Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[RedCoyote]

The big M

vote: Cabd

MOD: V/LA until Monday.

I should probably be able to get on and post time to time but I won't be around much until I get back from vacation.

and I think notsci is town!

ftfy

also cabd isnt in this game

(emphasis added)

Why are you pushing this so hard?

[RedCoyote]

How did this game get so boring so fast? Maybe it's just me, but I saw nothing in those pages that I want to talk about.

[RedCoyote]

I'd rather go to pub quiz than play another game as town. D:

Especially with Tammy as I know we'll eventually start butting heads and I don't really wanna.

Honestly, I don't want to play with notscience. He really pissed me off the last time I played with him. I'm secretly wishing he would replace out except it's not really a secret now. I think I'll just policy vote him for now because I am bitter.

VOTE: notscience

[RedCoyote]

Aneninen, are policy votes always necessarily bad reasoning?

[RedCoyote]

ns, do you like my new avatar? lalaladucks made it for me. It's the two of us playing together. On a scale of 1 - 10, how jelly are you?

[RedCoyote]

ffrey, how do you say your own username in your head?

[RedCoyote]

Well lets see

I have Uni as my avatar

And uni is the best.

So, not really?

I'll mark you down as 11.

[RedCoyote]

I feel bad that Nacho has become the designated RC reader, lol.

[RedCoyote]

I am just curious. If you rolled mafia, what would you do in a situation like this?

Feign interest and scumhunting. As scum, for me, it's easy to focus on the game because I have a clearly defined goal (e.g. fool players X, Y and Z into thinking you are town). As town, you have no such goal. You can't simply act town... you have to be town, help the town and find scum on your own. I have no idea what alignments of the other players are, so I have no direction with which to follow.

[RedCoyote]

I think that, if he was actually pissed off at notsci, wanting to policy him would be something he'd have felt like doing at the start of the game or when he first started to push him.

More like it was just something I fell back on as a place to put my vote for lack of better place.

I also hate that when Anen pushed him over it he wrote it all off as a "policy vote" when he had previously poked at notsci for a non-policy reason.

*shrug*

I think they can co-exist. I don't like him in general for how anti-town I consider his play, and I also found something I thought was legitimately scummy. I don't see a problem with that.

To be fair though, and I need to drill this in my head for future town games because I tihnk I've done this in the past, I need to be more aware of how easy of bait this is for people. When you start throwing words around like policy, people expect you to

solely

be voting someone because you don't like something about their personality or playstyle and that you think the person themselves is not conducive to a healthy town environment. When you mix that with actual scummy things that are entirely contained within the current game, that breeds understandable confusion that is ripe for scum to pick at and/or town to get confused by.

---

VOTE: RC

Were you just waiting for someone else to go first before jumping on?

---

If you felt like there was a lack of content early on in the game worth discussing, why would you want to push the game in this direction?

Fair point. Laziness, I guess.

"Guys the lack of content in this game is bad, I'm just gonna make silly posts at the person I'm voting."

Pretty much, lol. In reality I thought maybe it would endear them to me a bit more, but I wonder if I am just not cut out to be too jokey with people. It always seems to get me into trouble.

Overall the tone of his posting just feels inconsistent in a manner that feels forced and not real.

Of course it's forced. I drew town.

---

As scum, would you ever entertain the thought of acting uninterested and policy-voting on page 4 just to go against your meta?

Well, how deep do you really want to go with this? Absolutely I would. I think I could calculate it better, however. But, and doesn't it feel like we say the same things over and over on this site, I don't want to really bring meta into it. Some days you're on, some days you're off. Sometimes happy, sometimes sad. We're not robots. Feelings matter. Emotions matter. These things change us. How we think, talk, posture...

This is a stretch. Also, the implication is that Vinkah is defending his scum buddy, so this point kind of revolves around RC being scum. Yet you opted to stay off the RC bandwagon, perhaps to avoid looking opportunistic?

I like this point. I wanted to say something similar, but I couldn't find the right words for it. +Town points.

---

Its not so much the people saying it are its just like "inb4 scumteam whiteknights each other"

This is an unreasonable concern, I think, and isn't as likely to come from a townie than it is to come from scum frustrated that an early (which means almost necessarily weak) case is being brushed aside as the town start putting their thoughts together.

---

I came here seeing some posts but... I really have nothing to comment on right now. :/
Still waiting on RedCoyote, still waiting on Anenineninenineni.

Ah, ten-hour work day on Saturday and a three-hour drive. Big, cumbersome project going on this month. Hopefully I'll have more downtime during the week though.

---

Note the highlighted part.

And? This is slimy. You're trying to parse you saying "it sounded in your mind like" versus "it sounded like" in a dishonest way.

By the way, it's good to know how easily you can jump on a wagon which has just gained momentum shortly before.

I don't think that makes it any less valid. If you have an issue with the content, sure, you ought to speak up. This isn't fair otherwise.

---

My two dumb self-centered thoughts right now are that it seems like people are trying to make a PoE pool on D1 with eight pages which seems really strange to me and that it seems kind of balls that I'm being called scum for not being obvtown.
Isn't there some law about innocent until proven guilty!!?
:c

This seems so petty. To be fair, he cut it with a preface that they were self-centered thoughts, which takes the edge off some. Additionally, I like the fact that you're taking a stand against both Tammy and Ane. That strikes me as independent and, therefore, more townie.

---

This is ridiculous. I have trouble believing that you believe any of this could be true.

+1

---

You must have realized that I'm without any allies in this game

This sort of melodrama is uncalled for and Ane seems to lack serious perspective. You can't help but notice how cagey he sounds.

---

You think that I open up the game bussing my scum partner? That seems kind of like a poor choice to me.

This answer is so straightforward and factual. I have to wonder how anyone can't like at that and go, "Yeah, you're right". This whole post is on point.

---

I want to see what Anen does in this game when he is given more space.

I take this to mean you think he's performing well under pressure?



Town reads in no particular order: pie (the most fair detractor of mine, and I appreciate her seeking cooperation in forming a wagon on me ... I also like her being a bit of a wild card in the sense of defending Cheetory while supporting the case against Ane)
Wicked (like his points against Ane, seems like the lifeblood of that wagon in a good way ... 201 and 204 +1 each)
ffrey (extensively open, would like to converse with her more as I get my bearings and am able to commit more time to the game... work has kept me busy unfortunately ... I can single out posts, but very many are good)
Tammy (so far so good, another honest approach to the game that I cannot find anything devious in so far ... though I am open to perhaps not reading her closely enough)
Nacho (154 I like especially)
implosion (155 comes across as honest)
Cheetory (though I hate how it started, 195 ended strongly and gives a real independent (read: not part of a scumteam) vibe ... same with 203 ... his 253 is the real deal as far as scumhunting is concerned and I appreciate the inquisition it contains)
Vinhak (at first I weary of including him as it was liable to sound self-interested, but I've also appreciated his posts that don't defend me ... is he an alt? see 287, 292 and 297 for examples of towntells here. I don't even know this guy, but these little snippets read positive to me. I feel like I know him because I can relate to those feelings. Not a strong townread, but townread nonetheless)

Scum reads in no particular order: notscience (comes across as opportunistic, trying to force townreads of himself down players' throats)
Gnomeo (like the points Nacho made, have seen nothing from Gnomeo that otherwise contradicts these ... that said, I liked his 192, so I may hold off on this)
Ane (his paranoia and attempts at playing the victim are starting to reach critical mass... several examples but see 211 for a good one. I am not liking the way he's responding to his wagon at all)

[RedCoyote]

I apologize for that coming across as somewhat scatterbrained. I wanted to get something down. There's a lot in there, but I will try to focus a bit more going forward. I feel unlike myself this game and I don't know why? Maybe I'm playing through a burnout period and it's showing a bit. As with most of us, I think, this game is cyclical and we go through phases of it getting stale and dreading having to visit the site and it feeling like a chore versus it being fresh again and you can sit on the site for hours crafting posts and thinking about what you should do next and getting excited when you see new posts and writing run-on sentences.

[RedCoyote]

pie, did you want to talk to me 1-on-1?

frey, sorry, I was literally checking out right after I wrote that post. I may be on a little longer tonight. I was more saying that as a general thing, not that I had anything specific I wanted to bat around with you. Though I am open to hearing if you want anything from me.

[RedCoyote]

frey/Nacho + others, I appreciate y'all sticking up for me in spite of me ignoring the game the last couple of days. I've been crazy busy at work. I'd go into details, but I know y'all don't want to hear my problems.

I will make it a point to give make a big post later today.

[RedCoyote]

I was thinking Nacho was scum, but I agree that his last string feels townish. In particular, I like his posts wrt Gnomeo. If Gnomeo was town, I wouldn't expect scum-Nacho to back off from that vote so easily - the switch to Cheeto feels like a genuine progression. This is also waaaay more active Nacho than I remember from #YOLOville where he was scum.

I really like this train of thought. It's well explained. Wicked has a way of really talking in such a way that strikes me as believable and approachable vis-a-vis a town mindset.

I sense a lot of openness this game. Wicked, Tammy, Cheetory, Nacho, frey and pie all give me these vibes in one way or another.

---

I love the exchange between Gnomeo and Tammy (see 418 - 427). This just feels like two townies talking about a disagreement in a calm manner, pinpointing a disconnect, and striking this fair "equilibrium" of sorts.

---

RE: Wicked's 429: I disagree with that vote as of right now, but I am willing to let it develop.

---

I feel like my reads have been slowly (read: quickly) decaying since Anen vanished. I actually have no idea who I want to vote for right now

This reads town coming from implosion.

---

I love pie's 448. Further, you cannot attack her for trying to defend Gnomeo in some unwarranted manner as Gnomeo was feeling pressure, for one, and two, Gnomeo had already spoke about the subject. In other words, this reads very analytical and very "I'm-town-that's-putting-real-effort-to-figuring-out-the-game".

---

To be perfectly honest, I'm feeling a little discouraged atm and I'm neglecting a bunch of shit in general atm.
I do intend to pull my shit together and get my head in this game, but I have to be an asshole and wait until I have the time to take this seriously or I'm not going to be doing anything useful when I'm posting here.
I'd understand if I look a little tasty for a lynch right now, but I promise that if you give me enough time, I'll make it super clear that I got a townPM this game q.q

This post feels genuine, but I also think Cheetory is capable of faking that.

It's hard for me to follow both Cheetory's case against Tammy and Nacho/pie's frustration with Cheetory as it appears to be very heavily influenced by another game that I can guarantee you I will not take the time to read or reflect on.

That said,

Faking being angry is an easy way to generate content, seem genuine and get townread.

I love this quote.

---

Where is Layla?

Said nobody ever.

I'll be busy till Friday so I'll be back at Friday.

I don't care for this post. Frankly, I think you received too much credit earlier for questioning someone's early townread on you. Yeah, that post was okay, but that was about the only okay thing about your play that I can recall.

---

Cheetory's 471 again has me scratching my head as to why people aren't getting town pings all over the place from this fellow. Is he known to be so self-deprecating as scum? We've played a couple of times, and I never got that impression. Cheetory, I think, would be far more bullish as scum. Here he reads as genuinely feeling slighted and unable to really get his footing on why he can't come across more effectively.

Maybe this is overkill, but I still don't think he's the best vote today.

---

lol @ 485 and 486. I have no problem with going after lurkers.

My top three are now probably notscience, Anen and Layla.

---

I am super behind in life, but Empire is visiting so yay!

Get him to tell you who the scum are.

---

I am not sure how I feel about the pages I just skimmed

This is not townie.

---

pie's 500 is, like, people (e.g. pie, frey) knowing me better than I know myself. And that's kind of weird. In a good way though.

Anyway, good post. I can't help but say that I agree with that interpretation.

---

Is it crazy for me to townread this post really really hard?

Probably, right?

It actually is. We're too comfortable with each other and one of these days one of us are going to fool the other one real good.

[RedCoyote]

Crap, I forgot to spellcheck.

I think notscience needs more votes. I sincerely do.

[RedCoyote]

I'm actually going to go as far as saying that I do not think I would be satisfied with any lynch outside of Layla, notscience and Anen at this point.

[RedCoyote]

Scarab is your alt, right?

Also we played chat mafia a couple of times.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, well, nevermind then.

You two have very similar styles, I think.

I still like you for town.

[RedCoyote]

RC, thoughts on #256?

Okay, I forgot about that one. That's a pretty good post. :/

But the fact that I forgot about it is telling.

was trying to find what was bothering me.
i don't know what to make of it, but the best way to describe it is listing those three and voting ns who pretty much everyone has as eh? while it seems that there is a least a small contingent wanting to push Anen is underwhelming?
putting Layla in there also is also a bit surprising.

I don't understand the point you are making with this post. If there's something I'm supposed to respond to here... you should clarify.

---

But,
I don't think anyone really cares about my posts at all.
If I'm here and answer things = I'm called scum.
If I'm away for RL reasons and don't do anything = I'm called scum.

Here we go...

You don't fit my thoughts as a scum. In other words: I have much stronger scumreads than you.

It seems like you have the opposite problem of a lot us... too many scumreads and not enough townreads, yeah?

---

also can we please not lynch Gnomeo

...he's not even being voted now? :/

---

Can you explain why you think Layla would say this, if scum?

Given that Ane is the leading lynch, she sees no reason to put herself out there and perhaps may feel entitled to lurk a bit and let it stew.

[RedCoyote]

I think I'd be willing to hammer Ane. I am looking at his ISO right here, and his scumreads seem to vary pretty wildly over the course of his posts (e.g. as pressure has mounted). I think there's a fair chance he could flip town, but I think most of us are playing pretty townie here. notscience would be my preference, and I definitely think he's skated by today, but Ane would be my number 2, I suppose.

Further, if we go back to 578, I think Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips. I also believe in practical choices, especially on D1. If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have. As Ane said, a competing wagon would be nice, however.

UNVOTE: notscience; VOTE: Aneninen

[RedCoyote]

Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed.

Yeah I

seriously

doubt that's a mafia kill

Also I agree sans evidence of two kills in the game that the gnomeo kill doesn't look like a target by mafia.

He had no votes at the end of the day. ffrey put forth a pretty solid defense of him yesterday. I mean, this seems like a odd jump to make right off the bat. Granted, I have no problem with Gnomeo being a potential vig shot... but he's just as valid a mafia shot as any. I mean, I can think of a few better ones, but it wasn't horrible. Perhaps he was on the right track scumhunting wise? I would not automatically assume that he wasn't a mafia shot. I would need to see something more substantial (e.g. multiple kills/role cop/no kill/etc).

RC, in your hammer post you indicated an Anen lynch wouldn't be too informative, but there might be something to glean from his reads. What do you glean?

Based solely on the flip? implosion. Possibly Nacho. That comment about shadowing is probably the best one. Which players were padding the wagon, either acknowledging that or not, while trying to back away from that vote? Do you get what I'm saying? Like... which players were on the wagon but not really "on" it. Or were at least giving that impression.

---

I was really ready to vote notscience today, but I like his back and forth with ffrey from 749 to 761... so that kind of pisses me off because now I have to make a harder choice with my vote unless someone can sell me back to notscience.

---

-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:

If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.

feels like setup for a known mislynch.

My first reaction to this is frustration. I see where you are coming from, and I can appreciate that you're trying to go in a new direction in light of the two flips, but I hate how predictable players in this game are sometimes.

1) Of course I was uncertain. I thought the Ane lynch was a reasonable one. I wasn't convinced he'd flip scum. I mean, odds are the players we lynch will flip town. That's always the case.
2) I sometimes have to wonder if, as town, I need to just start being as dishonest as I am as scum. I mean, Wicked, you're essentially telling me to not be straight with you. You know what I think is straight? Telling people that a D1 lynch where you get no claims other than one VT, lynching said VT, and having them flip VT is a pretty good result for the town. That's sensible. It's not ideal, no, but that's a pretty good outcome, all things considered. Every time I find myself in a position to say that (it doesn't happen every game due to themes, early claims, early hammers, individual reads, etc), it's inevitable someone comes after me for that with some version of that same line.

...and because of all this, I like pie's 785 a lot.

---

Going back in time a bit...

okay. i really don't know where to push outside Anen at the moment and it is absolutely scaring the shit out of me. the longer this day is proceeding the less my townreads are staying firm. and its nothing more than paranoia.

VOTE: Vinkah

A lot of people have used similar lines, but I don't like Vinkah's. Now that Ane has flipped, this just doesn't sit as well with me. There's something about riding the Ane wagon all day mixed with the contradictory nature of this post (see: "I don't know where to push outside Ane" vs "the less my townreads are staying firm" vs "it's due to paranoia"). Well, no, it's not due only to "paranoia" as there's certainly more than one scum.

Look, you know, we have to make some difficult choices this game. I realize a lot of Vinkah's posts give off good vibes, but you have to look at the weak posts (of everyone) and find out which seem worse than other people's weak posts. I think Vinkah has some. I think Tammy has a few. implosion, too.

[RedCoyote]

760 in particular seems like town that is struggling with where to go.

Though, now that you mention it, I don't like that he wasn't already voting, didn't vote after the exchange, and then threw out that weak "why is everyone townreading RC?" which can and should be read as "I want to vote RC, but I want to test the waters and make sure I'm not the only one, so someone else go first". Which is a little funny because he did this at the beginning of the game, too. (read: 91, 118 and 119 in order).

[RedCoyote]

I'm not going to townread you for reading his ISO in another game and comparing thoughts with ffery, if that's what you're asking.

If this is addressed to me, I don't know what you mean by this...?

[RedCoyote]

I was just thinking of scenarios where I could accept such wild speculation after a single kill N1. One of them would be if there were a role cop that uncovered an SK or vig or doctor or bus driver or etc.

[RedCoyote]

I claimed a vig on your slot that didn't go through.

Care to share?

So you didn't shoot Gnomeo?

---

Side note: I was fully expecting RC-scum to vote for notscience and the vote for Vinkah confuses me...

I don't like that verb. What's confusing about it? Please elaborate.

[RedCoyote]

I don't think this push on SS is particularly good. I don't think the comment about Ane is alignment indicative.

[RedCoyote]

Vinkah, I should read it as a good thing that you and everyone else ignored my vote on you, right?

[RedCoyote]

I forgot Nacho was in this game.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wait, I forgot SS replaced Layla. I kind of want to join it now.

[RedCoyote]

Can we wagon Nacho or RC or something

i could be OK with RC... maybe. seems to be consistently floating

Eh, it's a boring game. I tried to engage multiple people earlier and no one wanted to talk to me. implosion did a little, I guess.

UNVOTE: Vinkah; VOTE: Soft-spoken

I'm not voting Wicked. The case against him is pretty lame and I don't like the two people on the wagon.

[RedCoyote]

*shrug*

I don't know what you expect out of me. I laid something out. No one engaged me. Positively or negatively. I brought it up again. No one engaged me. Positively or negatively. Now I get two votes because I wasn't sufficiently responsive to... being ignored? Lol, okay, whatever.

your post-flip reads were in implo/nacho... then you voted vinkah for semantic contradiction in a post. nowhere in there do i see anything hinting about me or layla being scummy... you even said the wagon on me was bad.

1) I love how you are feeling the pressure so you resort to voting someone on your wagon because you're panicking.
2) My post-flip reads are in who I say they're in, not who you say they're in.
3) What does Vinkah's position on Layla have to do with anything?
4) The wagon on you was bad before I realized you replaced Layla and not Cheetory.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Soft-spoken; VOTE: notscience

[RedCoyote]

notscience, explain 815 to us again.

[RedCoyote]

Nah, I just got home from a BBQ. This caught my eye. I was actually planning on not posting, lol.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I'll bet. More like a plan B.

[RedCoyote]

I'm remembering crumbing vig in the Rage mini normal game, though I don't think I ever pointed back to the crumb. I was the SK.

I made a vig-like NK on night 1.

meh.

Would SK shoot Gnomeo?

[RedCoyote]

It's potentially notable that Nacho was the third spot on both my wagon and the eventual Anen lynch wagon.

Agreed.

[RedCoyote]

Which, hint, is what I told you last time you mentioned it.

FYI, you didn't say that was a reaction test, you said I wasn't reading you, which is a cryptic way of implying that you had soft-claimed prior to that post. In any event, you let it stand. I kind of see how you can twist it into a "reaction test" now after there has been a vig claim, but that's also p convenient.

[RedCoyote]

Gnomeo was (I think?) one of the only people suspecting implo at that point in the game

If this is true, I'll vote him with you, pie. Going back to read over him in ISO.

[RedCoyote]

355, 364 and 422 = evidence of Gnomeo suspecting implosion

UNVOTE: notscience; VOTE: implosion

I stand by the fact that Gnomeo was a pretty horrid vig kill (and this is on record from, like, my first post of the day), regardless of what happens here... BUT as an SK kill? Especially from implosion in light of what pie pointed out? I can totally buy that.

[RedCoyote]

how's that for your smoking gun, mr. science?

[RedCoyote]

implosion, why did you choose gnomeo for the kill?

ffrey, is there something unsettling about the fact that you even had to ask this?

[RedCoyote]

I was mostly shooting based on what I perceived to be the town's general reads, not my own.

have you ever played vig before and is this statement consistent with that?

[RedCoyote]

no wonder yall have a hydra. its like im trying to figure out an inside joke.

now you know how i feel 24/7

[RedCoyote]

Just because notscience does a "reaction test" doesn't make him town, fyi.

Who even does reaction tests anymore? what is this 2010?

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: implosion

If implosion is truly only 2-shot, I guess we'll find that out soon enough. He's using his next shot tonight?

[RedCoyote]

I don't want to vote Nacho... :/ Tammy and Vinkah are much better lynches than Nacho.

VOTE: Vinkah

Someone join me for real this time.

[RedCoyote]

Most people have told me not to, so as of now I'm not planning to. If people want me to use it (either on a pre-determined target or on a target of my choice or if you want to restrict me to a set of people, etc) I'm open to whatever.

If you don't then how can we rule out an SK? Just shoot notscience. Tell them I made you do it.

[RedCoyote]

It's potentially notable that Nacho was the third spot on both my wagon and the eventual Anen lynch wagon.

Agreed.

Why?

Why is it notable? Because you keep moving your vote.

you said I wasn't reading you, which is a cryptic way of implying that you had soft-claimed prior to that post.

And what makes you say that?

That was my interpretation of it. Let me put it another way, if ns was really just "reaction testing", why wasn't he blunt about that after the test was over? Why did he wait until after a vig claimed to be straight about it? What did he even gain from this so-called "reaction test"? These are the questions I am asking.

---

when RC and notsci are interacting it feels like tvs, but that might just be me confbiasing

big whoop, you're townreading everyone except me anyway

P edit 2. i was thinking the same thing nacho. if hes SK we have him by the balls already. if hes not then we save ourselves a PR lynch.

This "use the SK to our advantage" crap always ends up backfiring.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, I don't want to lynch Tammy anymore.

That was just a test? A reaction test, if you will. Lol, jk.

I dunno, I guess I could do Nacho. Something tells me he'd be more eager to be aggressive as scum in this game though. I don't get that sense from him here. Like, let me put it another way, it seems like there's this wide opening for a town leader in this game, and no one is filling that void. Perhaps scumNacho would.

[RedCoyote]

Mod, I'm not voting implosion. Get your vote counting skills together

~Fixed.

[RedCoyote]

It's potentially notable that Nacho was the third spot on both my wagon and the eventual Anen lynch wagon.

Agreed.

Why?

Why is it notable? Because you keep moving your vote.

you said I wasn't reading you, which is a cryptic way of implying that you had soft-claimed prior to that post.

And what makes you say that?

That was my interpretation of it. Let me put it another way, if ns was really just "reaction testing", why wasn't he blunt about that after the test was over? Why did he wait until after a vig claimed to be straight about it? What did he even gain from this so-called "reaction test"? These are the questions I am asking.

---

when RC and notsci are interacting it feels like tvs, but that might just be me confbiasing

big whoop, you're townreading everyone except me anyway

P edit 2. i was thinking the same thing nacho. if hes SK we have him by the balls already. if hes not then we save ourselves a PR lynch.

This "use the SK to our advantage" crap always ends up backfiring.

RC, how does using SK to our advantage "always backfire" ?

wtf? don't ask me to prove it, that's just... common knowledge

Truth be told, I have no idea, I just want implosion lynched because he's not me and he's got at least a 50/50 chance of being SK.

Eh... I've heard this said by cooler people than me in similar situations when I was on the opposite end.

[RedCoyote]

Wouldn't it be a trip if me, Vinkah and SS were a bloc?

Okay, so, uh, Nacho vs Boon?

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Vinkah; VOTE: Boonskiies

I'm not going to keep beating my head against the wall. Too many single vote wagons. I'd try for notscience if it wasn't so late in the day.

[RedCoyote]

oh and implo... shoot at will. aim for scum regardless of your alignment. remember that if you are SK and we miss this lynch, you need to kill mafia tonight to have a chance at this game. now it is consensus. a valid point was made that... at the very least you can prove that you arnt mafia.

This is very town sounding.

[RedCoyote]

I've been thinking about this game some. I keep coming to it and closing the tab. I've done that three or four times this morning. It's disappointing to see three votes on me in quick succession like that, but I don't think Nacho nor SS are scum. notscience, however, has been egging people on to vote me this whole game, yet he never once had the balls to do it himself. I want to point out a pattern here. If we don't lynch him today, then I hope someone is willing to take up the mantle and hold his feet to the fire tomorrow. I'm just going to point out a few posts, but I'll keep this pretty short and sweet:

RC nottown

@notsci

: you should wagon RC with me

VOTE: RC

I'm going to be giving [pie] sideways glances all game though.

Two things to point out here. One, I'm notscience's only scumread as of 91, but he doesn't vote me here. Immediately after pie tells him to vote me (and she votes me), only then is he comfortable doing the same. Make a note of this because there's a pattern forming here. The second thing I want to point out is that vote in 119 has a noteworthy qualifier in it, "Oh, I guess I'll vote with you... but IGMEOU!"

Why are people townreading RC again?

Can we wagon Nacho or RC or something

Okay, keeping with the pattern, here are two more instances of notscience slimming me from afar. He wants other people to do the voting so that he can join in. Neither of these times did anyone show resolve to do this on behalf of notscience (Wicked briefly voted me at the start of D2, but he removed it shortly thereafter and I think even he would say it was a rather weak vote).

They don't want to lynch RC so ...

Vote: RedCoyote

This is where I'd rather go.

VOTE: RC

its about damn time

And the pattern continues once again. notscience has yet to vote me on his own merits... he waits for others (in this case Nacho) to start the show, then jumps on acting like this is what he's been working towards forever. Well, yeah, he has been working towards it, in a manner of speaking. He's been working towards it by trying to get others to take the ownership of the actual wagon while he sneaks on behind them. First with pie, then he swung a couple of times and missed, and now with Nacho.

UNVOTE: Boonskiies; VOTE: notscience

In a way, I think the Boonskiies lynch was probably too sensible anyway, so I'm sort of glad Nacho voted me if only to shake me out of indifference to another day here. Whether I'm lynched, or notscience or Boon, we'll get more out of people than we otherwise would had. But, and I've said this before and I'll say it again, it's scary how accurate pie/ffrey were talking amongst themselves earlier about how to read me. They've got a real knack for it. I wonder if they're just as good with other people. And they're right on the money this game. And Nacho has that same knack, though he's misguided here.

Let me say one other thing, and this is kind of important:

I'm not a VT

. You can take that how you will. This may have led me to playing too conservatively. I don't know if I'll fully claim or not, but I do want that out there, I think, to influence y'alls decision on voting me or not.

[RedCoyote]

rc being scum would also make me feel better about how i feel about his vote on me earlier this Day.

Do you think that vote came from a sinister place?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: sliming

[RedCoyote]

but why would scum NS want to take credit for a lynch on town as scum?

It fits easily into that victim mentality he's been feeding us all game. Want examples?

[RedCoyote]

Let me rephrase, not victim mentality so much as, "I'm trying to towntell but sucking at it... poor me ;_; sry guys really thought rc was scum oh well"

[RedCoyote]

Besides, scum have to knowingly push town lynches for the majority of the game anyway. If you don't take credit for those pushes that you know are on town (as scum), then you come across as contrived. I don't think ns looks contrived here, but I do think he's insistent on others validating him so that he can spread the blame later. He won't make a move without someone else treading that ground in advance.

[RedCoyote]

looking for validation is extremely common. 80% of people intuitively want to follow the lead of others, regardless of if they have opinions.

Of course. I'm not disputing that that's part of the human condition. We're not getting into a psychological debate here over the tendencies toward approval.

My contention is that notscience hasn't led his own fights. Hasn't stood up for his ideas. Hasn't shown me that townie, individualistic spirit ... as it relates to the confines of our specific game of Mafia.

[RedCoyote]

psychological principles apply everywhere. unless you can prove that its not fitting of NS's personality it means nothing

I disagree. I mean, I agree, technically, but then there is no thing as scumhunting. I think you're looking at the game through way too broad a lens. Everything could be explained away by saying, "well, psychologically, people do X anyway, so it's null".

But if you're going to get meta, then yes, I have played with notscience on two previous occasions where he has tunnelled - I'm talking hard tunnelled over multiple days, in word and deed (read: vote), not seeking for or caring about validation like he is here - and he flipped town both times.

[RedCoyote]

Full claim is a miller. Breadcrumb in my first post.

Not a big loss or anything, but I didn't want to get lynched this game... at least not so early. I really wish y'all would have let me try and bait the kill tonight. I'm a bit disappointed that Nacho and ffrey didn't stick to their intuitions... very unlike them! They both had me down perfect early on this game. notscience and Vinkah, well, I get scummy vibes from both of them, so that's to be expected. SS is still probably town, but we haven't played together before and I can already tell we're not compatible playstyle-wise.

[RedCoyote]

Because I have been trying to bait a kill all game. Like I said, no big loss... but, eh, it's just a little disappointing. You (Wicked), Tammy, ffrey and pie were all so on point reading me earlier. I genuinely thought I could coast by and keep y'all, if not crazy town-reading me, at least content enough to ignore me for later. In the mean time, I had hoped I would aggravate the scum enough to get them itchy to shoot me.

As to why I was playing conservatively, it's because I was trying to give off cop vibes.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: and Nacho

[RedCoyote]

Also, ffrey, the last time I claimed miller I was scum, so I didn't want to stir that up again, lol.

[RedCoyote]

Scumreads: notscience, vinkah, maybe Nacho/implosion/Boon?
Townreads: pie, ffrey, Wicked, SS

Tammy could go both ways... which probably means she's scum. She's so unemotional this game that it's giving me the creeps a bit. She should be causing drama or someone should be trying to cause drama with her.

[RedCoyote]

Wicked: No idea, I will ask the mod if I'm not lynched.

Your second answer is no. Frankly, I usually get bored as town at some point.

[RedCoyote]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not a death miller... hold on.

[RedCoyote]

Just a town miller, so I'll probably flip as town.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know if a death miller is even a normal role.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, well, I'm not going to stress over this game anymore tonight. I'm unplugging. You have my reads, you have my claim and you have my reasons. implosion gets it. If I'm gone tomorrow, it's one less game I have to worry about.

Tammy seemingly only comes around when someone brings up her name (usually in the context of, "starting to suspect Tammy now...") I don't sympathize with her crying about having to defend her meta constantly because everyone has to defend themselves every game. She has no presence in this game. Granted, she has been busy, but when you get busy people are going to ask about you. V/LA or not, that's just how it is. We've all been around the block enough to know that.

SS, yeah, man, ditto. I'm not saying that as a slam or anything. It is what it is. You should see me and zMuffin or GreyIce... forget about it. I think Grey would rather eat a cactus than play with me, lol.

[RedCoyote]

I just said you were acting fake (unemotional, a.k.a. robotic) and you immediately responded "oh, everyone is complaining about my meta!! poor me! you should've seen me in another game and saw I'm different now!!" So now I say you're acting opportunistic and you go, "this is so objectively false if you have to come at me for something, come at me for being fake!!"

Keep scummin' it up, Tams.

Okay, really, really last post.

[RedCoyote]

Wow, what a crazy end to the day. I wish I would've been around to comfort poor Tammy, lol. I think she's town again. Same with notscience. Wicked, pie and ffrey are still town and the end of day discussions only strengthened that.

Yeah, I think Nacho goes back in the scumpile. He can take notscience's place.

Allow me to start D3 off with a VOTE: Vinkah.

1) Broken Promises in activity. Busy or not, you don't make constant promises regarding doing something by X date and then not follow through. This doesn't necessarily mean she has a scum alignment, but it does mean he's content and stringing the game along, which I consider anti-town. For examples of this, see 817, 1162.
2) Noticeable change in playstyle from D1 to D2. This could have something to do with scum discussion during N1, as is often times the case when you notice scum players changing radically over the course of a night phase. For examples of this, see D1: 129, 131, 272 VS 861, 863, 873 (notice in particular how much less opinionated he is... much less sure of himself, less inclined to make independent analysis)
3) I didn't realize how much fluff was in his posting until I looked at it from a more macro perspective in ISO. For examples of this, see 193, 267, 270, 273, 323, 338, 687 etc.
4) I'm still very uncomfortable with his line in 683, and no one, including Vinkah himself, has ever responded to why it makes sense. Maybe it's a little nitpicky, but when Vinkah says, "the longer this day is proceeding the less my townreads are staying firm. and its nothing more than paranoia", I don't understand that mentality. I understand being frustrated that you are losing townreads, but there are multiple scum in this game... so that's a good thing. Why would you shy away from this? You don't embrace paranoia, but you should embrace the chance to uncover something scummy about a player you may not have suspected before.
5) This certainly has some bias in it, but I don't like his turnaround on me. A couple of points on this. One, in 1556, Vinkah claims, essentially, that I would only vote him as scum. For one thing, Vinkah never engaged me at all about voting him. For another, Vinkah has never asked me anything in this game other than about my early Layla suspicions (hint hint, Layla's roleslot just flipped town... nice coincidence). Another point, we get this possibly misdirection play in his "I'm not reading notsci... but vote: RC" move. Vinkah even has the wherewithal to mention this when voting me (see: 1526, 1553 then 1555) In short, the turnaround on me doesn't feel natural. I don't see Vinkah ever trying to read Boonskiies. I see a clear dislike on notscience and a path of how he got there. I see no such thing in my case. Vinkah went from townreading me all of D1 (even getting into arguments about it), to bringing up some random topic about how I suspected Layla's roleslot (a player Vinkah himself was voting), to voting me at the last minute with ~24 hours to go.

---

Um, if anyone still has questions about my claim, I can answer.

I think RC claiming miller to "draw the night kill" is incredibly dumb, but he's probably town. let's go Boon.

I wasn't claiming miller to draw the NK. I didn't want to claim at all...

---

I think we should mass claim now. Anyone disagree?

implosion, did you shoot SS? If not, what made you decide not to kill? I said I was okay with either decision, but I was really hoping you would make a shot last night because two deaths would have confirmed you as not-mafia... Now you could be mafia...

Fingers crossed that SS didn't jail keep Tammy. If Tammy got a telling result, we can probably start to back scum into a corner with POE.

Agree.

I certainly hope SS wouldn't have jailed Tammy. That would've been downright silly. Didn't SS come back around to seeing townTammy after her lolclaim?

[RedCoyote]

vote: notscience

this would be the direction i would want to go today.

It would be nice if you elaborated on this. Are you not voting me because of my claim? Has notscience done anything in the past ~8 pages to change your read on him (apparently not, but why not)?

i'm super fucking busy and if i'm prod dodging or whatever to stay in this game that has zero to do with my fucking alignment.

This doesn't necessarily mean [Vinkah] has a scum alignment

For only reading one point, you sure didn't read it too closely.

Another thing, active lurking is a real thing. So, you know, I tried to bring that point up as calmly and matter-of-factly as I could, but I anticipated you'd push back on this one in particular.

the miller and rolecop together as town don't make sense (unless empire is fucking with us)

This was the entire point of Tammy's claim and posts at the end of yesterday. Presumably you skipped over them because you have no inclination nor need to try and figure out other players' alignments.

Further, if you thought these claims didn't make much sense, shouldn't this further validate your scumread on me from yesterday (or shouldn't you be pushing Tammy)?

don't give me shit about being busy and quantifying with shit like broken promises

*shrug*

I have no problem being the bad guy. Someone has to call you out for actively lurking through practically all of D2, busy or no. If Wicked or notscience or whoever wants to get on me for being too mean about it, so be it. I'm saying what needs to be said. If you're scum, this benefits you. If you're town, it hurts the town. Period.

like, the more i resfastskim his post i feel like rc is describing a person's playstyle that he is unfamiliar with rather than someone he thinks is actually scum.

Then it makes no sense for you not to be voting me. This is classic misdirection. "rc is so fucking scummy u guys need to vote him....... vote: notscience"

---

Though Red - I don't feel like I've been robotic. I have been trying to take some suspicion on me a bit more rationally or lightly, especially if it's something I might understand, in an attempt to keep the drama from getting very toxic though I don't exactly think it's my fault if noone creates drama with me and I don't know why it's a problem if I don't create drama with someone, especially since I'm very good at creating drama as scum anyway. I also didn't feel like I was whining or crying about my meta or being busy. It's not just this game; it's a shift that's been happening this year, and I have been explaining it as I've been getting concerns - one of which I did in a recent game with notscience in which I explicitly said it was an explanation for that game and any future games - so it did concern me that he wasn't taking that game into account. The fact of the matter is that I think a lot of the reason I got so easily town read is because I had a lot of time at one point to be extremely active and because I was and very engaged, I got town read very easily. Changes in my life over the course of the year means I don't have the time for that anymore. It's a good thing! But it has meant that I've had to shift my approach for games. So, when I've explained it in one game, I flip town, I expect that that would be some type of consideration for how to read me, not just expect that I'm going to suddenly act just like I used to a year ago. I don't know if that makes sense.

You don't need to get into all that, babe. I think you're town now.

Btw, what was your N1 report? I went through your posts again and I can't find it. Did you say already?

It does seem kind of harsh to put an SK and a role cop together in the same setup, doesn't it?

---

Also BTW, if the role cop visits a Mafia Goon, the result is "Vanilla"

Is this standard? I always assumed they'd see goon. This makes sense, but then I would have to think the scumteam didn't have any real power.

I've been thinking and I have an idea for how we can confirm implosion as not-mafia, but it only works if scum don't have a role blocker. So I'm curious what you guys believe...

I don't know that we have to prove it. The proof is in two NKs. I'm less inclined to believe implosion as an SK post-Tammy claim than I am prior to it, however. It just strikes me as unfair unless somehow implosion has a protection from it (but then that really weakens Tammy's role in a way that doesn't make sense to me).

---

It would make sense if (like me) he thought Tammy was going to die, and he was hoping that I was going to shoot.

This is a good point. I hadn't considered this.

I'm guessing your idea was to no-lynch?

I hate this idea.

Some of y'all might not be trusting your instincts enough. I know most of you to be top notch Mafia players here. Not trying to dote on you, just laying it out there. I'm town, Tammy is town, Wicked is town, notscience is town, ffrey is town. implosion shouldn't be lynched today (and setup spec points to town). I

think

pie is town, but I'm willing to delve a bit deeper there. Still, I think we should table her for today.

That doesn't leave very many people to lynch from.

---

But now that you mention it, if we lynch a scum doctor today, there's no reason why we can't try this tomorrow. Doctor + RB seems like an even greater stretch.

I could be game for this, however. I like the idea of a scum doctor in this setup, btw. That's good thinking. I only wished we'd have massclaimed prior to you and implosion talking this out, lol.

---

4) I didn't like RC's wall regarding vinkah. We were laying a lot of the groundwork for a vinkah push today, but he feels the need to present a case for something we had all been heavily considering. If implo is telling the truth, he's who I'd look to next. Tammy's felt legitimate in the way she claimed, obviously S-S was the jk so there's no denying. I'm just not sure I like him waiting to claim rather than the obvious come out with it at the start, but this is a playstyle difference that doesn't really mean anything.

You know, I thought someone might come after me from an opportunism angle, I was just hoping it would've been someone like Nacho so I could pounce on him for it. I can't do it with you because I know you're town now.

Think of it this way, ns. I was onto Vinkah wayyyy before anyone else was. This case was not arrived at as an effect of what anyone else said against him at the end of D2. I suspected him way before that. I can point to evidence of this (but I think you know this is the case).

Additionally, it's almost a PoE thing for me at this point. I have too many townreads for it not to be.

One last thing: I'm town, deal with it.

5) Today's lynch should be Vinkah. Tomorrow's should be pie. I don't think Nacho/pie are scum together because I think both would have steamrolled things rather than the way they have been, but I understand activity is a part of this, but they both aren't scum which means nacho is probably town.

I maintain pie is town, but I am willing to table that townread should the following events take place 1) we lynch Nacho or Vinkah today and they flip scum 2) pie is not killed over night.

It would make a lot of sense in my head is pie were to be scum, that's for sure.

[RedCoyote]

I think if nacho/pie were scum they would have strongarmed this game.

One of them is, yes.

Not both.

This is probably true.

We can cross that bridge when we come to it, but y'all need to look long at hard at the remaining players in this game after today.

[RedCoyote]

Nacho, you know you can't be town, right? You missed the end of D2. We had a big town meeting and only townies showed up (pie may have snuck in there at the end... not sure about that yet). Everyone else (read: you and Oversoul) went to bed early so you could scheme about your next NK.

[RedCoyote]

Anyway, am I supposed to comment on anything here? I am so totally ready for an Oversoul lynch, and I don't think anything else will satisfy me. I'm figuratively just sitting in the corner twiddling my thumbs while y'all blather on.

[RedCoyote]

I think he's town.

Any specific posts to direct me to?

[RedCoyote]

What worries me is that Oversoul gets that inevitable townbump from replacing in. If you replace into a slot and just show even a little bit of enthusiasm, you usually get a townbump.

Vinkah's replacing out wasn't scummy or townie, but it doesn't negate that slot being scummy. Vinkah didn't answer for his D2 play, including especially his poor, seemingly inexplicable voting choices.

I

will

say that scumVinkah points to scumnotscience more than it does townnotscience, but I do not want to lynch notscience today at all. I see no reason not to lynch Oversoul.

[RedCoyote]

On phone so don't want to find specific post. I wanted you to elaborate on what you were referring to when you said something like "I can't push you because I know why you're town now".

About this specifically, I just meant to convey how drastic of a change that end-of-D2 posting had on me. Early D2 I got warm fuzzies from notscience when he talked to ffrey, but it wasn't enough to completely sell me. When notscience stood his ground against Tammy, I felt so much more confident about him.

I don't want to make this all about Tammy, but there's just something about her. I don't want to use the word transparent, that's not it... but, it's like, she's open. She's an open book. I don't know a good way of putting this without feeling like I'm coming across as insulting her play, which is definitely not the case at all. You just kind of feel like you know her? More than most players, I think. I think scumnotscience would know how to more effectively confront Tammy in that situation (hint: you don't). Maybe I should point to examples as that would better explain what I mean.

[RedCoyote]

Note: A lot of this is assuming that Tammy is town, but even if Tammy is scum, I don't think this is how notscience would act unless notscience and Tammy are scum together... then all bets are off and I think we will be losing this game.

notscience = town

I'm not? I'm pretty sure this is the first time you've actually setup spec'd

So idk what you want me to say.

If this was earlier we wouldn't have this issue

So.

Alsoi haven't had a comp all day so I'm kinda trying to read while I'm hanging out so

You can flip out at me if you want but I'm pretty clearly not confident in my stance on you so idk why it matters that much

Pedit

Cool then I guess I'm a liar and should be lynched?

Or I missed it.

You decide

Tammy made a big deal about this line, "this is the first time you setup spec'd". notscience could've EASILY backed away from this comment, but he doesn't and this coupled with the fact that he doesn't immediately give Tammy credit for her claim is not what scum does. This is setting yourself up for failure if you are scum, I think. I could see from a mile away that this is the kind of thing Tammy would sink her teeth into, and I think notscience would, too.

BUT, as town, he genuinely wants to be able to read Tammy better, which is clearly what I see here. Let me put it another way: He's not trying to convince Tammy he's town (which scumanybody is obviously wont to do). While you don't necessarily need to do this to win as scum, you certainly don't need to be poking hornet's nests. Does this make sense?

I'm actually pissed right now

I'm not denying it so.

Pedit

Okay.

More examples of notscience going out of his way to be frustrating to Tammy. Again, another perfect opportunity for scumnotscience to smooth things over with Tammy instead of continuing down this unhelpful track (unhelpful for a theoretical scumnotscience, that is).

UH I'm reading through my posts and seeing notscience actually claim I don't setup spec. Someone please hold his feet to the fire tomorrow.

I'm not arguing against you.

I said I am not sure about you.

That does not mean I am arguing against you, you are like "HEY NOTSCI YOU CALLED ME TOWN FOR DOING THESE THINGS BEFORE AND I KNOW YOU DID SO WHY ARENT YOU CALLING ME TOWN HERE"

Like

Come on

you know better than that tammy

I missed the early setup spec, first off

second off, if I'm not sure, you throwing things I used to read you in past games at me isn't helping because *maybe* you are scum who knows how I read you and what to incorporate *not I am not saying you are but you kinda need to understand why this isnt helping your case any*

No, you said that I did not do something that you recognized me doing in other games and town read me for. That's false and disingenuous. I don't need to do something to get you to town read me over other people in this game, but you acted like it's something I haven't done and I can't undersandt why.

Except that's not what happened and I've already explained what happened.

You said I claimed I had never seen you setup spec, and I corrected it *and hint, after the fact it was discussed that I was wrong with what I had meant anyways* and I meant this game until that point.

So no.

Read the fucking game.

Just note the antagonism here. This is unnecessary. notscience had to know that Tammy was going to be getting town credit coming into D3. He isn't an idiot. This is not the way you treat Tammy at this point in the game as scum.

[RedCoyote]

Anyway, if myself, notscience, Tammy and Wicked all work together, we can win this game. Let's start by lynching Oversoul. We can bond over a nice, clean scum lynch.

(FYI this is also me saying that ffrey is the first one kicked off the island if by some miracle we make it to myself, notscience, Tammy, Wicked and ffrey as the last five living players).

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: as the last five living players

and the game isn't over yet

Uh I am not scum RC

yeah, yeah good for you

[RedCoyote]

it is likely he wouldn't have done anything that he knew would piss her off as town.

Tammy was reading wrong how? How how how? I don't understand why scumnotscience goes out of his way to piss off Tammy, which is what he did. I mean, he didn't do it to be cruel or anything, but my point is he didn't have to say anything about Tammy's setup spec, positive or negative. I contend, as scum, he sure as hell wouldn't have went negative. That makes zero sense. Especially after her claim. That only serves to put a greater target on his back when he was a very real possibility of being lynched. We disagree, darlin'.

Um, point me to the first post of you and ffrey talking and I will read over it and get back to you later.

[RedCoyote]

notscience, tell me how right I am. Then vote Oversoul. Not necessarily in that order.

[RedCoyote]

I've been a death miller before, fyi.

[RedCoyote]

Tammy was reading wrong how? How how how? I don't understand why scumnotscience goes out of his way to piss off Tammy, which is what he did. I mean, he didn't do it to be cruel or anything, but my point is he didn't have to say anything about Tammy's setup spec, positive or negative. I contend, as scum, he sure as hell wouldn't have went negative.

what would he have done instead, ignored it?

Yes! Lol. Obviously yes. There is no reason to paint himself in a corner as scum!

[RedCoyote]

Hell, notscience could've just turned the heat up on me, redirected the heat on me, or just lurked through the rest of D2 entirely. There was absolutely no reason to go toe-to-toe with Tammy. Absolutely none whatsoever.

[RedCoyote]

I mean, really, pie, go back and look at it. When I left for the night, Tammy cursed me and SS out. She was ready to hang the two of us up by the balls... and you're telling me scumnotscience tries to talk her out of that???? LOL

[RedCoyote]

I know I wasn't jailed night one as I got a result from gnomeo.

This makes sense but this really sucks, Tammy. You better die tonight. You're town, but you better die tonight.

---

which is a disingenuous as fuck response and doesn't read like he actually wanted to sort her. the second point is just that town-notsci should have been able to see that Tammy was town

If he was scum he wouldn't shoot from the hip like that. Are you crazy? No reason to take that risk. Why would he take that risk? He was half acting a martyr and laying the groundwork for people to go after Tammy if he was lynched. I can't speak for his mindset, but his head was probably spinning with possibilities. That's what you do as town on the ropes. Hell, I did the same thing to Tammy. Granted, it was before she claimed, but I don't know what I would've done if I didn't have the benefit of hindsight and the luxury of seeing the whole thing play out without having the participate. I might have pushed Tammy harder. I don't think I would've, but I might've.

and then when she asked him why she would go out of her way to tailor her meta towards him as opposed to anyone else in the game, he didn't answer it.

He didn't have to answer any of it. That's the disconnect between us, pie. You can't explain to me why he started this in the first place. All notscience had to do was say, "oh. I missed that, Tam. Good point" and be done with it.

[RedCoyote]

how do you see that making any sense? you're saying that notsci has no reason to respond to it when it was a direct question _prompted_ by Tammy.

but if you want to talk about avoiding going toe-to-toe with her, I think the way he responded to her questions later re: his concerns about her (hint: he didn't) was a fucking textbook example of it

pie, look, all he had to do was say, "fuck, yeah, i see what i missed now... sorry, tam tam". All he had to do. Or some variant of that. Maybe not so obvious, but you get my point. Tam was obviously very emotional at that stage and ready to kill RC, SS and Boon in one fell swoop. notscience wouldn't have had to be particularly convincing to get her to ease up off of him given that he was the only one of us three around and completely had the floor.

...and your contention is he deliberately riles her up and then tries to ignore her? Not much of a sound scum strategy if you ask me.

[RedCoyote]

Heck, I'll even give you an alternative. He could've acknowledged Tammy's frustrations and still gave her some tough love. "Okay, so you setup spec'd, I was wrong... but you need to be more vocal. You have been shirking away from this game all day and you know that" Something like that.

notscience probably wishes he were scum. A Boon or RC lynch would've been a piece of cake there if he knew we were both town.

There's just SO MANY other ways for notscience to have played that as scum. No way he irritates Tammy. No way. Too risky.

[RedCoyote]

pie, your argument would make more sense if Tammy was already thirsty for notscience's blood, but she wasn't. She briefly mentioned wanting to lynch him mid-D1 and never brought it up again. She never voted him until the end of D2 when he started pushing back at her. If anything, she bounced ideas off of him up until mid-D2 like a townfriend.

[RedCoyote]

I mean, look, I could be wrong. I don't claim to be a great scumhunter. That's not my forte and most of y'all know that.

That being said, I'm not lynching notscience today and probably not this game. If this town lynches him today, it will be without my help and I will work until the very end to fight against it. I'm very convinced that he is not scum. Tammy and Wicked, too. I will fight very hard for both of them to stay alive today. Probably ffrey, too. If any of those three were even on the table.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, I feel so nakedly town this game if you understand what I mean by that.

[RedCoyote]

I can't believe Nacho tried to lynch me, that's what I can't believe. That scummy bastard. That so lit a fire under me.

[RedCoyote]

Because I can rationalize whytammy and nacho are both tsill alive but you being alive is bugging me?

THIS IS SOMETHING TOWN SAYS.

So, pie, notscience is making enemies with ffrey now because that's such great strategy, right??? I'm not trying to be mean; I just think you are sooo off base and I want other people to think this, too. Like, who the hell plays scum by alienating every strong town player?

[RedCoyote]

Oversoul isn't townreading me = he knows he won't be able to convince me he's town regardless. How convenient.

Also LOL at "RC's claim was so bad, like really bad!!! btw... I claim

not VT

". FYI, Oversoul, that's exactly what I did.

[RedCoyote]

Here's one for you to answer, pretty boy. If I was scum fakeclaiming miller, why not do it when I crumbed instead of waiting??? Hmmm... didn't think about that one, did you?

[RedCoyote]

Also, if I was faking a miller, how did I know to do it BEFORE Tammy claimed? Another good question!

[RedCoyote]

Hell, how did I know to fake it on the first post of the game? Hmmm... tick tock, Oversoul. You should have answers prepared for these questions, after all.

[RedCoyote]

If Oversoul isn't lynched today I am going over to implosion's house, stealing the gun, and shooting him myself.

[RedCoyote]

ffrey and implosion need to get on Oversoul. Tammy needs to get on Oversoul when she gets back so we can end this charade. Goodness, Oversoul should've went after Tammy so pie could've called him town, too.

[RedCoyote]

However, holy fuck the coincidences of EVERYONE targetting Gnomeo night 1 is really, really, really not likely.

Anyone notice how Oversoul says this and then calls implosion and Tammy town??? Yeah, I noticed it.

---

it's a problem that rc isn't willing to accept a lynch other than os, and pie and ns aren't willing to accept a lynch other than each other

a problem that needs to actually be sorted out amongst you three and not shoved aside

You have a vote, too, son. What the heck is this?

[RedCoyote]

Im willing to accept my own lynch on the premise that you purge pie tomorrow.

NO. There's more than one scum in this game. Quit being anti-town, ffs.

[RedCoyote]

WHO did SS/Layla jail on N1??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[RedCoyote]

Im willing to accept my own lynch on the premise that you purge pie tomorrow.

NO. There's more than one scum in this game. Quit being anti-town, ffs.

you're doing the same thing :/

I'm voting; you're not. End of discussion.

[RedCoyote]

WHO did SS/Layla jail on N1??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I wish someone smarter than me would've brought this up earlier. I just read his first few posts and I have no clue. Obviously he jailed scum, but I have absolutely no leads. He votes Anen in his 3rd or 4th post which tells me he probably randomly jailed someone and never thought to breadcrumb it even after implosion claimed.

[RedCoyote]

and i'm not as convinced on os's slot after his posting. And it isn't just the "oh the replacement did things" bump.

Bullshit. Yes, it is. Otherwise you would articulate it.

FFFFF Nacho might be town because he's the only one who sees past this nonsense. Nacho, baby, are we the only two townies in this game?

[RedCoyote]

I brought that up earlier rc.

AND what's your conclusion?

[RedCoyote]

Why did he obviously jail scum?

Because shot didn't go through.

[RedCoyote]

Why did he obviously jail scum?

Because shot didn't go through.

Btw, I know earlier I said Gnomeo could've been a scumshot. That was before implosion claimed. I was just saying it wasn't an unbelievable scumshot like Tammy and notscience were claiming it was. When implosion claimed, I no longer thought it was a scumshot. It's possible, but unlikely that they both shot Gnomeo.

[RedCoyote]

That, too.

[RedCoyote]

I hate being town. Jesus, who likes this? Why do I even play this game?

[RedCoyote]

implosion, bro, I think you are town, fyi.

I dunno. Too many emotions going through me right now. Also a little smashed. I'll let you have a couple of days to consider it. You know I would lynch pie over ns though. So, like, if you are afraid of voting Oversoul for some weird reason, that's where my vote would be in theory.

I'm going to be on vacation for a couple of days starting tomorrow, fyi x2. Since we have 10+ days, it doesn't really matter. We can drag this out if you guys want. I don't get why notscience doesn't join me though honestly. I get why implosion doesn't want to kind of. notscience not joining me is weird and the first thing that is starting to give me niggling little doubts about my super townread on him. Hmmmm. Like a "trying to bite off more than he can chew" thing. I'll think about it.

[RedCoyote]

I hate being town. Jesus, who likes this? Why do I even play this game?

i got this and my other town pm for the two games that i joined (the other now being completed) and i was super pumped
whoo boy was past me silly
i guess i am kind of enjoying this but fuck.

I don't know how you aren't enjoying this seeing as you hold someone's life in your hands. That sounds exhilarating.

By everyone, RC, I also meant scum. It was another reason why I thought Implosion was scum. No way that scum targetted Gnomeo. I think Layla protected someone.

Oversoul, omg, why are you even talking to me. We're mortal enemies now, you and I.

[RedCoyote]

(only in this game, obv)

[RedCoyote]

Not just her, my anime friend, but that you won't concede to working with me after all the love I gave you. I'm self-centered in Mafia and think everyone should be thinking about me at all times.

Hmmm...

Where's TAMMY?

[RedCoyote]

You are so lucky you have a friend in Tammy. SO lucky. You realize how LUCKY you are that she is misreading you?

[RedCoyote]

Hmmmm...

Nacho's talking about ffrey has me wanting to flip flop my Nacho/ffrey reads. I especially didn't like ffrey's "I'm trying something different" thing. I don't claim to know ffrey very well, but that gives me chills. Nacho's angle that ffrey was kind of "testing the waters" and priming herself for a pivot more or less makes a whole lot of sense. Damn, this is going to be a tough call.

In any event, as Wicked/Nacho have been saying, Oversoul can't buy a town post. The poor guy is trying every trick in the book. That slot is not salvageable. Whichever person between pie/notscience is the first to get with the program will be interesting to see.

[RedCoyote]

ffrey has only gotten worse for me over time. She seemingly started off very strong, but her indecisiveness and almost, like, lack of energy lately is souring me on her a bit. Her Nacho vote seemed too shady, and when Nacho/you called her out, she seemed to shirk, backtrack and claim she was just trying something different. I just don't really get what her angle is. Then her whole, "I don't want to pressure people that just replaced in out of principle" stance was weird. Way too forced sounding. Either you think the slot is scummy or you don't. She should have the courage to fall one way or the other. If she disagrees with me, Nacho or anyone else about Oversoul, then she should say that.

Nacho has me on the fence. He had me on the fence last game, too, when he replaced in and ended up flipping town. I strongly disliked his slot in that game prior to him replacing though. I mean, you were there, you remember how flaky panda was. I guess I'm rambling and that's neither here nor there, but the short answer is I could see that scumteam, yes. One day at a time though. Oversoul's got to go.

[RedCoyote]

If you are town you're acting absurdly anti-town right now

it's called a massclaim for a reason

there's this thing called setup speculation

and pie was trying to do it

and i've been trying to do it

and you're refusing to allow the town to do it

This screams town.

Oversoul screams scum.

ffrey not backing up implosion here is no bueno. Oversoul doesn't get to not claim, especially if he's making wild (and wrong at least in my case, incidentally) allegations that the entire scumteam in the subset of {myself; Nacho; Wicked; implosion}. I know I'm town, and I have had nothing but good vibes from Wicked all game except for a brief spat when he voted me early on D2. implosion will show his hand soon enough.

Another thing, I guess Oversoul is back to scumreading me again after his so-called epiphany a couple of pages ago. How fickle.

[RedCoyote]

I get Tammy wanting to put the brakes on because she's not around, but I totally don't get where ffrey is coming from. Why is she being so weak? And I don't even want her to just agree with us. That's not the point. I want her to take a stand one way or another. I don't think Oversoul gets to do this as town. That's my opinion. ffrey can agree or disagree with that, but she should be pressed to do it.

"Don't think I won't hammer" is so weak. So weak. It doesn't even sound threatening. Maybe I'm confirmation biasing it too much, but man does she look like an Oversoul partner.

[RedCoyote]

Wicked, while your here, what do you think of 2291? Am I being too harsh?

You're trying to manipulate fferylt into hammering me, aren't you RC?

Believe it or not I'm trying to figure out her alignment. That's something us townies have to do.

[RedCoyote]

ffrey not backing up implosion here is no bueno.

What?

Don't give me that. You're smarter than I am. You know what I am referring to. That post is very clear.

[RedCoyote]

You are not backing up the Oversoul wagon. What implosion said was pitch perfect. Oversoul is playing very anti-town by dragging his claim out like this after everyone has already mass claimed for the purposes of the town piecing together the setup. You should either go on record as agreeing with that sentiment and actually threatening to hammer Oversoul if he doesn't produce (now that opportunity has passed, however, so you can't go back in time and get those town points back ... and your weak "don't assume I won't hammer" which sounded in my mind like a little mouse shaking in her boots OR like a scum partner throwing up a token "threat" to look good), or you should go on record saying that you think this wagon is not good and you definitely do not want to hammer Oversoul right now. Instead you waffled and let the opportunity slip by while you were voting for... no one. Very, very weak move, ffrey.

[RedCoyote]

Tammy is town...

[RedCoyote]

And it's not even about the hammer, ffrey. It's about you putting Oversoul in his place (or not). You should've forced him to claim. I don't think I'm blowing this out of proportion. I think this was very telling about your intentions.

[RedCoyote]

Tammy is town...

So, that makes her input worthless?

No, but I don't need to read her. I need to read you, dear.

[RedCoyote]

Anyway, I have to go, sorry.

V/LA until Friday

.

[RedCoyote]

You can act all cool and dispassionate, ffrey, but I don't think you are appreciating where I am coming from in terms of scumhunting here.

When you come back I want to know why you were pushng me to hammer when Tammy had JUST ASKED FOR A FEW HOURS.

You made the "threat" before Tammy posted, so this is misleading. Really misleading.

Really got to go now.

[RedCoyote]

One other thing, I love how you are parroting Oversoul saying that I am pushing you to hammer. I'm not. I distinctly said I wanted you to take a stand. Maybe you interpret that as hammering, but that's not the only way to take a stand.

[RedCoyote]

>mfw I check the thread again for the first time in 2 days and the first thing I see is that notscience and pie are on the same wagon together

[RedCoyote]

Tammy, are you around?

[RedCoyote]

Let's strike a deal here, pie.

If I vote Nacho today, if Nacho gets lynched with my help, will you commit to lynching Oversoul with me tomorrow?

[RedCoyote]

Vote: RedCoyote

This is where I'd rather go.

For the record, the initial vote is based on feeling and no reason beyond that. I am reading through him now and reasons are soon to come if I still feel good about it, but reasons that I come up with are not reasons I had in mind when I made the vote.

this was Nacho's initial RC vote. the progression here felt off and forced - as if he wanted to push RC for strategic reasons - and, in hindsight, it looks extremely dissimilar to anything I've seen him do as town before.

after that, he puts RC as town due to miller claim, which is reasonable, but I still think the random read flop on Vinkah for no reason until after Oversoul came into the game is a huge issue.

It's a strange scum tactic to push hard for a lynch at the beginning of the day? Why?

Yeah, I kept modifying that line as I was typing it. It felt like something I really wanted to comment on and that felt significant that I couldn't put my finger on. Idk, maybe notable is just the right word. Honestly I think as I was writing out that part of the post I sort of half-realized that no, that would actually be an incredibly likely ploy for scum-RC to pull, and that didn't really fit in in my head. But it got left in there.

As in claiming PR first?
Why is that?

How do you think the claim fits in with the overall setup?

In general making such a big deal about it. The claiming "not a vt" thing I think just draws more attention to RC if he's scum and I don't think he would want that kind of attention. Especially if we lynch someone else without forcing him to claim - that just makes it awkward that he didn't die, which would be additionally difficult for him to explain. It would just be putting extra obstacles in his way as scum in a way that doesn't make much sense.

Claiming non specific PR means that there's the chance that he can draw a lynch away from himself without risk of counterclaim.

He would very easily be able to explain himself still being alive by scum being afraid of protection.

/whistle

FYI, I claimed not VT in 1564 and Nacho did not unvote me. I full claimed shortly thereafter and had an additional, like, 30 pages of activity up to this point...

In addition, my "not VT" claim was not made during a mass claim. That's that you and ffrey seemingly can't understand. I go for a couple of days and come back, and, you know, you're using it to score points on Nacho here, which is really unsettling to me. Can you see how I would get turned off by this? The context is entirely different, and you're playing fast and loose with the truth to make it seem like the situations were exactly the same.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: That's

what

[RedCoyote]

I don't know. I don't know.

I trust Wicked and I think I trust implosion at this point. And Tammy. Those are the only three people I would follow at this point.

[RedCoyote]

And I just saw Nacho claimed backup. Thanks for telling me, guys!

[RedCoyote]

RC's push essentially amounts to Oversoul lying being "anti-town" without considering what the motivation for it actually is (correct me if I'm wrong on this because that's all I've fucking seen so far).

That's actually not what it amounts to, but if it does, then your case essentially amounts to Nacho's lying being "anti-town" without considering the motiviation for it actually is.

I guess you, like, forgot that I had a beef with Vinkah throughout D2 for several different reasons. Before Oversoul was even in the game at all. You haven't seen a whole hell of a lot that doesn't fit into your perfect little narrative, pie.

I just don't get how you and ffrey were so freaking on the money with me on D1 and now both of you are in crazytown.

[RedCoyote]

As far as a backup goes, the mod has precedence of having backups in BEES!!!, but he didn't have any in the original Swagtown or in EPIC XD. If the mod has other games then I don't know because he won't update his wiki like a good scummer should.

I have no problem with Nacho not claiming backup. I don't like to conform when it comes to role claims myself. I like trying different things. That said, it doesn't make him more likely to be town, and it is very convenient for him to claim this now on D3 (less time left to give him to prove it), with the role cop still alive, and after a mass claim.

I'm going to go find Nacho's first post immediately after Tammy claimed. That may tell me what I want to know.

[RedCoyote]

I also kind of agree with ffrey at the outset that JK + Rolecop + Backup Rolecop + Vig doesn't seem right. Then again, all of these roles have a high potential for being a negative utility to the town anyway.

[RedCoyote]

Ffery/Tammy are almost certainly town. RC-town makes a lot of sense setup-wise. If implosion is also town, that means that there is only one town in notscience/Vinkah/Pieguyn/Wicked, which feels weird.

Most immediate reaction after Tammy's claim (I forgot he wasn't around at all at that wild end of D2 thing that was more or less triggered by Tammy's claim). I guess it's fine. I was hoping it would kind of stick out to me more. Were there any breadcrumbs?

[RedCoyote]

Though why would he put ffrey up there with Tammy??????????????

[RedCoyote]

Let's strike a deal here, pie.

If I vote Nacho today, if Nacho gets lynched with my help, will you commit to lynching Oversoul with me tomorrow?

*if* Nacho flips town, I will reevaluate the game and potentially be open to an Oversoul lynch as a result of that, but I'm not just going to go "herpaderp I'm lynching player X".

Obviously no deal then. How unsure of yourself you must be to even think I'd accept any conditional addendum. I'm exceedingly confident Oversoul will flip scum. So much so that I'd even allow Nacho to go first, potentially making us look like fools in the process, in order to secure his lynch. Unlike Oversoul, I have zero confidence Nacho will flip scum. I don't know what he'll flip. The only thing that bodes well for him is that he sees Oversoul as scummy as I do.

---

Why did you leave your role out? because it's passive?

I should question the presence of my own role...? I know it's real because the mod told me it was.

I know that's not what you meant, but that's the real answer to your question.

If you want me to give you something more in line with what I think you're asking, I think you need only look to Tammy. If you believe Tammy, then you should believe me. But why, you may ask. It's because it fits in line with setup speculation given the moderator.

[RedCoyote]

Now, where's my boy notscience? Perhaps he's ready to get serious. I refuse to let any player be lynched before Oversoul. Y'all should've done it while I was gone. I'm going to be loud, annoying and in everyone's collective faces for the rest of this day phase until/unless Oversoul is lynched.

[RedCoyote]

the entire point is *why* Oversoul would lie about this. what benefit is there for scum-him to half-assedly retract the claim instead of following through with it? I can't think of any, whereas it makes at least some sense that he would as town. I can follow what his thought process behind it was, and although I think attempting to draw a NK is a dumb strategy, I think it makes a fair amount of sense that he'd come in here and thought he could break the game by doing something ridiculous, and I think it makes sense he thought he'd get recognized as town for it.

Don't give me that, babe. This is WIFOM 101 here. I could throw that question right back at you, first off. We're just going to play interpretation tit-for-tat here.

The scum benefit is to sucker people like you into saying, "oh, that's too scummy to be scum". Too easy. And you and ffrey and Tammy all let him give you a wink and a smile and you're on to someone else.

What benefit is there for Nacho to withhold a claim that could be used to bolster his town cred? There's a lot of town benefit in doing that (he rolls the dice that he doesn't get pressure, Tammy dies, he gets to start catching some reports). As scum, it only serves to put a target on his back (see: Wicked's reaction). I'm not saying this because I think Nacho is necessarily town, but I could see his rationale a hell of a lot better (PR faking as VT) than I could for Oversoul (VT faking as not VT).

what push did you make on Vinkah D2? I'm looking through your ISO again and I see the last part of 787, 893 and 1410 and that's it. in terms of reasoning, this is a lot less of a push than what you did at the start of today. there is a huge difference between poking at someone occasionally throughout the game day without much direct engagement or certainty behind it and hard pushing a read.

I was TRYING to get people to pay attention to Vinkah. Vinkah constantly ignored me. Everyone else was busy with their own pet projects (remember how many 1-vote wagons there were?) I said numerous times that I wanted more attention paid to Vinkah. Vinkah was actively lurking, valid or not, throughout the entire day. No one cared. Eventually you get to a point where you have to give up and move elsewhere. I know you want me to do it again, but I refuse, pie. I refuse to let you take over another day.

[RedCoyote]

I should question the presence of my own role...? I know it's real because the mod told me it was.

I know that's not what you meant, but that's the real answer to your question.

If you want me to give you something more in line with what I think you're asking, I think you need only look to Tammy. If you believe Tammy, then you should believe me. But why, you may ask. It's because it fits in line with setup speculation given the moderator.

Your role being part of the setup is relevant to the likelihood of the other roles being present though?

The only way I can see hypothetical scum-you deciding at the start of the game that a miller fake claim was the way to go was if the scum team has a godfather.

I don't know what you're getting at and/or if you want me to respond to this. I read your first question three times and I still don't understand what you are asking. It's a simple point, mine is. A role cop, especially if there's a backup, is easily the star of this setup. The moderator likely based the setup around a role cop and potential pitfalls it may encounter vis-a-vis other roles (miller, probably godfather).

Anyway, I said this WIFOM before and I will say it again, I wouldn't have fakeclaimed miller as scum because I just did that less than I year ago. I actually have done it twice in the past two (ish) years. I'm not interested in doing it again for the time being.

[RedCoyote]

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

[RedCoyote]

Pie didn't take over day 2.

you, in that context = not pie but moreso the dumb town collective

Honestly I said that to ruffle her feathers a bit, lmao, but you know... I'm mean like that.

Also, ffrey, can you answer 2553? I'd like to see what you think about that. Perhaps with more than just "he saw me as town". Why on the same level as Tammy in light of her claim? Do you think Nacho would've snuck in something more... eh... critical for lack of a better word?

[RedCoyote]

Critical as in important, not as in critical like criticizing.

[RedCoyote]

Not if you're planning to run off and join the Nacho wagon I won't.

[RedCoyote]

And I can't stress this enough how this isn't about me defending Nacho. I can so totally see pie trying to spin it in that way. I'm really not. It 100% has to do with my belief that Oversoul is scum and that he's successfully been able to fool people because of "oh I'm a replacement look at how town I replaced in". That is such a damned easy trick and I have done it as scum many times. That's scum on easy mode. No one wants to lynch the guy who just replaced in if he gives :effort: on some deep down subconscious level. Probably because you'd hate it if it were done to you in the same position.

Yeah, it's not fair Oversoul replaced into a scum slot that was supposed to be lynched today, but he did.

To what degree is your conviction on Oversoul a result of Vinkah's play and to what degree has it been strengthened by Oversoul's play?

That claim was so ridiculous. So bad. By no means do I get any townread from it, and don't let pie fool you with the "scum wouldn't do that so it must be town" bs either. That's WIFOM at its nastiest. Someone is town or they aren't. They help the town or they don't. Oversoul didn't help the town, he helped himself.

Let's just say 50/50. The slot is rotten to the core.

[RedCoyote]

And it's relevant to his flipped read on me, which I don't want to discuss just yet.

Fair enough.

RC why do you feel the oversoul wagon is the better wagon at this point?

I mean, this begs a 20 page answer, and the passion I have for it could literally have me writing 20 pages about it. I don't want to do that though. I don't think that's the most effective way in sell you on the wagon, do you? Let me put it this way, see if this gets you to scratch your chin a bit, I'm so confident Oversoul is the better wagon that it has me seeing red on you, ffrey. Even after I have townread you many times earlier in this game. You get what I mean by that? Like, when you let him get away with that non-VT claim, it sent me on a warpath against you, rightly or wrongly. I'm not saying that to try and bring up that again because I think that conversation has served it's purpose, but to present it to you from the perspective of that's how confident I am in this read.

From a purely practical standpoint, it's better to lynch a VT over a claimed PR.

From a pure WIFOM standpoint, scum is more likely to softfake a PR to try and stay alive than town is.

From a pure activity standpoint, both Vinkah and Oversoul have both effectively used active lurking to their consummate advantage. Doubly so in Vinkah's case as he criticized me for daring to even bring that up.

From a pure anti-town standpoint, a single VT should not stonewall a good faith mass claim as the single hold out.

From a pure strength-of-the-wagon standpoint, I would take myself-Wicked-implosion over pie-ns (though Wicked had flipped, so this argument is necessarily less strong).

Should I go on?

[RedCoyote]

Not what I would've done, sure, but I also wouldn't have done what Oversoul did.

[RedCoyote]

You know, we could argue with each other up and down about "why would town Nacho do this?" "a backup sounds like a questionable role" "let's put implosion back on the table" "I only want to lynch claimed PRs" etc etc...

...

...

...

Can someone explain to me how Oversoul gets away with lurking right now as town? Which, for the record, is completely UNLIKE how he acted when he was actually being pressured as the likely lynch. Which, for the record, is exactly what Vinkah did to get away from pressure yesterday.

Can someone DEFEND this role slot right now? This very second? The way it's lurking to get away from pressure? Oversoul sure as hell won't do it. pie? ns? ffrey? Wicked? Tammy? Anyone................?

[RedCoyote]

Last three posts:

(also my theory was that oversoul was going to claim to be a second miller, in which case i probably would have unvoted to think about it)

yep
a vt who wanted to draw out the rolecop on them because a rolecop on a vt totally gives us useful information
makes sense.

Then fucking shoot me. I'm a bad lynch objectively.

Over three days ago

I'll answer things. But tonight. Very busy.

Yesterday afternoon

Something from me tonight

Yesterday afternoon

[RedCoyote]

ffrey, I'm asking you to vote Oversoul. No more tying yourself to Tammy's apron strings. No more sitting in the not voting row. No more "don't think I won't hammer". You must stand on your own and place a vote. If we lynch Nacho today and he flips town, I will lose it, babe. I will totally lose it. I just don't know what else to say. I know this is tunnelling like crazy, but I just don't know what else to say.

[RedCoyote]

I don't have anything to contribute at this time. It's clear that neither Oversoul nor Nacho will happen until Tammy gets back. Oversoul is in full blown hiding under the desk mode here. ffrey doesn't have the guts to stand up for her convictions (whatever these may be, she is so adept at hiding her actual intentions here that it's scary ... with the exception of her latest "getting scummy vibes from implosion" which is completely unhelpful in our current situation). notscience is still presumably siding with pie (remember when he was convinced she was scum...?) I doubt Tammy will bring anything new to the thread that we haven't already heard before.

*goes back to watching the countdown timer tick down while we wait for Tammy*

It's amazing how much creditability ffrey has lost with me over the course of this day. She was literally, like, my number 2 or 3 townie at the start of today. Unless Nacho flips scum (or Oversoul flips town), she is totally on my lynch list at this point. She is running a clinic on how to act townie in a technicial sense, but completely come across as scummy on a gut, intuitive level, if that makes sense.

[RedCoyote]

Like, to expand on that a bit, ffrey is so freaking dispassionate this game. I think I've said this before. I know she'll come back with, "I'm waiting for Tammy." That's what's proper. That's what's expected. That's what a good townie should do. God forbid she show a little emotion, a little individuality. Something that's raw and unfiltered. She's like the Jeb Bush of this game. So boring and sterile and sanitized.

P.Edit: this was written before I saw 2702, so, yeah, I'd say I nailed it.

[RedCoyote]

109 freaking pages, babe. How much more should we tread over the same ground? You can't lynch either Nacho or Oversoul (or anyone else) alone at this point. So you continually hiding behind Tammy tells me more than you realize.

[RedCoyote]

I doubt Tammy will bring anything new to the thread that we haven't already heard before.

I know who's not getting a Christmas card this year!

There's just nothing left to say, imo. Now Nacho is hiding under the desk.

Actually, there is one question I have. implosion, have you told us who you are shooting tonight?

[RedCoyote]

It's almost like the day is just beginning

[RedCoyote]

I think Rolecop and Jailkeeper are our center roles, they make or break it.

I think 1 of the other 3 would make sense.

Okay.

So directed to all setup balance speculation and setup balance thoughts, I believe there are only two real takeaways.

1) There is not a Serial Killer in this game. Both Tammy and I could pick up on the SK whether he had investigative immunity or not (since this is a normal game), and putting two people who can investigate and find solo scum is absolutely brutal and cruel and unusual, even for Empire. This isn't even getting into interactions with Jailkeeper (and I don't know if SKs are even allowed to have strongmans or not), so, if implosion gets a shot off, he is 100% confirmed town of the no asking questions and no going back variety.

2) Five power roles in the game seems excessive. I'm reading Tammy/RC town to a level on individual play to the point where I'm happy saying that neither of those two are scum, which means that implosion is almost certainly scum. It would be hard for an all-town PR combination to actually work thanks to the dynamic multiple rolecops actually have with a scumteam (the more powerful a scumteam, the more powerful town rolecops become); the only only way that I can even sort of see something like that actually working is a roleblocker/ascetic scumteam, which I'm not even sure is normal, but even in that worst case scenario, we should still be able to recover with a scum lynch today.

I think the idea of lynching in the claimed PRs is stupid when the only valid suspicions within them are me/implosion and we have a very magical ability to definitively sort ourselves out during the night; the only way that it actually makes sense is if you think we are scum together, which is not something I've seen peddled around a whole bunch but feel free to correct me if I just haven't been paying attention.

Great points, both of these. Maybe this is what ffrey was trying to say except she looked all scummy and unsure of herself when she said it (and maybe because she's not voting Oversoul, lol). I've never really worried about implosion post-mid-D2. For the life of me, I can't understand why he keeps getting brought back up into the equation. Anyway, yes, Nacho is right. implosion makes a lot of sense as plain jane scum on the back of point 2 (but he's easily able to prove this completely wrong tonight of course).

[RedCoyote]

We're not voting ffrey, Tam.

[RedCoyote]

I felt like your emotional claim was not warranted/it felt fake.

I didn't get that at all.

[RedCoyote]

It'd be nice if instead of arguing over the same points over and over we actually went forward with a lynch.

pie, I really, really don't get how you get a scumread of me unless you think Tammy is scum, too. How do you get around setup spec? How do you get around my breadcrumb? How do you get around the accurate things you said about me earlier in this game? Doesn't make much sense to me. If I had claimed after Tammy, that would be one thing... and I'm bussing Oversoul? Really? No one so much as looked at Vinkah since the very beginning of D1. I could've easily stayed the course I was going on D2 and continued after notscience. I single-handedly turned the discussion on Vinkah, and I regret nothing. I'll live or die, win or lose on the back of that read.

And, yes, I'm not posting as much because the only questions I have are, "Why isn't Oversoul lynched yet?" "What's taking us so long to lynch Oversoul?" "When are we going to lynch Oversoul?" "Has Oversoul flipped yet?"

[RedCoyote]

No, you're detaching because it's objectively becoming boring. Oversoul has been the leading wagon all D3. notscience and Nacho have been the only alternatives all of D3. There has been zero deviation from that for the past 11 days. Unlike some games where wagons fluctuate, we've been kind of stuck in limbo.

If I didn't have my strong conviction for scum in Oversoul, I'd have probably have allowed myself to drift onto Nacho, which is definitely what pie and Oversoul wanted me to do. I see them as two peas in a pod.

[RedCoyote]

That pie would suggest I am bussing Oversoul... goodness, she must really see the walls crumbling around her, huh?

[RedCoyote]

I don't know that either.

Honestly, I've been giving her a hard time all day because, one, I thought her initial D3 notscience read was the complete opposite of mine, and two, her moving to join a Nacho wagon with notscience of all people when their respective wagons on each other weren't picking up was strange and disingenuous. Despite all that, I still had the scumteam in the flux of {implosion, Oversoul, ffrey, Nacho, pie} all day with only Oversoul for sure. Now her calling me out and suggesting that her scumteam is me, Oversoul, Nacho/Wicked? Nah, I don't buy that. That's a bridge too far.

Long ago in this game, pie stuck her neck out for me intuitively. This was when it wasn't cool to call me town. To have her go from that to where she is now when I've only grown considerably more townie from the POV of every player (I'm not exaggerating, every living player here, even pie, has called me town at one point or another... presumably, at this moment, everyone still thinks this except for pie now and possibly Oversoul) and I've claimed a role that makes a lot of sense with Tammy's role? It doesn't make sense. That's the opposite direction. That's counterintuitive.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, scratch that last paragraph. I'm conflating her with ffrey.

I still don't like that comment, but maybe it's not quite as inexplicable as my kneejerk reaction would have me believe.

[RedCoyote]

Good for them. I know we all want to hold hands and say we all know everybody's meta so well that there's no way we're wrong and everyone's town, but some of the players here are scum, fyi.

[RedCoyote]

I'm starting to get a what have you done for me lately feeling from notscience. I can't help it. He has done absolutely nothing for us today.

You see, that's the problem with prolonging the day. I have these strong townreads and then I forget why because it's been so long since anything has happened. Maybe it's just me. Everyone in this game is starting to piss me off except for Nacho.

[RedCoyote]

To put it another way, I have a townread on you, right? But since you've been useless all day, doubt is seeping in. I'm thinking, "Yeah, I have a townread, but what has he done lately that has deserved that townread?" Make sense?

[RedCoyote]

Damnit, Nacho. I hope you know you've soiled me for Mafia for the rest of my life. #kiddingnotkidding

The worst part is that I told myself he was scum and that I shouldn't get attached to him. I told myself that several times. I told myself, "Nacho is probably scum, do not trust him... but you must get Oversoul lynched... this town needs you and they're going to wimp out... you must push this so at least you can take some satisfaction in doing one helpful thing this game".

Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know who the scum is. I really don't. My heart aches. I have no ability to scumhunt. It feels like it's been years since I've had a successful inkling that wasn't derived from a cop report or someone else's bright idea.

I would pick ffrey, but my confidence is so completely shot that I'm numb. Frankly, I'd just as soon proxy my vote to notscience than cause any more ruckus.

[RedCoyote]

As for Oversoul, well, there's a special place in Hell for... people... that still hammer themselves as town in the year 2015.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: Mafia for me

[RedCoyote]

Let me also say that I am a miller. If my breadcrumb doesn't prove that, then Tammy's flip ought to. I implore y'all not to overthink this and act as though this is some nefarious plot that I am behind.

Let me WIFOM it this way, ffrey/pie (you two know me best... how y'all know so much about me, I do not know), I would not let Nacho have made such a fool of me vis-a-vis Oversoul if I was scum. I would've put my foot down during our backroom discussions and wouldn't have had any of that. I can be strung along as town, that much I will readily admit to, but I cannot be strung along as scum... and I won't be made to look like it either. I want to look slick, not foolish. I want to look back on a game and say, "ah... I got you there, didn't I? " The secret to reading me, which you two both prophetically told everyone before the situation ever came up, is that I don't want to look bad.

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling on. Um, my immediate reaction is either implosion + ffrey or Wicked or ffrey + Wicked. Um, either way that kind of tells you where my mind is vote-wise. I do wish desperately that Tammy was here so that I could now squeeze tight to her and let her take charge.

[RedCoyote]

I'm officially fine with a Wicked lynch. I have zero faith in my ability to townread this game.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: No Lynch

[RedCoyote]

I really don't want to play this game anymore. I can't even look at it without feeling distraught. What are we doing, ns?

[RedCoyote]

I'm officially fine with a Wicked lynch.

Why? Please tell me it's not because of pie's last post.

But this is a surprising change considering there are still two living players outside yesterday's town bloc...

I put all my eggs in that Oversoul basket. I thought I made that clear...

[RedCoyote]

Sigh...

Nevermind. Just forget it. I'm done.

[RedCoyote]

RC, no response to 2956?

pie, honestly, I don't have it in me. I'm coming from such a position of weakness here given my ties to Nacho and my position on Oversoul.

Bottom line, if Tammy's role and my roleclaim don't persuade you, then there's nothing I will be able to point to in my post history that will. I've been doing the scumteam's bidding all game, so there's nothing in my record this game that I can point back to and say, "remember when I did this?" The perfect Nacho partner in this group is me. I worked very hard to lynch Oversoul yesterday and, in effect, spare Nacho, didn't I?

Anyway, I'm not so gloomy today as I was yesterday. Y'all have a tough decision in front of you though, lol. I'm glad I don't have to make it, because I probably would lynch me.

[RedCoyote]

Tammy unless you want more time, I plan to vote oversoul in about 10-12 hours.

I'm trying to make sense of why nacho fake claimed backup rolecop.

Oversoul was his counterwagon.

The best he could hope for was to survive the day and get killed by implosion once he fake claimed, Without that claim he might have survived day 3 and night 3.

When he fake claimed he was at L-3. with just notsci and pieguy voting him.

Why did he decide to fake claim?

I think it had something to do with Implosion having a kill.

Does that imply 3 scum or two in the setup?

I don't see the connection. I don't see how the fake claim is more of a hindrance than not vis-a-vis surviving N3. Even if it is, I don't see how this helps us. What does implosion think?

[RedCoyote]

Oh, I think I get what you are saying. You're saying Nacho was in effect extending an olive branch to implosion with the hopes that he would be SK and not shoot him on account of his fakeclaim, yes?

[RedCoyote]

Therefore you're more inclined to believe implosion is Vig, right?

[RedCoyote]

If he's vig, then Nacho wanted his 2nd kill used up, even if it meant using the kill up on him.

As opposed to us lynching Nacho D4 and leaving a Vig alive with one still in the chamber... yeah, I totally see where you're going ffrey. That's good thinking. I hadn't put that together.

For what it's worth, you've pretty much just convinced me right there that implosion is town.

UNVOTE: No Lynch; VOTE: Wicked

[RedCoyote]

Damnit, ffrey. I'm sorry. I feel like I really let this town down. I have no idea how to scumhunt anymore.

[RedCoyote]

ffrey, really? I replaced in on D2 and was shot on N2. I wasn't even around long enough to see a flip. Further, I was ultimately wrong with two of my three main scumreads in that game.

Other than my alignment, there's pretty much no similarities between those games.

[RedCoyote]

To clarify because I kind of worded that poorly, there's pretty much no similarities between this game and Eclipse.

[RedCoyote]

Did I miss somethng?

Well, I went back and forth on Juls, but ultimately I moved her back to a townread. Had I gotten further in the game, I may have went back, but I was 1 for 3 in what I would consider my "final" three scumpicks in the game. Though now that you have me looking back, Sotty had a cop that game which would've probably had Juls back on my scumlist... Anyway, we're splitting hairs.

ffrey, you really want me to find comparable meta to this one? I haven't been speaking much to this subject because it's totally self-serving for me to chime in, imo, but when you're seriously bringing up Eclipse Mafia as a good comparison, I'm skeptical of your decisions. All joking aside about how you can read me better than I can myself (regardless of what happens this game, I remain impressed with the accurate nature of some of the things you said about me earlier this game), I do have to live with myself. Thus, I know a thing or two about how I act in certain situations. Eclipse Mafia in no way, shape or form is indicative of my mindset here. We're talking polar opposites because that was me at peak confidence. Let me bring up three town games which are more better indicators of where my mind is at:

Subject: ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

...Oh, wait, it wasn't podium. It was Kcda. D:

Ah, screw it. I made too many mistakes here. I don't really know what's going on anyways.

Vote: implosion

The best I can figure is that the ATHF are the actual bad guys. Well, whatever. You guys can lynch me if you want.

Not quite the same situation (this had to do with me misreading my PR results), but the effect is the same. As town, if I think I'm not really helping the town's chances, I turn a bit morose. I dislike being unhelpful. In this situation, I had fumbled my role results twice and didn't think it was reasonable to expect the rest of the town to still see me as genuine. Similar to this game, I see myself making one bad move (hammering town), after another (pushing Vinkah to the point where he replaces out), after another (being unable to draw a NK), after another (having to claim), after another (pursuing townOversoul), after another (effectively aiding Nacho's intent to draw a shot from implosion) after another (being unable to articulate how clear it is in my mind that Tammy's role should necessarily give you, if not total 100% comfort that my role claim is genuine, at least a strong sense of doubt in the possibility that I'm scum ... and this isn't speaking to you necessarily, ffrey, moreso to pie/ns). So the culmination of all those things gives me pains in my stomach that are only being prolonged as I feel like I see the writing on the wall going into D4.

---

Subject: DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

I see your point, inHim. My intention is not to derail the AV wagon but to prop up the dana wagon.

Mmm, this is a bit frustrating now because I see where y'all are coming from. I wasn't intending to pull any sort of trick. I, uh, I think I'm being a little too analytical and distant for my own good here. I think I'll just stop talking for a while.

Combing through my memory banks, this is probably the closest I can get to the genuine, "crap, I wish I had done something things different" that I am having in this game. Here is a situation where I was lynched on D1 after actually being seen as relatively townie most of the day. My top scumread at the time was the leading wagon and I was riding high. Late into the day, I suggested that another wagon should also get some attention so that the town may benefit further down the line from an atmosphere where there were two competing wagons, but I phrased it poorly and was pounced on by a number of players. As I tried to clarify my comments, I seemed to be digging myself into a deeper hole which led to the quoted post. I thought the best thing I could do when I saw myself in real danger of being lynched was to try and take a step back and tell everyone that I would remove myself from the conversation. I think it's easy to draw a line between what I am doing in the quoted post with what I am doing in this game.

---

Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

I'm sorry. I want to really make a good post, but I just don't really disagree with Ythill. I want to come in an make some super convincing post, but I'm just no match for those intellecutal muscles of his. Honestly I'm not even trying to butter him up, these are just really solid posts. hito, too, has got a good flow going. I don't see mallow giving us any alternatives to look at, and I don't really disagree with his wagon.

Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

Ugh, I had to go re-read my PM. Ythill had me convinced I was scum.

Seriously though, I really feel bad. Ythill is putting more effort into this game than I've ever seen anyone do in a game of mafia. I simply don't have that level of dedication.

Now, like the above scenario where I said that was probably the closest match to my own personal mood, this is probably closest to "ffrey, I'm sorry. I feel like I let this town down." I replaced into this game very late, but Ythill replaced in even later. From the start I never really was able to get a good feel for the game, and, not long after replacing in, two of my big scumreads flipped town. That took a blow to my self-esteem and scumhunting ability. So much so that I effectively conceded that Ythill's reads were stronger and better than anything I could come up with. I was so in the tank for Ythill that I made that second post I quoted. Again, highly emotional. The reason for these quotes were due to the fact that I was not confident in my scumhunting abilities (and, in fact, the only reason we won that game was due to heavy scum lurking) and that I basically allowed myself to take a completely passive role for the remainder of the game until lylo.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

much

better indicators

[RedCoyote]

Man, reading back over DEFCON 3.0... talk about a blunder, lol. I forgot how much of a silly move that was. That is a pretty good read. The other two, eh, not so much.

[RedCoyote]

3042? I addressed it. See the very top paragraph of 3044.

[RedCoyote]

If there's one silver lining in this game, it's letting me go back and laugh at some dumb stuff I did in old games. implosion, do you remember that ATHF game? That was such a hot mess.

ffrey, if I approach the game from the way that pie wants me to, I'm sunk. That's it. I haven't been playing town this game, you know? I don't think that's up for debate. I can't go back and spin it and say, "oh, that time I hammered Ane... that was good town work". I don't think that approach will help me and I don't think it will help me achieve my win condition. Let's leave aside the fact that it's silly to lynch me today regardless when 5/6 of us agree Wicked is scum. I see my play as to make a more emotional case for myself. To point to the setup rather than the past. If I can get implosion, you and the third townie to see me as town on that basis, I think that's the best path to victory.

Look at 3033 and 2956. pie doesn't want me to try and sell myself as town... she wants me to sell her on someone else as scum. One may think there's no difference between that, but there is. Is any of this making sense, ffrey? It's not about me "giving up". There's an element of that, but that's a simplistic way of looking at it that I think --hope-- you can see beyond.

Everything we do in this game is an argument.

[RedCoyote]

3042? I addressed it. See the very top paragraph of 3044.

My question is really more one of do you feel like I've misinterpreted or misread the games I've commented on? Even without finding close matches to this game on my own, I'd like to know if I'm at all right about what I've seen as motivations in your town game.

You'll need to be more specific if you want an answer that's more specific, but, for the most part, regardless of alignment, I do not want to be seen as though I'm not trying. Real emotions alter that principle though. That's what being a human being is. So, uh, I don't know how to answer this without coming across as cliche. You're right that about what kind of behavior I generally dislike, but I have biases and off days and real life and etc etc etc. I know I don't always conform to my own standards. This speaks a lot to why I think meta can be so hit or miss, too.

FYI: You mentioned ego searching me, but all my games are on my wiki which should make that part easier.

[RedCoyote]

No.