentially reduces the game to whoever is more active and is best able to outyell everyone else; which, in the first place, is not something I'm capable of doing in my current position RL-wise (the fact that Nacho was able to walk in here and flood the thread with posts to push the Oversoul wagon is testimony to this), but it's not fun at all.

I also saw more similar posts coming from him - as one example, 2355. I have no idea how people *ever* read posts like this and think it's coming from anything *but* an overdefensive-scum mindset. This is the kind of shit people like BRO always pull as scum (which he did in the last game I had with him and I correctly called him out on it) and I have no idea how it apparently continues to work every game despite it being transparent as fuck.

The other thing that has me really on edge here is that I think it's really fairly fucking obvious I'm town here if you read the end of D2; there is literally no reason I would have played it the way I did as scum unless I'm scum with RC. And, SURPRISE, both notsci and Nacho are trying to act entirely like that point doesn't exist. They don't have any counterargument for it, so they just attempt to mist over it and justify it with "lol, ur better at logic than me", never mind the fact it's entirely objective and it should really be fucking straightforward to explain any sort of reason I would have done it as scum.

I am sorry if my reaction was overblown. At that point, I had been watching the thread for about half an hour, but hadn't been able to post because I was playing a game with some of my other friends and so I couldn't actually type a response to anything - and then I kept seeing him trying to push more and more blatantly false reasons for me being scum here. Then he tried to claim that it was scummy that I wasn't "derailing the Oversoul wagon" (when I had done basically all I could given the time I had for the game) and I lost all interest in being civil here. It didn't remotely help that in another recent game I played I was in a similar position RL-wise and had people pushing that I was scum for "avoiding the thread", and felt for a majority of the game until I *actually* had more time to do anything to begin with and was able to post a bunch of analysis that no one would town read me or be willing to pay attention to anything I was writing that game.

Lastly, I am taking Nacho seeing this and still scum reading me as a hard scum claim (if his push on ffery wasn't enough of one already). And notsci attempting to double down after seeing this is entirely bullshit. I'm nowhere near an emotionally manipulative player as scum, and he knows this about me (Nacho correctly pointed this out in the last game we played).

If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll write about Oversoul and probably some other stuff in a separate post, but this might not come tonight since I don't remotely feel like doing anything intensive right now.

[pieguyn]

Like, seriously, notsci.

You're claiming that "no one wants pie to be town more than me" yet you were just saying stuff like "I'm not getting in any argument with you".

Where in here was I ever supposed to get the impression you wanted to work with me here?

Like at this point, especially, you should really, really know this isn't coming from scum-me and I have literally no idea why you possibly think it could.

When I said "activity", I meant that I literally could not have done anything more to derail the wagon given the time I had. I was planning on making a more in-depth post about it, answering ffery's question to me, etc. when I got back and actually had time to do stuff.

[pieguyn]

:/

I slept on it. In all honesty, I don't actually think notsci is scum anymore. 2437 and 2439 in particular were posts that stood out as feeling really really town.

I need to leave for class in a few minutes so I can't give an in-depth response to your post. I have a lot of time this afternoon after class so I'll be able to pop on and respond to it then.

[pieguyn]

My issues with notsci's play were entirely logic-based and based around the fact that he/Nacho made a hell of a lot of sense as a scum team, plus the fact that I can't come up with any other way this game makes any sense due to having a lot of town reads elsewhere.

I think Nacho basically has to be scum here. Even outside of how it relates to notsci, most of what he's posted today is actually nonsense. *If* he is somehow town here, I will probably need to rethink everything about this game.

Later today I should hopefully be able to reread some stuff in-depth.

vote: Nacho

[pieguyn]

i could easily see that claim coming from Nacho as either alignment

i think Nacho was probably bussing RC on D2.

[pieguyn]

Rolecop
Backup rolecop
Miller
Vig
Jailkeeper

It doesn't feel right.

I think rolecop, jailkeeper, 2xvig would make sense regardless of whether there's a miller in the setup or not.

I don't think rolecop/jailkeeper by itself makes sense; at least one of {backup, 2xvig} has to be in there too.

I agree all of these roles definitely aren't in the setup.

[pieguyn]

ffery

do you think 2251 makes any sense as a reason for Nacho supposedly being paranoid of you here? it felt to me like an entirely arbitrary thing for him to focus on - as if he was faking it.

[pieguyn]

I'll probably go through sometime later tonight and explain why I didn't like it in-depth, actually.

[pieguyn]

I want to wait until he catches up and we talk before I answer your question.

I was probably going to go through later tonight and make a case on why I didn't like it. if you think it might screw up how you read him, do you want me to withhold doing so until you get a chance to talk with him?

[pieguyn]

got it.

[pieguyn]

ugh.

I'm sorry notsci :/ I'd really like if we could work with each other from this point forward, but I'll entirely understand if you want to avoid me from here on out or something like that.

[pieguyn]

so the first thing I want to address re: Oversoul is the way he claimed not-VT and then retracted it. there's an obvious question here that I think everyone is missing: given the situation he was in, why the fuck does scum-Oversoul bother retracting the PR claim at all? I think if he was scum here, he'd either go balls-deep and continue with the PR claim or retract it immediately, not fucking both. in fact, I think continuing with the PR claim would have been a *lot* more convenient for scum-him here; it'd at the very least give him a greater chance at getting out of the lynch (and, if uncontested, could potentially allow him to survive to endgame).

retracting it, on the other hand, essentially doesn't do anything besides make him look bad. seriously. what the fuck does scum-Oversoul have to gain by retracting it in the way he did? somebody (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, RC) please tell me because it doesn't make any sense and I still haven't seen a compelling reason for it anywhere.

I also don't make anything of him asking Tammy to rolecop him when he was in reality just a VT, for the obvious reason that he should theoretically just be able to kill Tammy anyway if he is scum here. I also think that due to him/Tammy apparently having a lot of experience with each other, he thought Tammy would see a potential VT result on him and pick up on what he was trying to do (that is, she would see him as clearly town for it as opposed to questioning why he lied). so the fact that he did that doesn't bug me. I also don't really agree that it was as misleading as a lot of people in this game seem to think it is - I had thought of the possibility that he was just VT fake claiming when it first came up (see: the first line of my setup spec post), and it appears some others had done the same.

outside of the claim, I thought the sheer level of conviction he had in response to his wagon read town. 2288 is one post in particular that makes me think this; I have no idea how people can read posts like this and think it comes from a scum player.

I think that the Oversoul wagon is in large part a scum power play - in no small part due to certain people's changes in reads from D2/D3. Nacho spent the end of D2 pushing RC. D3 comes up, RC makes a huge case on Vinkah's slot, and Nacho

forgets about the RC scum read entirely and goes to push Vinkah along with him.

DOES ANYONE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE? as for the points themselves, most of what Nacho has posted about Oversoul has been entirely ridiculous, and RC's push essentially amounts to Oversoul lying being "anti-town" without considering what the motivation for it actually is (correct me if I'm wrong on this because that's all I've fucking seen so far).

[pieguyn]

since it appears ffery has given the green light to comment on stuff outside of Nacho's read on her:

While this is probably a decent indication these two aren't partners together, implosion didn't claim vig D1 when he put Anen at L-1. He claimed Day 2 when notscience put him at L-1. And while this isn't a huge smoking gun or anything since I wouldn't expect either alignment to just put out false information, I really have absolutely no idea how Oversoul got that specific bit wrong and wonder how exactly he got that wrong. Scum talking about setting up a fake vig claim actually sort of makes sense to me, but more importantly I feel like missing a huge chunk of information on the person he was rage boner scumreading is really, really strange.

this is, quite literally, Nacho calling Oversoul scum because he got the timing of when implosion claimed wrong.

. . .

really?

And this is something that I keep reading and reading again because it doesn't really make sense and I can't see why oversoul thinks why the way he does here. Like, the really really strong implosion!scum position he takes overwhelms the shit out of most of the paragraph but most posting directed at implosion doesn't really seem to be scumreading him (like the "you hold people's lives in your hands! post), and he apparently has a whole bunch of reasons why he thinks implosion is scum except for this one point that didn't even happen which again sketches me out because I still have absolutely no idea how the hell he could possibly have created that situation in the first place.

I don't even know what to say about this because it makes absolutely 0 sense. the only point here I'm actually seeing is that Oversoul talked to implo in a way that suggested he wasn't scum reading him when he supposedly had a strong scum read on him, which in reality doesn't *actually* mean anything. it is flat-out wrong to assume that a town player has to push a scum read in every post they make directed towards him; people will often address people neutrally even if they are scum reading them. this is really just common sense and Nacho pushing otherwise is bullshit

There's also just this... The reason oversoul hates RC's .Miller claim so much is because, and I quote, "it's something scum can play preemptively like..." and for death Miller stuff, and this apparently translates into RC seriously dropping the ball for how to play his role effectively? What?

the obvious conclusion re: this point is that Oversoul thought RC played his role in a way that was unconvincing, and thus that he was scum for it - which, surprise, is exactly what he fucking said. there is no contradiction here, and Nacho attempting to spin one out of nowhere is also bullshit

Do you think as scum he'd feel the situation is dire enough for his slot that he'd hail mary? because if he actually has a PR then I feel like someone else - maybe implosion? - is lying. how to factor in Tammy's reaction that he's town?

The VT-NotVT-VT claim seems townish in that it seems too ridiculous to be anything but town crazy. The NotVT claim was atrocious nonsense and manipulative, and seemed like an easy choice for "claimed power role most like to be fake" at the time.

Now there's a question of would Oversoul play like this as scum; I guess I've always imagined his scum game a lot more methodical and his town meta random but a lot of what he's talking about doesn't make sense, I hate the way he interacted with my read on him, and the confidence is blarge and also I really can't see him being one of the town reads in the group I was working with earlier.

I hated this angle in general because rather than actually pointing out what was manipulative or atrocious about the not-VT claim or analyzing the motivation behind it (spoiler: he can't), he handwave dismisses it. it also fails to take into account what Oversoul actually said in the game thread: that he was attempting to draw a NK, and that part of this was trying to force a Tammy investigation on him, which is entirely pointless if he claims what his role specifically is. there is also that simply claiming not-VT is the most reasonable option from a town POV because if you claim a specific PR you risk outing an *actual* PR and getting yourself lynched, yet he tries to spin it like Oversoul has to claim it in that way as a result of him saying he'd lynch any other PR claim - never mind the fact that the exact same thing should theoretically hold for a blanket non-VT claim the exact same way it would for a specific PR claim.

it's essentially him attempting to attribute Oversoul's actions to some ~cosmic scum motivation~ when the actual motivation, alignment-regardless, is what Oversoul said in the game thread, which is a fairly common scum strategy when attempting to fake a read.

SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT I'M MISSING HERE.

[pieguyn]

I am particularly interested in what RC and implo have to say about the above post.

notsci, what do you make of the last point in 2539?

[pieguyn]

Vote: RedCoyote

This is where I'd rather go.

For the record, the initial vote is based on feeling and no reason beyond that. I am reading through him now and reasons are soon to come if I still feel good about it, but reasons that I come up with are not reasons I had in mind when I made the vote.

this was Nacho's initial RC vote. the progression here felt off and forced - as if he wanted to push RC for strategic reasons - and, in hindsight, it looks extremely dissimilar to anything I've seen him do as town before.

after that, he puts RC as town due to miller claim, which is reasonable, but I still think the random read flop on Vinkah for no reason until after Oversoul came into the game is a huge issue.

It's a strange scum tactic to push hard for a lynch at the beginning of the day? Why?

Yeah, I kept modifying that line as I was typing it. It felt like something I really wanted to comment on and that felt significant that I couldn't put my finger on. Idk, maybe notable is just the right word. Honestly I think as I was writing out that part of the post I sort of half-realized that no, that would actually be an incredibly likely ploy for scum-RC to pull, and that didn't really fit in in my head. But it got left in there.

As in claiming PR first?
Why is that?

How do you think the claim fits in with the overall setup?

In general making such a big deal about it. The claiming "not a vt" thing I think just draws more attention to RC if he's scum and I don't think he would want that kind of attention. Especially if we lynch someone else without forcing him to claim - that just makes it awkward that he didn't die, which would be additionally difficult for him to explain. It would just be putting extra obstacles in his way as scum in a way that doesn't make much sense.

Claiming non specific PR means that there's the chance that he can draw a lynch away from himself without risk of counterclaim.

He would very easily be able to explain himself still being alive by scum being afraid of protection.

/whistle

[pieguyn]

That's actually not what it amounts to, but if it does, then your case essentially amounts to Nacho's lying being "anti-town" without considering the motiviation for it actually is.

no, no it doesn't

the entire point is *why* Oversoul would lie about this. what benefit is there for scum-him to half-assedly retract the claim instead of following through with it? I can't think of any, whereas it makes at least some sense that he would as town. I can follow what his thought process behind it was, and although I think attempting to draw a NK is a dumb strategy, I think it makes a fair amount of sense that he'd come in here and thought he could break the game by doing something ridiculous, and I think it makes sense he thought he'd get recognized as town for it.

Nacho on the other hand is just making shit up here. he wouldn't push most of the shit he did earlier as town because it doesn't make any sense someone would think most of the stuff he's pushing, whereas he obviously would as scum

so it's not remotely the same issue, and I'm still waiting for you to tell me what he had to gain by doing it as scum

I guess you, like, forgot that I had a beef with Vinkah throughout D2 for several different reasons. Before Oversoul was even in the game at all. You haven't seen a whole hell of a lot that doesn't fit into your perfect little narrative, pie.

what push did you make on Vinkah D2? I'm looking through your ISO again and I see the last part of 787, 893 and 1410 and that's it. in terms of reasoning, this is a lot less of a push than what you did at the start of today. there is a huge difference between poking at someone occasionally throughout the game day without much direct engagement or certainty behind it and hard pushing a read.

[pieguyn]

Let's strike a deal here, pie.

If I vote Nacho today, if Nacho gets lynched with my help, will you commit to lynching Oversoul with me tomorrow?

*if* Nacho flips town, I will reevaluate the game and potentially be open to an Oversoul lynch as a result of that, but I'm not just going to go "herpaderp I'm lynching player X".

[pieguyn]

i first thought implo being scum required Nacho to be town (which is why i had a problem with it) but now that i looked at it again, if i squint, i could see just JK+rolecop+miller making sense setup-wise (or god forbid 10-2-1 with just JK+rolecop and potentially miller - which if Empire actually did i'm legitimately flying to Miami and punching him in the face).

i think if implo can't see why i backed off at the point i did or why i wanted to reach out to notsci afterward, he didn't read notsci's posts leading up to it at all at best

[pieguyn]

He wanted to gain some town credit, but didn't actually have the power role to back it up.

if he was playing for towncred, there are a fuckton of more reliable ways he could have went about it. it isn't difficult at all to adequately fake a catchup - as in, a standard "read the thread and give reads on everyone" catchup - and even if he did decide to step in here and fakeclaim a PR, it would have been a lot more beneficial to scum-him here if he had just stuck with the PR claim instead of retracting it for as far as I can tell no reason (and, no, trying to convince people he's "too scummy to be scum" is not a compelling reason, in no small part explicitly to how unreliable of a strategy it would be). I still don't think, outside of that reason, anyone else has given any reason he would have bothered retracting the PR claim as scum or acknowledged the point that it would have been fairly obvious retracting it in the way he did would have done nothing to actually save him here.

the only reason I can see for him-scum playing the way he did is that he was resigned to being lynched from the get go and so he decided to just start making up a bunch of shit. but that feels unlikely enough to me that I'm not really considering it.

If he was town, why would he gambit to attract the night kill when
-he was already under so much suspicion
-there were already other claimed power roles
-he even said that his power role wasn't strong
?

I am not going to pretend like I have a clue why, specifically, Oversoul thought he'd be capable of drawing the NK. it's an incredibly dumb strategy that hardly ever actually works. however, that does not change the fact that some people think it's a good strategy or that they're capable of doing so for *insert shit reason here*.

in Oversoul's case, he thought he could walk in here, do something ridiculous, and act like Tammy would be able to walk in and confirm him as town come tomorrow. although I strongly disagree with it on principle, I can see why he would believe it.

and my gut is telling me that nacho's posturing right now is town

no, it really isn't. Nacho is continuing to be disingenuous about several things here - the least of which is that, duh, I haven't explained why I have a problem with his push on ffery because

ffery specifically asked me not to explain it until she had a chance to interact with him.

he is also conveniently ignoring me pointing out why his push on Oversoul is incorrect rather than addressing it. and I could maybe see this, if he just didn't get around to addressing it or at least took some sort of stance on it even if he didn't respond to it in depth - but then he specifically tries to claim that I haven't actually read anything he wrote and acts like my counter-case doesn't even exist. what the fuck do you think reads town about this? he is actually just making shit up here: he is fitting the evidence towards the read he wants to push (Oversoul-scum) and he's not acknowledging the reasoning for his push being wrong because he knows it'll make him look like obvious fucking scum if it becomes obvious his arguments don't hold water and he continues to push it anyway. so, instead he just tries to claim that I haven't read what he actually wrote and hopes that people accept it as truth without reading critically. this is a fairly textbook scum manoeuvre when attempting to fake a read, and it should honestly be really obvious to read from his play if you read how it played out in order.

plus him acknowledging when RC initially hinted at having a PR that not wanting to risk drawing a CC is a fairly compelling motivation for claiming non-standard PR, and then turning around and flat-out ignoring this when Oversoul claimed he had a PR

among other things

so no, there is nothing town about the way Nacho has been playing this, and I have no idea what you're seeing about it that reads town.

I'm not saying that pie tunneling and then flipping on notscience is what's scummy, I'm saying that the way she did it and the timing were scummy. notscience made a series of posts including 2437/2439. pie continues to attack notscience vehemently, categorizing 2355 as something that she doesn't understand how anyone could possibly read as not scummy. She then sleeps on it and immediately does a 180 degree turn citing 2437/2439.

my notsci read fell into a similar vein as my Nacho read in that he was pushing a bunch of stuff that I thought it made absolutely no sense for town-him to push, and as a result, the only reasonable explanation was that he was just scum. so yes, I was practically 100% sure that he was scum here.

you are correct to say that I didn't see 2437/2439 as town when I first saw it. I was tired and still emotional over what had happened immediately before. after I was able to back away from the game for a while and read the exchange again, though, it became incredibly obvious that his reaction was indicative of town-him. he is, conclusively, not an emotionally manipulative player as scum, whereas in hindsight it made perfect sense based on what I know about him that he would have reacted in that way as town.

I still don't have any idea where he would have got the majority of his push on me from, but regardless, the way he reacted was far stronger evidence towards him being town, so I don't particularly care about it anymore.

[pieguyn]

I feel like if you're town then my next best bet right now is oversoul/wicked/ffery.

can you walk me through your ffery read in more detail (or link if I missed it)?

[pieguyn]

did you see the last half of 2664?

[pieguyn]

I think the major win for me today has been nailing down my nacho read.

wait, you're not scum reading him?

ugh

[pieguyn]

the only way I can see Oversoul making any sense as scum is if he's being bussed here

... which, now that I think about it, actually seems to make a lot of sense and would explain why it's so damn hard to get any scum reads in this game. although it'd probably imply Nacho is scum anyway.

either way, I'm mostly in a holding position of waiting for Tammy to catch up. I'm interested in her thoughts on Nacho in particular.

also, happy scum day to me! \o/

[pieguyn]

unvote

i don't think Nacho is town but i want Tammy to catch up and Nacho to actually sit down and give a response to my 2540/2664 before i go any further with it

[pieguyn]

a large part of the reason I thought Nacho was bussing RC on D2 had to do with the timing and progression of it

but another thing I was thinking of was that it looked similar to what he did in NY 169 to MafiaSSK on D1 in that he made a push on him right at deadline, SSK claimed doctor, and then he derailed it in order to cause a bunch of chaos at the deadline. this would be somewhat different in that Nacho wasn't around after the claim actually happened and I don't think SSK planned out the claim far in advance like RC would have done here, but I think it would have the same effect.

now that I'm taking a closer look at it again, this is more so the case when in hindsight I'm fairly sure both competing wagons (Boon and notsci) were on town. given those circumstances, from his POV it would have been extremely likely one of them would have got lynched in all the deadline chaos in absence of the RC wagon.

the other benefit to doing this, which is a point I think got brought up in that game as well. is that if RC flips at any point he can point back and say "o look, I _did_ catch scum, I just got threw off by the town-looking claim. oops".

and the other major reason (which I kind of didn't wanna elaborate on) is that from what I've seen of Nacho he usually busses once early game, so I would expect one of the people he pushed at the end of D2 would be somewhat more likely than average to be scum. RC fit the most in that regard in that his read really came out of nowhere. but, this by itself really isn't much of a point.

there's some other stuff I wanna sit down and look at but I wanted to get this out there

[pieguyn]

also, on an entirely unrelated note: am I the only one who thinks this might be 10-2-1?

I'm agreeing implo's recent posts look more town than not. and now I'm essentially stuck in the ass because I can't figure out a 3-person scum team from the remaining players. I have Nacho and RC as scum and then ??? bc I have reason to town read everyone else if I'm right about those two being scum.

the alternative here is that someone is bussing (which would point back to Oversoul scum).

[pieguyn]

Tammy, do you make anything out of Oversoul's current notsci read? I'm wondering bc I think notsci's reaction to me really obviously wouldn't have come from scum-him, and I was expecting him to factor that in when catching up (even if he hasn't seen the notsci/me dynamic in games, he had me and a bunch of other people who have saying notsci was strongly town off it). him ignoring it and putting notsci as scum anyway read to me like he saw the position he was in and was afraid to make up a scum read on anyone else out of fear of generating controversial content. however, I can't tell if I'm just overly biased here bc I have really high familiarity with notsci.

Nacho, I don't think you responded to the relevant part of 2664 (if I'm missing it, link plz).

[pieguyn]

There's just nothing left to say, imo. Now Nacho is hiding under the desk.

Actually, there is one question I have. implosion, have you told us who you are shooting tonight?

what in the holy hell was the point of this question? I can't see any reason you'd want this to be public information as town, whereas I'd expect it'd be *very* useful to scum at this point in the game (they would want to know in advance if it was likely one of them would get shot and plan accordingly).

[pieguyn]

What Notsci recent stuff?

. . .

please don't tell me you missed everything that happened starting from p98

[pieguyn]

I don't know why he'd be afraid of outing actual PRs when massclaim was over?

this is a fair point.

[pieguyn]

It wasn't that he got the timing wrong; his initial argument was that he was reading implosion as town because he claimed D1, with no pressure on him, when someone else was being run up and it would have been very very simple for him to get a mislynch. It's okay and natural to misremember details, sure; but when the foundation of a read on someone is something they don't remember at all, we have problems, especially when that read is a significant one.

I'm reading through this again.

When I got to his claim, his VIG claim, it was pretty baller. Reminds me of my own types of claims. Placed at the tail end of the day, when putting Anen at L-1 at a time he thought Anen could be lynched. That all seems town motivated. However, holy fuck the coincidences of EVERYONE targetting Gnomeo night 1 is really, really, really not likely.

this is what Oversoul said. my interpretation of this was that Oversoul was pretty clearly referring to implo's vig crumb back on D1 that he pulled up when he claimed as opposed to his actual claim coming from D2, which is something that he's since clarified. I know when I read a lot of stuff at once, I have a tendency to either misspeak or misremember details about what actually happened; so when I read it I assumed he was either referring to the crumb or had confused implo's vig crumb with his actual claim.

what stood out to me was that you assumed he had to be "scum forgetting when implo claimed" without actually thinking through why this might have been the case. in reality, I would expect it to be fairly unlikely scum would *actually* forget a major point like that unless they would have as town. most people are perfectly capable of remembering or otherwise being accurate about stuff that happened in the game thread as scum unless they're absolute shit at scum. so, when you said otherwise, it didn't look like you were actually trying to figure out why Oversoul would have came up with the conclusion he did or consider possibilities there. it read like you saw that what Oversoul said wasn't strictly what happened, thought it would be a good angle to push as an "inconsistency", and so there it was

I don't really think Oversoul is town anymore, but I think even if Oversoul *is* scum here, it likely isn't for this specific point. can you walk me through what your thought process here was?

[pieguyn]

Like what is your #1 scumteam and why?

{you, RC, Oversoul}.

I think you/RC and Oversoul are defending and bussing each other respectively. I can't really come up with any way this game makes any sense otherwise, assuming this is 10-3 (10-2-1 would make a fuckton of sense for why no one seems to fit together as a scum team, though).

*IF* you're town, I would be looking at {RC, Oversoul, Wicked} as a scum team, I suppose, but from there my reads are entirely fucked bc I don't know how this game works without RC as scum and you have a strong town read on him. if you have time, can you elaborate in more detail on why RC is a strong town read for you?

[pieguyn]

You spent the majority of this day saying I am town. What changed? How does your scum team change when I flip town?

I first thought the way you reacted to your wagon looked town as fuck. then I thought about it more and figured it'd probably be a lot easier to fake the majority of it if you did most of it from a "going down in flames" POV as opposed to a "get the wagon off me" POV.

if you're town, I'd be looking at {Nacho, RC, Wicked} for scum assuming 10-3.

[pieguyn]

POE. at this point I have town reads on literally everyone else except I'm only weak town on implo and he can't be scum with RC anyway due to setup.

[pieguyn]

oh thank god

[pieguyn]

I think it's wicked/RC.

Discuss.

yep

[pieguyn]

I think Wicked's play D3 makes a hell of a lot of sense as scum distancing. he maintained both Oversoul and Nacho as top scum reads throughout the entire day without really committing to either. the scum motivation there would be that he doesn't want to draw attention onto himself if Nacho does get lynched, but wants to leave himself the option to vote on the counterwagon if necessary. as for the push itself, there was a lot of questioning but the only real point was Nacho's RC read flop, which felt a lot weaker than the reasoning for his Oversoul push on a general level (thinking the way Oversoul claimed was indicative of scum and that his reasoning for it didn't hold water).

I'd be ok with a no lynch if need be.

[pieguyn]

ffery, you agree on RC/Wicked scum team?

[pieguyn]

When I saw the oversoul flip, my immediate thought was that remaining scum were nacho/you/redcoyote or nacho/notsci/pie, with the second grouping lower probability simply because nacho doesn't usually ignore his scumbuddies and he came pretty close to ignoring both of them for most of day 1/2/3.

I realize this means fuckall if you think I'm scum with him, but I think notsci is practically confirmed town even outside of the interactions with me. for a few reasons:

he maintained Nacho as a weak scum read since D3 start. there's *really* nothing at that point in particular that I couldn't see coming from him as a Nacho partner, but I think it makes enough sense either way given the fact he was preoccupied with me for the most part. the thing is, after we blew up at each other and he read me as town he immediately doubled down on the Nacho read. that's a town thought process and I highly doubt it was faked.

he was the first vote on the Nacho wagon with the reasoning that he was "sheeping you". the thing with this is, you weren't even voting Nacho at that point - and when you did, it wasn't a "to lynch" vote, it was a reaction vote. so if he bussed there, he did it entirely unnecessarily. on the other hand, I could easily enough see it from him-town who has no idea what to think about the game anymore and so he didn't notice you weren't actually pushing Nacho (which would make sense given it was right after the huge shitstorm between him/me). after that, he decided Nacho was scum on his own accord, so the vote makes sense.

in general, I think the progression there was fairly natural. I'd be really surprised if he approached the Nacho read in the way that he did if he was scum with him.

[pieguyn]

1. Um no that's not true, try again. You're being ridiculous. Did I "maintain them as my top two for the entire day" or did I "not really commit to either" ? You can't argue both in the same sentence. That's a contradiction.

no, it's really not

the entire point is that, despite reading both Nacho and Oversoul as scum, you left the door wide open as to which, specifically, you thought was more likely to be scum. this allows you to vote whichever one looks like it's more likely to go through, or move your vote around for strategic reasons (ex: looking like you're open to a Nacho lynch but then voting Oversoul at the end - which is what I think you did here), and so forth. and I think that in this case, there is scum motivation here in that it allowed you to look like you were open to a Nacho lynch, but not actually doing anything to lynch him, which is fairly typical of scum distancing from each other.

2. This also doesn't make sense. You think I was distancing from Nacho, but you also think I didn't want the attention if he got lynched. That's a contradiction.

no, it isn't

the entire point is that you were distancing from him BECAUSE you didn't want to draw negative attention if you got lynched. that is kinda sorta the entire point of distancing. but no, I don't see anything in your posts D3 that indicates that you explicitly would have preferred a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch (which is what I said in my first point).

you maintained both of them as scum reads. you voted Nacho right at the start of D3, then voted Oversoul because of claimgate and for supposedly ignoring your question. then you voted Nacho again for lying about his claim. then you put Oversoul at L-1 at the end. nowhere did you explicitly take a stance either way, ex. "I'd significantly prefer a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch" or "I'd significantly prefer an Oversoul lynch over a Nacho lynch", or attempt to convince anyone on the Oversoul wagon to join you on the Nacho wagon, or anything along those lines.

so where in here am I supposed to get the impression you weren't intending to leave Oversoul open as a lynch option here?

3. You can't argue that my Nacho-push was weaker than my Oversoul and then criticize my Oversoul push in the same sentence. That's a contradiction.

no, it isn't, and you are either misinterpreting or deliberately misrepresenting what I said there. I did not (and never intended to) criticize the reasoning behind your Oversoul push; all I'm saying is that your Oversoul push was significantly stronger than your Nacho push.

[pieguyn]

Hmm... on the topic of bad Nacho votes - what would you think if a player pushed the bandwagon and then unvoted for weak reasoning ? Oh hey that was you...

did you miss the part where I wanted to wait for Tammy to catch up and give her thoughts on the situation re: Nacho and where Nacho informed me I was misreading a part of why I thought he could be scum?

I was pretty clearly trying to work through the read at the end and then Oversoul self hammered before I had much of a chance to do anything about it. I think the progression here is fairly obvious if you read my posts.

[pieguyn]

the thing with this game is I'm very very very sure that both of {notsci, ffery} are town and I don't see myself reversing either of these reads unless something drastic happens. so, *if* either of {Wicked, RC} are town here, they need to convince me that I'm wrong about one of these reads. the exception here is if we happen to be in 10-2-1. (and no, saying that notsci would be capable of faking his reaction to me if we had planned it out as scum does not apply bc I know that situation is impossible)

this is somewhat of a reach out, I suppose.

[pieguyn]

that actually makes a lot of sense.

I'm reading through it again and Wicked had a lot of posts where he kinda sorta token-opposed the RC miller claim, but then he didn't actually vote him until it was too late to do anything about it.

[pieguyn]

Pushes back at notsci's RC read.

I remember him doing this to me too. 154

[pieguyn]

RC, no response to 2956?

[pieguyn]

I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day.

and yet you didn't do anything in terms of actually working with anyone or appealing to anyone to get votes on him - you know, the kind of thing town actually does when trying to get someone lynched

instead, you spent the entire game day arguing with Nacho while jumping back and forth between the Nacho and the Oversoul wagons

I don't particularly care about what your reasoning for hopping back and forth between the Nacho/Oversoul wagons was. at this point, it's more about the big picture than specific reasoning. if it looks like you're just bouncing back and forth between the two wagons, then this would make sense coming from scum regardless of what your reasoning behind it was - and in your case, there is really nothing I can point back to and say "yes, this is a compelling reason for reading Nacho as scum" or "this is a compelling reason for switching wagons", aka I think all of it is easily enough fakeable. the entire crux of your Nacho push was that you didn't believe his RC read flop at the end of D2 and that was it, which is incredibly weak in terms of actual reasoning for him being scum. so no, I don't see anything there that is indicative of you not being scum with him, and arguing back and forth based around what your reasoning behind every single switch was is entirely pointless

I think you're certainly scum via POE. and regardless of said scum read, I think your interactions with Nacho make sense as scum distancing. what, exactly, is the problem here?

and assumed you were saying that my Oversoul push didn't hold water. Am I wrong?

yes. I was not saying that your reason for voting Oversoul didn't hold water, I was saying that part of why you thought Oversoul was scum was bc you didn't buy his reasoning for trying to draw a NK, and that this was significantly stronger than the reasoning behind your Nacho push, which you conveniently spent the entire game day arguing about

[pieguyn]

Obviously something I cannot do because I've been town reading them for most of the game. NS is mostly a POE scum read at this point. Pretty sure RC is in the same boat as I am. All I can do is defend the allegations against myself.

yes, the entire point is that you'd hopefully look into it in more depth and try to figure out why his play actually makes sense coming from scum

cos I don't remotely see it

[pieguyn]

I feel better about RC.

is this you saying you think RC is more likely scum than Wicked or that you don't think RC is scum anymore? if it's the latter, talk to me.

[pieguyn]

my impression of RC's play this game day is just that he's playing the "I have nothing left for this game" card really hard in order to hopefully get town read as resignated town. I'm not reading too much into it and it definitely doesn't make me want to question my reads on either of you.

I don't really have any reservations about Wicked/RC and am more than ready to lynch either if you all are.

[pieguyn]

Besides, wish a scumteam of Nacho and Wicked, I think my entire strategy would've been considerably different. I sure as hell wouldn't have called Wicked town all game and half-assed did the same thing for Nacho.

walk me through this in more detail.

[pieguyn]

Anytime one of you or pie asks me why I'm town, even when you dress the question up all fancy, I will continue to point to my role claim and Tammy's flip.

the problem with this is, there are possibilities such as the scum team having a godfather and so inferring pregame that there might have been a rolecop in the game (which I think notsci? brought up earlier in the game), or you planning on claiming miller and it just being a huge coincidence that there happened to be a rolecop in the game, or so forth. so I don't give a shit about the miller claim

play > roles in cases like this. if you're town here, I need to see it in how you actually played the game.

[pieguyn]

Why would a wicked/redcoyote/nacho team play day 3 the way they did?

I don't think Wicked's play was 100% intentional. I think he was just half-assed distancing.

as for RC, I think it makes sense that both Nacho and Wicked would hard defend/ignore RC given the miller claim, and that he'd in turn attempt to hard push the Oversoul counterwagon hoping to ride off the claim. I also think the push on Vinkah-slot at the start of D3 was a coordinated play.

[pieguyn]

probably Wicked. or they thought RC might have been able to argue his way out of it (which I don't think is actually *that* difficult to do).

I don't think Wicked anticipated the way people reacted to how he played it. I think he thought he'd get read as town for the Nacho push (which is how he's been acting).

[pieguyn]

or they thought RC might have been able to argue his way out of it (which I don't think is actually *that* difficult to do)

as testimony to this, the Team Mafia game where sthar had a huge shitstorm in response to the Mala wagon forming and people (myself included) read him as incompetent town bc there was no way he would do something that ridiculously dumb as scum

but either way I think Wicked is more likely.