Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[Persivul]

Hello. Will catch up tomorrow. Elevator speeches on the main wagons would be helpful. Thanks.

[Persivul]

Notes pp 1-5

RC tries to manufacture something on fire in RVS. Thesp comes in with 3 questions which are pretty good. For me: About a dozen games, pretty active but idk the posts per day, no. Nether thinks the questions may be scummy. Dominator says he's scum. So does pistachio. Dom references another active game - that's against the rules dude. Dom as expected claims scum claim was a joke. 63 bad post by RC but I expect that. Alch jumps on fire, just saying "I can see Firebringer being scum here." Don't like that, but the defense against RC re: Thesp mitigates it. Funny that RC keeps up the fire bit when fire townread RC for it. Alch turns on RC, town points for alch. RC is obviously reaching on Thesp but again that's RC. Don't expect him to act logically folks. RC OMGUS's Alch. OK, I told myself I'd mostly let RC go in this game but this is ridiculous: 80: "Thesp's deliberate attempt to undo progress made in the game" refers to Thesps first post, which was number 17 overall. The only progress made by post 17 was in your mind, RC. All Alone repeats his RVS vote - could indicate he's not really reading the game, just trying to appear to be scum hunting. Firebringer: you only put the number in the Post tags, not thw word post. Your links all go to the first post. duppin to RC: "I think your read on Thesp makes sense" Why? RC: you don't get to unilaterally declare that RVS is over. Deal with it.

[Persivul]

To those who haven't played with RC before: some people play to win. Some people play just to play. RC is in the latter group. He's playing to get out of his own mind for awhile. So, if nothing of note has happened, he'll invent a controversy just to keep himself at the center of attention. Unfortunately he's probably town. I've seen him play against his wincon as town, including self-hammering as town (which should be bannable IMO).

Please just ignore him for now.

Notes pp 6-10
All Alone still on Thesp and no one else. Eventi enters and attacks RC. Thesp is oh so polite and then safely votes inactive players. 138 Who is duppin responding to? He basically repeats Nether's thoughts on RC and RC's wagon. He's pinging me as scum trying to post just enough to get by. OK I kinda agree with thesp in 139...BUT you can pressure active players at the same time. quaroth in 150 - seriously? Fire making an associative on RC/Nether is bad. Skip a bunch of RC/fire stuff. Nether moves to eventi. Eventi calls out nether for defending RC, but it sounds forced. Another low-content post by thesp. pistachio isn't contributing. eventi says nether was buddying RC from the beginning - this is obviously false, as nether appears to be in his right mind, and no one in their right mind would buddy RC. Dom links nether/eventi...wtf? Alch votes Duppin...nice , nether's chasing the obvscum, but I'm more interested in duppin and thesp at this point. And speaking of thesp...222 is another low-content post, mostly just agreeing with other people. Oh and look, duppin appears less than an hour after alch's vote (unlike nether I do think that timeframes sometimes give real info). duppin says he's on vacation - the v/la ribbon is there for a reason, use it. Netherspite wagon: Quaroath, TheDominator37, eventi...yuk. All Alone 241...seriously? People can look for 2-person associatives in a 3-scum setup (although associatives at this point are crap anyway). Wtf is 244? Dom should NOT be allowed to use a Steelers avatar.

[Persivul]

1. Today, we lynch eventi.

I tried posting from my phone on my trip home from vacation at a rest stop... let's try to not read into what it's obviously a mistake.

RC and Nether are butthurt that I attacked them and TheDevistator is just a clown, but Thesp is calculated and manipulative. When I am lynched and flip town remember how I got here.

I definitely will if it comes to that.

[Persivul]

@nether: who would be your net lynch choice after eventi?

[Persivul]

Notes pp 11 - 15
All ALone still focused on Dom. Don't like duppin's 251. Dom self votes? Should be forced to use a Cleveland avatar...you're a disgrace. I'm really not liking thesp. His posts lack real original content but sound reasonable. If he's scum, he's the kind that's hard to lynch. At this point I think the cop should investigate thesp tonight. Duppin makes a more substantive post but it's mostly based on pre-flip assicatives. Good entrance by davesaz. I agree that the scum reads coming up seem too easy. Oh wow, forgot pistachio was in this game, but he's like that. eventi's 290 seems sincere for some reason. duppin, way to put pressure on the guy already under pressure. Where are these votes on nether coming from? If he's scum, he's doing a good job of towning it up. Currently preferring a dom lynch to eventi. eventi is sounding like a town who screwed up and is resigned to the mislynch, while dom sounds like panicked scum, and either one would provide info. wow, nether is leading wagon. SNAP - dom claims the idiocy was all a trap!

p-edit: nether, I meant today,

instead

of eventi.

[Persivul]

Notes pp 16 -

Dom doesn't explain the reactions he used for his reads, so the gambit claim falls flat. "Reactions, reads, if you don't believe me look at their ISOs" is a cop-out. It's your argument, you need to provide the quotes that support it. Conspicuous by his absence is RC.

OK, one question to all of you...

WhereTF is the Dom wagon?

Not a single vote? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Persivul]

Notes on eventi ISO:

132 - good PBPA on RC. I disagree with conclusion based on past experience, but someone in their first game with him could easily see it this way. Nether says this looks opportunistic, but I disagree. He did the work and laid it out for review. You're allowed to find someone scummy after others have.

179 - I didn't like this on first read, but in context of above it's reasonable. And as noted before, I sometimes find posts suspicious based on the speed of reply. I don't think that about nether here, because he's a frequent poster. It concerns me more when a lurker comes immediately out of the woodwork when pressured. But, it's not unreasonable for eventi to note this.

180 & 184 - Reasonable replies to thesp

205 - shows flexibility regarding RC. Shows that nether was indeed defending RC pretty consistently. I hadn't clicked on the links before, now I have and they support the case. Repeats that he's not claiming scum team and no longer scum reading RC, but is concerned nether is buddying with RC.

Some off topic stuff, more discussion of the timing issue.

I previously commented that yes, I would remember 290, as thesp has been pinging me this whole game.

383 - Yep, exactly what I thought.

421 sounds sincere - much better than dom, that's for sure.

I'm not seeing scum in this ISO. I disagree with some of his points, agree with others, but the important thing is that either way he backs them up.

[Persivul]

Per just hammer eventi already

There's a day and a half left and I just replaced in. I'm taking an eventi hammer as a scum claim at this point.

[Persivul]

I don't remember seeing a case against Netherspite that I could understand. IIRC, I would townread him for the points that were made. That might be part of the reason I was scumreading eventi.

Yes, that's what I did on first read. Check my notes on eventi's ISO. The guy looks town to me, even when I disagree with him.

[Persivul]

Hi!
I am a bit paranoid about you being undetectable scum after your performance in the game I was modding I hope you got town role PM.

Yeah, I should get a Scummy for that game if I do say so myself! My proudest mafia moment...

[Persivul]

@Persivul

Who would you lynch over

eventi

for today?

First choice is dominator. Second choice is firebringer.

How would you interprete his (

eventi

) scum flip? His town flip?

IDK, I haven't thought that far in advance, except for the previously stated bit that his town flip would look bad for thesp. I suppose it would look bad for you as well, although I'm currently thinking you two are TvT.

[Persivul]

And again, in case it was missed in my catchup, thesp was pinging me the whole time. His posts sound reasonable but tend to lack original content. This is the kind of scum that's tough to catch, so I think he'd be a

good target for the cop investigation tonight

.

[Persivul]

If you got scum role PM you will be scum tough to catch as well
Well, I think we'll have to sort you out later.

That's fine. The cop could investigate me, but in that case, the doc should also protect me. I'm stepping on more toes than thesp, who is oh so polite and careful, and so if I'm town and my reads are on I'm a likely NK target. No sense wasting a cop investigation if I'm taking a bullet anyway.

[Persivul]

Ok lynch eventi Because he is scum and if you still think I am scum you can invest me tonight

This post pings my scumdar...

Pings? It should set it ablaze. If dom is scum, he knows he's easily lynchable, but this way he would out the cop, and since it's a macho it would be dead that night.

[Persivul]

I can switch to TheDominator if people will actually join that train this time.

OK, I've read your ISO (not difficult to do) and like eventi, you come off better than on the chrono read. So, vote dom and all will be well with the world.

VOTE: Dominator

[Persivul]

Would certainly be willing to switch to TheDominator37, but it looks like that wagon has entirely evaporated.

Please do so, that wagon should come back, and it happens a vote at a time.

[Persivul]

I absolutely do not like cop/doc directing. Super super super negative points to Persivul for that.

I don't like cops who waste investigations on obvscum who are likely to be lynched anyway, and I see that happen too often.

[Persivul]

Persivul in summary peopel think Eventi is scum based on his interactions with Nether and that they see he was "opportunistic scum" for jumping on Radiant wagon earlier in the day.

None of these I think are valid. So far Nether has been failing since the beginning pointing out flaws and if he isn't scum he is at least bad town.

I don't have major town read on Eventi, I just don't trust this train at all btw before anyone says I am "defending" or w/e

Fair enough, I largely agree.

[Persivul]

What's PBPA?

Post by post analysis.

What are your thoughts on daves and duppin? Their reads seem easy to me.

Lean town on each. As noted, I didn't like duppin on first read but he comes across better in ISO.

[Persivul]

Per just hammer eventi already

Ok lynch eventi Because he is scum and if you still think I am scum you can invest me tonight

This sounds to me like scum worried his wagon might come back. Anyone read it differently?

[Persivul]

@eventi

Could you summarize your case on me again?

@eventi

You didn't answer.

I'm not going to. Why are you asking?

Because I believe you can't really answer.

In saying "summarize your case on me

again

," you're acknowledging he's presented a case on you already, so why should he repeat it? Look it up. I did, and reference some of it in my ISO analysis of him.

[Persivul]

@Persivul

Do you have any town games where you replaced in during D1 ?
Mind linking if so?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61639

Note that I replaced into a hot slot in that one.

[Persivul]

There's a day and a half left and I just replaced in. I'm taking an eventi hammer as a scum claim at this point.

With 18 hours left, this is rescinded. Looks like everyone set their vote some time ago and don't really care anymore.

[Persivul]

We actually have < 5 hours left now, regardless of the timezone.

Per mod's last post 447 we have over 15 hours.

[Persivul]

I'll restate the reasons I'm voting you:
1. Your opportunistic vote on

RadiantCowbells

.

As noted previously, it wasn't opportunistic. He made his case.

3. You insisting on your vote despite there are no reasons to keep it anymore.

Pot-kettle-black.

[Persivul]

Unofficial VC:

Eventi (6): Nether, pist, dom, dave, dupp, thesp
Nether (2): Alch, fire
Fire (1): Ank
Pers (1): Alone
Dom (3): Pers, dom, RC

Ank and Alone, your lone votes aren't accomplishing anything with less than a day left in phase.

[Persivul]

And yes, I am aware that you were 'scumreading' him before but previously you thought that I'm an easier lynch and voted me.
As soon as his wagon gained some momentum you instantly switched back.

So what? Lots of people do this. You can't possibly scum read them all for it.

[Persivul]

Nether, does it concern you at all that out of 6 people on the eventi wagon, you're the only one active in discussion as the phase winds down?

[Persivul]

@Persivul

We can argue for years about whether it was opportunistic or not.
For me, it was. Making a case to have an excuse for your opportunistic vote does not make it any less opportunistic.
Under opportunistic I understand a vote on a player who is most likely to get lynched.

So what's the threshold? Who on my train should move off, since it's the most popular train? Since there's no valid reason to be on the most popular train, I suggest the last three to join mine should move their vote elsewhere

This is a statement that will come back and bite you in the ass for the rest of the game. Are you sure you want to make it?

Oh snap, good point, how did I miss that?

[Persivul]

Your defense of eventi looks interesting though. I'm now even more sure I want to see his flip for the information purpose.

I'm starting to get concerned about you. You're implying that if he flips red then I'm scummy. But, you know from my meta that as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to rescue a scum partner who got himself into heavy trouble. It would be much better scum play to scum read him and bus him.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: TheDominator

Eh not sure what to make of TheDominator and his "play". Very convenient.
But I don't see this train picking up at the moment, so I will put my vote on eventi instead.

VOTE: eventi

Nether, is this a scummy opportunistic vote?

[Persivul]

@Persivul

The difference is he ain't really that caught.
Yes some of the votes on his wagon are worrying me. It could be bussing.
I don't see why wouldn't you try to save him - you almost succeeded in derailing his wagon. The only active person on the wagon is me like you correctly noticed so a bit more attempts to discredit me from you and

eventi

and you're done.

Except I'm town, and I want a flip. I will vote eventi if I have to to get one, and I suspect there's scum on his wagon counting on that and so just remaining silent.

How about the thesp vote on eventi? Opportunistic and scummy?

[Persivul]

eventi, do you read nether as scummy, or stubborn town?

[Persivul]

Unofficial VC:

Eventi (6): Nether, pist, dom, dave, dupp, thesp
Nether (2): Alch, fire
Fire (1): Ank
Pers (1): Alone
Dom (3): Pers, eventi, RC

Ank and Alone, your lone votes aren't accomplishing anything with less than a day left in phase.

Fixed - had dom listed twice

[Persivul]

Per the most recent VC we have 12 hours.

[Persivul]

Your defense of eventi looks interesting though. I'm now even more sure I want to see his flip for the information purpose.

I'm starting to get concerned about you. You're implying that if he flips red then I'm scummy. But, you know from my meta that as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to rescue a scum partner who got himself into heavy trouble. It would be much better scum play to scum read him and bus him.

This post bugs me to no end.

Why?

[Persivul]

Actually, I read through Persivul's posts throughout the last few pages and all of them look hollow. It's really disconcerting.

If you want to see something hollow, read your own ISO. You can do so in about 20 seconds.

[Persivul]

It's self-meta that would be trivial to subvert. I can't tell yet whether it's a vague attempt to avoid suspicion or a white knight yet though.

I agree that self-meta is worthless, but I directed this to nether, who has acknowledged that he's using meta analysis on me. He hasn't disputed it, and I doubt he will. He modded a game in which I replaced in as scum, and lynched my partners on D2 and D3, but then went on to win.

[Persivul]

It's easy to look hollow when you're on a tablet for most of your posts. It's much harder to look this hollow when you're posting as much as you do.

It's easy to coast by as scum and point the finger at active players if people let you get away with this attitude.

[Persivul]

Second on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6990618

First on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6996897

This is in a game that Nether modded. So, when Nether notes that I'm defending eventi, it should be an indicator to him that I'm town, regardless of how eventi flips.

[Persivul]

@Persivul

I found similarities in how you entered the game in a scummy slot with the wordy posts that made the consensus shift significantly.

First, I also entered the town game I linked to with wordy posts.

Second, I haven't made consensus shift significantly in this game. eventi had 6 when I came in, he still does.

Third...it pretty much sucks that you bring up my meta to indict me and no one has a problem with it...yet when I then defend with meta, duppin and ank view it badly, and say

I'm

the one bringing it up.

I do no expect you to lynch your buddies in every scumgame since that game I was modding, that would be stupid.

Would it be smart or stupid for scum!Pers to replace in and quickly make a hard defense of an L-1 scum buddy?

[Persivul]

OK, meta can be used to attack someone, but that person cannot dispute that attack. Got it.

[Persivul]

So, nether says I played the same way as scum in a game he modded, but my linking to that game to dispute his unsupported claim is "very defensive."

And regarding the town game I linked to, that was at nether's request.

[Persivul]

The issue is scope. The situation you brought up is exactly that, one you brought up. Nether hadn't said anything about you bussing until you made your post. You're trying to discredit a point by lowering the scope and arguing from that scope with a point that is inherently null the moment you point it out. Then, when you get challenged on it, you try to discredit them too.

Nether didn't say anything specific at all. He offered an ambiguous and unsupported opinion. I point to specifics that can actually be analyzed objectively. And you like his bit better.

[Persivul]

Heck with it, nothing's going to change. I hope you flip green for me eventi!

VOTE: eventi

[Persivul]

eventi - you bastard (assuming you're telling the truth)! Well done though, and I still don't think nether's case was good.

[Persivul]

@Persivul

Please do not disappear, I'm curious about your opinion on the 'flip'.

Assuming he's scum, there's at most one scum on his wagon, and likely not even that. I have to agree with duppin that, excluding me, it will be a decent town block to work from.

[Persivul]

I actually want to hit up Dominator the most for that "clear's Thesp's name" comment.

I thought that was odd too.

OTOH, maybe Dom's onto something. His main scum reads after the supposed gambit were eventi and alchemist. I think alch needs some attention tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Well done though, and I still don't think nether's case was good.

I still think I couldn't explain why I felt he's scum good enough.
May be it's language barrier idk.
Something in his early posts pinged me hard and I coudn't get rid of a feeling that he's scum.

There's nothing wrong with voting a feeling, as long as you don't expect me to follow it.

[Persivul]

I agree with this. The twilight posts point to Netherspite as Town, and even more so to RC as Town.

Agreed. eventi's twilight ploy did a lot of good. I mostly thought nether was a townie caught in tunneling, and the twilight discussion solidified this. Nw also leaning town on you for picking up on it.

[Persivul]

There was some debate over whether or not Persivul was acting like he did in his scum-game. Nether said he was because of his entrance, Pers said he wasn't because in the previous game he voted to lynch both of his buddies.

I was online when phase started but purposely waited to see who would push me despite the fact I was vindicated by the flip. Here it is, and I'm glad it's pistachio. I've played twice with him. Once he was town, once he was scum, and there isn't much difference. This is a nice indicator.

Two things:

Three actually, but who's counting.

1. I was playing that game too, and he only voted his buddies after they turned up mafia after cop investigation.

There was no cop investigation of eventi and I voted him, so this indicates I'm town.

2. Eventi flipped town. Since we don't know who the scum are, we don't know if Persivul is defending them or bussing them, so at this point, it's a moot argument.

I bucked the consensus and fought to save a person from lynch, and that person flipped green. That's not a moot point, that's a town indicator.

3. I thought it was weird that Pers went from "hammering eventi is scum" to "now that we don't have much time left, I take that back, hammering is good but I'm not going to hammer yet" to finally hammering eventi, the town player.

And I'm more sure you're scum. This behavior is very common on D1. D1 lynches frequently end up being compromises as deadline approaches in order to get information. And the information has been very helpful.

I will probably vote Persivul today.

In my experience it's scum who say things like this - float a trial balloon and see how it goes over.

[Persivul]

Duppin you think that scum see Dominator ad an easy lynch. People are easy lunches because they look scummy. So you're admitting that he looks scummy. Why do you then town read him?

[Persivul]

Pistachio town game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62219

Pistachio made RVS vote then changed it 4 times D1.

Pistachio scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62222

Pistachio made RVS vote, never changed it.

This game: made RVS vote, changed it once to eventi.

So, her D1 voting pattern was much closer to her scum game than her town game.

[Persivul]

What I was saying was that you made a big deal about how you always bus your scum buddies and if eventi was scum, you'd be voting for him.

No, I said that I don't go out of my way to protect my scum buddies. If they get themselves into trouble, they're on their own. In diffusion, I made a mild deflection for NM early, but once he was hot I dropped it. For Jazzmyn I made no defense, even before the investigative results.

[Persivul]

Bla bla bla except eventi flipped town.

Yes, eventi flipped town - after you railroaded him. I'd think you'd refrain from condescending remarks for awhile. Just sayin'...

[Persivul]

Really not liking the way duppin is putting words in nerher's mouth.

[Persivul]

Duppin can you reconcile your current town read on dom with your numerous scum reads pin him d1? You were saying one of eventi or dom is scum...eventi flipped green...d2 you suddenly say we won't be lynching dom.

[Persivul]

Um, we are not going to lynch TheDominator (at least not right now). That train is most likely scum driven.
I thought TheDominator was town, but I revaluated him after eventi flipped town.

His reaction to eventi during the end phase of the day also felt very genuine.

I actually do think he is town, but his play yesterday was very questionable.
Anyway, let us be honest guys. What train did you expect scum to push on today? TheDominator's (if he wasn't scum obviously).

I do not like this train, and if you are town you need to figure out who the scum (could be more) is between:
RC, Alchemist and Nether.

The only specific reason I've seen you give for your 180 on dominator is bolded above. Can you cite the post numbers that led top such a dramatic change?

[Persivul]

You already asked me once and I answered you. (#663)

You said: "His playstyle screams desperate townie to me. I don't see him being aligned with anyone. I liked his interaction with eventi yesterday during the end."

Again, what specific posts of interaction with eventi led to your complete reversal on him?

[Persivul]

@duppin: look at it from my POV. Check your ISO - you made a lot of firm scum reads on dom D1. D2 you make a complete reversal - not just scum to null, but scum to town - and start a 1v1 inquisition of nether, who voted dom. This looks extremely suspicious and so far your answers have been very weak. It looks to me like your interrogation of nether is an attempt to cover up a D1 distancing ploy gone awry.

[Persivul]

And yes, you did put words in my mouth:

I agree, and in fact as I was reading duppin I was thinking

he's completely putting words in nether's mouth

, then you said the same thing.

[Persivul]

Sure it is WIFOM and whatever

This is about all you've said today that I agree with.

[Persivul]

RC I think you just confused Duppin with Persivul.

I was wondering about that myself, but RC changes his vote a lot anyway so I didn't bother asking.

[Persivul]

Part of me says to wait on dominator until tomorrow and go for less obvious scum today, but overall I think we'll get good info from a dom lynch.

VOTE: dominator

[Persivul]

Ima VT btw

If so you did a spectacularly bad job of it.

[Persivul]

Eventi let on that the scum claim was false a couple posts before this but I forgot to quote it. Persivul is just about the only one other than me who caught it -- assuming I'm reading this post correctly.

No, I hadn't caught it at that point. As eventi continued to toy with Nether - and if you pay attention he took some really good shots at him - I started to become suspicious, but still wasn't sure until the flip. IMO Nether believed eventi, and Nether's behavior in twilight gives me a town read on him. Also on RC. IIRC alchemist picked up on this too.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: FireBringer
VOTE: TheDominator37

I like a bunch of evanti's recent posts, so here is where my vote stays.

FireBringer > Persivul is my scumlist currently, though.

I'm liking Nether less and less as time goes on for all this emphasis on information from lynches.

Why did you have your vote on someone not in your scum list, if not to get information from that lynch?

[Persivul]

Because the deadline was basically on top of us and not voting for either of the two wagons was a waste of time.

And why would it be a waste of time? Because we wouldn't get much information without a flip.

Your actions show that you have the same view on this as Nether, so it's interesting that you criticized him for that view.

[Persivul]

Act like an idiot get reactions and it worked amazing
I still need to look at who soft read me
Eventi and alchemist definitely scum and rc and nether are definitely town

You voted for someone not on your scum list because you wanted to get information. There's nothing wrong with that per se - compromise lynches are very common on D1. But, you shouldn't criticize Nether for saying that he does the same.

[Persivul]

People might take you more seriously if you had more posts than mod. Don't expect instant interaction from others when you haven't been interacting much yourself.

[Persivul]

Can you go into why you chose this time to vote Dom please?

Personally I'd prefer to hold off a day on someone as odd as dominator. You can see from my posts today that I'm interested in pistachio and duppin. But, the group is largely polarized over dominator, and that doesn't seem to be changing. I don't know if dominator is scum - at this point I see it as a coin toss - but even if he's town, he's a cancer, and he needs to be removed for town to have any chance of progressing.

[Persivul]

You do realize that I replaced in the same day you did, right?

Yes, and I also know that I have 72 posts, mod has 25, and you have 24.

[Persivul]

Anyone who's concerned that dominator will be a mislynch should tell dominator to do some townie things. At this point he should put up a full reads list with explanations. He should then stick to that reads list unless he posts reasons for changing on a particular person. This isn't rocket science. People like to say that anti-town =/= scum. I say, true enough, but in the absence of clear scum, anti-town behavior is lynchable.

[Persivul]

Now that I have more posts than the mod, are you suddenly going to start taking me seriously?

Suddenly? No. But, as you continue to engage in discussion, I will take you increasingly seriously. If you go dark for awhile, then not so much.

There are people (miih comes to mind) who don't post much, but occasionally make a decent content post like your 733. Those people are very dangerous as scum, because it's very difficult to lynch them. If you fade back into the woodwork, I'll be suspicious.

[Persivul]

Let's take a look at this logic instead of the reads themselves for a moment.

You're still drawing an arbitrary line of sand in the ground whereby there's scum in the 3 of us, when in reality there is no reason to think that. If he's scum, who is to say that his partners would jump on the wagon faster than town who scumread him? If he's town, he's been so scummy that town could be realistically jumping on it 3 at a time.

Whether the guy's town or scum, there's no call to assume there's scum on the wagon, besides finding scum independently who just happen to BE on the wagon.

That said, I don't like this vote anymore, so

VOTE: Persivul

You're not this dense.

Do you realize that the argument bolded was made by duppin, not me?

[Persivul]

Yeah you push eventi I defend him he flips green and you're read townier than me.

[Persivul]

Looking for scum in today's dom wagon instead of yesterday's eventi wagon is the most backward thinking I've seen in a while.

[Persivul]

Why would i assume dom is town? I find it suspicious to start out with such an assumption. And yes it's still true...townies putting a d2 wagon on d1 obvscum is not at all unusual. I find duppins position very suspicious and its also interesting that thesp endorsed it

[Persivul]

You were already on him.

[Persivul]

The point of assuming Dominator is town for this exercise is because it forces you out of your situational tunnel vision. You're so set on thinking of it this one way and the infuriating part is that it's not even scummy since I can easily see it being a playstyle thing.

You apparently missed this part: "And yes it's still true...townies putting a d2 wagon on d1 obvscum is not at all unusual."

[Persivul]

You're projecting. Duppin being a cop hasn't crossed my mind.

[Persivul]

No, I didn't miss it. That post proves my point more because you're basically saying you can't see Dom being town at all.

How am I saying that?

[Persivul]

793 is @RC.

[Persivul]

That's what obvscum means.

I disagree. As I use it, the obv refers to behaviors, but alignment could be different.

[Persivul]

RC, if duppin is cop, he fucked it up pretty badly. There's no reason to go to bat for a player like dom on D2 at L-3 even if he is town. The better play would be to ignore the wagon and merely focus attention elsewhere. Personally, after that gambit crap, I'd let him die D2 before outing myself.

[Persivul]

Actually I doubt I would have investigated him. I'd use it on someone a little more subtle.

[Persivul]

There's no getting the cat back in the bag now that rc let it out. Of he is cop he should give his result and hope there's a doc. Nothing else to do really and no sense dying with dom unresolved.

[Persivul]

Oops, macho. Oh well, it's been nice knowing you duppin. Well not really nice, but it hasn't been terrible either.

[Persivul]

thesp how do you get the community contributor thing?

[Persivul]

Cool. I was in another game that used it. mod had to yell at someone about abbreviations but after that it worked well.

[Persivul]

VOTE: pistachi0n

[Persivul]

So you outed the cop, and you want to lynch town. I think I'll let you do it so you're revealed as the fucking idiot that you are.

Nether and alchemist are likely town. RC is likely town VI, as usual.

People should be looking for scum in the rest of the eventi wagon (excluding duppin as he's presumably a dead cop tomorrow):

pistachi0n
TheDominator37
davesaz
Thesp

null - all alone, ankamius

[Persivul]

Good point narrows it down further.

[Persivul]

One scummy...one dummy...not sure about ank...

[Persivul]

That's really reaching thesp. I just read alch's iso and it's town to me. He pressured multiple targets on D1 and the transitions seem natural.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thesp

[Persivul]

RC, you've made two arguments against me:

- one which was based on something that I didn't say

- that I saw a soft claim and acted like I didn't.

That's really weak.

[Persivul]

Or to avoid drawing attention to himself if Persivul flips town.

Bingo!

[Persivul]

So replace out. I don't respect people who replace out because they don't like the game, but they're still better than people who stay and troll.

[Persivul]

This is apparently going to be a pretty shitty game.

[Persivul]

If that is the case, people should at all of them, including Nether and Alchemist.

My

scum pool obviously excludes

my

town reads. I don't think adding a disclaimer that other people don't have to do exactly as I say is helpful.

If you believe me and TheDominator are town now, you should realise you probably have to revaluate your reads.

Only reads that were dependent on you or Dom being scum.

You keeping a hard town read on people who has only voted on town so far (if you actually do believe in this world) is a bit questionable. What makes you believe Alchemist is more likely to be town than, let's say, Pistachi0n?

637 - Alchemist picked up the same twilight reads as I did

638 - case on pistachio

[Persivul]

It was not your scum pool. You gave town a list and told people to look at them, yet you excluded your town reads. I think that is a mistake.

I think you're being pedantic and my intent was easily understandable by most people.

[Persivul]

I'd like you to explain your townread on Alchemist. Is it only because he had the same twilight reads?

That and general townie behavior on D1. He was applying pressure, his movement form target to target seemed natural, he wasn't just picking on popular wagons.

Id also like you to explain your town read on Nether, thanks.

He was obvious tunnely town. It's unlike scum to tunnel one player like that on D1. They don't need to, and it draws attention. Especially after I came in and pushed back pretty hard, and a dom wagon restarted. It would have been easy for him to jump on that, and if dom is town and nether is scum, there was no reason for him not to.

What are your reads and reasoning for these players?

[Persivul]

It's very common to say that a hammer is scummy, then as deadline nears to accept a hammer. Happens all the time, which makes the charge reaching.

[Persivul]

The vc is just a placeholder. He'll fill in the votes later.

[Persivul]

So this is what troubles me a little. She has not been very active this game, so there is not much to go on.

Low activity isn't indicative of alignment for her. In one game she was scum and used it to her advantage. In another I was scum and used it to my advantage.

[Persivul]

I'm not quite understanding - in both of these examples, is pistachi0n the one with the low activity?

Yes.

[Persivul]

Anyway, this game continues to give me the feeling that most of the high activity players are scum.

And then you voted one of the lowest activity players. Kinda like referring to things duppin said and voting me. Is this your new thing?

[Persivul]

IOW, thesp and davesaz are scummy. Thanks!

[Persivul]

mod please replace me