Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Nachomamma8]

If you say "yes, this is how we'd play together as scum" then I don't really get anything out of it.

This wasn't clear in other stuff you said.
Okay.

[Nachomamma8]

My guess would be that you'd answer it honestly even as scum. That's probably what I would wind up doing in that situation.

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

You're weird.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that explaining your thought process instead of making vague references it would be much more helpful.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that notscience is town, as I've also stated before.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't believe Nacho tried to lynch me, that's what I can't believe. That scummy bastard. That so lit a fire under me.

Glad I could help!

[Nachomamma8]

:/

[Nachomamma8]

I read that wall twice now and it looked terrible both times.

[Nachomamma8]

vote: Nacho

:/

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm concerned because one feeling that I very distinctly remember from the mason game and from the selkies game is this exact feeling of being abandoned; I know there are pretty strong differences here between games but I thought we were on the same wavelength for the majority of the game (if not all of it) so this is a pretty unpleasant surprise.

[Nachomamma8]

So, at the very beginning of replacing in I was like "hmm weird af that the little cluster of Fferyllt, Nacho, and Tammy is still alive". That is why I initially said that group has at least 1 scum. I still stand behind that comment.

This is a strange comment to make when scum have only been able to shoot one threat this game and that person flipped jailkeeper; it's not like the me/Tammy/Ffery core has been reduced to just one and. the last person isn't getting shot for some inexplicable reason.

[Nachomamma8]

Reading through the thread, I think fferyllt is solidly town. I don't remember playing a game with fferyllt as a solo slot, but I think her play is town regardless. Fferyllt if you're scum at the end of this, I am going to be sadface.

This is a coonsensus townread. Why do you think Ffery is town?

[Nachomamma8]

And since I'm underground and can't look at quotes or posts, gonna ramble a bit and explore the Ffery scum read a bit more because it actually makes a lot of lot of sense. If oversoul is scum and he makes a big post everyone but me and RC likes, then that is the absolute perfect time for her to spend some town cred pushing me. Bonus is she knows that she's justified in feeling paranoia based on some of the recent games together and she knows that I probably won't push her back in response to paranoia since I normally don't, so even if she doesn't get me lynched, she knows she's probably safe and she knows taking a position like that in response to my oversoul read is immediately going to make me doubt my oversoul read. If we were to get really, really crazy then it might even be possible that Layla jailed me N1, Ffery shot me, and that explains why S-S treated his scum read on me the way he did (kept it in the back of his mind, didn't really pursue it) and it would most definitely explain why S-S died in the night almost immediately because no one else had a weird interaction with me and the only person who would probably protect me N1 would be Tammy who claimed rolecop at that point :/

The reasons I thought Ffery was town dealt a lot with how she opened the game; normally her first few posts as scum are the weakest until she gets in a good groove. I liked her interactions with S-S a lot; her townread on that slot seemed like she was refreshed and relieved and I don't think that tone really comes across in her posting that clearly as scum. I thought that us voting together as much as we did was a sign of a good mind meld but then she could be following me too closely, but then I liked her challenge of me when I voted RC but never really understood the strong Vinkah townread, especially now that I think I know who he is?

Coming above ground now.

[Nachomamma8]

When I got to his claim, his VIG claim, it was pretty baller. Reminds me of my own types of claims. Placed at the tail end of the day, when putting Anen at L-1 at a time he thought Anen could be lynched. That all seems town motivated. However, holy fuck the coincidences of EVERYONE targetting Gnomeo night 1 is really, really, really not likely.

While this is probably a decent indication these two aren't partners together, implosion didn't claim vig D1 when he put Anen at L-1. He claimed Day 2 when notscience put him at L-1. And while this isn't a huge smoking gun or anything since I wouldn't expect either alignment to just put out false information, I really have absolutely no idea how Oversoul got that specific bit wrong and wonder how exactly he got that wrong. Scum talking about setting up a fake vig claim actually sort of makes sense to me, but more importantly I feel like missing a huge chunk of information on the person he was rage boner scumreading is really, really strange.

[Nachomamma8]

I voted you, hoping you're town and you'll show it in your reaction and you'll do what I can't seem to do which is solve this game.

Why did you vote me when you did? What is your opinion on oversoul's entry?

I'm not sure how I feel about you voting me to get a reaction. That seems uncharacteristic.

[Nachomamma8]

So yeah, the claim itself looks legit but the play surrounding the claim looks so unlegit. Like god. I wish I was the vig. So sad. Anyway, implosion AGAIN choosing not to shoot is sketch as fuck. And if he *doesn't* shoot tonight he is 100% the lynch tomorrow. Even if scum have an RB, and it SURE as hell better not be a more than 2 shot RB or the reviewers sux, implosion should be confirmed tomorrow. Tammy should take a 50% on choosing one of RC/Implosion I think. HOWEVER, I think implosion should choose to shoot RC. BUT fuck. One of the main reasons I want to shoot RC is because of his claim.

And this is something that I keep reading and reading again because it doesn't really make sense and I can't see why oversoul thinks why the way he does here. Like, the really really strong implosion!scum position he takes overwhelms the shit out of most of the paragraph but most posting directed at implosion doesn't really seem to be scumreading him (like the "you hold people's lives in your hands! post), and he apparently has a whole bunch of reasons why he thinks implosion is scum except for this one point that didn't even happen which again sketches me out because I still have absolutely no idea how the hell he could possibly have created that situation in the first place.

His interactions with RC about the Miller claim quite frankly make a grand total of zero sense, which I guess I'll get into in a minute.

[Nachomamma8]

When I saw RC's claim that was like when my mind started to implode and leak out my nostrils and ears and tear ducts. It was bad. Oh my god bad. Miller is a claim that scum can preemptively play like... And RC in my mind is like the complete opposite of Implosion. Whereas with Implosion I HATED his play throughout the day, I thought RC's play was not that bad during the day. Whereas with Implosion I loved the claim, I hated RC's claim. I think both of those dropped the ball somewhat with how to play the role effectively. RC playing dumb about a death miller is also sketch too.

There's also just this... The reason oversoul hates RC's .Miller claim so much is because, and I quote, "it's something scum can play preemptively like..." and for death Miller stuff, and this apparently translates into RC seriously dropping the ball for how to play his role effectively? What?

I hate this push the most because what he picks on is so so easy to pick on and then it ignores everything else playwise and setup wise and just doesn't seem like something people actually think

[Nachomamma8]

Short things I have to say that are more significant than not and can't wait until later is that he becomes significantly more scummy with the VT claim; I posted the "I'll lynch all PR claims" and was mostly serious about it earlier, and I think the way he claimed to Tammy was really manipulative.

If he was not VT, the only reason to claim VT would be to remain hidden to do damage to the scum team overnight. Claiming not VT makes him a threat to either kill or roleblock. Having Tammy target him when Tammy has about a 99% chance of dying tonight is :/, but extra extra doesn't make sense if he believes that Tammy is just gonna waltz in and townread him.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho trying to save Notsci his buddy
Right on time

Did you read anything that I said?

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think about the pieguy/notsci thing that's been simmering all game and broke out into a conflagration today?

Notsci looks good. Pie doesn't. If there's scum in the pair, it's her.

Do you think as scum he'd feel the situation is dire enough for his slot that he'd hail mary? because if he actually has a PR then I feel like someone else - maybe implosion? - is lying. how to factor in Tammy's reaction that he's town?

Don't think the PR claim was a Hail Mary, I think it was something he didn't realize he could get away with before and just leapt for it.

I want to talk to Tammy about the read because I think the stuff before the big post looked fine but the big post really really didn't look fine

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. It is all poppycock.

I said what I said because you are trying to deviate from the Notsci lynch by getting me lynched. You know you have to do something magnificent now because fferylt no longer trusts you.

I have to go. Don't be afraid to self-hammer while I'm gone.

[Nachomamma8]

Who becomes more scummy with the vt claim?

Oversoul becomes significantly more scummy with the not vt claim.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a backup rolecop.

I really really don't feel like defending myself right now, but I'll get something up in thread anyways.

[Nachomamma8]

Well why does "missing town traits" suddenly trump "different scum meta"? And what prompted this reread?

My RC meta as its most basic level is that RC as scum is aggressive, engaged, pushes mislynches, widely townread for being conventionally town. RC as town is not.

Normally, what makes a player good as scum to the point where they can be successful in a wide variety of playerlists is through self-awareness, and by possessing an understanding of how other players read you. RC possesses that awareness, and, while it seems unlikely to me that RC would fake his town meta as scum because it gives him less influence in the game and still puts him under a lot of pressure; so, early game, when he seemed more directionless and flail-y, I was townreading him for that very reason. But, whenever you are townreading someone for performing under what they are capable of as scum as opposed to townreading them for outperforming what they are capable as scum, there is always doubt and there is always uneasiness. When Boon became town and implosion claimed vig, my reads were past shot to shit; the only person who really seemed to have a feasible chance of being scum anymore was Vinkah, but that push in and of itself frustrated me because I knew it was a lynch that was exactly like the Boonskies lynch: no one really had a case beyond "lurking, probably not town", and while this is actually a perfectly fine reason to lynch on some occasions, it frustrated me that we kept compromising on lynches for that reason or similar reasons and I knew that Vinkah!town would leave us right back where we started and would probably be fatal for the game state the next day. I saw S-S and Ffery expressing discomfort with RC, so that's where I started. When I started reading RC through a lens of "how does this move make sense as scum from RC?" instead of "is this

really

RC's scumgame?", him being scum made more sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey guys, the point of a massclaim is to claim your role truthfully.

There really wasn't any reason to claim my role truthfully in that situation.

[Nachomamma8]

Picking up on who he's pushing instead of focusing on the reasons he is pushing them is a subtlety to me. Is this an unreasonable viewpoint to have? Why?

Uh... yeah I think the decision of who to push is a pretty crucial thing. I'm not sure how to explain this because it seems pretty trivial. The reasoning is probably easier to dissect and interpret than the target choice, sure. But I also think that scum put a lot of thought into picking who they will attack - e.g. what's safe, what's best for them and their partners, etc.

I've literally caught scum before with a case that mostly revolved around voting behavior.

I mean obviously it isn't

that

subtle, or you wouldn't be referring to it now.

This argument in particular is something that I'd bring out when I'm saying I don't think you understand me. Why is the argument being subtle/not subtle significant?

What I was trying to say was that picking up on RC being scum required a different mindset and a different approach. I didn't think that his votes really looked scummy, I didn't really think that his cases were bad or uncharacteristic, and I didn't think that most of the moves he made that trended more on the anti-town side (most notably the hammer, don't think there were other things but there might have been) were worth the heat that he got and was obviously coming.

Whether this was subtle, or not subtle is not something that is important to me. I don't understand why it's important to you. I understand that you look for contradictions because they are a good place to start but I don't understand why you think me as town knows the difference between subtle and not subtle but me as scum doesn't or why you think there is any advantage as scum in pushing otherwise.

[Nachomamma8]

When massclaim happened, I was in a good position in that I still wasn't a very likely lynch and I was definitely not a target for kill since I was probably one of the easier mislynches in the game. Tammy had outed as role cop and was almost definitely going to die that night without useful information. There is almost guaranteed to be one scum that can be outed by investigation on the scum team, and at least one more person (you), whose alignment could still be proven by investigation. Being able to get an investigation off on you if your kill doesn't go through for some reason or getting another shot at the scum who is almost certainly going deep seemed infinitely more useful than being honest for the sake of honesty, and I wasn't interested in arguing against a massclaim when my only reason for doing so was trying to stay hidden as a power role.

[Nachomamma8]

What. Are you serious?

You said your problem with RC was that his hammer was too image-conscious. That was two thirds of my case against him! (First and third points)

This feels like a misrep

Your problem with RC is that he's trying to soften the blow of a mislynch by saying that he's not that sure about it and by saying that a town flip wouldn't be that bad, which are conventional scumtells based on the theory that scum are less confident pushing mislynches than town because theyknow what they are doing is wrong.

My problem with the hammer was that he even gave reasons he was hammering at all; there was no need for him to explain himself to anyone, so explaining his mindset to everyone else (even if it was 100% how he would approach the situation as town) seemed like it had no other purpose other than damage control, which I don't think was your point but it suddenly dawns on me that I'm just making that assumption and am probably a huge ass in doing so, so sorry for that.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think about the pieguy/notsci thing that's been simmering all game and broke out into a conflagration today?

I haven't wanted to and don't want to deal with it. I think notscience has been approaching this game in a way that is very very different from how I'd expect him to approach it as scum. I think that as scum he has reached a point where he's become self-aware and is able to replicate what people find so town about him and that as scum he would be playing to those strengths instead of pushing towards uncharted territory like he has here.

I've gone back and forth on pieguyn a lot because she also is approaching this game pretty differently than from what I'd expect her to as scum, but she hasn't done anything that I couldn't see her faking as scum until recently. And while intellectually I realize that is a dumb reason to scumread someone or be happy with them as a lower tier read and leaving it at that, I haven't wanted to push pie harder because I have no real reason to and thus would be pushing her based on POE and nothing else and I know that she would hate that based on our relationship and it's the type of move that would burn bridges as far as mutual trust goes in this game. It's been my intention to reach out to her wrt the notscience read, but I've just gotten distracted doing other things with my still limited time.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho - I realize you're a couple hundred posts behind but when you do get to my question about ffery I really want to talk about your concerns there.

I'd really appreciate the chance to go through things at my own pace. I've been feeling like I'm being pulled in a lot of directions this game and that it's ended up in me responding to a lot of things and not saying what I want to say and playing worse.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh boy am I tired!

[Nachomamma8]

But here I am, posting and catching up and being a good Groot! Yay Nacho! You are the best! You're super town and everyone loves you!

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry for the delay, I didn't submit my thoughts on pie earlier because they were covered in accidental gossip girl spoilers and I figured the words that came out weren't very close to the words I thought in my head.

[Nachomamma8]

From my admittedly limited exposure to pie as scum, I've noticed that as scum, she is immediately looking to push mislynches and doesn't really bother faking early waffling/indecision switching of reads, she just relies on the strength of her cases and the effort she puts in the game to make people think she is town early. The way she started forming reads in the early stages and broadcasting them in a way that seemed like the natural conclusion and easy move as scum was to just keep pushing them, and instead, in post [417[/b], where she burned down most of her previous reads and then just started again.

[Nachomamma8]

The second thing I liked was her interactions with Cheetory, especially the ones near the end of the first day. Reaching out to him the way he did and giving him room so he wouldn't seem unfcomfortable and overwhelmed seemed oddly considerate for scum pushing a mislynch; wasn't an angle she had to take and wasn't an angle that furthered a particular scum agenda. I thought that it was even better in retrospect, considering Anen scum read + ended up with weak townread on counterwagon was sort of the worst of both worlds for her as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you think as scum he'd feel the situation is dire enough for his slot that he'd hail mary? because if he actually has a PR then I feel like someone else - maybe implosion? - is lying. how to factor in Tammy's reaction that he's town?

The VT-NotVT-VT claim seems townish in that it seems too ridiculous to be anything but town crazy. The NotVT claim was atrocious nonsense and manipulative, and seemed like an easy choice for "claimed power role most like to be fake" at the time.

Now there's a question of would Oversoul play like this as scum; I guess I've always imagined his scum game a lot more methodical and his town meta random but a lot of what he's talking about doesn't make sense, I hate the way he interacted with my read on him, and the confidence is blarge and also I really can't see him being one of the town reads in the group I was working with earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

how to factor in Tammy's reaction that he's town?

If she tells me to stop, I probably stop.

In the meantime, she forms a good read on him and I form mine.

[Nachomamma8]

Uncharted territory. You're coming off calm and disconnected. It's been like that to some degree all along, but today is more so.

Part of it is conscious effort to prevent frustrations from spilling over into the game thread, which has happened quite a bit lately in a way I'm not really happy with. The rest is probably due to a much more strained schedule; I've gotten better at managing it lately, but on average, body and mind is much more weary than it used to be.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho trying to save Notsci his buddy
Right on time

This sort of thing is one of the stronger reasons I think oversoul is scum. He dismisses me because I'm a mislynch target and doesn't so much as attempt to interact with me or work with me; I can see him as town responding in a similar fashion to an approach that wasn't as serious, was more blatant bullshit, or was just different somehow but it didn't really feel great when it unfolded in the way it did.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is the one I'm really worried about. he talked about our usual town mind meld, but I've only had flickers of that. the strongest flicker was on day 1 when he was rethinking Anen. If anyone was going to get into my head and see where my vote came from, it would be him. And instead, he scumread me for it. It's sitting out there in the thread in a strange place with no obvious antecedent because the drivers were all internal. Anyway, he's been going back and forth with you over one vote most of the game day while all this crap is happening between notsci vs pie. I wanted more indication of where his thoughts on oversoul were headed, but maybe that was unrealistic given his thread presence.

Of all the major votes I've made this game (the ones I can remember, Anen, Cheetory, implosion, RC), I've done so because I've been significantly influenced by your direction and pushes. The major wagons I bucked against (Anen, Boon) also had a fair bit of your thought process behind them and I've seen my thought process in plenty of your pushes and push backs. Generally when this happens, we are on the same page in a good way, and your vote on me when I was feeling the most vulnerable sent up red flags, which I acted on at the time when I wouldn't act on it necessarily in different times and different places. "I wanted to see how you reacted" was not what I was expecting as an explanation at all; your later explanation was a lot closer to what I was expecting as a response.

I don't know what you mean by I've been going back and forth over one vote all day; I focused on the RC vote with Wicked earlier for a little while and didn't really focus on much else because I lacked the direction to really push or search anywhere else; I was thinking of where I wanted to go when I wasn't posting in the game and spending any time I had in thread trying to do one of the many many things I want to do in this thread.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's ffery push is scummy as fuck. What we're seeing here, folks, is cornered Nacho-scum flailing. He *convenienly* is ignoring the entire notsci/me shitstorm that's going on except for one weak as fuck sentence; he can't push me because he knows I'll run him into the ground if he even tries it after N1570, and he conveniently isn't going to push his partner notsci, so he's just making up a bunch of shit in order to *hopefully* get away with pushing someone elsewhere.

The only thing you're doing here is noticing that I dared mention ffery might possibly be scum and then overreacting based on that point and that point alone. I wouldn't feel afraid to push you as scum this game; there's nothing wrong with pushing a player as scum as long as you have a decent reason to do so and everyone understands it's a decent reason to so, and pushing you for being underwhelming or pushing you for pushing notsci would have been pretty reasonable things to do. And now that you acknowledge that notsci is probably town, I wouldn't just leave that gigantic clusterfuck alone as scum unless I had a partner or two in it. There. absolutely no reason for me not to jump in on that mislynch opportunity and push things along before you two inevitably towned to each other.

[Nachomamma8]

This Oversoul wagon is one of the most shit wagons I've ever seen in my whole entire life.

And also, don't say things Ile think this without actually reading the case against oversoul, it's not like I'm pulling things out of my ass.

[Nachomamma8]

In Tales of Vesperia when I an everyone else was reading you wrong and you thought there was a glimmer of ffery reading you correctly somewhere and faltering the like loss of an ally felt more real.

Tales of Vesperia was a game that was miles and miles away from my feeling then and my feeling now. its miles and miles away from how Ffery and I interact now, even if my play hasn't necessarily evolved in obvious ways since then.

[Nachomamma8]

And it reminded me of games where scum-you have pulled one townie out of the fire while pushng another townie into it.

This is very much how I try to play scumgames because it helps create allies to make up for the enemies I make when getting the mislynches I need. I don't think I've really been playing to get the allies I need this game and that is one strong sign that I'm town, but that's also something that I'm not really sure is obvious enough to be good selling point/I'm not sure how I'd play it differently as scum except what I mentioned before/ actually fight harder to lynch what I want to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho :/

(I'm going to reread through oversoul and reread through a town and scum game tonight just to get on some grounding, but oversoul knows damn well I wouldn't just investigate him because he told me to.)

Can we actually have a talk about oversoul before you kill me? I know you're working through him at your own pace and all that jazz but I'd like if you could let me know where I'm apparently going wrong here.

[Nachomamma8]

vote: Nacho

:/

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

I voted you because this game doesn't make any sense and I feel like it's because my reads are terrible. I've been trusting you and following you to some eextent but it's like I have a lump of ice in my stomach.

I voted you, hoping you're town and you'll show it in your reaction and you'll do what I can't seem to do which is solve this game.

Would it be less oversimplified if I said it was to make me town harder?

[Nachomamma8]

I feel like prior to today (and to some extent prior to my vote) you hadn't been doing this. You hadn't been working to get scumreads lynched.

Definitely haven't been. Scumreads haven't exactly come easy until now.

[Nachomamma8]

Combine that with not shit for time, and you don't really have a powder keg for aggressiveness and good shit.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho - I kinda want to lynch you right now. How do you feel about that?

Right now, I feel pretty good about it! I have no doubts that I'm gonna be lynched today, but I'm going down swinging and I'm not going down alone.

If I answered this question a couple days ago, my answer would feel be very very different!

[Nachomamma8]

If your intention was more Faraday-esque, then I'm not sure what to tell you? It's not a completely earth shaking misread or anything and I'm not gonna be mad at you or hurt when I'm mislynched.

[Nachomamma8]

I think so, because it was the internals - how I felt about the game state, and seeing another huge blow-up between pie and notsci, and seeing the oversoul replacement into the slot I most wanted to sort, and seeing the {you justifying your RC push to Wicked} thing becoming your main effort when you had time for this game that led voting you at that point.

And while this makes sense in context, it didn't really make sense at the time when I was overly worried about a wagon forming on me and when I was sort of waiting for your intervention to make things a lot simpler than they were proving.

[Nachomamma8]

It's the same excuse I've been making for nacho all game. Limited time, phone posting, etc. I've been hydraing with him pretty much constantly since spring, and I know he's got small bits of time here and there to spend on mafia.

I mean as you aren't pushing me just for lack of content or "Nacho is posting elsewhere", you're doing better than an overwhelming majority of people lately, and I don't mind having these conversations earlier if it helps in reading.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think about RC's play today?

I love it. RC's exchange that culminated in his "I feel so nakedly town" in particular is the type of posting he couldn't and wouldn't fake as scum as opposed to simply wouldn't fake as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I think you've seen how nervous I am to push people I'm friends with lest i be wrong about the read

Also I know this has probably and hopefully beaten into the thread by now but pie doesn't post the meltdown that comes after this post in thread as scum based on what comes literally right before it.

[Nachomamma8]

I can very much see pie's reaction here as being that of scum-caught-for-the-wrong-reasons.

And I'm sure this is going to become a hell of a lot more obvious tomorrow, but this is scummy as shit. Normal people don't look at an exchange like that and go "oh, this is scum for the wrong reasons!". Scum trying to fuel a fire absolutely do.

[Nachomamma8]

Tammy, in Vesperia you said the jazz hands were missing and he was being robotic.

Compared to this game, Vesperia had tons of jazz hands. That's one of the things that has been worrying me all along.

He is; you're right; he was.

Zodiac showed him being robotic, and he was town. And there was also another game I semi-followed that he was flat in as well and town.

I'm in the process of renegotiating the way I read him and what biases there are, but I'm also taking current games into account and trying to figure out what it means. If that makes sense.

But, if I was reading him on Tales of Vesperia model, I'd have tried to get him lynched day one.

This is why I was paranoid about both of you on day 1. I didn't want to spell it out, but I felt like if

I

was noticing the robotic thing, given that's not how I form reads on hm, it should have been much more evident to you.

I backed off, mostly because you gave me enough reason to think that's not a valid way to read hm now.

Yeah, I thought that might have been some of your concerns or at least some of my reticence to read him in the way I have.

We've played at my homesite and my old way of reading him held true, although the last game was behaviorally kinda a gimme, but still I read him very very easily as town in both games. Maybe the alt thing has something to do with it?

But what I'm left with if I'm deprived of tonal reading is people reading and that takes longer to feel anything about.

For me, right now, if you're scum here, you're scum with nacho. Basically because that's the only thing that makes sense to me for why he would be paranoid of you and discount your town tells, of which I'm pretty sure he's more adept than me at picking up. I don't believe that, it's just the one alternative I'm working with.

Oh wow I'm about to fall asleep but I also looked at the clock and I've almost been up for 24 hours. I'm going to ramble until I fall asleep! Øh Ill talk bout oversoul.

In 24 hour games, I'm either completely engaged or completely buried. This means that a lot of elements of my play are exaggerated a bit which imo makes me easier read and is probably why I've been having fun in those shorter formats more lately.

[Nachomamma8]

Which, in addition to being the exact same fucking shit Nacho pulled in the last game where he was scum against me and got me mislynched (and he's doing the same fucking thing again here, he's just being a lot more low-key about it and doesn't have me as his primary read),

As opposed to what you're townread oversoul was doing to me/notsci? Do you think that I'm going to get you mislynched with you as my bottom scum read?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: nacho

I'm just sheeping ffery now.

The cool kid thing to do is help Ffery sort me out, make your own way, be your own man. Would be lovely if you read what I've posted on oversoul and gave your opinion of it since you're more than capable and it is a very solid case.

[Nachomamma8]

*If* he is somehow town here, I will probably need to rethink everything about this game.

And, this is the reason I am probably getting mislynched today. Rethinking needs to be done about this game. A lot of it. Who do you think is the scum team if notscience isn't scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Because eventually, whether it takes you mislynching me or not, you're gonna get to a point in the game where you're looking for three scum in Oversoul/RC/implosion/Wicked and suddenly Oversoul doesn't look so town anymore. And if you actually listen to me about RC, neither will implosion or wicked.

[Nachomamma8]

It seems to read like you think pie is scum, but that's not what I'm getting from other recent posts.

That's not what I said or meant to say.

[Nachomamma8]

In fact, I meant to say the exact opposite, unless anyone here wants to argue that pieguy is a sociopath?

[Nachomamma8]

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

Why did you unvote here?

[Nachomamma8]

/mass claim over

ah, you naive fool...

Not really buying nacho's claim especially insofar as it can easily be a scum role. But we'll see what he has to say.

Implosion's weak interjection here looks exactly like his weak interjection after the pie posts. Fancy that.

[Nachomamma8]

Ok well I had gotten the impression RC was one of your strongest town reads. Why would you choose to start with RC (because others expressed concern) rather than go for a weaker town read like SS, pie or myself even? Or am I misreading the strength?

Felt right. I'm not sure where RC fell in my specific hierarchy of town reads at that point, but he wasn't near the top and thus more votable than others.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why I have to follow my set reads in order, though.

[Nachomamma8]

In case it wasn't clear, I'm more interested in lynching from the claims other than tammy's than I am from the VTs.

Actually, do you believe that implosion and I probably don't exist in this setup together?

If so, do you see why this probably wouldn't be the best plan of action?

[Nachomamma8]

There's a lot left to say!

[Nachomamma8]

It's almost like the day is just beginning

[Nachomamma8]

See here's my mentality fery-

Say we lynch oversoul and he flips town.

Tammy dies tonight.

Nacho would have to live in order to prove himself, and implosion won't shoot because if he shoots wrong it's game over.

So those lynches are off the table, woo.

We lynch so and so and they flip scum.

Nacho claims to have targetted implo and says hes lying. Who do I believe in this instance?

I don't live in order to "prove myself", implosion shoots me and if I don't die he's scum.
The great thing about having a vig in these sorts of situations is that if the vig is coexisting with someone he's not supposed to coexist with and he's not a lying scumfuck, he can just... shoot them.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Rolecop and Jailkeeper are our center roles, they make or break it.

I think 1 of the other 3 would make sense.

Okay.

So directed to all setup balance speculation and setup balance thoughts, I believe there are only two real takeaways.

1) There is not a Serial Killer in this game. Both Tammy and I could pick up on the SK whether he had investigative immunity or not (since this is a normal game), and putting two people who can investigate and find solo scum is absolutely brutal and cruel and unusual, even for Empire. This isn't even getting into interactions with Jailkeeper (and I don't know if SKs are even allowed to have strongmans or not), so, if implosion gets a shot off, he is 100% confirmed town of the no asking questions and no going back variety.

2) Five power roles in the game seems excessive. I'm reading Tammy/RC town to a level on individual play to the point where I'm happy saying that neither of those two are scum, which means that implosion is almost certainly scum. It would be hard for an all-town PR combination to actually work thanks to the dynamic multiple rolecops actually have with a scumteam (the more powerful a scumteam, the more powerful town rolecops become); the only only way that I can even sort of see something like that actually working is a roleblocker/ascetic scumteam, which I'm not even sure is normal, but even in that worst case scenario, we should still be able to recover with a scum lynch today.

I think the idea of lynching in the claimed PRs is stupid when the only valid suspicions within them are me/implosion and we have a very magical ability to definitively sort ourselves out during the night; the only way that it actually makes sense is if you think we are scum together, which is not something I've seen peddled around a whole bunch but feel free to correct me if I just haven't been paying attention.

[Nachomamma8]

Weird I thought it returnedmiller

huh.

lol

[Nachomamma8]

Weird I thought it returnedmiller

huh.

lol

[Nachomamma8]

I'm wondering why Nacho is overlooking stuff like this to call her potential scum because of her vote on him.

Is this what you were talking about?

At the time, it felt like a possibility despite the towntells that she'd dropped, and, being in a position where I was a train about to go underground and didn't really have the time to look through ffery's posts and remind myself of what towntells I like the best and see if the interactions around Anen and S-S were really good as I remembered, I jumped and prodded at her a bit. I was also sort of worried because oftentimes the same thing happens with ffery-scum that happens with you-scum; I write you off as town for a pretty good entrance, and then don't reanalyze my approach properly when we're still alive a couple days down the road, and ffery's response to what I felt was the same sort of struggle with wording and expressing myself (which is a problem when tired and hallucinating) that she saw first hand in Forest Fire, and it felt really unnatural to cut me loose at exactly the time when I would be the most vulnerable. Her initial response concerned me because I felt like response wouldn't be at all what she was expecting as scum, and the response seemed sort of awkward and like I had caught her off guard.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean uncharted territory

I don't think you've actually played a scum game (against me, at least) that expresses this sort of emotional vulnerability. Whenever you overplay your paranoia about me/ffery in the past or made it a centerpiece of your play, it's been horribly fake. Your successful scumgames also always seem to mimic the loud and in-your-face notsci that this game very clearly isn't.

[Nachomamma8]

The {1536, 1538, 1544} group implies that you voted him and then read through his posts, unless I'm reading it wrong. But 2464 doesn't seem to acknowledge that you voted him before reading through with the 'new lens' that you talked about.

I don't know if I've addressed this point or not, but what?
The bottom stuff wrt RC has nothing to do with me voting him.

[Nachomamma8]

so the first thing I want to address re: Oversoul is the way he claimed not-VT and then retracted it. there's an obvious question here that I think everyone is missing: given the situation he was in, why the fuck does scum-Oversoul bother retracting the PR claim at all? I think if he was scum here, he'd either go balls-deep and continue with the PR claim or retract it immediately, not fucking both. in fact, I think continuing with the PR claim would have been a *lot* more convenient for scum-him here; it'd at the very least give him a greater chance at getting out of the lynch (and, if uncontested, could potentially allow him to survive to endgame).

retracting it, on the other hand, essentially doesn't do anything besides make him look bad. seriously. what the fuck does scum-Oversoul have to gain by retracting it in the way he did? somebody (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, RC) please tell me because it doesn't make any sense and I still haven't seen a compelling reason for it anywhere.

I agree that it's the towniest thing that he's done and I can't say I can explain the motivation behind it well. However, I can't at all explain the town motivation behind it (not a little bit), and I think part of the confusing nature of it is based on how he obviously obviously came up with the plan after he claimed VT during the massclaim, thus it wasn't thought through very well as either alignment. I don't think it's more likely to be skewed towards town because I don't think Oversoul would be afraid to do weird things as scum, and I don't think it's more likely to be skewed towards town because of how little sense it makes.

I also don't make anything of him asking Tammy to rolecop him when he was in reality just a VT, for the obvious reason that he should theoretically just be able to kill Tammy anyway if he is scum here. I also think that due to him/Tammy apparently having a lot of experience with each other, he thought Tammy would see a potential VT result on him and pick up on what he was trying to do (that is, she would see him as clearly town for it as opposed to questioning why he lied). so the fact that he did that doesn't bug me. I also don't really agree that it was as misleading as a lot of people in this game seem to think it is - I had thought of the possibility that he was just VT fake claiming when it first came up (see: the first line of my setup spec post), and it appears some others had done the same.

I can't think of anyone in this world who I have that kind of relationship with where I would be able to go "here, let me fakeclaim a power role and have this person investigate me but they won't really investigate me because they know I'm town and fakeclaiming!", and I think anyone making that assumption of anyone else is unreasonable as hell except in extraordinary circumstances. My current working theory is that Oversoul's initial intention was to have Tammy investigate him overnight so that she wouldn't worry about his alignment during the day and then kill her overnight, but the real reason why this particular exchange is a concern instead of an "oh oversoul!" moment is that it seems like he's overcompensating with his interactions with Tammy. When someone reads you well through interacting with them, the next response after lurking and avoiding is overcompensating; it happens when I'm scum and overcompensating for tone with flowery language, and it used to be really prevalent in games with people I was afraid of where I would interact with them just a little *too* much and in places where it didn't make sense. It didn't make sense to draw Tammy in to bolster his gambit, but I have an idea of why I think he did it as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

outside of the claim, I thought the sheer level of conviction he had in response to his wagon read town. 2288 is one post in particular that makes me think this;

I have no idea how people can read posts like this and think it comes from a scum player.

This sort of thing is seriously, seriously overplaying it. Why do you think Oversoul can't go "all the scum must be on my wagon! look at them voting me!" as scum? Could you not fake that as scum being wagonned?

this is, quite literally, Nacho calling Oversoul scum because he got the timing of when implosion claimed wrong.

. . .

really?

Oversoul got the entire reason he was reading implosion as town completely wrong.
It wasn't that he got the timing wrong; his initial argument was that he was reading implosion as town because he claimed D1, with no pressure on him, when someone else was being run up and it would have been very very simple for him to get a mislynch. It's okay and natural to misremember details, sure; but when the foundation of a read on someone is something they don't remember at all, we have problems, especially when that read is a significant one.

I really, really don't understand what your problem with this point in particular is, and it's not like this is a "hey look at nacho-scum spreading bullshit and no one reading it!" type of point because, again, this isn't newbie 1493 or whatever the hell it is and we aren't playing with people who are snowed by lots of words and bravado, but you're approaching everything I write with the same mindset you approached me there and shutting me down everywhere because you're starting from Nacho!scum and moving from there which is exactly what you've done to notscience for pretty much the entire game.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't even know what to say about this because it makes absolutely 0 sense. the only point here I'm actually seeing is that Oversoul talked to implo in a way that suggested he wasn't scum reading him when he supposedly had a strong scum read on him, which in reality doesn't *actually* mean anything. it is flat-out wrong to assume that a town player has to push a scum read in every post they make directed towards him; people will often address people neutrally even if they are scum reading them. this is really just common sense and Nacho pushing otherwise is bullshit

Oversoul lists a bunch of reasons implosion would be scum if the one tell that pushed him towards town (claiming when not under pressure and when he could have mislynched someone else) didn't exist, which shows how integral the point is to his read on implosion, hence getting it wrong being weird.

[Nachomamma8]

the obvious conclusion re: this point is that Oversoul thought RC played his role in a way that was unconvincing, and thus that he was scum for it - which, surprise, is exactly what he fucking said. there is no contradiction here, and Nacho attempting to spin one out of nowhere is also bullshit

He thought the way RC played his role was unconvincing, but somehow had zero reasons for why RC's play of his role was unconvincing.

"Miller being a role scum can play preemptively" has absolutely nothing at all to do with how RC played his role. RC's death miller sidetrack doesn't really have anything to do with how he played his role, but if that was Oversoul's angle, it was weak and reasonless.

I hated this angle in general because rather than actually pointing out what was manipulative or atrocious about the not-VT claim or analyzing the motivation behind it (spoiler: he can't), he handwave dismisses it. it also fails to take into account what Oversoul actually said in the game thread: that he was attempting to draw a NK, and that part of this was trying to force a Tammy investigation on him, w hich is entirely pointless if he claims what his role specifically is. there is also that simply claiming not-VT is the most reasonable option from a town POV because if you claim a specific PR you risk outing an *actual* PR and getting yourself lynched, yet he tries to spin it like Oversoul has to claim it in that way as a result of him saying he'd lynch any other PR claim - never mind the fact that the exact same thing should theoretically hold for a blanket non-VT claim the exact same way it would for a specific PR claim.

I'm sorry, I really don't know what point you're trying to make here?

I didn't expand into the not-VT claim at the time because time was something he didn't have.

If you're trying to argue that the way Oversoul went about drawing a NK made sense, then I'd argue that it'd make much more sense to claim a protective role and then fake a game-winning plan, or something along those lines. I don't know why forcing Tammy's investigative on him was key in his plan? I don't know why he'd be afraid of outing actual PRs when massclaim was over? IIRC, I think I had a theory about Oversoul retracting his PR claim because he noticed my "lynch all other PR claims" statement and figured out what it meant, but that theory isn't particularly important to me. I guess I'll look back to see what you're talking about, but this point could use better clarification.

[Nachomamma8]

RC makes a huge case on Vinkah's slot, and Nacho forgets about the RC scum read entirely and goes to push Vinkah along with him. DOES ANYONE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

Miller claim?
Really town play around miller claim?
You later say it makes sense that this happened but then you talk to notscience about how this point is great, so ?

[Nachomamma8]

which is reasonable, but I still think the random read flop on Vinkah for no reason until after Oversoul came into the game is a huge issue.

I've been ignoring Vinkah for 2? days based on a townish early entry and a townread from ffery.
You saw the pool that I was working with.
Is it

really

that much of a surprise that I turned to Vinkah?
If you lynch me and I flip town, keeping in mind that I have a very very very very very strong townread on RC, where are you going to turn?

[Nachomamma8]

/whistle

That is me calling a not-VT claim scummy, yes.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it makes sense he thought he'd get recognized as town for it.

I think it does make sense he thought he'd get recognized as town for it.
And I think that's why he did it.

[Nachomamma8]

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

Is it weird that I still really don't understand why?
I mean I know we talked about the whole RC switch, but is that it?

You don't think the points I've brought up on Oversoul are more compelling in any way?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know why he's prompting me to get my hands dirty when reading him given that knowledge.

It's time to take the training wheels off and ride that bike, notty. You're capable and reading and understanding motivation, you've seen me play scum a lot of different ways, and you've also succeeded in Saki where plenty of others failed.

[Nachomamma8]

Plus it's just really boring to have people who actually know me go "I can't read Nacho so I won't even try!". Part of what makes this game fun is that part where you read people and they read you

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why I have to follow my set reads in order, though.

That's what I do when I'm confused (like I have been for most of this game).

Maybe that's why I don't fully understand your approach. Can you honestly tell me that, as confused town, you refer to what your other townreads think?

Yes?

[Nachomamma8]

I guess thinking about it on another level the only way it reasonably makes sense is if he wanted to claim backup rolecop as a springboard

to getting me mislynched, since he figured that we'd just auto-lynch from VT claims+RC with the three claimed power roles seeming like a very reasonable setup.

I guess I could actually see that making sense.

The obvious flaw in this plan from scum!Nacho are all of those bullets you supposedly have.

Nacho: since you didn't claim your role during the massclaim, did it ever cross your mind that you'd be scrutinized for that? Did you think to drop some kind of crumb so that we would know that you aren't just making up the claim post-massclaim because it's scumvenient? Did you think that we would just believe you when you claimed, and so didn't feel the need? Or did you just not even consider it?

Sure it did! I didn't really feel the need because the main line I expecting was "lying is scummy!!!" and that's a ridiculously bad line to push and thus easy to defend against.

And then there's that evil voice in the back of my head. It says that RC is playing a really convincingly town game and that I should be scumreading him for things like the "I'm nakedly town right now" post, even though I'm heavily townreading him for it. And then I think about his claim and a full look at the surrounding shit and I just can't see him as scum. And I'm going to be so goddamn pissed if he's scum. Like if he's scum it essentially breaks everything that I use to read people in mafia. If he's scum he's outplaying me right now really goddamn hard and that's annoying. But god this player list is so small and there are so many scum. And I still just cannot see him as scum. argh.

The way you waffle around this read really really isn't natural.
Like at all.

I can see why you *might* think it does ("oh implosion is paranoid and probably town! yay!"), but I really don't like this public waffling over someone when you really don't have reasons to waffle over them and you continuously acknowledge it in your waffling. If you have random doubts on him, okay that's fine, but expressing doubts like "what if he's scum for that thing I'm townreading him for???" just read like a townread grab.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not really sure what my scumgame would look like after the year-ish long hiatus I took. I was gonna say I don't think it would look like this but aspects of it probably would, like the focusing on core townreads/waffling on others part, which is mostly because I've trained myself to do that as scum because I always wind up doing it as town. But I think my thought processes right now are not things that I would be able to fake here as scum.

holy shit does this look familiar
if the mtgs isos weren't utter shit, there's a great quote of me in response to tammy when she asks me why i'm not scum (or maybe vi or something) and i think i said almost these exact words with different specifics.
I said it because I couldn't really point to actions in my play that made me town/scum and I thought that sort of partial honesty (I could fake everything I've done here as scum except for unmentioned subtleties) would look good. Tammy, do you remember that?

[Nachomamma8]

the only way I can see Oversoul making any sense as scum is if he's being bussed here

... which, now that I think about it, actually seems to make a lot of sense and would explain why it's so damn hard to get any scum reads in this game. although it'd probably imply Nacho is scum anyway.

[Nachomamma8]

Huh?
His crumb was from Day 1, that is referencing the last sentence. My opinion/wanting him to be the lynch unless he has a baller claim was real time talk on this day. When I read through I saw his baller claim.

oh this makes sense

[Nachomamma8]

Oversoul, pieguy, what are your reads?

[Nachomamma8]

Like what is your #1 scumteam and why?
Wicked, same to you.

[Nachomamma8]

I've done most of the catching up I need to do today. The only real work I have left to do is look into Wicked some more, but something that seems weird to me is that Wicked actually let Oversoul get away with the VT-NotVT-VT claiming business and didn't drive him into the ground after that; he seems like the type who would flip the fuck out about something like that, but again, might be being judgmental again.

Implosion screams transparently scum to me lately. There's the claim in and of itself which seems town but then everything around that is garbage and everything he's posted today is even worse. I think that implosion's shot failing to go through is what will essentially break the game; I really can't think of scum outside of Wicked/Implosion/Oversoul without some serious, serious, serious mental gymnastics.

[Nachomamma8]

Am I allowed to answer? It will be later tonight once I get home, but.

Sure.

[Nachomamma8]

And then suddenly my push on you gets more aggressive and you're confident that I'm scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you know how surprised I am?

[Nachomamma8]

<---- this surprised

[Nachomamma8]

yeah i'm sure there's a doctor on a mafia team to counter a two-shot vig while there's also a town jailkeeper

[Nachomamma8]

1) You having pushed this angle throughout the entire day even throughout my own townreading you, even when I'm your primary target to be pushing, which completely ignores the fact that I wouldn't shoot you since you were a townread.
2) Actually I remember thinking Nacho wouldn't possibly beg to be shot so strongly as scum earlier, but now that I take more than three seconds to look at it, it reeks of scum with a doctor on their team wanting to set up fake scumcred on me by forcing me to shoot him and forcing that shot to fail.
3) The above is compounded by the fact that so many people have speculated about a mafia doctor, and Nacho has engaged in setup speculation and made no mention whatsoever of those suspicions. I suppose if he thinks I'm scum there isn't a doctor most likely; however, those allegations are still relevant because it means his attempt to set up "i die tonight or implosion dies tomorrow" is flawed.

1) I expected you were townreading me to get me to drop the read. I'm not surprised you're scumreading me now that it's obvious that isn't going to happen.
2) Giving a false innocent to the rolecop doesn't really make sense unless there's two, which, um. It doesn't make sense because a rolecop is only going to get a true innocent on the miller and one guilty on the scumteam most likely.
3) They're dumb speculations that I don't remember seeing. If you ARE town and neither of us are lynched today, and scum somehow have a doctor, then the setup is really dumb but it's not like we don't have a fighting chance anymore. You can also conceivably shoot outside of me and still confirm yourself as town and me as very likely scum, I can still fight the next lynch on me because there will still likely be people alive who read me and I don't like losing because of bullshit, etc.

[Nachomamma8]

That's a really damn unbelievable expectation for a player list like this to go LaL and not scrutinize the claim on a deeper level than that.

That's the only reason why a pre-massclaim crumb would have been necessary.

If someone had asked me why I wasn't scum directly then I'd have given a different response than that. That post was a response to ffery saying she found everything I posted scummy; it wasn't a direct question.

I don't understand the distinction at all, but let's play:
Why aren't you scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Giving a false innocent to the rolecop doesn't really make sense unless there's two, which, um.

Oh my god. I mentioned a game I played that had recently completed that had a town rolecop + a scum doctor + a 2-shot vig (note: no backup rolecop, and there was one mafia member who would have essentially been a guilty, third was a goon). Your response to that post was to call it useless. Your setup spec is absolute garbage.

I thought you meant mafia watcher, not mafia doctor.
What was the game?

[Nachomamma8]

Not even vaguely. There's a fucking reason for massclaim: it 1 allows setup spec to actually work since everyone has claimed, and 2 locks scum into their fakeclaims. There's a goddamn reason beyond just "they lied" to find someone scummy if they change their claim post-massclaim, and crumbing the role beforehand would massively mitigate that concern since town would know it's not just being made up on the spot.

Will get to the other question next post because it's going to be a bit more detailed.

I usually have fakeclaims in mind before town massclaims, not after.
Didn't really think it would be very beneficial for me to drop a crumb at that point.

[Nachomamma8]

Hmmm.

[Nachomamma8]

You see how it makes sense to put in a false innocent for a game where rolecop is a secondary investigative role but not where rolecop is the *only* investigative role, right?

[Nachomamma8]

Implosion is sounding more town to me today than earlier. The thought processes and town come off townish.

I agree with this, but I've also reached a point where I strongly feel implosion will sort himself out overnight with bullets or no bullets and want to deal with him then.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you reading her as town now then?

Yeah, I am.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, it didn't look to me like the sort of struggle with words and expression you had in the forest fire game. In that game, you had a strong read (which turned out to be correct!), even though you couldn't explain it in a way that I could convey on your behalf. here, it looked more like a lack of good reads than a lack of expression of reads. I can see places here and there where could be difficult getting your thoughts into words. The RC read change fits that narrative, though I really didn't have a problem with your day 2 RC read at the time. I was second guessing my read at that point and wondering if I'd put too much faith in what is actually a pretty low-data meta read of a player whose scum game is very well respected from what I've gathered.

This makes sense.
The point I thought that you would be able to translate in particular was approaching reading him in a different way and that effecting the read; I figured that you of all people would understand the concept of changing lenses while people who didn't know me well probably wouldn't and there was no way in hell that I would be able to put the concept into anything but Nacho-speak with my mind in the state that it was in.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure how to apply that to implosion.

I could see implosion-scum thinking the same way as me-scum at that point; he very much seemed like the self-aware type, and I find my issue as scum being self-aware is knowing just how faked all of this is, how there's nothing that really looks close to the stuff I do as town, and hence the weird "well I don't know, I probably could have faked everything but this specific thought process" while as town it's more like "this and this and this and this and this and this...". His angry followup looked a lot better though, so I could be completely off base with this.

[Nachomamma8]

You see how it makes sense to put in a false innocent for a game where rolecop is a secondary investigative role but not where rolecop is the *only* investigative role, right?

What's the false innocent you're talking about?

Mafia Doctor.
You investigate them, get back doctor, you're like "oh hey a doctor" and thus assume they're probably town even though they are dirty dirty scumbags.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to reread him tonight and see if this sense that he could be town stands up to another look.

Did you end up doing this?

[Nachomamma8]

Both. If you were town you wouldnt be able to reveal anyway and if you were scum you would have to gamble. If Nacho is town this is entirely the play he should have done, but you know he's scum.

Except that she's already extraordinarily town and all that does is unnecessarily out me a a power role?

[Nachomamma8]

So yeah, I don't have a strong case against you for being scum. I just think your RC read change is hard to believe.

This is lame.
I might have more to say about this later.

[Nachomamma8]

can you walk me through what your thought process here was?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be honest, I'm starting to get bored with this day/game. That has nothing to do with my Oversoul vote (I would have gladly kept my vote Nacho for another day or two). But I do feel like I'm starting to mentally detach from this game, you guys are probably noticing it, and that is why. I can explain this feeling if anyone cares/wants to know.

AMEN

i'm done

[Nachomamma8]

i was gonna try to do things but nope

and i think the reason vinkah didn't replace out of upick was because no one was doing shit in that game, not based on alignment

[Nachomamma8]

like that was quite possibly the slowest game i've ever experienced in my life

[Nachomamma8]

what a terrifying endgame