Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)
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In post 40, Vinkah wrote:your question to Wicked just seemed very softballish.
what kind of question would you have expected at that point?-
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In post 56, Vinkah wrote:i don't think it was just the question itself, i think my last post kind of clears that up?
seems like kind of a stretch-
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In post 59, Vinkah wrote:can you explain why you think my analysis of page one is a stretch but fferyllt's isn't? curious as to how you are parsing the two.
it's essentially saying Layla is scum because scum might open in the way that she did. there's nothing in there that explains why, specifically, she wouldn't be likely to do the same thing as town. I didn't have any problem with her opening posts, either.
ffery, on the other hand, said "newb-scum are less likely to be spontaneous than newb-town". I don't agree that 20 by itself was town, but either way it laid out something she specifically thought was unlikely to come from scum.
walk me through this in more detail?
In post 58, Wickedestjr wrote:How so? And how does that make you feel about Vinkah?
don't really think he's scum for it, just on the wrong track-
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In post 60, Gnomeo wrote:Your hope of your friends being town means you're probably scum manipulating them already.
it's fairly standard for Tammy to immediately reach out to people she knows/wants to work with at the start of the game. do you have any scum reads outside of her?-
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Wicked looks town for 74.
implosion looks town.
I hate RC's vote on notsci. I think that, if he was actually pissed off at notsci, wanting to policy him would be something he'd have felt like doing at the start of the game or when he first started to push him. what he did felt like he came up with it after the fact - as if he thought attempting to push a policy lynch would be a good thing to do in order to look busy/feign frustration and so there it was. I also hate that when Anen pushed him over it he wrote it all off as a "policy vote" when he had previously poked at notsci for a non-policy reason.
vote: RC-
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In post 78, Wickedestjr wrote:This is a weird question for someone with no scum reads to ask...
I don't think he's scum for it, I just think he's on the wrong track: he's calling Tammy scum for something I know she does at least as town and smth I'd expect her to do alignment regardless. the entire idea is to get him to push someone else. it also serves to get him to produce alignment-relevant content bc the Tammy reasoning is something I could easily enough see someone who doesn't have experience with Tammy pushing regardless of alignment.
In post 79, Vinkah wrote:this makes sense and pretty much kills what i was thinking.
what were you thinking?
also@notsci:you should wagon RC with me cos I'm pretty sure we're seeing the same thing with his push on you here. I'd also like if you could walk me through Vinkah-town and Anen-town bc I'm null on both so far.-
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In post 119, notscience wrote:I'm going to be giving you sideways glances all game though.
:>
In post 119, notscience wrote:Vinkah is kinda just a gut thing.
Anen's opening stuff just kinda feels town. It's not a ton but I felt like whereas most of the playerlist was null him I just kinda felt like "hm, maybe he is town"
I didn't like Anen's 65. there were a lot of throwaway comments there with no real push on anyone. the closest thing to a push was his first quote (re: implosion) which I thought was meh because I've seen that kind of statement coming from town as often as scum. I also thought he could have put a lot more effort into the push on me at the end - I don't get what he was trying to do with the last question.
on the other hand, I liked him calling out RC's push on you. I'm primarily waiting to see what he does when he gets back.-
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few quick thoughts before sleep:
Nacho might actually be scum. I don't *really* want to elaborate on this at this point bc he only had the one chance to do anything and I want to see what he does when he gets more engaged in the game before going any further with this, but he's not hitting certain notes I'd expect from him as town here. I'd also like to know if he makes anything of Anen's other posts when he gets back.
I don't think Cheetory's RC push is scummy. while I see what ffery is saying about his focus being narrow, in this situation, pushing RC and having no other reads seems like a reasonable enough course of action from someone who hasn't any time to do anything: he agrees with the primary wagon and started there because it was the most important thing to discuss at that point. I don't get the impression he's actively avoiding forming reads elsewhere off it. I'd (again) like to see what he does when he gets back.
I'm agreeing with the scum reads on Anen.-
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In post 140, Wickedestjr wrote:If the idea was to get him to push someone else, then why not just explain that you disagree with his vote? Asking him who his other suspects are doesn't seem to accomplish the goal of getting him to move his vote. The question just felt strange to me because you hadn't provided any scum reads but you were asking Gnome for more scum reads after he'd already given one.In post 141, Wickedestjr wrote:EBWOP: Also, if he voted Tammy for something that you think is null, why are you making an effort to get him to switch?
I did? I told him when I asked him that question why I disagreed with it.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the second question. his reasoning re: Tammy is something that almost certainly won't lead anywhere, hence it's pointless to pursue it. do you disagree?
In post 149, fferyllt wrote:Image conscious is part of what I've seen in his scum game, but his own description of how he plays scum fits the two games we played where he was scum to a T. I'm not seeing that here, and I'm seeing more of the irascible stuff I picked up on in the Walking Dead large theme game.
walk me through this in more detail?-
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Nacho's thoughts on Gnomeo's post, for the most part, mirror mine. the other thing I hated about it was that he's continuing to handwave the fact that he was pushing Tammy for something that was entirely playstyle related as "lol, I don't use meta". it doesn't matter if you use meta or not - if someone tells you something you're pushing is objectively wrong, the correct reaction is to step back and reevaluate it. what he did, on the other hand, amounted to ignoring it and going "nope". regardless of what you think about meta, if you say someone is scum for X and then someone tells you they do X as town all the time, you don't just entirely handwave dismiss it.
I'm about to pass out any second now. this will probably be the last chance I have to do anything until I get back from vacation Monday night - I'll respond to specific posts/stuff directed to me likely then.-
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I'm sorry, I'm in a really awful mood right now and don't feel like I can get to this in-depth tonight. tl;dr of where I'm currently at:
as I said before, Gnomeo is town. I don't see the way he's pushing the Tammy read here coming from scum. there are a few things that specifically made me think this that I can't think of right now OTOH, but on a general level, I get the impression he believes most of what he's saying, and a lot of it makes a lot more sense as town not understanding why the entire game is jumping down his throat for what he thought was an innocuous read as opposed to scum attempting to force a read for whatever reason. I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.
from what I could tell, Cheetory's push on Tammy was almost entirely semantic. I want to look at it more in-depth later, but one thing I disliked was 358 primarily bc Gnomeo had explained why he was being stubborn about the read already. it felt more like he saw a lot of people pushing Gnomeo for being stubborn about the Tammy read, thought it would be a good angle to push to look like he was doing something and there it was. I also don't really get why he would have expected Gnomeo to be aware of how Tammy opens games (re: the first question).
I feel better about Nacho based on his recent posts. I still don't *really* want to elaborate on what first pinged me re: him bc I'm not remotely sure about this, but he's done a much better job hitting the notes I was originally looking for in his opening posts. his thoughts on the recent situation re: Gnomeo/Cheetory also lined up with mine fairly well, which is a bonus.
notsci alluded to me being able to read him earlier. I thought 299/subsequent posts were town, but I'm conflicted on if notsci would think to fake something like that at the point where he did. besides that, I don't remember anything he did so far standing out as particularly town.
RC might actually be town? I'm going to defer judgement on this until I feel better bc the entire reasoning for this is his reach out to me and I don't think I'm stable enough right now to read something like that objectively without getting emotional about it. either way he is one of the people I want to reread in-depth bc I haven't looked at most of his recent posts in full yet.
there are a lot of things I want to hammer out via interactions, but that won't happen tonight. I do want to say@Tammy:do you remember Generic in Tales? I'm aware it's kinda unfair for me to bring this up when I haven't explained in full why I disagree with how you're interpreting Gnomeo's read on you yet, but I don't think his reaction was unreasonable - I think he just isn't familiar with how you tend to play.-
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In post 418, Tammy wrote:Also, you do realize that generic was playing as an alt who was claiming to be unfamiliar with me or the way I played when we had played several games together and knew very well how I played.
iirc he said he played on an alt specifically so he could read people/have people read him without relying on meta. so I'm assuming that he was under the impression he actually would have been reading your posts that way if he wasn't familiar with how you play.
I think most of what you're saying is a correct explanation of why his read on you is wrong. I just think in this case it happened bc he didn't think through the read all the way and is too stubborn to let up on it until he's absolutely sure he's on the wrong track (rather than him being scum forcing a read). what in particular did you want me to comment on?-
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In post 419, Gnomeo wrote:You are claiming not to townread Nacho, but still you're townreading RC because Nacho feels good about him. That does not make sense. You still haven't explained this.
In post 419, Gnomeo wrote:You have claimed not townreading him earlier. which is it?
this is the essence of where Gnomeo's scum read on Tammy came from. I disagree with both of these points, but I think both of them are entirely reasonable. the first one essentially amounts to a playstyle difference: he doesn't see why someone would sheep someone else's read unless they were town reading them. I buy that he thought Tammy was just "following" Nacho's read (the post this came from was 176, and I think it's a reasonable interpretation of it keeping in mind he missed 148), and from there, it makes sense he would assume she was town reading Nacho.
I think a lot of his posts make a lot more sense with this in mind. the logic he's pushing is consistent. there was nothing town in Nacho's opening posts - and if he thought Tammy was attempting to manipulate Nacho, it would have been correct to call bullshit on what he perceived as Tammy town reading him.
the second one I think in particular explains a lot of why he wasn't interested in people with meta experience with Tammy telling him he was wrong. he thinks he caught Tammy BS'ing a read on Nacho in order to manipulate him, which would be a strong point if it was correct. thus, he doesn't want to drop it unless he's sure that's not what she's doing. he doesn't care about people's meta experience with Tammy because it's entirely unrelated to what his point actually was (that Tammy had town read Nacho before it would have made any sense to). keeping this in mind, I don't *really* mind his attitude here - it comes off similarly to, for instance, someone getting pissed off on principle because someone else stepped into their line of questioning, which is a perfectly fine attitude to have. it might make sense as scum stretching to justify a fake read, but I don't think by any means it's explicitly *more* likely to come from scum.
in general, I think most of the reasoning he's pushing here happened as a result of him misunderstanding Tammy's posts as opposed to any scum-motivated reason.
In post 368, Gnomeo wrote:awww. Here I was thinking we were having a conversation.
I liked this. it reads like town indignated that people are handwaving his thoughts re: Tammy, which fits with him not liking people stepping into his line of questioning.
In post 419, Gnomeo wrote:I'm starting to feel better about you now that you're actually trying to talk to me. I have skipped some posts because I've seen you all discussing games I was not a part of and I have no idea what to make of that. Your next post is what I was looking for after my first post. Unfortunately it took 15 pages and multiple people questioning me to get an answer. I don't really see why, to be honest. What should have happened is me questioning something that stuck out, you answering and me considering if I'm satisfied with that answer or not.
this came after I first started saying Gnomeo's posts were town, but I also liked this. at this point, it was pretty obvious the entire shitstorm that happened was due to a misunderstanding (Tammy sheeping Nacho's RC read vs. her balancing it out with her own read). this is the correct reaction: step back and reevaluate. I don't get the impression he was pushing this based on convenience; if it was, I think he would have been more likely to back off when he started getting blowback for it or continue pushing it anyway.-
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In post 356, Cheetory6 wrote:Let’s talk at people about this instead of asking me about it weeeeeeee.
these kind of posts bug the hell out of me bc from what I remember Cheetory is more than capable of providing thoughts from the outside without having to engage with anyone - iirc this is what he did the majority of the mini normal we had together where I was scum. the way he keeps bringing this up feels like he's using it as a throwaway excuse to push people - it's not something that's explicitly scummy. while I believe he doesn't like people talking past him regardless of alignment, I think his focus on it here is entirely out of place.
In post 356, Cheetory6 wrote:Yeah well, I don't like that you're not probing me on the details of this stuff, and are instead just kind of throwing it out there. So I guess we’re even
When you scumread Empire/Zar/Espe in S&V it felt like, to me, that you were asking them questions to try and put them down if they were scum, where here you're just kind of throwing stuff out there and saying it feels off without having done anything about it.
Like. To me, it seems a lot like you're trying to set up a scumread on me so you have options, rather than actually trying to figure me out and all of this "these things make me feel weird but Iunno" feels like a weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing around while you're not even really trying to engage me on things. Are you just kind of hoping I'll sort myself out? Because this passive scumhunting feels off, especially since I have already poked at you and in response you've just kind of flopped semi-angrily at me.
I hated this bc it felt entirely arbitrary. his angle here is that Tammy is scum because ... she's laying out thoughts in her posts as opposed to specifically engaging people about them? why is her not engaging indicative of her not trying to figure him out when it's pretty fucking obvious she's at the very least reading and analyzing his posts? it makes no sense to try and push that engagement is necessary for forming reads, and I think he'd know this.
the other thing I'm wondering is that, if he actually thought this, why he's not questioning me for the same thing. I haven't directly engaged with anyone at all this game, yet he doesn't seem to have any problem attempting to read me based entirely around the reasoning I'm pushing (253).
In post 358, Cheetory6 wrote:@Gnomeo, do you intend on being stubborn every time someone tries to reach out/pull apart your scumread on Tammy by just asking them why they're doing it?
Why is Tammy buddying Nacho and not scum trying to emulate a very distinctive manner in which she tends to open her towngames? What does she have to gain by being so overt if that's her goal in the former situation?
I didn't like this bc for one it came after 3 people pointed out the exact same thing. I think there is scum motivation here in that 1. he's getting a fuckton of blowback for the Tammy push and this allows him to posture to back off and push Gnomeo instead later if he wants; 2. Gnomeo was a main wagon at this point and it serves to push it from the sidelines without actually getting involved with it. the other thing is that these questions at the end are really soft. given what Gnomeo did so far, why would he expect him to be aware Tammy usually opens games in the way she did as town at the point where he asked the question? why *wouldn't* scum-Tammy buddy Nacho in the way she did here if she wanted to buddy Nacho? it reads like scum flow-going and throwing in a few extra questions in the end in order to appear like they're producing original content.
@Cheetory:this was directed towards everyone, but I'd like if you could respond to/engage with me on this bc I'm aware you tend not to like people talking past you regardless of what your alignment is. I think that, if you're town here, you should stop focusing on stuff like that bc it reads more like you're using it as an easy excuse to push people than anything.
p-edit: I see your posts. response incoming.-
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In post 449, fferyllt wrote:What are your thoughts about RC?
I actually still haven't reread him. I'm willing to accept Nacho saying he'd have faked frustration differently if that's what he was going for, though. what are your thoughts?
In post 450, fferyllt wrote:I more or less agree with your thoughts about gnomeo's tammy case. And prior to reading his one theme game, I thought he's showing much more depth and development of his reads than he had in his earlier game. hoh is sort of an enigma in his meta.
I agree with this in terms of him showing depth in his read here.-
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I actually don't make anything out of Anen saying I'm "shadowing" the wagon on him and then leaving me off the list of people shadowing his wagon anyway. it's equally as likely, for instance, that he just forgot about me when he made that list. however, I don't think anything he's done has been remotely town.
I agree with just about everything Wicked has been posting recently. 446 in particular nailed a lot of the problems I had with Nacho's posts at the start of the game.-
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In post 455, fferyllt wrote:Re RC I'm leaning town. It's not a strong lean and I'd like to see more discussion from him.
I'm not picking up a lot of scum vibes in this game. :/
what's making you lean town on him?-
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In post 458, fferyllt wrote:experiential meta. I've played against scum-RC a couple times, and town RC once. This doesn't feel like his scum games. he plays a very assured and town-looking game as scum.
I'm cautious and I want to keep reevaluating but so far I feel like he's town here.
link me the scum games you're comparing it to?-
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In post 483, implosion wrote:Idk. I read Cheeto as town. I think his talking about himself is very genuine, and some of the points that have been criticized for inconsistency (like Wicked criticizing the "i want to scream right now" line) felt very consistent to me. He said he was going to try to be patient at the beginning of the post, wrote a giant-ass post, then posted another post 25 minutes later. That feels consistent.
The way he's talking about how he's going to towntell while taking ownership of the fact that he's being read as scummy reads to me as being genuine. I don't think he's scum.
I don't agree with this. I think it's likely he would start playing like this regardless of what his alignment here is: town-him would realize he's having an off game and step back, scum-him would see a bunch of people pushing him and go into damage control mode. taking ownership of the fact you're being read as scummy is a really easy thing to fake.-
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I considered voting Cheetory but I kind of want to give him at least some room to get back into the game if he's town here. I think if he's town, I'll be able to figure it out once he catches up - and I'd explicitly prefer to see him catch up on his own accord as opposed to influencing it by voting him.
also, I don't *really* have any problem with RC's posts outside of the initial issue re: notsci (which I'm willing to drop given Nacho is saying it's not a scum tell for him). will probably look through his scum games tonight.-
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In post 487, fferyllt wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=35056 - I feel this one maps very nicely to what he's said about his scum game.
I'm reading through this one and I definitely agree it doesn't look similar to here. it felt like he had a really clear direction in his scum game here - he came in and formed a bunch of solid/well-reasoned reads and started pushing them immediately. it also felt like he remained relatively consistent in his reads in that he stuck to them/pushed them hard and only backed off when he had a really good reason for it.
I thought the last part of 360 stood out when I first read it bc of the large number of town reads he threw out (part of me wanted to call it town but it was mostly gut as opposed to anything substantive). I think if you take the meta into account this in particular is a huge contrast to how he played as scum bc it really doesn't look like he's trying to push an agenda here "these people are scum, lynch them" vs. "everyone in the game looks town and none of my scum reads are that strong". looking through the rest of the post, it feels like he's focusing a lot less on pushing his scum reads and more on the rest of the game, which would also fit with not having a clear direction to push.
I usually tend to worry about putting too much stock into meta like this on the off chance he's able to deliberately manipulate it, but either way, I think I'm seeing the same thing you are here.-
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In post 511, Nachomamma8 wrote:Then who are you going to push in the interim? Do you really think that you not voting him is going to make a significant difference in the pressure he feels or that Cheetory-town can't properly do his thing under pressure?
there's nothing more annoying (at least for me) than being behind, having a wagon/votes on you as a result of not being caught up fully, and feeling like you have to derail it as a result instead of feeling like you're free to do whatever you want
see: me at the start of Forest Fire. I'm pretty sure you can agree it's a hell of a lot more difficult to read someone who is distracted with other shit instead of forming reads naturally and I'd rather not risk having a chance of something like that happening if I can help it (Tammy didn't really read me until D2, you flipped out on me that one point on D1 even when you realized the way I played it wouldn't have came from scum, etc.).
In post 512, Nachomamma8 wrote:Also, what did you think about this post?
it likely happened bc he incorrectly town read me in The Burning for making logical posts. I don't find it telling either way.-
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In post 513, Cheetory6 wrote:I do intend to actually start pushing things, but I have a tendency to struggle if I don't respond to things before trying to focus on reading things.
this is the kind of thing I'm referring to when I say I want to at least give him some grace period to get invested in the game, btw-
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In post 553, fferyllt wrote:Town
Wickedestjr
Implosion
Vinkah
Kinda Town
RedCoyote (paranoia keeps him out of the top list)
Cheetory
Tammy
Maybe Town (Null)
Nacho (stubborn paranoia keeps him here right now, though I like his posts and reads trajectories. Disagreed with his Cheetory push, but it impacted my cheetory read anyway. :/)
notsci (faded read)
Layla (faded read)
Gnomeo (I feel like he's too brief and abrupt on some level which makes him hard to read. If he's town he's processing the game so differently from me that I doubt I'll be able to understand him)
Not So Town
Anen - flaily feeling before he went on v/la. Didn't come back when he said he would, except to say "later".
i still haven't read everything i missed bc preparing a house to move sucks, but this reads list makes me sad.-
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In post 532, notscience wrote:I made a huge fucking deal about her rate at reading me in that mini that just finished and pie's not sure I'd think to fake that as scum? Really? That looks forced as hell and is bugging the everliving shit out of me
suppose you *did* make a post like that as scum and then I come in with a correct scum read on you (which I would assume you'd be expecting to happen). what do you think happens then?-
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I don't like where Anen's attitude is coming from if he's town here. I think I've made it pretty obvious I at least want to see what he does when he gets back first before definitively calling him scum, and other ppl have said something similar (ex. ffery said he "had enough votes on him already"). so I don't get where him continuing to shut down and resign himself to "meh, everyone is just going to call everything I do scummy" is coming from.
I'm not *really* sure if it's scummy bc I've seen this kind of attitude coming from town a fair amount, but the more he pulls this the more I'm seeing it as a crutch to avoid having to generate content bc I'm definitely not the only person who said in the game thread I wanted to give him room to catch up in the game and I'm pretty sure I've been saying as much for a while now.
my initial thought when reading the rest of his post is that it looked like scum trying to get town read by taking unlikely stances (both ffery/Tammy as scum); I think there is scum motivation in his reads here in that despite pushing ffery against the entire game reading her as town he leaves the option open to join the Cheetory push later if he doesn't get anywhere. this is even more so the case if he had supposedly been deliberately been doing the same thing he did in the last game he had with ffery in order to reaction test her (why give up if you supposedly have a lead you've been working on?).-
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In post 605, fferyllt wrote:Tonally I'm getting occasional tiny overwhelmed-town flickers from his flailyness.
I don't really get the same sense off of it. plus in this situation I would expect he'd be at least somewhat overwhelmed regardless of what his alignment actually is (town-him can't get engaged in the game, scum-him has no idea what to do to look adequately town/fight his lynch). do you disagree?-
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In post 619, RedCoyote wrote:...he's not even being voted now? :/
yeah, but ffery/Tammy were talking about wagoning him earlier.-
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I will say I will be pretty pissed off if it turns out this game is multiball. also I don't really have a problem with Layla not doing anything recently given she said she was busy. I would like to see what she does when she gets back though bc I have town reads on the majority of the other players and she could easily be scum via POE.
I kind of just want to hammer.-
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also also I disagree with the first point in Cheetory's 559 being an exaggeration. the logic there is correct. Anen was wrong to push implosion vote on him as an "OMGUS" if it was done entirely bc he had pushed him first (as opposed to having reason to specifically think implosion's vote on him was disingenuous), and even then he outright admitted it wasn't a strong point.-
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In post 743, Tammy wrote:Oh wait, I suppose he could be a vig shot and the real kill was healed. That fits into my worldview better and maybe keeps me from looking at the game squinty eyed where I'm likely to jump at every shadow like a tweaked out meth addict.
Sk pretending to be vig works too.
^i'm operating under the assumption this is what happened-
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pieguyn Survivor
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In post 773, notscience wrote:That's nice, I'm still town, and I will still point back to earlier.
So.
what happened to your read on me from earlier? also, what do you make of the exchange between ffery/me starting from 458?-
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In post 776, Wickedestjr wrote:-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:
RedCoyote wrote:If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.
feels like setup for a known mislynch.
I don't think the first thing is something that's particularly scummy. it's as likely that he just didn't feel that strongly that Anen was scum and I didn't think it came off disingenuous. plus, I think (especially given what ffery brought up re: his meta earlier) he sure as hell could have acted more confident if he is actually scum here.
neither is the second thing. I'm seeing it as him having his own scum reads, but being willing to factor into account people's interactions with the Anen wagon if he flipped town here. I don't see what you think is weird about it.
I don't see how he's doing what you're saying he's doing re: the third point. the logic there makes sense: he doesn't see any better viable options and does not want to go around scrambling to find another lynch when he doesn't see a reason to. why do you think he wouldn't have said it as town?
also I'd be interested in hearing your response to my question to notsci in the previous post.-
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In post 826, fferyllt wrote:pieguy what's your nacho read?
town
his end-of-D1 posting was solid enough that I don't have any problem with him. there was also his reaction to the Gnomeo v. Tammy situation that happened earlier, which I thought looked town in that he picked up on what I was seeing re: Gnomeo before I said it in the game thread.
I don't mind the fact that he left his vote on Anen at D1 end, either; I think just about nothing can beat him promising to catch up and hammer Lia in Over the Garden Wall and then blatantly not having a chance to do it before the deadline hit. and it didn't look like scum leaving a vote on a wagon while trying to push elsewhere; he was pretty clearly attempting to refine the read and he had no other scum reads he was attempting to push. the logic there is consistent.
I'm considering following you onto Boon. do you make anything of Cheetory's posts towards Anen at D1 end?-
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In post 818, Wickedestjr wrote:I’m not one to look at a player’s reads just because they’re confirmed town. I read everything that everyone says and seek help sometimes (case in point my question towards Tammy), but for the most part I develop my reads independently… Perhaps this is just a play style difference, but I'm having trouble understanding it.
well yeah, but it's still fairly standard for someone to at the least look at it when someone points out what they think about their wagon.
RC: I have scum reads on x, y, z for *these reasons*.
Anen: once I get lynched, look at players a and b for *reasons related to my wagon*.
RC: if Anen flips town, it might be worth looking at a and b sometime later for the reasons he pointed out.
I don't see how this is a big deal in any way whatsoever. do you disagree?
In post 818, Wickedestjr wrote:I’ve never seen an RC-scum game before. My experience with RC is swag town where I correctly strong-town read him from the start. I’ve heard a few people say that he has a strong scum game and I’m usually very cautious in reading players like that, but I still got strong town vibes from him there. For whatever reason, his posting here doesn’t give me that equally strong feeling of genuineness. I should check those scum games that ffery posted…
you probably should. it's fairly different to his play here.-
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In post 836, fferyllt wrote:I don't know what to make of cheetory's posts toward Anen. It felt like he grabbed hold of that example game where Anen was town and I saw it immediately when I replaced in for more than it was worth, especially given the various comments about Anen having a good scum game. Was disappointed cheetory replaced out because I was hoping to get a better grip today. TAmmy's comments about we the purple combined with not liking Boonskies' entrance pushed me into voting there.
I kind of thought Cheetory's posts at the end were town bc I saw where he was coming from with his lines of questioning. I agreed Anen doing nothing but making posts about his wagon would have been an easily fakeable strategy to employ as scum, and I liked the way he was specifically pushing him to answer the questions he had asked him before. it read like he was trying to get Anen to generate legitimate content that would be more difficult to fake as scum. the point about how he played in the game with you I don't make as much out of; I think his point there was that he as town should see that his play was different rather than calling you scum for saying it was different, not explicitly that he was scum for playing differently.
Boon's entrance was what pinged for me too. I didn't like that he walked in here with only the one read on Wicked and didn't lay out any other reads, and it didn't feel like he was actually trying to give a good explanation for said Wicked read. I want him to get in here and explain specifically what he's talking about there.-
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In post 837, Wickedestjr wrote:@pieguyn-
I had issue with that part for the same reason that I found the third part scummy. It just felt like preparation for the criticism that a known mislynch might provoke. It allows him to defend today with, "well we were wrong, but at least we can look at his reads from yesterday" if he needs to. It's certainly possible that I'm just pursuing insignificant play style differences, but the wording of his hammer post made me feel like he was worried about catching flak for it...
ehhh
I don't really agree this as big a deal as you think it is; as I said before, I would expect taking Anen's reads at the end into account would be a fairly standard thing. I think we're disagreeing on this in principle, though.-
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In post 872, fferyllt wrote:refining reads, isn't really the right word for what I feel is missing. I can think of several examples where she's done that. It just feels like none of the refinement is pushing in the direction of scumreading.
I don't really have anything for scum reads. this is definitely a "too many town reads" type of game.-
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ohey I have a read.
vote: Boon
you're following the game enough to be aware on the wagon on S-S popping up, yet you don't respond to everyone asking you for your other reads besides Wicked? hand 'em over. cos this doesn't feel like you've actually read the game or are actually trying to sort through it; it feels like you're posturing more out of convenience here.-
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In post 848, Wickedestjr wrote:How big a deal did I say it was?
Honestly, it's not the kind of thing that I see much of IME. And even for someone that does like taking the dead guy's contributions into account, I don't see why it's necessary to express that intention before seeing the flip, because it's completely irrelevant if the flip is scum (which he saw as a decent possibility).
it isn't something you see much of. it *is* something that (in my opinion at least) people should do more often bc no one ever does it and people who get lynched often have valid reads. I also don't think it's him explicitly "I'll take Anen's reads into account", I think it's "I'll cross-reference these reads later and see if they make sense or not" - which is a lot more reasonable and something you would say even if you thought Anen was more likely scum (if he's scum you just don't bother).
it was one of your reasons for voting him, so I'm assuming you considered it important enough to vote over. either way, I don't see the problem here.-
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In post 894, Boonskiies wrote:I saw the vote count, LL. I'm not caught up. I didn't recognize that avatar, and of course it's pie. Haha. Nah, I'd vote me too this game. I haven't done crap.
didn't you say you were? >.>
either way, when you catch up, I'd like a more in-depth explanation of the Wicked read.-
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oh bullshit
YOU of all people should be aware of why I'm not as able to put as much effort into this specific game as I usually do. it makes some sense coming from ffery, but from you, fucking really? you know damn well where most of my engagement on-site has been recently and that you'd ignore that and push me anyway sets of all kinds of alarm bells and makes me think this is just you testing the waters to see if I'm actually lynchable here. I would also expect you should be aware that I sure as hell would be able to bullshit a push on someone if I actually was scum (as one example: what we did to MS D1 of Over the Garden Wall) especially given how I've always talked about how I've got a lot better about faking conviction recently.
I also absolutely refuse to believe you would post something like this without any engagement with me or attempt to sort me at all in the rest of the game. if you were worried about me, why wouldn't you, you know, actually *ask* me about what my reads were or why I wouldn't push anyone? this is even more so the case when you're supposedly in the exact same position as I am (your latest reads post had 4 town reads, one of whom you're now calling scum, and no scum reads).
you have one chance to rectify this. talk to me about what, specifically, you've wanted to see from me that you haven't been seeing.
In post 898, fferyllt wrote:What does knowing some of your reads are wrong do to your feel of the gamestate?
I'm pretty sure all of {you, Wicked, Nacho, RC, Tammy} are town, but I'm worried bc I don't really have any strong scum reads whatsoever. the only thing I've really thought was scummy recently was Boon's entrance (and notsci's post) and even then 1. he apparently wasn't caught up (I was working under the assumption he was), 2. I'd like to see more from him when he *does* catch up before I make a definite judgement there.
essentially, I am attempting to counter-balance it by being more strict with town reads.-
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In post 847, notscience wrote:VOTE: S-S
Who takes a post like that on blind faith?
Like, wouldn't that be setting off alarms?
I'm reading this again and I actually really hate this reasoning. why do you think, for instance, scum S-S *wouldn't* think to double check what you said first? I'm pretty fucking sure this is the kind of thing most scum would stop to think about (Ank from H+1); on the other hand, I *can* potentially see it from town who hasn't seen any need to read anything. I don't think it's a strong tell but either way you have it entirely backwards.
I'd also like to know how what happened to your town read on Layla from earlier.-
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In post 909, Soft-spoken wrote:@pie if you are looking for possible scum on my wagon i dont think its notsci. id go with one of the people who actually perpetuated the faulty reasoning... rather than notsci who has seen the forced elements of my posting.
i want notsci to answer my question first
mostly out of curiosity, is this you saying you were deliberately forcing it in order to get reactions?-
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my issue with Wicked is that, while a lot of things he's posted have *looked* town, I don't think any of it was particularly unfakeable. with, for example, ffery, or Nacho, there is stuff I can point to and say "yeah this definitely doesn't look like scum" - that is, stuff that I'd consider near-100% tells towards them being town; with Wicked, there are none
the towniest thing he's done in my eyes is looking through Cheetory's meta D1 and backing off his initial push on him as a result, but if it really came down to it I think he would have been capable of faking that
I'm not sure if I'm just reading way too much into it here, but either way, I'd like if someone who's town reading him could walk me through it.
in other news re: S-S wagon, I don't like implosion's 858, namely him calling attention to the fact that "several people have agreed you might be scum". I think scum are more likely to use stuff like that in order to discredit people than town are to think about it for legitimate reasons. the point about him backing up Wicked's point when it wasn't particularly good is also a good one.-
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I'm for the most part caught up. where I'm currently at: notsci's response to me reminds me of what people like Sakura do as scum. jt read like he had no idea what to say in order to respond, so he just made something up. I don't really know if he's scum for it, but I don't think it was in any way a town response.
S-S might be town.
also, I was thinking about Cheetory's play in We the Purple earlier, but I wasn't thinking about how he treated Tammy that game. the primary thing I remember from that game, mostly because of how dumb/semantic it was, was how he treated Generic. he kept calling Generic scum for shit like "appealing to the crowd" (I don't remember the exact phrasing but it was something equally dumb where it was essentially Generic laying out arguments not directed to anyone as opposed to specifically interacting with one person at a time) when it was really obviously a playstyle issue and it was Generic's way of attempting to convince people to vote along with him. I went back to look at his interaction with Tammy again (namely 356) and I *really* think it looks similar to there. some of the arguments he's pushing are literally the same arguments in terms of him nitpicking that she was "throwing it out there" instead of "probing him" over it.
I think it would make sense he'd get frustrated at that alignment regardless, but I think it's the kind of thing where people have to do it a lot/on a consistent basis in order to have any effect on anyone. I think the way he focused on it here looked really unnatural.
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