***Mini Normal 1744 - Country Music Mafia - Game Over***

[bji]

Hey all. I see things are happening quickly, me likes. It's been a while since I played this game, and I don't have much experience to begin with, so apologies in advance for being pretty stupid.

First impressions (in order of posts as I see them):

1. I don't understand this whole "role play" business or why it's important. I didn't understand why claiming an ice cream flavor (which I presume to be vanilla) would be "committed to roleplay to the point of absurdity" (as per golden009 post 25). Does role playing typically require making an early claim? Also, is there some way in which role playing is relevant to the game that I don't understand because it just seems like noise to me at this point.

2. I didn't understand this phrase from post 44: "pls -pm 11 your roles." Can someone translate this to English? Is this a call to some action?

3. RolePlay25 is certainly interesting. Such deft chains of logic belying significant mafia experience, but doesn't know what OMGUS means. In my experience you cannot get through a game of mafia on this site without, by the end, knowing what OMGUS means if you didn't already. So my conclusion is, like others, that RolePlay25 has significant experience with mafia in some form or other, but not on this site. Also, RolePlay25 - do you have a pronoun preference? If not, I'm just going to call you 'he'. Thanks.

4. RC is noncommittal. Just wants to be sure everyone knows she's town, little else, unless there's something significant I don't understand from (2).

5. Posts 63 - 67 were super interesting. goldeneye009 falsely claims L-1 on RolePlay. Dwlee99 falesely hammers. Jake jumps right on that and says "no you don't". Then Dwlee99 announces that he was just reaction testing, and then golden009 notes that Dwlee99 already voted anyway, so even if it WAS L-1 it wouldn't have counted. Some questions:
a. Dwlee99, if you thought your reaction test had value, why not let it go and see what came of it, even given Jake's posting? I mean if you're reaction testing, I'd think you'd want to see some reactions. Maybe people would have something to say about you, given what you'd done. Don't you care what people think about you? Wouldn't you care about people's feeling about anyone other than RolePlay25 if you were really scum hunting?
b. golden009, did you intentionally fake claim L-1? If so, did you get the outcome you wanted? If not, how do you justify being so careless with an early L-1 claim?

6. To answer post 80: I joined last Xmas as something to do when I was sick in bed with bronchitis. I had a tremendously fun first game and worked my way up to normal queues. However my experiences quickly started to be less enjoyable as I a) started taking the game too seriously, including getting frustrated with pace of play, and b) ran into some frustrating situations such as games in which someone purposefully threw the game at the last minute, and also a game in which someone self-hammered as doctor just out of spite, and I started to find that I was more annoyed at the game of mafia than I was having fun, so I quit. That was in May 2015. So I decided to try again just recently because I guess my memory of the fun parts has now eclipsed my memory of the bad parts. That seems to happen with hindsight in my experience. Anyway, total experience, 5 games or so, two newbie, three mini normal, plus this one.

7. The two most active players are RolePlay25 and Dwlee99, active to the point of numerous back-and-forth exchanges. This early, I would conclude TvT. However, the posturing is interesting.

[bji]

Dayvig Dwlee99

That's what you get for asking so many questions.

I've seen mafia-aligned day vig's before in larger games but I don't think the mod would be that mean in our mini normal... so well played for revealing that early.

Not following here, sorry. Are you saying that RC has revealed that she or Dwlee99 is a dayvig? Or that RC has revealed that there is no dayvig (because if there were, presumably they'd, for ?reasons?, obey RC and day kill Dwlee99)?

And how sincere is the "well played"? Is this genuine praise of RC, sarcastic criticism of RC, or just joking nonsense?

Lots of people say lots of things. They all sound believable to me to some degree. Like, all of it. I feel lost ...

Here are my "trying to make stuff happen" reads, in order of "trying hardest" to "hardly trying":

Dwlee99
RolePlay25
Super
Cow
acryon
Keyser Soze
RadiantCowbells
golden009
Neumune
MarioManiac4
Bloodking
Diego


Here are my "seems sincere" reads, in order of "most believable" to "sketchiest":

acyron
MarioManiac4
Cow
Super
RolePlay25
Dwlee99
Diego
Bloodking
golden009
Keyser Soze
Neumune
RadiantCowbells

Here are my "heebie jeebies" reads, in order for "scares the sh** out of me" to "harmless":

Keyser Soze
RadiantCowbells
RolePlay25
acryon 8
Super
Neumune
MarioManiac4
Dwlee99
Cow
Bloodking
Diego

Now, how do I intersect these lists to find scum?

[bji]

You can just go ahead and vote me.

There's really no need to make this giant wallpost to say that you want to vote le RadiantCowbells.

You can always see right through me RC

Of all the players that had to end up in my game, why you? You're one of the reasons I quit this site for 8 months wah wah ...

[bji]

Because why, because I was right about BBT scum?

I'm not sure what I would even have done in 1662 to upset you.

You're right. I'm too think skinned. My apologies for what I said, and it's a pleasure to have you in the game. Sincerely.

[bji]

"think" = "thin", obviously ...

[bji]

No, I legitimately have no idea what I did to upset you.

If you can fill me in, I can try to avoid doing it this game.

I am sensitive to my posts being called "walls". I've been criticized for it many times in the past, usually in an insulting manner, and it just bugs me, because it's not something I try to do, it just happens. But don't worry about it, seriously. I'll try real hard not to wall ...

[bji]

Here are my "heebie jeebies" reads, in order for "scares the sh** out of me" to "harmless":

Keyser Soze
RadiantCowbells
RolePlay25
acryon 8
Super
Neumune
MarioManiac4
Dwlee99
Cow
Bloodking
Diego

Now, how do I intersect these lists to find scum?

I noticed that I'm not on that last list.

My apologies, that was sincerely not intentional.

You were originally somewhere between Neumune and Dwlee99, maybe tied with Mario, but since then you've dropped down to Cow levels.

[bji]

No, I legitimately have no idea what I did to upset you.

If you can fill me in, I can try to avoid doing it this game.

I am sensitive to my posts being called "walls". I've been criticized for it many times in the past, usually in an insulting manner, and it just bugs me, because it's not something I try to do, it just happens. But don't worry about it, seriously. I'll try real hard not to wall ...

Friend BJI, your posts are like well maintained and well lit roads you invite us to walk down!

You talking this game? Or did you read my meta or something? Because if you want to see some of the most ridiculous walls possible, you should check my first game. Walls were my only weapon when I had no idea what to do and I just made up crazy theories and made it sound like I was a newbie who believed them ... (I was scum) ...

Hm ... sound familiar?

[bji]

I have enjoyed your posts this game! I can't imagine trying to find other games by you so I have not read them. There are hundreds of games on this site!

No problem. For the record, I never read old games either, meta be damned. Just the thought of it nearly puts me to sleep.

[bji]

bji's second post didn't seem to serve much of a purpose, with the inclusion of people with very few posts or content. Explanations would be nice, as it looks like a list of activity levels.

"Trying to make stuff happen" means appearing to be scum hunting. Dwlee99 and RolePlay25 were clearly the frontrunners in that category with numerous postings and clear thought processes. In the middle of the pack are a bunch of people who are trying to keep up and posting probing questions but without the same level of apparent committment. At the bottom we have people posting less and/or not looking very aggressive.

"Seems sincere" is believability. Note that RolePlay25 and Dwlee99 dropped down on that list compared to the first. I always have the suspicion of an early bus just to throw everyone off, so there's that. RadiantCowbells is at the bottom because this style of just throwing out zingers is always suspicious to me.

"Heebie Jeebies" is a ranking of people whom I feel most likely to be able to or be in the process of trying to manipulate the game and/or other players. Keyser Soze was scaring me at the time because there was something just too cold and calculating in his approach, although since then I've warmed up a bit on him and he'd no longer be at the top of that list. This ranking takes into consideration the apparent experience and skill level I perceive in players, as I feel that more experienced players are more likely to be able to manipulate the game as scum.

I included Bloodking and Diego even though there's almost nothing to go on with their posts, for completeness and because I thought it would take longer to explain why they weren't on the list than it would to just include them.

[bji]

I like your style, RolePlay, and to be honest, the things you say make sense to me. It worries me a bit that I seem so much more easily swayed by your wording than other people though. I don't want to be a gullible sheep.

VOTE: Keyser Soze

[bji]

I like your style, RolePlay, and to be honest, the things you say make sense to me. It worries me a bit that I seem so much more easily swayed by your wording than other people though. I don't want to be a gullible sheep.

VOTE: Keyser Soze

Do you always think out loud like this? In my experience I tend to see scum do this more than town so that if/when the vote leads to a townflip, you can always say "I knew I was worried about being swayed by you Roleplay" and then move on to RolePlay.

Mostly I just suck at this game and I'm trying hard to contribute when in reality I am a little lost. The first part of RolePlay's post hit on something that seemed reasonable to me:

One thing that worries me is that he seems to be instructing Supercool what to do! Twice now he has unsubtly told Supercool how to play the game to appear to be good! Keyser Soze is certainly a bad guy if Supercool is! And visa versa! This direction should not be ignored by the good guys!

I thought this was talking about posts 159 and especially 176 ("I need him (supercool) to press someone") looked a little like coaching.

The second part of RolePlay's post I didn't follow that well. But in any case, I thought, why not see how Keyser reacts, especially if it appears a wagon is forming based on those arguments?

[bji]

I find the reasons of your scum-read very unsatisfactory and weak.

Yeah me too.

UNVOTE: Keyser Soze

Have you found an answer to this yet:

Now, how do I intersect these lists to find scum?

After all that analysis I was hoping for more than just a sheep vote

Patience, friend.

[bji]

A weathervane reflects only the direction the winds are blowing. If the wind is not blowing in a predictable pattern, then the weathervane by nature is very inconclusive! It wobbles back and forth, trying to reflect the direction of the wind, but ultimately revealing only the futility of predicting the future with the gusts of the present.

Perhaps Keyser Soze is not a crime boss but a hurricane!

Can you translate this?

I can: garbage in, garbage out.

He's theorizing that Keyser is driving the garbage truck.

[bji]

Sigh. I tried to avoid it but I couldn't. A wall follows, sorry.

I re-read the thread and took notes. First, on a player-by-player basis, just hitting the high points:

Acryon: Like some others, I see nothing to dislike here or disagree with. Very astute observations post 107, 121, 183, 214.

Bloodking: I believe his claim to have the flu, which explains his absence, and precludes me trying to draw any other conclusions from his lack of participation. His analysis when it finally came seems rational, if not a little predictable.

Diego: I predict a replace-out.

Dwlee99: Showed alot of eagerness early, posting every few minutes and actively involved in back and forth exchanges, especially with RolePlay25, and then kind of petered out. The reaction test seemed careless and unnecessary, not likely to produce a good outcome for town or scum, so null but puzzling. Seems a little fixated on RC later in the game.

golden009: Very quick to assign scum motivations early. Expressed lots of confusion about Dwlee99's fake hammer but then just kind of lost interest in it.

Keyser Soze: Quick jump off the RolePlay25 wagon, I want to believe it was sincere but could be trying to squeeze some town cred out of leaving a wagon that he knew would not end in a hammer anyway (because who hammers in the first few hours of day 1? Does that *ever* happen?). Most of his posts question others' consistency or sincerity, so clearly believes that scum can be detected by looking for inconsistencies or insincerities. I can find no clear fault with anything Keyser has done.

MarioManiac4: Has posted very little aside from some early suspicion of Golden. Lack of continued posting despite more ammunition for his position on Golden having come around since (as there have been many more postings by or discussing Golden and Mario certainly has had ample opportunity to refine his position and tell us about it), leads me to believe that he's a bit AWOL at the moment.

Neumune: About the only strong conclusion I can come to is that this player clearly doesn't like "Town of Salem", whatever that is.

RadiantCowbells: Has done very little except fake claim. If I recall from prior experience, this is not unusual for town RC, which is the only RC I've ever played with.

RolePlay25: Gets alot of criticism for his style, but persists, which I actually appreciate. Some want to brand this 'anti-town', but I see it as wanting to have fun and play the game on his own terms and not letting anyone discourage him. Is either very diligently scumhunting, or is trying very hard to appear that he is, and I see no reason to conclude it's the latter.

supercool898: Seemed very reasonable, up to post 161. The first paragraph gives a very unconvincing argument for backing away from a suspicion of RolePlay25 ("his role playing threw me"). Otherwise, seems just fine.

TheCow: Hasn't posted alot, seems fine. One of the "suspicious of Golden" crowd.

One of the only clear conclusions from reading everyone's ISO is that Golden is in hot water. A large percentage of players claim to be suspicious of Golden. I personally do not see it; most of the suspicion seems to center around Golden not voting for his top scumread all of the time, and otherwise not pushing on people that he claims to have some suspicions of, but I don't feel these are necessarily scummy behaviors. They could just as easily be the result of taking a more cautious approach. I for one can identiy with this as I have a very hard time mustering any convictions given how easily it is to conclude WIFOM on everything.

Finally, I feel like we have some players of superior experience and talent here, and they are Keyser Soze and RolePlay25. I am constantly seeing, through their comments, stuff that I didn't see in my own reading. If either of these are scum, I don't think I'll easily detect it.

[bji]

Keyser, my manservant has informed me of an important fact. But he wishes you to guess what it is.

Mario and BJI are invited too.

He burned the cookies? Say it isn't so.

[bji]

Is that not enough? Please explain to me how any hero who has thoroughly perused this game might view our friend MarioMaker as a null, a blank spot. Is this the actions of a hero seeking understanding, or a villain who has noted a possible target for later?

It seems loose to assume that he must be scum because no town that thoroughly perused the game would make these notes. Who said he thoroughly perused it? I think it's clear he didn't. Bloodking's post reads like someone who scanned through 10 pages after being sick and didn't dive into the minutia of every post. I don't blame him for that. Ideally, every player, active or inactive, would take a detailed look at each post, but that's not reality and it also doesn't make him scum.

100% this. I continue to admire your style, RolePlay25, but you're wasting alot of breath and energy on shaky premises.

[bji]

bji, your list appears to be only short notes, with no commentary on them. If those points are noteworthy enough to be on the list, do you believe any of them to point to any alignment in particular?

It took an hour and a half just to read the ISOs and come up with my observations, there was less time to try to form some kind of coherent reads list. But I wanted to get my observations out because I thought maybe they would help identify some things that had been missed.

Acryon, Keyser Soze, and RolePlay25 are strong town reads.
supercool898 and Golden are weak town reads.
Everyone else is pretty null.

This is pretty typical for me though, especially on Day 1.

[bji]

He didn't say he agreed with me on the alignment of Golden necessarily. He said "So far I like his scum hunting and questions the most I can completely understand his thought process and why he is asking the questions he is." Where in there does he say he agrees with me on the alignment of Golden?

Understanding

is not

agreement

. I already stated what I thought about his statements. Nothing too crazy and looks like a standard catch-up post. Anything groundbreaking? No. Is this something to keep in mind on future days? Sure. Am I interested in lynching him over it today? Nope.

I personally believe that when someone says "I can completely understand his thought process", they usually mean they agree, to some degree. It would be hard to understand someone so well that you'd be willing to state that you do so, without agreeing with that thought process, because most people wouldn't be willing to state that they completely understand something they don't agree with.

It's a minor point, but I think you should give more credence to RolePlay's point here than you are, based on that.

[bji]

5) I voted him because I thought his early play was "opportunistic" - not because I thought the two players already on his wagon were "good players".

I don't see where you would have thought golden was opportunistic (you can futher explain your statements of post 157 if you want). I have read and re-read his ISO so many times to try to understand people's feelings about him and I still don't get it.

Early on (post 16) he voted beause he didn't like early bandwagons. I don't agree with that stance but I don't think there's anything alignment-indicative in it.

Later in post 41 he justifies not voting his top scum read (RolePlay) because "random bandwagons are dumb". This is

consistent

. But it's the thing that got alot of people nervous about golden ... like, how could you not vote your top scum read golden? Don't you know IT IS A SIN?

Then he goes to bed, and then in post 62 he doesn't like a subsequent RolePlay post, so he votes RolePlay. That is

consistent

. He explained it all in post 103.

Golden's point "Four" from post 167 also sticks out. Something about noting the irony of his question to RolePlay just smacks town to me. It's a super minor thing but I think scum would be too self-conscious about the irony of the question to point it out pre-emptively like that.

I guess one thing I don't understand is this from Golden's post 251:

"In addition, Roleplay has looked somewhat less suspicious in the last couple pages, mainly because of his actual analysis and trying to get the game moving."

I personally don't remember any difference in how RolePlay was playing

after

Golden's vote compared to

before

so I guess I would like to better understand why Golden thinks that RolePlay's behavior after the vote justified removing the vote.

[bji]

That is one factor I found inconsistent. Why would voting for your strongest scum read make it a "random bandwagon"?
It would have purpose. There is nothing "dumb" about it.

I think it's disingenuous to conclude that "random bandwagon" in this post meant anything other than "bandwagon without sufficiently compelling evidence to justify its existence", which is why saying that he didn't want to vote

yet

but then deciding to vote

later

(when there was more evidence that pushed the evidence into vote-worthy territory) was consistent.

In contrast, a bandwagon during RVS, wagons are formed not on scum reads, but random shit reasons (they are both random and dumb).

As just stated, I think you are not trying hard enough to understand what the phrase "random bandwagon" meant in this context. It's not the same meaning as in "random RVS bandwagon".

Your hard defense on golden009 has been noted.

Fine, but can you please scribble "while trying to keep Keyser from going off into the weeds" in the margin? Thanks!

[bji]

I think it's disingenuous to conclude

"Disingenuous"? That was my genuine take on the nature and timing of his vote (hence my vote).
The same way I feel you are genuinely defending the motivation of golden009's behaviour.
"Disingenuous" is quite an accusation.[/quoete]

Yes, bad choice of wording. I didn't mean it that strongly. What word means "misinterpreted a phrase, possibly innocently, or possibly because it conveniently allowed a conclusion to be drawn on apparently stronger evidence than was actually present?" That's what I meant.

[bji]

Sorry, bad quoting, I'll fix here; if the mod wants to remove post 336 for everyone's convenience that would be cool.

I think it's disingenuous to conclude

"Disingenuous"? That was my genuine take on the nature and timing of his vote (hence my vote).
The same way I feel you are genuinely defending the motivation of golden009's behaviour.
"Disingenuous" is quite an accusation.

Yes, bad choice of wording. I didn't mean it that strongly. What word means "misinterpreted a phrase, possibly innocently, or possibly because it conveniently allowed a conclusion to be drawn on apparently stronger evidence than was actually present?" That's what I meant.

[bji]

I do not know what an "FOS" is, nor do I care.

You make no effort to comprehend the meaning of my words, nor do you make the effort to engage in civil discussion to clarify your lack of comprehension. Is it through a paucity of intellect, or a byproduct of the nature of your alignment? I find that I cannot muster even the least little iota of desire to deduce that today.

I wish to converse with other people, I do not wish to converse with you. I shall take further intervention from you to derail conversations I am having with more refined members of this company as a declaration that you do not wish any actual attempts to discover the alignment of our fellow players to occur. I will react accordingly. You may place your vote on me to chastise me for my behavior. Try to locate someone who gives a shit.

And the gloves are off, gentlemen!

[bji]

Twenty paces at daybreak? RolePlay, do you need a second?

[bji]

I think that if you're trying to catch up and don't have time/energy to read in detail all of the prior postings (and I can understand this as it did take me 1.5 hours to do a careful re-read and even then I didn't have time to do as careful reading of the later postings as I did of the earlier), you're less likely to go "out on a limb" with strong reads, and/or reads that buck the status quo, because you know in the back of your mind that because you haven't read carefully, you may have missed something that will either a) cause you to look inconsistent or opportunistic or whatever and get you in the hot seat (which neither town nor scum generally want to be in), or b) just lead to distracting noise as you have to respond to the comments that indicate the flaws in your reasoning, all wasting town time dealing with mis-statements that simply came out of not having read well enough.

I find that just as plausable an explanation for Bloodking's reads list as the ulterior motives that RolePlay suggests. And I also find it null, as I can see both town and scum doing the same thing here.

That being said, RolePlay's explanation is

also plausable

and is

good evidence

that will be

remembered and referred to later

should other supporting evidence of Bloodking's guilt present itself.

Finally, I find it depressing that the two people who are the hottest topics of conversation - golden and bloodking - aren't even bothering to answer questions directed to them or defend their prior postings. I guess some patience is in order here though, I guess real life must be getting in the way or something.

[bji]

VOTE: Neumune

339 is a very scum motivated post.

You know that this post is just going to lead to people asking you to explain yourself. So why not just save everyone time and explain yourself before being asked?

[bji]

How can a thing be both null and good evidence?

If someone says or does a thing that doesn't have clear motivation now, it can be revisted later when it can be seen as part of a larger pattern of behavior that gives greater confidence in a conclusion.

That's kind of how this game works.

[bji]

This is shit BJI

Give me a bloodking vote now. Who the hell are you even voting anyway? No one? You think no one is suspicious enough to warrant a vote at this moment? We are 375 posts in, how can this be a thing?

Your former town read is now a burning shambles, BJI.

At this point, no, no one is suspicious enough to warrant my vote. But I'm not stressed, we have a long time to go yet before this Day is over.

[bji]

Paging Captain List!

Intersect me some List! I make list too!

Yeah, so I wrote those lists because at the time I was just trying to add some content in a way that I thought might lead to interesting discussion. I also felt like I wanted to make a "read list" but felt like I didn't have a coherent enough viewpoint to condense my thoughts into the simple axis of "town - scum", so I decided to make some lists that reflected several axis on which I could judge people, and maybe it could evolve into eventual read lists.

I expected some derision, because people on this site tend to get their panties in a bunch over anything that doesn't match what they think is "The Way The Game Should Be Played" (to be honest, you're the one person I didn't think would engage in this, but I guess I was wrong). And now arrives the derision.

By the way, you've fallen out of character quite a bit lately. I liked the old you better.

[bji]

Well to be frank I can't remember everything I was thinking when I made those lists but looking back on them some things do stand out:

- Dwlee99, Super, and Cow no longer deserve to be anywhere near the top of the "trying to make stuff happen" list.

- Keyser still scares me because I perceive him to be very experienced and good at this game and if he's scum I feel I have little or no chance against him. That being said, he sure hasn't

seemed

like scum, so his "seems sincere" rating has risen precipitously.

- I felt kind of similar with regards to being afraid of RadiantCowbells because my prior experience was that RC was a pretty shrewd player, but he's really fallen flat this game. No longer scary. Still near the bottom of the "seems sincere" list though.

- I'm mostly OK with the other rankings as I had them back then

Sorry, not as insightful as I'd hoped.

I'll let you in on a little secret: I don't think it's really possible to effectively scum hunt on Day 1. Statistics show that scum are lynched on Day 1 no better than random chance. What we need is to have lots of interaction so that come Day 2 we have real data to work with. I feel comfortable with how that's been going so far.

[bji]

Hello everybody.
Over the weekend my activity should improve.
Mocks are getting in the way.

Keyser makes a good point about my questions. Golden is the right wagon and it shouldn't be abandoned.
My playstyle this game is to focus on logic first and foremost disregarding gur for the most part. This causes me to focus on a player. If I see a request I will almost always try and do it ASAP.

But I completely destroyed the case against Golden in post 315. Even Keyser gave up on Golden after that. Why are you still voting Golden? Why is anybody still voting Golden?

[bji]

But I completely destroyed the case against Golden in post 315. Even Keyser gave up on Golden after that. Why are you still voting Golden? Why is anybody still voting Golden?

I still want to vote golden009 - in no way is he a town-read of mine.
Why can't other people vote golden009?

Do you think golden009 is town-aligned, bji?

I want to understand why players who have not refuted my arguments from post 315, would continue to vote Golden.

And yes, I do think he's town aligned, I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

What does it mean to "want to vote golden009"? Who else do you "want to vote"?

[bji]

Because consistency is not always town and he didn't actually explain voting Roleplay at L-1. Don't have a clue what you were talking about on that point.

1. You're attempting to reverse the burden of proof. The claim was that he is scum because of a perceived inconsistency. Are you a) admitting that he wasn't inconsistent, or b) trying to argue that he's scum because he was consistent?

2. He explained his L-2 vote on RolePlay in post 103.

3. What point don't you have a clue about? I'll be happy to explain further.

[bji]

Hey guys. I'm still around but I haven't had as much time to read thoroughly as I'd like. Just a quick note on a recent question from 489 - I said I "destroyed" the case against golden mostly for the fun of hyperbole, but I really do think the case is very weak and I do really think that I showed as much pretty clearly.

Also I'd like to welcome Malakittens very warmly. She was mod of my first game last December and there's a special warm place in my heart for her for that reason ...

That being said - Malakittens, what do you think of Acryon? He's the player most universally townread aside from Keyser and maybe RolePlay. And yet you don't include him in your town list, you put Dwlee there instead which is a bit of an incongruent choice if you ask me.

[bji]

Bji, are you scum reading me?

You're closer to that read than many others. I find the early flurry of activity followed by the "just participating enough to look interested" phase incongruous. Also the fake hammer doesn't sit right with me; it could have been sincere but it's hard for me to see anyone thinking that would really work, which makes it look more like posturing than anything else.

That being said - Malakittens, what do you think of Acryon? He's the player most universally townread aside from Keyser and maybe RolePlay. And yet you don't include him in your town list

Hmm. We already know acryon is a "strong town read" of bji's.
But why is bji slapping Malakittens across the face for not also town-reading acryon (a "most universally townread" player).
Why should acryon being "universally town-read" affect Malakittens' read of him?
Why can't Malakittens' have a gut town-read of Dwlee99?

You didn't find those town reads a little weird? There are three players this game that I feel have had a very similar level of involvement and have asked a very similar level of probing questions: you, RolePlay, and Acryon. I would expect someone who has evaluated two as town to evaluate the third the same way. It feels a little forced to pick one to drop out of the town read list so that someone else can be pulled in. Feels more like being afraid of sheeping than making coherent reads to me.

Additionally, I found the phrasing a little weird: "So it's kinda interesting how our reads are almost polar opposite". This was followed by a partial reads list in which

nothing

was the "polar opposite" of Bloodking's reads. This is another thing that felt off and forced to me. The fear of appearing to be sheeping is strong in this one.

Finally, why is my question "slapping Malakittens across the face"? Would you categorize your questions as slapping me across the face? If so, then why are you slapping me across the face? If not, what is the difference between your questions and mine that warrant that judgement on my question but not yours?

[bji]

post 144 : wow good point.

why BJi?!

Because when you make three lists it's easy to forget someone. What a weird thing to say though. "wow good point" about something on the level of a typo.

post 263 : now everybody posting walls? why someone being in a hot water is a bad thing? you ever asked why people are pushing golden ?

Don't forget, you're posting walls too. It's what happens when you do a re-read of the thread and try to give your thoughts.

I never said someone being in hot water is a bad thing. I was pointing it out. It was a subtle attempt to get golden more engaged since he wasn't responding to the votes against him.

Everyone has fled the BL0ODK1NG wagon, bar you and I. Frozen Angel's very presence seemingly dispelled all fear and doubt on her slot.

Is that surprising, given that the wagon on Bloodking was there mostly because people didn't like his level of activity, both in terms of volume, and in terms of producing a "too safe, didn't try hard enough" reads list? Frozen Angel certainly took care of dispelling both of these issues right off the bat.

[bji]

Tell me, BJI, why your sudden change of heart?

What change of heart?

[bji]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

[bji]

Expect for I didn't come into the game to lurk. I have a close fo fifty hour work week for just this week only. If I replaced in to merely just lurk I wouldn't have caught up. I'm providing content, I'm engaging etc. basically my actvivt wil be a bit sluggish this week and I think that's totally acceptable, but whatever.

I also know Dan he's a good friend of mine.

I respect that and am OK with it. If you do have time though, I'd like some more explanation on your town reads, specifically with regards to my question in post 499.

[bji]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

you might wanna explain ?

"Reasons". I promise I will explain at the appropriate time.

[bji]

However, as a quick explanation, I agree with RolePlay that your posts of "content" had more of the appearance of trying to deliver content than actually doing so. When Bloodking did it, I was willing to believe it was null. But when his replace-in does it too ... it's hard to believe that there's not something more to it.

[bji]

For what it's worth, I've seen something like this before. I saw a scum player get so upset by being bussed in weird ways by her partners that she quit the game and was replaced. There were also players getting all up in arms about "leave the poor player alone, can't you see you're upsetting her". Turns out that I was applying strong pressure to her which was another of the reasons she replaced out. When she replaced, I figured I must have been wrong about her being scum, because I couldn't believe that someone would go off emotionally and then quit just because they're getting pegged as scum (and I guess not feeling like her scum partners were helping the situation), and I felt kind of guilty about it. So I reversed my vote on her; luckily my team mates carried the torch forward against her replace-in and lynched her. The slot was scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6674033

Not sure that's what's happening here ... but there are parallels ...

Also, mod, since you seem to be reading here ... can we get a vote count? I do not believe that Frozen is at L-2 or L-1 but I may have miscounted.

[bji]

Wow. And here comes Titus, the replace in of the game that I just posted about. Crazy!

[bji]

Don't think that's what's happening here trust me

But ... I don't trust you. Especially when you come in looking like you're just afraid of making reads.

That being said, I really do not want to ruin anyone's life, so Frozen, please try to take what's happening objectively if possible; it's just a game and nobody dislikes you personally, at all, despite the aggressive nature of the kind of posting that happens in these games.

I have often thought that a game designed specifically to encourage people to ARGUE on the INTERNET must be one of the worst ideas of all time ...

[bji]

I dont understand how my posts even Come off as 'afaird of making reads'.

I have a bit of townreads, a bit of null leaning town and some scum reads so idk where you're getting I'm afaird of making reads is coming from

I stated before that your reads smelled suspicious because you a) said that you were "opposed" to everything Bloodking said and then you went and pretty much agreed with all of his reads. That suggests to me a conflict where you want to seem like you're bucking a trend (because bucking the status quo is indicative of a townie "really scumhuting, not just sheeping") but don't actually want to rock the boat by going out on any limbs ... except, so as not to seem like you're trying hard not to rock the boat, you have to disagree with Bloodking and the rest of the groupthink a "little bit" and so drop Acryon out of the town list and put Dwlee in there.

That is what I mean by "afraid of making reads", and I prompted you several times to address my concerns but you ignored all of my efforts.

[bji]

All I can say about the theme of this game is, I am just glad that the country music videos are not auto-play ... if they were I'd have to replace out

[bji]

I feel so mean. I said we should do Nashville Dreams. Nashville Dreams is my hydra with Mala. I was totally confused when Jake said he'd "do Nashville Dreams". Like quotes no context confused.

I have no clue what you're talking about. Now, about the game at hand ...

[bji]

I think I need to take a break from this thread. It is really screwing up my school work.

Dude, I feel the same way about my work work ...

[bji]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

you might wanna explain ?

Yes please. I felt bji was coming at this wagon from a neutral angle. That's the second time he's jumped on one of RolePlay25's wagons unexpectedly

The time is not yet ripe. But there has been a definite progression and I am fairly certain I'll be able to reveal my reasoning soon.

[bji]

to his my-ex-was-a-bitch-thus-all-women-are-bitches grudge

I find this kind of offensive. Please don't say things like this about me, and preferrably not about anyone. Thank you.

[bji]

to his my-ex-was-a-bitch-thus-all-women-are-bitches grudge

I find this kind of offensive. Please don't say things like this about me, and preferrably not about anyone. Thank you.

Sorry. I agree I could/should have worded that differently. I didn't mean it personally x

Apology accepted. Now, if you could explain what you meant.

[bji]

Apology accepted. Now, if you could explain what you meant.

You got burnt by player A doing X. Player B also does X. You conclude Player A has same motivation as Player B.

Well, there was no conclusion there, just an observation.

VOTE: Keyser Soze

You need to contribute and explain what you are doing/why you are reading.
Explain what these votes/fake roleclaims mean.
We're closer to the deadline now.

It would be hypocritical of me to agree but ... I agree anyway.

[bji]

The time is not yet ripe.

I don't know. We're getting closer to deadline. Still have a few posting but not really posting. A few threatening to prodge out the rest of Day 1. We need all the evidence on the table - plus, Frozen Angel deserves to defend herself with the optimum time allocated.

Deadline is 5 days away. Anyway, I expect I'll be able to be more open by tomorrow sometime.

[bji]

Well, there was no conclusion there, just an observation.

Well, is player B scum because of X, or is player B scum because of player A?

It's evidence. Evidence that the behavioral pattern I was seeing can have an explanation that is both rational, but also has been borne out by previous experience. But I'll talk more about this tomorrow. Right now my kids are pulling my elbow to try to get me to come to the dinner table.

[bji]

Ah finally. I can reveal the reason for my vote.

It's quite simple. Frozen Angel and RolePlay were bussing. I voted Frozen to put more pressure on her, hoping that if others piled on, we'd be able to see how much RolePlay really wanted to lynch her. I didn't want to tell my reasons then, because it would completely ruin any chance of getting an accurate read on RolePlay's intentions.

So how do I know that they were bussing? Consider:

- RolePlay makes some random early pressure on several players and then settles on Bloodking with a trumped-up case that he pushes hard. We've all seen how much RolePlay has "tunnelled" on the Bloodking/Frozen slot for most of the game by this point. Even Frozen admitted it.

- A reasonable explanation for this would be that RolePlay had agreed with Bloodking in scum pre-game chat to bus each other. It's a decent strategy, my scum partner and I won our first game with the same approach.

- But Bloodking goes AWOL. RolePlay is left bussing someone who isn't bussing back. This leaves RolePlay paralyzed because he has to keep bussing Bloodking on the assumption that he'll come back soon ... but Bloodking never comes back. Now RolePlay is left a bit out to dry but ...

- In comes Frozen to the rescue. Posts a bunch of fluffy comments to look like scum hunting and then, as her first action after this, in post 560, tells RolePlay:

"come drect on me RolePlay"

- So why did she post this? I'll tell you why. Frozen has access to the scum pre-chat and was able to read Bloodking and RolePlay's communication and knew they wanted to bus, but now that it's day she can't talk directly to RolePlay and so had to communicate her intention to continue the bus strategy. And there it was, in black and white. "come direct on me RolePlay".

- Immediately, RolePlay starts bussing her, hard. And she busses back, with lots of emotion and drama.

I started to get the feeling that there could be bussing here soon after these two started going at it, so I decided to make the game interesting by seeing if we could get Frozen close to L-1 and then see what RolePlay would do. If he dropped off the wagon, that would be further evidence - he doesn't want to really lynch Frozen, so he has to start acting uncertain ... which HE DOES, right around post 715. RolePlay is starting to beg Keyser to give him a reason to leave the Frozen wagon!

And Keyser doesn't play along; but RolePlay leaves anyway! 778

I am now 100% convinced that Frozen and RolePlay were bussing. I don't care which of Frozen or RolePlay goes first, but one of them has to go.

[bji]

Quoting this both to ensure it isn't accidentally bumped by my post and also to comment. This is the kind of crazy trail that I would take in games, and I love it. That being said, given the very real possibility that you are wrong, which of the two would we be less sad about lynching as a townie? I think it's clear the answer is FA.

Yes, FA.

[bji]

Also come on bji! You drop a bomb that I agree with and now you're not even here to take some of this heat?

Sorry still catching up. I had a mother of a work meeting that went from 10 am until 1:30 pm ... eating my leftover indian food and reading now ...

[bji]

What is a gladiate? I can't find anything on it

Someone please explain what this gladiate business was all about, as I also have no idea what it meant.

A quote from the first page of this game:

"11. We're all here to have fun. Tempers may flare, but avoid personal attacks and keep it civil. I will have very little tolerance if someone complains about the way you're talking to them."

Stop with the personal attacks already. They are no fun to read.

Now, with regards to the heated discussion between FA, RolePlay, and Acryon ...

First, I find nothing in it to change my vote. The things that FA and RolePlay are saying as they try to squirm out of range of the guilty fingers pointed at them is pretty much exactly what you'd expect. It's exactly what you'd expect from scum and exactly what you'd expect from town, so those posts are null for me. What is not null is the fact that I specifically evaluated FA and Role's play with a critical eye, came up with a hypothesis, and

tested that hypothesis

, and the results

supported the hypothesis

. I'm a scientific man, and I trust the scientific method.

Keyser -- why did you unvote Frozen? You have barely even commented on the developments that came out of my post, but you unvote FA. Why?

If someone has a vigilante shot, and Frozen Angel is scum, I wish to be shot tonight.
If someone has a vigilante shot, and Frozen Angel is town, shoot Acryon tonight.

How say you about your epiphany? Do you wish to sign on?

This is an actively anti-town ultimatum. Why would you propose this? None of the possible outcomes is better for town than the alternatives.

[bji]

BJI proposes that me and Fallen Angel are scum together.

BJI does not want me vigged if Fallen Angel is lynched.

'kay.

I didn't say that, but nice try. I asked why you would propose that

if you are town

. Sorry I guess I thought that was implied in my previous post. If you're town, you have no reason to wish for this ultimatum to come true because you'll be damning yourself to a mislynch if FA is scum, and damning another player to be killed with no further discussion if FA is town.

Therefore your ultimatum: is bad for

town RolePlay

if FA is scum, and is bad for

town everyone

if FA is town. The only person it's good for is

scum RolePlay

if FA is town.

So there is no town motivation in your ultimatum, which is my point.

If/when FA flips scum, I'd be very happy to have you vig killed or lynched.

[bji]

Let me put it another way. If RolePlay is town, then his proposal is that:

- We should kill a townie (RolePlay) if FA is scum
- We should kill a player who he believes is scum if FA is town

This essentially limits the next two deaths to a wash: we can't get more than one scum kill out of them.

That's the best outcome that a town RolePlay could be proposing.

The worst outcome is that both FA and Acryon are town; now we lose

two

town players in the next two deaths.

How in the world is a strategy that has

at best

a 50% town loss rate and

at worst

a 100% town loss rate a good strategy for town?

So which is it, RolePlay: are you scum, or are you town trying to get us to play sub-optimally?

[bji]

We have 10 town and 3 scum, yes?

How do you know this?

[bji]

Scum slip much?

[bji]

Normal queue does not require 10 town and 3 scum as far as I know. The ratios can be different.

I know this because of the discussion beginning here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6646580.

[bji]

Also, the mafiascum wiki does not say anything about how many scum are required in a normal game. It was always my assumption that it could be more or less than 3, presumably the difference being made up by stronger or weaker roles.

But you know there are 3 mafia in this game? Pray tell, how do you know that?

I have only played in a few normal games. If the ratio is always 10:3, why doesn't it say that on the wiki?

[bji]

Also, how do you know so much about normal games on this site without knowing what OMGUS means?

[bji]

Hm, I get the feeling that you were originally playing the role of "roleplaying newbie to this site", but have long since given up on that (and I don't blame you; your stuff was entertaning but I'm guessing extremely tiresome to have to write) and are now playing your true role of non-role-playing experienced mafiascum.net player.

[bji]

Back to reality, oops there goes gravity, why don't you vote for scum

I am voting for scum. Why did you stop voting for scum? I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to that, but hearing you try to explain why you begged Keyser to give you a reason to stop voting your top scum read will be entertaining. Do it in your old style if you can, thx!

[bji]

You're cute. I'll enjoy discussing some things with you frankly after the game.

Well I don't know if you're pissed off at me or what, but I was sincere when I said I liked your role play style. For what it's worth.

[bji]

Her substance? She seeks evil. The votes upon her? Predatory. My verdict? I mislike killing her. There are most certainly much better choices.

Oh, that is truly rich. You spent several hours pushing your case that she was guilty because her activity continued to meet the criteria that you used to judge Bloodking as guilty. May I remind you:

Is that surprising, given that the wagon on Bloodking was there mostly because people didn't like his level of activity, both in terms of volume, and in terms of producing a "too safe, didn't try hard enough" reads list? Frozen Angel certainly took care of dispelling both of these issues right off the bat.

In level of activity, higher.

In content of activity, no change.

Shall I produce some flash cards with smiley faces to communicate the sheer lack of content in her posts to you? It is not so hard to produce a very weak summary of events that occurred within a game. Especially one dominated by said faces and vague commentary (mostly about how she does not like the votes on her, apparently the primary focus of her reread).

Post 593:

Frozen Angel, each post you make in this thread provides us additional information about the identity of your partners. Each post you make provides us more and more information that will allow us to win the game. Please, keep posting. I am already learning a lot.

Already it is apparent that you wish to hard ride the lie that I voted Bloodking simply for activity level. I understand, you must formulate a defense of activity that was simply indefensible. You are not allowed to acknowledge your role is villainous. You are not allowed to wave the white flag and surrender. And I do admire the last ditch holding effort.

It is a last ditch holding effort though.

Post 629:

Fellow members of the town, there is two ways this can play out. The first is quite tiresome and trite. I make a "case". Frozen Angel attacks every single element of this case, because that is how it is supposed to play out. A good guy makes a case, if it is good enough the bad guy dies. She wants such. She desires such. She is actively seeking to attack my case, regardless of its contents. She argues that none of my points on Bloodking had merit, that they all boiled down to attacking him for lurking. For those of you who were there, you know this is not my case. For those of you who were not, read.

I prefer another method, perhaps this is from a bias that this site does not share. You read her posts, you see her raw need to latch onto a familiar framework of "town vs. scum" and you see how such framework she seeks places her as scum, and me as town. Like adults, like equals, we all make a judgment.

To me, it seems a waste of time to attempt to convince Frozen Angel she is a villain. She has known such since she replaced in. You know such by observation. Let us finish this.

Frozen spent most of the day simply freaking out in response to your bus on her. Everything she provided that day, you trashed as "not really trying to scum hunt" (to paraphrase). Then Frozen left for a while (went to bed) in post 704. Before she is even back, and without having posted anything new to change your mind about the sincerity of her scum hunting, you start feigning doubt in post 712. And by 736 you're in full-on "I beg of you please tell me to vote for someone else" mode.

I don't buy it.

But, perhaps you can point out the posts that Frozen Angel made prior to post 712 that convinced you that she's not really scum but was sincerely scum hunting? And perhaps you can explain why at the time that she posted them you continued to trash her posts as insincere, only to change your mind about them later?

Dear town: if you want to kill RolePlay today, instead of Frozen, I'm game. Either one will do. Thanks!

[bji]

Well, I tried. Be aware that you should be aware as to why you are wrong, you have been provided the information as to why you are wrong, and you remain wrong. After the game, when you are aware of our respective alignments, I wish that you understand that the flaw is in your analysis.

Well, you didn't try very hard, having not even responded to the evidence I presented. Also, I'd call your admission here that you know that I will only be aware of our respective alignments after the game ... interesting.

Now, as to other matters:

- Titus has been barely more participatory than her predecessor
- Mala, same ... but, at least she gave a warning and a reason.
- TheCow: lurking like a mofo.
- MarioManiac4: one small step up from TheCow
- supercool898: one small step up from MarioManiac4
- golden009: one small stup up fom supercool898

supercool barely escapes my threshold for "lame", everyone else is down in lame territory. Can y'all get in the game?

[bji]

RolePlay, is Frozen Angel's name counting "style" or "substance" in your opinion?

[bji]

Roleplay, people just get disinterested. Lol let's lynch type disinterested.

Your second paragraph is obscured by pronouns.

You should vote Supercool. He's super scum.

Titus, right now the reasoning I have for you voting Supercool is likely offensive, as in if I say it I will offend you or someone else. I don't want to do that. Please give me a good reason for you to be voting Supercool.

[bji]

And by the way, it's offensive not because I'll have to swear or insult you or your reasoning, but because the only reason I can think of would imply not so good, judgemental things about you. Please stop me from being judgemental! Give a rational explanation for why you'd vote supercool!

[bji]

[post]1083[/[post] didn't help.

[bji]

So Titus isn't interested in giving a reason, she's just interested in sheeping Mala. I'm sorry to have to say this, but here's why I think Titus is doing this:

Titus is some kind of "den mother" for a bunch of female players. The evidence in is in Mini 1652. She subbed in to replace a freaking out SilverWolf, and afterwards, admitted:

"No. I sub in a lot. I see one of my babies in trouble I protect them."

I thought that was a weird thing to say at the time but I never said anything. It gave me the impression that Titus feels like she is some kind of protector/supporter of a group of player that she believes are to some degree her responsibility. She defended SilverWolf's actions in a very personal way, as if SilverWolf's was personally important to her.

Now she's here, and all of her actions would seem to state that she doesn't really care much about playing this game, just about supporting another member of her cabal.

She comes in and immediately asks Mala who to vote for.

She doesn't scum hunt, pressure, really play at all. She just sheeps Mala's vote.

She continues to cheerlead for the wagon that Mala is on.

She doesn't want to give any reasons for her vote, because there are no reasons, aside from solidarity with one of "her babies".

Now, her personal relationship with these other players doesn't matter to me and I don't have a problem with it. None of this is meant to be critical.

However, I believe it does indicate that Titus has no actual interest in finding scum and has no actual reason to believe that supercool is scum. And that we should be ignoring Titus when it comes to deciding who to lynch.

[bji]

And that we should be ignoring Titus when it comes to deciding who to lynch.

Sorry that came out wrong. We should be ignoring her supposed "convictions" on who to lynch. Titus could still be scum so that needs to be considered.

[bji]

However, I believe it does indicate that Titus has no actual interest in finding scum and has no actual reason to believe that supercool is scum. And that we should be ignoring Titus when it comes to deciding who to lynch.

Anti-town?
Scum?

I don't know. Titus hasn't done enough to even merit much of an opinion on that. I just feel like she's trying to add weight to Mala's position and it's possibly convincing others (such as RolePlay) and that people need to realize that there is no actual weight behind Titus' position.

[bji]

Also I do not mean to imply that Titus replaced in to "protect" Mala in this game, or that Titus knew Mala's alignment before she replaced in because she couldn't have. I just mean that Titus' actions are consistent with believing that one of her responsibilities is always to be supportive of certain other players. I want to believe that Titus has a better reason for her vote, but she refuses to give one.

[bji]

Some words are evil. I cannot use evil words.

The theory is bunk, it's literally total nonsense, and BJI is town.

Why bunk? Can you explain why Titus is voting supercool, when she gives no reasons?

Do you have a better explanation than mine for this?

Tell me our reads Mala.

[bji]

I just mean that Titus' actions are consistent with believing that one of her responsibilities is always to be supportive of certain other players.

Anti-town then.

At a minimum, yes.

[bji]

Also I do not mean to imply that Titus replaced in to "protect" Mala in this game, or that Titus knew Mala's alignment before she replaced in because she couldn't have. I just mean that Titus' actions are consistent with believing that one of her responsibilities is always to be supportive of certain other players. I want to believe that Titus has a better reason for her vote, but she refuses to give one.

I do have a reason..

You are right that I do feel like a den mother to Silverwolf. The other names I feel this way for are quite a few. None of them are in this game. If I taught someone how to play, I help them out. I want to leave MS better than I found it.

Why the ardent defense of supercool but without substantive reasons he could be town?

Burden of proof is on you, friend. You're the one on his wagon, not me.

[bji]

For the record, BJI's theory is that Titus wants to protect Fallen Angel from people attacking her.

So she votes Supercool.

Over me.

That's

genius

No. My theory is that Titus has no game-relevant reason to vote supercool, and I am exposing this information for the benefit of town.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're doing though, and it's not for the benefit of town.

[bji]

Some words are evil. I cannot use evil words.

The theory is bunk, it's literally total nonsense, and BJI is town.

Why bunk? Can you explain why Titus is voting supercool, when she gives no reasons?

Do you have a better explanation than mine for this?

Tell me our reads Mala.

I knew within 5 minutes Mala was probably town BC I knew her. Her reads give me a starting point.

Why do you suddenly care after I start pushing Supercool?

Because Frozen/RolePlay are the better choices and your buddying up with Mala is bad for town, that's why I care.

And in terms of timing, you were flying under my radar until I started seeing your wagon detracting from the actual scum wagon. Mala is out until further notice so I was leaving you two alone. But now that your presence is actively

bad

for town, I'm taking action.

pedit: supercool at L-1. Dwlee, what's with fake hammering before and not feeling it's even worth announcing L-1 now? The fuck?

[bji]

Oh yea, L-1. I didnt think to announce it, mb.
But you are just now commenting on the fake hammer?

What are you implying?

Also, you're wrong.

94
514

[bji]

@bji, so you were fine with me being up mala's ass and buddying her as long as I kept my mouth shut?

You were not a high priority since you weren't actively fucking up the game.

If these behaviors were scummy, why wait to highlight them?

Who said they were scummy? I said they were anti-town at worst. I am not making a scum case against you. I am discrediting your push on super, because I think discrediting your push best serves town interest.

[bji]

Cowbells I'll give you a fucking cookie if you hammer this scumfuck after that terrible fakeclaim.

How are you so sure this is a fake claim?

Super - where is the crumbing? Not that crumbing is evidence of anything of course, because it's just as easily faked as anything else. But I am curious.

[bji]

Cowbells I'll give you a fucking cookie if you hammer this scumfuck after that terrible fakeclaim.

How are you so sure this is a fake claim?

Super - where is the crumbing? Not that crumbing is evidence of anything of course, because it's just as easily faked as anything else. But I am curious.

Post 80. You don't really think I believed that did you?

Where are the other crumbs? You can't possibly just leave one ambiguous crumb like that and expect anyone to pick up on it.

[bji]

Hey ho. I'm on a skiing trip and am only going to be able to check in sporadically until next Tuesday evening.

I don't know what Titus thinks is so obviously town about RolePlay's end of day. She should explain.

In the meantime, nothing that has happened has changed my mind about Frozen and RolePlay,

except

that RolePlay is I think the better lynch choice after his end of day melodramatics. That dude does love to act.

Is there an actual case on Golden?

Is there any hope of getting RC to explain his vote on Titus?

As an aside RC, your avatar is super confusing. I always want to call you 'she'.

VOTE: RolePlay

[bji]

http://www.artsalive.ca/en/dan/dance101/whydance.asp

RC has no credibility in this game.

[bji]

I considered trying to push it without claiming but I feel like there's no way that's going to happen with how consistently people ignore my reads, so there you have it.

You never gave reads, and nobody ever ignored you because you never did anything. Your justification here for your actions is baseless.

You may be cop, you may not; but you sure do seem like your playing games instead of following through on a cop result.

Now, if you'd like me to believe your claim, perhaps you could walk me through the thought process that led you to finger Titus last night?

[bji]

I

n v

a

rious for

m

s

the

atrical dance

s

k

athak

I AM THE SK

Daykill on all players.

OK so you wanted to say "I am the SK" so you found some page that you could crumb it in, then you immediately pointed out where your crumb was? As if that's a more believable way to make the claim?

Again, you have no credibility this game. NONE.

[bji]

bji, ladies and gentlemen.

Indeed. First person to point out that you're completely full of shit, as is 100% self-evident via your play in this game, must be scum. Were you just waiting to call whoever responded to your bullshit scum?

pedit: Why do you think it was sarcasm? All that RC is doing is playing games to reduce the believability of her own claims. If she's cop, he'd want to be believable, wouldn't he? What would be the point of all of this noise, sarcasm or not? I think he's not serious. He's just fucking around to get his own jollies off. He's screwed around this entire game.

pedit to my pedit: What does "you've already been daykilled" even mean? I have to go look it up ..

[bji]

Everyone hear that I changed my gender identity at 10:53 today?

As I already pointed out, your avatar confuses me, on re-read of my post I noticed I was calling you she and I tried to correct it. But I didn't correct it properly. Mea culpa. However, if you'd get an avatar that doesn't present you as a 10 year old girl, that would make things easier for me. Kthx!

[bji]

Everyone hear that I changed my gender identity at 10:53 today?

As I already pointed out, your avatar confuses me, on re-read of my post I noticed I was calling you she and I tried to correct it. But I didn't correct it properly. Mea culpa. However, if you'd get an avatar that doesn't present you as a 10 year old girl, that would make things easier for me. Kthx!

Ah yes, the passive-agressive "sorry, but it's really your fault".

It was intentional. I thought we were riffing on sarcasm/fucking around/tongue-in-cheek bullshit etc here?

[bji]

RC's reply showed that he-who-wants-to-be-a-8-year-old-girl got it, anyway ...

[bji]

Point taken. We're toeing the line here between a legit argument and a snarkfest, though

Agreed. Back to the game. I would love to ask RC more about what he is trying to do, but I don't think I'll get a straight answer, and I believe that RC thinks that not giving straight answers is part of his "strategy" here, so it's hopeless. Let me say again that I don't believe his cop claim. Everything about how that went down smelled bad to me. The whole "nobody take my target to L-1, because I'm so afraid that Titus might actually be lynched and I have no idea if she's really scum" was a dead giveaway I thought. The whole stringing everyone along with promised reads that he had no intention of ever giving (otherwise, why not just give them? What all the melodrama surrounding giving the reads that people have been begging for since the first day of Day 1?), totally not believable. If RC is a cop, then I'm a freaking Mafia Godfather. 'nuff said.

[bji]

At least you're honest though.

I'm just as honest as you are. That's my point.

[bji]

That makes me wonder about your godfather claim.

I note that Titus kept saying you were scum D1 and at the end of the day in her final vote said that.

COULD IT BE that she was trying to bait an invest onto her scum partner who happened to, in fact, be godfather?

Seriously? You of all people are going to try to hold someone else to a bogus claim? Hilarious.

[bji]

I like how you just backed off on your cop claim though. Thus proving my point.

pedit: Because it sounds bad-ass? Is there any fake scum claim I could have made that you wouldn't have had the same reaction to?

[bji]

BTW, you're correct when you said I'm stalling.

I'm stalling to read you, BJI. no other reason.

Yeah. I don't believe that either.

If titus flips scum we're lynching Mario and Bji, now, sweet.

Why are you so eager to line up lynches for tomorrow and the next day? And based off of what evidence? RC's easy-to-see-through farce and my obviously fake claim?

[bji]

You're missing the point.

You are going to die tonight anyway, if you have anything to share you might as well share it now.

Role fishing. Town, ask yourself: what benefit could it have for FA to make a claim here? RC fakes a cop claim to try to get Titus lynched. Clearly it's not going to happen, so when that fails he backs off and tries to use it as an opportunity to doubtcast me. And for bonus points, why not try to get FA to reveal her role?

Lynch all liars. RC has proven to be a liar over and over again. His presence is only confusing things for town, which is probably the overall intention of his fake claim to begin with. Ask yourself: do you feel that RC's fake claim helped to clarify things for town, or just provided noise and uncertainty?

And let me reiterate: I am not a mafia godfather, or a mafia anything. That was my attempt, perhaps ill-conceived, to point out how ridiculous RC's cop claim was. And it was ridiculous, and I think that's obvious; why would a real cop ask that nobody put the supposedly fingered target at L-1? Why would a real cop ask that everyone wait until some "reads" are posted before lynching the target, and so obviously string us along by giving excuses instead of the reads? RC would have already had his reads ready to go if he really was cop and knew he was going to out himself. And why would a real cop out themselves immediately at the beginning of day 2? Such a transparent fake claim.

Given how RC played day 1, it was my conclusion that he simply likes to fuck with games. How did any of his fake claiming day 1 help town? And the fake cop claim, it just adds noise.

However, RC seems to be emboldened by town's failure to act to make more obvious scum plays. Like fishing for roles.

Let me remind you of who hammered our doctor, by the way.

UNVOTE: RolePlay
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[bji]

Pffff bji.

Lynch all liars is bullshit and you know it.

Is it? It's what I've been told over and over again by more experienced players. Town lying generally can only create confusion and sow doubt, so town generally doesn't lie. If the outcome of the lie is demonstrably positive for town, then I guess that could be considered a mitigating factor. But I'm failing to see the positive outcome of RC's actions in this game.

Doctor lynched? Check.
Soak up everyone's time Day 2 discussing a fake claim? Check.

pedit: Where does FA claim that?

[bji]

I just knew RC was not the cop. I don't know if he is town or not as an information ... I just felt his act makes him likely town [ sorry ]

Please explain. How does RC's act "make him likely town"?

Do you think that fake claims are in general town behavior?

Have you ever fake claimed as town (and not at L-1, I mean unprompted like that)?

[bji]

Well first I wasn't thinking properly. I played with scum RC before. He won't risk that attention on himself when he is scum.

Do you think that gaming his meta is beyond RC's capability?

Also, what risk? He got away with whatever badness you thought would ensue from his fake claim. You're giving him a free pass apparently. Could he have counted on that do you think?

pedit: I believe town fake claims happen. Your example is evidence of that. But what you describe is very different from what RC did. RC's claim had the chance of getting someone lynched. RC couldn't control whether or not a quicklynch could result from that. So he must have at least been OK with Titus being lynched. Now, if he's not a real cop and doesn't know whether or not Titus is scum, then that's a pretty risky chance to take. And now after the fact he's claiming that he actively

didn't

want Titus lynched. That's inconsistent. At least pick your top scum read. That seems like the most rational way to do it. And finally, after all of that, what could RC expect the best outcome to be? That some truth would present itself that would help town make the best lynch choice? And that this truth would be crystal clear for town even though it was pulled through the mud of a fake claim and the associated fear and doubt?

[bji]

These are contradictory.

Mine wasn't even a claim. It was just a figure of speech used to make a point. Yours was a claim. There is no contradiction.

[bji]

No one is treating your Godfather point like a claim.

I'm saying that it's incredibly bizarre that you chose to say Godfather as opposed to say Mafioso or Goon.

Overly specific, you might say.

Have you seen the movies? The Godfather is like, the king of the mafia. It was chosen to emphasize the point.

He points out all that it was a transparent claim because of the lengths I went to to avoid Titus being inadvertently lynched and then later says that I was risking a quicklynch even though I took all measures to prevent one.

I said it was transparent because no actual cop would do it like that. And yes, a hammer could have happened because of your actions. Maybe that wasn't a likely outcome, not because of your "threats", but just because people don't generally rush into these things so early in the day. But it was a possibility.

[bji]

What? It doesn't matter what your role is now. If you state that you are claiming something, mafia is going to kill you tonight. It's far more beneficial for town if you actually claim now. Anyone who thinks me or RC are rolefishing on this, just think about it.

I see your point; although at this point I doubt I would believe FA's claim anyway.

Ugh this game. I don't even want to comment on the last page other than to say I have never been in such a terrible game. Either RC and FA are both great scum-actors, or they are playing the sloppiest (whether intentional or not) games of town I have ever seen.

I agree, but I believe that these things don't just happen by chance. I think that the mafia team is actively working to sow this confusion, which is why my vote is on RC. Can you explain why you think FA is the better lynch choice? Is it just residual conviction left over from yesterday, or something that happened today?

I find it weird that RolePlay has disappeared after working at such a frantic pace day 1.

Mod, can we please get a prod on RolePlay?

It was on my list of things to do when I got a break. I will do it now

[bji]

Ah. I think I may finally have figured something out. Let's examine these posts:

If she's cop then town already has her result if she dies.
If she's cop and lives, then she gets another investigate.

If she's not, then she eats a NK and a potential mislynch dies.
If she's not and lives, then she claims tomorrow that she was wifoming and it doesn't change anything.

There's no reason for her to claim.

pedit : I'm gonna seriously kill myself after this game ...

If you say that again I'm replacing out.

Please.

I need you to claim.

VOTE: FA

Can anyone think of a reason that RC would say that there is no reason for FA to claim, but also that he needs her to claim?

Now, once you've figured that one out, who thinks that this is sincere, and who thinks this was just a trick? And, for those who think it was a trick, who thinks it was scum motivated and who thinks it was town motivated?

Bonus question: how does this make you feel about Frozen Angel's refusal to claim?

This is very important!

RC: Remind me of why you picked Titus?

[bji]

BJI, if I was scum you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of lynching me ever, so if you're town you can just stop.

No offense man, but if you've invested some of your self-worth into your ability to lord your mafiascum prowess over the less experienced ... that's kind of sad.

That being said, your actions post-fake-claim are making more sense to me now. I think.

[bji]

FA, why did you target RC last night? Can you explain your reasoning there?

[bji]

FA, what's your read on BJI now?

Well if she's going to explain her read, she might as well have all the facts.

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells
VOTE: Frozen Angel

[bji]

FA, what's your read on BJI now?

Well if she's going to explain her read, she might as well have all the facts.

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells
VOTE: Frozen Angel

What's all this now?

I think I see what you're doing. I could still be wrong, but meh.

[bji]

I think I see what you're doing. I could still be wrong, but meh.

Which makes me lean scum on you, by the way, for reasons you may have already realized.

I'm afraid I'm not that sharp. But I have no doubt that I'll find out sooner or later; it's pretty obvious that you're trying to drum up support for a wagon on me.

[bji]

Wow. Well, that's not quite what I thought you were doing.

Did you really target Titus?

[bji]

Oh. I've never played with it before. I thought that it was always combined with a targeting role. The wiki makes it sound that way.

pedit: I'm too dense to understand how FA's reaction mod confirms Titus as town. Must read more ...

[bji]

And the whole BJI situation, who probably picked up on my cop breadcrumbs and assumed I was that, yet was voting me?

Hell, the false trail I left was an inno on BJI, and he was scumreading me for it?

BJI what exactly was going through your head this entire day phase? Walk me through.

THE FOLLOWING IS A WALL. Sorry to piss people off. But when you ask for my thought process RC, I'm going to give it. In great detail. It's just how I roll.

I am V/LA and only have limited segments of each day to read/respond. I will be out of V/LA by tomorrow. I have been reading the thread but it's hard to keep up. It's clear though that RC is trying to position either Titus or me for a lynch.

First, I did not pick up on any RC cop crumbs or whatever. I have never picked up on a crumb in any game I've ever played and I expect it would be some time before I'd ever have the experience to do so. I also think that crumbing is kind of a dumb idea but that's a discussion for another time.

Second, I never picked up on any false trail that was an inno on me. I don't really even know what something like that would look like.

Now, as to what was going through my head, it's quite simple: I did read your fake claim but for the reasons I already stated, it looked like bunk to me. I decided that you were either scum faking it to try to get Titus lynched, or really were town but were trying some kind of gambit. Either way, I thought it was important that people not believe you, because if you're scum, well the reason is obvious, but if you're town, then the whole thing just kind of pissed me off. Your play day 1 pissed me off, it gave me the feeling of a player who didn't really care about the game and was just fucking around. I genuinely believed that you may be playing the game just for your own jollies, not paying attention, and mostly just reveling in the confusion you could cause. Then the fake claim I thought looked like more of the same, and it pissed me off. So I decided to challenge you on it.

Then it felt like because I challenged you on it, you decided to choose me as your next target. Although this was irritating it also made me start to maybe come around on choosing the town option on you. I couldn't figure out why it would benefit you to switch to me like that, because it required that you give up on your fake claim "early" when it still had legs. That made your actions seem more legitimate. Still a gambit and still irritating because you're playing with town's patience, but at least it had town motivation.

Then you got into the whole back and forth with Titus and to a lesser extent FA and it get really boring to read. But I read it anyway, and in doing so, I noticed that you both explained how there is no reason for FA to hard claim, but a few posts later, also said that you really

needed

her to hard claim. Something about that just struck me as odd, and I puzzled over it. I came to the conclusion that you were trying to get her to claim because you had some role that she might also claim which would allow you to know that she was faking. I thought it was an actual role, and you thought that maybe she was going to claim it, and you just needed her to hard claim it for your trap to be successful. I did not think of something like a modifier like ascetic, which I wasn't even aware of until you said it and I had to go look it up.

With regards to trying to build a case against me, I see that it's mostly association with Titus, plus you really did believe that I claimed mafia godfather because apparently that fits into some theory of association between me and Titus.

There is no association between me and Titus

. And that fake claim I did was just to try to make a point, I was pissed off about what I thought was you fucking around with town and I went too far to try to make my point. If I really was mafia I would never actually claim it like that, there would be no benefit to doing so and it would just be stupid. And my point anyway was that I thought you were

not

a cop, which made the "if you are a cop, then I am a mafia" clearly not mean that I was claiming mafia. I mean, "if A, then B; not A" is not an assertion that B is true.

The thing I don't understand, is why you (RC) are so ready to accept FA's reversal of her claim to know that you had a role. To be honest when you go back and forth on people so frequently (FA is guilty; FA is innocent; Titus is mod confirmed town; Titus is scum) I really don't know what to believe about what you think because at any moment, you might just do a 180.

I am going to keep my vote on FA. I already had her as a top scum read on Day 1 and Day 2 hasn't shown me anything to change my feelings on her. Additionally, I see no reason to forgive her fake soft claiming + fake claiming to know RC's role so easily. And furthermore, whereas RC looks like he's actually working hard to make cases, FA continues to just kind of tread water and look like she wants to avoid being lynched, including using appeals to emotion where it might help.

[bji]

RC was right about one thing: the quick wagon/hammer on him was awful. We had plenty of time left. Someone explain to me how that happened.

Someone also explain to me how two days in a row, RolePlay was instrumental in: weakening the wagon on FA when it got to L-2/L-1, and immediately driving the counter wagon to a mislynch?

RolePlay posts 925, 933, and 938 look to me like spreading doubt on the Frozen Angel wagon that was at L-2 at the time. Not to mention the whole begging Keyser to give him a reason to leave the FA wagon which I already mentioned soon after it happened. Then RolePlay joins the Supercool wagon, hard; we all saw how anxious he was to get super lynched at the end of Day 1.

In Day 2, RolePlay started out lumping RC and FA together. See post 1478 where his town reads are "Mario Maker. Cow. FA. RC. Titus." They're right next to each other. RolePlay made many statements indicating that he believed that both RC and FA were town who fake claimed (posts 1483 and 1484). RolePlay also clearly stated that Lynch All Liars cannot be applied mindlessly (see post 1797, and even did a nice little flip-flop on FA to demonstrate this (post 1595, followed by post 1604, where he states that he

doesn't do policy lynches

)). But then RolePlay

drives hard on a lynch of RC

solely for

lynch all liars

which is a

policy lynch

.

Now consider the end of Day 2 theatrics between RC and RolePlay. RC we know was town, and had a good reason to be frustrated because he was quickly mislynched without being given an opportunity to defend himself (although I think we can all say that he brought it on himself with that awful gambit). What reason did RolePlay have to be so vitriolic? Could be frustrated town right? But why lash out so hard at RC when he himself was part of the problem by not following his own stated policy of not doing policy lynches?

RolePlay had essentially the same reason to vote FA and RC (because both were fake claiming). He had them both right next to each other during his "these two are town fake claiming" period. But instead of going after FA, he defended her and went after RC, then acted pissed off beyond any possible rational level of human behavior to cover himself going into Day 3.

RolePlay is either scum or the worst town ever, and he didn't look inexperienced/dumb enough to me to be the worst town ever.

VOTE: itlepip

Also, I think it goes without saying, but no quick lynches please. We have seen how those have worked out.

[bji]

I'm FUCKING town.

That's the greatest hole in your reason bji.

That's called "begging the question". You can't use "I'm town" as the reason why ... you're town. RolePlay's actions towards you have been really weird. If you really are town, how do you explain it?

I'm sure Acryon is scum atm and I'm leaning on you being his partner.

Well that's not surprising, as you pretty much OMGUS any time you are called scum.

Okay, I don't see any glaring issues with this case/scum intent behind it. I honestly don't know what RP was doing or what was going through his mind, and I have a very different style of play from him. At the same time I don't like the timing of this case right at a point where you aren't going to get a real response. A lot of the accusations are about why he was angry or why he did something. I can't answer any of those. I will point out that the whole case requires a scum FA, which I haven't been convinced of and would be a much more useful case given that people can actually respond to it.

So I don't understand alot of what you wrote here.

When you say "I don't see any glaring issues with this case/scum intent behind it" are you talking about the case I just made against RolePlay? So you're saying that you don't see anything wrong with my case against your slot???

When you say "At the same time I don't like the timing of this case right at a point when you aren't going to get a real response" are you saying the timing of my case against RolePlay? Check it out yo, I made cases against RolePlay before. The fact that his behavior has been so consistent is the crux of my vote on him. And when else am I supposed to time my case, am I supposed to ignore the clear reads I am getting on the RolePlay slot? Is his slot supposed to get a free pass because he got himself force replaced out?

The whole case does require scum FA,

or

scum RolePlay that didn't care if FA got lynched or some other town player, and who maybe also didn't mind creating this obvious association between his slot and FA's. Either way, Role looks pretty bad.

[bji]

UNVOTE: itlepip
VOTE: Malakittens

While I think that itlepip is still the best lynch choice for today given what we know thus far, I really think that we need to start getting the lurkers involved. We're one mislynch away from LYLO and it's ridiculous that we have some players that have lurked through this game without contributing much of anything. Mala's slot is at the top of that list (both she and her replacement were the lurkiest lurkers of the game). However, TheCow and golden get special mention for not even posting in the last 7 and 8 days, respectively.

Every active player that has been lynched thus far as been town. This suggests to me that some of the lurkers are likely scum. This would help explain why town has been derping so hard, it's easy to derp when most/all of the game has been TvT.

Lurkers, you are on notice: you need to contribute to this game. Do something useful.

[bji]

I'm not talking about him being optimal. I'm talking about him being manipulative , using logical fallacies , hiding behind someone else to vote and a clear role fishing.

HE is SCUM

Well I'm not sure if you want to hear from me since at one point you thought that I was a scum partner with Acryon (do you still think so? You seem to have changed your case to an Acryon/MM team), but I

think

your case against Acryon is:

1. He agreed with my associative theory putting you and RolePlay as a scum team based on your Day 1 interactions.
2. He, like RC, tried to push you to hard claim.

If there's more, please tell me, because these two points do not convince me, as follows:

Regarding point 1: Your interaction with RolePlay

was

weird. Although on Day 1 I could see what looked like you two subtly interacting, I haven't seen it since,

except

in how RolePlay has treated your wagons; but I admit that this is something that RolePlay could be doing on his own as scum trying to make you look bad. Either way, I don't see anything scummy about Acryon agreeing with my theory, because I still see weird interactions there, and why wouldn't Acryon agree? To be frank, I'm kind of frustrated that

more

people haven't seen that interaction and agreed with my interpretation of it.

Regarding point 2: Have you considered that perhaps Acryon has a role and was just as interested as RC in getting you to claim for the same reasons as RC? Note that I'm not asking Acryon to reveal if this is true or not, but the fact that it's a possibility that you don't even seen to have recognized is ... weird.

I looked back at your ISO to see if you had some points on Acryon that I hadn't considered, and this stood out:

Your post 1017:

Supercool role fish. Acryon bandwagon. Supercool jump on me base of nothing. Acryon Jump on me behind someone else. I ask Acryon why,Supercool answers it. people asks about Supercools behavior , Acryon answers them. Super cool never had a strong scum read. Acryon never had a strong scum read.



If I'm wrong about both of them being scum together I'm sure I'm right about at least one of them.

Surely you realize that this is very unconvincing at this point. Super flipped town, so clearly they weren't working together, at least not as a mafia team. This evidence is now reduced from mafia-mafia cooperation to scum-Acryon shadowing town-Super. Viewed in that light, it just looks like normal/random interaction that you might find between any two players. And "If I'm wrong about both of them being scum together I'm sure I'm right about at least one of them" is not compelling logic. It's not even a reason for anyone else to suspect Acryon, it's just a re-statement of how much you wanted to lynch one of Super or Acryon back before Super had even flipped.

Also that search results thing where you were trying to draw evidence from word counts in ISOs was just bad math.

Like I said, if you have good reasons for voting Acryon, please point them out, as I can't find them.

@MM

:

Every

vote count has you on a golden wagon except the end of Day 2 votes where you alternated between Frozen Angel and RadiantCowbells. With all that has happened, how do you justify such narrow reads, and how do you justify coming to life with your votes only when Frozen and RC were close to a lynch? Now that your lynch of RC was shown to be a mislynch, why are you back on that tired golden wagon instead of the FA wagon that you were more recently on?

@golden

: Where the hell are you? And, what do you think of the fact the MM has basically tunneled his vote on you the entire game?

@Dwlee99

: You've got 162 posts, and yet I can't recall you ever making a significant contribution. You have had votes all over the place, and without a lot of explanation for any of them. Since the beginning of Day 2, you've done nothing but sheep RC, even doing so after RC is dead. Explain exactly why you are so ready to sheep RC? And, do you have a strong feeling about anyone besides whoever RC was most suspicious of?

@itlepip

: You've promised more than you have delivered. In your most recent post (two days ago), you said that you hadn't finished reading yet. Well, have you finished? Do you maybe have something to add to the game, a vote even?

@acryon

: What changed your mind about FA/RolePlay in Day 2 and 3, such that you'd rather go after MM than either of them? Also, why were you so ready to accept that FA's vanilla town claim was more believable than her "I have a role but I'm not hard claiming it" story?

@TheCow

: You said: "scum flip on RC would make me think Titus will be town. The scum team being noted seems passable as well. Town RC flip will make me have to reevaluate me entire world view. Maybe I'll even adopt a religion." And you said: "Don't worry I shall go full cow-mode when the time comes.". Are these empty promises? Where is your re-evaluation? What is "full cow-mode" anyway?

@Mala

: what do you think of FA's case against Acryon? Be specific. What do you think of the RC and FA claim war? Be specific.

[bji]

@Dwlee99

: You've got 162 posts, and yet I can't recall you ever making a significant contribution. You have had votes all over the place, and without a lot of explanation for any of them. Since the beginning of Day 2, you've done nothing but sheep RC, even doing so after RC is dead. Explain exactly why you are so ready to sheep RC? And, do you have a strong feeling about anyone besides whoever RC was most suspicious of?

I trust RC's ability to scumhunt, and I don't have many strong feelings. You're probably town from this post and I think frozen is town (but I guess that's RCs read), no one else makes any impression on me.

This late in the game, this is all you have? A single post of mine makes you think I'm town, you're sheeping RC on his read of FA (and apparently MM), and you have no opinions on anyone else? You're clearly lurking and just posting enough to make it look like you are not.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Dwlee

[bji]

Wtf else do I have to base a read off of? I am struggling to get reads on everyone because no one is fricking talking, including yourself.

Let's all take note that Dwlee doesn't think that 79 pages of content is enough to form his own reads.

[bji]

I'm seriously disappointed in this town. all the posts I see are from the ones who I think are probable scums and dweele.

I was reading both Super and Acryon as scums then and yeah I found its very probable to both of them being scum. I just made a mistake about what super was trying to hide. (I said I'm sure your nervous and you have something to hide - like several times)

and I posted my reasons TODAY why are you going back to day 1? he DEFINETLY role fished in day 2. he DEFINITELY just hide behind you to get a lynch done. and he DEFINITELY started to use logical fallacies to show me and RC both scums.

I went back to Day 1 because I was trying to figure out what all of the elements of your case is. Did you forget that you were trying to link supercool and acryon Day 1?

Role fishing is a bullshit accusation. I have never seen role fishing happen and I have no idea why scum would even try it. You can't fish a role claim out of someone just by asking or pressuring them, it takes a L-1 vote and Acryon wasn't even voting you as a means to get that claim. And if you had already soft claimed that you had a role, you were already enough of a target for scum that a scum Acryon would have little to gain by pushing you to claim what the role actually was.

Furthermore, you actually baited town further and further as you continued to obfuscate your claim in Day 2. Eventually you backed off from any claim at all, which you could have done at any time and had you done sooner, maybe we would have picked someone other than the town cop to lynch.

I just don't get how you can blame anyone else for trying to press you to end the soft claim madness that was clearly distracting everyone. Perhaps you can explain what you thought would have been so bad about retracting your "drunken soft claim"

before

forcing RC to out himself as ascetic?

Reading through Acryon's ISO for yesterday, I don't see where the logical fallacies showing you and RC as both scum were. Can you point them out?

Quite simply I think that we need to focus on lynching actual scum, and I don't think Acryon is the best choice, not even close. If you can give me some reasons that are even remotely compelling, then I'll reconsider. In the meantime, we need to get the lurkers to participate so that we can sort out the scum from the town in those slots.

Or we could just lynch itlepip, because RolePlay's scumminess has not washed off that slot, not in the least.

[bji]

yeah blame me for RC second fake claim which made us lynch him. You can easily do that bji.

That's not what I said. I blamed you for extending the gambit by continuing to hold to a fake claim instead of just admitting you fake claimed and bringing some order to that chaotic situation. And now you are trying to blame Acryon because he pressured you to complete your claim (or disclaim it, we all knew that was an option too).

I wasn't expecting RC to be asectic , I didn't knew such a role even exists. so yeah I think I could just keep it silent. RC had a good reason to push me , Acryon had no damn reason.

And now you're acting like it's the ascetic part that made your actions wrong.

You claimed to have a result on RC

. Even if there was no ascetic, there were all number of ways that could screw things up. First, any cop, regardless of ascetic, would be instantly suspicious of you because you had by that point claimed to be some kind of cop. Second, if RC had been lynched and had been a regular cop, you'd be looking really bad. If you're scum then awesome job getting yourself lynched in a gambit, but if you're town, well then that's not helping anything. Third, you had set yourself up to be pressured to reveal your information on RC and if RC had not been lynched and it could not be confirmed, then you'd basically have spread false information that doesn't help anything. And, there are probably many more ways that this could screw things up that I'm not even thinking of.

As to the positives of your actions ... what were they? I guess you were hoping for a repeat of that awesome experience you had in that one game you linked to where your fake claim "worked"?

Role fishing don't exist *shrugs* ... look how our PR's are dead and tell me that again.

This is like, a complete non-point. Show me the places where role fishing contributed to anyone's death (and note that you are claiming role fishing against yourself but you are not dead, so that's an explicit counterexample).

another PR does a weird gambit and gets himself lynched and then on top of that he only got a green check in a game where it seems quite possible the scum have a godfather.

Explain this please. RC confirmed my town alignment. My stupid attempt at making a point should not factor in. And if it does, then I guess I have screwed town nearly as hard as RC/FA have due to my careless wording bringing doubt onto the one solid piece of information that we do have in this game.

[bji]

I don't want Cow, an active lurker who has given less than the others halves, in LYLO for the WIFOM alone. Even though the WIFOM is pretty obviously planted intentionally.

At this point in the game, we need more than this kind of weak reasoning. We need to have strong reasons for a vote, and this isn't one. Tomorrow we're in LYLO if we don't lynch scum tonight.

Going back to ancient history, this is the reason that RolePlay's post 925 was stupid. Lynching town is not free, you only have so many "misses" before you're in a bad position, and we get one more miss before we're in that bad position.

[bji]

I don't want Acryon who is obviously scum anywhere in this game so my case is pretty much more convincing

You have to try harder to make a compelling case. Just saying it over and over again is doing nothing. Do you understand that there are

two

parts to being a good town player?

1. Making good reads.
2. Convincing others that your good reads are good reads.

So what if you are sure you've done (1). You're not doing (2) very well.

pedit: OK FA, you'll have to walk me through that with quotes. Because I recall RC having to out himself as ascetic because you claimed to "know his role". Only then did you backtrack on all claims.

I believe that you are ashamed of it. But I don't understand why you are using the fact that others pushed you to put up or shut up on that, as evidence that they're scum, when you yourself admit that it would have been better to not have done it at all, and either completing the claim or disclaiming it was the next best thing to not having done it.

Regarding your third point, I'll look more closely at Acryon's supposed attempt to get a claim from RC, I didn't see it so clearly in realtime with everything else going on and I didn't know you were referring to it. But full disclosure, I already stated that I think that "role fishing" is a very weak accusation, as I've already pointed out.

[bji]

OK I read all of Acryon's ISO from Day 2 onwards and I see absolutely zero attempt to get RC to fully claim. Please quote it for me because I guess I'm too dumb to see it.

[bji]

He fucking pressured me to get me cc'd or counter claimed. IT WAS FUCKING OBVIOUS. what the hell are you talking about?

Well now you completely confused me. We were arguing about whether or not Acryon's attempt to get you to complete your claim was scummy, and then you said that your case against Acryon is really because he tried to get RC to fully claim, and then when I asked about that, you are now responding that it's all about his attempt to get you to claim again.

You are doing a

terrible

job of making your case here. Like, the worst ever. Please step back, think hard about how to present your case against Acryon in a clear way that has any chance whatsoever of convincing anyone, and don't post again until you have it all nailed down, with i's dotted and t's crossed.

He didn't expect that I would claim VT. He thought he can lynch 1 of me/RC and kill the other at night.

RC did get lynched. But you didn't get night killed. So what does that say about your supposed motivations for acryon's actions?

pedit: are you kidding me?

RC said he had an inno result on me after his lynch

. Whatever he said about Titus was just more fake claiming, that was completely obvious. He can't have gotten results on

TWO

players.

[bji]

I don't want Cow, an active lurker who has given less than the others halves, in LYLO for the WIFOM alone. Even though the WIFOM is pretty obviously planted intentionally.

At this point in the game, we need more than this kind of weak reasoning. We need to have strong reasons for a vote, and this isn't one. Tomorrow we're in LYLO if we don't lynch scum tonight.

Going back to ancient history, this is the reason that RolePlay's post 925 was stupid. Lynching town is not free, you only have so many "misses" before you're in a bad position, and we get one more miss before we're in that bad position.

How do you EVER hope to read TC, apart from the scummy WIFOM planted? He admitted to active-lurking totally. That's immediately more scummy than your Dwlee case already.

Oh I agree that there is a foul odor coming from our pile of lurkers. But I do not yet know exactly from whom the stench is eminating. These fuckers need to actually participate in the game that they joined. My patience is wearing thin.

[bji]

How does this game get going again? I find it hard to believe that golden, TheCow, Mala, and itlepip have been physically unable to post for days and days now. They are choosing not to post. Why are they choosing not to post? Have they given up on the game? Will they ever come back? Do we still have a mod?

[bji]

I want to kill every lurker. POLICY LYNCH FOR ALL YOU LOSERS.

UNVOTE: Dwlee99
VOTE: golden009 x 1000
VOTE: Itlepip x 1000
VOTE: TheCow x 1000
VOTE: Malakittens x 1000

[bji]

itlepip didn't pick up his prod. I'll be looking for a replacement for him.

Cripes who is going to want to replace into this game? It's at 80+ pages already. I had high hopes that itlepip was actually going to be a superhero but he was more of a superdud.

FA, bji, you guys interested in a golden wagon? arc isn't dying today, there aren't the votes.

I want all of the lurkers to make some effort and I'll try to sort them based on that. In the meantime, their ISOs are so small that I guess I can read them and give some opinions ...

golden: The only weird thing in his early game was how interested he was in dwlee's faked quickhammer and then how little he actually pushed on dwlee for it or pursued it at all. But golden clearly wasn't interested in doing any hard thinking this game so ... could be explained by that. Also I don't like how he said "I can't get much of a read on Dwlee" in post 175 despite basically having done very little to try to actively get dwlee to talk. That's a fairly incongruous position. Aide from that, he didn't seem very interested. I got the feeling that he was skimming posts, and commenting on whatever popped out at him without really putting much thought into anything. Useless slot, but not necessarily scum. Without more participation though I guess we'll never know, until he is lynched/killed or end-gamed.

TheCow: minor participation. Felt like he was putting a little more effort in than golden, but not a whole lot more. However, on reread TheCow's interactions with both lynched players is really bad:

95: "supercool898 is half way between lost and confused town, and scum for me right now." What? How can a player be halfway between lost and confused town, but still scum? And in the end, he

was

town. So this looks like an opportunistic (and clumsy) effort to justify voting for someone that TheCow knew was town but wanted to vote for anyway. In the end he voted supercool with no explanation at L-3 which is a very comfy place to park a vote with little suspicion, and left it there until super was mislynched. Never explained the vote at all, ever.

1291: "titus wagon was full of lulz, counter wagon was full of tears and thats all of the productive input from me for the next two weeks folks" So TheCow is basically saying that he doesn't intend to read/participate in the next two weeks (presumably due to the holidays) because he won't be giving "productive input". However, he joined the quickwagon on RC and hammered that slot just a few days later. This implies that he either a) was lying about whether or not he was going to be reading/participating, and had been reading really closely and made careful considerations of his vote, or b) didn't read carefully and just decided to quickhammer RC. I personally feel it is much more likely to be (b) due to the subsequent postings by TheCow that indicate that he isn't reading and doesn't care much.

Yeah TheCow is looking really bad to me right now. He's been just sliding through basically unnoticed, except to contribute to the first mislynch, and also to suddenly be confident enough about his reading of the game to quickhammer RC. That's the kind of thing I can totally see a scum who doesn't really want to play and doesn't mind being a "sacrificial" member of the scum team whose only major contribution was to get on mislynch wagons and to quickhammer experienced town players.

Malakittens: second least participatory member. Who was the very least participatory member? Diego, the slot that she took over. How strange that the same slot should have gotten the two least participatory members in the game. At this point, with so little go on in from her posts, it's hard to try to draw any conclusion that wouldn't just be pure speculation along the lines of "scum happy to watch the mislynches happen without even having to lift a finger".

OK so at this point in the game, and until someone else actually contributes something that changes my mind, my top two lynch candidates for the day are: the RolePlay/itlepip slot, and TheCow. If anyone has a preference for who we should lynch between those two, please say so. At this time I prefer TheCow.

VOTE: TheCow

[bji]

VC is up, Cow is being prodded

You do realize that golden hasn't posted in like 10 days right?

[bji]

@Bji
I'm not interested in lynching a greencheck unless we get one or preferably two scumflips that aren't Godfather, but you're not totally off the hook.
Please make an argument for who I should be voting for.

You should vote for TheCow. You can find all of my reasoning against TheCow in post 2018.

Also,

how come when Aqua posts questions everyone answers them, but when I did the same in post 1960 I was mostly ignored?

The strength of my convictions against FA is waning. It's just hard to see scumFA working as hard as she is, and her play, although somewhat full of OMGUS, does give off a very sincere vibe. That weakens my case against RolePlay also, because alot of that case dealt with how RolePlay treated FA wagons. There is still the possibility that RolePlay was trying to set FA up with an association that would make her look really bad when RolePlay flipped scum.

I do not buy FA's case against Acryon, I think it's basically misguided, and heavily based on OMGUS reactions. I find her case against MM more intriguing though as I previously hinted at with my question to him (which went unanswered BTW) in post 1960.

I still want to hear more from golden and Mala. Golden has given up on the game, Mala keeps promising stuff and never delivers. I would lynch Mala before golden, I would lynch RolePlay before Mala, and I would lynch TheCow before anyone.

[bji]

@bji

, something I just noticed:

95: "supercool898 is half way between lost and confused town, and scum for me right now." What? How can a player be halfway between lost and confused town, but still scum? And in the end, he

was

town. So this looks like an opportunistic (and clumsy) effort to justify voting for someone that TheCow knew was town but wanted to vote for anyway. In the end he voted supercool with no explanation at L-3 which is a very comfy place to park a vote with little suspicion, and left it there until super was mislynched. Never explained the vote at all, ever.

I read TheCow's sentence there as:

"supercool898 is halfway between {lost and confused town} and {scum} for me right now."

It's still not a very convincing scumread but not quite as bad as your interpretation of the sentence would suggest. Cow's vote for supercool also came a long time later, though I haven't worked out why he voted then (unless it was a sheep of Mala's vote).

Just some food for thought. I still want to talk to Acryon and I'm not in a hurry to push a lynch until all the replacements are in.

Good point, I hadn't thought to interpret it that way, but I see what you mean. The comma should not be in that sentence for it to have the meaning you ascribed, but I suspect it was just a grammatical error because the way you interpreted it is more consistent with TheCow's vote.

Still, that was the

only

bit of justification that TheCow gave for his vote on super, and it wasn't really a reason as much as foreshadowing the vote.

I also would like to see some activity from the replacements before proceeding. We got a bit from Marcrell but it hasn't really changed my opinion of that slot.

[bji]

So this game has become nearly completely static.

FA - I'm not buying what you're selling vs. Acryon. Did it ever occur to you that your case is entirely based on how Acryon interacted with

you

. Clearly nobody else took as much umbrage to your tussles with Acryon as you did. You need to find something else productive to do besides repeatedly saying "lynch Acryon" a couple of times per day.

If

someone can come up with something convincing against Acryon, then we can start a wagon there. But FA's case alone just isn't doing it for me.

Aquanim has come in and tried to take the reins of town leader. But nothing that Aquanim has done has removed my scum read on that slot. I would lynch this slot today as a second choice to the TheCow/Marcrell slot.

Really not much has happened today to change my reads at all; the only major event for me was doing a re-read of TheCow's ISO and realizing how scummy his wagon interactions were. Which is why he remains my top scum read. And the game is moving at a snail's pace as the replacements (understandably) cannot digest 84 pages of history to form reads, and the rest of us have mostly said everything that we wanted to say in those 84 pages already. Stalemate.

I do not think that we should just pick a lurker to lynch, but if we do, I nominate Mala. The complete lack of production from this slot is almost inexcusable at this point.

[bji]

@Acryon:

Can you maybe explain why you're not scum reading FA anymore? She is right in that you have definitely slung alot of mud her way over the course of Day 1 and Day 2, and you did say at one point that you thought either RC or FA was scum. Well we know RC was not scum. So why aren't you voting FA now?

[bji]

Also, can I just point out how bad Marcrell's first few posts are.

"I knew I was replacing into a game with 84 pages, but I decided not to read them all. Let's just lynch golden since he's not playing.

"What Mario, you still want to lynch me? OK then, OMGUS vote Mario."

"Oh I decided to read Mario's ISO after all and maybe he isn't scum."

@Marcrell:

what do you think of my case against the RolePlay slot (currently Aquanim)?

[bji]

...
Aquanim has come in and tried to take the reins of town leader. But nothing that Aquanim has done has removed my scum read on that slot. I would lynch this slot today as a second choice to the TheCow/Marcrell slot.

Noted. Not much else for me to say to that.

...
Really not much has happened today to change my reads at all; the only major event for me was doing a re-read of TheCow's ISO and realizing how scummy his wagon interactions were. Which is why he remains my top scum read. And the game is moving at a snail's pace as the replacements (understandably) cannot digest 84 pages of history to form reads, and the rest of us have mostly said everything that we wanted to say in those 84 pages already. Stalemate.

I believe the game will move again when the last replacement is in. There is little good and some harm in making waves before that point. (In particular, seeing what they make of the game without benefit of seeing which way the wind is blowing will be valuable.)

Well if you can't defend your slot, then can you tell me why you don't want to lynch TheCow? Look at his wagon interaction. It's filthy.

[bji]

Re: Aquanim post 2111. This was a good effort at explaining RolePlay's actions. I cannot say that I a 100% convinced by this defense because there is alot of interpretation of RolePlay's motives that could go either way, but you did make good points all around. I'm happy to push TheCow's wagon over yours today.

Re: Aquanim post 2112. You are very clearly asking that the game be put on hold until golden's replacement. OK I guess that's fair ... but now the game is dead while we wait for golden.

Re: Frozen Angel post 2116. What a turnaround from acting so sorry for your "drunk fake soft claim" actions on Day 2, to now belligerently stating that you are above reproach ("I don't care what you think of my play"). Also, how anti-town to not care whether or not you can make a convincing case against acryon. You're basically conceding that you do not intend to contribute anything to the game any more, unless acryon gets lynched. Bad play. But I guess you don't care?

[bji]

OK so we have acryon verbally committing to the TheCow wagon and FA admitting that TheCow is a "likely scum".

Marcrell could easily be lynched based on that. Marcrell, are you going to try to defend yourself?

[bji]

OKAY

IMM

OFF

TODAY

AND DWLEE AND FA ARE TOWN

I know you don't "do cases" but would like to make any effort to convince anyone of your viewpoint?

Do you care whether or not anyone else shares your viewpoint?

[bji]

Hello everyone!

I'm working on catching up. You may expect my thoughts within 24 hours. Meanwhile, I see that the page count is high, so if anyone would like to call my attention to anything in particular, please do so.

My current position is well documented in post 2018, so if you could pay special attention to that, I would appreciate it. Marcrell has cleansed the slot a bit with more reasonable play, but it's still my top scum read.

I have historically had as my other scum read the RolePlay slot (now occupied by Aquanim). Aquanim's style has been so different from RolePlay's that it's hard to have a consistent read on that slot however and Aquanim has managed to take some of the edge off of my convictions against that slot.

I agree with others that FA's play is hard to categorize. Her play seems sincere (town) but is also combative and nonproductive (anti-town). On the whole though although I have had reservations about particular actions (interactions with RolePlay slot and fake claiming), I have a town read on her.

Your slot has given us so little to work with that it's really hard to come to any conclusions about it. You're going to be under the microscope now so please make your contributions count. If you're town, you really need to convince us and to help town out by adding clarity and strong reads/argumenst to the game. If you're scum ... then please be sure to post alot, it will help us pin you down.

I find Acryon in general to have played in a very straightforward town style, and most or all of his actions have obvious town motivations. He is either town or very good at acting town. For the time being, I believe the former. The flips of several players would weigh heavily into my thoughts on Acryon though, should those flips happen.

Dwlee makes short posts that are reasonable but often quite devoid of strong statements. I have yet to see Dwlee push on anyone, or really appear to make much of an effort beyond responding to what other people say. He did the fake hammer thing early on which I have already stated can be interpreted with either town or scum motivations, but I do lean scum on it. Actually scanning his ISO a bit, I have to wonder why, after all of the questions Dwlee has asked of other players, why has he never formed a particularly strong read on anyone? I would be comfortable calling this slot tied with Aquanim as second place to Marcrell on my scum reads at the moment.

I also really don't like Mala's interaction with Dwlee. From her first (and only?) reads list (post 497):

"I feel the whole reaction test thing was more town leaning than scum [

I think it was more scum leaning than town

] I don't see what motivation scum would have to do this [

for town cred, obviously

], and I feel like scum would be paying more attention to the vote count the he was [

this is a silly argument, because scum would have to pay attention just to vote count just to be able to pull off a fake hammer

]. While his activity level is high I don't think his content reflects this it feels like he is just here interacting with people which isn't really wither alignment for me as this could be scum trying to seem active or a town actually just trying to converse with people. As for his reads so far they seem null to me."

Mala liked it when Keyser expressed concern about Dwlee (post 497).

Mala put Dwlee in as a town read with no further explanation post 498. Where did this read come from? Nobody questioned it through, so Mala has sailed through with an unexplained town read on Dwlee (post 687, post 2004) all the way through a re-statement of her only conclusions about the game being that Dwlee and FA are town (post 2152).

I sense a connection between these two slots. I could be convinced to lynch one of Dwlee or Mala at this point as well. I would prefer Mala though because of my previously stated belief that all of the lurkers being scum could easily explain why town has had so many mislynches.

Finally, there's Mario. He's been pretty null for me so far. His tunnel on Golden from very early in the game is interesting though, I would like to hear more from that slot though now that we have (hopefully) a real player there, and see how Mario reacts to it.

[bji]

I agree with others that FA's play is hard to categorize. Her play seems sincere (town) but is also combative and nonproductive (anti-town). On the whole though although I have had reservations about particular actions (interactions with RolePlay slot and fake claiming), I have a town read on her.

yeah my play is completly toward my town wincon. thx for criticizing.

Acryon is scum so we lynch him

If I'm going to be lylo mislynch just finish me off.

its 1 v 1

My entire post, and all you care about is what I had to say about you? Is this game just an ego stroking opportunity for you or something? Do you have ANY thoughts WHATSOEVER on any part of this game that has not involved direct interaction with you?

[bji]

Please guys can we just hang FA. There's a decent chance of scum (I believe it's quite high, although I feel others have to admit it's at least decent), and if she's not, we at least have a much easier time scumhunting for our few days of LyLo.

As much as I would like to, no, we should not lynch FA, Acryon, unless we believe she's actually scum. A mislynch today puts us in LYLO tomorrow and we need to avoid that.

[bji]

and you never even voted me when I self voted.

oh god you have so much contradictions. why other town members can't see this!

How are those contradictions scummy though? Please point some out specifically and we can discuss whether or not a) they are contradictions and b) whether or not those contradictions add to or detract from a scum case on Acryon.

Town: please stop writing off this nonsense as town. Emotion and foolish play do not equal town. Let's stop giving FA a pass for her anti-town play just because she's emotional.

Yes, but anti-town play does not necessarily indicate scum either.

I feel like you're exasperated and are reaching now. I would definitely like to see this game move forward, this day is taking forever and is boring as hell but if we're going to move forward, can we at least do so with good cases?

The one thing I will grant you is that, yes, emotion/foolish play/seems sincere should be considered null. And I do agree that much of my position on FA is based on these three. So can you please point out something that is not emotion/foolish play/seems sincere that I should actively see as scum motivated?

[bji]

I am exasperated because I am playing with a bunch of people that are continuing to write off anti-town play over and over, although I won't admit I'm reaching. And if consistent anti-town play isn't scummy, then what is? And I already gave the reasons in the post to aqua. Please look at it. Not sure why you're asking about a case when I already posted a clear and concise one.

I ask because it's not easy to separate the wheat from the chaff in this FA vs. Acryon business, and useful posts easily get lost in the noise. Thank you for directing me back to that post though (I assume you are meaning post 2199).

1. The "soft-claim". She was hoping she would be left alone on it, but I pushed and she had to give it up.

How is this alignment indicative exactly? TownFA might have been trying a gambit of some kind, trying to create a point of leverage that she could use when exploring other players. ScumFA would have been taking an awful risk to soft claim something without a really good backup plan. The way that things played out with RC's claim, TownFA never got to utilize the leverage that she was trying to create (because the RC claim thing pretty much forced FA to give up on that soft claim). ScumFA could have played that fake claim very differently though. It didn't have to turn into a head-to-head against RC like it did - it was claiming to have a result on RC that did it. What was ScumFA's motivation for claiming a result on RC? And at a time when RC was pressing against FA very hard to reveal the claim? That's like the dumbest possible way to try to play that fake claim out if you're scum. It's not a smart way to do it as town either. But I do not see an obvious scum motivation there.

2. She then claims she was drunk, even though her play and posting style seemed the same as how she normally posts.

I don't know FA well enough to say how she would behave when drunk. Also I do not discount the possibility that FA was embarrassed by the fake claim and just wanted to scapegoat it on something.

3. She talked a lot about a me/supercool scumteam on D1 for why she thought I was scum. Then SC flips town and all of a sudden our association wasnt a big part. She was telling people to look at our interactions for a reason to vote me, so clearly this isn't true.

This weakens her case on you, but it doesn't make her scum.

4. She has misrepresented me on multiple occasions, saying the only reason I wanted to lynch her was based on policy, saying I am trying for a mislynch, etc.

This evidence would not be convincing to anyone but yourself, since none of the rest of us know if it's true or not that you were trying to lynch her based on policy, or trying for a mislynch, etc.

5. While this isn't necessarily indicative of scum, the way she has tunneled and misdirected this game has been terrible for town and has made things much easier for scum.

Agreed that the tunneling and misdirection has been bad for town, but that doesn't mean that her motivation was necessarily scum. This goes back to the "seems genuine" judgement call.

6. Speaks about players as if she knows how they play (did this with RC and with dwlee), but with no real reasoning for calling them town otherwise.

This I can actually agree with! Her read on Dwlee based on supposed meta is very unconvincing and also not well defended, to the point that it seems insincere (I don't remember what she said about RC's meta and honestly trying to search for it in ISO is just not something I want to spend time doing right now).

[bji]

The contradiction is in his day 2 posts about the false dilemma he put there that one of me or RC should be scum and the way he started day 3 completly trying to make sure town will ignore me and when he got caught about it he started to ask questions. when I self voted he got confused because he couldn't vote me (my flip would make my reads more valuable ) so he just tried to calm me down instead. then he started to call me "anti town" and voted me now...

Three points:

1. Why would he try to put out a false dilemma about either you or RC being scum, if he wasn't willing to go after either one of you when the other flipped town? He started Day 3 with a town read on you.

2. Is it really your position that Acryon was waiting for you to self-vote before pretending to "resolve his confusion" and place his vote back on you? If so, why would he waste his "false dilemma" assertion by calling you town before coming back to wagon you? I just don't see how you're ascribing any rational action to Acryon at all, scum or town.

2. If you believe that your flipped reads are valuable to scum, why would you want to give them those reads by being lynched today? You've defended your self-vote with the argument that you think that your lynch today could be better for town, but doesn't that contradict with what you've just said here about your flipped reads being valuable to scum?

pedit: if you can't talk about it, you shouldn't have mentioned it at all.

[bji]

1 - he put a false dilemma on 2 people who claimed to pr haunt. the PR is dead. the other one is the master bait of lylo.

We have to know that you're town in order to know that this was a false dilemma. That being said, I do lean town on you. So this argument does have some weight.

2 - He never wasted it. he just tried to make town ignore me for a while till lylo.

So you're saying that if you or RC had been lynched, his plan would have been to try to get the rest of town to ignore the other until LYLO? This is some master planning. Additionally, this strategy must imply that the other scum members would also try to get the rest of town to ignore you as well (because it makes little sense for one player on the scum team to try to get you to live until LYLO by being ignored, while the other members tried to get you lynched and/or not ignored). I'm sure you've been tracking people's votes/interactions with you better than I have. Can you point out who else is probably scum (according to your theory) because they have been trying to get you to live until LYLO?

3 - The point Is I wanted to screw scum team play that wanted to push me in a safety point for now. I'm not supporting a lynch on my slot since its a mislynch. But if town is not motivated to lynch the obvious scum , it should lynch me before lylo. me in lylo is like a miller in lylo. I'm not sure how town thinks about my fake claim atm but its extremely dangerous to be the mislynch in lylo instead of today.

How is Acryon voting you now consistent with wanting you to live until tomorrow so that he can reap profit from you in LYLO? Or are you saying that scum didn't realize how valuable it would be to have you live until LYLO according to your theory?

4 - because you asked about my reads. I gave them. I can't support it because our only games are ongoing. so yeah I won't talk about it. you can count that as a gut read.

Fair enough, but now you have to realize that you haven't really said anything about Dwlee that anyone has any reason to believe. If you feel strongly about your position, then you should try to find something that we

can

know about to support it.

[bji]

No, I'm town. I'm just disinterested. It's odd Aqua. Back in the Blitz you saw me do this first hand yet you're ignoring that fact. In fact if I recall correctly you didn't want to lynch me there.

It's hard to explain my reads. I always have trouble. I was wrong about Super, but even if I wanted to unvote i couldn't because RP forced RC to QH. Then screwing up D2 by QH'ing RC. That's why I hated the play by the RP slot but I was reading him town because of the early soft claim.

I was reading Dwlee as town because of reactions that he was trying to get by using a test which I actually have used In the past, which also helped me be right about the Titus slot read.

Hey ho, sorry it's a busy day, I've been reading but I don't have time to post except to say ... Mala's post sucks. This is not how you win mafia games -- making arguments about "this is how I played before therefore I am town, and oh, Dwlee did something I did once, he must be town". Relying on meta, both for reads and when putting forth evidence of how others should read you, is just lazy, lazy play if you're town ... and lazy, lazy play if you're scum trying to run cover for Dwlee.

Also ... please explain how RP forced RC to quickhammer. There was time for more play. I cannot see how RP forced anyone to quick hammer.

[bji]

Wait a minute, is the deadline really this close? I was just reading through this weekend's comments again, and intend to post something of a more substantial nature, but I'm a bit worried that post 2318] suggests that Day 3 is going to end in like an hour or so ... am I reading that right? Is anyone else around? And I have a meeting to go to RIGHT NOW ...

[bji]

Wait a minute, is the deadline really this close? I was just reading through this weekend's comments again, and intend to post something of a more substantial nature, but I'm a bit worried that post 2318] suggests that Day 3 is going to end in like an hour or so ... am I reading that right? Is anyone else around? And I have a meeting to go to RIGHT NOW ...

Oops forget it, I thought post 2318 was done on Sunday, I see now it was on Monday, so we have another day ... sorry about that ...

[bji]

OK I've carefully re-read through this weekend's posts. I am happy to see that we have an active replacement for golden, welcome Dierfire. And in answer to your questions:

All done!

@BJI

...
What do you think of Dwlee and MM4?

I still feel about Dwlee as I did in post 2213: he's keeping up with the game but making no pushes, and no very strong, commital statements. I am scum reading him but it tends to be associative with other players: I already expressed my thoughts about his interaction with Mala (in that same post), and I see some really interesting stuff regarding you and Dwlee in your initial posts that makes sense given how golden treated Dwlee. I am not sure that I'm willing to bet the farm on a Dwlee lynch right now though, which is what I think I'd be doing if I lynched him.

MM4 hasn't been super active either in terms of trying to make any significant cases. In fact if someone can point me to any post in which it's evident that MM4 has done significant analysis of the game, I'd appreciate that. I am not sure how alignment indicative this is though as it could be play style or just a general level of committment thing. In reviewing his voting history, I get some bad vibes. He tunneled golden for the entirety of Day 1 and going into Day 2, and only left his tunnel on golden to pick a winner in the FA vs RC claim debacle. Now he's tunneling TheCow, his reasoning is mostly being convinced by my points about TheCow's voting history (which of course was good reasoning, so I can't blame him for that) but even more so, he doesn't like TheCow's lurking style. Well TheCow has been reincarnated as Marcrell and is not lurking any more but ... MM4's vote remains. Then again, so does mine, so ...

Yeah, I gotta think more about how comfortable I feel lynching Marcrell today given the above. If that was your goal in asking me to look at these players ... then good job

UNVOTE: TheCow

[bji]

Er I meant

UNVOTE: Marcrell

[bji]

For the record, I also don't feel super comfortable following Dierfire onto a counter wagon on Mala. This is a really difficult situation here. I think the player I'm least fearful of following to a wagon is Aquanim. My town read on FA has obviously blown whatever vestiges remain of my FA-RolePlay associative out of the water, and I think that Aquanim has redeemed his slot. Plus his reasoning in this weekend's posting wrt Mala is hard to find fault with. Pressure time.

VOTE: Malakittens

If anyone is interested in a Dwlee wagon, I will consider it. Make your case.

[bji]

BTW Mala is now at L-2. We should give some time for discussion before tomorrow's deadline, so it would not be a good idea for any more votes on Mala at the moment, although verbal committments would be very useful.

[bji]

I have a 3 hour meeting in the morning/early afternoon tomorrow but that should be over at least 2 hours before deadline. So if there's a flurry of activity at the very end I should be able to participate.

Aquanim ... you have me intruiged ...

[bji]

@Aquanim

Why don't you remove your vote and have Marcrell place his on? If you have something to say before the hammer then you should be then one holding the hammer.

Either way, Mala's only at L-2 unless Acryon or someone else joins the wagon. If they join now it will be L-1 which we wanted to avoid to prevent quickhammer.

Marcrell has verbally committed, I am not certain that Acryon has though. Not sure what anyone else is planning to do either with respect to this wagon.

If we were going to lynch Mala, a good way would be:

1. Aquanim unvotes
2. Marcrell + someone else votes Mala, now Mala is at L-1
3. Everyone agrees that only Aquanim should hammer Mala
4. Aquanim hammers late in the day after he's said his peace
5. We all agree to lynch anyone who disturbs this plan by quickhammering Mala

Anyone interfering with the above by quick hammering Mala would be subject to immediate lynch tomorrow, which would be playing against their win condition, so they shouldn't (and technically can't) do it.

pedit: (1) is done. I assume we have agreement on (5).

[bji]

I forgot:

3a. Mala, if town, defends herself. If scum, she says nothing. This would be very helpful!
3b. We continue to talk to figure out if there's a better lynch. If so, anyone is free to leave the wagon at any time (obviously).

[bji]

<_<.

Fucking annoying.

This is why I won't replace into games because I was aware that my activity was going to drop off and I read the game prior, gave my thoughts, but apparently that means jack fucking shit.

No free passes. Sorry if you were expecting one!

This game was screwed when we lynched the doctor without a CC, then decided to freaken lynch the cop.

The game is not over yet. If you are town, you'll get no credit from me for giving up.

Bji is town. I don't really see a godfather in the setup sorry.
Scum probably have a lot of power esp with RC being untargettable cop.

Explain further. Why no godfather in this setup? What other roles do you think are likely?

I might be wrong about Acyron since I remember his last scum game I had him pinged early since he was different from other games. Granted I probably needed to reread his meta, but don't have a lot of time on my hands.

Meta evidence/arguments are weak. Give us something from this game. Also I don't entirely understand what you just wrote anyway, and even the meaning I

think

I would ascribe to it directly contradicts your only real mention of acryon this game which was post 497. If you could be clearer, that would help.

I have had a love hate relationship with the Awua slot. I haven't really had problems with Rp's play besides the whole hammer the doctor thing and his blow up re:RC. Also the fact he acted like a jerk I didn't like either, but this later part isn't alignment related. Him claiming what I believe was VT early felt town for a newer player. Aqua I haven't really had much problems with his play so far.

I see the love here, but not the hate, unless what you're saying is you love his slot from an alignment perspective but hate the player? Also, do you actually believe that he was a "newer player"? I think his newbie facade fell away pretty completely well before his replace-out.

MM4 is actually pretty hard for me to read. He actually tends to be a non-entirely as either alignment which makes him an easier lynch. I have milsynched him in the past for not giving a fuck which kinda led me to really ignore him for majority of this game. /:

I have not played with him before so I'm not going to comment on your experience with him (and I don't like relying on meta anyway), but I agree about the "non-entity this game" thing.

As I said I haven't really liked ThwCow for a larger part of the game. /:

You did very little aside from park a vote on that slot to belie your convictions. It's not too late for you to actually make a convincing argument, you know. You might save yourself ...

I also am paranoid that I'm wrong and I'm townreading the scum team so IDK.

You can say you're paranoid, but your play hasn't really shown that.

So there ya have it. There's my thoughts go ahead and lynch me since that's quite what everyone's leaning on doing anyway. It will get me out early rather than mislynch img me in LyLo and then pointing blame at me.

There is zero town motivation in this paragraph. Just sayin'.

[bji]

Sorry I just got in trouble for my phone. Apologies for the cursing.

Just curious, and I know this has nothing to do with the game, but how does one get in trouble for a phone?

[bji]

you know what bji

then don't ask me for thoughts if youre just gonna dismiss every single thing i wrote.

-.-

Actually what I did was try to challenge you to support your reads with some convincing evidence.

[bji]

Your response wasn't quite what I was hoping for, but it's made me question enough.

This is really, really bad play man. Seriously bad. Atrociously bad.

A fake hammer is intended to get the victim to accidentally reveal their scum alignment.

If someone claims town in response to a fake hammer IT MEANS NOTHING.

1. Mala could have easily been just as aware that the hammer wasn't real in which case her subsequent claims are just the same claims she's been making. No additional info.

2. Even if Mala thought the hammer was real, why would a scum ever just announce their scum role like that? Every scum worth their salt would know that there is ZERO to be gained from that:
a. A mistake could have been made in vote counting, and every scum would be aware of that and realize that claiming after a hammer is stupid
b. Revealing your scum role just gives town more time to talk/make reads before the mod locks the thread, which cannot be good for scum in any way

Mala is certainly experienced enough to not claim scum after a fake hammer.

Acryon's actions here are really suspicious.

[bji]

UNVOTE: Malakittens

I was never thrilled with this lynch to begin with, but the way stuff has gone down today, I think it would be a crime to lynch Mala now.

We need to seriously consider the case against acryon at this point.

We also need to look at MM4 more closely because I agree that post 2402 was, like, terrible.

[bji]

She seemed a bit emotional, which is why I figured I would give it a try. Experience didn't mean much to me here considering a lot of her other play this game.

Well here's the thing. I gotta try to figure out what motivation you could have for that charade. Town motivation I could see as never being very confident in the Mala lynch to begin with and looking for a way to get off the wagon without inviting even further suspicion (since you've got FA and even Aquanim now on your heels). Scum motivation ... well, if Mala is town, I can't see any scum motivation there, when Mala was now set up for a lynch and all you have to do is wait until Aquanim hammers. And presuming Mala is scum means that you're both scum and that becomes an associative read.

So I guess the question is, what are the chances that BOTH Mala and Acryon are scum? Now I have to do homework, waah. I have to go read Mala and Acronym interactions in ISO. And I have this meeting coming up ...

pedit: So Acryon, you don't think Mala is sharp enough to handle a fake hammer as scum? I don't know if she is or isn't, but town paranoia would lead me to lean towards her being sharp enough.

[bji]

I guess there could be scum motivation if Mala is town for Acryon to leave that wagon, if Acryon thinks that Mala is very likely to be lynched anyway and is going for town cred by leaving a mislynch wagon. But that's a bit of a stretch ... probably more valuable just to stay on the wagon.

pedit: All of that (from 2431) may be true, but you've already admitted that you actually can't get anything out of a town claim after a fake hammer. And yet you continue to act like it's valid to try to get something out of a town claim after a fake hammer. Also not sure why you think you can suddenly make an emotional read on Mala.

Anyway, like I said, I don't feel I can draw a specific conclusion from this action by Acryon, except to say, that it's definitely not something I would do as town. But I gotta go read those ISOs ...

[bji]

Ha ha. I go back to the ISOs of Mala and Acryon and the first thing I see is this:

Soon after Mala's entry in 498 ... I remember that. And I remember pointing out how weird I thought it was that Mala never mentioned Acryon, who was at the time (in my opinion) one of the most universally town read, instead putting her top town reads as Dwlee, RolePlay, and Neumume (who became Titus). So I asked why in post 499. OK so her response was "Not sure I why I haven't, but i want to check old games because I had a tell somewhere with Acryon so i wanna see if i can't dig it up." (post 501).

She never dug anything up, or even tried, or ever gave any further comment on Acryon at all!

622 - "The pressure from RP is stupid right now and the chances of this being a TVT fight is pretty high." (referring to FA vs. Acryon). This could be read as a defense of a scum partner.

Now we come to today and post 2399. Mala votes Acryon, who is in zero danger (at the time, not sure about now!) of being lynched. Then MM4 puts Mala at actual L-1. Acryon's response? To "fake hammer" her and use her town claim response as a reason to leave her wagon, removing her from L-1 danger.

Now let's examine Acryon's ISO with respect to Mala:

618 - "Got a second to explain? We could use your voice here." This would be so choice if it was acryon trying to prod a newly replaced in teammate to get more active in the game.

Here are a few places where Acryon could be interpreting as defending Mala:
766 discredits the notion that FA, mala, and TheCow could all be scum
1431 discredits the notion that mala's activity could be used to infer her scum alignment
1434 tries to get RC to stop talking about wanting to lynch mala and start talking about whoever his #2 choice would be
1438 tries to get conversation off the topic of mala again
1513 tries to get conversation away from talking about lynching mala and onto "#2"

On reread I am quite frankly amazed at the number of soft or hard defenses of Mala that Acryon has done over time. And pretty subtly too, I didn't really see the pattern at first.

I really don't want to lynch today based on a last minute associative read. But I will say that if one of these two flips scum, we really should think hard about lynching the other.

[bji]

Well I have to go to a multi-hour meeting in a few minutes. I don't have time to look more closely at MM4 but I will say that his recent posts have really rubbed me the wrong way. They seem opportunistic, which I think if you look back at his ISO you will see a pattern of that, especially his jumping on RC wagon Day 2. I will be back a few hours before deadline and I hope things have sorted themselves out a bit more clearly by then? Also the guy in the cube next to me uses hand sanitizer like 50 times a day, the germophobe that he is, and the smell drives me fucking crazy. Doesn't he know that what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger? Peace out.

[bji]

I really hope we don't lynch mala and she flips scum today, because I have a feeling bji is dying tonight and then the town will cling to this and go after me. I was hoping bji and I could talk more before the end of the day so we aren't just left here, but I'll only be around for a few more hours.

My meeting is over now. What did you want to talk about?

[bji]

Mislynch takes us to LYLO.
No lynch takes us to MYLO. A no lynch from there takes us to LYLO.

Did I compute that correctly?

[bji]

Incidentally, I am pretty sure that this whole fake hammer thing is simply not a thing Acryon does here IF {Acryon is scum} AND {Mala is town}.

I agree with that.

Unlike my previous associative read from Day 1, I didn't set this one up with a precondition to be met, so I don't feel nearly as confident about basing a vote on Mala or Acryon on their association. Especially this close to end of day.

[bji]

Mislynch takes us to LYLO.
No lynch takes us to MYLO. A no lynch from there takes us to LYLO.

Did I compute that correctly?

Well, yes, but I don't see why anybody is even thinking about a nolynch right now.

(For starters, Mala is at L-1 and I am holding the hammer.)

Well I've never experienced a no lynch. So I haven't had experience with how or why it is done. Just thinking out loud about what it would mean.

It seems to me that it means that being wrong about Mala is no better than letting scum pick the next two lynches. So I think it shines a light on how valuable confidence in the Mala lynch is at this point.

[bji]

It seems to me that it means that being wrong about Mala is no better than letting scum pick the next two lynches. So I think it shines a light on how valuable confidence in the Mala lynch is at this point.

Sorry just to be clear, I meant "no better than letting scum pick the next two kills". In other words, one mislynch + a NK is just as bad as two NLs (which imply two NKs).

That being said, in either case, we're still at LYLO, and all we've done is allowed scum to decide who they think is best to leave alive so ... not sure it makes any difference.

pedit: Yes, I have completed the thought process, and it's not too fruitful

[bji]

I really hope we don't lynch mala and she flips scum today, because I have a feeling bji is dying tonight and then the town will cling to this and go after me. I was hoping bji and I could talk more before the end of the day so we aren't just left here, but I'll only be around for a few more hours.

My meeting is over now. What did you want to talk about?

I am worried that if mala flips scum and you die tonight, then I will have no one to convince of my innocence since you won't be here to talk through your me/mala case.

Explain please. I've already posted some evidence of you appearing to defend Mala both overtly (via postings I referenced) and covertly (via this fake hammer leave your wagon thing). If mala flips scum and I'm dead, you won't have to convince me of anything. Are you worried that you'll have to convince others to ignore my post 2435? If so, you'd have to do that whether I was alive or not. Not sure what you're getting at with your concern over my death.

pedit: it is also my belief that Mala is at L-1. Mod has been disturbingly absent though.

[bji]

2402 was L-1. Acryon comes off in 2415 and Bji comes off in 2424. Marcrell goes on in 2438.

Unless MM4 was the hammer, Mala should be at L-2 now, I think.

Yeah I think you're right actually. Confusing times.

Despite my initial freak out in reaction to Acryon's fake hammer thing with Mala, I agree that given the choice between a no lynch and a Mala lynch, we should choose a Mala lynch. THE HAMMER BELONGS TO AQUANIM, so nobody else hammer OK?

VOTE: Malakittens

Mala is at L-1. Aquanim holds the hammer. Now Aquanim, what was it you wanted to say before hammering?

[bji]

It's two and a half hours to deadline and I can be here as long as I need to be. If anybody wants to say or discuss anything, go ahead.

Sure. Let's talk about Mario. Can you please put these choices in order of your preference (1 most preferred, 3 least preferred)? Mine are:

1. Lynch Mario
2. Lynch Mala
3. No Lynch

Mario's most recent postings have pushed his total body of work over the scum line in my opinion.

[bji]

Hey all. Before we say anything else I think it's important to talk about the logistics of how we handle voting today. I propose that we have NO VOTES until we have four confirms on a lynch target, because obviously all it takes is one town player voting for a town player and then the remaining scum (assuming there are 3, which I think is the most prudent assumption) can pile on for the win.

Therefore we should have virtual votes, where we declare what wagon we are on not using vote tags. Furthermore, I think that it's likely to get confusing for us to have to do vote counting manually by looking back through lots of posts.

So I propose that when a person wants to cast a virtual vote, they list the current state of all votes. In order to add or change your vote, you just search back to the most recent "unofficial vote count", modify your vote within it, increase the vote count counter (it's starting at 4.0 here, the first increment will be to 4.1), and then re-post. So I'll start.

One final note: when someone is at L-1 and the final "virtual vote" is to be cast, i.e., the virtual hammer is to be done, it is not cast as a virtual vote. Instead that player should cast a real vote and everyone else that was on that same wagon is obliged to complete the lynch by also casting a real vote after that. There should be no unvoting of real votes once you've placed them. Period.

I will have to re-read the thread with Mala and Aquanim's flips in mind, but in the interim, I believe that Mario is scum.

--- cut here --------------------
UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 4.0:

MarioManiac4 - bji (L - 3)
Direfire - (L - 4)
Frozen Angel - (L - 4)
Dwlee99 - (L - 4)
acryon - (L - 4)
bji - (L - 4)
Marcrell - (L - 4)

Not voting: MarioManiac4, Direfire, Frozen Angel, Dwlee99, acryon, Marcrell
--- cut here --------------------

[bji]

Can I call the scum team again?

its Acryon - MM - Marcell

Do I need to repeat myself again?

Is that list in order of lynch preference?

I personally think Acryon is unlikely to be scum because of the way he fake hammered Mala. For Acryon to be scum and fake hammer Mala and then leave her wagon because of her response requires that he believed that there was more to be gained by leaving her wagon than staying on it. We know that Mala was town so scum should be happy with that lynch, and whatever he gained by leaving would have to be more valuable than lynching a town.

The only thing I can see him gaining is town credibility, but he would only gain that if Mala ended up getting lynched anyway. So for scum-Acryon to value leaving the wagon implies that he must have believed that she was going to be lynched even without him.

Therefore if Acryon is scum, he must have thought that the chances of Mala being lynched without him were high. This implies to me that if Acryon is scum, then either people who were already on the wagon and stayed on the wagon are on his team, or people who subsequently joined to complete the lynch are on his team.

The people who were already on and stayed on were Dierfire and Mario. The people who joined after he left (besides me) are Marcrell and Aquanim (who we know was town so isn't worth considering further).

This then implies that if Acryon is scum, then one or more of Dierfire, Mario, and/or Marcrell is a partner.

This actually strengthens both Frozen Angel's scum team of { Acryon, Mario, Marcrell }, and also one of Aquanim's scum teams of { Acryon, Mario, Marcrell } (his other team was { Acryon, Dierfire, Marcrell }, which is also supported by my argument here). Mala herself mostly only left us with her town reads, but she did vote Acryon as one of her only scum reads at the very end, for what that's worth.

None of this is evidence that Acryon is scum; but it is evidence that there is some consensus between Aquanim's town analysis, Frozen Angel's possibly-town analysis, and the actual Mala wagon.

This doesn't help us so much today, but I think that if we lynch one of Acryon, Mario, Marcrell, or Dierfire and they flip scum, then we should be looking hard at the others, especially Acryon, for the next lynch.

And even given all of that, I do think that Acryon is less likely to be scum than town because of that fake hammer, I just feel like greater certainty of a Mala lynch would be worth more than some marginal town credibility that a scum Acryon would get by leaving the Mala wagon.

[bji]

OK so I was going to do something of a thread re-read given what we know about Mala and Aquanim now but honestly, 100 pages is just too daunting. I don't think I will be able to do it. I did do some skimming and re-reading of yesterday's posts, especially with regards to Mala's wagon, but that's it.

I think we have two choices about how we decide on today's lynch: we can continue to discuss and try to draw up new and better evidence, or we can just go with what we have.

Just going with what we have actually has some merit; bear with me here.

Consider that we've already amassed 100 pages of interactions along with many wagons and flips. There is something to be said for the notion that if there is evidence to be found, we already have it.

Consider also that we now have (almost certainly) 3 scum out of 7 players. That means that almost half of the remaining players are going to just be trying to work to fool the remaining players into making a bad choice. I am not entirely sure that those of us town players who are left are going to be well served by continuing to discuss when such a large percentage of players are going to try to contribute discussion that leads to a mislynch instead of a scum lynch.

We could stop talking now and just have some kind of run-off election to choose the lynch. The only way for town to win here is if the collective judgement of town given the existing evidence is good enough to get a scum lynch. If it isn't, then we'll likely lose anyway, regardless of how much more discussion we have.

So given the above I was thinking about some ways that we could make a lynch choice with minimum chance of scum collusion.

Does this idea make any sense:

- Each player simply posts his or her list of choices for today's lynch, as an ordered list (not including themselves of course), numbers 1 - 6, with 1 being most desired to lynch, and 6 being least
- We take a weighted average of the player's positions on everyone's list and then drop the bottom (i.e. least-desired-for-a-lynch) player or maybe 2 players
- Then we repeat, only considering the remaining players

After we repeat this a few times, we will end up with a vote between the remaining two players, and the results of that vote will be the lynch choice for the day.

In order to prevent scum collusion, we could have one player start by posting their list, and then the topmost player from their list (i.e. most desired to be lynched) who has not yet given their list, will be the next person to give their list. In this way, the order that the lists are given will be harder to "game" in a way that could be beneficial to scum by, e.g., setting early precedent. Once this ordering is set after the first iteration, we'll re-use it for subsequent iterations.

This may sound convoluted, but I am just trying to think of ways to allow the best judgement of the remaining town players to overshadow the most nefarious intentions of the remaining scum players.

[bji]

Nobody wants to play anymore, I don't think. We have 9 days (not that we need to use all of it), and I think people are just waiting to see what happens, no sense of urgency. That being said, you must be talking about more than just today in relation to Dwlee because everyone's lurking today.

Your claim is interesting. It's not easily verifiable and very unlikely to be counter-claimed if it's being faked because it's such an unusual role, and your results were all on people who died.

Why didn't you ever target Frozen Angel?

I actually prefer that we just runoff vote for today, so I don't have any intention of talking a great deal. But if people really want to talk ... I'm game.

[bji]

I'm vanilla town.

I really didn't like post 2402, it felt opportunistic, I don't think it was necessary for Mario to suddenly jump on a Mala wagon (a player he had not interacted with or even talked about the entire game) just because "we need information". And the vote was followed by a bunch of analysis of ... other players that he wasn't voting for. Why not vote for someone you actually think is scum instead of someone you have no feelings on?

He was also in a pretty convenient spot on the RC wagon. And his play has just felt kind of opportunistic in general. Those are my reasons for voting Mario.

Not sure what else to say.

Acryon, you say you want me to be engaged ... OK. Make a case for who you think we should lynch, and I'll consider it on its merits.

pedit: Interesting points on the voyeur claim. But we don't know what roles scum have so who knows if voyeur was intended to balance out one of their roles or not.

[bji]

Okay FA, I know you solved the game and know every player's alignment but unfortunately the rest of us are still getting there. Voyeur is very suspect, I'd probably want to lynch Acryon at some point, but it doesn't need to be immediate.

Sorry guys I have a really busy schedule today so my participation will be limited.

I don't understand this sentiment though and this is the second time you said something like this today. You do realize that we are in LYLO right? Maybe hitting scum today and maybe hitting town and then sorting it out tomorrow WILL NOT WORK. We have to be sure that we're lynching town today.

Your cavalier attitude today about whether or not we hit scum is starting to look as bad as MM4s cavalier attitude yesterday. Possibly worse, since today we're in LYLO; yesterday you could have credibly made the argument that we could afford another mislynch. There is no such luxury today.

[bji]

TYPO: "We have to be sure that we're NOT lynching town today". Sorry I am pressed for time, a meeting in 3 minutes.

[bji]

Hello. Back from my long meeting. I agree with Dierfire, mostly. Here is where I do not agree:

Frozen and acryon shouldn't both be Mafia; they've been trying to get each other lynched for the entire game.

FA and Acryon could have been bussing. I don't think this is the case (I think it's about 1000x more likely that Acryon is scum by himself than both FA and Acryon are scum), but it's certainly possible. In my very first mafia game, my partner and I bussed hard from pretty early in the game just like FA and Acryon did. And we won. The comments after game were along the lines of "I never expected scum to bus each other so hard for so long". I think there's other more likely scum than either of these slots for sure, but scum could both be here. In which case, we're going to lose if we save them for last. Just saying.

That being said, you've got some pretty airtight logic there on the reasons why we should save FA and Acryon until the end, unless we think they're both scum. And I do think that's unlikely. If they are then ... gg. I deserve it I guess since that's how I won my first game!

so what about Acryon/Direfire/Marcell scum team? It just make very sense to me right now ...

and acryon. calling my posts absolute nonsense won't help you I assure you

You went from a scum team of { Acryon, MM, Marcrell } in post 2485 at the beginning of the day, to a scum team of { Acryon, Dierfire, Marcrell } now (post 2574). I personally haven't seen anything today that would cause me, if I had your scum reads, to take MM out and put Dierfire in. I mean, they've both said some questionable things, but in equal proportions.

Would you please explain why you're on Dierfire instead of MM now?

[bji]

I still favor a MM4 lynch today because of his play at the end of yesterday plus his play today. I can explain more if you really need me to, but I think I already explained my case against MM4 pretty well at least once already. I don't really even want to talk about second choices until someone explains to me why anyone is a better choice than MM4.

pedit: I certainly have

not

virtual voted Acryon. If it came down to a choice between FA and Acryon, as I already stated, I'd nail Acryon. However, that's not a choice that needs to be made today. MM4 is a much better lynch than betting the game on which, if any, of FA and Acryon are scum.

[bji]

I still favor a MM4 lynch today because of his play at the end of yesterday plus his play today. I can explain more if you really need me to, but I think I already explained my case against MM4 pretty well at least once already. I don't really even want to talk about second choices until someone explains to me why anyone is a better choice than MM4.

pedit: I certainly have

not

virtual voted Acryon. If it came down to a choice between FA and Acryon, as I already stated, I'd nail Acryon. However, that's not a choice that needs to be made today. MM4 is a much better lynch than betting the game on which, if any, of FA and Acryon are scum.

I believe dwlee to be a slightly better choice today due to the absolutely horrible way he handled every one of my questions and prods today, coupled with his general lack of scumhunting the entire game. Thoughts? Specifically on our engagement today as well if you could.

Dwlee is definitely in my pool of scum candidates already before today. I agree that he has shown a startling lack of scum hunting this game and has not defended himself really at all against that accusation today. There are others that the same criticism could be levelled at though (such as Marcrell), but obviously we have counter examples of where a lack of scum hunting doesn't always equal scum (Mala was the poster child of this).

I have much bigger problems with MM4:

- His post 2402 really bothered me. The justification for voting Mala all of a sudden was "information" when he had basically not interacted with her at all in the game and this just seems like a completely made up justification to me.
- His top scum reads at the end of day 2 were Dierfire, Marcrell, and Mala. But now he's virtually voting for Acryon on a virtual wagon that is at virtual L-1? The word that keeps coming up in my mind over and over again every time MM4 takes any significant action is, opportunistic.
- I thought the whole argument about whether or not Voyeur was more likely scum vs. town was complete bunk and MM4 was the main proponent of the "Voyeur is scum" side of that. I can't see a reasonable town player suggesting that Voyeur was more likely scum than town in this game, let alone pushing the argument.

[bji]

I think your arguments are based on debateable premises and tenuous logical connections.

1. FA was never trying to get MM4 lynched today, as far as I know. She has said repeatedly that she wants Acryon and only Acryon today. This disagrees with your lumping FA and Dwlee together in terms of motivation to be on and/or to leave MM4's wagon.

2. Because of (1), I don't think you can conclude that "because scum bussing a scum-MM4 would have no motivation to leave his wagon at this time, and because FA left his wagon, FA must not be scum bussing scum-MM4". FA was never really on his wagon today, and as a result can't be said to have left it. As far as I can tell, her position with respect to MM4 is completely unchanged.

3. Ignoring FA now who I already addressed in (2), I think your conclusion on Dwlee doesn't follow through either. I think you are saying that "If Dwlee were bussing a scum partner MM4, then he wouldn't leave that bus unless he thought a push for a mislynch could quickly win; and he isn't pushing for an immediate win, therefore he wasn't scum bussing MM4". Well, how do you know Dwlee isn't pushing for an immediate win? He seems to have left the MM4 wagon for an Acryon wagon which one would think already had at least some legs with FA being so committed to it, and my having expressed the sentiment that I'd lynch Acryon over FA if I had to choose. Why can't this be the "push for an immediate lynch" that you were looking for?

4. Because of (2) and (3), I don't think your conclusion that "because MM4 can't be scum with either FA and Dwlee, if he is scum it must be with two of the three of { Acryon, bji, Marcrell }" is valid. The premise that MM4 can't be scum with either FA or Dwlee hasn't been shown, as I already pointed out, so you can't draw this conclusion.

What I believe you are saying in post 2667 is "If two of { bji, Frozen, Acryon, and Marcrell } is mafia, then Marcrell must be one of those two, because { bji, Frozen }, { bji, Acryon }, and { Frozen, Acryon } cannot be possible scum pairs". I expect your reasoning for thinking that these latter three pairings is not possible is because if I am town, then that leaves { Frozen, Acryon }, which presumably you also don't think is possible?

That's fine logic, I guess, but it presumes that Dwlee and MM4 cannot be scum together, and I don't have any idea why that must be true. Care to explain?

Furthermore, I don't understand why you're basing your reads almost exclusively on associations today. Why not vote for the single player most likely to be scum according to what you've read up to this point? Giving preference to events of the prior days (since we know how motivated scum are to deceive today and also how numerous they are, making everything that happens today just that much less trustworthy), and especially with regards to events associated with known flips? That's what I'm doing ...

[bji]

Actually, thinking a little more about the game from

your

perspective:

If you believe that:

- I'm town
- { Acryon, Frozen Angel } cannot be a scum team
- { MM4, Frozen Angel } cannot be a scum team
- { MM4, Dwlee } cannot be a scum team

Then yes, the player you should vote for is Marcrell, because the only remaining teams from your perspective are { Marcrell, Acryon }, { Marcrell, Frozen Angel }, { Marcrell, MM4 }, and { Marcrell, Dwlee }, making Marcrell the common scum choice among all of your options.

However, you really do have to be convinced of those four premises to conclude this. Are you convinced of them?

[bji]

By the way, I'm talking only about scum pairings. The actual full teams you are left with are:

{ Marcrell, Acryon, MM4 }, { Marcrell, Acryon, Dwlee }, and { Marcrell, Frozen Angel, Dwlee } (not sure if you count this because of your comments about Frozen and Dwlee wrt MM4 wagon today).

Marcrell is still the common player, so the conclusion does not change.

[bji]

All youve been doing is arguing with frozen and now me >.<

I would not characterize Acryon's play in the same way. I looked at his ISO and I see lots more than that. Like, nudging FA to claim on Day 2 before she backed down from her claim. Other things like pointing out how FA was probably lying about fake-claiming when drunk because she didn't change her tone at that time. Voting opportunistically is not something I see in Acryon's ISO. Take each vote count that Jake posted, for example; I don't see him on the bloodking wagon at any point, or on the RC wagon either. And consider that he was never on the Mala wagon either. Realistically, you could perhaps be suspicious that scum-Acryon could have avoided every mislynch wagon just for maximal town cred. Obviously not voting for mislynches ever could itself be a suspicious pattern so I'm not sure that scum would even do that.

[bji]

I think it is null, bji thinks it is a towntell and that makes no sense.

I never said it was a town tell. I was using it as counter evidence to your assertion that Acryon hasn't done anything this game. What kind of tell, if any, that it is is not relevant; the fact that it represents activity is the important thing in refuting your statement.

[bji]

I know you prefer a MM4 lynch bji, but what is keeping you from a dwlee one?

Because we're in LYLO and I want to lynch my top read. Also I can't decide who I like less, Marcrell or Dwlee.

[bji]

Actually is there any reason for me to not do it now if I will have to do it anyway?

Well we're only at "virtual L-1" as far as I know. This is why I wanted to have more rigorous vote counting procedures so that we could have a clearer picture of what we're doing. I guess I'll try again?

Here's the count as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong, please correct this by REPOSTING IT WITH CORRECTIONS.

--- cut here --------------------
UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 4.1:

MarioManiac4 - bji, acryon, Marcrell (L - 1)
Dierfire - (L - 4)
Frozen Angel - (L - 4)
Dwlee99 - (L - 4)
acryon - Frozen Angel, Dwlee99 (L - 2)
bji - (L - 4)
Marcrell - (L - 4)

Not voting: MarioManiac4, Dierfire
--- cut here --------------------

[bji]

Yo bji and acryon wy are you ok with being on a wagon with marcrell who you are scum reading?

Because bussing is a thing.

pedit: I didn't realize that acryon. I thought you were saying you'd be back before deadline, but I guess I misread. Yeah I don't really see any point in waiting on an MM4 vote.

[bji]

VOTE: Acryon

[bji]

Don't worry. You didn't lose. Game was borked. You'll see why later.

[bji]

I call it a tie personally because the mod error. We were told that RC was cop even though we shouldn't have been told that because of ascetic.

[bji]

I call it a tie personally because the mod error. We were told that RC was cop even though we shouldn't have been told that because of ascetic.

what was your team?

Dwlee - MM4 - bji

[bji]

And after we were told RC was ascetic cop we told the mod that we thought he made a mistake and he said he'd go check with N to see what to do, and that the game would probably have to end. Then I thought the game was definitely going to end so I thought I'd have fun with RC and claim godfather which was my real role.