Mini 1742: game over

[ICEninja]

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

[ICEninja]

Jeez this activity level. Alright looks like I've already got some catching to do the day after the game started. Expect some serious content from me today.

[ICEninja]

Alright so page 1 starts off with a bang. There are a few innocent RVS remarks, and talah goes hard, presumably to spark discussion early, which prompts Wickan's vote.

As I've stated, I don't like Wickan's vote because while talah looks to be sparking discussion, Wickan seems to find sparking discussion scummy. He responded to my vote saying:

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

While I somewhat understand this mindset, it seems a bit weak.

The back and forward between talah and Frozen gives me a town on town vibe, but I'm not sure. Frozen is kind of all over the place and seems difficult to read. As of right now talah definitely feels like he is posting with the most pro-town mindset, actively looking to expose scum.

The thing that's the most interesting to me is how Wickan's wagon got going hard super fast, to L-1. Johnny's push makes total sense and I like his vote, but Taly and Frozen Angel hopped on SUPER fast. The way the wagon stormed ahead really feels like scum got opportunistic and hopped on, and it really looks like either Taly or Frozen. Taly's post 66 looks like scum realizing this and backing out before getting caught too soon. That combined with Frozen seeming more likely town than scum in the 1v1 with talah means Taly is probscum.

Unvote, vote Taly

.

[ICEninja]

I apologize for the large number of quotes. There were many small things that needed responding to.

Wickan's wagon NEVER reached L-1. It was at L-2. It's 6 to lynch. Good start off to showing us to how much attention you're paying.

You are correct, my miscount. There are 10 people in this game. Where is ABR?

If you read 53 - then you would know that I had - in part - some of my own reasoning on jumping onto Wickan's wagon.

This doesn't dispute the fact that the timing of your vote was opportunistic.

Oh look. Dichotomies. Since you want to say that one must be scum -

Dichotomies...are you sure you understand what that word means? You also twist my words pretty hard. Underlined for emphasis:

Since you want to say that

one must be

scum -

The way the wagon stormed ahead

really feels like

scum got opportunistic and hopped on

Definitely feels like you're trying to misrepresent my point here. I never said that one or the other has to be scum, and I never said only one of you could be scum. I was explaining my line of reasoning for voting you as opposed to the other person who could have potentially been the opportunistic scum to jump on a wagon.

Apparently I'm scum for decelerating the wagon but it's super scummy of how much speed it obtained?

Also responding to Wickan here

. It reads to me like you realized how fast this wagon formed on someone and removed your vote because keeping your vote there would make you look bad if he flips town (and if you're scum you probably know he would).

Actually another possible theory I just had. Based on this...

People with night talk will have 72 hours to get accustomed to another.

it looks like scum have 3 days of daytalk?

Mod, can you confirm that this means scum have 72 hours of day talk during D1?

With that in mind, it looks like these two could even be scum buddies with Wickan saying, via daytalk, "whoa dude don't bus me this early in the game I'm L-2". That explains the unvote just as well as Taly realizing the vote was dangerous to make as scum.

[ICEninja]

Did you think I was in significant danger of being lynched?

On page 3? Absolutely not. If the wagon had continued and you put to L-1 on page 8, without Taly having a good place to move his vote to? I can absolutely see that.

I'm being called opportunistic for my jump on Wickan's wagon.

Now apparently - my unvote is weird, too?

Yes. It looks like you felt you made a mistake with your vote, then unvoted.

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell

This is very possible. A quick check of his posts show that he hasn't posted in his other game(s) since Friday, and this game started yesterday. If he had posted elsewhere I would agree with you completely, but not posting anywhere on the site during a weekend is kind of null-ish IMO.

And FA's wasn't? Because you did say that the speed of Wickan's wagon was fast given that FA and I voted.

FA's was equally opportunistic. I gave reasoning why I find FA to be less likely scum than you, ergo I voted you. That being said, I really should do a onceover of her. Memo to self.

Plus, did you not read my post links? I already stated before that I was considering the Wickan wagon - even before John prompted to put the vote there.

Yet you stayed with your RVS vote until there was a wagon. Ergo, my accusation of opportunism.

Oh... So now you're referring back to that "scum" - not singularly saying that I'm probably scum versus FA who looked more town, right?

I can't vote both of you. I picked which fish to chase. Though as I said above, both of you merit some deeper investigation.

To be fair, I still am suspicious of Wickan. He was my original vote, after all, but Taly jumping on him made you seem more likely to be scum until I remembered that tidbit suggesting night talk. As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The one nagging feeling I have about Taly right now is that he hasn't voted me. Scum Taly had ample opportunity to drop a safe vote on me during this whole argument but hasn't.

-------------

Regarding Wickan/RC/Titus, I read RC's townread of FA on page 2 as joking at first due to the heart, but after a re-read I feel like I probably shouldn't have based on his post 70 giving a reason for the FA townread. This gives Titus and Wickan more credibility, and means I might need to re-evaluate some of my reads.

I still feel like talah reads pro-town, and I like Johnny's aggression but I need to go through everything again when I have time with the mindset that RC was indeed voting a townread, which could impact my read of Wickan and Johnny both. Also need to spend more time analyzing Frozen Angel.

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

[ICEninja]

So a quick post about P5 before I do a more thorough combing through of certain early interactions:

As Wickan notes, Taly's 110 is filled with inconsistencies. However, the actual TONE of the post comes off exactly how mine do when I'm getting railed by someone as town for reasons I feel are absurd. My biggest issue is the countless number of times Taly said "this isn't reading as town", then bolds that it is a possibility he's reading me as misguided town. I'm somewhat torn about Taly now.

Then Wickan says this:

The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum.

One of the big hallmarks of scum play is they so frequently admit things are possible, or that something makes sense for them as scum, only to brush it off in the next sentence. Town has

absolutely no business

saying this at all because if you already KNOW you're town then that thought wouldn't even enter your head, let alone "confuse" you enough to post it.

I legitimately feel like this was a substantial scum slip, as it shows insight in to a thought process that someone with a town role PM simply wouldn't have had.

A scum flip here would be extremely telling in regards to Taly too.

Unvote, Vote Wickan

. This should be L-2.

[ICEninja]

Alright so a few things jumped out at me during my re-read. Frozen Angel in post 16 claims that calling someone a confirmed mayor was just spam. I don't really understand this. Can someone explain the joke? This whole interaction feels really weird to me.

Next, talah goes hard. Really hard.

Yeah I'd lynch you at this point.

That is page 1, saying he'd be fine actually lynching someone "at this point". Wow. Then:

I would *definitely* lynch you right now.

This is page 2. Shortly after he states that he hasn't joked about anything.

Taleh, had I put her to L-1 on page 2 would you have announced intent to hammer? I definitely approve of pressure early on but this is seriously over the top.

I've discussed my thoughts on Taly's Wickan vote, but I haven't said too much about FA's. FA pretty clearly voted for pressure, and Taly's unvote alleviated pressure. I'm having a really hard time suspecting FA for the vote though simply on account of Wickan looking so damn scummy right now, and Taly looking to have a higher likelihood of being a scum buddy. Additionally, I missed the first time around when Johnny actually pointed out to Taly that his vote on Wickan seemed "too easy", shortly before Taly's unvote. This strengthens my initial suspicion which has been weakened by other evidence. I think I'm just going to have to shelf that thought for now, because there are more interesting things actually.

So this interesting tidbit from Titus:

This Wickan wagon is crap.

RC is voting someone who she has a townread on and didn't move the vote. Wicked points this out and votes RC.

Um, no. This never actually happened. Wick

an

hadn't yet pointed this out. In fact, I can't find ANY mention of Wickan saying ANYTHING about Cowbells until well after the vote, and after Titus comes in and states why Wickan voted, despite Wickan not having actually said anything about this.

Am I missing something there? This is triggering some SERIOUS daytalk paranoia. Then Wickan comes in during post 77 and states that the things RC did to merit him voting her are "unhelpful and anti-town", though no mention of being scummy.

A side note, can we please not have 2 people with the same LoL character avatar, when we already have players who have names that are easy to mix up?

[ICEninja]

Oh also, ABR is now posting in other games but hasn't yet read this one. He's quickly climbing up my scumlist.

[ICEninja]

Simple Plan hasn't posted in any other game since his random vote, and while ABR has posted elsewhere, it's almost exclusively one-liners. Maybe it is a little hasty to be jumping on the lurker hunting mindset, but we DO have over 5 pages of heavy activity to discuss already, sans 20% of the players.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,
-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),
-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

[ICEninja]

Oops sorry.

Weird behavior can be scummy. Town behavior, as a rule of thumb, is easier to follow. Scum have to deal with cognitive dissonance, which is one of the things I look for when I scum hunt. They're doing things they actively know are wrong, which often causes their cases to read as, well, weird. This doesn't mean all weird behavior is scummy because some people are just weird.

Lurking can be scummy, because it actively benefits scum more than it benefits town. That being said, there are plenty of other reasons (life) to lurk.

I don't think the daytalk and lurking are relevant to each other at all, that was Taly's thing. I think daytalk makes Titus and Wickan being on the same page look a lot more scummy than ABR or SP not posting much of anything.

[ICEninja]

Titus and RC are being scummy.

Wrong. I say that as town if someone jumps on me for a personality quirk.

You quoted me, but I didn't say anything about you in that entire quote. What do you supposedly say as town?

You then quote yourself, which I've read repeatedly and not found sense in the post. You're also defending Wickan again. Calling the Wickan/Titus scum pair is almost too obvious to be true at this point.

RC is pinging my scumdar for attempting to enforce his own meta. When I'm scum I always try to point out all the things I do as a specific alignment as a defense. It's a lousy defense because RC could actively be attempting to mimic his town meta in a game where many people are familiar with his play. Town RC would just be town RC and figure people would townread him because people know his meta.

[ICEninja]

I can understand why someone would be scum reading you this game.

[ICEninja]

I can't. Why don't you fill me in?

I personally find it suspicious that you're defending yourself with "But this isn't what I do as scum!". It's the perfect thing for scum to say when they're going out of their way to mimic their own town meta in a game full of players that are familiar with you. I've already said this.

You're also getting huffy that people aren't recognizing what town you does, precisely. It stands to reason that you might not be actually town, and are only mimicking your town meta. You're definitely not the scummiest player here, though. Only slightly leaning.

I say what your alleged scu slip against Wicked is.

So as town, you have the mindset of "the only way his action makes sense is if we're scum together"..? That just doesn't seem possible to me. How would that thought even make sense to you if you have a town role PM and know beyond any doubt that this situation isn't feasible, and then post about said train of thought?

I'm not sure what the point of your question is to be honest. Pretty straighforward unless you actually think my intent was to somehow speedlynch.

You presented yourself as if you were interested in a speedlynch. You have still yet to unvote and are continuing to say that the player you originally stated this about is scum.

It makes me wonder if you weren't legitimately interested in a speedlynch.

People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Oh get over yourself, I was the only one doing that, and apparently I had you so worked up by that you couldn't scum hunt. Don't make it in to something it wasn't.

I feel like we've hit a wall and won't get through it til Al talks, Titus can come up with reasons that make sense outside her oh-so-convincing "I know I'm town" perspective, or more people agree on lynching Wickan. Accurate?

I'm good on lynching Wickan. He's miles ahead of second most scummy in this game, and his scum flip would additionally be quite helpful to finding the next scum. At the moment Titus is probably the only other player I'll be willing to vote.

[ICEninja]

It's the same as recognizing that an action you've taken was scummy even though you know you aren't scum.

It's vastly easier to recognize an action you've taken was scummy when you're scum, though.

[ICEninja]

I can see a weird connection between titus - wicon. or its just me being paranoid?

Haven't I been saying this?

[ICEninja]

So what do we do about ABR? On one hand he's useless-lurking, but on the other it doesn't seem like the guy tends to contribute all that much ever. I suppose I could be content lynching him, but it feels like more of a policy lynch than lynching someone because they're probscum (like Wickan is).

[ICEninja]

RC defended her "I'm not scum for using meta defense" with a meta defense.

I don't care that I don't know you, I don't use meta. You're being slightly scummy by pushing what you do and don't do as scum in

other

games because

you could very well be ACTIVELY playing differently to fit what is expected of you based on your meta

in

this

game.

It's a classic poker strategy, and you're good enough at this game to pull something like that off.

I'm not saying this

makes

you scum, but you are using a strategy that is more helpful for scum to use than town. You're also being alignment-null irritating by using a meta defense to try to convince me that using meta defense isn't scummy, and you continue to try to 1v1 me instead of scum hunting while simultaneously complaining that defending yourself is preventing you from scum hunting. If you're town, then start finding scum.

--------------

The walls of text in this game are demotivating me. Let's make a lynch happen.

This is basically what happened the last game we played together, and you dipped. If you don't play this game, this'll be the last one we play together.

[ICEninja]

Whoa a lot happened in a short time.

Why, are you quitting mafiascum?

I'll quit joining games you're in.

So what you're saying here is: In having a townish intention and follow-through to an RVS wagon - talah is scummy and might have been wanting a speedlynch for then townishly pushing on and interpreting reactions from, his random wagon target.

You just used extremely strong language, is all. I do the same thing, I just don't ever say I'm happy with lynching someone on page 2. You were obviously trying to draw attention to yourself, so it wasn't explicitly scummy, just over the top.

Also, talah, yes I do have an agenda. I want to find scum. I'm not going to do that if I don't press in on things I find eyebrow-raising, like your declaration of a wagon being lynchworthy on page 2. Should I instead adopt a strategy where I completely ignore a player that gives me town vibes early on? I've done that and lost games because scum tricked me in to holding a town read too long.

Plus, I rarely hear town say something like:

"Oh, get over yourself"

That is alignment-neutral irritation. You tried to come off as some martyr because town was pushing you for this reason and that and woe is me and it just annoyed me. I pressured you early to see where it would go.

Eckh.... Association tells aren't bad D1, but Ice has relied a bit on those on his reads which feels like he's creating a little world that revolves around who needs to be lynched rather than looking at his reads in an individual light. If that's understandable.

I feel like this is also either a misrepresentation of my views or a demonstration that you don't understand them. I've clearly stated more than once that Wickan is, by far, the scummiest player in this game.

Also

, his scum flip will give information. There's a reason I'm NOT voting Titus, because without any flips, my associative tell is useless. You can bet that'll change day 2 if we get the relevant information.

Titus, Taly has tons of content to read but I'm pretty neutral on him. Do you seriously think every player should either be town or scum reading EVERY PLAYER on day 1?

------------

Wickan, we aren't lynching Taly today. He isn't the townest player in the game or anything, but seriously, there are like 5 better lynches than him.

------------

Regarding my last game with ARB where he basically posted like he is now then ditched, I

think

he was town. Based on what others have said, he does this as either alignment though.

I'm leaning slightly scum on ABR, since while he could be disinterested in the game, town has no benefit to lying about that and lurking.

[ICEninja]

So...you have strong feelings on every non ABR and SP player on day 1 with zero flips?

Yeah...no.

[ICEninja]

Vote me Ice. If you think I am so terrible. Come on.

Wickan didn't do the thing you're giving him a town read for. You're actively defending him anyway, pushing someone because they left their RVS vote after developing a townread, and having "shit reasons" for voting someone. Forgive me if I don't do what you tell me to.

You play what, one game a year?

I did stop for 2 years, but I'm usually in 1-2 games at a time with minimal break between.

Aaaand you vote me. Glad to know you're voting for the person who calls you out instead of who you think is scum.

The thing that makes me think is - you put out a theory concerning that Wickan and I are scumpair,

Notice that I haven't brought that theory up in a while. In fact, my current theory is that if Wickan is scum, you confused him with your unvote; his post 113 could also read as "but Taly isn't my scumbuddy so it was confusing".

The 1v1 with Taly and Titus is interesting. Right now Taly is bringing up good points and Titus is responding mostly with "haha lol you're bad". Right after Titus switched his vote to me because it looks like he could push my wagon instead of RC whom he hasn't given very compelling reasons for voting.

Defending Wickan based on something that never happened, Attacks my case with weird reasoning, Chainsaw defends by voting me, someone is certainly VERY nervous of town finding Wickan's alignment, because he knows just how damning this is.

I still prefer a WickanWagon, but I could get behind lynching Titus today.

[ICEninja]

Titus, I just realized I've been referring to you as "he". My bad, I should know better since we've played together before.

ICE: if you knew for a fact that I was town, would you still find Titus scummy at all? Your suspicion of Titus seems mostly (though not completely) dependent on his defense of me.

2 days ago I'd say no, you being town would severely reduce suspicion of Titus. Lately, Titus has seemed more scummy on her own.

VOTE: Wicked

Um, there's nobody in this game by that name.

Holy hell, that's some intense buddying. I'm inclined to be suspicious but it almost seems too blatant; personally as scum I try to be more subtle about my buddying.

This game is starting to stall. We have a severely divided town with a handful of people feeling very strongly about something, but very little general consensus. Simple Plan has, for all intents and purposes, not yet posted in this game. Something has to give.

Someone give me a short case of why I should vote someone other than Titus or Wickan, because right now I don't see myself voting anyone else nor does it look like I'll be able to convince 6 people to vote for Wickan.

Mod, I only count 3 voting for Wickan

.

[ICEninja]

Yeah this day is getting pointless. Things are being said over and over again. A couple of people have attempted to interact with me, but most of it just looks like repeated stuff, rehashing, etc. that's starting to drown us in circular logic. I'm finding it harder and harder to not skim at this point.

I need a show of hands.

Everyone, please

. Who ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to vote Wickan today? Who, regardless of it being your preference or not, is

at least

ALRIGHT seeing Wickan lynched today? My vote has been parked on this dude for well over 10 pages now and I've got a pretty strong read for a day 1 read.

I'm fine voting Titus if I can't get a few more votes on Wickan. Barring those two, I'm not particularly happy with any lynch, but in order to avoid a NL I'd vote Simple Plan, ABR, maybe FA? I'm townreading talah and Johnny, and leaning town on RC and Taly.

[ICEninja]

Wait so...why is ABR voting me again? I just went through his ISO and he seemed pissed that I called him out for being a non-presence and voted me. He's since called RC scummy repeatedly, and never once pointed out anything scummy about me at all.

I swear this feels more like a "fuck you" vote than a "you're scum" vote, and I can't think of a possible town motivation to do that.

PEdit: I've stated repeatedly that I'm not particularly interested in lynching anyone other than Wickan or Titus. I'm also having an extremely difficult time building a wagon on Wickan, despite several other players being likewise convinced he's scum.

[ICEninja]

ABR finds me scummy because I pinged a lurker. It's conceivably possible that I've done that in literally every single 30-something games I've played in. How the HELL is that alignment indicative at ALL?

Ice says someone make a case. Wickan is saying here I am deal with it.

Nice cherry picking, the same post I say that I don't see myself voting for anyone other than you or Wickan.

Jeez the votes on me are AWFUL. ARB literally has no reason to vote me, Titus seems to be scum reading me because he hates my Wickan vote (STILL NEVER ADDRESSED THE FACT THAT HE TOWNREAD WICKAN FOR SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN), and talah sheeps a vote on me despite not being particularly convinced I'm scum. Yikes, if there isn't scum on my wagon then town has NO chance of winning this game.

Look at his ISO. It's focused exclusively on breaking up our townreads and begging others for cases for the most part.

I don't even know how to respond to that because it's so blatantly false. Holy shit.

I'm a little confused about how ASP's repetition of talah's read on ABR (despite being REMARKABLY similar in wording) indicates scum more than lazy. Though I will say his comments prepping himself for voting me before actually reading me is scummy.

[ICEninja]

Wait so...

I didn't say I was town reading you. I didn't say I was agreeing with people who explicitly did. I said I was agreeing that I wasn't voting you today, which seems to mirror EVERYBODY because the last VC with a vote on you was on page two. You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm not town reading you, but I refuse to vote you. If that some way of leaving yourself open for voting talah later?

So we need what, 2 more votes on Wickan to get this travesty of a day over with? I gotta say ABR isn't who I expected to win over, but I'll take it.

[ICEninja]

Well ABR has stated that he finds Wickan scummy on condition that I'm not scum. It does make me a touch nervous that ABR-scum realized he couldn't get 6 votes on me and went for the easier lynch, but not enough to reconsider Wickan being sum.

[ICEninja]

Interesting catch, Taly.

Toss Simple Plan behind Wickan and Titus on my "good to lynch today" pile.

I don't see enough support for a Titus wagon, which is fine because I prefer Wickan anyway. Titus, at the moment, is a better lynch than Simple Plan in my eyes though.

Don't expect to see my vote anywhere else though today.

[ICEninja]

I'm still fine with a Titus lynch, and I will be 100% with you guys for pushing Titus tomorrow after Wickan flips scum.

I'm cool giving Simple Plan another day or two to catch up but if he doesn't after that I'm not sure he ever will, which is super unhelpful to town. He's on the scummy side too (not in my top 2, but leaning scum) so I wouldn't be sad to see him lynched, but I'll probably be less interested in that until I've seen Wickan and Titus buried. If the game isn't over at that point, We'll theoretically have more content from him which may or may not prove helpful.

[ICEninja]

IF for some reason I'm wrong about Wickan, part of my case on you will be based on incorrect premises. If that does indeed happen I'll be somewhat more inclined to hear you out regarding Simple Plan, whom I will admit isn't currently looking particularly town.

[ICEninja]

I don't see the harm in giving SP another day to catch up before we hammer.

[ICEninja]

RC's read is waaaaaaay too meta for me. I can't vote Titus over Wickan based on that shit.

SP voting Wickan is good, but I can't help but wonder if there's self-preservation behind the vote, especially considering how his first content post was indication he was going to vote me (the leading wagon) before actually even reading me at all.

Wickan is probscum, so I shouldn't be getting too paranoid here, but it bugs me a little.

[ICEninja]

Not sure if ABR is scum or just has a thought process so foreign to me I can't possibly follow it.

[ICEninja]

We have enough people saying Wickan is scummy to lynch him, but it seems to be damn near impossible to actually get people to commit to his wagon. This feels like a wagon on scum, when scum doesn't really want to bus much.

I don't hate Titus votes, but I think it's time to lynch. SP looks useless, I'm done waiting for him to catch up. We have 30 pages.

It's time to lynch Wickan.

[ICEninja]

And whenever I voted Wickan to get a consensus so our town impass would finally fall, people unvote; go to other wagons, and now I'm being pushed with literally NO engagement so far on why.

This is what it's like trying to lynch scum when scum doesn't want to bus, especially on D1.

[ICEninja]

What is WRONG with this town. MAN this is frustrating.

Johnny, talk some sense in to these nutjobs. Right now I'm feeling like a 14 year old girl because

I can't even

.

[ICEninja]

Finally an intent to hammer, ugh. I don't think I've ever been in a day 1 that stretched to 32 pages before in a 13 man game, let alone a 10 man. In fact, I think I've played entire games this short.

FA, I wasn't any one specific player, but town as a collective whole. What does "start making data instead" mean?

[ICEninja]

So I don't know about you guys, but in my 30-something games I've seen scum fake claim hider I think 3 times, and it's virtually never actually played in normal games. Does anyone here have any experience actually having a legit hider in a normal mini?

I don't believe the claim.

[ICEninja]

Wait so, do people believe the hider claim or are people just putting off lynching Wickan on the off chance he's actually a hider and dies during night phase?

A hider is a perfect scum fake claim. A cop is going to get shot, so a cop surviving the night is suspicious, A scum fake claiming hider could just claim to hide behind some random townie that scum is fine shooting the next night anyway.

If we do want to give him a chance on the off-chance that he's ACTUALLY a hider, I'm really only wanting to lynch Titus. Maaaaybe Simple Plan, but that's only if we really aren't going to lynch Titus.

Since I've never played with a hider before, can someone explain to me the idea behind this hider pool? It seems like if he hides behind scum we have a lynch pool of 3 people which isn't terrible, and it reduces the risk of scum killing 2 townies with one bullet. How do we pick who to put in the pool? Titus is literally the last person I want picking the people.

We're really trusting him, though. If he "confirms" town, can we actually be confident it isn't a fake claim?

[ICEninja]

The last time I had a scum fake claim hider in my game, town forced him to "hide" behind a specific player, and it seemed like the right thing to do.

Whatever the case may be, lynching him would be a strategic mistake if he's telling the truth.

I'm pretty sure he's not.

Anyways, if we aren't lynching Wickan, this is the right thing to do:

Unvote, vote Titus

.

[ICEninja]

40 pages in...still no lynch...I see nothing worth sheeping on the ABR vs. Taly 1v1. Johnny is probably the only player I trust enough to sheep and he's against lynching my main scum read, so I don't even know what to do right now.

Scum somehow managed to get us talking in circles like crazy, this is insane. I somehow feel like there HAS to be scum in one of the active players because I feel like town is rarely this fragmented. ASP seems like a good bet as scum if town really is this fragmented/being distracted heavily by scum.

I still want

ANYONE other than Titus

to be the one to decide on the hider pool.

[ICEninja]

Jesus wtf is this game. Every day it gets harder and harder to read this and care about it at all. I've played entire games shorter than this 1 day.

I'm not voting talah (wtf is this wagon out of nowhere), Johnny, I'm still pretty damn confident Wickan is scum but I guess that lynch isn't happening today.

Unvote, Vote A Simple Plan

. Not gonna see talah lynched today, Titus seems to not be happening. If Johnny convinces me to move my vote I will but

just fucking lynch someone

this is so dumb.

[ICEninja]

I have like, negative 5 interest in continuing to read this game, it's become an insane time sink with absolutely no movement that's just pissing me off with how the wagons move from person to person.

Does anyone have issue with me just replacing?

[ICEninja]

Sigh...fine. Guess I'm not doing anything important today. But this game better fucking move because this is literally the first game I've ever been in (after quite a few games) that's felt like a chore.

Give me a bit.

[ICEninja]

Alright so my interest in this game tanked the instant Wickan's wagon fell apart, so I guess I'll start with all the hider discussion.

FOR THE RECORD

this hider claim is bullshit

and you guys are just delaying scum being lynched. But since you all want to play it safe, fine, I'll pretend.

Titus's reasons given for having a 3 man lynch pool are essentially fine, but there are a couple issues with it. There are issues with picking a specific target, and there are issues with letting him go blind. Any strategy is going to have it's ups and downs I suppose. Honestly I don't have a problem with the hider pool being [me, ABR, ASP/talah], it seems as good as any, I just don't like the fact that probscum picked the pool and that everyone just blindly agreed with it.

Taly's 872 made me raise my eyebrow. Taly, despite often being unsure of votes, has never seemed THIS timid about things. This in particular:

I rarely get NKed; but when I do - it's extremely early in game.

I get wagoned a lot, especially when I'm town. But a lot of my wagons are scum-led throughout my games...

bugs me a lot. It reads like scum trying to get sympathy to not get wagoned, and have a reason to be still alive at lylo. That combined with the back-and-forward on RC looks scummy as hell.

I missed this first time around when asked if he crumbed:

I did not. However, I did laugh hysterically when I read FA's 421

Hrm. That would be AWFULLY lucky for scum to have caught and makes me worry if I've been wrong about Wickan all along. I probably would have chuckled if someone said something like that about my role too.

Fuck. Time to re-evaluate things.

And...yeah this game is a mess.

I don't like this from RC:

I literally could not care less what the hider does. They can stay home for all I care.

I don't need investigative roles to catch scum.

The only way that he's useful to me is if he checks Titus, which isn't about the investigation it's about proving it to you lot.

I don't find it scummy but I do find it anti-town.

Taly seems to mirror my frustration with this game in 905. This comment isn't scum hunting, just reminding you guys that this game fucking sucks and people need to start working together more.

Titus definitely seems to be thinking this whole hider thing through. Either he's town and just being smart about things, or he's scum and has perfectly engineered the hider even to work in scum's favor.

Welp talah self voted, I guess that's where that wagon came from. I can see why it did too, holy shit where did that self vote even come from. The slightest bit of pressure from RC results in a self-vote??

What do you think of this?

It makes me feel like I've been giving talah too much of a free pass based on early game stuff. It's been a long time since someone went from learning town to probscum THIS fast. Taly's 1065 checks out too. I don't normally use meta so much, but "Don't self-vote as town ever, no matter how tempting it might be." said as town is pretty definitive.

And of course Titus thinks talah is town. Essentially anything I think, Titus thinks the

exact opposite

.

Can you tell me what was scummy about the self-vote apart from "WAY TOO" please. Usually self-votes are scummy because they're inauthentic or because they have some kind of fake appeal to emotion.

Yours was both. You had ONE vote of pressure and you suddenly went all self vote.

I finally agree with Titus on something, talah flipping scum almost certainly makes Taly town.

So I decided I'd give him some help with wagonning me. Maybe he'd push a case, maybe I'd become a juicy target. Who knows. But I've done this before as town in at least a couple of games. So I guess my blanket statement about not self-voting is - well circumstantial (as it related to Netherspite in that game) and a bit pie-in-the-sky. Sometimes I just find it quite difficult to keep everything super-optimal and serious especially when games drag out on Day 1 like this. So I take a sidetrack or two.

This is one of the most absurd defenses I've ever seen.

Also the self-vote was the second vote on the wagon. I literally created the wagon.
Do you think that doesn't line up with me having some purpose for it?

The

only

possible point I can see to doing this is to distract town and throw discussion off even more. Maybe it's because ASP is a scum buddy and you wanted to distract people from the leading wagon?

@RC could you further explain your 1092?

ASP I'm going to suggest actually might be town based on the fact there is zero resistance to his lynch - either that or he's simply being bussed at this point because his lynch seemed inevitable. I can vote here but have changed my mind on preference.

This could be relevant information after we have a talah flip.

Also let's consider these three points in sequence:

Frozen's vote on my wagon was the most opportunistic

Taly's push was pretty bad too

ICE I mistrust because of his *lack* of suspicion on me, actually

The pushes on me are bad, but ICE is mistrusted because he didn't push on me.

Ho boy.

Talah is also using a copy-paste where some of the information present was pre-talah wagon, making himself look better than he would if it started after.

So I'm not getting into a wall-war with you

This is at the beginning of a wall-war post. I don't really need to add anything to it.

Titus, your 1124 doesn't track because the reason my name is all over that thing is because I never contributed to it. What you're looking at is a "this is what wasn't contributed in that list", of which I contributed nothing.

Ice has been almost every wagon only bussing ASP when this pattern became apparent.

This is flat out wrong. I've basically voted Wickan 80% of the day, you 15% of the day, and ASP 5% of the day. Where the fuck are you getting this info? Oh that's right, you're going to make sure reality is twisted to suit your agenda, because that's what scum does.

what do you think about the inverse list thing talah brought up. no one else has any problems with that? as he wanted to say its people conscious

It's scummy as hell.

Abandon your solo wagons and vote talah.

I'm done.

For the record my vote has been on ASP not Titus, as the mod seems to think.

Sorry Johnny, not sheeping you on this.

Unvote, Vote talah

. L-1.

[ICEninja]

So does anyone

actually

need me to do that copy paste thing fill in my own info? It seems moot at this point.

[ICEninja]

Also that hiding joke he pulled from 30 pages ago is super unlikely to come from someone who didn't have a hider pm. He quoted someone else too, so he'd have been planning that fake claim for a whiiiiiiiile as scum or just an astoundingly good memory, but him just being a hider (which is a bad role for scum to fake claim) is way more likely

Yeah this sold me on being a probhider.

It's annoying too because the ONE time I don't believe the hider claim, it's probably real.

[ICEninja]

I gave all the fucks I had and then some on my last post. What the fuck is wrong with this town.

Mod...I'm sorry. Please replace me. I'm just not enjoying this game in any form and have to erase verbally berating people in every single preview post I do now because of how frustrated this game makes me

.

[ICEninja]

Sorry I ditched this game. I can't believe how little there was to read after D1 ended. That D1 though...ugh that was just pure torture. I wasn't faking a damn thing lol. My last game was quite a bit shorter than this game's first day.

[ICEninja]

I'm pretty awful as scum. I made a pretty brilliant play one game and basically single handedly won but other than that i'm easy as hell to lynch as scum and damn near impossible to lynch as town.