Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[rb]

I think that both the Ryan and Expedience wagons are bad.

[rb]

Nah i am gonna be you and act like a total dick and answer it 10 pages later cya

I feel like the purpose of this is to find an excuse to deny us information.

Even Ryan can see it.

Are you guys worse than Ryan?

[rb]

Pre-flip association tells.

*snores loudly*

[rb]

It is absolutely and unambiguously not going to be juicy and informative looking at the policy votes that keep piling up on Ryan.

[rb]

BBT I townread Ryan early on because of his reaction to my 'optimal strategy'. It was town enough to townread him early. I think he's more town now.

When you get to Glitch let me know what you think.

[rb]

Insofar as I can tell, the only scumreads on myself and Expedience are because we don't scumread Ryan

[rb]

Can I get everyone's read on Ryan, gameplay and Martha? No need to justify, just state whether you think Ryan is scum or town. No null votes allowed, pick the one that you'd pick if you had to pick one with a gun to your head.

Ryan - town
Martha - town
Gameplay - scum

I want to get a cross-section of who's reading which slots as what.

[rb]

Although I feel gameplay is less scum lately, so I need to re-evaluate. I've had some very strong feelings of scumminess from Martha, Gameplay, Expedience, Glitch and even Cass at some points. The ones that stuck were Gameplay and Glitch. I'm less sure of gameplay, but gut still says he's scum.

I need to rethink the other 3. I'm not okay with an Expedience lynch because he's VERY strongly town, despite pinging as scum at one point. Martha is town enough, I think her weird voting patterns are just her style being different to mine. I've disliked at least 80% of her votes. Cass I thought was ultra scummy in early pages, same as BBT. I want to see what he thinks when he's fully caught up.

[rb]

Interesting, thanks.

[rb]

BBT just put Glitch at L-1.

I think that's a dumb move if he's scum with Glitch, given how wagon-happy everyone in this game seems to be. BBT isn't dumb. If Glitch flips scum, BBT is conftown.

[rb]

Am I ridiculous enough yet BBT?

Also it makes me sad that you call me ridiculous when the game we played together I picked both scum

[rb]

@Cass, what's your read on Ryan, Martha and Expedience?

Town or scum, pretend a gun is to your head and you have to pick. No nulls.

[rb]

Anyway I don't know what to make of BBT yet, he picked up on Glitch's really awful opening post which I really hated as well. I have no idea if he realised I picked up on it or if that's an independent thing he's done. If it's independent then I like him as town. I don't have any issues with his posts so far though, so I'm happy to put him on the no-lynch list.

I don't have much problem with his lynch pool.

[rb]

Oh, that. I'm just a ridiculous person really. Can't help it, you'll have to 5give me.

[rb]

Her point that you and Glitch are unlikely scumpartners is true though.

You're saying that you think Cass is bussing Glitch? I can work with that since Cass isn't actually voting Glitch. If Glitch flips scum, this could be towncred play.

[rb]

Also I feel like Glitch really should be the lynch at this point and Cass knows that - if Glitch flips scum then some of the stuff she says just isn't scummy imo.

What's super fucking scummy is gameplay scumreading Expedience and myself, but voting Glitch with us anyway

'Like hey I've totally picked the scumteam and I'm gonna vote with them' - makes sense.

[rb]

Shit, Martha's doing the same? LOL

Like these two have both been parroting how the scumteam is Ryan/Expedience/rb - but they're voting aligned with both Expedience AND myself?

You need to reconsider your no-lynch pool Expedience :/

[rb]

Can we talk about Gameplay again?

What's your take on him voting with two of his scumreads? It makes me really hate this wagon because I'm scumreading the fuark out of gameplay.

[rb]

Anyway I'm going to bed.

[rb]

Oh my bad, that was Martha - who you had as a scumread, on top of me being a scumread.

You're still voting with two of your scumreads. Why?

[rb]

Going to bed and when I come back I still wanna know why both Martha and Gameplay are voting aligned with two of their scumreads.

[rb]

I pointed out the association first, so maybe. Chuck doesn't necessarily have to be scum for Glitch's post to be terrible though, so I wouldn't be quicklynching Chuck or anything.

[rb]

@BBT I need you to post more. As I understand it you're a good town player. Do more plzthx.

Rb, can you also explain this post when you're here please.

Thanks.

Because you're apparently a good town player but you didn't post for like 3-4 days. I can't read you if you're a lurker slot and I want you active if you're town.

[rb]

NK talk: I was townread by like 10 slots, which made me the most likely NK. I've died early in a lot of games. I wanted some more scumreads so that I wouldn't be NK (because I look like a viable mislynch).

BBT I don't need to look specifically at your town game to simply realise you're a good player. Good play is good play.

[rb]

And yes, the NK play is a purely selfish one aimed at my own survival, but from my experience I often figure things out and pick entire scumteams just as long as I'm alive long enough. I was paranoid about dying N1 and watching town nosedive while I sit in spec thread and sigh.

Anyway gameplay is scum. He's had me as a strong scumread: but then he votes with me.

Then he says I'm scum, but acts all distant from the read. "You guys are reading too much into it" blah blah. And, "I told you guys this was a bad lynch" - even though he was on the wagon and voting aligned with a scumread of his.

Gameplay is scum. He literally just shit talks and flails and pretends like he's "frustrated" to get townreads.

[rb]

BBT - wtf, you accuse people of spamming this game, which I agree with, but then proceed to do the same yourself and so make it even worse. Agree with Gameplay about the rb point, it's nonsense.

But gameplay has me as a strong scumreas, but then says this slip isn't a slip?

Oh right because he knows I'm town.

[rb]

Scum will be in Gameplay, Chuck, Cass, Golden and maybe Saru/Dierfire. I like Saru more than Dierfire but they're really inactive. I intend to lynch Saru over Dier if it comes down to it because they're much closer to the pattern of lurkerscum (even though I think Saru's posts are better).

Also I think they're an unlikely scumteam and if one flips red we can clear the other imo.

[rb]

Pitoli is town from my interactions earlier.
Ryan is town he's just playing awful.
BBT is probably town, I think he's a bad lynch.
Expedience is town, I strong townread Naomi's play and I townlean Expedience. The combination makes me pretty happy with that slot.

I won't lynch in those 4 today.

[rb]

I think with Saru, they made good points against Dierfire initially but it was an overreaction. The stuff Dier said was flimsy but when I re-read it didn't feel scummy, just genuinely flimsy. I think a few people detected that too, people who I townread strongly and I don't think would be buddying scum and/or defending a scumbuddy.

So even though Saru was right that Dier's entrance kinda sucked, I don't think Dier's entrance was scummy and I felt like Saru sat with that a lot and hasn't done much outside of that.

His game also fits the pattern of lurkerscum pretty much to a T. Make some decent, coherent and thoughtful posts, disappear, never really get too involved or interact overly much, low profile.

I think no one's even pressured that slot all game. He's barely getting town or scumreads or being forced to interact, nor is he a catalyst for interaction. Just really coasty - I find Saru to be a good lynch, along with Gameplay/Chuck. That's my top3.

[rb]

Compromise lynches are usually when you lynch someone else that one of your townreads wants to lynch, but you can't get each other to agree. They're not when you lynch the target of one of your top scumreads.

[rb]

Man, Chuck's push on Expedience looks town.

Looks easily faked to me.

[rb]

I think that's a good lynch too.

[rb]

Sorry Chuck I'm short on time but I think BBT's strong townread of your case is premature, I don't think your case itself is scum. What would I say about Martha that isn't said by flip? I already said I wasn't lynching a softclaim because if town she gets NK'd and if scum she's already caught so it's irrelevant.

Glitch being town wasn't entirely unexpected, I felt bad about the wagon. If Icd returned in time to see Glitch's exposition I woulda unvoted because it was townspill when I was doing catchup, but then thread was locked and I realised there'd been a hammer.

[rb]

Just to be clear: I'm saying your push doesn't warrant a strong townread which isn't the same as saying it's scummy kk.

[rb]

I doubt BBT is scum.

Chuck, who are your townreads?

[rb]

It's not a contradiction.

Chuck being town doesn't automatically make Expedience scum. Rofl.

[rb]

Because all the more active slots in the last day (rl day) or so are town I think. I'm trying to PoE. I think Chuck is a bad lynch too. I'm townreading his play today, I think I fucked up on him + Glitch. I'm also kinda busy.

You know what? I think Cass is scum along with Golden and gameplay. I'm pretty damn sure of my townreads. Even though they aren't huge scumreads (except for gameplay) they are way less townread than my other townreads.

Town that I'd bank on:
Expedience
BBT
Ryan
Pitoli

Town enough:
Chuck
Dierfire

Lynch pool:
Gameplay
Golden
Cass

Can we do one of these? My order of preference is Gameplay > Cass > Golden

[rb]

Also Expedience I think you have to understand that my strongest stance is on players being townread by other slots. I'm trying to make some viable scum lynch happen because my preferred one just won't.

[rb]

Oh right there's Saru too. No idea but his walls are big and I skim them. His low posting doesn't feel as scummy if I consider his walls as making up for it. Can I get an opinion from every slot in the game here, answer one question:

Are Saru's walls good enough to make him not lurkerscum? Because if Saru is not lurkerscum, he's town. He's not like playstyle scummy from my POV. Someone might disagree but I really feel we can win this one by PoE.

[rb]

I'm liking rb less and less with each post he makes.
He's gone from self-proclaimed town leader to approval-seeking waffle house.

He's completely okay with Expedience and BBT as well, which a huge red flag, since they are good choices for scum.

There's no wonder there was a mislynch yesterday.
The Mafia are running this town like monkeys running the zoo.

We need to lynch Expedience -> BBT -> maybe rb, if we are to have any shot.

You mad I have like 6 townreads while your only read contribution to the game is, "Expedience is skum guyz!!!"?

There's no approval seeking, this is me sorting slots. If you like my last few posts less and less, point out what because if it's just that you think I'm "approval seeking" then you'd be wrong.

[rb]

Lmao, I'm talking about the number of people I'm townreading not how many townread me.

[rb]

Dierfire is town because their pushes are good and their reads make sense. I actually don't consider Dier lurker.

[rb]

You have less than a post per page Saru, that's my point. Also since I have like 5 people I'm pretty sure are town, that means yes, I am happy to parse the responses I get from everyone and I think I can somewhat trust a few people. I want EVERY slot to weigh in on you though, because it's also good info for later that will help sort your slot as well as others.

[rb]

On the contrary I think Dierfire's votes are all good. IIRC he's pushed on 3 people? I think I mentioned that after re-reading I was more okay with Dier. I don't see them lurking the way you seem to think so.

What I want to know is if you disagree with the lynch pool of: Gameplay, golden, Cass?

Chuck is like honorary member but I think he's a bad lynch today.

[rb]

Or maybe he's good, I dunno. He's pushing real hard on Expedience and people are defending one or the other mostly. What do you think?

Is Chuck vs. Expedience TvT? I have trouble reconciling the fact that Chuck seems like he would be a sensible player but just keeps tunneling a slot that I don't get any kind of scummy vibes from at all.

[rb]

Who's your preferred lynch?

Also do you think Cass is town?

[rb]

I don't get why stating that you're voting for pressure is town, if anything that's just scum because announcing that the vote is just for pressure is basically absolving your vote target of actual pressure. It's a self-defeating thing that I don't see town do very often unless they're just new to the game.

Anyway that thing you just said actually makes me think Cass really is scum. We see it differently, I think that's a reason to NOT townread Cass - she's basically not pressuring or trying to impact the game at all and letting it slide in whatever direction, so long as it's not going to end up in her or one of her buddies being lynched.

VOTE: Cass

[rb]

Also if you don't think Dierfire is a lurker why are you getting in a fit about me saying Dierfire isn't lurkerscum but you might be? You're making less and less sense. You're telling me he should fit my pattern of lurkerscum, but then you tell me you think he isn't lurkerscum? Which is it? Do you agree with me that Dierfire is town and isn't lurkerscum or not?

[rb]

Cass wagon please.

[rb]

Don't try and tell me how I'd read someone as lurkerscum or not. Like you actually agree with me that Dier is not lurkerscum but you're somehow trying to turn this into my read being nonsense?

[rb]

Like Dierfire has nearly triple your posts and up until this point you've barely posted. You have like 5 posts in a few hours, but for the other 2 weeks of gametime you've had 12.

So fuck off with this, "Dierfire must be lurkerscum if I am by your own definition!" you dickhead, because Dierfire's lurkiness is not even in the same fucking solar system as what yours has been.

[rb]

Not to mention that Dierfire has made that triple amount of posts to yours with like 3-4 different V/LA's at certain points, so he is absolutely not fucking lurkerscum UNLESS he's just a shit human who fakes IRL issues to lurk out a victory as scum but I'm pretty sure that like 99% of people are not shit humans that do that just to win games of mafia.

[rb]

You on the other hand barely post shit until you start getting called out for being lurkerscum :^)

[rb]

Except Dierfire doesn't fit that profile. ROFL.

[rb]

Yeah because you're trying to tell me what I do or don't view as lurkerscum, and you seemingly think that it should be impossible for me to read a slot with multiple V/LA's and almost 50 posts as town - while reading a slot with 12 posts and no V/LA's as lurkerscum.

Yeah wow, how could I possibly differentiate between those two slots, that's like so fucking weird yo!

[rb]

Also me being toxic to LQ is because we know each other outside of game and he was deliberately trying to spin shit from out of the game to make me look scummy, when as it turns out he was the actual scum. He was trying to scumframe me by using IRL shit and I already told him to NOT bring IRL shit into this but he kept doing it anyway. It has nothing to do with me trying to 'get townreads'. Stop being a presumptuous little turd.

[rb]

But your huge overreaction to me saying you might be lurkerscum and voting Cass is pretty cute, thanks for helping solve the game. Go sit quietly in the corner now until we're ready to lynch you. Ta.

[rb]

Yes my definition got destroyed...that makes sense because...why?

At the time I wrote that:

Dierfire had over 45 posts.
You had 12.

Dierfire had multiple V/LA's.
You had none.

Despite multiple V/LA's, Dierfire had almost 4x your activity and I also didn't see his posts as scummy. That's why I said the only way Dierfire is scum is if he's lurkerscum, but I don't think he's lurkerscum.

The amount of lurking difference between you and Dier is literally night and day. Your last few posts to me literally account for 1/3rd of your posts in this entire game, and your mockery of my reads that are actually very salient and coherent is just bad regardless of your actual alignment. If you're town, stop sucking. If you're scum, well whatever, you probably are scum.

[rb]

The only overreaction is you bringing up a personal feud from another game, one which you have no contextual understand of, to try and discredit me here in this game. The only motivation for such a thing is to try and upset me or throw shade at me. There's no constructive, game-solving motivation behind such a behaviour. You're either scum or being literally shit town right now. So stop it if you are.

[rb]

The reason I called you a dickhead, is because you're being one. It's objective _FACT_ that the activity comparison of you and Dierfire was COMPLETELY different at the time I wrote that, which means that my definition does NOT have to have you BOTH as lurkerscum. Contrary to some people, I base my reads on the actual happenings of the game. I know you might be upset that you're so easily caught as lurkerscum, or if you're town, upset that you're not getting townreads for your play. Shit happens, play better. If you want to be seen as town, this is not the way.

[rb]

Anyway it's deadlift day so I need to go warm up. Have fun :^)

[rb]

There's no changing. I checked activity when I made the post but didn't explicitly state it. I rarely do state everything I'm thinking because it's not needed. It's also why I make more short posts, I think as I write, I don't really quote-respond-quote-respond in depth. It's boring.

You're trying really hard to strawman me right now but it's not working. Also me skim reading long walls is a thing I usually do. I usually don't have the patience to read long walls of mostly not important stuff.

What I want to know is whether or not you think I'm scum here because what's interesting is that all of the stuff you're saying about me being overconfident or whatever is from a game I was town.

Like you're doing a meta read except you're backwards, lmao.

[rb]

The only overreaction is you bringing up a personal feud from another game, one which you have no contextual understand of, to try and discredit me here in this game. The only motivation for such a thing is to try and upset me or throw shade at me. There's no constructive, game-solving motivation behind such a behaviour. You're either scum or being literally shit town right now. So stop it if you are.

Nah, I know you have a bad rep for being toxic. Don't try to hide it. Go ahead, let it all out. It's who you are as a person and I guess some people just never change.

Try to be creative with your insults btw, "dickhead" is too generic for my tastes. This isn't middle school, you know?

The only purpose this serves is to attack me as a person. Like all people I click with others and butt heads with others.

What's really frustrating though is that you take a game where I was 'toxic' and then try and paint me with the same toxicity - when you have no idea why I was actually toxic in the first place. Not to mention that I'm not doing the same toxic thing here: but you apparently want me to?

Why would a town player try and goad someone into being toxic? Makes no sense.

So yeah, you're just being scummy as fuck. There's zero town motivation in bringing up this sort of shit, let alone trying to goad me into being uncooperative. Like you aren't even doubting whether you want to cooperate with me or not, you just outright want to scumframe me.

We lynch Cass or Saru today.

[rb]

I kinda want to wait for Golden's replace.

[rb]

@Saru, get off the high horse dickhead, it's nauseating.

[rb]

@Expedience, Saru is playing victim just like scum always do. His reaction to being called a dickhead is hugely overblown. He's scum pretending to be upset for townpoints.

[rb]

Oh and scum pretty much always take the opportunity to goad someone into frustration if they can so you're definitely wrong there.

[rb]

Your argument against me is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "I know you are, but what am I!?"

All because you couldn't argue your way out of your shitty inconsistent reads.

ROFL.

Dierfire has 4x your posts and multiple V/LA, but you keep trying to say it's "inconsistent" for me to say he wouldn't be lurkerscum and that you might be. And then you have the nerve to try and tell me what I meant by my own definition, which by the way, absolutely doesn't mean that I "must" see Dierfire as lurkerscum and that I can't think you're lurkerscum.

@BBT, stop being shit. You of all people should be able to see that I'm town.

[rb]

Also Dierfire really doesn't split up his posts as much as you're accusing him of. He does it a little bit but his activity was still way above yours Saru. It's just an objective fact, no need to get mad over it - let alone when I didn't even say you were scum, I was trying to sort your slot.

[rb]

Anyway I think Cass and Saru are the best lynches for the day. Still think Gameplay is scum but no one seems to even want to go near a gameplay lynch. Which I find really weird in a game with 11 people alive, but oh well.

[rb]

You mean just like how you got "upset" out of nowhere from me asking you simple questions? Funny how you use the same argument against me that I used against you. You keep throwing counter-punch after counter-punch.

Ummm...no.

You literally tried to tell me what I meant by my own definition, as if you can somehow read my own definition better than I can. You kept insisting there's an inconsistency, when there isn't one. Dierfire had been much more active than you had been, period. This was just a basic fact, and it made perfect sense to separate your two slots based on activity levels.

What got me upset was not that you asked a "simple question" it was actually that you neglected to bother to ask me why I separated your two slots and instead jumped straight into misrepping me and making out like my definitions and reads were wildly inconsistent, when they were based on actual fact. You've been trying to warp facts as well as warp the things I've actually said. That's why I outright told you that if you're town, just stop. You were and are still wrong. You need to accept this and move on already.

If you're scum, then whatever. I guess I can't expect you to actually see reason here since your goal isn't to sort slots but to mislead people. Guess I just have to hope people won't be stupid enough to fall for it if you really are scum.

[rb]

Anyway it can't be talked about but Cass is confscum, just vote her and get this day over with.

[rb]

Okay so it's TvT, let's assume we're right and dese fights are generally TvT. That means the town we can bet on are:

Chuck
Expedience
Saru
rb
gameplay

We lynch from outside that pool?

[rb]

It's funny how I'm town until I call rb scum and then I'm not town anymore.

He can 100% be lynched after Golden.

Wat?

I said that you of all people should recognize my town game. I didn't say you were scum. What insane game have I entered into where people apparently don't read?

[rb]

You're either investigative role or scum.

[rb]

^@Cass

[rb]

Whatever, but golden wagon seems way too easy. It's like the most obvious choice and no one seems to be really pointing out how bad it is which makes me think it's not a scum slot.

[rb]

VOTE: Golden

But yes Golden was scummy so, whatever.

[rb]

Can you read the context of that post again?

[rb]

Holy shit you actually just edited out the part of the post that explains what I'm talking about? ROFL.

[rb]

Okay so it's TvT, let's assume we're right and dese fights are generally TvT. That means the town we can bet on are:

Chuck
Expedience
Saru
rb
gameplay

We lynch from outside that pool?

Expedience keeps saying these fights are TvT style (as does someone else, Cass I think?) and it's making me uncomfortable because in my experience that's not the case. I see these fights all the time from scum, and it's infuriating the fuck out of me that it's apparently "townie" to just fight about stuff. I don't "fight" because I'm town I fight because my points are being misrepped - and misrepping other people isn't something town TRY to do, these slots are TRYING to misrep and aren't making any effort to be co-operative.

How that is apparently town behaviour, I don't know.

[rb]

-________________________-

*pours triple shot of vodka*

[rb]

Then I'm pretty sure it's Cass who was saying that this stuff is generally TvT.

[rb]

Anyway when I think about it I can maybe allow some room for the fact that Saru's just not getting the point and thinks he's right about something when he's actually not and that he's not necessarily scum.

Gameplay/Cass/Golden then?

[rb]

Hi Math (:

[rb]

UNVOTE: Mathblade

I'm happy to give them time.

[rb]

Talk to me about scum Expedience when you're done Mathblade.

[rb]

I am liking MathBlade already. Welcome.

Talk to me about scum Expedience when you're done Mathblade.

Are you serious?? NOW you want to hear about scum Expedience? When he flips scum, you're next.

VC 2.5

MathBlade (4)

: BlueBloodedToffee, Expedience, Dierfire, Cass

Cass (1)

: pitoli

BlueBloodedToffee (1)

: RyanK

Dierfire (1):

Saru

Not Voting:

gameplay506, MathBlade, Chuck

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-23 14:00:30)

Can't post songs, been stuck in China for the past week.

@mod

, I just noticed you never counted my Expedience vote (this changes all vote counts from 2.3 onwards):

Vote: Expedience

Because I really haven't liked the way they read Saru and my interactions. I don't think your case makes sense but yeah if they flip scum and you flip town then obviously I fucked up but if I don't see someone as scummy or like your reasoning why would I make shit up?

[rb]

I mean I've already said it like 20 times: just lynch gameplay. The only difference between you and me Chuck is that I'm sorting more than one slot and not just tunneling gameplay.

His lack of participation whenever his slot isn't under pressure is just fucking eww. Gameplay is scum and I dunno what else can be said to make ppl see it. Like if we could just lynch Gameplay that'd be gr8.

[rb]

Also this is town Mathblade imo. Golden I thought was town really early but they stopped contributing, I actually think this slot is most likely town.

[rb]

People will sheep my because I'm BBT though.

You know this.

Nope.

VOTE: BBT

[rb]

This is the fake confidence of scum BBT. I didn't see it until now.

[rb]

And no, your recent posts to me were just wrong. Saying I should be next lynch after golden without reason, then after saying I'd changed my reads (when I hadn't) and you go, "oh okay I get your point now" - but then you never redacted wanting me as next lynch.

Wanting golden dead before replace, it's all very much the scum game I've seen you play before, goading town into hasty decisions.

[rb]

Even though I townread Ryan I'm losing patience.

We're at page 68 and you're still asking questions about page 8.

[rb]

Even though I townread Ryan I'm losing patience.

We're at page 68 and you're still asking questions about page 8.

Are you suggesting I shouldn't read and question past posts?

I'm suggesting you should read the important happenings in the game and provide your thoughts as opposed to just giving one line questions on things well and truly covered already.

[rb]

Math did town stuff.

Golden was a compromise lynch because we're not lynching gameplay or Cass. Mathblade entering and looking town is good. Also since I think (know) Cass is scum I wasn't unhappy with the idea that she might be bussing golden for towncred, since the slot is basically totally inactive anyway. I don't think it's a scumslot with Math's entrance.

[rb]

Also I didn't pick up on this, but when you entered the game you really wanted to lynch Cass, and you townread me.

Now you think Cass is an unacceptable lynch and you think I'm scum. What changed?

[rb]

Enough that I'm not willing to comprise-lynch the slot.

[rb]

EBWOP: compromise*

[rb]

Also gameplay is just lurking at any point that his slot isn't under pressure but you have him as an unacceptable lynch

[rb]

Nope.

[rb]

This is town Math and scum BBT. You hid the faux-confidence for a long time and I've had a lot less time to actually dive your ISO in this game, but I'm doing it now because Math pointed out stuff that I didn't catch and the scumread makes sense.

[rb]

Behold the nauseating over-confidence of scum BBT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[rb]

Math's read is 100% correct imo, I just didn't see it because I was looking for the same style/attitude you had in the last scum game but you hid it well. Math brought it out and now there's no way I can not vote you.

[rb]

Meh, start crying "discredit" again if you want but I already summarised what I found scummy about your actions this game.

Also it's the exact same trick you pulled in that game I just linked where you refuse to answer questions under the guise of some silly reasoning, like because I didn't give you the exact answer you wanted, you can just not answer any questions. An excuse to outlurk pressure.

[rb]

And no, your recent posts to me were just wrong. Saying I should be next lynch after golden without reason, then after saying I'd changed my reads (when I hadn't) and you go, "oh okay I get your point now" - but then you never redacted wanting me as next lynch.

Wanting golden dead before replace, it's all very much the scum game I've seen you play before, goading town into hasty decisions.

^^

[rb]

Still haven't explained why you went from "we should really lynch Cass" and "rb is town" to "we should really lynch rb and Cass is an unacceptable lynch".

Same thing done in 1727 where you ended up buddying Accountant. If you're scum I doubt Cass is a scumpartner actually so I'd be wrong there. It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

[rb]

Also it's weird af that you have Cass as an 'unacceptable lynch' with me as one of your most preferred, but you lump Cass into the same questioning with me and question her unvoting Golden. Is she unacceptable because she's town or because you're looking for a buddy?

[rb]

Her responses aren't scum.

What I'd like to see is you explain your scumread on Math, since you're the one who wants us to lynch that slot?

[rb]

See right now you're not actually playing Mafia, you're distracting people from playing Mafia by making discussion about points that are actually completely irrelevant to the game. Math has pointed out multiple times that you have like, zero reasons for your scumread(s) and you're doing everything BUT provide reasons, while simultaneously throwing shade elsewhere to make someone else look worse in the hope people will decide to lynch them over you.

[rb]

Because what's important here is that you're REFUSING to answer Math's petition for you to provide reasons for your scumreads, which is the principle reason for this discussion in the first place. Me voting you is about that, as well as other recent stuff you've done (already outlined) - me not giving a strong explanation of my townread on Math isn't all that important because what's important is that I'm voting for scum right now and that I have good reasons for doing so. Also if you look early in my ISO I was already townreading Golden, but they just stopped contributing with no explanation. Math entered, their responses are town imo because their goal seems to be genuinely solving game.

And no I'm not going to point out exactly the things they're doing that are game-solving because I'm tired of highlighting to scum exactly how to play around my filter. Especially when they have day talk.

[rb]

Wanna explain the Math town read or keep dodging?

Lmao

It's been like 3-4 pages of someone asking you why you're scumreading Mathblade and now you're going to throw shade and try to act like it's other people who're doding.

[rb]

Anyone currently falling for this, needs to read this ISO of BBT from a game I played with him recently:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

[rb]

You can call meta reads weak if you want, but if you 'mix it up' all the time then why are your patterns here so eerily similar to that^ game?

You're saying you were given a town role in this game and you decided to act just like you did in one of your recent scum games? That's why you're scummy af - you were really, really different to that game so I thought, "ok he's different" and then in a flash when Math started pressuring you, you reverted really, really blatantly to that same style I'd seen before. Mixing it up I can buy, but not when your persona switches in the middle of a game as soon as you get put under pressure.

[rb]

Nah, what's important is that you explain your scumread on Math.

Also stop trying to misrep and throw shade already. Golden was an early-game TOWNREAD for me, but their disappearance once their slot was out of focus looked scummy, they just went off the map. Math's entrance is game-solving and townlike. So I'm fine with putting Golden as town since they were a compromise lynch. Town BBT is smart enough to understand this.

[rb]

Lmao I wonder if Ryan is scum with BBT.

[rb]

I legit think I might have had this game entirely backwards :^)

[rb]

Dat fake confidence <3

[rb]

Ryan just vote BBT with me. You'll be rewarded with the euphoria of seeing scum die.

[rb]

So BBT, gonna give reasons for your top scumreads? Because you still haven't given any reasons for your top lynches, or why your previous top lynch became your lowest priority lynch.

[rb]

Man, I really want rb to be town so I can gloat post-game.

We should lynch Math. He is scum.

PEdit - Nah.

Oh boy, where have I seen this one before

Remember when you were scum telling me how sorry I'd be for mislynching you? Then you flipped scum. Also I still don't think you realise even if you flipped town I still would have said it was your own shitty play that got you lynched. I have zero sympathy for players who get mislynched as town, it's their own fault.

You're being scummy as fuck right now and if you're town you can blame your own shit play, nothing else.

[rb]

Hey Ryan I already explained it. Also why are you suddenly so interested in the current state of affairs? Shouldn't you be reading stuff from page 1?

[rb]

Dat strawman tho.

[rb]

Why don't you just read it? Wtf.

[rb]

Ryan you need to understand that Math was asking BBT to explain his reads for like 4 pages and he refused. Then I voted him and he took the opportunity to try and make it look like _I'm_ the one dodging stuff here, despite the fact he did it for 4 pages straight and then he makes up some stupid stipulation that "I'm not answering because you didn't answer me!" when actually, he's been refusing to answer well before we started talking - so he's not answering because he's not answering, it's independent of anything I'm doing.

He's throwing shade and providing no reasons for his scumreads, I'm providing reasons for my scumreads. That's the difference.

Also it's just bad to constantly explain your townreads as it just telegraphs to scum what you're looking for in a town player. I've done it WAY too fucking much already this game and I've pre-explained strategies I wanted to use just for your benefit because you keep saying, "you should explain!!!" and because you're new and absolutely shit, I figure I'll try to help you. But honestly just get out of the fucking way. I think you're town but you're being a hindrance.

[rb]

Where am I discrediting you BBT? Show me.

[rb]

I provided reasons for math townread, I provided reasons for BBT scumread - where am I discrediting or dodging? I'm not.

You're the one dodging giving any reasons for providing reads, taking as much attention away from the fact that you have none as much as possible. You're doing nothing but throw shade right now.

[rb]

Mathblade's slot was a compromise lynch in the first place, and my Golden townread was explained early on. I've said this about 5 times now so I'm not going to keep repeating it. I was willing to compromise on Golden because they started lurking. If you think Mathblade's entrance is scummy or that Golden's scummy, make a case because right now you're not even playing the game, that's why you're scum.

[rb]

Yup, not going to repeat it again. It's been explained 5 times.

[rb]

Ryan you need to understand that Math was asking BBT to explain his reads for like 4 pages and he refused. Then I voted him and he took the opportunity to try and make it look like _I'm_ the one dodging stuff here, despite the fact he did it for 4 pages straight and then he makes up some stupid stipulation that "I'm not answering because you didn't answer me!" when actually, he's been refusing to answer well before we started talking - so he's not answering because he's not answering, it's independent of anything I'm doing.

He's throwing shade and providing no reasons for his scumreads, I'm providing reasons for my scumreads. That's the difference.

Also it's just bad to constantly explain your townreads as it just telegraphs to scum what you're looking for in a town player. I've done it WAY too fucking much already this game and I've pre-explained strategies I wanted to use just for your benefit because you keep saying, "you should explain!!!" and because you're new and absolutely shit, I figure I'll try to help you. But honestly just get out of the fucking way. I think you're town but you're being a hindrance.

I also understand that. If you don't allow BlueBloodedToffee from even using that argument against you, it would make it even easier to expose him without a lengthy argument.

What are you even talking about?

Can you please just stick to Newbie games?

[rb]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=23899

Super short ISO - see scum read on Dave with no reasoning. Literally the first game I clicked.

Yeah except that no reasoning last for 3-4 posts, not 30-40 pages

[rb]

I like how that game also features BBT telling people they're AtE'ing and dodging stuff over and over while neglecting to actually play the game

[rb]

Ryan the post was literally made so recently that all you have to do is CLICK ON THE FUCKING ISO BUTTON and stop shitting up the thread with your shit questions.

[rb]

Why the fuck would I re-post the same shit I've already said multiple times when you can just click the ISO button and read it? In fact, it's just so unintuitive to think in that way, as if people just enter on the last page of a thread and instead of reading to catch up start demanding people to re-quote their own responses so that they can catch up real time instead of re-reading to get up to speed. Are you even a human?

[rb]

Nope, that's actually pathetic BBT because any town player with half a brain should realise that Scum BBT playing games where he explains stuff doesn't mean he can't be scum for not explaining stuff in this game.

How about you now find a TOWN game where town BBT spends 40 pages never explaining stuff?

[rb]

While simultaneously dodging questions, pushing for speed lynches and so on - because I have meta of scum BBT doing that in multiple games now, but it's not seen in town meta :^)

[rb]

Like, just because you explained stuff as scum in another game does NOT mean that spending 40 pages not explaining stuff makes you town in another game

[rb]

(It's also very debatable whether or not you're "explaining" anything in majority of the samples I'm reading in your ISO's from those games)

[rb]

No. That's fallacious reasoning.

Just because you've explained scumreads before in another game, does not mean that your alignment is town when you spend 40 pages NOT explaining something in another game. In fact, aren't you the one who says you deliberately mix up your meta to throw people off?

[rb]

So in other words, we should just take all meta as NAI and instead realise you're obviously scum because you're deliberately avoiding explaining anything and are dodging questions for 6 pages by bringing up irrelevant misnomers and defending yourself with fallacious reasoning, as opposed to trying to find and lynch scum ^_^

[rb]

Ty for scumclaim BBT <3

[rb]

Just vote him already.

[rb]

Those are not reasons, that's just interacting and explaining points to people or asking them questions.

Nowhere in there is there something like, "you're scummy because of X, Y, Z"

Also this was really familiar:

[quote=BBT]"go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around. Therefore, your reasoning for your ABR town read is false and I call BS."[/quote]

Boy, where have I seen BBT try and make out like someone else's "bad townread" is a reason for that person being scum again? I swear I've seen it before but I just can't seem to remember :/

Help me out here BBT?

[rb]

Rb now scum reading me for defending myself with meta when asked to defend myself with meta.

That's hilarious.

Not for doing it, but for what's in there and the way you're spinning fallacious rubbish that isn't actually relevant.

[rb]

You're making a very big point of trying to get across why the things you're posting should absolutely clear your name: except they don't. You're not arguing from a point of logic or problem solving, it's purely trying to get yourself out of being scumread and/or maneuver yourself into throwing shade on Math or myself. It's not a town defense oriented on, "hey I'm an open book come to your own conclusions" it's, "hey look at this that proves I'm not scum!" when it really doesn't - and I know that most town players wouldn't even WANT other people to just auto-townread them based on something like that either.

[rb]

Let's not forget that I have actually explained scum reads in this game as well.

So the accusation that I'm not explaining reads is flat out false.

Who, cass? That scumread became an 'unacceptable lynch' in your eyes - and that shift is as unexplained as your Mathblade scumread.

[rb]

Also BBT, if you've got explained reads doesn't that mean your meta _DOES_ show that you explain reads as scum?

And so basically you've been fucking dancing completely around in circles trying to say Math's meta read is really bad, when actually...your play here DOES fit your scum meta? ROFL.

[rb]

So in other words, you've been throwing a whole lot of shade at Math for a 'bad' read when actually it's completely justified because really you have been playing to an observably scummy meta.

[rb]

I was talking to BBT Ryan...not you

[rb]

Rb scum reading my no matter what I do.

Can we lynch Math and rb now please. You will be highly rewarded.

Maybe because you're avoiding explaining anything no matter what, contradicting yourself, using fallacious logic and misleading statements and throwing shade at people instead of trying to solve the game - all while playing to a meta that fits your scum game. Also, despite you making a big deal about 'mixing it up' a lot your scumgames all have a pretty distinct feel over nausea-inducing fake confidence. That feel alone is enough for me to think you're scum.

[rb]

My case is Golden was scum and therefore Math is scum.

I do believe that it was you who told a new player that when palying as town, reads should always be open to new information.

But for some reason, you're sticking to more than week-old reads instead of adapting to Mathblade's replacement. You're doing this because you're scum and not town adapting reads to new information

[rb]

By that logic we should lynch Cass then no? Since your track record is you picking the scum eearly game?

Also 4 posts isn't 40 pages

[rb]

Why should we suddenly NOT lynch Cass when you really wanted us to lynch her earlier?

[rb]

Why not Cass?

[rb]

Also how come you messed up in 1264 then?

[rb]

What changed from 1231 and 1234 to now?

But BBT: I thought we established that you HAVE been making explanations in this game? That's what you said right?

[rb]

No I didn't actually request that because as I've already pointed out it's all moot since you yourself say it's all NAI because you 'mix it up' anyway. But the discernible meta from what you're posting is that this game right now is your scumgame

That leaves; Chuck, Saru, Cass, Golden and gameplay. <--- Scum are in here.

^ Why is it that Chuck, Cass and Gameplay are no longer part of this? Is the scumteam Math, Saru, rb? That's all that's left.

[rb]

^ and I'm an extra addition, so you've basically abandoned all of that idea apart from Golden?

What's your read on Saru?

[rb]

You were townreading chuck though? ROFL

[rb]

Except it doesn't refute my scumread, as I've already pointed out

[rb]

Can you click the ISO button?

Ohh right, this is the exact same question you asked me in Newbie 1727 and then when I summarised you went and tried to shit all over it - except I was right. So fuck you.

[rb]

Man, Chuck's push on Expedience looks town.

^

But you wanna lynch him anyway? Why you want to lynch someone you think is town?

[rb]

So, "Chuck's push on Expedience looks town."

"We should lynch Math/rb/Chuck"

LUL

[rb]

Hey Chuck if you lynch BBT with me and he flips scum, I'll lynch Expedience tomorrow because that's a viable scumteam.

If we lynch BBT and he flips town, I'll self-vote and you can lynch me instead. I'm THAT sure of my BBT scumread. Kthx.

[rb]

Saying that someone's push looks town isn't saying that you think they're town? O_o

ROFL

What?

[rb]

^ bluff. Let's do it.

[rb]

More BBT votes please.

[rb]

Going to bed now. When I awake BBT should be dead, upon which point all town members will be greatly rewarded with the euphoric feeling of seeing scum lynched.

[rb]

Gnite.

[rb]

@Ryan in the game I linked of BBT's ISO I townread Accountant from Day 1 purely because "it looks like town Accountant" and never explained beyond that. Newbie 1727. On phone during lunch break so no time to go link it.

[rb]

I did the same in Newbie 1723 as well, there was 1 or 2 slots I just said were town and I left them there. I also did it in Gistou (large theme) where I had 3-4 townreads because they 'felt' town and I didn't elaborate.

[rb]

For him to pull off this act (if it was an act) of reverse-psychology-scumlord would require him to actually be really, really good at the game. Good enough to be capable of recognizing what is and isn't a useful thing to say and to consistently keep up this persona, even through high pressure (he's at L-2) and to continuously be able to come up with enough material to keep himself in that range of never actually contributing that much but also still being coherently incoherent. RyanK is the most obvious town that ever obvious towned.

Careful making such assumptions. I was in a game not that long ago where the newbtown read blazed to a glorious victory for her scum team.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=67031

About to head home and then hit the gym, but I'll post more this weekend. Was that boring? I know her outside game, she's very, very intelligent and has a knack for this kind of game - it's an outlier not the norm imo. But fair enough that you bring it up.

[rb]

I'll get to other stuff soon - when is deadline? I'll try to respond adequately with at least a day or two to spare.

[rb]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

I said BBT was best lynch.

[rb]

Havent read yet will read after work.
However I did see last vote count I am at L-1 I am a VT.

Please give me a chance to read the thread and post thoughts.

And FYI my pronoun is them.

Why did you claim immediately before even reading the thread?

I thought you were the person always getting annoyed when people claimed prematurely

L-1 claim is fairly standard no?

[rb]

I'm semi-ignoring you because I don't enjoy interacting with you.

I was inactive because I was studying for my exam which was today.

You are ignoring me... because you don't enjoy interacting with me?

That's funny, I thought it was because you were compromising!

Silly me!

Seriously just stop I don't even know what you're trying to say

BBT, is your read on Mathblade 100% gut or you just don't want to explain? I don't know what to think of that, I didn't like how rb kept asking "why are you scumreading them?" and you just kept repeating "its null for me not to explain" rather than actually answering. Because at this point I'm worrying that you are not actually this confbiased and just faking bravado.

I don't even trust my scumreads at this point I just gave my vote to BBT.

It's fake bravado.

[rb]

Also just quickly @House: BBT's providing of meta didn't disprove the meta, just btw.

He's provided games where he made like less than 10 posts as town with some unexplained reads. But what he's doing here isn't just a few posts. He's dodging questions for page after page after page even with multiple people requesting answers. A few unexplained reads isn't the same as this eternal dodging BBT is doing here, something he's done as scum before and if you look @ the meta he provided is actually very consistent with his scum games, especially the way he tries to make out that the people asking him to explain his reads are somehow being unreasonable or scummy for asking him to explain his TOP scumread.

It's not like I'm pressuring him to provide details on his null-reads or anything, Golden/Math is literally his TOP scumread but he has zero answers and doesn't even try to answer the question, instead deflects as much attention as possible away from this fact by trying to blame

everyone but himself

for him not giving reads.

Like he can't explain it because he asked me a question and I didn't answer? Rubbish.
What's even more rubbish is that even after I answered, he still refused to answer. So then he moved the goalposts to something like, "it's in my town meta to not explain" - coming up with reason after reason to do anything BUT explain his read, which makes zero sense because by pure numbers there's now been five slots that have asked him to do so - it's impossible for all of those slots to be scum slots, yet he still refuses to co-operate with any of them. Why?

What town motivation is there in deliberately not co-operating with and trying to discredit and throw shade on that many slots in the game? There is none. It's absolutely shit town play - and BBT isn't shit.

[rb]

I don't care if you asked him if the sky was green in Spanish and then translated into binary.

The point is RB should have responded and didn't.

You apologizing for the lack of response is suspect.

Huh, what'd I miss?

[rb]

I'm not lynching BBT.

End of story.

Those of you screaming for his head need to remember that there is more than one reason for anti-town play besides drawing a scum role pm.

So what's the town motivation for BBT's play then?

[rb]

Because I think you need to understand that you're being really obvious right now because you're pretty much admitting that BBT is being really anti-town and therefore you think he's town?

You're not applying any pressure for him to shape up, despite agreeing he's being anti-town?

You've quoted multiple posts of mine and even said they were strong townie posts, while admitting BBT is being anti-town, but if it 'comes down to it' you think it's me who should be lynched?

House and BBT are scum.

[rb]

Also I have no idea who House replaced, I missed it.

[rb]

Oh ROFL it's gameplays slot.

Can we just kill BBT + House now? Thanks.

[rb]

I'll do either one first.

Chuck stop being a dickface and DO SOMETHING

[rb]

I also think Dier + BBT is impossible scumteam at this point unless BBT is randomly distancing from him at the moment. If BBT flips red then Dier is town.

[rb]

That's because BBT has just dropped his case on me btw and is now trying to get a Dier counterwagon instead. At this point I think a BBT flip tells a hell of a lot. The way House has entered game and is like, "yeh BBT is being anti-town but that's his meta!"

But hang on, I thought all meta on BBT was inherently bad because he mixes it up? Why does BBT have zero suspicion that House might be buddying him right now?

[rb]

BBT can't flip red.

Guess we have to lynch you instead

[rb]

Like you sound pretty confident about BBT flipping town and I can see a possibility where you're scum, we lynch BBT and it turns to "told you rb is scum guys!" when I'm actually town.

VOTE: House

[rb]

There's just all kinds of things wrong with shit being said by House right now that don't add up.

[rb]

It'a House you need to vote, Chuck.

[rb]

Why do we think BBT is cop anyway?

[rb]

You should really vote BBT, Expedience.

BBT is way faker than Chuck, even though Chuck is nauseatingly one-track.

[rb]

Or House is a good lynch as well imo.

[rb]

Expedience do you see Chuck/BBT as viable scumpair?

[rb]

Saru is meta and "gut" something is wrong there. I don't know how to explain it but even after looking at Saru's other stuff it just doesn't feel right.

My RB read is in my ISO and mainly RB is less confrontational as town IMHO. And some posts feel slimy. In Gistou (my playing experience with him) he started town and when I fake poked him he just brushed it off. He got confrontational after we made him join us. That and his interactions feel wrong as indicated in my ISO.

A few things:
1. Take a look at Newbie 1727 and tell me town!rb isn't confrontational
2. In Mini 1820 where I was force-replaced for it
3. Look at Dragon Age Mafia if you still doubt
4. I was actually more confrontational early in Gistou, but I actually townread you really strongly. If you look at my interactions with Ceph/RAM/Wayward who I was scumreading I was REALLY confrontational
5. I actually enjoy your play regardless of my suspected alignment, which I admit influences me being less confrontational towards you - I have more patience than with most others

You need to re-evaluate your read with those things in mind. Being 'off' isn't a thing I can defend against but I get your point since it's how I often end up scumreading people and being right too. If you have something I can actually respond to then feel free.

[rb]

Why is House NOT a good lynch?

[rb]

I can kill Cass/House/BBT

[rb]

Saru is meta and "gut" something is wrong there. I don't know how to explain it but even after looking at Saru's other stuff it just doesn't feel right.

My RB read is in my ISO and mainly RB is less confrontational as town IMHO. And some posts feel slimy. In Gistou (my playing experience with him) he started town and when I fake poked him he just brushed it off. He got confrontational after we made him join us. That and his interactions feel wrong as indicated in my ISO.

A few things:
1. Take a look at Newbie 1727 and tell me town!rb isn't confrontational
2. In Mini 1820 where I was force-replaced for it
3. Look at Dragon Age Mafia if you still doubt
4. I was actually more confrontational early in Gistou, but I actually townread you really strongly. If you look at my interactions with Ceph/RAM/Wayward who I was scumreading I was REALLY confrontational
5. I actually enjoy your play regardless of my suspected alignment, which I admit influences me being less confrontational towards you - I have more patience than with most others

You need to re-evaluate your read with those things in mind. Being 'off' isn't a thing I can defend against but I get your point since it's how I often end up scumreading people and being right too. If you have something I can actually respond to then feel free.

Not responding to this post as it involves an active game. Please do not discuss them.

They're all finished.

[rb]

Sorry Dragon Age isn't my bad :/

[rb]

Respond to the other 3 please. Also I really need you to elaborate on what is 'off' or to look at those completed games.

[rb]

I can kill Cass/House/BBT

How in the hell is BBT in your list after I've possibly explained how he is town???

......

Because you even said yourself you're not even sure it's just a hunch and I don't see it. Like it's so dumb, "BBT is being rly anti-town so he must be PR or scum and I think it's PR because I have a hunch".

Also mafia having daychat is obviously influencing the game at this point. BBT is still drawing attention away from the fact he hasn't explained anything and has dodged questions page after page and abandoned trying to get me lynched for Dier instead.

Most obvious counterwagon ever.