Mini 1698: MDCXCVIII [C'est fini!]

[Kublai Khan]

*banter banter banter*

I wanna role and a game start. All of youse better confirm quickly.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
Scum found.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
Scum found.

And how do you know this?

His vote was deliberately not random.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
Scum found.

And how do you know this?

His vote was deliberately not random.

And that makes him scum because...?

Think about it. Random voting is done to elicit some reactions and voting is done based on what reactions seem dishonest. GrayFoxxxx's vote was the opposite. He votes in a way that says "hey, don't be upset, I'm just random voting because I have to. Don't take it personally, the choice is out of my hands."

He's not looking to generate a reaction. He's looking to avoid one.

Therefore scum.

[Kublai Khan]

You missed my post obviously cause I pointed out he wasn't the only one, I don't even think he was the first to vote without a random reason so why is he scum and not the others?

Sorry, I thought I had addressed it. He was the only one using a system to make his choice. The alphabet.

Lots of other people used stupid non-random reasons (or no reasons at all), but GrayFoxxxx was systematic. I don't really have a fancy way to explain it but scum are more likely to approach rvs systematically. And like implosion said, it's an subconcious thing.

Who do you think acted similar to GrayFoxxxx that I should be voting? Then I'll re-explain it a third time so maybe you can finally get it. I mean, it's not that hard. Even GrayFoxxxx got it. He disagrees with it (which is not surprising and not alignment indicative), but he understands.

Why did you wait to long to vote me for "ignoring" your question? I obviously wasn't around for the time you were posting and waiting. Did my absense make me scummier or was it just to "prove" something to Boonskiies?

Also, meant to say this earlier, happy birthday KK!

Thanks (and thanks to Bulbazoor earlier). Got my free Jersey Mike's birthday sub so I'm happy.

[Kublai Khan]

It is always best to have more than one suspect and it's the way it's always done.

Purposefully?

Because it seems like you're missing the point that people are suspicious because you are purposefully trying to direct how everyone should be acting.

[Kublai Khan]

It is always best to have more than one suspect and it's the way it's always done.

Purposefully?

Because it seems like you're missing the point that people are suspicious because you are purposefully trying to direct how everyone should be acting.

how is he purposefully trying to direct how everyone should be acting?

The part where he was telling people that 3 votes was enough and there should be no other votes because we should have multiple suspects?

[Kublai Khan]

I think you misinterpreted his posts cause I just read them again and he absolutely does not do that.

I got that from these:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7060802
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7060886

"3 votes is enough, so people should vote elsewhere because universal agreement means scum is happy with the lynch."

I interpreted the reaction to it (from dragonspawn, Shazam, Necessary Evil, etc..) that they were concerned he was trying to direct votes away from implosion in a manner that suggested he was purposefully trying to direct/control votes. Hence why I said "Because it seems like you're missing the point that people are suspicious because you are purposefully trying to direct how everyone should be acting."

What's your interpretation of everything since you got a different take from all this?

[Kublai Khan]

you find him scummy for giving his opinion of what people should do? Why?

Where did I say I found him scummy?

[Kublai Khan]

So should I bother asking other people questions, or should I just explain to you everything about the question including the background of the game, general mafia theory, a summary of events leading up to each question, and how I feel about any and every potential answers and the varying degree of scumminess inherent of each?

Because I've got more questions, and I kinda feel like you're up my ass scrouging to make a turd of a case. If you truly think I'm scum, give me rope to hang myself and back off for a bit.

[Kublai Khan]

pisskop's unvote & reasoning in 156 are pretty horrible. Why unvote at all on day 1? Why not leave it there until you are ready to move it? It's not like it's hurting implosion.

@Boonskiies - Re: 173, How did you not see Bulbazoor's post (and vote) before posting your vote? Why didn't you vote MarioManiac4 right away?

@Impolsion - you won't see more of him. He posts once and leaves. He doesn't read the thread thoroughly.

What do you mean by this post?

You posted a link to a theme game where you say that MarioManiac4 would constantly want to bus teammates. With that knowledge what didn't you hold onto this knowledge and wait to see who MarioManiac4 would eventually go after?

[Kublai Khan]

One thing in having issues with on the Mario push is no one other than Mario is really pushing back. That always concerns me.

Why? MarioManiac4 hasn't posted much and what he has posted is bizarre in it's reasoning. Why would anyone push back against something which can only generate information?

we posted it at the exact same time. Like literally...check the time stamps. I see the PEdit thing, but I really didn't care enough to change anything.

You didn't care enough to edit, but you cared enough to post a second post?

Also, as I've posted, he won't even really read the thread. It really doesn't matter. He's super frustrating to be scum with, as you can check the private thread of the game we were scum together with.

So we should lynch him on the basis of a scum meta with no equivalent town meta? That's a really weak reason to push this. I'm not even sure why you're brining it up.

[Kublai Khan]

Why unvote at all on day 1? Why not leave it there until you are ready to move it? It's not like it's hurting implosion.

But I wanna say thats stupid, and you should feel ashamed.

An unvoted is a symbolic gesture as well as practical.

As a symbolic gesture, it's only practical as a gesture of appeasement. A subconcious apology.

If implosion was in danger of being lynched, then it makes sense to only unvote. But he's not.

If you don't have a bigger scumread to move your vote to, why not?

[Kublai Khan]

And unvote is the removal of pressure, andm I've been lynched because I kept my vote on a player past its prime in D1 before.

Okay. So you acknowledge that the act had a specific purpose of avoiding unwanted attention (i.e. a lynch). Why call it stupid to notice that?

If it wasnt clear I havent been paying enough attention to the game. This game's boring and slow-going.

And nothing makes the pace pick up like an unvote?

KK's focus on RVS voting is scummy.

This happened before you unvoted implosion. Way before. But now it's scummy and worth calling attention to again?

I'll take "Things pisskop didn't care about until Kublai Khan started questioning him" for $100, Alex.

VOTE: pisskop

[Kublai Khan]

KK's vote is for me catching up to the game?

Well, yeah. I assumed that you were reading the game this whole time. Y'know, to catch scum and stuff. Why weren't you?

@TheDominator37 - No. There's no reason to role claim.

[Kublai Khan]

You act as if we could ever know he was a power role before he died. Why the heck does it matter if he claims a power role? I would hope that nobody who actually possessed that role would counter-claim him, because then his attempt at fishing (assuming he's scum like I think he is) would have been successful. I didn't say I wanted him dead before a claim, particularly. I just don't care if he claims, because I don't think any good can come out of it.

Well, you're clearly focused on whether or not he's lynch material and not at all about night actions and whether or not scum would kill him and how that could be bad for town.

That's a town-tell as far as I'm concerned.

[Kublai Khan]

At what point are you all going to realize that scum doesn't generally work that hard on Day 1?

[Kublai Khan]

Okay. Sorry. Life event got me behind. I'll be caught up and have a big post by tomorrow night.

[Kublai Khan]

Dropping an update. I've got time on my hands. I just re-read through half the game and will finish tomorrow morning.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay. I'm all caught up.

Town: WoodyWoodpecker, Boonskiies, GrayFoxxxx, Shazam
Weaktown: TheDominator37, implosion
Weakscum: Annarchy, Bulbazoor, spice1209
Scum: FA_Q2, pisskop, dragonspawn

The WoodyWoodpecker/Boonskiies slapfight is a town on town squabble. GrayFoxxxx towntold pretty hard in the first half of the game. Shazam gave a strong town-tell as well.

I was never big on the MarioManiac4 wagon (I understand the reasons, but they aren't as strong as they are made out to be). TheDominator37 has been fairly townish, though a little milquetoast.

implosion is in the weak town because of a weird vibe that keeps him from being a full town read. Mostly it's the repeated motif where he has to constantly point out "scum-Khan could do that" which is weird that I'm the only one that gets this treatment. I had to look up if we had any game history and we've only ever been in one game together and I was town. If he could give me the reasoning behind this specific treatment I'd appreciate it, otherwise it feels a little like a "smear/discredit the townie" tactic.

The Annarchy weakscum read comes mostly from Necessary Evil. Necessary Evil's posts were lackluster and his read reasonings were vague. Though it could just be unfocused town. Annarchy has a totally different style, which is great, but I don't agree with many of her conclusions, which is bad.

Bulbazoor is a wildcard at the moment. His weird cadence/formatting, the backtrack, the (possible?) responding to old posts.. I can't even tell if english is his first language.

spicer1209 is in the hole that StubbsKVM dug at the moment. StubbsKVM was a weak scumread. And spice1209 is a non-read. So, it's meh/scum.

pisskop could be scum? I dunno? Maybe? He doesn't seem to care to find scum or lynch them. He's the emo kid of this game. He just wants to be left alone.

FA_Q2's Post 724 is the scummiest post I've ever read. It's one thing to hate a 10 page squabble. But finding both participants individually scummy (where if one turns up town, the other must be scum) is ridiculous.

dragonspawn feels like textbook scum coasting. He's not leading any wagons. He's not pushing or making waves. Here's a quick experiment. Without looking at the votecount, someone tell me who dragonspawn is voting for and why.

Spoiler: answer

It's implosion. And best I can figure it's because he's not "impressed" by him.

VOTE: dragonspawn

[Kublai Khan]

[tunneling]Beetlejuice?[/tunneling]

[Kublai Khan]

Anna/shazam/bulb scum team?

@kahn
What do you think of this?

Naw.

[Kublai Khan]

KK, you have spicer and I mixed up. he replaced NE, I replaced Stubbs.

Whoops. Oh well. Same applies.

[Kublai Khan]

I've been pushing implosion from the beginning. Hard to argue I'm not pushing anyone. And then at the same time say I am.

Can you make a more Inconsistent argument?

Are you pushing for an implosion lynch? Really?

You have 6 posts where you are mentioning implosion. All. Game.

Spoiler: All 6 posts

Unvote

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
I wanted to do this earlier but there was no one else voting him so it wasn't really worth it. Thank you, KK.

Yeah I
Dont like this. Town doesn't need cover for a vote.

VOTE: implosion

Yes, but 3 votes had already been placed on Implosion. I think he should have been trying to find another possible scum at that point.

Shouldn't we find one before we look for another? How do we do that without pushing and getting reactions?

We've barely had any posts from implosion. Let's put some pressure on him and get a better idea of whether he is scum before we start going hunting a partner.

Been looking over implosion some more and I just see more questions. He didn't want to "waste" his vote by voting for gray before he knew whether a wagon could start, but he didn't hesitate being the first vote on woody at the beginning or being the first vote on evil after giving this explanation. So why was voting first on gray a wasted vote but voting first on woody and evil perfectly alright?

I look this over and I see backtracking by someone who is caught making a mistake. It's a sign of a guilty conscience and bad reasoning.

If implosion flips scum we should definitely look closer at woody and Mario. Both have been resisting/defending the push on implosion. On top of that woody especially looks like a good buddy for implosion as scum because it explains why he wouldn't worry about the woody vote creating a wagon. He had no intention of it becoming a wagon.

Just some general thoughts right now.

I like boon so far. Reminds me of my best friend. I'd like to see more from pk.

Some people are like that though. They will swear that the sky is purple when you can both see it's blue. It's no a scum tell though imho

So far my impressions.

Like Khan, boon, shazam. Fa hasn't said a lot but he seems like his town self so I can put.him there right now.

Not terribly impressied with implosion. Also not impressed with woody but I'm leaning more to disliking his style then his alignment right now.

Not very impressed with mario/denominator slot but it's not like a hard core scum.

Pk was pinging me earlier but humankind of going back to null for me.

Everyone else is not giving me a strong impression.

Top scum reads are:

Implosion
Mario slot
Pk
Woody

Top is strongest others not so much.

And if I wasn't pushing for your lynch I might care how you read me.

But as I hope to have you on rope and be free of one scum by the end of the day, why would I care about you reading me?

implosion is your

strongest

scumread. You've parked your vote on him all game for a barely post-RVS thing. You've said your not "impressed" by him (whatever that means). You're not asking him any questions. All you do is just say "I like/dislike that" and ask "Why?" with no followup or analysis. You're acting like you're doing something, but really you're not. You're just... there.

Justify your strong scumread or eat rope.

[Kublai Khan]

Not sure why it quoted both posts.

Because you hit the "Q+" button.

[Kublai Khan]

I was unaware that I needed to repeat myself over and over again to be heard. See I rather prefer to make an argument once than repeat myself to death. He hasn't gotten any better. None of you have made any arguments that are more convincing to me. I'm not obligated to hunt scum the way you want me to. I will hunt as I choose.

You've not made an argument once.

You voted implosion because he explained (or to use your words--"covered") his vote. He explained why he did it in depth.

Six posts later you says that we all need to put pressure on him.

Post 143 shows you re-visiting implosion, ask a rhetorical question, and state your view that he's got a guilty conscience over voting GrayFoxxxx(?). implosion answers your question and explains himself quite well to everyone's satisfaction except you.

3 days later, you're not "impressed" with him and he's your top scumread.

5 days later, you're telling him that you don't care what he thinks.

I mean, it sounds like you've got a super ace in the hole. You're so convince that implosion is scum that you are not willing to consider anything else. That is an unheard of level of certainty on Day 1. And with all that certainty, you make a piss-poor case and are content to wait for people to comb through your iso to find it.

Khan, can we settle for FA today? Dragon, you should hop on too.

I'll hop if this goes nowhere. But I want to call bullshit on people townreading dragonspawn. If dragonspawn had said something like "yeah, I'm not totally into the game, let me change that" then that could be town. But his attitude isn't town. He's going with the flow and pretending to have an opinion on things.

[Kublai Khan]

That is because you know I am town and don't want to be on the wagon at the end of the day when it flips. Town is doing a fine job of trying to lynch me all on its own (and it looks as though the votes are there already as a few players have suggested they will support my lynch). If you were town then you would naturally vote for the person in your scum pile that is most likely to be lynched. Instead you are voting the 'safe' bet with a player that will not flip and you can be off the town lynch.

This whole paragraph is WIFOM to justify a "scumkhan" conclusion.

As scum, I would avoid a wagon on a town with 4 days left to go. For the "town-cred" of voting someone unflipped. Is that your theory?

[Kublai Khan]

That is because you know I am town and don't want to be on the wagon at the end of the day when it flips. Town is doing a fine job of trying to lynch me all on its own (and it looks as though the votes are there already as a few players have suggested they will support my lynch). If you were town then you would naturally vote for the person in your scum pile that is most likely to be lynched. Instead you are voting the 'safe' bet with a player that will not flip and you can be off the town lynch.

This whole paragraph is WIFOM to justify a "scumkhan" conclusion.

As scum, I would avoid a wagon on a town with 4 days left to go. For the "town-cred" of voting someone unflipped. Is that your theory?

Yes, it is.

You are waiting for town to lynch me themselves. You are the one that claimed I posted the scummiest post you have ever read but the lurking case is the one you voted for....

Yes. I just spent several hours re-reading this game and trying to notice longer-term trends that get lost in the day-to-day postings. Such as dragonspawn's active lurking.

You were fairly null/scummish until that super-scummy post. Are you really voting me because you took second place in the scum-lympics?

But hey, I don't care. No matter what I do you'll call it scummy because you're invested and scrambling for a counter-wagon. I am glad that I proved your duel scumreads on WoodyWoodpecker and Boonskiies was bullshit, though.

[Kublai Khan]

So that was fun. It looks like Bulbazoor has dramatically voted himself to L-2 status.

VOTE: FA_Q2

This is the direction I'd rather go for today.

[Kublai Khan]

So that was fun. It looks like Bulbazoor has dramatically voted himself to L-2 status.

VOTE: FA_Q2

This is the direction I'd rather go for today.

did you read the part where bulba slipped

Yeah. I saw what you're talking about.

But Bulbazoor has been clumsily expressing himself all game. I don't think it's the slam dunk you're thinking it is.

[Kublai Khan]

Naw, I think Boonskiies is scummy with that vote on me. I'm low hanging fruit.

Bulbazoor was trying to end the day early by self-hammering. Scum with day talk don't vote a competing wagon when one of them is trying hard to give up.

[Kublai Khan]

That's what I plan on reading for after i get out of work.

Day chat changes the nature of how scum act.

[Kublai Khan]

Whats your analysis of pisskop, implosion?

[Kublai Khan]

I wanna say Boon is probably town, mostly because I think he would have been all in on the bussing Bulb business

In retrospect, I kinda agree with this.

so KK, do you think scum were in constant coordination with Bulb during his end-of-the-day antics? if so does that make you suspect any particular players of coaching him throughout this?

Well, "coaching" isn't germaine due to day chat.

But dragonspawn's Bulbazoor vote (with very little reason/explanation), unvote (after watcher claim), and re-vote (after Bulbazoor had self-voted twice) do stand out. If Bulbazoor was pushing his teammates to bus him because was a goner, dragonspawn was the most accomodating.

There's evidence that he was.

What's the evidence that Bulbazoor was coached?

Possibly a townslip, though. Obviously fakeable, etc.

Oh, fuckballs. That is the worst type of townslip. Fuck.

@dragonspawn - Did you really not read the modpost to end day 1?

[Kublai Khan]

the counter wagon was fa who I was firmly town reading

Why?

[Kublai Khan]

For fuck's sake. I am looking for a reason to justify a townread on you so I can ignore you. And you are refusing to give me anything beyond a single easily fakeable townslip.

Any Johnny Mafioso can justify a read by saying bullshit like "I have a meta" and stuff like "arguments against him are bad" is not the basis for a townread.

Play the game. Open your skull and show me how you think.

[Kublai Khan]

Look, I don't really care about your feelings.

I have strong suspicion that you're scum. You've done stuff in this game that makes me think you're scum. I've explained those things. You're still doing things that raise red flags to me (repeated "honestly" 3 times in a paragraph? Not caring if someone parks a vote? Ugh.). But you made a towntell that, if it's complete sincere, means all that stuff means nothing and I need to move on. But the problem is that your towntell is easily fakeable. So I'm in a bad spot and I really need to figure out if I should stay on you or move on.

You can't just insist you're honest because that's meaningless. Scum would do the same thing. Instead, tell me which games you played with FA_Q2 to establish this meta. Tell me what particular aspects of his play led you to your conclusion. "He does this as town". Show me you are town instead of insisting you're town.

[Kublai Khan]

Ok, dragonspawn. Let's say i vote you and youre voting me. Is it a viable town strategy to just let our votes sit on each other and not speak to each other until deadline approaches and we move our votes somewhere else because we have no support for our wagons?

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah. I just ISO'd myself and Bulbazoor. You guys should probably lynch me. If I was one of you, I'd be on me too.

I'm not scum, but I'm not super important to town so it's not big loss. If you leave me alive I'm only going to be a distraction later on at probably worse timing.

[Kublai Khan]

KK I want to hear your thoughts on pisskop. I have trouble reading him. can you do some analysis on his posts?

I think pisskop is probably scum. It feels like he's played the entire game on the defensive. He only seems to post reads and observations when called on it. I guess it's mostly a playstyle thing, but I can't honestly say I've seen him post anything that helps town (except the Bulbazoor vote).

I just finished a game with him (Micro 491). I started the game there with an overblown RVS case and he (as scum) declared me town. In this game, I posted an overblown RVS case and he called me scummy. I just have a strong sense of dishonesty.

His TheDominator37 vote on Day 2 is objectively horrible, too.

[Kublai Khan]

Well that answers my questions about kk.

Why would my vote on Dom be bad?

Because of stuff like this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7064463 looks like the opposite of a bus.

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, why would bulba's vote concern me at all?

Because Bulbazoor flipped scum? And you're looking for interactions between Bulbazoor and other players for clues to find other scum?

I really don't understand your playstyle if you're town, pisskop.

P.Edit - Not people, just Annarchy. And it's a bad 1v1. I don't want to albatross this game.
P.Edit 2 - Not really parallels, no. If anything I think you were more active in the game you flipped scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Stop it, GrayFoxxxx. spicer1209 has a point. Being the first on a scum wagon does not make you auto-town. His hypothetical is plausible.

[Kublai Khan]

I didnt 'flip' I won.

Dom's posts late yesterday suggest he could have been coaching Dom. They sem pretty obvious to me.

Again, daychat though.

And Bulbazoor switching from full watcher to 1-shot was in reaction to Annarchy's mention that it was possibly non-normal (overpowered?). If he was coached to change his read, then his coach is worse at being scum then he was.

[Kublai Khan]

^ claim, not read.

[Kublai Khan]

Stop it, GrayFoxxxx. spicer1209 has a point. Being the first on a scum wagon does not make you auto-town. His hypothetical is plausible.

Didn't say it wasnt. His point is that it's possible. So what? What wieght does his read have with only possibilities/plausibilities?

His read is weak and I'm not sue why he isnt trying harder.

Again I'm asking ANYONE to show a game where what spicer is claiming has happened.

1) All our reads are based on possibilities and plausibilities? Except for scum, I guess. I'm not understanding this point.
2) Why would he try hard with a weak read? I'm not understanding this point either.
3) First, that's pretty hard to search for. Plus I think someone posted something. And the point of "nobody has a record of something similar happening, therefore it can't happen" isn't a great defense. Or even logically sound.
4) Alcohol is possibly making me understand things less. It does taste good though.

[Kublai Khan]

Are you claiming i bussed bulba and now am bussing dom?

I missed this.

No, I do't think that TheDominator23 is scum at all. I think you could/would easily buss Bulbazoor snf are now pushign a bad vote/case on TheDominator23.

[Kublai Khan]

If KK isn't scum which one(maybe 2?) of boon/ww/implosion was the scum on the counter wagon?

Also, who is this question to?

Because it's base on assumption (opposing counter-waong MUST have one scum). Of those three it's tough because I have townreads on all of them.

[Kublai Khan]

1. JUST on possibilities though? No logic behind it? Which leads me to 3.

3. MY POINT. It's a reach just to say "this could happen so here's my read" like spice is.
Also you want to bring in logic when I defend myself, but stay with the "plausibilities" with spicers read. Be consistent.

2. Spice has only really pressured me off of hopes and dreams. No logic.

If Spices best scum read can be summed up as "anything is possible" than fuck yes he needs to dig down deep, grab tight, and try harder.

You';re losing me, GreyFoxxxx. You seemed logical before, now it seems like you're over-defending something that seems like it would be trivial to you if you were town.

I mean, I'll re-read you and spicer1209 tomorrow with a clearer head, but I'm not seeing it here and now.

[Kublai Khan]

Are you claiming i bussed bulba and now am bussing dom?

I missed this.

No, I do't think that TheDominator23 is scum at all. I think you could/would easily buss Bulbazoor snf are now pushign a bad vote/case on TheDominator23.

I mean I wasnt quite directing this at you but I beg to differ. Ill get on this tomorrow. Or something

ok

[Kublai Khan]

I mean, I'll re-read you and spicer1209 tomorrow with a clearer head, but I'm not seeing it here and now.

Yeah. Still not seeing why spicer1209's posts are horrible. GrayFoxxxx's reaction to them with mockery, hostility, and bullying insistence makes him look bad. 1122 & 1123 don't look like town reactions at all.

@GrayFoxxxx - How does it cast aspersions on you to say you use the word "subconcious" a lot?

@pisskop - Why did you say you searched it (subconscious) when you didn't?

@TheDominator37 - Would you mind explaining your implosion scumread?

The obvious movement here is Kublai Khan going down. I really don't like his take on things, and the way he goes about his pushes; it seems forced.

Hey Boonskiies, where is this coming from? It's one thing to say I'm scummy based on interactions between Bulbazoor and myself, but why are you saying it's a general thing about my playstyle when you never mentioned anything like it previously?

Will Khan make up his mind with his contradicting strong pushes?!

Which pushes were contradicting?

@KK - What do you think of GrayFoxxxx? You two buddies? What do you think about the potential GF/Pisskop connection?

I've got a much lesser townread on him than I did yesterday. Also, no I'm not buddies with GrayFoxxxx since I'm town.

And I've gotten a bit townier read on pisskop in the past few pages.

@implosion - Why open with a cold spicer1209 vote to open Day 2? Is it only based on Necessary Evil?

[Kublai Khan]

I was bullying Spicer because his first post about me used the term "Fucking Retarded". Notice how I'm pretty polite to anyone else?

Well, could you not? Because everything about your approach suggests that you're attacking his person instead of his arguments. Possibly because his arguments have substance.

Those posts you highlighted, can you go into more detail?.

Well, 1122 is massively WIFOM. You're bragging about something for town cred simply because there is suspicion on you. When anything questions it and says that maybe it's possible, you got hostile and mocking.

1123 is a post that is dogmatic. It's basically a policy lynch. ("Lynch All Liars")

Also, it's no the content of what Pisskop said, it's just the fact he lied, and then lied again to cover it up.

See, I thought pisskop's reaction when called out on it was scummier than the lie itself.

[Kublai Khan]

Also don't ignore his posts about bulb.

I think if there was a busser on bulbs wagon it is Piss

What do you mean a busser on bulb? Bulb flipped town. How can anyone bus a townie?

This post is really telling. I just can't tell what it's saying yet.

??? Really?

That's the towntell post. Scum would know a scum member died but town might be oblivious if they didn't read the modpost closely.

Why suddenly bring this up after he votes you?

[Kublai Khan]

I can't agree that spicer was using reasoning. Just possibles. That gets town no where.

"Gray could be scum so he is", and my disagreement with that, is the whole case against me.

I thought his case against you was this:

Right now my biggest scum read is Greyfox. I dont like this Piss is lying crusade he is on. It seems a little too forced and is making a mountain out of a ant hill. I also didnt like how he responded to Kahns accusation earlier in the game on post 80 . It was a vague and very weak rebuttal. It seemed as if he had a shoo fly dont bother me attitude about it. I just feel like if he was town he would have explained the better way to avoid reactions and said why his analysis was false. Pretty much all his posts are like this. A lot of statements but not a lot of explanation into those statements. To me scum never explain shit because its easy for them to fuck up that way

Which chronologically makes this inaccurate:

I bragged about being obv town before there was really any "suspicion".

Which doesn't answer the question of "why brag at all?"

Why does it havr to be a policy lynch? He lied, it's one of my best scum reads. His interactions with bulb also look scummy. I'm not claiming this is a fact, but besides you, it's my best scum pick.

Well, it amounts to policy lynch because you've been asked to show the scum benefit for the lie (vs. lazytown) and you haven't. You adamantly insist that pisskop lied, scum lie, therefore pisskop is scum. That's a policy lynch.

Your interactions with Bulb were the worst though. Along with your vote. Was it boon who persuaded you, or did you really think FQ was scum?

I thought FA_Q2 was scum. I explained why. FA_Q2 even complained that I wasn't voting him.

Also don't ignore his posts about bulb.

I think if there was a busser on bulbs wagon it is Piss

What do you mean a busser on bulb? Bulb flipped town. How can anyone bus a townie?

This post is really telling. I just can't tell what it's saying yet.

??? Really?

That's the towntell post. Scum would know a scum member died but town might be oblivious if they didn't read the modpost closely.

Why suddenly bring this up after he votes you?

So its possible I bussed my scum partner.

But not possible for DS to say that as scum?

This logic hurts my soul.

WTF? Are you not reading the game? Like, do you just ignore anything that isn't addressed to you?

I had a back and forth with dragonspawn about it. I have and had massive reservations about dragonspawn but I've convince myself that it's certainly possible for him to be that level of horribly bad mafia player and moved on.

The more you ask me to believe that it's impossible that you would bus a partner, the more I believe it's possible.

[Kublai Khan]

@pisskop - Why did you say you searched it (subconscious) when you didn't?

Umm I did? Thats kind of why I mentioned it.

But then why'd you get it wrong?

Why are we drawing on this? And why do you keep implying I

could

be scum but never moving further with it? That is scummy. Its probing for a lynch.

I'm "drawing" on this because you're very short & hostile with your answers on the subject. Like, why do I have to ask the question I just asked?

The thing itself isn't that big of a deal. The fact that you question and throw shade on anyone that questions you about it is ridiculous. You did a thing and got a different result than what you should have gotten. It either means you didn't do the thing, which means you should explain why you lied, or you fucked up doing a simple thing which you should explain how you managed that. Super easy, not unreasonable request for info. Really not sure why this takes several days to still figure out.

Also, "probing for a lynch"? What does that even mean?

[Kublai Khan]

I usually keep basic notes, and since I dont read through multiple times unless I have to my notes are perception based and affected by hindsight.

Okay, fair enough. That feels honest.

[Kublai Khan]

KK's first reads list had you (GrayFox) as town, saying you "towntold pretty hard" early on. I agree with this, but I've also had doubts of whether I was right there, so I'm not sure if that's inconsistency by KK or just second-guessing himself

FWIW, the hard towntell from GrayFoxxxx was Post 210. He bolded a post from Necessary Evil saying the word "investigation" to make some point.

My reasoning is that scum would be more likely to note the word privately and not call attention to it publicly.

[Kublai Khan]

Where's WoodyWoodpecker's slot?

[Kublai Khan]

Why are you spoilering at all?

Also, why do you keep making like 8 different posts?

[Kublai Khan]

KK what are your reads and why?

Annarchy, WoodyWoodypecker, & Boonskiies are townreads.
I have a much townier feeling about GrayFoxxxx after revisiting my towntell and the meta-info that GrayFoxxxx does certain stupid things as town.
Dragonspawn is on the townside due to his stupid easily fakeable towntell. Which he's not showing any signs of being clever enough to fake it.
TheDominator37 is on the townside because I don't think the Bulbazoor push on MarioManiac4 was bussing.
spicer1209 - I have a townfeeling because we seem to be on a similar wavelength.
pisskop has been better. But I couldn't say I have a town-feeling about him with any confidence.

implosion is most suspicious at the moment. He's not asking any questions or doing any sort of scum-hunting. He's just stating vague wishy-washy feelings (check out 1153) and just seems to be idling in neutral and waiting for the day to pass. He's also currently voting for pisskop, whom he recently called a gut town read.

• Implosion has leaped to the top for me; I flat out can't see Bulb/Implosion's interactions as Scum v Scum.

Could you explain this? Because I'm really not seeing any major interactions between the two. Bulbazoor mentions implosion as town and implosion had Bulbazoor as a very weak town. Plus towards the end of the day (pre-claim), implosion is makes a weak defense of Bulbazoor (Post 939.

Are you seeing something I'm not?

[Kublai Khan]

Lol

Dota?

[Kublai Khan]

Bulbazoor already flipped scum

[Kublai Khan]

How far have you read, Persivul?

[Kublai Khan]

@Percivul - Why did you role claim for no reason?

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: KK

Talk to me. Compare your behavior from Knight Errant. K thanks.

Ha. That game actually is very similar to this game. Scum-lynch on Day 1 that I vocally stayed off of. Then spent the rest of the game in a haze of suspicion and eventually was lynched in endgame to let scum win.

It's pretty much why I want to be lynched today based on how scummy I look vis-a-vis Day 1 with Bulbazoor. I've spent the whole day questioning my reads and exploring my suspicions. But I'm ready to be lynched whenever you guys want.

[Kublai Khan]

What? Giving up isnt playing to any wincon

I already explained it in Post 1191.

Scum won't NK me because I'm a mislynch target. And town who scum-read me will be locked in a tunnel and will disagree with any scum-reads I have. At best I will survive until endgame and get mislynched there.

My giving up helps town.

[Kublai Khan]

Current vc:

GrayFoxxxx [2]: Boonskiies / spicer1209
pisskop [1]: Annarchy
TheDominator37 [1]: pisskop
Kublai Khan [4]: GrayFoxxxx / Titus / implosion / TheDominator37
Titus [1]: dragonspawn
Abstaining [1]: Kublai Khan

[Kublai Khan]

Has kk claimed?

Vanilla townie.

[Kublai Khan]

KK has pretty much stopped posting. If he was town he should have been scum hunting alot more. Instead he throws his hands up and gives us WIFOM

Yeah, but I'm town who wants to be lynched.

VOTE: Kublai Khan

[Kublai Khan]

KK could you give final reads?

Nothing much changed since my last reads. The game has just been going round and round.

Spoiler: reads

Annarchy, WoodyWoodypecker, & Boonskiies are townreads.
I have a much townier feeling about GrayFoxxxx after revisiting my towntell and the meta-info that GrayFoxxxx does certain stupid things as town.
Dragonspawn is on the townside due to his stupid easily fakeable towntell. Which he's not showing any signs of being clever enough to fake it.
TheDominator37 is on the townside because I don't think the Bulbazoor push on MarioManiac4 was bussing.
spicer1209 - I have a townfeeling because we seem to be on a similar wavelength.
pisskop has been better. But I couldn't say I have a town-feeling about him with any confidence.

implosion is most suspicious at the moment. He's not asking any questions or doing any sort of scum-hunting. He's just stating vague wishy-washy feelings (check out 1153) and just seems to be idling in neutral and waiting for the day to pass. He's also currently voting for pisskop, whom he recently called a gut town read.

Titus reminding me of the Knights game really reminded me how much it sucks to be in an untown position and eventually lose the game.