Mini 1566: Lunar Silver Star Story Complete (Game Over)

[Squirrel Girl]

Hellooooooooooooo!

So far I have read Page 59 (and 60 too, for what that one is worth). It will take me a while to finish reading the rest because I read slow and am distracted by shiny objects. A general question for starters; why is everyone sounding so glum and worn out? It's Day 3 and there has been a scum lynch...isn't that happy fun-times? Or at least "par-for-the-course" times? What's the doom and gloom about?

[Squirrel Girl]

I finished Day 1, I will admit to a *lot* of skimming thus far, so I don't have a ton of opinions yet. I'd currently lean a Muffin, KDUB, or Kitty lynch. I will admit to a lot of mental doubt on the Kitty read. I think Sangres was the only one who was obv. towning that day in light of the flips and...well...duh. Isn't Squirrel clever? BRO also seems likely town with the way SMP interacted with him. I have a mild townread on Jake for the way he went after SMP and the way SMP felt placating back at him - felt more like a town/scum than a scum/scum interaction to me as opposed to how the Aegor one went.

The new posts on this page don't really change any of my thoughts much.

[Squirrel Girl]

Actually, maybe I lied, let's toss Aegor into the scumspicion pile and move Kdub to a place less suspect than that though more than Kitty. Though there may be some basic 'whelp, you're voting town' attitude from me there, or omgus if we want to make it official and go on a date over the read. But, y'know, that post feels like a decent one in relation to me knowing my own role PM, so I'll make that claim but don't want to debate it with anyone.

[Squirrel Girl]

Let's make Kdub the same as Kitty actually. I'm really awkward on that one. I'll shut up now.

[Squirrel Girl]

Looking at the interactions between the 3, smp/mac/zmuffin REALLY make sense. Somebody check my work

Not sure if I buy into Mac.

Want to run up Muffin instead? I buy into Muffin.

[Squirrel Girl]

And looks like I'm not even voting and no one is voting Muffin.

Vote: Muffin

C'mon, I have a fluffy tail!

[Squirrel Girl]

is this what your scum game looks like, squirrel girl

Well, I try to make my scum game look like my town game, so - yes, basically this is what my scum game would look like, because I'd try and do what I'd do as town. I think I, mostly, succeed.

and since the new girl already saw what I was seeing and is voting zmuffin

vote: zmuffin

Yayz!
Though, honestly, the sudden defense on HKC has my head a'swim again. Though I guess that could make her town and him just naughty still. I really ought to read Day 2 too. I'm still not sure where all the negativity about the game is coming from and no one bothered to try to answer that question either.

alright, so here's my persisting issue with AJ's slot

this post yesterday

so, the first part of his post strongly implies he suspects SMP, but no votes follow from that.

the second part of the post calls my claim into question, but he approaches it from an "antihero is fakeclaiming a guilty

as town

", not that i'm fakeclaiming scum 1v1ing a claimed town PR. i don't have a meta of doing this, so that's a really weird way of approaching the claims. it's like he already knows the alignments.

I guess since I'm AJ it's up to me to try and defend what he was thinking here. In reading the linked post I think you're overblowing his reaction both times.

The first part expresses an issue with SMP's claimed role and chosen actions.
The second part expresses an issue with your claimed role and chosen actions.

I think what the post shows is AJ trying to figure out stuff and pressing on both of you to see what he learns. I think if he/I were scum and he wanted to express doubt he'd...y'know, actually back it up if he was being serious. Instead he's advancing a thought and seeing how SMP reacts to it - aka, scumhunting. The same was with you, he thought your claimed actions didn't fully line up with what he would expect from you, and was pressing you to defend your choice - again, scumhunting. I don't think that post reflects what you claim to see from it at all. Do you think I'm nutty?

[Squirrel Girl]

Do you think I'm nutty?

yes

I think it's a pretty defensible position to say that he didn't express such a great belief in scum in the first part so as to lack a vote is not strange.
After all, if he asked him about how what was going on appeared scummy as opposed to stating it was scummy - that's a different deal. Do you agree or disagree with that? As in; can you explain why you think he expressed a great scum feeling there when he expressed a question as opposed to a statement. If you can't, then I appear to be correct on the first half.

As far as the second half goes, your presented issue is that he is coming at it from a position of you being town. He isn't. He's coming at it from a position of you possibly just presenting information to force a lynch, and asks why theoryPR you wouldn't have targeted a different target. Last I checked, that's questioning your role claim - and I think that though one could argue that he thought you were fakeclaiming town - it's equally supportable to suggest he thought you were fakeclaiming scum. Why do you conclude the former and rule out the latter? Because if you can't justify that in an overwhelming way, your basic stance there is based on a supposition and that's not exactly a bang-up position for a case and, again, tends to suggest my take is the more correct one. I'd even note that in your rebuttal to him, you actually agree with his point that he/me should have been considered as your target that night, so he seems to be actually coming from fairly reasonable place in thinking your targets might have seemed odd and thus worth questioning - and yet you want to call that a scumtell, even though he was at least half correct even by your own admission.

Can you show either/both point(s) to be me being nutty as opposed to you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Anti, since your claiming a blocker role, why SHOULD we believe this is any more than a ploy to get him lynched?

All I've gotten from you so far is you'll do anything you can to get the people you have the slightest suspicion on lynched.

Why wouldn't you have RB'd me or Kdub, the two you were vehemently against?

having genuine suspicion requires a town role PM.

that wording just gives me the gut feeling that he was fishing for a retraction (especially given the

context

; muffinman already suggested that he thought i was just gambiting).

i don't know, you could be right and i'm just not being objective about it, that's just what i see in the rorschach blot of the post

You're adding in the word 'genuine' yourself. Functionally all he said was 'you appear to be willing to do anything to get anyone you have expressed suspicion on lynched'. He then immediately followed that commenting with asking why you targeted a claimed lesser scum read rather than a larger scumread. He was suggesting you were being fake, now maybe he thought you were genuine town who was fakeclaiming, but, again, maybe he thought you were un-genuine scum who was fakeclaiming. I personally can't say which it was, though maybe there are some clues within his commentary as regards you in other posts around that one, but I do think you're over working the tell when expressing why you think it's a scumtell as opposed to a scumhunting (or, faked scumhunting, if you wish) tell.

@Mac - why is Muffin town?

[Squirrel Girl]

squirrel, why did you feel the need to defend your predecessor's actions?

Why should I not? I'm that slot, it's being called scum for things that, in reading the post, looked like pretty clear misconceptions of his actions, and I figured I could sort that noise. I'm pretty sure I let town down if I allow myself to be lynched.

@Mac - why is Muffin town?

i think the better question is, "how could anyone possibly think this is muffin's scum game unless they just have zero idea how muffin plays as scum?"

i mean, i know i've been lazy in reading the game, but D2 would never have played out thew ay it did if i were scum and that is something anyone who has even the slightest clue about how i play scum should know.

How do you play as scum and how does it differ from your town game?

[Squirrel Girl]

Why should I not? I'm that slot, it's being called scum for things that, in reading the post, looked like pretty clear misconceptions of his actions, and I figured I could sort that noise. I'm pretty sure I let town down if I allow myself to be lynched.

idk I never defend the actions of the person I replace, I brush off all attacks as lies and just focus on the task at hand.

I think the person attacking me is probably town and is therefore simply misguided as opposed to lying - it is then super helpy funtimes to, y'know, talk him through it instead of just screaming at him that he's lying and/or totally ignoring him as he focuses on lynching a town player.

@Muffin - Mostly what I get from that is "I would have read the game or lied about reading the game" the other stuff...I'm not sure how that's supposed to translate as something anyone without access to a scum QT could assess whether it happened or not.

[Squirrel Girl]

We started as neighbors, I have not had a chance to post in it but received the link so I have read it - my recall is basically that both sort of shared some thoughts on suspects and stuff, very generic but a reasonable feeling of openess from Mac - hold on and I'll paraphrase it.

[Squirrel Girl]

Mod: This is your thread.
Mod: It is now open.
Mac: Hey, what are your thoughts?
AJ: HKC is bad spammy, almost scummy for it, Anti is bad at playing, Sangres is hard to read, Jake is a potential lynchbait, Aegor plays bad but I vibe town, Muffin is a rough replace because he will add to the anger of the thread, Null on SMP, townish Kdub. What about you Mac-y-poo?
Mod: Thread is open again. (so, basically Mac didn't reply Night 1)
AJ: People are expecting a lot of posts from me and I am busy and don't give a hoot, my claim could save me anyway, so *nyah!*
Mac: Wanted a longer day, should have slowed SMP wagon. Town on Sangres. Town on BRO due to Sangres. HKC/Jake - noisy but townish but maybe one is scum, lean Jake in that case. Aegor is scummy, AJ is towny, Kdub is forgettable. Am I forgetting anything?
AJ: You forgot Anti. I lean that wasn't a bus though. Muffinz is also here, though I combine him with the other aggressive spam posters and find their demands on me unreasonable and playstyle based.
Mod: SG is supah sexy and awesome and cool - also she now has this link.

Pretty much that's it.

[Squirrel Girl]

As bad as I could spin on Mac is that he feels a little distanced from the game. I'm not sure I'd call that much of a scum case though. Is he normally a decisive and forceful personality? Because unless the answer is 'es' I'm not sure I get the issue. I'll also admit I usually expect town/town in neighbor pairs.

[Squirrel Girl]

Es, you should answer es to all es or no questions. Definitely!

[Squirrel Girl]

AJ: People are expecting a lot of posts from me and I am busy and don't give a hoot, my claim could save me anyway, so *nyah!*

Aj posted this (or something along these lines) unprompted? Obviously I don't have the exact words, but this gave me bad vibes.

Did you two claim to each other in the neighborhood?

What was posted in the thread has been fairly clearly expressed by me with no adjustment other than paraphrasing. It is what it is.

I personally think he was just talking the neighbor thing or something - or maybe it was a weird test of Mac. I dunno.

that is the gist of it. i mean, sometimes i read as town, sometimes i ignore large portions of a game because i don't need to read them. but as scum? no. even when i'm being lazy scum i read the game and let it show in my posts.

So if I was to actually get a burr in my fur and search through your scum games I would NOT IN ANY WAY find you saying you haven't read stuff when scum? Like, if I found one would you self vote?

. . . . . you are either ignoring 1420 and the other stuff i just mentioned or pretending you don't understand it.

Wow. Dude, relax - here's my totally crazy alternate theory "I don't understand and that's why I'm asking for more clarification"
Retract those bad boy claws, *rawr*

the key point here is that i'm one of the most methodical scum players you will ever find. i think things through carefully, consider as many possibilities as i can possibly foresee happening, and think about optimal approaches as scum. D2 simply would not have happened as it did if i were scum

Why do you choose to play worse when town?

[Squirrel Girl]

BROseidon, Mac, Kdub

[Squirrel Girl]

This is pretty much it, AJ was missing most of night one, and the bolded is a total misrep of what the fuck went down really. That's a bit worrying.

Really? That's silly. If you wanted to share more thoughts your posting could have been "here are my thoughts - what are yours?". You didn't share much Night 1 - you shared nothing. I'll admit to not checking the time stamps, but I'm pretty sure there was a gap between AJ's reply and question and the end of Night. Why does me saying this worry you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Looks like it was about 9 hours. And if you were sad that he wasn't saying more, you chose not to share that in thread. My question stands.

[Squirrel Girl]

i'm just going to set aside the phrasing of this question for a moment, because it looks like you're acknowledging i'm town here or something in a way that doesn't make sense from someone voting me

The phrasing of the question does nothing of the sort.

[Squirrel Girl]

Unvote: MuffinMan
Vote: HelloKittyCreampuff

[Squirrel Girl]

As much as I would love to join you, you are gonna have to just wait and join the Mac wagon

Eh, I think the legs are shaky on that, also, I tend to think scum with any agenda might have tried to advance said agenda, or kill me, or poke at me for AJ's sub-claim or something. I'm guessing it's a town/town and was for mod lulz myself.

You can sheep me though, my tail is large and fuzzy.

[Squirrel Girl]

Well, I'm willing to shout at them with you now, I'm pretty scary. *rawr*

Also, your stance seems to be "oh, yeah, defs they are scum - but I don't feel like trying to push througha lynch" Which, c'mon man, that's just lazy! You have a cool red shirt, people will listen to you!

[Squirrel Girl]

It's just a pastry - we can take it!

[Squirrel Girl]

SG has done nothing to counter AJ's lurky scumminess.

AJ did actually replace out - that sort of makes his lurk probably honest regardless of if he was scum or town. Is there any scum case on him besides lurking? Because I don't think that's much of a case to throw at someone who replaced out.

The biggest issues I see are Mac accusing SG of misrepping his lack of activity in her summary of the neighborhood (which SG responded to and Mac hasn't countered yet)

He also hasn't posted since I said what I said. So, it's not like he's dodging per se', so why are you calling him out on it?

Also, with Aegor/HKC as one possible pair, what made you choose Aegor over HKC considering the current wagon activity?

[Squirrel Girl]

1) This game started just over a month ago. At no point was AJ not lurking. His recent replace out does not address the several weeks of no content.
2) People who lurk produce little/no content, and therefore you question about whether there is any other scum case is impossible to answer, since other scum cases require content, of which AJ has deprived us.

1. And yet it does.
2. So your case is that he was lurking because he was scum. And that he replaced out...because he was scum really committed to selling the lurking as legit?

I wanted AJ's thoughts first. I had a reasonable townread on him from d1 reachouts but during night one I wanted to see how his reads were looking. Obviously I couldn't reply (the gap you are referring to between AJ's was the wee hours of the night here) but I opened my posting on n2 in the neighbourhood with my reads as well.

That reads as weak to me. He was a town read for you so you wanted his thoughts and to have a discussion but when he wasn't posting you just sat quietly but hated on him for not sharing? I don't really get it. Why not just share first yourself? WHat big difference did it make? What did you learn by making him go first?

It worries me cus it looked like you were trying to spin me out to be delibrately not posting, or at fault for the lack of posts, when in fact it was AJ's - evidently, he couldn't help it though.

I was trying to be deliberate in showing when Night and Day happened - yes. I would also say it is reasonable to suggest the lack of communication was from your end - AJ did post more and more substantively in the QT.

[Squirrel Girl]

No, my case is that he was scum-lurking and then replaced out. You speak as if it is impossible for someone to scum-lurk and then replace out legitimately. That has a stark false dichotomy.

Was he lurking because he was busy or was he lurking as a strategy to win?
If the latter - why did he replace out, since his posting activity seemed in line with his strategy?
If it's the former - how can you tell it was scummy as opposed to townish lurking?

[Squirrel Girl]

If the latter - why did he replace out, since his posting activity seemed in line with his strategy?

Because RL commitments prevented any participation whatsoever (in-thread, in-QT, etc.), or any other number of possible reasons.

At this stage I'd be willing to vote almost anyone just to get a wagon to four votes or something. I don't understand why no one is willing to coordinate on this.

I think Jake is town - HKC's vote looks pure bad.
I think HKC is scum - I like my vote here.
I could get behind a Kdub wagon pretty easily.
Mac and Aegor are about the same for me mentally.
BRO should probably get his vote in play unless he's planning to vote another person with no votes on them.

@Kdub - what's the Aegor case again? How do you feel about the Mac wagon?

@HKC - what's the Jake case outside of you not seeming to like him personally? Was that just a bus on SMP? It didnt look very bus-like.

@Mac - what's the Kdub case again? How do you feel about the HKC wagon?

@Muffin - stop being tunnel useless and vte someone with any chance of being lynched please?

@BRO -

[Squirrel Girl]

Squirrel, why are you talking to figure out our reason behind Jake if you think we are scum?

whooooopppsssss

obv, me

Because I think you are scum and the case is unfounded and forcing you to state the reasoning out loud will help showcase that.

vote: muffin

.

Boo!

VOTE: Jake

Double Boo!

[Squirrel Girl]

I didn't ignore it. I read it and decided it wasn't worthwhile to equate to a Muffin vote for me. Yeah, maybe he called out a scum mate, sure. But your premise is based on the conclusion "he would know he was RBed and would therefore only feel confident calling out a scum buddy"

What I think you're overlooking is the following "he knew he was RBed...and chose to claim that he wasn't"

So, in a negative way we could decide DMP was crazypants and would do nothing sensible.
In a positive way he was fishing for the RBer who targeted him - and maybe hoped to fish for Muffin's role as well.

I get your point, I will even agree it has some validity. but I don't think it's as slam-dunky as you'd like me to think. Could we stay on the creampuff please?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll also even toss out that since he claimed his role honestly (sans the 'I'mma scum' part) I actually lean towards him claiming his target honestly also. Take that with however much salt you need, but that's my take.

[Squirrel Girl]

I have to admit, Jake's posting feels like incredibly frustrated and indignant town to me. If he's faking - he has hoodwinked me fully. I can't understand why so many people are voting him, my presumption is it's more because he grates on them (or is a tempting mislynch) than an actual valid read on him as scum. I really dislike those votes and would love to have all of them find new and happy homes that would love them.

HKC has cookies and peach cobbler on her wagon.

As for your first question...

VOTE: Jake

^You see how terrible this vote is? Now look at Aegor's ISO and realize that stuff like this isn't a one-off thing, it's been a constant throughout the game.

I've seen other Aegor games. This does not feel unusual in the grand scope of his playstyle. Now, I suppose we could debate whether it's a good playstyle, sure, but I think you're making a really shallow case here that is, functionally, no better than an RVS vote. Yeah, he might flip scum - but you aren't showing any real evidence to suggest he's scum, so why are you so attached to that vote?

[Squirrel Girl]

Actually, if Jake is not going to be lynched, please just lynch me.

Stop doing this. If you are town this is one of the worst posts I have seen. Seriously now, articulate your stance or replace out because you can't handle Jake being a meanie-pants, but don't make weird emotional blackmail demands.

[Squirrel Girl]

give me a little bit to finish reading and i'll get back to you on it but i really think it's best to just pretend he's not in the game

And Muffin, seriously. How about you stop sideways needling him like this. Clearly he's an emotive guy. You've proddded him far enough to get a read...and are still barely reading him. It's not the moral high ground if you have to keep announcing how you're doing it.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't mean to sound weird about this but; if reading his posts is so upsetting to you, maybe you should just replace out and not play in games with a player that brings you to a boil so easily? As an alternate option, drink some chamomile tea or something, get a stress ball maybe? There is no reason for two adults to be unable to converse with each other in a game of Mafia. I get that the two of you disagree on points - hip-hooray! That doesn't mean name calling and chest beating are the only solutions. I think you're both likely town, I am also of the opinion that the entire battle between you is pretty disruptive and bad and is a negative effect for town, and is based on both of you just being peevish at the other. I'm finding you the more frustrating of the pair, because it feels like you're egging on his outbursts, which is fueling a wagon on him - a wagon whose case is "We find Jake obnoxious, hurr, he must be scum!" which is a case I'm very much against.

So please just stop the repetative need to proudly poitn out that you're not reading him, and maybe also just, y'know, read him in order to play the game? That would be awesomesauce in my world!

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll make this my last post on the subject since this is starting to already move away from my goal of delving into this. If everything above is true then both of you should replace out or both of you should ask the mod to force replace Jake. Both of those are not negative effects to the game.

But by choosing not to read a player's posts or to vote park a player for outside of game alignment reasons is an in-game solution to an out-of-game problem.

I am not looking to defend whether Jake is a pleasant person. I am of the opinion he is town aligned this game though - so I don't think we need anymore discussion about him not relating to game specific issues and I really, really, don't want to read any more wagon pushing on him that has to do with a belief he is a ponce or something. Muffin should be doing more catchup so we can finally see reads, not sparring with Jake or debating about Jake with me. Aegor should develop a case or (please oh please) move his vote to a viable wagon and help end this horrid solo vote wagon cavalcade we have going on right now. That's what I want, it's really all I want as far as this goes.

Edit: Thank you Aegor.

[Squirrel Girl]

In fact;

Vote: Mac

That's L-2.
It's also our, by far, biggest wagon.

[Squirrel Girl]

he literally thinks it's a smart move for scum who was blocked to claim a result on a partner anyway

and he cannot fathom the concept of rolefishing

and thinks that SMP's only option was to guess lucky when someone claimed a role block on him

I understand this - indeed, I discussed his case with him and my thoughts as pertains to it, and what you're describing here is exactly in line with my own presented thoughts. I don't see though how that prevents interaction on a polite level.

i find it disingenuous that you suggest i am fueling the wagon on him because everything i wrote quite clearly indicates i do not want to lynch him in spite of how much of a liability i think he is.

And I have continually expressed that my issue is that you are needling him and I consider that to be a sideways attempt to create bad reactions from him, and I think those bad reactions could lead to him being lynched.

i think you're scum trying to paint the people attacking jake in a bad light

Which is why I'm calling you a town read, also trying to buddy with Aegor, and am pushing a lynch on HKC or Mac, neither of whom are part of this discussion.

SG: If I have sorted someone and their posts are otherwise devoid of interesting content, what is the problem with skimming, exactly?

Because you miss the chance for new information.

i don't think they are both town (although i'd be interested in seeing if anyone does think that)

I have expressed that belief. In all honesty, I'm not particularly comfortable with this lynch and I'm backing a middle of the road read as a lynch candidate right now, but I'd like to get a claim on the table with at least a day or so to debate and decide an alternative if needed.

[Squirrel Girl]

Hey, why are you completely ignoring my case after asking for it?

I found it flaccid but couldn't find a polite way to say it. You didn't even post a case, you just voted every interaction with him and were like 'so there' when, I actually don't even see a case there. I figured it was useless to proceed further because I figured you were scum being obstructionist.

[Squirrel Girl]

even we're technically a better lynch than mac due to our lurkiness/apathy

srsly

I endorse this fully.

Hey, why are you completely ignoring my case after asking for it?

I found it flaccid but couldn't find a polite way to say it. You didn't even post a case, you just voted every interaction with him and were like 'so there' when, I actually don't even see a case there. I figured it was useless to proceed further because I figured you were scum being obstructionist.

you didn't actually read that wall of quotes, did you?

I started reading and became progressively more skimmy as I realized that you'd basically just iso searched yourself and quoted every interaction and hadn't actually presented a case. Why, what cool bit did I miss that tied it all together?

Claim: Phacia, Miller non-consecutive Doctor

(and neighbour obviously)

Yes, I am a miller. No, I did not claim it. I hoped to be town enough that I need not claim it, but my RL time has let me down here. I wasn't even going to claim it as part of my role (cause it's irrelevant now the cop is dead), but looking at flavour, I felt I'd need to. I will be more than happy to answer any questions tonight/tomorrow if there's still time.

Are you not claiming targets for some reason?

[Squirrel Girl]

Unvote

[Squirrel Girl]

Also I didn't claim my target originally because WIFOM with scum but fuck you all, you evidently don't know how to play that game.

Have you ever done this before as town?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll also admit the Miller claim is weird to me. Putting a Miller into a game with a 1-shot cop seems...weird, but at the same time, with a flipped 1-shot cop I cant think of any reason to attach Miller to any claim as scum.

Actually, I've talked myself out of it with that.

Vote: HKC

Miller doesn't make a lot of sense regardless, but I think it makes less sense for a scum to fake claim Miller at this stage in this game.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Anti - serious question. Why would Mac fakeclaim a Miller in his roleclaim?

[Squirrel Girl]

not sure what i want to do at this point

I think the basic question is the Miller one and the Doc one. We can debate left right and sideways of if he should have protected a different target - the thing is, like lynch preference, different players are going to think differently.

The thing is, a large majority of games have a protective role. Also, as I'll discuss with Antihero in a second here, I just see no value in bothering with the Miller claim. Like, seriously, a scum player would go with Doc only with a dead Cop. Unless the argument is that you think Mac is playing some high level wifom schtick...but I think I'm the only one calling it out, and that means he totally misunderstood how it would be taken if it was an attempt at that, which makes one wonder why he thought it would theory work...and also why he'd even need to bother as a Doc claim is, really, a pretty decent reason not to lynch someone anyway and would already accomplish a scumvantage angle by trying to lure a counterclaim regardless. It just makes no sense to bother with it - it gains nothing. Ergo; probably just a combo of weird mod lulz design paired with a guy choosing to play Miller in a weird way...and as a *doc* Miller...I...sorta can see the reasoning to not claim right away. I'm not sure if I agree with it (I'm not sure I disagree with i), but I can see it.

so he can use the wifom it generates to defend himself and say "scum would never do that".
which is.... exactly what's happening.

I would buy into that if it was just a Miller claim. Like, straight up, you'd have me and my vote would have been locked. But he's also claiming Doc. Doc is...y'know, a pretty solid fakeclaim for scum to go for, there hasn't been a flipped town protective yet, he's already got an angle to try to lure a counterclaim. Why would he toss in a Miller thinkg on top of that for extra wifom when 'Doc claim' is already pretty wifom, and is wifom in a *better* way to avoid a lynch, which is the sheer purpose of fakeclaiming Doc as scum in the first place.

I don't really get it, do you get something I don't? Because I'm not getting it.

we want sg to know that if she actually LOOKS at our case on jake, it's actually real reasons and incredibly legit and goes into potential motivation, when all jake has done is surface crap

Can you summarize the hot point of the case that I'm not seeing?

[Squirrel Girl]

oh and antihero needs a look for the L-1 vote without announcement.

oh well who cares we will self hammer but jake will die tomorrow when we flip town

Are you outright trying to be rude to people?
I don't think it's particularly helpful for a town wincon.

[Squirrel Girl]

If you get an extension I could get behind that, but I'm not in favor of trying to wedge a massclaim debate and execution into the last 22 hours of a game day.

Do you have some clarified reads from your re-read now?

[Squirrel Girl]

actually I don't really give a shit about the mass part

I want you and possibly kdub to claim (and lol at phone trying to autocorrect kdub to Odin)

I'm a neighbor - that has been established. Also, it wasn't a softclaim attempt except *within* the neighborhood, so I don't really think you're justified getting ants in the pants about it.

@Jake - maybe I'm just sensitive, but there has been a lot of rage all over this thread and it's ruining my mellow. Apologies.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am not fine with Mac not getting lynched today.

I think you need to expand on this if you want any chance of seeing it through. When you do that could you also let me know your take on HKC please and thank you?

[Squirrel Girl]

muffin would you prefer SG over k
Hkc?

He would. Though I am sad you're okay with it.

[Squirrel Girl]

do you think there's a 2-man team that makes sense that doesn't involve mac, sg?

I think suggesting that is easily as defensible as suggesting that a scum team has to include Mac or me - sure.

[Squirrel Girl]

Anyway, Mac obviously needs to die:

1) Miller claim like Day 3, which conveniently preempts cop investigations. Doc claim that could potentially never have been verified since he refused to protect the one person who could have verified. Who knows what the position will be today.
2) Conspicuous absence from the SMP wagon
3) Votes HKC after defending the slot and then putting it into the scumpile for no reason. Then unvotes for no real reason and does not revote.

The only way I will consider not lynching Mac today is if all players agree that he is lynched tomorrow if the Jake/pie slot does not verify his protect.

1. I don't see this as a particularly telling scum strategy.
2. Yes...and? By definition there are some town who will not be present on any given scum wagon.
3. Are you saying he chose to bus or defend here? Because you're describing what he did, I do not deny that, but I'm not sure what part makes it a scumtell.

I basically know absolutely nothing about the game. (I found it accidentally, even. ) I just saw it was locked, it wasn't over, it was bork, it needed a replacement, and it was zMuff, and figured might as well. So, give me the rundown.

Here's the rundown.

Cop cleared BRO.
BRO has decided to coast after that and stop trying.
Jake and Muffin each decided they were the manliest of all alpha males to the point they weren't playing the game anymore.
They were both probably town in any case, and Jake is basically conf. town (frankly, for me, moreso than BRO - honestly)
Mac and I are neighbors, and people decided to go with '1 neighbor must be scumz' plan yesterday and run up Mac.
After his claim of Miller Doc I and others voted HKC, and other people and HKC voted for me - I personally think this makes me obv. town also, though less than Jake or BRO.
I also think Mac is pretty much in the <66% town category for the claim - which makes little sense for a scum claim in my opinion.
That's about all that really matters.

I think last scum is Aegor or maybe Kdub - if you have an opinion on those two I'd love to talk it over.

2) I don't remember who other than me hasn't claimed yet.

You are it.
Because people can't seem to accept that I have already claimed Neighbor at this stage.

Vote: Aegor

As Mac said - we talked about it, I think this is a good option.

[Squirrel Girl]

Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude. I could never be doing things intentionally, ever.

I'm not sure if you're messing with me and this is a joke, or if you were offended. I didn't mean to offend you, but I have been bothered by your lack of effort, especially if you have a town PM, and I think it's fair to point that out to you.

Is this because scum-designated mislynch (and if so, who was the scum designating it), or because probability (in which case, your logic is bad and you should feel bad)

I would say I was a pretty obvious designated mislynch, I think both HKC (well...duh) and Aegor were the scum who attempted it.

SG, just to confirm, you are a neighbor and nothing else?

That or a Neighbor/Vig/Treestump.

I'll check and get back to you.

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe you should be less arrogantly presumptuous and not declare yourself a designated mislynch in part because you think an unflipped player is scum? Just a thought.

I don't think that's much of an arrogant stretch on my part, I don't even think there's any arrogance at all, really. I also find the desire to lynch BRO at this stage, from you, pretty iffy. Is there a case on him besides "may be a GF put into game to weaaken 1-shot cop along with the Miller Doc" Because...that seems like a *real* stretch of a case from my perspective. Also, is there a case for scumMuffin? I don't really see one at this juncture, and actually think he did okay with his meta defense of his play with me yesterday.

[Squirrel Girl]

Honestly, I'm not even sure why you're so okay with me at this juncture. By the time you're calling for a BRO lynch because "Godfather fear!" I would sort of think that ol' Nutsy McSexytail would have to be a possible scum candidate at that stage too - but I'm not even mentioned. It's weird. Your reads are weird. I think it's because you're scum.

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe it is more the fact that a "confirmed" inno has survived this long without doing anything and does not even respond to requests to do so.

I do not disagree that his play thus far appears rather sub-par from what I would hope that a confirmed innocent, and now claimed VT would do for town. But I don't think that makes him scum.

Serious question, do you really think that all of the following exist in the game?

1 shot Cop
Miller
Godfather

Because, that's pretty much a "up yers with a banana" to town as far as that cop goes. He's got one shot to maybe nail one of two scum he can detect? That's an equal chance of basically screwing town over as helping them. It doesn't scan well from a design standpoint unless the mod is a dick (and possibly the reviewers too). So, for BRO to be a GF, I would then say Mac *has* to be lying...but if Mac is lying, then we're arguing that there are 4 scum, and town's powers barely exist.

I don't think either scenario makes a lot of sense.

Edit: I don't have all my eggs in a basket....I have all my nuts in a tree I still think it's you or Kdub, and I think you make more sense.

But, a 1-shot cop weakened by a Miller/Doc? Yeah, that one makes sense to me.

Why do you so strongly disagree?

[Squirrel Girl]

I did my edit sloppy...but...yeah...

[Squirrel Girl]

I never said it made him scum. I said it cast enough doubt on his alignment that he should not be allowed anywhere near lylo, since it will mess up the remaining town(ies).

And I counter that for him to even begin to be scum, Mac would really need to be scum too - and I don't think Mac is scum, and I certainly don't think there are four scum.

Why do you so strongly disagree?

Because Mac's play has been incredibly scummy.[/quote]
I don't think it has. I also don't think you've shown anything to support this claim.

Alternatively, claiming flavor can't hurt. I also have an idea how bork uses his fakeclaims since I backup modded the game you are referring to, and I think flavor information is potentially (though not necessarily) useful.

Why don't you start the claim and then popcorn it then? I'm already bored of this side conversation and would love claims to happen and it to end so I can see if you're doing anything with it, or just trying to look like you are.

The main reason why I think mastin/Muffin might be scum is because Muffin was pushing for an SG lynch over HKC yesterday. I said I would reread him a bit, and I'll try to get to that over the next day or so, but that was my recollection. Also, he had a lot of self-meta defense of his D2 play, which maybe is accurate, but rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

Muffin's play yesterday was very focused on the idea of 1 scum/1 town for the neighborhood. He was not alone in this, honestly I seem to recall you being of a like mind.

I also see no issue with his meta defense. If you are accused of something you provably never do as scum, it is quite reasonable and appropriate to point out that you never do it as scum. I also think he was right, he never seemed to do it as scum. It's pretty much the only reason I'm town reading the slot, but he did sell me on it.

[Squirrel Girl]

I already claimed Alex. Popcorn to you.

Interesting, I guess you expect me to flub it or something?

Flavor Claim: Jessica D’Alkirk. I'm a neighbor because I talk to people at the shrine I live at.

Popcorn To: Aegor

The problem I have with Muffin isn't that he thought the neighborhood was 1 scum/1 town, it was that he pushed for your lynch over known scum. Looking at his iso, he says very little about HKC throughout the game.

I will agree he did that...but that was because he was advancing the 1 scum in the neighborhood thing. You did...pretty much the same thing. You did mention HKC a lot...but it was mostly to keep listing the people you would prefer to lynch instead of HKC. Should we be suspecting you for the same reasons you're suspecting Muffin?

[Squirrel Girl]

???


And your setup spec is that there's a 1 shot cop who is hamstrung by both a miller and a GF because...town has so much power what with their 1 shot cop, self watcher, and non-consecutive night Doc?

[Squirrel Girl]

And IDC about the popcorn flavor claim. Someone just do it. Alphabetically or w/e.

In that case;

Popcorn flavor claim: Mastin2

[Squirrel Girl]

Still happy to popcorn flavor to Mastin.

Also still pretty a'quiver about the idea of lynching Aegor.

[Squirrel Girl]

Before you go v/la...maybe a vote? Or some thoughts...? You do not make me have happy funtimes much.

[Squirrel Girl]

along with some basic VCA that decently points towards Aegor for the last scum.

mastin, I read your VCA, but a lot of your comments are just that certain VCs are "interesting" or something of the sort without further explanation. Can you summarize the VCs that you thought were most important and what those tell you about current players?

Well, I can't, because part of VCA is the circumstances behind the votes...which I know nothing about. I gave that VCA and noted potential trends in there, basically showing switches that I thought could be important. And wagon developments that could be, too. But me not being in the game at the time, I don't know about whether they actually were or not.

[Squirrel Girl]

I feel like 2026 is saying 'I presented VCA that shows that Aegor is scum'
I think 2029 is saying 'My VCA was presented to get opinions from others and I can't explain anything about it'

Which one do I have wrong?

[Squirrel Girl]

The VCA shows a trend which I THINK points to Aegor, but it's based off of abstract (and largely arbitrary) things, making a ton of assumptions about the gamestate that I have no way of knowing actually hold water. So I brought it up mainly to see if others could shed some light on it.

Okay.
Can you explain how your VCA points to Aegor?

At this point, I think it's down to mastin or Aegor for today's lynch.

What is the case on Mastin?

Which really leaves Aegor/kdub

Welcome to the neighborhood

[Squirrel Girl]

Can you explain how your VCA points to Aegor?

General traits that come up in lazy-VCA that ignore context, basically abstract yet vaguely holding validity as a scumhunting tool.

Are you intentionally trying to be vague when answering this question? Because I don't think I should need to play twenty questions and minutae string this out to get you to answer what is a fairly basic request. Could you please just explain your VCA and why it reached the conclusion of Aegor now - or are you intending to use a few words that say nothign and act like you've answered anything again?

What is the case on Mastin?

Objectively speaking, you can actually make a fairly decent one against me off of dead scum's defense of my slot.

I don't disagree, but would still like to see him state his reasoning. Is there a reason for this interjection? Are you looking to have me change my question or withdraw it or what? I don't understand why you're saying this and for what purpose.

So many options left...

What I said about you prior to the crash still stands.
Could you please start playing or admit that you have no time and replace out so we can get someone who kind of cares a bit more in that slot? You're being almost as frustrating as Mastin's non-answer answers.

I also need Mac back in here, this is *not* how you earn an extra rap in he QT.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Mastin - use the alternate vocabulary then. What might be nice is taking your answer "arbitrary trends, how wagons formed, yadda-yadda" and presenting them like this;

Abritrary Trends;

Example

Example

Explanation of examples.

How wagons formed.

Example

Example

Explanation of examples.

Since that is, what I am asking for. So now that you understand what I've been asking for maybe you can manage an answer, yes and please?

@Aegor - what is your case on Mastin?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Aegor - what is your case on Mastin?

@Mastin - hold in the blurt also

[Squirrel Girl]

POE narrows down my scumspects to Kdub and Mastin (other than BRO/Mac). And the slot has not been doing much for me in general, so IDK.

So...lurking? I think she has been doing more than Penguin or BRO or Mac, no?

[Squirrel Girl]

Heck, at least from my perspective Mastin is one of the top two or so active posters in the game.

[Squirrel Girl]

zMuffin's behavior with regard to the wagons on you/HKC yesterday

What are you seeing there? I didn't see anything that twigged me much one way or t'other from him.

[Squirrel Girl]

Active posting does not make me townread someone. Not posting does make me scumread them. I do not think mastin has been scumhunting at all, no.

Again, Kdub or mastin for me.

So your issue is that she hasn't been scumhunting? I agree that she's been weirdly conservative about explaining the logic behind the reads but I think she's done a normal job in showing scumhunting. I feel like I have to be misunderstanding you.

Um, sure. Not at this moment, though; that'll take a fair amount of time to do.

I'll keep poking, I'm good at that.

[Squirrel Girl]

More specifically, mastin has just been posting tons of "analysis" that is actually more IIoA and then saying that it vaguely leads to feelings that someone is somehow scummy, but no more specificity can be provided, of course.

She has offered promises of clarifying stuff.

I'll admit I've had to be after her to avoid that...but I feel I've had to do the exact same with you, so if you think it's a scumtell could you please stop doing it also? I think vagueness can be pro-scum, but I certainly see town do it a lot more than I'd like, It isn't a case I'm going to support much.

[Squirrel Girl]

I explained this in 2002, and you disagreed. I'm a bit puzzled why you asked me this again.

Probably because I didn't understand it then either, and you just sort of shrugged at me when I asked about it. I'll agree that you caught me reacting the same to the same confusing statement on two occasions.

Kdub, would you be willing to vote mastin? I am happy to vote mastin. If you vote, I will follow.

Ew.

Is anyone else up for a mastin lynch? I'd go for it if we could get another.

Ewwwww.

I want to reread some stuff first since there's time.

I would love it if you would do so and commit enough to feel comfortable offering opinions. I am not very super stoked with your efforts thus far. I mean, I'm actually missing Jake here at this stage, you can take that as a reflection on your gameplay however you will

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll do what I can to show where I'm coming from, but how about you show me where you are, and not only that, but on the things I have, give your take on them?

Do you realize that your current reads are functionally mirroring what Mac and I both indicated our reads were at the start of the Day phase? You're like the last kid on the swing set wanting to try to explain to the other kids how to swing or something I make funny faces about it, but at the same time I'm bringing it up because it's really weird to me as a conversation topic. You feel very disassociated from the game right now.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am filled with nutty rage for both of you...also for BRO, but that's nothing new.

@BRO - why aren't you replacing out?

[Squirrel Girl]

@BRO - why aren't you replacing out?

Why are you being unreasonably rude?

Also, I would have used nastier language here, but I respect bork too much to force him to warn me.

I don't feel I deserve harsh language and I also don't think I'm being rude.

Conter question - do you find your play up to snuff for a confirmed town? Because if your answer is 'yes' Then *I* need to replace out.

[Squirrel Girl]

Basically one of us should go, because your play is ruining my fun, and if me trying to change it is ruining yours, then the question is whether you are going to change or leave or whether I am going to leave. That's where I'm at.

[Squirrel Girl]

Now, if you want to contest that the strategy I've used this game is suboptimal, fine, go ahead

I feel that's what I've done, and you said I was insulting you when I did so.

I'm dead serious, start playing or I'm replacing out. if you're not having fun playing the game I don't even know what you're doing playing the game. It's a game, play it or stop playing it.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Mod - if BRO's next post isn't about replacing out or a promise to get into the game, I respectfully need to request replacement. Very sorry about that, I'm tense about this sort of thing.

[Squirrel Girl]

Replace out if you're going to be a whiney bitch about me using a strategy that you disagree with.

Wow.

@Mod - yes please, I'm gone. Replace me. Sorry.

[Squirrel Girl]

That does explain to me why I had no good scum cases left at the point I replaced out - an error in thinking Mac's role was town despite his play.