Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Nachomamma8]

Hello????

[Nachomamma8]

I am going to nap on the way to work so no real time to post, but a it of opening posts looked pretty town which worries me a little tiny bit!

Vote: Gnomeo

[Nachomamma8]

Sneaking in a couple of posts during work, please hold

[Nachomamma8]

I like layla for town, I think.

I only made 3 posts.

This is where I started reading Layla as town; I feel like her ease in engaging with town reads on her is genuine (both here and in 33 and feel that if she was scum she would just be quiet and accept the town reads instead of trying to understand them.

I thought Ffery and notscience both had decently town looking openings as far as page 1-2 goes; the "I thought you weren't going to bus, notsci" seems like a comment that's outside of Ffery's normal cheekiness range as scum, especially as early as that, and the Layla read felt pretty natural.

flip side, new scum could see banter and try to engage to ease in early (although that would be based on the personality of said person) rounding it off with a heaping lob of a question.

splitting hairs
i think yours makes more sense though.

I thought pushing back on a very very early read like Vinkah did here felt sort of townish because it was a half-pushback that won't gain him any towncred and I don't think that he would be nervous about Layla being universal town AND it's the worst place to start pushing for a mislynch.

It's kind of weird that I feel as strongly about this as I do, but I do feel good about it and I think the logic makes sense if I managed to write it down correctly.

I've recently realized that maybe part of the reason it was difficult to get/feel good about reads on each other in forest fire was me feeling weird about the sorting process because and making the interaction stilted.

I think that was a part of it yeah!
From my end of things, that was also a pretty weird game for me because of all the town reads on everyone; I felt pretty awkward about townreading everyone and prodding a bunch of people I didn't feel were particularly scummy at all.

Your opening post is really good if you're scum!

Hi everybody!

I was going to announce a town read on Vinkah, but apparently he likes red gnomes. Leaning scum.

VOTE: Tammy

Your hope of your friends being town means you're probably scum manipulating them already.

Didn't really like this vote/post: the late jokey entrance when everyone else already found good/decent things to focus on always feels a bit strange to me.

This town read would be stronger if he hadn't been so easily swayed by ffery to change his mind;

That only strengthens the town read for me: if he stood his ground, his scum motivation could be generating content, trying to get town read by fighting someone, etc. The lack of scum motivation to post it coupled with "weakly disagreeing with an early read" not being a town tell makes it seem like a genuine thought process to me.

Strange, I'm pretty sure BBT did!

As an SK!

This probably isn't a good reason to suspect someone, but I understand the reaction.

[Nachomamma8]

Bad reasoning.
Also, these posts don't add up.

He asked a question, got a snarky response, became frustrated as a result? That actually seems like a pretty sensible progression to me :/

I feel bad that Nacho has become the designated RC reader, lol.

I love being the designated RC reader! It makes me feel special.

Wha-?

Townreading a large portion of the game makes me pretty uncomfortable because it means that the gagamhas the potential to be a shit-show: I have a lot more trouble shaking town reads as opposed to scumreads and find it more frustrating to determine which townread is wrong as opposed to which scum read.

what he did felt like he came up with it after the fact - as if he thought attempting to push a policy lynch would be a good thing to do in order to look busy/feign frustration and so there it was.

Nah. The progression flicked from RC getting frustrated from notscience's early play, to frustration, to trying to do some damage control with the non game related discussion. That's not how RC would fake frustration as scum.

Sneaking in a couple of posts during work, please hold

It turns out that my sneaking skills are not so good, sorry :/

Actually, rather than image conscious, though that could be a factor, his scum game felt aggressively town to me. he had well developed and supported reads, and he argued his cases well, especially so on day 1.

It's what he talked about in his self-meta: he's just more goal-oriented as scum. He knows what he wants to accomplish and he does it.

[Nachomamma8]

We're gonna go with the scumteam as Anen/Gnomeo/Nacho for now.

You think that I open up the game bussing my scum partner? That seems kind of like a poor choice to me.

Nah. The progression flicked from RC getting frustrated from notscience's early play, to frustration, to trying to do some damage control with the non game related discussion. That's not how RC would fake frustration as scum.

Then how would RC fake frustration as scum?

Form a case with reasonable suspicion on someone, have that person respond to their suspicion irrationally, try to talk sense to them, have that person respond irrationally again, then emotionally frustrated post. The key difference is that the reasons he was being frustrated would be clear, relatable, and understandable so that it would be hard to criticize but easy to townread.

I don't tend to town read her this early but I guess I could be making up for being stupidly paranoid of her in forest fire?

Ffery, if scum, would have correctly predicted exactly where our interactions would go when she was in a position to read me and just me and would be pulling it off flawlessly. And while not completely impossible, it's uncharted territory as far as our interactions go so would be pretty impressed if she did end up flipping scum here.

I kinda would expect nacho to town read him today anyway as I think he'd be more accurate in the coming days.

I do think that if I'm unsure on RC D1 then my read is more likely to translate to a townread I do actually feel decently confident in this read.

Am I the only one that thought Gnomeo's entry post was townish? There is nothing about his post that reads as scum trving to fit in / fly utr.

There's nothing about the entry post that feels like he's trying to fly under the radar minus the point where he doesn't actually do anything early game except make jokes (or make weird pushes on Tammy apparently).

I'm a little worried about cheetory, too. he was incredibly own to me in the last game we played, from very early in the game. I'm not getting the same townvibes here.

I wouldn't expect to get the same townvibes in this game that we did in that one; that was a game where Cheetory was inspired by the Team Mafia vibe and playing above and beyond what he would do normally, and it seems sort of unfair to expect him to consistently be able to replicate that, especially since one of the main reasons I town read him was because of how transparent and high-energy his play was.

I thought it was hasty and I thought the joking tone was off, like ha ha lets run him up! his next post was a quote-stripey case, and it wasn't an absolutelly horrible case.

but overall I just felt like his posts lacked a certain depth and sincerity.

I thought the low hanging fruit jokes were lame, but I didn't think the early case and push was bad or particularly disingenuous.

Nacho might actually be scum. I don't *really* want to elaborate on this at this point bc he only had the one chance to do anything and I want to see what he does when he gets more engaged in the game before going any further with this, but he's not hitting certain notes I'd expect from him as town here. I'd also like to know if he makes anything of Anen's other posts when he gets back.

Not really, no. I don't really know what people are seeing there; I can't really read Anen very well in general, but nothing he's posted so far has seemed like anything other than the usual for him.

I'd also be interested in hearing what notes I've been missing early game; I can understand why ffery would approach me the way that she did early game, but it doesn't really make any sense coming from you and it feels like you're just trying to piggyback off her suspicion to make me more mislynchable.

[Nachomamma8]

That's what I said. So why are you scumreading me for? I actually think you might be scum.

When I say a statement like "you're playing well if you're scum", it means that the posts looks town and couldn't be faked unless that player is particularly on their game. Your vote on Tammy seems weird if you're scum reading me, considering your whole case on her seems to be centered around the "Tammy is manipulating Nacho" scenario.

Does this mean you're townreading Nacho? I don't really see how you can townread him so fast. Feels like buddying.

Just because I'm a major concern doesn't mean that I'm a town read, but it's weird how you made this assumption to further your push on her and I really don't like how it feels like you're ignoring such a large swath of the game while doing so. I mean yeah, time, but there are other things that could use some comments too.

Anen saying that him being wagoned == scum is protecting itself feels overdramatic to me.

I mean sure, a little, but I also thought the "I'm an easy mislynch target because I don't have any real allies in this game" was a pretty genuine sentiment and really don't understand why he's getting wagoned over, say, Gnomeo.

ffery, what do you make of Cheeto's misrecollection? It seemed like you made a good point against him. But after reading your 209, it feels like you're more interested in explaining

your

behavior to

him

rather than figuring out if he is honest in misremembering.

I don't think there's a very strong motive to misremember at all, regardless of alignment. Normally, when people fuck up things that are very easily fact-checkable, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Nachomamma8]

I came into the game expecting you to push me pretty early. I'd expect that regardless of your alignment or mine. The fact that you didn't is a little confusing. I had picked up at least a couple townreads by the time you showed up, but it wouldn't have been difficult for you to shake them up.

I thought that you seemed to be in a good, confident stride at the beginning of the game and didn't think that pushing you and possibly throwing you off that stride was a good idea. Then came the posts directed at me and suddenly I had a strong town read on you.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually, I'm going to do something else.

Unvote

VOTE: pieguyn

This might be the wagon of the future. We'll see.

my heart leapt in joy for a single fabulous moment

[Nachomamma8]

Not a whole lot because Gnomeo doesn't play a whole lot, but I've played with him before.

[Nachomamma8]

inorite?

I've been staring at nacho's 2 posts off and on tonight, trying to gauge how panicky I feel.

this RedCoyote push just feels like low hanging fruit

I wouldn't characterize RC as low hanging fruit.


I can't believe I'm doing this and I'm not sure why, but I'm rereading ny 169 tonight. I'm on page 67 of 340.

[Nachomamma8]

Wickedest’s opening feels awkward and his followup when asked about it is also awkward. His followup with notscience is also awkward. Him asking Vinkah if they’re new feels like it’s coming from a productive place. Could be fake productivity though so EHHHH.

All of these things are things I don't understand at all.

You think that RC was frustrated by just the one post by notscience he referenced?

Yep.

Do you think he would be faking being frustrated about playing with notscience if there was drama already there? What do you think would be a more typical reaction for scumRC in this situation?

Yes.
You mean if notscience and RC already knew each other? I assume they already know each other, thus that new information doesn't change what I think RC would do much at all.

I liked Gnomeo's 192. While felt abrasive, it felt town because it reads like he isn't trying to forge the read even though the tammy accusation looked weird.

I don't understand why it doesn't seem like he's trying to forge the read; his scumread on me didn't shake his scumread on Tammy at all despite me being town being a necessary part of the equation.

Excuses, excuses!
You want people to look and analyze your wagon and you deliberately act anti-town!

Where has he deliberately acted antitown?

Can you quote the exact post you're talking about here?

The posts I'm talking about are quoted in #251.

[Nachomamma8]

Aneninen
Nacho
Gnomeo

totalgut/someskim/somereading town top meh middle would vote bottom

Why am I in a would vote pile?

[Nachomamma8]

nobody would care about any thoughts coming from me.

Missed this specific bit before, but this also seems genuine to me coming from Anen: I find the whole "bleh, nobody is listening to me" type of mindset more likely to be coming from town than scum.

For much the same reasons I'm inclined to vote gnomeo right now.

Hmm?

[Nachomamma8]

red. with a splash of san pellegrino, and slices of orange and lime. oh and the rim of the wine glass is dipped in guajillo chili powder, sort of like how you'd salt a margarita glass.

I picked that trick up in a Salvadoran restaurant in San Jose.

That sounds delicious.

[Nachomamma8]

team quote stripes would be pretty fun

[Nachomamma8]

my entrance to the game was superbly subpar. i know nacho gets his feels, but his feels for my entrance as strong as it was when the entrance was pretty shitty, is just meh?

What was the problem with what I outlined?
Maybe I would feel differently about your entrance if I knew who you were, but :hitoshrug:.
I also don't know why you think I'd white knight an unknown slot early game if they weren't making town-looking posts, or why you singled out me specifically for calling the slot town.

since you're here though, notscience, can you remember earlyindecisivetownfferyllt? i can't?

Do you mean early and decisive?
If you can't remember early indecisive, then :/ what?

that is what I mean

So you're saying that town-pie ALWAYS reads you correctly?

Why the hell wasn't she in the FF10 game?

I think FF10 was doomed from the start, thanks to the neighborhood.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Vinkah...

perhapsfireball

"so the argument that he was the player that didn't fit and that's why he was getting wagoned felt wrong before"

it wasn't so much that RC didn't know anybody and didn't fit, but moreso that in such a cast of strong players/personalities/characters/whathaveyou the most untown behavior even though it pretty null square into circle something to talk about wagon, so i called it crap?

sense? probably not,

Not for me!
Are you saying that his opening was objectively weird to do regardless of alignment, thus bad, thus RC being low hanging fruit?
Because that makes some sort of sense, but not that much sense.

I liked those posts. :/

They sang a song of forest fires to me.

I think I see what you mean here.

There's somethng about my impression of his posts that I feel like you've picked up from scum-nacho. I'm a little disconcerted, and need to figure out if I'm wrong about that attribute even being a thing in this game.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, though.

[Nachomamma8]

I would love to post a ton today.
Unfortunately, my laptop won't connect to the internet so still phone

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, though.

I phrased it carefully because I don't want you to know what you need to fix if you're scum.

I figured as much, but no harm in trying!

[Nachomamma8]

Why can't it be faked? Looks pretty easy to me.

It could be faked. But, I find it unlikely that Tammy as scum would open with a post that means I expect her to be even more transparent and even more town than she is usually; doing something like that is usually a risk that outweighs the small potential reward.

[Nachomamma8]

Looks like: "Gnomeo is getting some heat, I'll vote there. Oh wait, I just said he had a good post, I can't vote him. Quickly, let's vote someone else."

Funny considering the next quote, but I liked this comment.

[Nachomamma8]

Not true actually. You just don't know who you're playing with. Usually you start townreading me after a while, so there's still hope you might be town.

And this one!
I also might remember more about you than you think I do! You PMed me on your main after HoH.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.

Something that I actually learned from a rough pair of newbie games is that you don't need to worry about solving the whole game at once, and that sometimes taking it one read at a time can shake those hidden scum out of the bushes.

I know I'm townreading scum currently. I know that I will likely be townreading scum tomorrow. For now, the only thing I have to combat that is by being open to engaging town reads when they skip and be open to backing off scumreads early even when it leaves me nowhere to go.

[Nachomamma8]

You're suggesting he can't be town read that fast. He'd made five posts by that point. What makes you think that I can't read Nacho quickly if you can?

This is a good point.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Cheetory

Two major things I don't like here: case and Tammy and response to suspicion.

I don't like the case on Tammy because it seems to be entirely built on subtle differences between signs and void play and play here. Assertions like "she has a lynch pool, she's generally focused" really bothers me because it not only is it based on a stupidly small sample size, its also not a very convincing reason for anyone to think someone is scum, especially when the "focused" reads Tammy possessed in SV was a grand total of 1. I don't like the reasonable/unreasonable anger point: as RC said, emotions change. People are happy, angry, crying over syrup, and that emotion leaks into their posting. I feel like this is something Cheetory would realize as town and thus not a whole lot of excitement in the point, but Cheetory picked up on it because it's a surface difference that is pretty easily questioned.

[Nachomamma8]

The second thing I don't like that I almost forgot was how Cheetory treats suspicion on his himself. I don't like him holding up his reputation and denouncing it; it seems like an attempt reducing expectations of his slot as opposed to anything else.

[Nachomamma8]

i) I'm getting a lot shit about not living up to expectations of my towngame lately which has been frustrating. I'm trying hard to not be a dick about it, but every time someone says "Cheet isn't as obvtown as he has been in the past" it makes me tear at my hair a little bit when it's so early on in the game.

While this sentiment makes sense in general, it doesn't make sense in response to the comments that have been put in thread so far: the post where you accuse Tammy/Ffery of throwing shade at your meta in particular seems pretty off when neither player (but especially not Tammy) has really used that as leverage for a Cheetory!scum push.

I also don't understand why if you're just frustrated at being held up to a standard that's simply too unreasonable, you're responding like this. You keep saying you had a slow start in Signs and Void (which implies an expectation of your play to be as obvtown as it was there isn't unreasonable) instead of more honestly stating that you just don't want the two to be compared.

[Nachomamma8]

ii) I have openly admitted that the point about PoE pool was something that felt off but that it was a weak point, I don't understand how you're pretending like I'm being confident there. I voted for Tammy because I wanted to draw attention to what felt like unreasonably strong anger in response to questioning something reasonable. Maybe I missed some kind of context there, but I did want to talk about it and I think it's pretty shitty that you're trying to frame it as me trying to get Tammy lynched and just throw shade at her when I literally asked for people to talk with me about that.

The PoE pool has the same problem as the "angrier response" point in that you're comparing this game to signs and void on a very surface level. I think you would avoid doing that if town considering how annoying you found the Signs and Void comparisons to be yourself.

And also, you made a case on Tammy. You voted here. Regardless of whether the phrase "talk at me" came after or not, it still seemed like a case and a push and I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret it as such.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, can you talk about your experience playing with Gnomeo?

Mmmm. I don't remember that HoH game very much. I would say I draw experiences from interacting with his main, but I'm not 100% I have that exactly right, so I'll make it a project in the future to refresh my memory and go PM diving.

[Nachomamma8]

I was thinking Nacho was scum,

Why did you have a scum read on me before?

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.

It's also very possible that he just didn't really know what to do to drop it smoothly.

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.

It's also very possible that he just didn't really know what to do to drop it smoothly.

Or not even this, I don't think it's uncommon for scum to do continue pushing a target they are getting heat for pushing just because it's a comfortable push.

[Nachomamma8]

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

Sometimes. I don't really think that quote is an example of that.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

That was me explaining where my mindset was in response to Cheetory pointing out that I seemed too comfortable with too many town reads.

[Nachomamma8]

I like pie's previous posts quite a bit, but I'd love his Cheetory thoughts a whole lot more of they came with a vote.

[Nachomamma8]

frey/Nacho + others, I appreciate y'all sticking up for me in spite of me ignoring the game the last couple of days.

Is it crazy for me to townread this post really really hard?

Probably, right?

[Nachomamma8]

So it's okay for you to be inaccurate with meta, but much less leniency the other way around?

Mmm I can't say that I understand the point you're making here. If I'm tracking this particular train of thought properly, Ffery expressed that she thought you were having a slow start, you made the frustration posts, Tammy backed Ffery up. Your response was then to point to random events in Signs and Void of Shadoweh saying something to you and you having a slow start, Tammy points out that it's not likely that she remembers minor events that had nothing to do with her (which I'm assuming is a rebuttal to your accusations earlier). Then comes this? Where was Tammy inaccurate with meta/harsh on you for being inaccurate on meta?

[Nachomamma8]

So in my head, I think "Tammy not having a lynchpool is realistically not that scummy and it only kind of feels scummy to me", but I guess to others it came across as "you're trying to get Tammy lynched/you're making a case on her!" which is really really not even close to what was going on in my head q.q.
If my sole intention was to shade Tammy, I would have probably have been more dedicated to it and if my sole intention was to try to look like town producing content, I feel I would have argued with Tammy more instead of shying away from it.

My problem with your push isn't by how strong it is. I have a problem with your push because you pretty clearly express how you dislike people comparing you to signs and void and nothing else and then you turn around and push Tammy for a bunch of surface level crap that's comparing her to signs and void and nothing else.

I do honestly think you are making this weird half-push in an effort to fake content, and I don't find the "I would have argued with Tammy more" argument compelling because... you're still arguing with Tammy.

[Nachomamma8]

Literally the only thing I would call case-ish from my posting wrt Tammy is her getting angry at Layla didn't make sense to me. Remind me in the future to just say fucking nothing if I don't feel it's the most indicative thing. -.-

What do you want me to call it if it's not a case?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, how are you currently reading Tammy? I apologize if that has already been made explicit lately.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean sure, a little, but I also thought the "I'm an easy mislynch target because I don't have any real allies in this game" was a pretty genuine sentiment and really don't understand why he's getting wagoned over, say, Gnomeo.

I mean, part of what's bugging me at this point is that I can get the angle that you're coming at wrt the RC read right now, and I can get why you're saying Anen is being overdramatic and maybe that feels genuine, but there's really likely to be three scum in this game and it can't be just Gnomeo playing a bad scumgame and that's it.

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.
I don't know if that makes sense and isn't just me being mumbly about foggy details, but it's like, I just get this really strong feeling that someone is playing well and I'm scared of the fact that I want to sheep you on this without having even looked at Gnomeo in detail yet q.q

I misremembered the exacts of this exchange: Cheetory was not really willing to jump on the Gnomeo wagon because Gnomeo wasn't the only scum and he had to be going wrong in town reads somewhere, and I pointed out that I had a similar mindset but wasn't overly concerned with dealing the inevitable wrong reads right that moment.

[Nachomamma8]

So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

:/

This is one of those town pings that I would have ignored in forest fire. I'm not really sure what to do about it now.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think it is semantics though q.q
Like. I don't feel like I was scumreading Tammy for that as hard as you're saying I was. It felt more like a lead to me. >.>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Why did you unvote RC to vote Tammy, then?
Did you end up being convinced by my reasons to townread him because that vote in him definitely seemed like a case case.

[Nachomamma8]

Idk. I read Cheeto as town. I think his talking about himself is very genuine, and some of the points that have been criticized for inconsistency (like Wicked criticizing the "i want to scream right now" line) felt very consistent to me.

What do you think about his pushing and prodding thing on Tammy?
What do you think about his specific focus on word choice (see things with the recent exchange with Wicked, or his "it's not a case" exchange with me)?

[Nachomamma8]

I considered voting Cheetory but I kind of want to give him at least some room to get back into the game if he's town here. I think if he's town, I'll be able to figure it out once he catches up - and I'd explicitly prefer to see him catch up on his own accord as opposed to influencing it by voting him.

Then who are you going to push in the interim? Do you really think that you not voting him is going to make a significant difference in the pressure he feels or that Cheetory-town can't properly do his thing under pressure?

[Nachomamma8]

Pie defending me makes me happy.
I'm going to try my best to be wary of her despite this

Also, what did you think about this post?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Anen

[Nachomamma8]

Cheetory's 471 again has me scratching my head as to why people aren't getting town pings all over the place from this fellow. Is he known to be so self-deprecating as scum? We've played a couple of times, and I never got that impression. Cheetory, I think, would be far more bullish as scum. Here he reads as genuinely feeling slighted and unable to really get his footing on why he can't come across more effectively.

Maybe this is overkill, but I still don't think he's the best vote today.

When I'm town, for the most part, every push I make with reasonable confidence is a push that I'm expecting to go through. As scum, I know that I'm not just going to push a mislynch all day and will need to make some pushes that I later back down from just so it looks like scumhunting, hence the scum tell of occasionally making pushes that I don't really think are going to go through.

Cheetory's push on Tammy looked a lot like that to me, like his expectation of the push was that he was going to argue with her a little while, she explains her mindset, he backs off and goes somewhere with a higher probability for a lynch. It felt that way because his opening case against Tammy seemed like a push but didn't really have good reasoning to back it up, and as soon as he was challenged on the case, it seemed like he was immediately looking to back off from it.

I find that less likely now because it just seems like an element of his playstyle, like maybe he has trouble wording things at first or tends to have an in the moment emotional response to something before bringing out a much more sensible action later; his recent exchange with Wicked seems to exemplify that almost perfectly (the argument of implied OMGUS or whatever was really really terrible but attacking Wicked for caring about this post in particular was much better). I think if Cheetory were scum he would possible be more cautious about this tendency, make sure his responses would be more measured and would very possibly be more bullish.

[Nachomamma8]

That being said pie's response to my claim si really really sketchy.

I made a huge fucking deal about her rate at reading me in that mini that just finished and pie's not sure I'd think to fake that as scum? Really? That looks forced as hell and is bugging the everliving shit out of me

Then why aren't you voting her?

You get these strong reads every once in a while on people you have pretty good familiarity with, but I've never seen you get a read like this and just sit on it.

If you're looking to get engaged with the game, pushing a read like this is the probably the best way to go about it.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel disengaged too, and it scares me, given this player list. halfway through day 1 and 22 pages in this crowd is pretty weird.

I'm actually really happy with the pace of this game so far; I feel like enough things happen each day that are significant to comment on where it's not dragging significantly, I feel like posts from pretty much the entire playerlist are well thought out, no one is getting into dumb extended tunnels that require my time and energy to derail...

I don't feel worried about the game that much anymore because of how thoughtful and focused the town is now. I think if we can maintain this approach to the game the whole way through, then I think it's only a matter of time before cracks begin to show.

[Nachomamma8]

My top three are now probably notscience, Anen and Layla.

was trying to find what was bothering me.
i don't know what to make of it, but the best way to describe it is listing those three and voting ns who pretty much everyone has as eh? while it seems that there is a least a small contingent wanting to push Anen is underwhelming?
putting Layla in there also is also a bit surprising.

I think these are probably easy targets at this stage, but I can't say I really disagree with them.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyway, I have kinda skimmed some but i've seen people mention things about not having a good scum read and I wonder if there is something to my suspicion that this could be multi factional of some kind. :/

I don't think there's a high likelihood of this: I'm worse than most people of feeling out multiball versus not but I would really really hate Empire if this was the case and all those nice feelings I had would fade away so no multiball.

[Nachomamma8]

But,
I don't think anyone really cares about my posts at all.
If I'm here and answer things = I'm called scum.
If I'm away for RL reasons and don't do anything = I'm called scum.

I don't think it's fair to say that people are calling you scum/not scum for activity reasons: there's depth in thread beyond that.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen games like this when someone gets called scum regardless of everything. Sadly said, I even joined wagons like that as town. But, at that point I strongly think staying alive wouldn't help the town at all.
As long as I'm alive I'll be an easy lynch for the scums. (Unless someone throws an investigation on me.)

I also pretty strongly disagree with this; I think that you're improperly judging the momentum against you at this point in time, I think you're underestimating the ability of town to properly read you, and I think that the "I'll always be an easy lynch for scum" line to justify being okay with your lynch is lazy and bad.

[Nachomamma8]

She derailed my wagon becasue he thought "it was clear that the town was on its way to a mislynch.) My gamestart was very similar to that game. (Yes, I did it intentionally.) Why hasn't she realized the same thing?
If I'm wrong about this, my next guess is RedCoyote.

It depends on why she was townreading you in the first place: despite some similarities in posting lines or thought processes, I assume this situation is very different than that one and your thoughts here aren't necessarily the same as your thoughts there. I also don't understand why you expected Ffery to town read you when you were doing the same thing intentionally: doesn't that mean you're doing what you would do as scum?

Why RedCoyote?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh I do like that you're voting someone who is probably the strongest universal townread at this point: it's a bad move survival-wise for scum, the reasoning you've provided feels genuine, and I think it matches up with your mindset right now for you to throw down what feels like a hail Mary vote like that one.

[Nachomamma8]

This is a reasoning I know very well from IRL situations (not games, real situations!) – it shows evil intent which has a clear goal: wipe someone out of a complany/workplace/community/etc. (Implosion: I'm not calling you evil; it's a game and I've done things like this before too.)

I'm not sure what exactly you're accusing implosion of here: are you saying that implosion is attempting to alienate you from the rest of the town by saying that you're objectively scummy (and supporting that by pointing out that a lot of people suspected you)?.

[Nachomamma8]

Anen, you know what's bothered me? It's that when I caught up in that game, you had played with a lot of humor laced through your frustration about being tunneled. I don't see that here.

You don't think that its possible that stress of moving is bleeding into his play and making him less jokey than usual?

Do you think his scum game had a more serious tone?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm thinking (again) about voting Gnomeo, but it's not really based on anythng solid. Tammy I wish you and Nacho had more to say about that game you played with him. It was really the only one of his scum games that looks at all like this one.

Next time I spend some time on this game after today, I'll have a look over his meta (both in HoH and his main). I can't really tell you much about that game now because I only vaguely remember it.

[Nachomamma8]

but the more he pulls this the more I'm seeing it as a crutch to avoid having to generate content bc I'm definitely not the only person who said in the game thread I wanted to give him room to catch up in the game and I'm pretty sure I've been saying as much for a while now.

Mmmm, not really seeing this much at all. Being resigned to death isn't a reason to stop posting content: it's added urgency to get all of your reads out in thread as soon as possible because you could lose the chance to do so at all. His posts urging town not to ignore his reads or get distracted by scum supports that.

[Nachomamma8]

he leaves the option open to join the Cheetory push later if he doesn't get anywhere. this is even more so the case if he had supposedly been deliberately been doing the same thing he did in the last game he had with ffery in order to reaction test her (why give up if you supposedly have a lead you've been working on?).

He has 6 players he finds scummier than Cheetory, so if he wants to justify why he's on the Cheetory wagon, he also has to justify why he's not on any of his other suspicions.

I also don't really agree with the second point in this paragraph: where has he given up on his lead?

[Nachomamma8]

I think Anen needs to generate content which isn't just based around his wagon.
I also still want answers to my questions.
Because I feel like this whole "My wagon is scum and all of these people interacting with me are scum because ahhh!!!"-shtick would be easy for scum to fake.

What did you think of his most recent post?
It most certainly wasn't this.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure if I believe that you're town reading this. IIRC, he has made several comments of this nature but it's only this one that gives you second thoughts? I would love if you could explain this town ping that you're seeing.

Also, what do you think of Anen's similar comment(s)? Or do you think Anen's comments are different in some way?

I explained in my earlier post towards RedCoyote why I felt the way I did about it. I'm not sure that Cheetory has made comments that really explained his mindset than. he did there, but if he did, it likely didn't just ring genuine/true to me when I read it for whatever reason.

I've commented on Anen's similar comments that I think you're referring to and did refer to them as townish.

[Nachomamma8]

Which of course begs the "why are you voting him in the first place?" question: I ended up voting Anen earlier because Cheetory-town seemed more likely to me at that point in time and it ended with me not having a whole lot of options.

Layla's opening still seemed townier for her opening. My own Vinkah townread isn't overly strong but it is pretty strongly supplemented by Ffery's read there, especially after how she's talked about that read lately. Notscience's opening did seem pretty town when it first happened, although I don't really like recent posts from the slot. Gnomeo I have doubts on from time to time but thought his tone/posts surrounding Tammy exchanges seemed pretty town. All other players ended up being pretty town for one reason, and again, although I know that I'm townreading people for incorrect reasons, it didn't seem like a bad idea to see where a vote on Anen would take me.

[Nachomamma8]

This seems inconsistent. Originally, you called your attackers suspicious for their illegitimate votes. But now you think it's possible that scum are genuinely scum hunting if it's a multiball setup? It looks like you just want criticize your voters, whatever the case may be.

I don't think this is exactly what Anen was saying: "I don't know if he's on the other faction but fuck it" implies less genuine scumhunting and more following the crowd.

[Nachomamma8]

I already told you that I don't like when people exaggerate. I think it's a form of deceit. We're already playing in a game where scum are lying their butts off and we have to figure out who they are. So if you're town, you're not helping me by saying what I believe is an exaggeration.

This is probably a harder line to take than is productive: people exaggerate all the time for rhetoric, they do it because it's fun, they do it because it feels right at the time. I sincerely doubt you'll find too many scum just because their language is too strong.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm considering notty or maybe back to Gnomeo.

But I just read notscience's opening and it was better than I remembered, although I still really don't get the mindset behind the pie vote. I don't really want to push a lynch on him when he's V/LA.

[Nachomamma8]

In Gnomeo's HoH game, he didn't really seem like he knew how to act town as scum. He ended up focusing a majority of his effort that game weak distancing with Bulbazak because Bulbazak's HoH plan was antitown, when pressured, he just kept putting up reads lists with reads that really weren't fleshed out.

[Nachomamma8]

I have a theory about that kill I really hope is true, but not interested in talking about it now, just making this post for possible future bragging rights.

[Nachomamma8]

Wicked, the reason I ended up leaving my vote on Anen is because I wanted to find a better place for my vote instead of just unvoting, but got distracted by work before I could find it.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Tuesday

Will be gone in New York, will not have much mafia time in the meantime.

[Nachomamma8]

I overslept on my catching up day, so won't have time to catch up until tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing I have on the agenda today is catching up and eating and being sick. Posting this now because I'm catching up elsewhere first, but don't want to get replaced.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why everyone's ignoring Nacho right now. He has yet to explain his end of day 1 behavior. He's posted elsewhere. His vla supposedly ended four days ago... I'll switch my vote if nothing changes, but I think Nacho needs some more attention

I explained my Day 1 behavior. What issue did you have with it?

I have posted elsewhere. I'm ignoring this game because I need to find a direction and read: I am not ignoring games where all I have to do is post.

[Nachomamma8]

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

Sure, I didn't really think anyone would hammer in the near future.

Nothing's wrong with unvoting, but nothing's wrong with leaving the vote on either.

[Nachomamma8]

That's nice, I'm still town, and I will still point back to earlier.

So.

You'll point to earlier as in pie scumreads you and it automatically becomes a 1v1?

[Nachomamma8]

Why are people townreading RC again?

RC seems town because his scum game is about being image conscious and making believable posts, he doesn't get bored in scum games as easily because he prefers scum more, etc. Why should we be considering him as scum? Because he's lurking?

[Nachomamma8]

You've entered day 2 in a similarly uncommited manner.

I think that's more a symptom of lack of time than anything else, haven't really spend time reading and finding direction.

[Nachomamma8]

I was really ready to vote notscience today, but I like his back and forth with ffrey from 749 to 761... so that kind of pisses me off because now I have to make a harder choice with my vote unless someone can sell me back to notscience.

I'm not really sure I understand why you found this particularly town.

[Nachomamma8]

Never mind I'm dumb!

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Boon, why are you town?

[Nachomamma8]

That seems weaker than your usual self-meta justifications.

[Nachomamma8]

i dont have a vest, if thats what you are asking. ill have to look at the normal guidelines again to come to a list of why that might happen. im assuming doctor, JK, mafia roleblocker are possibilities but idk what else

This is sort of unexpected, I wouldn't expect you to take this at face value as town. You didn't think that he would bring that up when you first replaced in?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nacho

My bigger reason for townreading him is bad. This is kind of something I want to feel out. I don't really like an RC vote right now. Would rather get a better feeling for nacho.

Why do you think I could be scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I’ve never seen an RC-scum game before. My experience with RC is swag town where I correctly strong-town read him from the start.

Do you remember why you townread him in Swagtown?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Wicked

I feel like he's creating strong reads in himself, but he's constantly asking for other people's reads, and it looks like he's trying to tailor them to the situation.

This is awful, feels fake, and I don't think you've actually read.

I have only one strong read at this point and I'm pretty sure I haven't disclosed it yet, so not sure where you're getting that impression. Furthermore, I haven't been 'constantly asking for other people's reads', that's an exaggeration and not a scum tell (even if I

had

created strong reads)... I will ask for a read now, though: what do you think of Vinkah?

I have no idea what your last comment means.

Unvote. Vote: Boonskiies

Why did you vote Boon here?

Your wording on reads makes them seem strong enough where it isn't too crazy that someone is interpreting you having strong reads, and the exaggeration doesn't seem like a horrible misrepresentation of your person that serves to mislynch.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think anyone trusts me on Mafiascum, Wicked.

Nevertheless,

VOTE: Vinkah
That's not 100×100 pixels.

in every game ive played on mafiascum, i found an opening post that made my gut go nuts. sometimes i ended up TRing them later but it was scum every time

this is that post

VOTE: Aneninen

This post freaked me out at first because it looked like a townslip and I would find two townslips in two games played with SS too coincidental for me to be comfortable with it but not knowing public knowledge is pretty obviously not a townslip or an attempt at faking one in any way.

[Nachomamma8]

You need to know of any claimed night actions, but you don't need to check the OP for dead players and alignments? Hmm...

Are you scum?

This attack is ridiculous.

[Nachomamma8]

Boon's entrance was what pinged for me too. I didn't like that he walked in here with only the one read on Wicked and didn't lay out any other reads, and it didn't feel like he was actually trying to give a good explanation for said Wicked read.

While its a frustrating entrance, I don't think it's particularly scummy. His entrance into Joss Whedon mafia was pretty similar to this one.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nacho

My bigger reason for townreading him is bad. This is kind of something I want to feel out. I don't really like an RC vote right now. Would rather get a better feeling for nacho.

Why do you think I could be scum?

Because you're a player in the game who hasn't flipped?

Oh boo, I meant what in my posts is scum motivated >.>

[Nachomamma8]

had something i want to say about nacho, but can't really put to words how i feel about the whole WATCHWHILEIFUTUREAMAZEYOU post.

The theory post?
I'd be interested in your thoughts on me since I've maybe figured out who you are. Don't think Ffery is slow playing; it's kind of hard to form strong reads in this game and I don't think it's unreasonable for her to be unable to magically figure it out.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel like pieguyn could be scum. When I actually read her iposts I feel like her points and considerations are coming from a town mindset, but they are so detached feeling. Very contained. If there's effort toward refining reads and finding scum, it's not apparent. It's incredibly low key.

I agree that she's playing an uncharacteristically weak game here if town. I think this is probably the place where I'd most like to put my vote at this very moment, but won't just to freak out Wicked.

[Nachomamma8]

Are we voting soft spoken?

Although this post seems terrible based on how he approached the game and have been playing the game in spots I remember reading.

[Nachomamma8]

I saw the vote count, LL. I'm not caught up. I didn't recognize that avatar, and of course it's pie. Haha. Nah, I'd vote me too this game. I haven't done crap.

This also seems pretty uncharacteristic of town-Boon when I've seen him in recent memory.

[Nachomamma8]

Eh, nothing in particular. Although that might change if I read them more closely.

I just think you'll probably one of the more useful people to engage with right now and I don't yet feel like putting in the large amount of effort to determine the best person to vote for.

If you want to engage with me, engage with me. I tried to open a line of communication by asking you what you found scummy about me, I'm catching up now so I have stuff to comment on. You're not going to get anywhere if you just plop your vote on me and twiddle your thumbs.

[Nachomamma8]

Thoughts on my push on S-S scumcho?

I saw your initial reasoning which I agreed with, but it doesn't hold up with his explanation for why he played it the way he did. Do you have updated reasoning?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see what you mean.

The only thing I see is where he acknowledges it was forced.

He said that he was deliberately acting scummy to see who jumped on the easy vote and Ffery corroborated that this was his meta.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho are you still here?

What's up?

[Nachomamma8]

Are you caught up? I want to talk about the relative worthiness of some wagons.

Not completely, but I have a good enough idea of where my reads stand to be useful.

[Nachomamma8]

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

Sure, I didn't really think anyone would hammer in the near future.

Nothing's wrong with unvoting, but nothing's wrong with leaving the vote on either.

Not sure I believe that you didn't think someone would hammer when deadline was near and multiple players expressed intent...

Pie and Ffery both said that they might hammer eventually, and I doubted either would hammer without talking to me about it.

[Nachomamma8]

sigh

Sorry! 3AM, fell asleep. If you still are around, let me know.

[Nachomamma8]

I would also expect you should be aware that I sure as hell would be able to bullshit a push on someone if I actually was scum (as one example: what we did to MS D1 of Over the Garden Wall) especially given how I've always talked about how I've got a lot better about faking conviction recently.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect pushes from you to come easier to you when you're town as opposed to when you're scum, although it also makes sense for pushes to be difficult to come by in this game in general.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote. Vote: Nachomamma8

I see you posting elsewhere. What's up? Still waiting on an answer to this:

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

A lot of my posting elsewhere was in UK invitational, which was in 3 player LyLo. The rest of it was focused in another game for reasons I'm not free to discuss.

[Nachomamma8]

implosion seems to have no intent or conviction behind his votes. could be a style thing, but over time it feels like he's always right there when a momentum change wafts through the air.

I agree that implosion really hasn't made an encouraging push in a while, he's felt like he's been just drifting through the game without actually looking for anything. His push on me especially doesn't make sense: he doesn't seem to be scumreading me and just thinks I'm a "good person to engage with" but then when he has the opportunity to engage, he doesn't.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm less concerned about him because he really does seem that detached, but I dunno.

His posts sound good when be makes them, but him lacking any sort of real direction or initiative is annoying even if it's not that scummy. I'm not really that sure what's brought out this play in this game.

[Nachomamma8]

how do you feel about RC today?

I still feel good about RC. I don't really think that his posts so far have been meeting meta expectations and this game looks nothing like how I expect his scum game to look.

[Nachomamma8]

I said early if pie starts scumreading me that I want her purged with fire after I flip town but I'm no longer remotely confident in that, because my play just feels off.

So eh.

Things like this are townier than not because they defy meta expectations in a way that both feels genuine and also feels unlikely to be coming from notscience as scum. Leaving an avenue for pie to push him and not get scum read for it makes pie pushing him easier, and he's shown that the whole 1v1 for a misread is both believable and fakeable coming from him as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like his 1156, but it doesn't look like what I'd expect scum-him to post in that circumstance.

I thought the first bit of that post was good, second bit not so much. I agree that it's decently unlikely he posts that as scum; the types of lines where he says that SS is panicking and that's why his play is sloppy, or when he said that Vinkah's posts all look really good but he's still scum are all lines that would act as the punchline of a well-formed case but aren't likely to be standalone attacks.

I didn't think that's what he was trying to say in his post: I thought he was saying he was bothered by the wagon on SS because Cheeto but was less bothered when he knew it was Layla.

[Nachomamma8]

I also have no idea who Vinkah is actually, was just looking for a reaction from me saying I figured it out.

[Nachomamma8]

at least in the context of someone who cares about a scum game. i could see some utter noob being clueless as scum and not caring. anyone that wants to win as scum would have a bit more calculation in a push than fossin a dead person dont you think?

Sure. But you're ignoring this fact: anyone that wants to win

as town

would check who's dead and what their roles were before casting a vote, don't you think?

This isn't a fact though.

Regardless of alignment, knowing flipped players increases your chances of winning. It goes without saying that SS would figure out who is dead and flipped eventually.

[Nachomamma8]

how do you feel about boonskiies?

Don't really like him so far. I thought the Cheetory point was good and I don't like the way he's handled suspicion on himself. I'm not as concerned about his Wicked push in particular as others seem to be (in fact that obstinate stubbornness for absolutely no reason is what makes me think he could be town), but I think he's a strong place for a push right now.

[Nachomamma8]

And because he called it correctly about what looked off in S-S' reaction to his fake claim.

I don't think this is a town tell.

[Nachomamma8]

Oddly enough the more I internally mull things over the more I feel like my best townread was Cheeto.

Why?
Why hasn't this question been asked yet?

[Nachomamma8]

What do we think of Nacho?

I keep forgetting hes in this game and I know this sounds hypocritical but

I was gone for this thread for a week: I took a vacation in New York and then was working overtime for the remaining part of the week so I could use as little vacation time as possible, hence me being sick now.

[Nachomamma8]

they felt like they had genuine scumhunting but Cheeto felt like he had genuine reactions.

I can't say I understand why this makes Cheetory your strongest townread, and I don't like how you don't try to dig deeper than "feels genuine" to any real extent.

[Nachomamma8]

This is especially true in my towngames. In games where I have been less active or disconnected from the game, a wagon on me usually kicks me enough that I feel the need to do alignment-indicative things. I want notscience to do alignment-indicative things.

I understand your perspective here, but there are four days until deadline. All of your votes so far have been pushing people to do alignment indicative things, but it's about time to push to lynch now, don't you think?

[Nachomamma8]

Ffery, can you talk about Vinkah?

[Nachomamma8]

anything.

This attitude seems decently town to me

[Nachomamma8]

notsci's response to me reminds me of what people like Sakura do as scum. jt read like he had no idea what to say in order to respond, so he just made something up. I don't really know if he's scum for it, but I don't think it was in any way a town response.

Could you expand on this a bit more?

[Nachomamma8]

Can we wagon Nacho or RC or something

Why are you approaching pushing wagons like this?

[Nachomamma8]

this game def feels like at least one of our town power players is scum. i might change my mind on that if d2 doesnt progress in any meaningful way and boon is lynched and flips scum.

Who are the town power players?

[Nachomamma8]

That's a great sign.

[Nachomamma8]

I understand the context of the RC vote on SS a little better and understand why you were bothered by it a little better. I think he would have made his push on that wagon better looking as scum and I could see why him as town wouldn't like SS's posting.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: implosion

I have faith Boon will do things eventually and that his alignment will become hilariously obvious when that happens.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want to vote implosion for today?

[Nachomamma8]

I thought it was 4 since SS moved to RC.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho's 1259, it was asked literally five posts later and I answered it literally two posts after that :S.

Yeah, I figured that out.

[Nachomamma8]

And then not ever voting Nacho. And he has posted since I voted Nacho, so he could have been the third vote on what would be a budding wagon. This is especially strange since he's been saying these things ever since voting SS.

Scumcho is a nickname notscience has for me regardless of his opinion on my alignment. His concern with not remembering me being in the game was also based on him forgetting I was V/LA for most of my absence.

[Nachomamma8]

His vote on me was his first vote of the day, and yet he makes post 1262 asking for me to stop voting for pressure and start voting for lynches. Which is strange from a person who hadn't voted for either all day.

I haven't voted all day because I haven't posted all day
>.>

This attack seems pretty bad to me, did you really expect me to plop down a vote when I clearly wasn't anywhere close to being engaged in the game?

[Nachomamma8]

He has a pattern of posting a ton all at once which I don't remember from past games with him

I am posting from mobile as opposed to from a computer.

You didn't think that was alignment relevant, right?

[Nachomamma8]

Not always, no.

[Nachomamma8]

For some reason I feel like you're referring to the scourge of the earth that is aqua teen hunger force?

[Nachomamma8]

It's potentially notable that Nacho was the third spot on both my wagon and the eventual Anen lynch wagon.

Agreed.

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

you said I wasn't reading you, which is a cryptic way of implying that you had soft-claimed prior to that post.

And what makes you say that?

[Nachomamma8]

The part that looks bad to me about implosion is the part where pie pointed out that he was supposedly shooting a townread and his response was that he was trying to shoot a consensus scumread.

Don't have real time to think about this now, but I'm not sure I'm willing to lynch someone who is probably not scum, especially when we can just tell him not to shoot unless we drop down to evens.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually I lied.
Let's speed up the process.

Vote: Boonskies

[Nachomamma8]

I like it!

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nacho

I'll vote here. He did the same thing in Joss Whedon. Town read me until he wanted to lynch me. He was scum.

you know I expected this vote because this is exactly what I did to you in Joss Whedon.

[Nachomamma8]

I simultaneously like and hate it, but Boonskiies' extremely self-aware self meta is what it is.

UNVOTE

It's pretty adorable yeah

[Nachomamma8]

My initial response is just to sort of fall back on Vinkah but I fully acknowledge that vote is lazy as hell and would rather look other places

[Nachomamma8]

Just don't really know where.
Probably RC first, want to look through some of his scumgames to see if I can get a better idea of his range.

[Nachomamma8]

there are other posts where you have pointed to things you dont like about boon... but it seems like you were all for letting that resolve itself later?

Actually I lied.

Let's speed up the process.

[Nachomamma8]

now is nacho gunna play this off like it was his plan all along to get boon to jump on him so he could towntell? i suppose it could be believable. but outside that possibility that vote was susp AF

Actually I lied.

Let's speed up the process.

[Nachomamma8]

You feel good about Wicked town? I'm townreading him in part because I read the kind of irritability he displays as town. It's becoming a lazy read.

I'm not as comfortable with Wicked-town as I was before, no, mostly because he's been pretty consistent in delivering content, tone seems genuine enough, nothing really stands out a whole lot, so I've just been ignoring him lately.

[Nachomamma8]

well ill let you figure out the consolidation efforts. i dont see where the day is landing. or how it can... atm. im pretty solid on my vote, and im not voting notsci. not voting nacho unless ffer gives me permission to lol

Would you vote me if Ffery wasn't in the picture?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I don't really understsand this. You're not as comfortable that he's town, because you've been ignoring him because he seems pretty town?

He consistently hits classic towntells and I've sort of lazily townbinned him as a result. I am not as comfortable with the read there as I am on others because I realize I'm not reading him as deeply.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd actually really rather not lynch Boon, sorry.

[Nachomamma8]

So, why is it such a problem that ... surprise ... I don't have any strong scum reads? Just because I'm not death tunneling someone or making any particularly strong push anywhere doesn't mean I'm not forming reads or that I don't have reads.

I think that I mentioned that your play this game was pretty understandable based on the game state, but I don't think it's weird for me to express flashes of paranoia on you based on your play being lacking even if it's understandable; it's not like I'm launching into a huge push on you for not matching a pattern or anything along those lines.

[Nachomamma8]

There's also the fact that, outside of you apparently thinking I'm scum, the people I *am* POE'ing as scum are the same as yours. Why is it that I'm supposedly playing such an "uncharacteristically weak" game here if I'm in the same fucking position you are? I don't understand at all how you can have the exact same reads I have and then claim that I'm not playing well for ... reasons.

"Uncharacteristically weak" for you refers to more your ability to be correctly read as town by most of the playerlist through your thought processes, not through your reads. I am very rarely a universal townread in games here unless something really weird happens but for you it's more strange for you not to be a universal townread by late day 1. Do you disagree?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you think I *couldn't* push anyone if I was scum here?

No, I do, and I think it's probably more likely that you step in the power vacuum and take control as scum since it's something people are expecting out of you and it wouldn't be hard for people to sheep you out of desperation since most people are just looking for anything to follow at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

[Nachomamma8]

I hate this game.

[Nachomamma8]

I would also expect you should be aware that I sure as hell would be able to bullshit a push on someone if I actually was scum (as one example: what we did to MS D1 of Over the Garden Wall) especially given how I've always talked about how I've got a lot better about faking conviction recently.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect pushes from you to come easier to you when you're town as opposed to when you're scum, although it also makes sense for pushes to be difficult to come by in this game in general.

Pie, this is the post that I'm referring to.

[Nachomamma8]

I was hoping nacho would come back before deadline and talk about who he thinks should be the day's lynch.

I think that Boon lynch is lazy and I really really don't think it's likely to hit scum. I think his self-meta burst was town because of how it unfolded, it felt very solidly like a town response to being pushed just so he could town, if that makes any measure of sense at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: RedCoyote

This is where I'd rather go.

[Nachomamma8]

For the record, the initial vote is based on feeling and no reason beyond that. I am reading through him now and reasons are soon to come if I still feel good about it, but reasons that I come up with are not reasons I had in mind when I made the vote.

[Nachomamma8]

But, him saying he hates this game made me start to wonder if he's intentionally mirroring fery.

You don't see where I'm coming from, then?

[Nachomamma8]

First read through of RC brings out the problem of me not liking the relative ease of his votes: RC as town usually picks a fight with someone loud and town (or, at the very least, finds problems in their play), but this game he hasn't really done that at all except maybe with the vote on SS but then he ended up dropping that decently quickly.

His hammer on Anen was a slight ping because he bothered setting it up at all; I think that was a call-back to classic RC-scum worrying about being image conscious with a decently iffy move.

[Nachomamma8]

I would much rather see RC full claim than half-claim. Not specifying his claim today probably doesn't have that much utility as town but as scum, it can prevent his lynch today and allow him to out a power role tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

as there could be multiple of the role

This is pretty uncommon on MS, especially in a normal game.

[Nachomamma8]

Well I mean, I know I'm town, and I don't feel like I've done any of the things he's accused me of. But not one person call him out or tried to get him to elaborate or pointed out that it was wrong, so maybe I'm just crappier at this than I think I am.

I let boonskies be boonskies sometimes, I don't think his weird reasoning is really indicative of scum and I don't think that me refuting his logic would help him much because the real reason he's reading you as scum is because his gut says so.

[Nachomamma8]

We also have 8 hours left, so we need a lot more urgency in this thread that I can't provide because I will be working soon.

[Nachomamma8]

Implosion, why have you gone so quiet lately?

Since this might be my last opportunity to post, I still don't think you should shoot. For one, you will bring the game to evens if you shoot which means you're possibly using one our mislynches which doesn't make me happy; vigging is inferior to lynching since you lose out on all of the pre-lynch reactions, claims, and just sort of hoping that another kill disappears seems dangerous.

[Nachomamma8]

My theory on N1 was that scum was setting up a one-shot vig claim, and I'm currently trying to figure out how likely that is based on reads right now.

I don't think scum fakeclaiming vig fakeclaims two-shot, but I would be happier with reads if implo took a consensus-directed shit tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

Ffery/Tammy are almost certainly town. RC-town makes a lot of sense setup-wise. If implosion is also town, that means that there is only one town in notscience/Vinkah/Pieguyn/Wicked, which feels weird.

[Nachomamma8]

That's twice your end of day behavior has bothered me.

My reasons for thinking he was town had to do with me thinking that he wouldn't play a scum game like this because this isn't anywhere close to how RC plays scum. When I reread him, I was rereading him through the lens of "how would RC play to his town meta as scum?" and I started noticing small things that seemed like his normal town meta but had good advantage for scum, seemed awkward or a little bit off.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nachomamma8

what are your current reads?

Why did this vote come so late?

[Nachomamma8]

I think rc has convinced me to take a more serious look at vinkah.

And things like this is why I don't really like implosion.

[Nachomamma8]

what would a role blocker be necessary for? It's also the most unoriginal mafia role in an already unique setup.

Preventing confirms, preventing blocked kills, acting as a soft guilty for role cop once more information is outed.

If there is a blocker, it's probably definitely limited.

[Nachomamma8]

As far a scum roles, With an extra kill in the game, I would expect a protective role. And that would also potentially mislead a role cop result.

I think scum team probably has a godfather or ninja that acts as a guilty for role cop. Don't think scum team has a protective even if implosion is town.

[Nachomamma8]

I can possibly imagine SS having jailkept tammy, btw. It would make sense if (like me) he thought Tammy was going to die, and he was hoping that I was going to shoot. Especially since he was a jailkeeper he might have had reason to believe that tammy wasn't going to be blocked because he might have thought scum had no roleblocker. All speculative though.

We should probably hold off on setup spec until after we massclaim. Or at least don't jump to any conclusions.

Idk about scum having a blocker. I could imagine tammy having been blocked by scum or jailed by ss.

Also, the other game I was in just ended. It ironically had a 2-shot vig and a town rolecop (plus a gunsmith) against a mafia watcher who automatically watched the scum kill, and a doctor.

So yeah, 2-shot vig + rolecop might mean there's a scum doctor.

useless.

[Nachomamma8]

Vanilla townie, Vinkah next.

[Nachomamma8]

Or replacement, or whatever.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Vinkah

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I'm not sure why you're writing off RC for his role making sense setup-wise when we have yet to massclaim. His role could make sense setup-wise but that doesn't preclude the possibility that he was just setting up a fake miller claim as scum. Essentially the miller fitting in with the setup both can't really be said until we actually know what's being claimed to be in the setup, and doesn't preclude RC being scum.

I'd probably lynch any other power roles that claimed.
Don't really like you trying to weakly prod at RC: I imagine scum don't really have a whole lot of wiggle room right now and RC seems like a good target to prod at to gain just a little more.

Why did you like RC's Vinkah case?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why. I don't like massclaims when they stall the game, would rather people just claim when they show up.

[Nachomamma8]

I can claim if you like.

I had the impression we were waiting for Tammy to kick off popcorn or something.

That seems kinda dumb to me.
Don't mind you claiming now. Don't mind you claiming later if there are advantages in it; you're around thread more than anyone else so it doesn't matter so much.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nachomamma8

what are your current reads?

Why did this vote come so late?

What does this mean?

Timing seemed strange.

[Nachomamma8]

notscience/Vinkah/Pieguyn/Wicked, which feels weird.

In this group, probably guessing notscience/Wicked would be town if implosion-scum, probably notscience if just one town?

[Nachomamma8]

you should claim!

[Nachomamma8]

and popcorn!

[Nachomamma8]

Vanilla townie, Vinkah next.

I can claim again if you want me to?

[Nachomamma8]

Implosion, where's the post you said you would make once massclaim was over?

[Nachomamma8]

it seems like an peculiar tact for scum-RC to make to come bellowing in to this day with such a large case on vinkah,

It's a strange scum tactic to push hard for a lynch at the beginning of the day? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

way it was claimed feels like an unnecessary risk as scum.

As in claiming PR first?
Why is that?

How do you think the claim fits in with the overall setup?

[Nachomamma8]

The realization that parts of vinkah's disillusionment with the game feel disingenuous is extremely significant to me

What parts of Vinkah's apathy feels town to you?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho/pie: is this an accurate description of how you think you'd have played this game if you'd rolled scum together?

That's an accurate description of how we played together in a recent Marathon game. I'm not sure that's how our first forum game together would end up, but.

[Nachomamma8]

But it got left in there.

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

It's a strange scum tactic to push hard for a lynch at the beginning of the day? Why?

Yeah, I kept modifying that line as I was typing it. It felt like something I really wanted to comment on and that felt significant that I couldn't put my finger on. Idk, maybe notable is just the right word. Honestly I think as I was writing out that part of the post I sort of half-realized that no, that would actually be an incredibly likely ploy for scum-RC to pull, and that didn't really fit in in my head. But it got left in there.

As in claiming PR first?
Why is that?

How do you think the claim fits in with the overall setup?

In general making such a big deal about it. The claiming "not a vt" thing I think just draws more attention to RC if he's scum and I don't think he would want that kind of attention. Especially if we lynch someone else without forcing him to claim - that just makes it awkward that he didn't die, which would be additionally difficult for him to explain. It would just be putting extra obstacles in his way as scum in a way that doesn't make much sense.

Claiming non specific PR means that there's the chance that he can draw a lynch away from himself without risk of counterclaim. He would very easily be able to explain himself still being alive by scum being afraid of protection.

[Nachomamma8]

The realization that parts of vinkah's disillusionment with the game feel disingenuous is extremely significant to me

What parts of Vinkah's apathy feels town to you?

On brief inspection this seems like a very good example. The "I have a group of townreads and beyond that I really wish someone would just tell me what to do/give me something to sheep" mimiced my feelings strongly. But it isn't a matter of a single post, it was a series of posts and having anything in that series of posts that feels less than genuine (of which I see some now) sort of makes the whole thing a lot weaker.

What specifically felt less than genuine?

[Nachomamma8]

But it got left in there.

Why?

I'm not usually particularly meticulous about editing posts after writing them and I think my brain got caught up in the point after that one as I was writing it so I just kind of forgot about it.

I'm not a huge fan of this response, but there's not really anything I can do about it, so badman.

[Nachomamma8]

Well he didn't really have to risk counterclaim anyway, he crumbed miller and was planning to claim miller and miller isn't really a counterclaimable role

It's also not a claim that is very effective at turning around wagons very quickly.

[Nachomamma8]

683 on first glance to me looked similar to how I felt but now on further inspection it looks more like an excuse to not ever be solid on anything, rather than having a desire to get solid reads asap.

How was this different than what you posted?
How was this different than what Tammy posted with the hand-holding comment?

[Nachomamma8]

Firstly- I don't see any distinction between the two bolded comments.

The first comment is that I wasn't really considering him playing to a different scum meta; his play here looked nothing like his normal scumgame and that was good enough for me. The second comment is that I wasn't looking for a normal scumgame; I was looking for things that were missing from his towngame but were less obvious (RC's choice of targets, tone).

[Nachomamma8]

Secondly- none of the "small things" that made you change your mind actually seemed small. This was your reasoning;

Picking up on who he's pushing instead of focusing on the reasons he is pushing them is a subtlety to me. Is this an unreasonable viewpoint to have? Why?

I doubt you talked about RC's hammer being image-conscious, which was my point. I'm guessing you said something along the lines of "that was opportunistic and too early and not well-reasoned and you were setting up for a townflip by saying a VT flip wouldn't be so bad!", which is not my reasoning at all.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like RedCoyote's hammer vote.

-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:

If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.

feels like setup for a known mislynch.

Vote: RedCoyote

yeah, close enough.
None of this has anything to do with why I found RC's hammer suspicious. Why should I have commented on it?

[Nachomamma8]

Better point than I thought you'd have.
Why do you think I'm scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

The nacho/pie thing really doesn't convince me especially after Nacho's reply.

So this is actually a really weird line of thought to me: you ask us if we'd play like this as scum together, what do you think we would say if we were scum together?

"yeah dude this is EXACTLY what we'd do as scum together!"

or
"Nah no way in hell we play like this as scum together!"

[Nachomamma8]

Maybe I worded that poorly. I'll see if I'm a better communicator in the morning or evening or whatever.