Mini 1327: Murder in the Louvre- Day 6

[Nuwen]

vote Yosarian2

I know

.

[Nuwen]

OMGOMG DON'T LYNCH ME ME IS INNOCENT

Wait, I'm confused here. Are you scum, or are you not not scum?

Clearly a godfather.

[Nuwen]

Coming from someone fresh from a game with Paramascum, I can assure you we're doing both town and his team a favor by

unvote, vote Parama

[Nuwen]

oh.

i thought that was a lynch but it's just L-1

Anyway. I'm not going to disagree with a Parama lynch but Nuwen you suck seriously what is that shit vote

also I'm worried about Vi. VI YOU SCUM [COLLOQUIAL PRONOUN]???

Quote exactly what has given you an indication of Parama being town, and explain why you do not want to lynch him here and now.

[Nuwen]

So you wouldn't be opposed to a Parama lynch, but don't want it NOW, and also believe both Yos and I are scum for as a result of our votes on Parama?

unvote, vote Quilford

Fuck page 5. Page 6 is where the lynch is at. Cut Parama loose, I caught real scum. You see this shit all the time now; scum don't know whether to commit to a defense of a townie or take the juicy hammer thrust in front of their faces. Instead, they waffle their reads on the wagon'd player ("he's probably scum... but I want more information first") player and try to shift suspicion onto the tail-end voters.

[Nuwen]

Whoa. Couldn't have asked for more textbook trashing.

also yeah

yos is giving me the odd vibes like i give kids candy

oh.

i thought that was a lynch but it's just L-1

Anyway. I'm not going to disagree with a Parama lynch but

Nuwen you suck seriously what is that shit vote

also I'm worried about Vi.

VI YOU SCUM [COLLOQUIAL PRONOUN]???

like i didn't even say ANYWHERE that i considered nuwen or yos scum

You are either lying or reversing your reads under pressure. Both are scummy.

Mafia is way too easy now.

~~~

I've also translated/transliterated the Hebrew tidbit in the opening flavor and submitted a PM. I don't want to reveal the "answer" because I don't know what it does or how it relates to scum, but I WILL say the result took about 20 minutes of fast googling to figure out.

[Nuwen]

Any anger from Quilford stems from him being scum caught "for the wrong reasons" in his mind. Notice how many times he repeats it's early game, nothing is certain, etc. His responses to additional pressure are equally scum-slanted.

I'll lynch Uberninja too (wasn't it understood that I never, EVER want to play in another game with you?), and firebomb anyone else who wants to stand in the way of my lynch agenda. Policy, scum, and holy retribution are all the same to me D1.

Stickyvote remaining on Quilford, but you can consider me an advocate of the Uberninja wagon. I'll throw my hat onto it or hammer given HALF an opportunity.

[Nuwen]

Vi, why did you wait until 52 to vote shos? Why not vote in 48?

I think Vi is scum. She has done nothing but push easy lynches on Shos and Parama, who, despite her claims, is not obvscum.

Unvote, Vote Vi

Yos and Nuwen, what is your read on Vi?

Vi isn't even kind of the lynch today, put your vote somewhere useful.

Scum do NOT often take an immediately post-RVS case and run with it for pages. You might see this behavior in less than one of any twenty mafia games with competent, attentive people. Scum have a tendency to chime in on formed wagons riiiiight about NOW in the gamestate, or lurk behind their RVS vote until there's enough content to compile a case.

[Nuwen]

And Shos is the guy FoSing anyone "bandwagoning." I'll turbolynch that crap off the site too.

Every game is a step closer to a brighter, better MS meta.

[Nuwen]

"Scum

caught

for

the

wrong

reasons."

Don't even bother finding a replacement, just kill it. It OMGUS'd pretty much anything on it in a fit of flaility flail ffs.

Uberninja stop spamming the thread.

[Nuwen]

If Quilford flips scum, kanye is his buddy.

kanye is probscum regardless of Quilford's alignment.

Not feeling like taking the Quilbait atm.

You know you want to. 1 & done it.

[Nuwen]

Kanye has no reason to diligently tunnel on the Quilford slot as scum, with so much other fucking fodder in this game. I read his convinction as stronk and value the support behind my top wagon. The replacement has done nothing to alleviate my scum read on it, especially after voting for Kanye. At this point in the game, scum really have no choice but to attack their attackers.

[Nuwen]

Uberninja is clogging the thread. When the Elmo/Quil slot flips scum we'll know which buddy tried to save his ass. Leave it alone for now.

The IMPORTANT right now is anyone not touching Quilford's slot with a 10 foot pole. If you're commenting only on alternate wagons or ignoring this lead entirely, you're next. Weigh in.

Elmo TeH AzN (4): Nuwen, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Furcolow,
Chiarosicada (3):

Zar

, charter, Parama,
kanyeknowsbest (2): Elmo teh AzN, Vi,
Parama (2):

Chiarosicada, shos,

shos (2):

diddin,

UberNinja,

[Nuwen]

Yosarian has begun to look better but I can't shake the suspicion.

I still want him lynched today or tomorrow.

And do you really think I'd try to pull a scumbuddy out of the fire by running interference against Yosari2005 as a 2012ling myself?

Yes.

One of these things is not like the other one. "Running interference" = "wielding a chainsaw." Uberninja has consistently attacked every early wagoner against Quilford or tried to spam "CRAP CASE CRAP CASE SHIT SHIT CRAP" to get it dismissed.

~~~

Nuwen, is clogging the thread scummy or just anti-town? Maybe if you posted more then it wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Furcolow what do you think about all this?

I'm going to clarify with "clogging the thread" looks like, especially when done by a scumbuddy trying to pull someone out of the water D1.

First, you need to get as MANY players talking to and about other players as possible. The easiest way to do this is asking for megalists of scum/town reads (but followup is rare when they can't be used as part of a counter-case, because the asker isn't really using them to scumhunt).

Make no mistake: asking for opinions on other players' alignments isn't inherently scummy at all. Asking and then NEVER CARING ABOUT THE ANSWER is just a way of generating possible content to distract away from a caught buddy. Very easy to do on day 1, when the entire game is alive and there is no nightplay to supplement reads. Check out Uberninja's ISO and count the dozen+ times he asks specific players for reads, and then neglects to followup when ignored.

Like I said, the case against Uberninja is pretty airtight when Quilford flips scum.

[Nuwen]

Cool story bro, what's your stance on Yosarian then?

Yosarian strikes me as townish from his contributions.

#118 + #143 strike me as honest suspicion of Parama.
#145 I liked his response to UN's 144, who seems eager to stretch whatever is happening.
#154 feels like a genuine pro-town response. Day 1 is mostly for gathering information. True, you may find certain players suspicious, but hardly you will have a hard opinion on everyone (or on most players) by page 7.
#380 I like that he's asking for explanations of cases on other people have.
#403 & #414 look like ideas coming from an innocent mindset. I agree with him on what I would expect from someone looking for possible connections in the scumhunt. It's not like Kanye's case on Quilford is based on these connections (which would make a terrible case).

Hey you. Quilford wagon.

[Nuwen]

Hey you. Quilford wagon.

I'm not in the wagon because I don't really get where the hell all the quilford hate comes from. @Kanye: How exactly do you find that quilford's D1 joke votes are damning evidence?

Being pissed and asking for a replacement doesn't really strike me as a scumtell, it strikes me as a theatrical from somoene who doesn't think he can reason with whomever is pushing for his wagon.

As for the replacement, I don't see Elmo doing anything striking me as odd or weird to make me want to lynch him.

Any words on UN's relationship to the Quilford/Elmo slot?

At this point in the game, scum really have no choice but to attack their attackers.

how is this now the only acceptable strategy for scum, whereas a few pages ago it was

Scum do NOT often take an immediately post-RVS case and run with it for pages. You might see this behavior in less than one of any twenty mafia games with competent, attentive people. Scum have a tendency to chime in on formed wagons riiiiight about NOW in the gamestate, or lurk behind their RVS vote until there's enough content to compile a case.

It looks to me that scum only do whatever is most convenient to give some feeble backing to your "suspicions".
What's your read on Chiaro, Nuwen?

Hey Nuwen, please respond.

Right now, I think we should be lynching Chiaro. Those who have him as number two should switch over to him. In case no one has noticed, he's entered lurkmode. I would also go for a Vi lynch. I'd settle for UN or Nuwen if one of those becomes cool.

I don't understand what you don't understand.

I said scum have a big tendency not to create D1 waves or start fresh wagons if there are already enough active wagons on town. If you play a hundred games of mafia, this is easy to see. Just because it's something that happens a lot and is KNOWN to happen doesn't mean it DOESN'T OCCUR ANYWAY.

I also said that

caught scum

really have no choice but to attack the people pressuring them on day 1, because there's no nightplay to supplement and confirm the alignments of their attackers. Scum ignoring a wagon on himself in order to push a mislynch elsewhere is easy to spot after the mislynch flips. Counter-casing and "OMGUS" are trope pattern because they DO happen very, very often.

[Nuwen]

Are simply scum:[/b]
Kanye,
Uberninja

I'll eat a dozen hats if these players are scum together. Pick

one

.

[Nuwen]

fwiw, Uberninja has done enough scummy things independent of the Quilford/Elmo slot to merit a D1 cut. Scum-defending-scum, scum-defending-town, whatever. I'll flip it today, no questions asked. Any bussers are welcome to start composing their cases and hop along merrily into nightgame.

Well what do you want me to say about that?

If you say I'm scum for (A, B, C) reasons, and then I say you're town because of (X, Y, Z) reasons, and then I get lynched and flip town, people will know that my reasons were legit. That means my reads live on even after I die.

Whereas if I sit here and try to disprove your case on me (which is not gonna happen btw), people lose the "shos is town" among the garbage that would be me attacking your clearly well-thought-out read on me, and you defending it.

So I'm killing two birds with one stone: I'm giving my read on you based on your analysis of me, and I'm saving everyone else a lot of time.

Basically, his read on Shos reversed when Shos produced a town read on UN. "I can use you and a lot of people in this game want me dead right now, so I'll keep my allies close."

~~~

The bit of Hebrew flavor seems VERY relevant to what and how people claim eventually. That's all I'm saying.

[Nuwen]

unvote, vote uberninja

[Nuwen]

Votes are spread too thin, which is why none of the wagons are pushing forward. I assume this means at least two of the big wagons are on scum. One week to deadline: Kill UN and Shos.

Charter, I really give no fucks. Stop being a useless sack of derp.

[Nuwen]

And by Shos I mean Elmo. The one with the face.

[Nuwen]

Day 1 votecount 10

(4) UberNinja :

shos, Nuwen, Yosarian2, Zar,

(2) kanyeknowsbest

: Vi, UberNinja,

(2) Nuwen :

charter, Elmo teh AzN,

(1) Elmo TeH AzN :

kanyeknowsbest,

(1) Parama :

Pirate Chemist ,

(1) Pirate Chemist :

Parama,

(1) shos :

Katsuki,

Not voting (1):

Furcolow,

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

There are really only 2 reasons a wagon spread ever looks like this, especially D1:

1. The most "viable" wagon is on scum (see: Uberninja). If he were town, we would expect much more shoving in his direction by scum THIS CLOSE TO DEADLINE. In less than a week, a no-lynch occurs if we do not reach a consensus. Scum aren't ready to bus because there are SO MANY other alternate wagons. We're seeing even more waters being tested now: wagons on Katsuki, wagons on Nuwen. I assume at least one of these is scum-initiated to see what bites.

2. Town players NOT on the major wagons are just plain dicking around. We can deal with the lesser scum reads tomorrow, after a round of nightplay. Votes are spread too thin and not enough town players are wagoning together.

If you're town and not voting for Uberninja, seriously reconsider why your vote is where it is.

If a no-lynch occurs today and it's revealed that you're town in the post-game, I will personally blacklist any off-voting fuck. Pulling the wagon lead in

five different directions

in a 13 player game is facepalm-worthy. That's about 40% of the game. When so many wagons are open and accessible, it gives scum the opportunity to maneuver a "compromise" lynch AWAY from their top-wagoned buddy.

Statistically, more of the above active wagons are on town than scum right now.

~~~

I will only lynch Uberninja or Elmo today.

The wagon on Yos is crapscum flailing about. While I can't read Yos himself this early in the game, I CAN read the cases made against him. UN, you can pretend to be town today by unvoting and bussing Elmo.

Vi, I expect better of you if you're town. If any of the above flip scum I really don't have a choice but to turn onto you next; your reads on UN are unexplained and short, non-committal style. You've avoided saying more than a few words like "gut" about his player slot.

[Nuwen]

To face these extraordinary circumstances, extraordinary measures have been taken. The police has installed a delation box outside of the security office, if a name is dropped in in sufficient number, the suspect will be arrested and taken to preventive custody.

And please speak up if you've done this - I submitted the name I translated, which I believe is correct. The wikipedia article for the name is all evil-looking and demonlike. I assume this is a jailkeep mechanic that triggers on the role name/faction/slot/whatever if enough people decode it.

Again, I'm holding on to the answer because I think it's a role or faction name. At best, the answer catches scum and at worst scum have to burn through safeclaims or make shit up off to avoid claiming this name.

[Nuwen]

To face these extraordinary circumstances, extraordinary measures have been taken. The police has installed a delation box outside of the security office, if a name is dropped in in sufficient number, the suspect will be arrested and taken to preventive custody.

And please speak up if you've done this - I submitted the name I translated, which I believe is correct. The wikipedia article for the name is all evil-looking and demonlike. I assume this is a jailkeep mechanic that triggers on the role name/faction/slot/whatever if enough people decode it.

Again, I'm holding on to the answer because I think it's a role or faction name. At best, the answer catches scum and at worst scum have to burn through safeclaims or make shit up off to avoid claiming this name.

can you reexplain this? I'm utterly confused. what DID you figure out from the hebrew sign?

The Hebrew note is a name, which I think corresponds to a role or faction. The flavor says that if enough people drop the name in the box, good things will probably happen.

[Nuwen]

No response.

[Nuwen]

1. The most "viable" wagon is on scum (see: Uberninja). If he were town, we would expect much more shoving in his direction by scum THIS CLOSE TO DEADLINE. In less than a week, a no-lynch occurs if we do not reach a consensus.

Scum aren't ready to bus because there are SO MANY other alternate wagons. We're seeing even more waters being tested now:

wagons on Katsuki, wagons on Nuwen. I assume at least one of these is scum-initiated to see what bites.

2. Town players NOT on the major wagons are just plain dicking around. We can deal with the lesser scum reads tomorrow, after a round of nightplay. Votes are spread too thin and not enough town players are wagoning together.

If you're town and not voting for Uberninja, seriously reconsider why your vote is where it is.

If a no-lynch occurs today and it's revealed that you're town in the post-game, I will personally blacklist any off-voting fuck. Pulling the wagon lead in

five different directions

in a 13 player game is facepalm-worthy. That's about 40% of the game.

When so many wagons are open and accessible, it gives scum the opportunity to maneuver a "compromise" lynch AWAY from their top-wagoned buddy.

Statistically, more of the above active wagons are on town than scum right now.

It's like I'm a frikken psychic or something.

I'll deal with the peanut gallery after I get my scum flip. It's going to take too long to sort out which ones are clueless and which ones are legitimately throwing a lifeline out to UN.

Yosarian is a terrible lynch. Show me a guilty and MAYBE I'll listen. He's more valuable to the town than ten of anything else in this game.

[Nuwen]

Hey, what do you know: deadline approaches and more votes from Uberninja fly. He even took the time to inject a bucket of buddy WIFOM into this game before dying. His posts do nothing but obfuscate hunting his buddies as he masks his relationship to them under a full matrix of "reads." Anyone is scum with everyone for any reason, is mostly what I get out of his post. His reads, especially on Vi, run contrary to the question "what are scum mostly likely/most simply doing?" The answer usually isn't the convoluted hypotheticals he uses to throw scum reads around.

UN is not even TRYING to appear town right now. He's just picking whatever alternate wagon crosses his fancy and trying to create distance between himself and the people who defended him.

Kiiiilllll itiiitititifjskjfsk

[Nuwen]

I'd rather wait and see if anything confirms my hunch.

[Nuwen]

+1 for deadline extension.

[Nuwen]

From what I understand, people are policy lynching Hiraki?

[Nuwen]

vote: yos

The hell is this vote.

Do you think Yos is scum claiming the nightkill shot as a vig, an Sk claiming vig? WHY would either of those things do that un-provoked, especially using YOSARIAN as the medium if the team wanted some incredibly suboptimal 1-1 trade on a town PR.

[Nuwen]

I really didn't get anything in the last hour or so. Nuwen - please do tell what you found out about Baal Peor?

Nothing at all, unless my suspicions vis a vis a jailkeep @ that rolename were correct and that accounts for the scum kill. On one hand... that was too easy. On the other hand, no one has claimed out a succesful block. Going to backburner that tangent for now. Doc shouldn't claim out his protect last night, but DO KNOW that the successful protect pretty much confirms that target as town and is invaluable. Baal Peor is the name I submitted.

We don't necessarily know that Shos' BP accounted for the lack of nightkill. Also backburnering until we have more information. I think the gambit there was ill-advised because it doesn't actually confirm anyone as scum. :s

I believe Yos' claim, especially with the extra tidbits in Shos' flavor. Shos has no reason to verify Yos' claim as scum: he could fake a guilty track, or just keep quiet and let Yos take the heat for the only successful kill last night.

My shit list is ready to be napalm'd: Vi, Katsuki, Hiraki, Zar, Charter, Furclow, kanye.

Flavor is VERY much part of this game and anyone who says otherwise is wrong, or trying to dismiss important information. The map has to be relevant, just don't know how yet.

[Nuwen]

I believe Yos' claim, especially with the extra tidbits in Shos' flavor. Shos has no reason to verify Yos' claim as scum: he could fake a guilty track, or just keep quiet and let Yos take the heat for the only successful kill last night.

I don't see shos verifying any claims anywhere.

Hiraki, not Shos. The one with the wagon on his face.

The flavor in Hiraki's vision claims can really only be understood in one way: Yos dropped a French medallion at the scene of Elmo's viggin', which fits with the flavor of Yos' nameclaim. Hiraki has NO incentive to reveal this information as scum. He could have stayed silent, said ANYTHING condemning about Yos.

Also, why the hell are you voting me here? It should be pretty obvious that I'm telling the truth, unless you really think that the scum killed elmo?

Explain to me how you could possibly think that "Yos is scum" is a plausible explanation here.

Furc, you still haven't answered this question between the time you hopped from Yos' wagon to mine. Do you think Yosarisan is scum-claiming-vig? If not,

in what scenario could he possibly be scum

?

[Nuwen]

The level of derptastic in the last two pages is giving me a brain aneurysm.

Is Yos okay? Caught up and saw the post re: a bad situation IRL. Don't abandon me to the insanity wolves. Hope things are better now.

[Nuwen]

"White isn't a color" reads like a spergtastic reaction, in the same vein as people who go out of their way to argue to argue that simple addition arithmetic are not absolute values because other base number systems exist.

The French flag IS called Le Tricolor. Like, that's the historic and colloquial name for it in the same way that the American Flag is called Old Glory. Hiraki himself doesn't seem to be making the connection here, which reads all the more like clueless town. The paraphrase of his visions pretty much verifies that Yos (Françoise Dupont,

French

police investigator) was at the scene of the crime. This lines up with Yos' claim to have shot Elmo. Hiraki, as scum, has no reason to add credibility to Yos' vig claim if he's scum. He would be interested in laying dis-credibility to the claim or outright ignoring it while the town speculates on whether Yos is claiming his shot at an SK etc.

The fact that Yos came forward and claimed his shot speaks of a town motivation to me.

Behind all the fucking red herrings in this game, THERE'S STILL A POTENTIAL GUILTY OUT THERE.

IF YOU ARE A ROLEBLOCKER, YOU PROBABLY HIT THE SCUM KILL AND SHOULD ACT ACCORDINGLY

.

[Nuwen]

ITT:

Nuwen insists that this is a flavor- and power-role game.
Nuwen completely misses that the visions say considerably more than "Yos2's role is French" and shamelessly buddies to him. (which, if I notice buddying at all, it has to be pretty shameless)
Zar pulls out completely unnecessary vote count analysis to simultaneously throw Nuwen's name out as a suspect and then conveniently ignore her in the analysis.

Yes, flavor is very much relevant to this game. There's A LOT of it and scattered amidst the fluff I believe there's important information to be gleaned. Ignoring this to suit your own agenda is either intellectually lazy or scummy. Haven't decided which yet. This game isn't interesting enough to compete with team mafia.

I'm not shamelessly buddying Yos - there's a dude voting for him AFTER THE COMPLEMENTING CLAIMS, which I also find either incredibly misguided or scummy. Running defense for Furclow wins you no points with me.

Vote count analysis isn't magic numerology. I do it when I think wagons contain important data or lack a better starting point. The casing on Hiraki after his town-motivated claim is more than enough of a jump-off for today.

Also reasonably sure that you have to have inside info to EVER read Uberninja's D1 as town in this game. No regrets at all on that one.

[Nuwen]

One post/day is considered lurking, now?

Uberninja's wagon is less valuable BECAUSE he was so inherently scummy with every action and every word. I don't care that you claim to have a magical town read on him early and consistently; imo a town read on Uberninja in response to his D1 play is either inside information. Or maybe you're just better at mafia than everyone else in this game, Vi. All hail!~~

But sarcasm aside, a wagon that could have been entirely town-driven is less valuable for rote vote analysis. In fact, it's rote vote analysis that can make the behavior of "town-purging-town," something to be encouraged D1 imo, a lynch-able offense in ensuing days. Take it from someone who knows and uses VCA to squeeze on fresh information on a game: there's not much to see on Uberninja's wagon. I'm not going to invent a case I don't agree with because it fits your small paradigm of scum-must-be-asserting-wagon.

These cases are essentially questioning my reads ("too many potential scum," "

buddying

her limited town reads), calling one post/day lurking, and concluding that my open invitation to the Uberninja pool is something most likely done by scum.

~~~

I'm not saying that Hiraki's claim makes him mod-confirmed town, but I do see a much stronger town incentive than scum incentive behind claiming what and how he did. Double-plus so after Yos had a VOTE (Furclow) on him and a scum Hiraki could have done the exact opposite: kept his mouth quiet and waiting to see if a wagon formed. The assorted people voting for Hiraki haven't actually commented on this piece, but have instead resorted to calling me scum with Hiraki?

But evidently that's how mafia is played now so w/e.

[Nuwen]

prodded. birthday shenanigans and I'm working 7-7 today.

Wagon on me seems to be primarily comprised of people calling me scum with Hiraki, Vi excepted, who suddenly want to lynch me over Hiraki. Can't tell if it's scum shifting with the vibe of wagon tide. It certainly isn't good scumhunting.

Furclow continues to toss his vote to the left to the left to the right, Katsuki is perma afk, and the premise of Zar's wagon cross-reference seems off to me. I understand that he's working on the assumption that scum wagon town (and are sometimes rapid supporters of mislynches), but you have to think about the circumstance of the wagoned players to really be able to use VCA in a worthwhile way.

Consider: Elmo was scummy enough to be shot by a prob-vig who was also on the Uberninja wagon. If you take it for granted that Yos is town, how many other town people could have shared his opinion that BOTH were likely to be scum? When a town player behaves in a decidedly anti-town manner, it's not always necessary for scum to join the wagon at all. Zar's vote agrees that Uberninja was anti-town; from a townZar perspective it shouldn't seem that unlikely that other town thought Uberninja was scum too.

Not much else to say. I'd LIKE to pick apart the flavor of this game, but I get the feeling that no one would be particularly interested. Evidently being invested in flavor clues is a scum tell, despite the mod clearly stating that flavor plays a bigger-than-normal role in this game. zzz

[Nuwen]

No one has really explained why scumHiraki would provide additional verification/credence to Yos' claim when Yos was the ONLY shot last night, other than "he's doing a suboptimal scum thing to appear town." He could have followed onto the budding Yos wagon as scum. Most important of all,

he could have said nothing

.

Comes as no surprise that two people calling Hiraki scum (Shos, Charter) are content to call me the buddy of Hiraki and try to lynch me first. This isn't scumhunting, this is forcing a connection a picking whichever side is wagon-able to vote. Of the two, I think Charter is more likely to to be scum. Charter also maintained a town read on Uberninja, which in this game tends to feel like defending-town-for-points-later type of stuff. He didn't try particularly hard to dismantle Uberninja's wagon in a way consistent with town defending a town read.

[Nuwen]

I'm Astrid, a school girl/fieldtripper.

This game isn't fun

[Nuwen]

One more time, so everyone can hear it Parama: Yos is scum claiming vig. You think Yos is scum claiming vig. You, Parama, think Yosarian2 claimed out the scum kill as a vig bullet for no reason or hint of a track/whatever result on him.

[Nuwen]

That's the good stuff.

vote Furclow

L-1. Claim.

[Nuwen]

unvote;
vote: Zar

let's do me vs. you today, bub

Yeah okay.

Not a town rolecop. Outing the tracker also tells us the scum team lacks daytalk. Put this clown to rest and protect/watch Zar tonight.

[Nuwen]

I'd string up Vi today. I don't think it's a town reaction to the 2nd kill; it reads like scum figuring out they have a serial killer to contend with. 1-2 both of them and this game is done. Don't care which first.

[Nuwen]

A better question, I guess: Zar, results clearing anyone please?

[Nuwen]

anyway, I've been thinking, and since Parama's nameclaim seemed correct and we definitely could rule him out with the plot - I'm gonna insist that Nuwen will nameclaim already.

I'm Astrid, a school girl/fieldtripper.

[Nuwen]

Looks a little like sanskrit. Will probably spend some time trying to translate it tonight, but I have an approaching deadline in another game to think about right now. Forcthing spent a lot of time feeling out wagons to compete with Hiraki's, but I need to reread to figure out if this was defending a buddy

[Nuwen]

Bael'Peor was some of the first flavor introduced to the game, found in the D1 opening scene. It was a name written in Hebrew on a slip of paper at the murder scene. Spring's flavor indicated that if "enough" people submitted the name, he would be "apprehended" during the night. I thought this might be a jailkeep @ that rolename if it exists, which does explain the single kill N1. Originally I thought Bael'Peor/Belphagor (different Anglicization) might be a role name of scum (there's a French movie about Bael'Peor being the phantom in the Louvre). "Martin" is a character in this movie at well. Probably some of the inspiration behind the flavor of this game but not relevant, because we already know both Bael'Peor and Martin are associated with death scenes.

In the film, a French chick opens a coffin containing a mummy but ends up possessed by the spirit of Bael'Peor, which was hiding in the coffin (sup Vi). "Martin" is the name of her love interest.

~~~

Zar's track absolves Charter of last night's kill, I think. Have you always gotten results in that format, or is Charter's locale tracking a new thing? Do you have any information from N1?

I like the Vi wagon a lot here. Zar's list-off containing "The Louvre's Mummy" reminded me that I had read that title when researching Bael'Peor. I mean, it's weak and it's entirely flavorful but it

fits

with apparent source material, AND it fits with my kneejerk reaction that Vi's day opener was a scum realization that an SK is in the game.

Here's how we figure that part out: Yos, you lynching Vi today? You've spent a lot of time making it clear that your town read on me isn't iron-clad, while also prodding Vi as scum. The only thing you've made clear is that you don't think we can be scum TOGETHER, which is about as Captain Obvious as it gets. We know you're not part of any scum faction; the only question here is whether you're an SK or true vig.

vote Vi

[Nuwen]

Charmer isn't a role I've seen before, but /search shows it to have been used as the name for:

1. x-shot lovermaker, a bastard-ish role that creates a midgame or temporary lover bond with target player slot. A possibility if Furcthing hadn't made someone a lover yet.
2. x-shot-on-hit pacifier, makes target immune to actions x number of times. Makes sense in a game with a killing third party.

I doubt there are 3 scum + SK in this game. 3-1-9 is incredibly difficult to balance - first of all, the SK has WAY too many scum potential shots to contend with and likewise the town powers can just swing the game way too hard. I'd bank on 2-1-10 with a lot of remaining town powers being mostly flavorful or near-vanilla, a'la Shos. Flipped town powers include: a lucid dreamer, a forensic investigator (SCREAMS third party), a scientist (whatever that is), and a night guard (bodyguard, prob). I'm inclined to believe Parama took a bullet for someone last night (Zar, prob). Still doesn't answer where the Kanye kill originated from.

If someone has results on Yos last night, this is the time to claim them out. If someone has a successful protect/block from N1, now is also the time to claim it out.

[Nuwen]

Eh, I'm more willing to lynch through Hiraki today. Furthing did A LOT to press almost every wagon alternate to Hiraki's and even tried to pry votes off his wagon. I tend to believe that scum do the simplest thing, usually: in that situation there's really no reason to pluck out and defend a wagon on town alternate to your own. As the wagon on Furthing grew quickly, I would have expected him to advocate Hiraki over himself if Hiraki were town. Probably not willing to stake the game on this kind of assumption because a worst case 3-1-9 situation puts us close to endgame atm.

I really don't want to have to reread this game.

[Duplicate post deleted] - spring

[Nuwen]

fwiw, wagon patterns change dramatically between 2 and 3 man scum teams, especially on the subject of bussing. You might see things like a white flag gambit between 2 scum when neither or only one of their wagons are viable, just to throw off rote VCA. I'm strongly leaning towards 2-1-9 setup based on the kill targets we've seen.

Hiraki's unvote on the Furthing wagon can be read as either alignment, imo. It could be read as non-committal to a bus, but that makes his unvote pretty stupid play because it wasn't accompanied by any alternate case. If he was attempting to create distance between himself and Furthing while not contributing to Furthing's lynch, he didn't do it in the way I would expect from scum. Then again, a daytalkless kneejerk reaction to a growing wagon on one buddy in a two-man group might be to unvote. I can also see an unvote coming from town not wanting to proceed without fully processing all claims.

Reasons for Hiraki being scum come from Furthing's non-interaction with Hiraki in general, avoidance of the Hiraki wagon, and his attempts to pry votes off Hiraki. I honestly don't see scum doing this on a mislynch. Even if they're trying to gain an ally by defending a town player, Furthing should have gone into survival mode and gone balls to the walls on Hiraki's alternate wagon if he were town.

[Nuwen]

Your guess is as good as mine. I have a little flavor that suggests I was drawn here against my will and better judgement, and my separation from friends isn't accidental. Reminds me a little of the chick possessed by the spirit of Belphegor in the film, but I think flavor inspiration and not plot/balance is drawn from that source. The rest of my role is pretty worthless; like I said, I think remaining power roles are anti-scum things on a third party and a couple near-vanillas with flavor dodads among the town. And a tracker.

Have both likes and dislikes about the flavorcop claim. At the very least it's verifiable and not something to be dealt with today.

[Nuwen]

I'm pretty passive when I don't have a scum read worth pursuing. It's one of the reasons I'm not as strong a player as I could be. I depend on other people to generate the content I work with, rather than blindly poking around for leads. I guess flavor is part of it too. I've spent a LOT of time researching bits and pieces of flavor in this game. Definitely more time than I've spent with the game itself.

I'd like to hear a full claim before a hammer falls. I see a lot of split motivation from Hiraki that could come from a town perspective, and my scum read on him comes from the Furcolow -> Hiraki direction.

[Nuwen]

I don't buy it and that seals it for me. Real doc don't counterclaim, not enough time in twilight.

As town, Hiraki could have stepped in anytime during my froth on Vi and said "Nuwen, this guy was prob the non-Yos i.e. scum shot N1." He just let it happen. Doc is a very, very lazy scum claim and you should feel ashamed.

[Nuwen]

PRs, report in. Please tell me we can just gg it from here.

[Nuwen]

Would imply mafia shot a BP (Shos, SK, not mutually exclusive at this point) while the SK no-killed or shot another BP. I'm going to assume town has no more preventative powers left with the RB and doc dead. Considering massclaim.

Rolecop needs to tell us if anyone lied or has an unreported ability.

[Nuwen]

Not rolecop, flavorcop. Charter.

[Nuwen]

check out that massive question dodge between 1808 and 1809.

Hi.

Nuwen, supposing PRs don't have ny valuable info, what do youthink?

Would imply mafia shot a BP (Shos, SK, not mutually exclusive at this point) while the SK no-killed or shot another BP. I'm going to assume town has no more preventative powers left with the RB and doc dead. Considering massclaim.
.

If you had actually read what I'd posted, you'd be squirming to explain-away why a doc-protected slot on a night with no scum kill (N1 - Yos claimed out Elmo's death) remains alive today. Did a magical doc spring up or are you going to tell me that someone no-killed/avoided shooting a protect-confirmed slot this close to endgame to play WIFOM games.

Vi either has an SK-ish vest or controls the scum kill. I want it dead NOW.

Vote: Vi

[Nuwen]

And I want Zar to check in and please tell me where Shos went last night. You DID track the claimed vest in a game with a likely third party, right.

[Nuwen]

Vi N1

you N2

Hiraki protected Vi on a night there was at least one missing kill (two if you think Yos is a town vig, in addition to there being a third party+scum). When Hiraki flipped town, I realized that a couple things could be happening that might require a full/fresh reread.

The thought process:

1. Vi was a scum kill N1 (protected), Yos did some EXTREME gambiting as SK - claiming out a shot on vig fodder, shooting after claiming vanilla-ized.

• This was actually my first working assumption, which is why I'm
  very, very
  surprised to see Vi currently alive, along with everything else. Scum wanted him dead N1 - if he were that problematic, why would he be left alive as protect-conf-notscum? Mafia in this situation would either have to call him the target of the SK kill (which just implies knowledge of night shots, can't be used as an angle) to get him lynched or...? There's no good answer to this question.
  
  He shouldn't be alive unless he controls the mafia shot or there's more going on at night than what's been claimed.

But for completionism, I did move to

1a. Vi was an SK kill N1 (protected), Yos is telling the truth, scum kill was ??? and ??? happened to it. Shos' vest claim could fill in the ???

• The SK thinks Vi is scum too! Help me fucking lynch him and maybe we'll play games tomorrow.
  
  This pretty much implies Shos as the BP SK, and he would have had to absorb the mafia shot.
  This is where I believe the Martin flavor is important and worth reading from as many non-Shos sources as possible
  .

Following me yet?

The first situation makes it highly, highly unlikely that Vi would still be alive as town (in fact, there's a LOT that shouldn't be alive right now). I think the only explanation for this is a cross-kill onto an SK's BP (Vi -> Shos? Maybe Vi -> Yos, but I'm beginning to think he's been telling the truth), and then a no-kill or something failed on the third party's shot. Do you see what I mean?

There just aren't many complete explanations based on what powers have claimed out, unless Magua has some VERY VERY novel information to add to this mix.

I want Vi to claim next, followed by Magua.

[Nuwen]

Vi, that's not a full claim. You've never indicated the

name-function

of your role. "Mummy of the Louvre" isn't an ability. You claim to target floors, but I see no indication that you knew about a map of the Louvre prior to one being introduced to the thread publicly. If this is information you had D1 when you opened your role PM, wouldn't you have wanted to reference some verifiable crumb about possessing information the town did not have until D2.

In short, I think Vi is lying and reverse-engineering his claim to correlate with things we already know. The post restriction is probably thrown in for kicks and shits. Vi, what happens if you BREAK YOUR POST RESTRICTION HRM.


~~~

I'd bank on 2-1-10 with

a lot of remaining town powers being mostly flavorful or near-vanilla

, a'la Shos.

I'm Astrid Sorel,

curious child

. My flavor indicates that I was on day-outing with

two school friends

and

an older classmate of my hoity-toity parochial school

until I turned a corner and a brilliant light seared my vision to a crisp. Instead of fear or doubt, I felt only an innocent child's burning curiosity lighting the shadows in my path. I can ask

five questions

via PM at any time during a day/night phase.

I've used my ability: N1, D2, N3.

List of questions asked so far (answers paraphrased, I can't copy/paste Spring's PM). I tried to use as many conjunctions this/thats as possible. The first set is mostly figuring out if my questions are answered/received by another player; as far as I can tell, they're not.

Night 1

• 1. Who is answering my questions or to whom are my questions addressed? ("You are!")
  2. Are my friends and classmate roles this game, who are they? ("Everyone has a role to play")
  3. Am I an innocent child and if so, when do I get mod confirmation? ("You are innocent and a child")
  4. Who is Belphegor? ("The Phantom of the Louvre")
  5. Is my blindness an ability or a passive modifier? ("True sight requires the eyes of a child")

In response to people wanting me to claim out the Belphegor text D1; I knew I would be using my questions N1 after seeing a flip:

I'd rather wait and see if anything confirms my hunch.

Day 2

• 1. Are any of my messages a result of interaction with Shos? ("No")
  2. Who targeted me last night? (a Hebrew note formatted exactly like the one in opening flavor, reads "Mene Mene Tekel u-Pharsin" from the book of Daniel)
  This is the only result I actually think is game-relevant,

  maybe
  .
  3. Is there a task or trigger to becoming an innocent child? ("The power to question is something few men have")
  4. How many missing kills are there, if any? ("Enough.")
  5. Did Shos absorb any kills? ("Shos is alive and well.")

Day 3

• 1. Who killed Kanye? ("
  Shadows soon consume us all
  ")
  2. Is Parama a bodyguard and if so, did he intercept a kill? ("Altruism is admirable.")
  3. Did Yos target anything; who? ("A vendetta is a terrible thing to waste")
  4. What is Yosarian's role name? ("You've already been introduced" + link to this post") -
  I don't know if this means Yos is telling the truth. As you can see, no answer has been straight to the point or THAT informative. This could just be more circular fuckery
  
  5. Has any shot originated from Vi? ("Take your time.")
  
  

I wanted to massclaim

before

revealing that I could potentially ask about people's roles, sort of. At the very least, I wanted Magua's claim out in the open. One of my questions today/tonight is going to be asking about Vi's post restriction or his night wanderings. I don't really expect anything useful at this point tbh. Like I said, this role appears to be deceptively interesting but ultimately near-vanilla.

So when I say I've been BOGGED DOWN BY PARAGRAPHS OF FLAVOR, maybe you understand me now.

[Nuwen]

That should read:
I've used my ability: N1, D2,

D3

, not N3.

[Nuwen]

Magua, you should be claiming in your next post.

[Nuwen]

Shos, claim in full.

[Nuwen]

Now. You shouldn't have to verify or check the game over if you're telling the truth.

[Nuwen]

Claim out your results in full so far, Charter. Start with N1.

[Nuwen]

I have a lot to think about here, and a LOT of questions following these claims.

For now, I received permission from Spring to post the note slid into my hand D2. Because it's on the same background/font as the N0 flavor kill, I think it suggests that I was targeted by the same faction N1. We know Furthing targeted Zar N1 because of the results he claimed (the only hypothetical this doesn't fit is Furthing/Zar scum team, but what the fuck @ that), so I'm thinking that a remaining ability hit me N1. I'm still alive and don't have a vest and evidently wasn't protected, so it wasn't a shot.

.

I'm a protective role whose specific details I don't want to get into; I do know that I'm *not* responsible for the lack of deaths last Night.

Explain this to me. You protected Zar, the tracker - how do you know that you're not responsible for blocking a shot on his face?

You can't be a jailkeeper, because Charter has claimed results from N2 (and you're not calling Zar a liar for claiming results today).

[Nuwen]

Missed the top part of that post.

I want you to claim in full. There's a specific set of potential circumstances that makes today lylo for town, and it's increasingly likely that we're in that specific set of circumstances.

~~~

Zar -> Furthing N1, result indicating action failed
Zar -> Charter N2, Charter moves from Denon1st to Sully-ground.
Zar -> Shos N3, blinded by light/action immunity

Charter -> Furthing N1
Charter -> Vi N1, Mummy
Charter -> Yosarian N3

Zar's action on Furthing failed N1. Charter claimed to have had a result on Furthing prior to contributing to Furthing's lynch, but only claimed out in full D3 in response to the track from Zar. Furthing was a

charmer

, which could be action immunity or something else altogether.

Vi -> N1 2nd floor, scenic tour/no result
Vi -> N2 1st floor, attacked and sent back to Sarcophagus (ground floor according to map); simultaneous with Charter targeting Vi and moving Denon1st -> ground
Vi -> N3 Ground floor, canopic jars broken and suspected shot target

Hiraki -> Vi N1
Hiraki -> Zar N2

Katsuki/Magua -> no target N1
Magua -> N2 Charter,

never indicated whether successful "effect" occurred

Magua -> N3 Zar,

no successful "effect."

N1: Minimum of

one

missing kill, potentially two if Yos is not the SK
N2: No kill missing?
N3: Minimum of

one

missing kill, again potentially

two

I'm going to take a leaf out of Hito's book and play raise-your-hand-if-you-see-it. Raise your hand if you see it.

unvote

[Nuwen]

If by "it" you mean I never say whether I saved chamber or not, I will apologetically note that it seemed so obvious with the two kills that I had not successfully protected that it did not bear mentioning.

Nope.

[Nuwen]

Most likely scenario is that the visions are

just a mechanic of the game, and that the visions are sent by the mod directly to a random player.

Yeah,

shos's role is looking pretty SK-ish

here.

I'm not sure how you can think these two things simultaneously when the visions have clearly said,

eh, apparently someone is sending out visions or something is triggering them.

I'm paraphrasing everything, I've had to resort to synonyms.

The accompanying message says something along the lines of me wandering about while thinking about the weird stuff that has being going on. I end up getting into a place that resembles a study, and it looks like I like the room decoration.

I sit down at a desk and while I'm minding my own business playing with whatever is in the desk surface, I get three visions:

- some sort of powerfully energetic entity/creature that can meddle with fate.

- An ancient voice emerging from the origins, resonant/low pitched and taking its time, entering consciences.
- a bright light that can't be avoided, showing

no sign of wickedness or righteousness.

And then it's all over and I'm wondering WTH was that about.

I receieved yet another vision. This time, a repeat of yesterday's message.

I go into the same room I went yesterday and I like the ambience, but there seems to be a fine layer of dust covering the furniture. My thoughts wantder as I sit in the chair next to the big desk and the same three visions arise.

A blinding light that

can't be stopped changing fate.

An ancient voice

lacking vice or virtue

An entity with unquantifiable energy, deep and slow that can enter minds

And the visions end suddenly.

If the visions come directly from a mod and NOT player, they're very strongly suggesting that Shos' role is true neutral and a survivor. "Meddle with fate" "can't be stopped changing Fate" refers to the strong swing a survivor has when he reaches a lylo-esque situation - he can choose to lend an extra quickhammer to scum if it looks like town is going to lose, or jump on dwindling scum if the game is swinging town-wise.

Shos has said that he'd like to win with the town, but we can't trust him on that one. Given the opportunity to hammer quick scum in lylo, I think he'll take the quick win. Anyone would.

We also can't lynch Shos - scum have to contend with his vest and NEED to lynch him if the game is swinging out of their favor, because he then becomes a liability.

We all know the way to deal with a survivor as town is to just lynch scum & win, because this encourages the survivor to lend momentum to the already-winning side instead of championing for a losing cause.

Contrarywise, if you think Shos is an SK, you pretty much HAVE to think these messages originate from Shos and NOT the mod because he would need to be crumbing a survivor role. You can't hold both ideas that the mod is writing/sourcing visions and Shos is an SK.

[Nuwen]

After going through claims, I'm very sure that:

Charter -> Yos is the path to victory here. Uh, sorry Vi. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing sometimes.

Still playing "raise your hand if you see it," and it has to do with my vote here.

vote: Charter

[Nuwen]

quickhammer *with scum in lylo in post #1917

[Nuwen]

Charter? Ok, why Charter?

I'd like to see who, if anyone, sees it too. If Sunday-ish rolls around and no one has made the same connection, I'll probably share with the class.

In the meantime, more loose ends:

Zar, dreamers on mafiascum tend to be some variant of a

lucid dreamer

. They can invent their action every night and send it in. The role is incredibly powerful and beyond-swingy because its effects can't be anticipated while the setup is being designed. Sometimes limitations are put on the number or relative strength of the actions (1-shot ability creation for entire game, create a "basic" ability from a JOAT-style list, any ability but has a chance to fail). The limitations and variants are determined by how the role would interact with the rest of the game.

I'm also catching more and more things in Yos' ISO as I skim it.

I am also starting to have doubts about the existence of a SK; there are just too many missing kills, especially with the doc dead. Perhaps the mafia just had an extra one-shot kill or something?

If you're

actually

doubting the origin of a 2nd shot and not just

sowing doubt

, you're smart enough to have thought about the forensic investigator. Explain the function of a forensics role in a game with one faction with an extra shot - are you telling me that an entire role exists to seek+clarify the extra shot? I don't think so. There's an SK+mafia or multiball (oh god...) in this mini.

[Nuwen]

I know it's infuriating, and I apologize, but it's a necessary step before I reveal my theory.

One final piece, which Spring won't clarify via PM. She said I'd either have to use my question ability or ask in-thread, so

What is a night guard? Synonymous with body guard?

[Nuwen]

Yeah, I didn't get the information or reaction I thought I would get. Doesn't really change anything. Probably would have written Vi off as for-sure town if he had figured this out and come forward.

I'll try to make this post follow my train of thought as I rode it.

~~~

I reread Furcolow and two major things stood out:

1.

I'm a Detective.

Zar is a Tracker. Don't hammer.

Yes, Furcolow seemed like an idiot but holy shit is this just plain claiming scum. Have to ask

why

these words were chosen here:

• No daytalk - this was my original assumption. Furcthing is communicating N1 information to his buddy. If we close the book there,
  we never wonder who Furc could be communicating with OUTSIDE of his scumteam.
  
  
  
• "Zar is a tracker. Don't hammer." - this sounds very much like a barter-plea for life, posed to either a third party or (
  more likely
  ) a second scum team. Maybe this was also a test for
  Zar's
  alignment. Furc and his buddy could have decided to out the tracker on the way down - if Zar took shots from a second scum team/SK, then Furc's team would absolutely know Zar is town.
  
  A corollary: Zar living would imply he's aligned with bullet-shooters, especially after protective roles are dead. (There is one claimed protective role alive: Magua -> Charter N2, 2 kills; Magua -> Zar N3, 0 kills)
  
  Basically I'm reading this as either "I know Zar is
  your tracker
  . Don't hammer."
  OR
  "Zar is a town tracker. Don't hammer and we can work together today." Either way, this line was NOT addressed to town players and I don't think it's clumsy enough to be in-thread communication with his buddy.
  
  
• Multiball
  - they must know about each other by now. The non-Furcolow team would definitely know. The Furc-team would probably suspect an SK for awhile, unless both teams were informed of a multiball in role PMs or by flavor we've glossed over.

2.

I'm a Detective.

Zar is a Tracker.

Don't hammer.

Day 2 ends.

Furcolow,

The Portrait of Madame Récamier

by Jacques Louis David, was destroyed by the authorities. He was a mafia charmer.

Night 2 starts now.

The deadline is set to Sunday June the 3rd.

(expired on 2012-06-03 12:00:00)[/align]

• A
  mafia charmer
  doesn't exactly sound like a rolecop. In fact, I've seen "chamer" used most often as a role-pacifying or role-blocking kind of role. This would be baseless speculation if...
  
  
  

  I followed Furcolow in N1, but the result said my action failed.
  
  I asked the mod what the result would be in case a player did not move during the night, she responded that in such case I would be told my target did not go anywhere.

  
  
  We've already figured out that Zar can't be the same alignment as Furcolow - he's either trying to out a scum tracker from a second team OR outing a town tracker. I trust Zar's result here. Zar targeted a "charmer" and got no result, which sounds a lot like a role pacify or action-immunity to me.
  
  
• So where did Furcolow get his information from?
  - his buddy, the real rolecop, of course (fits with: scum
  do
  have daytalk, and Furthing's claim wasn't meant to save him but doom/figure out Zar). Furcolow dying with a rolecop claim on his lips sure makes a "flavorcop" look pretty town. Let's go check out that Flavorcop's results...
  
  
  

  I'm a flavorcop. I get some cryptic clues about someone's name flavor. It's why I was in favor of the massnameclaim yesterday, so I would have everyone's name to verify against.

  Night one I investigated Furc

  , last night I investigated Vi. Vi is a mummy like she claimed. As far as I can tell, my role is totally useless.

  
  
  This result/full claim comes the day after Charter's incredibly weak hammer, in response to Zar asking Charter what he was doing wandering about N2.
  
  

  If I forget to post day two, just count on a vote for Nuwen/Hiraki.

  
  

  Unvote, vote Furc

  
  
  So let's think about this. Zar's result
  could have
  been disrupted by a single-target block or other action, but I think it's a lot more likely that Furthing is just plain immune to actions (maybe x-shot, we'll never know until endgame). We see another action-immune role in the game (Shos) and action-immunity is actually a really, really smart way to neuter the swinginess of over-saturated town powers, including the random-ish lucid dreamer.
  
  If that's true...
  
  
• Charter claimed a result on an action-immune target, and his target happened to have claimed a more scum-oriented version of Charter's own role (a flavorcop might be rown... but a rolecop definitely isn't). If Charter and Furc were buddies, they probably decided this was a pretty safe way to distance and solidify Charter's role as town-aligned.
  
  
• I think Charter is lying about targeting Furcolow
  , and that they're scum together. I also believe Charter is a
  full rolecop
  , not just a flavorcop, and is claiming only flavor as a pacifying gambit. He initiated the
  name claim
  to collect information and catch any liars, which
  furthers my suspicions that we're in a multiball and both teams are aware of each other
  . Hence why hunt-dat-SK has been so popular (and Yos is flat-out burying the existence of a 2nd shot, period).

The only question left is what the hell happened N2. Zar followed Charter from 1st floor Denon -> ground floor Sully. Zar even specified information about windows to a courtyard, which means Charter definitely can't be underground. Both bodies were found in the basement, which presumably means the lower ground floor.

But there were 2 kills. Charter should be cleared by virtue of this alone, right?

Ma! Mama! Tôi thấy anh ta... Mamamamamama! Trong bảo tàng mamama!Ma

This is Vietnamese. It roughly means "mommy, mommy I saw a ghost" according to Google translator. I can't even begin to splice apart the Demotic script. At this point I'm looking for

any

information that might mean Charter was able to submit a kill through untraceable means. I thought

maybe

he originally targeted someone on the ground Sully floor, but the shot was bodyguarded by Parama. I don't think it's safe to assume Parama's role functioned as a bodyguard, however, and even if it did that doesn't explain why his corse is in the basement and not in the place of whomever he targeted.

There's also the possibility of a 3 man scum team+SK. I don't think is as absurd as Yos says it is, especially with the duplicate town protective roles.

Someone call me crazy.

~~~

Yes, I have my questions. No, you don't get to control them but the suggestion box remains open.

[Nuwen]

2 Scumteams + Neutral Party + Town seems way too many teams for a 13 player game, IMO.

Not if that neutral party is a bulletproof survivor. That's actually a REALLY elegant balancing mechanic for a multiball game in a mini. 2-2-1-8 prevents the survivor from becoming a kingmaker in EVERY possible endgame scenario.

The picture claim from Charter is obviously a fake. Spring has poured a lot of care into designing this game - flavor, roles, clues. I don't think she would modslip and give someone a town PM with a mismatched image name. I think this is more likely a mistake from fakeclaiming scum. I

do

believe scum are given fakeclaims because all the flavor associated with kills points to a thing/role that no one has claimed (Babylonian artifact is Zar's guess on that role, for example).

Watching Dreamhack all day, will be in/out.

[Nuwen]

It feels like you're reading WAY too much into this.

Assume he's a scum rolecop who is about to get lynched. His goals are 1: to come up with some kind of claim that might prevent his lynch; 2: to confirm that claim to make it stronger; and 3: to tell his buddies about his result.

When a person is in trouble, it's incredibly common for them to claim part of their own role, especially if they can confirm it. As Jeep once said, on some level everyone really wants to tell you what their role is.

How, exactly, does a rolecop save himself by claiming his exact role and outing another power? Rolecop is a scum claim. I know it, you know it, the American people know it. Zar wasn't even voting for Furthing at the point when he claimed; if Furc were scum desperately trying to avoid being lynched with a claim, he outed the role of someone who

wasn't voting for him yet

. I would throw a hammer on principle in that situation and expect most players would do the same.

No, I don't think that claim was meant to save Furthing - he barely resisted his own lynch after claiming out. I think the claim was intended to save his buddy and make the game easier for Charter by directing the other shooter(s) @ Zar.

Or, perhaps you're right and he was the scum roleblocker and his buddy was the scum rolecop. It still makes sense to claim rolecop if he can confirm that role using his buddy's information.

Right, that's what I'm saying - Furthing's buddy is the rolecop. Do you see any claims that might belong to a fakeclaiming rolecop? I do! Charter's only contributions to this game are "confirming" other players by verifying their flavor information. He's coasting, as expected.

~~~

I don't think there is BOTH AN SK

AND

TWO SCUM TEAMS, OR AN SK

AND

A SURVIVOR.

I THINK THE SURVIVOR CLAIM FEELS PRETTY LEGIT, ALTHOUGH THE THING ABOUT FAKECLAIM PICTURES IS GIVING ME A LOT OF PAUSE.

The possibilities I see are:
multiball 2-2-1-8 (survivor)
SK 3-1-9 (Shos = SK)
2-1-10 (Shos = SK)

I think Shos is what he says he is until I see a good reason to believe otherwise. The fakeclaim picture PM thing gives me pause, but not enough to remove my vote from abso-scum.

~~~

It's just a strange coincidence that Zar targeted the CHARMER and got no result N1 while the "flavorcop" supposedly did. If you're assuming SK/scum or just a single scum team, please tell me why that scum team would opt to rolecop AND singe-target block Zar on the same night instead of RBing elsewhere to catch as many powers as possible. This is the only way to explain TownZar's no-result; no town have claimed to have a roleblock. We know Magua isn't a jailkeeper and his slot didn't target N1 to boot. Hence, Charter probably didn't target Furthing and is probably claiming a result to create distance between himself and that role slot.

And now it lurks. Hammer of righteousness plz.

[Nuwen]

I mean, just looking at the wording in Nuwen's role and how her two friends were destroyed by a weird energy, it really makes me think that Shos is the SK.

I've never

ever

said this in-thread. The closest thing I've mentioned is:

I have a little flavor that suggests I was drawn here against my will and better judgement, and my separation from friends isn't accidental.

My flavor reads that a very bright light enters my peripheral field of vision while the friends are admiring a blue-stone statue of a tall women in a shroud. I'm pulled a few steps towards the light, partially hidden behind a corner. Almost instantaneously the light explodes across my vision and consumes my sight from right eye to left, with the last milisecond of sight being my friend's frozen faces. The white in my vision is brilliant, then dulls slowly to reds, oranges, and finally goes dark.

How

about

that

flavorcop.

But just because the rock is "lacking vice or virtue", it doesn't mean it, you know, doesn't want to kill all of us. That phrase might just mean "neither town nor mafia".

I laughed. A lot. If only you weren't scum.

This fits a little more, maybe: Yos-Charter-Furcolow, with Yosarian submitting the kill on the night Charter was tracked. Maybe Shos is an SK, but he's definitely bulletproof and he's definitely on the main menu of the primary scum team right now. We can deal with that tomorrow. I want scum today.

Kill Charter dead you magnolia-souled cheese puffs.

There are a lot of questions raised for me. I'll figure out which ones are worth answering and which aren't tomorrow, I guess.

[Nuwen]

Vi, Magua, Zar votes back on scum now please: Charter, Yos. This isn't happening if any of you start crossvoting.

[Nuwen]

Saw it, don't particularly care or look forward to working with someone dumb enough not to full claim as the only remaining protective role in the game with kill-less nights. Something is probably shooting you tonight, no matter what you are, and we'll never know the full details. None of the factions with guns can afford more missing kills, so very few fucks no matter which/what you are. I stopped reading your posts somewhere around the time you stuck a vote on Vi while my scum continued to put coals under the survivor claim. You only get to threaten people when you're worth your role slot, otherwise it's not very scary.

I plan on using my questions at night, after a reveal on either Charter/Yos, while being very content that there are stronger powers equipped by weaker minds in this game.

Really only need a Shos-Vi-Zar-Nuwen bloc to take care of the above today. Magua can sit over there and rub his cards all over his chest until he wants to stop trying to lynch town.

[Nuwen]

Also, and I feel dumb for even having to explain this:

You want to use your questions after you see the flip? YOU USE THE FIVE NEW ONES YOU GET GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING TOMORROW. HOLY SHIT.

Because I don't particularly have any clever questions to pose. When Charter flips scum and

a role

, I probably will... but then wouldn't be able to ask until D5, which then limits the information I can get if I choose to ask the questions early in the day. I've done day questions before, but only because I specifically wanted to know something(s) THAT DAY.

There's nothing to ask about N3. We know: Vi was attacked and his pickled breadbox was smashed, Shos is a rock wearing a bulletproof vest, Katsuki/Magua is a protective role that hasn't actually been able to protect or confirm anyone in

3 nights of play

and seems to believe he'll survive the night. Gee golly gosh.

If we were bigger and brighter people I'd think this is you telling me you're jailkeeping me tonight, but

N1, Katsuki did not submit any action.
N2, upon replacing in, I protected chamber.
N3, I protected Zar.

You're not a jailkeeper. You would be voting for Charter right now because he supposedly actioned N2, right, or is that too much to ask for?

ffff this game THIS GAME

[Nuwen]

I believe Shos is a bulletproof, action-lmmune survivor given a fake-claim by the mod (you forgot the action immunity part, by the way - is this so you can be consistent later when you try to call Zar a liar, or are we just not paying much attention here).

In your next posts you can both explain why your top scum read (and the lesser scum read, Vi) is

not lynching the so-called SK when he has a vest

. Scum can't kill him. Scum can't affect his actions with their abilities. In your minds, scum should be happily lynching the so-called SK to avoid death-by-crosskill in this situation, right? So why are neither of your top scum-reads currently favoring a Shos lynch.

It's Yos and Charter, guys

.

[Nuwen]

ZAR

ZAR VOTE CHARTER I SEE YOU THERE WITH YOUR FACE

[Nuwen]

But, even more then that, think about it. Why would scum try kill Vi, who was hell-bent on lynching Nuwen for the entire game? If Vi and Nuwen were both town, scum would wait until one of them managed to lynch the other, obviously. Only Nuwen would try to kill Vi last night.

Here's the part that everyone seems to think is a scum slip. The people screaming Shos-is-an-SK seem to be ignoring the fact that:

N1:
Hiraki Protects Vi
Shos is bulletproof
Yos claims a shot on Elmo
Katsuki claims no action

Vi was shot by scum, an SK, or

both

, or

neither.

Shos was shot by scum, scum, or scum, or nothing.

In order for you not to be lying here, there are

two

missing kills. You can't think this is a result BOTH anti-town factions targeting Vi, because then

Vi wouldn't have spent so long among your top scum reads.

We'll cross off "both shots -> Vi" right away.

So what else happened in

Yos-mind

, if Vi didn't absorb

both

shots?

1. ShosSK absorbed the scum shot. Shos' shot

had

to absorbed by Vi
2.

Both shots hit Shos

, making it impossible for him to be one of the shooters. We're cross "neither" off Vi's list.

So possible explanations that fit together in Yosmind are:

1. Vi was shot the SK

AND

2. Shos was shot by scum.

Yeah, nice try. I could have bought charter if you could have found a plausible way to explain away the ttracker thing; I could even buy you suspecting me to be a SK, but there's no way in hell town-Nuwen would actually think I'm scum with furcolow here, or that I'm mafia who claimed my own kill at the start of day 2 as some kind of stupid gambit, or that the mafia killed Elmo right after how day 1 ended.

So let's play. You're obviously not opposed to playing "why would scum shoot the x," so I expect you to likewise entertain my questions about mafia shooting Shos N1. Shos tunneled onto UN D1 and didn't do anything remarkable - didn't claim, wasn't lurksy enough to be a random PR shot in the dark.

You've also said that I'm scum because I "slipped" and claimed a shot on Vi - but in Yosmind, scum couldn't have shot Vi D1.

This is at least consistent with him calling Vi potential scum all day

, because an SK shot can land on town or mafia alike, buuuut let me quote myself again here:

Vi N1

you N2

Hiraki protected Vi on a night there was at least one missing kill (two if you think Yos is a town vig, in addition to there being a third party+scum). When Hiraki flipped town, I realized that a couple things could be happening that might require a full/fresh reread.

The thought process:

1. Vi was a scum kill N1 (protected), Yos did some EXTREME gambiting as SK - claiming out a shot on vig fodder, shooting after claiming vanilla-ized.

• This was actually my first working assumption, which is why I'm
  very, very
  surprised to see Vi currently alive, along with everything else. Scum wanted him dead N1 - if he were that problematic, why would he be left alive as protect-conf-notscum? Mafia in this situation would either have to call him the target of the SK kill (which just implies knowledge of night shots, can't be used as an angle) to get him lynched or...? There's no good answer to this question.
  
  He shouldn't be alive unless he controls the mafia shot or there's more going on at night than what's been claimed.

But for completionism, I did move to

1a. Vi was an SK kill N1 (protected), Yos is telling the truth, scum kill was ??? and ??? happened to it. Shos' vest claim could fill in the ???

• The SK thinks Vi is scum too! Help me fucking lynch him and maybe we'll play games tomorrow.
  
  This pretty much implies Shos as the BP SK, and he would have had to absorb the mafia shot.
  This is where I believe the Martin flavor is important and worth reading from as many non-Shos sources as possible
  .

Following me yet?

The first situation makes it highly, highly unlikely that Vi would still be alive as town (in fact, there's a LOT that shouldn't be alive right now). I think the only explanation for this is a cross-kill onto an SK's BP (Vi -> Shos? Maybe Vi -> Yos, but I'm beginning to think he's been telling the truth), and then a no-kill or something failed on the third party's shot. Do you see what I mean?

There just aren't many complete explanations based on what powers have claimed out, unless Magua has some VERY VERY novel information to add to this mix.

I want Vi to claim next, followed by Magua.

This is the post where Yos/Charter seem to think I've claimed scum. It's the same type of process as the one I went through above to figure out what's going on in Yosmind (with one dead doc known, no Magua claim yet).


Let me reiterate that in Yosmind, N1 kill resolution pretty much HAS to be that an Shos-SK shot Vi AND mafia shot ShosSK, otherwise his reads would be radically different.

Put these two scenarios together and there's no possible Yos perspective that fits with 0 kills N3. Scum and the supposed SK

cross-shot again

?; Scum -> Shos, SK shoots Vi again? How does that fit with Nuwen being MAFIA claiming a shot on Vi, if Vi had to have been shot by Shos to account for the other missing kill?

It's not me that's making no sense in this game, and it's not me pulling out the rhetorical stops on the past few pages. If you can't follow my posts,

reread them carefully

. Yosarian has been trying to write them off as nonsensical for most of the day, probably hoping that if one person calls them silly mob mentality will kick in. He was content to reiterate very passive scum read on BOTH Nuwen and Vi all day until I started directing votes onto Charter and called him the likely buddy. That's when Nuwen stopped being "silly, maaaaybe town" and started being " brilliant scum pulling out all the stops." Not a coincidence.

Or, to put it another way, just to point out the absurdity of what you're claiming to believe here:

One more time, so everyone can hear it Parama: Yos is scum claiming vig. You think Yos is scum claiming vig. You, Parama, think Yosarian2 claimed out the scum kill as a vig bullet for no reason or hint of a track/whatever result on him.

I said this long, long before the current gamestate. We have new information a-plenty. And rightly enough, Yos' gambit seems to have worked: You haven't been targeted by any tracks; in fact, the only person interested in hitting you with a nightplay action was

Charter

. I want everyone to GO BACK AND READ THE EXCHANGE BETWEEN CHARTER AND YOS REGARDING THE "FLAVOR INVESTIGATE" CHARTER CLAIMED OUT. I believe this is scum distancing by claiming results on each other; the gamestate at the time had most people assuming tracker cleared -> Charter, hence Charter can "clear" the N2 shooter and BOTH of them are less likely to become targets of this game's swath of PRs tonight.

In other words, Yos took the N2 shot

immediately after claiming that he was vanilla-ized

.

Very important.
Please clarify.

Ok, fine, I'll fullclaim, but this is the very last inch of rope you're getting.

The way my role was set up, I lose my ability (get suspended from the police force or something) if I kill a town, and Elmo somehow flipped town despite all logic and reasoning. So yes, I am no longer a vig.

"Gosh de-darn, I guess I'll fullclaim for no reason. Yep! I'm vanilla. Nothing to see here."

Yosarian even baits the track on Charter, probably knowing that he himself will hold the gun N2

.

If I forget to post day two, just count on a vote for Nuwen/Hiraki.

hint: both of those people just helped us lynch a scum

you didn't

"Please some PR target/clear my buddy while I submit the kill over here from claimed vanilla-land."

And that's the story, morning glory. A strong gambit to save themselves from a very weak scumbuddy.

LYNCH

THE

CHARTER

I

need

help from Zar, Vi, or Magua on this one. You CAN'T be wasting your votes on each other or the survivor will just decide to wagon with scum instead of lynching scum.

[Nuwen]

I work late, late today and don't have time to say more than this wagon fucking reeks. Votes on me are

two scum

and the third party and the guy who has been tunneled on my role slot since about page 30 or so because my play doesn't seem close enough to Back Room (that was the big first thing, right?).

NO ONE is asking HOW THE FUCK I could be scum with Furcolow, the most basic question of all. I've poured a LOT of effort into pointing out the possibilities matrixes for the current gamestate, caught your fucking scum, and my reward is for town-reads to crossvote each other while the neutral threatens a deadline hammer.

[Nuwen]

Role PM

You are

Belphegor

, the phantom of the Louvre made of shadows. A mysterious source of energy has recently re-awoken you from the state of non-being in which you had fallen following your last downfall. During the day, you are immaterial and can barely summon the forces necessary to influence fate, but at night your new-found power allows you to possess the body of Polyphème Desroches - your previous host Simone Desroches’ descendant, to perpetrate your deeds. You are motivated by an unstoppable drive to destroy the Louvre Museum. To this end, you have joined force in an opportunistic alliance with Madame Récamier(Furcolow), a painting harboring bitter sentiments and an impressive desire for destruction. With her help you were successful in murdering Jean-Valérie Champollion, the director of the museum. You will stop at nothing to ensure the downfall of this forsaken institution.

Wincon

You are member of the informed minority. You win when the members of your alliance equal or outnumber the remaining players or if nothing can prevent the same.

Factional abilities

• Daytalk:
  You may communicate with your partner in this quicktopic.
  
• Kill:
  Each night, a member of your alliance may choose a player to target and destroy.

Individual abilities

• Vote:
  during the day, you may cast a vote which will count toward a lynch.
  
• Possession:
  If you choose to perpetrate the kill, you will do so by while using Desroches' body. The crime will then be traced back to your host. However be warned that if you choose to use this ability, your host will progressively become aware of something not being quite right. This ability carries beyond your host's death as you are able to possess his corpse.
  
• Phantom (passive):
  an immaterial being, investigations on your person will lead to inconclusive results and your investigator bewitched by shadows.

The game thread can be found here.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you have read and understood your role.

N1: Nuwen kills Vi (possession)
Furwhatever rolecops/blocks Zar.

N2: Nuwen kills Kanye (possession)

N3: Nuwen kills Vi (normal)

I am... so very not zen with regard to this game. At the very least, I'm blacklisting Furcolow for non-communication and then some.

[Nuwen]

Nuwen what was that batshit claim you came up with?

Just a batshit claim. My real role was investigate-immune possessor-thingy (where possession caused Parama to be the perpetrator of the scum kill). Two-man team.

[Nuwen]

Furcolow's ability was a rolecop/block combo. Bits of his PM are in our QT.

[Nuwen]

Not exactly excited that all the antitown elements were untraceable, but meh.

I wasn't immune to tracks if I submitted the kill myself, and I asked Spring how the possession ability would resolve if tracked:

Possession and NK are considered independent abilities.
If Nuwen is blocked using possession, both the kill and the possession will be blocked.
If Nuwen is tracked using possession, Nuwen will be tracked to Polypheme Desroches, but not to the victim.
If Polypheme Desroches is blocked while possessed, the kill will fail.
If Polypheme Desroches is tracked while possessed, they will be tracked to the victim.

[Nuwen]

...

[Nuwen]

Who reviewed this setup