Mini 1581--The Final Radiant Tales...(Fin)

[Bulbazak]

/confirm

I have no other opinion.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Varsoon

[Bulbazak]

Kingdom is town, btw.

[Bulbazak]

Kingdom is town, btw.

Why?

The only one that I think is decently town is Bert because of the claim stuff.

Because I've played with him as town. He plays exactly like this. In fact, I think this awkwardness is more likely to come from town than scum.

[Bulbazak]

Cat, why aren't you voting?

[Bulbazak]

I'm just a little worried is all.

[Bulbazak]

Why did you vote Varsoon?

For this:

Getting scum out of fourteen people sounds difficult. D:

Plus it's Varsoon.

[Bulbazak]

I'm still testing things out. My town game has definitely improved.

[Bulbazak]

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

With the threat of double-voters and quick-hammers looming, can't we FoS people rather than voting?

Why are you afraid to scum hunt?

Don't kid yourself morph. The game was still in RVS on page 4, that's why nobody has said anything worth talking about yet.

But if you noticed some things worth talking about I'm all ears.

Why did you feel the need to interrupt the Morph/Gamer conversation?

As for the VC, I think Nati just uses the same document to update each VC and has forgot to change it. In other news, Bert is town.

[Bulbazak]

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

Also, why is Bert town?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful. Scum have a hard time faking that.

[Bulbazak]

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful.

Scum have a hard time faking that.

Ah, but that raises the question: What makes you think he would have to fake it as scum?
Can he not be a carefree and playful person in general? Or can he not simply be gleeful about having a scum role? I will agree that is seems genuine, but why is that alignment indictive?

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

Yes but why does he state does facts?

Because he's Kingdom, and after having been wagoned and lynched so many times for the same thing, he doesn't learn.

[Bulbazak]

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

[Bulbazak]

@Kingdom

I can tell that this isn't a game to joke around it. Damn. I wasn't hunting you whatsoever. My vote is on ZZZX all game thus far yes? The pokes and prods were simply to see what everyone else would do (and mostly me just having fun).

[Bulbazak]

@Zak
What words have I put into your mouth? I'm pretty sure that I made a serious inquiry as to why you think scum bert would be incompetent enough as to not try and act like town bert.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

[Bulbazak]

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

And you're taking a logical question and tried to change it to an emotional one to dismiss it.

My point is simple. If bert plays a cheerful game as town, then he likely also plays a cheerful game as scum.

Unless you're suggesting he changes his entire personality for every game he plays.

And you're relying on word play to mischaracterize my argument. It had nothing to do with demeanor. It had everything to do with experience and reactions.

[Bulbazak]

I cleaaaaarly see that as a scum slip. Everyone should get back on that wagon.

Scum slip <> valid ongoing game. Sorry to say but I can't discuss it more. This being a bastard modding isn't helping eh? Let's say for a sec that it was a scum slip. That would mean I am a jester and shouldn't be lynched.

Your case is invalid

Why would that mean you are a jester?

ETL your read wall looks made up to me. Overly confident Bert and ZZZX town-reads. Waffles on Bulbazak, gameplay, MafiaSSK, me. Oversoul read looks fake as hell. Varsoon read looks fake. Also, calling me lynch-bait which I don't understand from our (almost nonexistent) meta experience together. Poking at the jester comment as "weird" but not expressing any opinion on it or asking me why I said it, etc.

In short, it looks like you cared more about making a long read wall post with a paragraph talking about each player than you cared about actually scumhunting based on those reads.

This looks like scum Rubi being manipulative. A first readthrough would suggest that he didn't catch or understand what ETL wrote, but that is not the case, since he comments on the lynchbait comment. It looks like he is ignoring the entirety of ETL's read posts in order to call her reads fake. If he were town that thought this, he should be able to come up with plenty of examples from her explanations, but look how he doesn't do that. It looks as if he saw the ETL/Morph argument and decided to jump in with an ETL scumread to cash in on the momentum.

[Bulbazak]

Kingdom is town, btw.

Why?

The only one that I think is decently town is Bert because of the claim stuff.

Because I've played with him as town. He plays exactly like this. In fact, I think this awkwardness is more likely to come from town than scum.

Only meta? How familiar are you with his meta? For instance, I play with Guyett more than anyone else on this site. Nearly every game I play is with Guyett, either I replaced into his game, he replaced into mine, we started the game together, or we hydra'd the game. I can spot his alignment fairly well, and I'd say 98% of the time I'm correct right away. Let's call that level of familiarity a 10, and my familiarity with say, gameplay506, who I've never seen before, a 1. What's yours with KA?

I've played with KA as town a couple of times, and he did the same thing. For familiarity, I'd give him a 5.

Why did you vote Varsoon?

For this:

Getting scum out of fourteen people sounds difficult. D:

Plus it's Varsoon.

Why is that voteworthy? Can you expand on this a little please?

He's trying to avoid taking any type of stand. His post might as well be translated as "Why should I vote? We're not going to lynch scum anyway.", which is a scummy response.

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

This is the first time you make any notion of Bert's alignment, and it's a little strange to me, especially at the time this was posted. Why are you assuming so quickly that Bert is town?

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

With the threat of double-voters and quick-hammers looming, can't we FoS people rather than voting?

Why are you afraid to scum hunt?

This is kind of a strange accusation. From your RVS vote, and your questioning of gameplay506, I'm curious why this happened. It almost seems like you chose someone to pick on and are continuing with it without evolving with the thread.

I'd expect Varsoon as town to be doing some sort of scumhunting, instead of him sitting in the background being afraid to vote. And I'm not going to just let him fade into the background just because the conversation is going in another direction.

Don't kid yourself morph. The game was still in RVS on page 4, that's why nobody has said anything worth talking about yet.

But if you noticed some things worth talking about I'm all ears.

Why did you feel the need to interrupt the Morph/Gamer conversation?

As for the VC, I think Nati just uses the same document to update each VC and has forgot to change it. In other news, Bert is town.

K. Same question as above regarding Bert. At what point were you so convinced of his alignment?

Shortly after he double voted the mod for lying a second time on the VC.

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

I think you're defense of KA against gameplay506 is really, really weird. Why are you doing it?

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

Also, why is Bert town?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful. Scum have a hard time faking that.

That's not true. I know that both KA and Ffery were in Dark Age of the Law where he was all sorts of playful, even after Ffery/GiF scared the crap out of him with their fake lie detector crumbs or whatever it was he thought. I'm concerned that you are "filling in the blanks", i.e. starting with a townread on someone who is easy to townread, and then just tacking on reasoning when prompted for it (rather than coming to the reasoning prior to the townread). Besides his attitude/tone, is there anything else that suggested his alignment to you?

That's about it. It looked and acted like a town Bert, so my read was town.

More protecting KA. Why?

Because the reasons he was being voted were based on playstyle, which made the wagon bad. And I'm going to call out a bad wagon.

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

Mirhawk is not interested in any answers. If he was, he wouldn't be twisting my words when asking the questions. He's trying to argue semantics rather than motivation, and that's incredibly scummy.

@Kingdom

I can tell that this isn't a game to joke around it. Damn. I wasn't hunting you whatsoever. My vote is on ZZZX all game thus far yes? The pokes and prods were simply to see what everyone else would do (and mostly me just having fun).

I was under the impression that you thought KA was town. What does this face indicate here..?

That was a reaction to Sns saying that he wasn't trying to scumhunt Kingdom, as if Kingdom is forcing him to play like town. It's a very scummy reaction, and it seems to be setting up a possible excuse for Sns after KA flips town.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

And you're taking a logical question and tried to change it to an emotional one to dismiss it.

My point is simple. If bert plays a cheerful game as town, then he likely also plays a cheerful game as scum.

Unless you're suggesting he changes his entire personality for every game he plays.

And you're relying on word play to mischaracterize my argument. It had nothing to do with demeanor. It had everything to do with experience and reactions.

Same thing here. I don't see how this makes Mirhawk scum at all. In fact, it shows me that he is very interested in pinning down your exact response, which you are continuing to evade.

He's not trying to figure me or Bert out. He's playing with words, which is scummy as crap. His posting is incredibly fake, and he is arguing just to argue. These are not town traits ETL.

Bulbazak has been downgraded from Maybe Town to Maybe Scum.
Mirhawk has been upgraded from Scum to Maybe Town.

Here's what I don't understand. Your read couldn't have changed that much from an ISO reading, as you had actually already read the ISO. So seeing as there was nothing that happened in the meantime, what prompted the change in reads?

[Bulbazak]

I'm concerned that your read on him is based only on meta, according to you, but you only rate your familiarity with him as a 5. This is incongruent with your exhibited level of confidence in the read as well as your defense of him several times.

It's good enough for this stage in the game.

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

Sure, but it indicates that you do consider Bert town at this point, plus, at the end of this same post, you proclaim that he IS town. So, why did you assume so quickly that Bert is town?

I liked his reaction and thought it looked like town Bert.

Fair enough. I don't have enough meta with Varsoon to say otherwise.

In our last game together, Mafia Among the Chosen, I nailed Varsoon as scum on the first couple of pages. He was also paranoid enough about me that he blocked me from being chosen in pregame. I'm pretty confident that I could figure out Varsoon's alignment if he started posting.

I don't understand how that is alignment-indicative, nor how it is strong enough to have this kind of confidence. It's been cleared up that Nat messed up the VCs. You think voting the mod is town? Or was it something after that and you're just using it as a time marker? If so, what?

I liked the way Bert went about it, and I thought it looked like town Bert.

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

That doesn't answer why you defended KA instead of attacking gameplay.

Because I essentially cut off Game's line of attack. That's good enough for now until I can figure out what Game's posting means.

Yeah... but you didn't. You just defended KA. Those are two different actions and two different choices one can make. You didn't choose to attack people who were "going after low hanging fruit"; you chose to defend KA.

And your point is?

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

I said that Bert's play was carefree and playful, which is hard for scum to fake. I was saying that Bert's posting looked genuine and not fake. Mirhawk comes back with "So you don't think Bert can be cheerful as scum?", which is not what I said at all. My read had to do with the genuiness of Bert's posts, not with his emotional state when playing the game. This looked like a purposeful twisting of words to me, and given that Mirhawk had already shown a propensity for keeping options open ("Well, it may be town" he'd say about someone's townread, "but it could also very well be scum.".), and that he was being very opaque with his play, I felt that pointed more towards a scum agenda than a town one.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

I haven't, but here they are again:

1.) Because his play and reactions reminded me of town Bert, particularly his claim and the way he handled it.
2.) Because the attacks being baseless does not necessarily say anything about the attackers. I thought it was best to diffuse the attacks, rather than just attack someone for a wrong belief. I'm always going to address bad attacks.
3.) I'd imagine there'd be slight differences. This looks like town Bert to me, so I'm sticking with that.

That's really all I can think of to say that's game related right now. And, sorry I've been absent for so long, its just that if I actually had posted anything it probably would have been more dissing myself, because that's really all I wanted to do. (Also speaking of Nati's ruleset, my dead what?)

I'm not sure what to make of this. KA, why are you not wanting to participate in the game?

P-edit: All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

[Bulbazak]

P-edit: All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

What do you mean by game reference?

Your role PM should be in the form of "You are [name], from [game]. You are a [role].". So if you are flavor claiming, you should be able to tell us what game you're from.

[Bulbazak]

P-edit: All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

What do you mean by game reference?

Your role PM should be in the form of "You are [name], from [game]. You are a [role].". So if you are flavor claiming, you should be able to tell us what game you're from.

You think flavor claiming on day 1 is a good idea?

Not really, but if someone decides to flavor claim, I'd like for them to claim their game as well.

[Bulbazak]

BAITEN KAITOS

whatever that is. murder me.

The Great Mizuti?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba I'm kalas

That makes sense, actually. The second vote would be the guardian spirit.

[Bulbazak]

Apologies for disappearing like that. I got kidnapped.
Will read through soon. Anything I should keep in mind while reading?

The rest of your team broke down and confessed. They've agreed to lynch you first.

[Bulbazak]

Apologies for disappearing like that. I got kidnapped.
Will read through soon. Anything I should keep in mind while reading?

The rest of your team broke down and confessed. They've agreed to lynch you first.

Poor varsoon never can get a break, this already happened to him once.

Varsoon just volunteered to be his team's martyr.

This is the saddest turn of events.
I am, however, town.
Bulbazak, you rolled scum this game?

Nope, but you might have.

Varsoon I liked whatever you were doing earlier in this game but hope you segue into more serious play soon.

He did absolutely nothing. What about that did you like?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba I'm kalas

That makes sense, actually. The second vote would be the guardian spirit.

is bert a confirmd DV?

Yes.

Vote Interdimensional Arsehole

Role fish more. I dare you.

[Bulbazak]

Everyone is probably thinking it but Bulba is probably a flavor cop of some sorts.

1.) Why are you thinking it?
2.) Why would you out it if you thought that was the case?

[Bulbazak]

Everyone is probably thinking it but Bulba is probably a flavor cop of some sorts.

also, INCREDIBLE role fishing, VOTE: Oversoul,

especially since you fish a fucking COP.
and if this is the case, better all start flavorclaiming! lol it suits my agenda. I mean there must be SOME protective role here

Votes Oversoul for rolefishing (He was not.), and the proceeds to role fish like crazy.

I was just thinking that Bulba must know about Baten Kaitos (sp?) and deciphered my ability! He seemed knowledgeable in suggesting that I'm Great Mizuti (sp?)

I own the game.

[Bulbazak]

Ugh I am so bored and I don't know shit about this game :@@@@@@@@@@@

VOTE: Bulbazak because I didn't actually like his read on Bert and especially the reasoning for it.

You don't think I can quickly get a read on someone I've played with several times? This is a very lazy vote.

woah I have lots of votes on me

time to get serious

why am I being voted.?

Because of all the rolefishing you've been doing.

I still very much like Oversoul and gameplay506 for town.

Why do you have a townread on Gameplay?

Well, ETL has a pattern of reading me the opposite of my alignment, so I'm not surprised at all.

Is this about her being uncomfortable about you being on the IA wagon or about her reading you as town in the previous read post?

Bulb's post 422 is all kinds of wut... Terrible reason to vote them, especially after the whole vote shit has been sorted, and.. it was an established claim... and IA was asking if it had been confirmed yet. wut.... so much scum jesus...

Learn how to read my posts. My vote wasn't for their reaction to Bert's claim, but for their rolefishing in general.

Mirhawk post 391 is a beautiful thing (as is post 401. And reminds me -

Everyone not voting ZZZX needs to tell me why, because dude is obvscum.

Somebody derailed this wagon. I WILL find out who.

I'm working on it.

Fairly certain I wasn't doing anything earlier in the game, though.

I think Bulbazak might be scum, but it's a hunch.

This is a good town post. He questions Rubicon's easy statement. Gives info on where he's at (and I agree). Varsoon moves out of Null to Maybe Town.

He replied to morph asking about his vote by explaining how to "stay safe". Then freaked out and said "SHIT WRONG GAME". But it's not the wrong game. Here, lemme quote it:

Today was the first exam of the finals


I got burned

In other news I am feeling better about aces but I'll keep my vote for a little while.

If you feel better about him, why would you leave your vote there?

In this game keeping some voting is useful because I allows us to give pressure while still able to stay safe.

I have played countless games with fools/jesters in here or other sites such as epic mafia so I am pretty certain of my ability in recognizing who is NOT a jester most of the time ( catching jester is difficult )

He is talking about this game specifically. The fact that it was quoted is likely because they have a PT where you can use the bbcode quote feature.

It wasn't the wrong game.

It was the wrong thread.

He accidentally hit post, instead of copying his response over to the PT.

stopped reading there. this quote is PERFECT. I'll start by VOTE: maruchan and continue with +1 to the townread on Varsoon.

I'll read next part of posts someone in the future

Buddying Alert! Buddying Alert!

Bulbazak:

"Role fish more. I dare you."

No prior significant interaction with the slot. No major suspicion expressed. The only reason I can find for Bulb's vote on IA is that he asked if Bert's DV had been confirmed or not (it hadn't and still hasn't), and Bulb calls it "rolefishing".

It should be very apparent that I'm voting them for their blatant rolefishing, as I've pointed out multiple times. And my reaction to such rolefishing in trying to force a flavor massclaim should not be that surprising to you, since you played in Indie Game and have seen my distaste for such mass claims in person.

Also a poor reason because it's not a reason at all. A vote for asking people to flavor claim in a bastard game by Natirasha. AND after defending the futility of this exercise from a scum POV, in that the game can't be broken by flavor.

If Nati's games cannot be broken by flavor claims, then why is IA going through so much trouble to get everyone to flavor claim?

morph the cat:

"Synch achieved"

What? Prior to the vote, nothing regarding IA. Next post does explain. Weird though, because they call sns the strongest scum read, when it was ZZZX prior to the replacement, and from what I can tell, the only reasoning for scumreading the slot at all

is the replace out

.

For someone yelling at people to read the thread, this summary shows that you have not read the thread closely enough to see Morph being massively suspicious of Sns prior to his replacing out. Their vote did not come out of left field like you are trying to say it did.

Furthermore, the counterwagon theory that you are trying to present is very shaky to start with. It's based on the concept of scum wagons having resistance to them, even though town make up a majority of the players. As such, VCs can not always give you the best picture of what's going on. The IA wagon, for example, was very difficult to get started. It actually stalled a couple of times before it took off. And it took its time in building. It should say something that the last 3 votes or so joined the wagon relatively quickly. And let's not even talk about all those times that wagons on scum build without a counterwagon due to that person either being very scummy and/or town being very in sync. Given the evidence in thread, I believe that the IA wagon has the best chance of flipping scum.

[Bulbazak]

I read the thread. I commented on everything I felt needed a response. I have been paying very close attention, Bulb. Trying to wash it all away by claiming that I haven't is bullshit.

As Morph and I have both pointed out, you obviously haven't been paying that close attention.

IA has not been rolefishing. I don't personally give a shit why he asked for flavor claims, though I'd be willing to bet his VT claim is nonsense cuz of this

-Incredibly bastard! Power madness!

Hunting for flavor claims is rolefishing, as it's possible to ascertain roles from flavor (Example: Kalas=Double Voter). And saying that you can't understand where I'm coming from with this is ludicrous, as I voiced the same opinion in Indie Game, which you were a player in.

And then, your argument against my complaints on the lack of a counterwagon is "hurrdurr town are the majority". Are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious. This applies to pretty much every mafia game ever and is irrelevant because of this. I find it hard to believe that you are unable to see what I'm saying. The IA wagon never stalled. The claim that it did is preposterous. It took off at the speed of light in terms of number of posts from your vote to L-1.

Quit strawmanning me. My point was that the tell is unreliable for a variety of reasons, town being the majority being one of them. And the IA wagon did take awhile to start. There was a lot of suspicion on that slot for awhile before the wagon started, and no one wanted to vote for them.

And "given the evidence in the thread", town is very much NOT in sync or there wouldn't have been scattered votes all over everywhere all fucking day long.

Saying that town were not in sync at one point in the day is not proof that town cannot be in sync later in the day in regards to scum.

Please stop fucking lying to me. I'm not stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

I'm not lying to you, and I'm concerned that you're not seeing where I'm coming from, especially since you've seen me have these opinions before, and especially since you ignored a scumread on IA, who was your strongest scumread, based on scummy actions because "The wagon built too fast.".

@Bulbazak
Who are your scum reads aside from IA?

Varsoon, Maruchan, and you.

Maruchan, have you looked at your role PM yet?

What the crap?

I did read it. It still doesn't make sense in a scum topic, even though I actually do think that the first part of that post was intended for this game. The part where it doesn't make sense for him to quote the Morph post goes both ways, he would have no reason to post that in the scum forum either. What I think is that the part about jesters was meant for another game, and he was trying to respond to both games at the same time in different tabs and typed that in the wrong one without bothering to look at the rest of his post or something. And the ease comment was about how the fact that private topics, while private, have a completely different color scheme. It would be way harder not to notice it than it would be to miss something like that.

I'm not sure how to feel about this post, actually. The overjustification for ZZZX just seems off, and the excuses made don't make sense.

P-edit: Townread of KA gone for that "scum are people too" comment. Mirhawk slips into null territory.

[Bulbazak]

Also - wat? I haven't "grossly mischaracterized" anything. It is my perception of your words. If it's wrong, that's your fault.

What?

[Bulbazak]

tepmted to replace out, so this slot isn't burdened by ETL's outside-game-influence on wanting it gotten rid of.Like extremely tempted. Because that's bad for the slot, bad for the town, and bad for the game as a whole.

Unvote

Vote Maruchan

[Bulbazak]

[

VOTE: bulbazak

? y u vote bubblicious

I call Bubblicious as a future hydra name.

[Bulbazak]

opportunism #2.

For an awesome name? Okay...

Unvote

Vote Interdimensional Arsehole

[Bulbazak]

bulba I'm getting a vague sense of being WK'd by you and it's freaking me out a little.

Well, seeing as you're not in a position to be WK'd, I'd say that you need to nip that paranoia in the bud.

[Bulbazak]

I don't feel good about this but whatever. We don't have much time.

VOTE: Beast

Why Beast over IA?

[Bulbazak]

Is BC awesome?

Let me put it this way: Even if I have a townread on him, I normally don't care if he's lynched.

So you are lynching me because I ain't posting? Huh. There are far bigger lurkers in this game. Still just tell me when to claim.

if memory serves right, he was on all the leading wagons. the only exception was the wagon on us, in which he was the first vote. his votes are usually just cast, not explained nor discussed. and I just can't seem to remember his content in this game. at least we have reasons to not be posting much content..

Nope. Try again. Here's my voting history: Varsoon>Mirhawk>IA>Maruchan>IA. I explained every single vote, and rather heavily discussed most of them. And none were the leading wagons at the time of my vote (Maruchan was close to the IA wagon in length at the time, and I wasn't on that wagon for very long.). Do you have any more crap you want to throw to try justifying your vote?

Bulbazak - the one who should be voted imo. His reads are strange, I don't like his logic too. I don't remember something specific but it's a lean scum.

How are my reads strange? What don't you like about me logic? For someone that you feel should be voted, and who you're voting, you don't seem to have very solid reasoning for your vote.

Bulbazak is scum. I am telling you this. I am fucking certain of it. His interaction with Mirhawk is extremely telling. He accused him of "twisting" words, when it was 100% clear to me what Mirhawk was asking, repeatedly, and Bulbazak dodged and threw sand and tried to hide his dodging with angry noises.

Nope. Try again. I'm currently considering that my earlier interaction with Mirhawk may have just been the two of us misunderstanding each other, but he was saying something entirely different from what I initially said, which was my big issue.

IA is town. For now, though I'm pretty sure. Especially now that SC's game is over, I can say, this is a very close match to Guyett's attitude/play there, with shos adding pleasant streams of logic. Voting here is a scumclaim and I will not fucking back down.

Show this logic you're talking about. The only thing that hydra has managed to do this entire time is to rolefish consistently. When they did get around to voting, they made up BS reasons, meaning their vote is essentially OMGUS.

Morph, why aren't you voting IA-scum with me?

[Bulbazak]

What is your lying scum read?

Town, but annoyed at ETL.

[Bulbazak]

Why are people voting Bulbalicious

1 Lazy vote, 1 scum vote, 1 paranoia vote, and 1 sheep vote (also possibly scum)

[Bulbazak]

What is your lying scum read?

Town, but annoyed at ETL.

And you think that town-ETL would so emphatically get her Guyett read wrong?

I don't think she got the read wrong. She had it right and then backed down when they got close to being lynched.

Bulba which is mine vote?

The lazy one.

Bulba is an opportinistic fuvk

I proved that wrong. So good luck.

I feel like Bulba, if town, should have a similar thought process about you, and yet he's asking me to vote IA with him.

yes exactly... ? He's trying to butter you up because you disagree with me, and using AtE and trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to lynch him.

Where am I using AtE on you? I've tried explaining my thought process to you and you haven't been listening. I'm content enough to say you're wrong and that I'm annoyed with you and leave it at that. Heck, I used more AtE in Chain of Command than here.

[Bulbazak]

You provd fuck all

Here are your accusations that I proved wrong:
1.) I was on all the leading wagons. Wrong! During the leading wagons early d1 (KA & ZZZX) I was voting Varsoon. I was the one who essentially started the wagons on Mirhawk and IA. If anything, you might have a point on Maruchan, but I was not on that one very long before switching back to IA, and 1 out of like 5 is a very bad reason to say that I was on every leading wagon.
2.) Every vote is a naked vote. Wrong! Most of my votes had some reasoning or stimulus attached to them.
3.) I did not explain my votes. Wrong! I explained why I was voting every single person. Maruchan was probably the weakest explanation, but even then, there was reasoning given and it wasn't that large of a leap to figure out why I was on the wagon.
4.) I never discussed my votes. Wrong! I discussed my Varsoon vote with Morph. I discussed my Mirhawk and IA votes excessively with ETL. Again, the only one not really discussed was Maruchan, and that was because the vote wasn't on there for very long.

So you raised 4 points against me to call me opportunistic scum, and 4 out of 4 points were wrong. Now are you going to continue spewing BS at me or are you going to sit down and take your lynch like a man?

P-edit: I am pushing my preferred lynch, that's why I'm trying to get Morph, who has a scumread on that slot, to vote IA with me. As for you, I tried talking with you. You shut me down, and you're being incredibly volatile right now. I even tried to tell you why your reason for trying to derail the IA lynch was bad, and you essentially shouted me down and insulted me. Your actions are incredibly toxic right now, so while I have a townread on you, I'd rather not deal with you atm.

[Bulbazak]

And ETL says I'm not biting her head off...

[Bulbazak]

What are you talking about Bulb? I've been perfectly civil???

Bull crap! I tried to explain my thought process behind Mirhawk and you essentially tunneled and shouted at me. I tried to explain my thought process on IA and why you were wrong, and you insulted me. You essentially bit Maru's head off. For someone who said they wanted to take their time to read me, you've jumped down my throat at every opportunity, and I'm not seeing any of that paranoid waffling from you. You've been on the warpath, and nothing I've said is getting through to you. Heck, now that I think about it, my trying to talk to you is like when I try to talk with Mollie.

[Bulbazak]

I tried to explain my thought process behind Mirhawk and you essentially tunneled and shouted at me.

Show me. I remember my first wall post on you regarding Mirhawk's question. I distinctly remember taking my time to make sure the post itself wasn't rude.

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

Mirhawk is not interested in any answers. If he was, he wouldn't be twisting my words when asking the questions. He's trying to argue semantics rather than motivation, and that's incredibly scummy.

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

Here I try to explain my thought process to you, and you just jump to "Bulba is dodging the question.". There were other ways to ask this, and you chose one of the most adversarial, which is reminiscent of Thor. This is not you asking. This is you arguing.

My read on you has changed because I think your defense of KA is unwarranted, your Bert read is, essentially, baseless, and I don't like your reaction to Mirhawk's questioning of you.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

Here you accuse me of ignoring questions. And as I point out in a later post, I actually addressed all of those questions multiple times, making your accusation unfounded. Something else that never really clicked with me was your sudden reversal on the Mirhawk discussion. Sure, I get that you reread, but it still bugs me how you went from "I like Bulba's stance on his discussion with Mirhawk. Townread. Mirhawk scumread." to "Bulba's stance on his discussion with Mirhawk is scummy. Scumread. Oh, and Mirhawk is now a townread.". That's a pretty striking 180, even with the reread.

And then we have my response to you:

Spoiler: Response

I'm concerned that your read on him is based only on meta, according to you, but you only rate your familiarity with him as a 5. This is incongruent with your exhibited level of confidence in the read as well as your defense of him several times.

It's good enough for this stage in the game.

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

Sure, but it indicates that you do consider Bert town at this point, plus, at the end of this same post, you proclaim that he IS town. So, why did you assume so quickly that Bert is town?

I liked his reaction and thought it looked like town Bert.

Fair enough. I don't have enough meta with Varsoon to say otherwise.

In our last game together, Mafia Among the Chosen, I nailed Varsoon as scum on the first couple of pages. He was also paranoid enough about me that he blocked me from being chosen in pregame. I'm pretty confident that I could figure out Varsoon's alignment if he started posting.

I don't understand how that is alignment-indicative, nor how it is strong enough to have this kind of confidence. It's been cleared up that Nat messed up the VCs. You think voting the mod is town? Or was it something after that and you're just using it as a time marker? If so, what?

I liked the way Bert went about it, and I thought it looked like town Bert.

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

That doesn't answer why you defended KA instead of attacking gameplay.

Because I essentially cut off Game's line of attack. That's good enough for now until I can figure out what Game's posting means.

Yeah... but you didn't. You just defended KA. Those are two different actions and two different choices one can make. You didn't choose to attack people who were "going after low hanging fruit"; you chose to defend KA.

And your point is?

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

I said that Bert's play was carefree and playful, which is hard for scum to fake. I was saying that Bert's posting looked genuine and not fake. Mirhawk comes back with "So you don't think Bert can be cheerful as scum?", which is not what I said at all. My read had to do with the genuiness of Bert's posts, not with his emotional state when playing the game. This looked like a purposeful twisting of words to me, and given that Mirhawk had already shown a propensity for keeping options open ("Well, it may be town" he'd say about someone's townread, "but it could also very well be scum.".), and that he was being very opaque with his play, I felt that pointed more towards a scum agenda than a town one.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

I haven't, but here they are again:

1.) Because his play and reactions reminded me of town Bert, particularly his claim and the way he handled it.
2.) Because the attacks being baseless does not necessarily say anything about the attackers. I thought it was best to diffuse the attacks, rather than just attack someone for a wrong belief. I'm always going to address bad attacks.
3.) I'd imagine there'd be slight differences. This looks like town Bert to me, so I'm sticking with that.

That's really all I can think of to say that's game related right now. And, sorry I've been absent for so long, its just that if I actually had posted anything it probably would have been more dissing myself, because that's really all I wanted to do. (Also speaking of Nati's ruleset, my dead what?)

I'm not sure what to make of this. KA, why are you not wanting to participate in the game?

P-edit: All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

A response that you ignored. And now you come back at me that I dodged talking about the Mirhawk situation. Bull crap!

I tried to explain my thought process on IA and why you were wrong, and you insulted me.

No I didn't. Show me.

I read the thread. I commented on everything I felt needed a response. I have been paying very close attention, Bulb. Trying to wash it all away by claiming that I haven't is bullshit. IA has not been rolefishing. I don't personally give a shit why he asked for flavor claims, though I'd be willing to bet his VT claim is nonsense cuz of this

-Incredibly bastard! Power madness!

I don't know why you are acting like everyone has to live up to your ideals of play. Jake from State Farm does that and it annoys the fuck out of me because he's wrong 90% of them time when he does it. This is pretty standard shos/Guyett fucking around and

it is not alignment indicative

. Not to mention... WHAT ROLEFISHING?

And then, your argument against my complaints on the lack of a counterwagon is "hurrdurr town are the majority". Are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious. This applies to pretty much every mafia game ever and is irrelevant because of this. I find it hard to believe that you are unable to see what I'm saying. The IA wagon never stalled. The claim that it did is preposterous. It took off at the speed of light in terms of number of posts from your vote to L-1.

And "given the evidence in the thread", town is very much NOT in sync or there wouldn't have been scattered votes all over everywhere all fucking day long.

Please stop fucking lying to me. I'm not stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

You're scum and you're trying to whitewash my arguments because you know I know you're scum.

ETL

This is pretty freaking insulting ETL. You grossly mischaracterized my argument, and I even told you so:

And then, your argument against my complaints on the lack of a counterwagon is "hurrdurr town are the majority". Are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious. This applies to pretty much every mafia game ever and is irrelevant because of this. I find it hard to believe that you are unable to see what I'm saying. The IA wagon never stalled. The claim that it did is preposterous. It took off at the speed of light in terms of number of posts from your vote to L-1.

Quit strawmanning me. My point was that the tell is unreliable for a variety of reasons, town being the majority being one of them. And the IA wagon did take awhile to start. There was a lot of suspicion on that slot for awhile before the wagon started, and no one wanted to vote for them.

And "given the evidence in the thread", town is very much NOT in sync or there wouldn't have been scattered votes all over everywhere all fucking day long.

Saying that town were not in sync at one point in the day is not proof that town cannot be in sync later in the day in regards to scum.

Please stop fucking lying to me. I'm not stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such.

I'm not lying to you, and I'm concerned that you're not seeing where I'm coming from, especially since you've seen me have these opinions before, and especially since you ignored a scumread on IA, who was your strongest scumread, based on scummy actions because "The wagon built too fast.".

And if I wasn't sure about your alignment, then maybe I'd be paranoid and waffling. I'm not unsure about your alignment.

Perhaps your conf. bias is the problem then, because you are way off on my alignment.

[Bulbazak]

1) Where is the tunneling and shouting in the first quote? I wanted you to answer the question, and you still didn't answer it, so I asked you again and tried to make it clearer. So, where is the "tunneling and shouting"?

I actually thought that argument lasted longer than it did and was surprised that you never answered the second post (Why didn't you?). But you've still tunneled me on the Mirhawk argument, as you continue to cling to it as a reason and have never addressed what I've said and have now said I was dodging you, when I have not.

2) I did not feel you answered them to my satisfaction, so I pointed them out for you specifically to answer.

But that's not what you said. You said that I neglected to answer, or ignored, several of your questions, which was false. I then went out of my way to answer them again, and you ignored my response and have still shown no indication that you acknowledge that I addressed all your questions in the first place.

3) No. You said that the argument was invalid because town make up the majority. If there were various other reasons, why did you pick that one and not mention anything else that would prove your point? Because "town is the majority" is pretty lame, especially if there are "a variety of reasons", none of which you expanded upon.

And then you call it strawmanning when I am referring to things you yourself said and asking you about them.

No, that's not what I said:

Furthermore, the counterwagon theory that you are trying to present is very shaky to start with. It's based on the concept of scum wagons having resistance to them, even though town make up a majority of the players. As such, VCs can not always give you the best picture of what's going on. The IA wagon, for example, was very difficult to get started. It actually stalled a couple of times before it took off. And it took its time in building. It should say something that the last 3 votes or so joined the wagon relatively quickly. And let's not even talk about all those times that wagons on scum build without a counterwagon due to that person either being very scummy and/or town being very in sync. Given the evidence in thread, I believe that the IA wagon has the best chance of flipping scum.

I mentioned the majority part in passing. My main argument was that the theory is very shaky, and that VCs can never give you a proper idea of what the buildup and momentum of a wagon actually looks like. This is something that I've argued in multiple games. As a secondary piece of information, this theory is okay. As a primary piece of evidence used to break up a wagon, it is absolutely horrible, especially when you use it to break up the wagon on someone you had been scumreading. You essentially used that theory to break up the wagon after accusing everyone on the wagon for having no reason to vote IA, which was false.

Nowhere in 551 did I insult you. Not once. I didn't call you names. I didn't insult your intelligence. I didn't verbally abuse you. Just because I used the words "bullshit" and "fucking" to color my narrative doesn't make it insulting.

You presented my argument in the most insulting and degrading means possible. Not only that, but you took part of one line out of my argument and used it to discredit the entire thing. And then you said I was lying, which I was not, which was essentially you furthering coloring my arguments in a negative light, instead of straight up dealing with them. If you don't think that's insulting, then that just proves that you are too far gone.

I was pretty clear on why you were wrong. And again you are trying to discredit my read on you by calling it confbias, and besides being one of my biggest pet peeves on this site, it's most often done to me by scum.

When you have your head stuck in the sand and are refusing to listen to anything I have to say, heck yeah I'm going to call you out on you having conf. bias regarding my alignment!

P-edit: Bert, get your vote back on IA.

[Bulbazak]

ETL, I want you to spell out why IA is town, because the only thing they've done all game is rolefish, and there has been zero scumhunting coming from that slot.

[Bulbazak]

Asking about flavor is not role fishing. Stop trying to shoehorn what actually happened into what you want people to think happened.

It's absolutely role fishing. When flavor claims are related to actual roles, like Kalas=Double Voter, then it's absolutely role fishing. I have stated time and time again how any sort of mass claim like that is a bad idea and how flavor claiming actually helps scum. Heck, I stated it emphatically in Indie game, which, again, you were in. All IA has done this entire day phase is rolefishing, and I can't understand how you are just idly sitting by and letting them get away with it.

IA is town because the Guyett part of the hydra is acting like townGuyett.

HOW is he acting like town Guyett? Because I've played with town Guyett before, and I'm obviously not seeing what you're seeing.

Either you trust my read on him or you don't.

I don't. His actions in this game don't make sense coming from town. If you can't trust my meta reads, then I'm not going to blindly trust yours.

[Bulbazak]

Hey well guess what - flavor doesn't tell me shit. I'm glad it tells you something, but I'm willing to guess that 90% of the rest of us don't fucking know what to do with flavor at this point.

Yeah, it's not like we're playing this on the internet, where Wikipedia is a thing.

You also keep bringing up the Indie Game where 1) I was scum 2) wasn't paying attention 3) replaced in LYLO, 4) didn't read the thread and 5) lost. I don't get the relevance.

There was a push for a mass flavor claim, and I was heavily against it. One of the reasons brought up, by Desperado I believe, was that flavor claiming could help scum narrow down possible PRs, and I agree with that sentiment. Trying to push mass flavor claims is the equivalent of role fishing.

I don't trust you because I think you are scum.

You're wrong about that and conf. biased, which shows through you refusing to consider anything I'm saying.

If you think I'm town, you are really showing it badly because you trust your town reads.

Wrong. Just because I think you're town doesn't mean that I trust your reads to be right. If I was null on IA, maybe, but I have a strong scum read on them, and you saying they're town for meta reasons does not mean squat in that regard.

@mod: VC 1.12 and 1.13 incorrectly has Bulbazak voting IA - he changed his vote to Maruchan/bc.

I changed it back. The VC is correct. IA has 3 votes. Beast now has 2 with Morph's vote.

Also lots of support for Bulbazak makes me go hmmm Still tons of resistance to zzzx/maruchan/bc lynch. Please someone tell me this is ringing alarm bells. Every counterwagon to ZZZX has taken off like a rocket and no one wants to lynch ZZZX.

Also, lots of resistance to the IA wagon. Just saying.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, it's not like we're playing this on the internet, where Wikipedia is a thing.

I don't understand how this is relevant? I mean, the game can't be broken by flavor, and just because you think a particular character could be a particular role doesn't mean they are at all.. it's just guessing, just like any speculation the scumteam would be doing. I don't particularly give a crap about the flavor, and tbh, I don't really think IA does either. But you're taking the bait and trying to look townie by opposing something that site meta would normally deem "anti-town" when it really isn't. Why do you think he's been calling you opportunistic this entire time?

Flavor claims can lead scum in the right direction. And it's not a matter of me trying to look townie. I have a history of opposing any and all mass claims. I hate them and think they are extremely anti-town. And that's not why IA is accusing me of being opportunistic. This is:

if memory serves right, he was on all the leading wagons. the only exception was the wagon on us, in which he was the first vote. his votes are usually just cast, not explained nor discussed. and I just can't seem to remember his content in this game. at least we have reasons to not be posting much content..

Which is false:

Here are your accusations that I proved wrong:
1.) I was on all the leading wagons. Wrong! During the leading wagons early d1 (KA & ZZZX) I was voting Varsoon. I was the one who essentially started the wagons on Mirhawk and IA. If anything, you might have a point on Maruchan, but I was not on that one very long before switching back to IA, and 1 out of like 5 is a very bad reason to say that I was on every leading wagon.
2.) Every vote is a naked vote. Wrong! Most of my votes had some reasoning or stimulus attached to them.
3.) I did not explain my votes. Wrong! I explained why I was voting every single person. Maruchan was probably the weakest explanation, but even then, there was reasoning given and it wasn't that large of a leap to figure out why I was on the wagon.
4.) I never discussed my votes. Wrong! I discussed my Varsoon vote with Morph. I discussed my Mirhawk and IA votes excessively with ETL. Again, the only one not really discussed was Maruchan, and that was because the vote wasn't on there for very long.

So you raised 4 points against me to call me opportunistic scum, and 4 out of 4 points were wrong. Now are you going to continue spewing BS at me or are you going to sit down and take your lynch like a man?

So ETL, in all your experience with Guyett, did he ever just pull stuff out of his anus like that as town?

[Bulbazak]

Hey Morph! Vote IA. Please and thank you.

[Bulbazak]

shit guys, there's NO FUCKING TIME

if it wasn't clear enough, we are a fucking flavor cop. I hereby demand to be docced tonight

now there is FIVE HOURS TO DEADLINE SO PLEAAASSEEE can people vote bulba

Yeah, I don't think so Mr. I Just saw a rolecop fake flavor cop in my mini-theme game. If you were a flavor cop and that was indicative of alignment, THERE WOULD BE NO FREAKING WAY THAT YOU WOULD BE TRYING TO GET A MASS FLAVOR CLAIM. You'd just cop them at night and lay low. This is a fake claim.

I wanted to lynch them way before they claimed flavor cop. I know that town flavor cops are definitely possible in theme games, but why would a flavor cop want a mass flavor claim when they should easily know from experience that flavor is completely independent of alignment, and the mod is known for having their games not be breakable by flavor. Guyett was scum in Dark Age of the Law, a Nati designed game even though SSK is the person who modded it. Do you know what the scum fakeclaims were in that game?

The exact same things as their real roles.

This guy gets it.

Claim: Luke fon Fabre from Tales of the Abyss. I'm a Gullible Hero. And no, I'm not going to tell you what that does, because I want to still be of some use tonight. And again, I have mod confirmed information regarding claims that can actually catch scum fake claiming.

[Bulbazak]

...

You know what, screw it! Keep scum alive because "herp a derp, he claimed a role that doesn't make sense and one that one of those heads have seen fake claimed before". I bet it doesn't even matter that Guyett, who is supposedly reading me as scum, just addressed me as if I'm town. Heck, you can keep him alive to investigate me. If he's town, he learns jack squat, and if he's scum, he'll essentially know what I am and will know how to move forward. I don't care anymore.

Unvote

Vote Beastcharizard

Screw you all!

[Bulbazak]

I bet it doesn't even matter that Guyett, who is supposedly reading me as scum, just addressed me as if I'm town.

wut?

How did I address you as if you were town???

THERE WOULD BE NO FREAKING WAY THAT YOU WOULD BE TRYING TO GET A MASS FLAVOR CLAIM.

You seem to be forgetting the I, Guyett, am in this hydra....

[Bulbazak]

partial claim.. check

There's a good reason for that.

mod confirmed 'info'.... check
can catch scum fake claiming... check

I know, it's not like a said it before:

All flavor claims should come with a game reference. I have information that can help root out fake claims.

Meanwhile, you have given no indication prior that you are a flavor cop, and all your actions don't make sense coming from that conclusion.

[Bulbazak]

Ok. Here's another one:

/confirm

I have no other opinion.

[Bulbazak]

I was crumbing my role: Gullible Hero.

[Bulbazak]

It's a pretty brilliant crumb, but I also seem to suck at crumbing. And if I told you what it did, it would ruin its effectiveness (or not, I haven't decided yet. It's pretty bastard.). I just want to have 1 night to try to use it before I get lynched. After that, I won't care so much.

[Bulbazak]

I actually feel a lot better about a BC lynch now. This talk was good.

[Bulbazak]

Switch to BC. I'm sure ETL would switch to her preferred lynch.

[Bulbazak]

I'll wait for IA and bulba to report, but my inclination at the moment is to vote Oversoul.

I was targeted, and given the result, I can say for sure that IA is town.

[Bulbazak]

I'll wait for IA and bulba to report, but my inclination at the moment is to vote Oversoul.

I was targeted, and given the result, I can say for sure that IA is town.

We visited you but got no result. Could you clarify your name and the name of your role? You dont need to go into details on what the role does

I told you that would happen:

You know what, screw it! Keep scum alive because "herp a derp, he claimed a role that doesn't make sense and one that one of those heads have seen fake claimed before". I bet it doesn't even matter that Guyett, who is supposedly reading me as scum, just addressed me as if I'm town. Heck, you can keep him alive to investigate me.

If he's town, he learns jack squat, and if he's scum, he'll essentially know what I am and will know how to move forward.

I don't care anymore.

This is not going to make sense unless I full claim:

I started the game out as Luke fon Fabre, Gullible Hero, Neutral Vanilla. As long as I was neutral, I had no wincon. As long as I have no wincon, every action that targets me will fail. However, I will gain the alignment of the first action to target me the next day. At the beginning of the day, I got a message from Nati saying that I was now a VT. IA targeted me last night, and seeing as how I am now town, that means that they are also town.

As for the claim information, I want to continue to hold onto that, as that might still come in handy.

IA I think blue colour stands always for 3rd party. Green is for town and thus red has to be for scum.

Yellow is neutral, just so ya know.

[Bulbazak]

What does "if he's scum, he'll essentially know what I am and will know how to move forward" mean exactly?

It means that I would join his team and then he'd have to figure out how to proceed through the day.

What happens if both town and scum target you?

Then I'd imagine I'd be recruited by whoever targets me first. Regardless, all the actions would fail to go through, since I don't get my new wincon until the start of the next day.

Maybe Bulba is some kind of an Ascetic?

Nope. IA could totally get a result tonight, although that'd be a waste of time.

I personally don't like Bulba's claim. I am searching right now for a role like this and I can't seem to find any.

You're playing in a bastard game dearie. Nati's making most of these roles up.

It doesn't make sense for Bulba to claim. I don't really get it. IA got no result and it could be easily explained by a roleblocker blocking him. I just don't see a reason for Bulba to give his claim.

I know town targeted me last night. IA claimed that he targeted me and got nothing. Knowing I'm town, I felt it was best for full disclosure so that I could confirm IA as town and decrease the pool of possible scum via PoE. How does that series of events not make sense?

I don't know if he'd be told who targeted him as that would be almost like a cop but we had claimed to have targeted him in the thread so he thinks we're town.

I'm only told my new alignment. I had no idea who targeted me.

@Luke, did you get a haircut as a part of your new role?

Nati didn't give me a new picture as part of my new role PM.

Also, I just submitted my request to talk to ETL tonight so I will let you all know how that goes, assuming I survive.

Why would you want to talk to ETL? And if she somehow gets control of your second vote, why would you want to give your vote to a SK?

Gameplay is coming off like new town who signed up for a game that is beyond his abilities atm. Rubicon's reaction surrounding my claim seems off in the same way as his reaction to ETL yesterday.

Vote Rubicon

[Bulbazak]

Wait I forgot BC died and is eligible too! I could pick him instead, but I feel ETL and Beli are strong scumhunters

But the question remains: How would you know that they would want to help you find scum? They're a dead SK. There's not a lot of incentive there.

[Bulbazak]

It means that I would join his team and then he'd have to figure out how to proceed through the day.

Would scum-him be told that you'd joined his team?

I'd imagine there'd be some sort of message in the QT. If not, then they'd definitely find out the next night.

Gameplay is coming off like new town who signed up for a game that is beyond his abilities atm. Rubicon's reaction surrounding my claim seems off in the same way as his reaction to ETL yesterday.

In what way?

Your posts seem to be stretching for reasons to suspect people, as if you're finding any reason you can to suspect them, rather than trying to figure out their motivation and alignment. You did this with ETL by just throwing out that you thought they were making up reads and then not providing examples. You did this with Maru with what looked like a push to either PL for not reading his role PM or asking for a modkill. And you've been doing it to me this day phase by feeling out other's opinions on my claim, as if you were trying to see how much support you'd have for a Bulba lynch. It doesn't look like scumhunting more than just trying to get lynches off the ground.

I'm really miffed that you guys backed off of Bulba yesterday based on him crumbling a role, refusing to claim it AT ALL, and getting the alignment of town wrong. This is a fucking role-madness bastard game, if someone's at L-1, they fucking fullclaim and you don't leave based on wink-nudges.

Someone's ticked that they didn't get to me first.

[Bulbazak]

The reasoning behind your town-read on Interdimensional Arsehole is fundamentally flawed: Flavor cop would resolve last in NAR, therefore if any other player targeted you during the night, Interdimensional Arsehole can still be scum.

Does Nati use NAR to resolve night actions? I just thought it came down to who sent in an action first if there was a conflict and all other actions took place at the same time.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak: Mad because you should have been lynched for a scummy non-claim yes. There isn't much to do about it now though.

Well, I was trying my best not to die without a win con (i.e. automatically lose). If I was with town or scum, I wouldn't have been panicking as much. And regardless, my lynch wouldn't have netted anything, meaning it was still a mislynch. I also didn't want to fullclaim, as I recognized that it might lead to my death even quicker, and it might not net me the result I wanted, which was being targeted at night.

@Mod: I will be V/LA until July 7. I have family coming over (which I'm not really looking forward to), and a majority of my time is going to be devoted to entertaining them. Plus, this is the July 4 weekend, so I don't know how often I will be available.

P-edit: If I still had no wincon and scum won the game, I would have lost. To put this in perspective, if I was in Mylo or Lylo, I'd refuse to lynch. I'd also have either claimed at that point or told scum to target me during the night for an instant win.

[Bulbazak]

-Gameplay states that if Bulba dies and flips town that confirms IA as town.
I can think of no reason for it to not be true. I'm not advocating killing bulba to prove it, but it bears keeping in mind.

And yet, that is exactly what you were doing.

I find it decidedly odd that Bulbazak claims to know what happens to his character in the case of him being targeted by multiple night actions.

I guessed. I have no idea how Nati would decide what would happen in the event of my being targeted multiple times, and I didn't care enough to ask him. I was just concerned about being targeted.

The way I see it is that I kinda think Bulba's scum, but if he isn't that means he's not lying about his role which instantly confirms IA as town.

Why do you think I'd lie about this role, period? Ask anyone who has played scum with me, I'm not very creative when it comes to creating fake claims as scum. Heck, in the Marvel mini, I went with a bland VT claim for a Thor fake claim, rather than something more creative, like Vengeful Townie. There is no way I'd be able to fake something this ludicrous.

Well, I was trying my best not to die without a win con (i.e. automatically lose). If I was with town or scum, I wouldn't have been panicking as much. And regardless, my lynch wouldn't have netted anything, meaning it was still a mislynch. I also didn't want to fullclaim, as I recognized that it might lead to my death even quicker, and it might not net me the result I wanted, which was being targeted at night.

Don't get me wrong, for you personality if that's your actual role, you did what you should have done. It's not what the town as a whole should have done.

Ok, it would have still resulted in a mislynch, and a lynch that would have led to zero information (seeing as how I'd flip Neutral Vanilla). What, then, was the point about complaining about town not lynching the obvious mislynch?

In the game we played together, I took an intentional backseat as a tactic for Nacho and me to develop reads because it's very much not my usual style as a hydra.

You took a backseat to Cabd when you played as this hydra in Achievement Unlocked. You were scum in that game.

Still think his claim was over explained though so I'm staying on him.

How do you think it was overexplained? I thought I explained just the right amount considering the confusion I knew would emerge concerning night actions. I explained my role thoroughly. Was there something that I should have left out?

Unvote

Vote Shadoweh

Rubicon gets a pass for now. Given his questioning, it makes sense that he targeted me and was feeling out my role and trying to understand it. Compare that to Mirhawk, who isn't questioning me concerning the role and trying to understand it, but rather using it as a cheap reason to push a lynch. IA also is likely town due to the way they revealed that they targeted me and got no result. That was actually the reaction I was waiting for, and the fact that it came unprompted means that it is genuine. As for Shadoweh, I was not wild about her predecessor (I feel like I can read Varsoon rather well.), and I didn't like how opportunistic her votes looked d1. That could be explained, however, by her wanting to go to night quickly to use her PR. That doesn't explain her complaining about town not mislynching me yesterday, which looks a lot like scum being disappointed that they missed out on recruiting me during the night. There is no reason for town to be lamenting about that, especially given the information that had appeared in the thread around that time.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak
Why pretend to know what happens when two players target you if you didn't know? What was the point, it would have been easier and faster to just say you didn't know rather then make something up. This is pretty much the entirety of what bothers me about your claim, the only reason I can actually think of to lie about it is if you made the whole thing up.

Show me where I was pretending to know what happened when targeted by multiple players.

The reasoning behind your town-read on Interdimensional Arsehole is fundamentally flawed: Flavor cop would resolve last in NAR, therefore if any other player targeted you during the night, Interdimensional Arsehole can still be scum.

Does Nati use NAR to resolve night actions? I just thought it came down to who sent in an action first if there was a conflict and all other actions took place at the same time.

I think this showed that I obviously had no clue how Nati would resolve me being targeted by multiple players.

I'm curious as to what you thought I meant by overexplaining.

I have no idea. Hence why I asked you what you meant.

I made it pretty clear that I was referring to the fact that you knew too much about how your role worked, just because you've hand waved it away by saying you didn't mean it doesn't mean you didn't say it.

Here's what I said about my role:

I started the game out as Luke fon Fabre, Gullible Hero, Neutral Vanilla. As long as I was neutral, I had no wincon. As long as I have no wincon, every action that targets me will fail. However, I will gain the alignment of the first action to target me the next day. At the beginning of the day, I got a message from Nati saying that I was now a VT.

Where am I overexplaining?

I should also mention that I don't find you not being scum because you're not creative enough to invent that fakeclaim to be a very compelling argument.

This is a very simple meta argument. Go to my wiki, look up my scum games, and see how many times I fake claim something other than VT. What were the circumstances? How likely am I to come up with a fakeclaim like "Neutral Vanilla that becomes the alignment of what targets it" as scum? I can tell you that you will find zero instances of me fakeclaiming something that crazy as scum. Not only is it not part of my playstyle, it's not part of my personality, which means it's not something that will ever change. So even if you think I'm scum, the idea of me faking the Neutral Vanilla claim should not even enter into the equation. Ergo, calling me scum due to the claim is not only a faulty premise, but a cheap means of pushing a lynch. Now if you think that I'm scum, because scum got to me first, then by all means, make that case, but so far, that is not what you're pushing here.

[Bulbazak]

Then I'd imagine I'd be recruited by whoever targets me first. Regardless, all the actions would fail to go through, since I don't get my new wincon until the start of the next day.

This is what I'm referring to, it feels overexplained. Why would Nati need to tell you what happens when multiple players target you?

How is that overexplaining or me having too much knowledge? I think it's pretty clear that I had no idea what would happen if multiple players targeted me and that I was guessing, due to the phrase "I'd imagine". I never said Nati would need to tell me what would happen. I just speculated on what might happen, and I never felt the need to ask, as I didn't really care.

Also, what would have happened if LS had targeted you.

I'd imagine I'd become a SK, since that was their alignment (Look, there's that phrase again.).

I also don't see any reasons that this role would receive an immunity to night actions after the first, especially seeing as how that immunity could last an indeterminate number of nights.

I'm immune to night actions as long as my alignment was neutral, and seeing as how I don't get my new alignment until the beginning of the next day...

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

You're really stretching now.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Shadoweh

Bert's role is confirmed, btw.

[Bulbazak]

I never said it did, but I have a townread on him anyway, so yeah.

[Bulbazak]

I have a scumread on Shadoweh and townreads on Rubicon and TSO. I need to reread KA's and Oversoul's ISOs, as I got focused elsewhere and can't remember much about them.

[Bulbazak]

what exactly did Bulba claim?

Neutral Vanilla. My alignment changed to that of whoever targeted me during the night. I became town d2. That's actually most of that day's discussion.

[Bulbazak]

Rubicon, if you're so sure I'm scum, why haven't you voted me?

Look, there can only be 3 scenarios:

1.) I'm scum, and this is Mylo. In this case, lynching me does not end the game and nabs you another scum.
2.) I'm not scum, and this is Mylo. I find this very unlikely, but it needs to be considered anyway.
3.) I'm not scum, and there is only 1 scum left. In this case, lynching me would not be an automatic loss and eliminates the chance that I could be a distraction in Lylo.

Given all this, it would seem that the best move would be to lynch me, if for no other reason than to curb any future paranoia. If that is the case, then why aren't you voting me, as it should be a safe vote regardless? If I am scum, who is my partner? Who is scum if I'm not?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why do you consider 2 more unlikely than 1 from your point of view, seeing as you claim to know your own alignment at this point?

Same reason you do. Typical mod meta takes traitors and alignment changes into account when determining the number of scum in the game, meaning it's more likely 2 scum than 3. However, there are mods that tend to buck such tradition (I'm one of those that would at least consider it.). Seeing as I don't know how Nati develops his games, and seeing as how this is a bastard game, I have to at least consider the possibility that scum started with 3 members instead of 2. It's one of the reasons why I'm reviewing ISOs atm, instead of just vote parking on Shadoweh.

Who is scum if I'm not?

If you're town, you should be answering this question for me. Find scum and convince me to vote them and not you.

Nope. This question is very much concerned with your mind set and thought process. Surely you've already considered this. If I am town, who is scum?

[Bulbazak]

Did you seriously just say

no

to finding scum?

No. I said I'm not answering that question when the burden of proof lies on you. It's a very simple question: Who is scum if I'm town? As for who I think is scum, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, let me save you some time. Mass claim will confirm me as town. You claimed a scum role D1. If you are going to pretend to be town, either defend yourself or analyze the other players. Don't waste my time.

Seriously Rubi, it's a very simple question. I'm not trying to trick you. I'm not trying to paint you as scum. I assume that you've analyzed things enough to have come to some sort of conclusion. Therefore, if I am scum, who is my partner? If I am town, who is scum? This is not a hard question.

Bulba, why do you consider 2 more unlikely than 1 from your point of view, seeing as you claim to know your own alignment at this point?

Same reason you do.

Let me rephrase: Why do you consider something highly unlikely less possible than something that should be confirmed false if you area town?

Because it was a hypothetical to Rubi. To him, there should have been only 3 possibilities, with only 1 being insta-lose (but is the less likely). My point was that I should be a safe vote from his perspective, yet he wasn't voting me. I wanted to know why.

[Bulbazak]

Did Bulbazak claim survivor, or does he just "know" that?

I was a Neutral Vanilla d1 who was targeted during the night and became town. The color for Neutral was yellow.

Also, if we're going to claim, we should full claim.

[Bulbazak]

So uh why haven't you voted Bulb yet?

I asked the same thing and gave a breakdown of why it should be a safe vote from his perspective. I even asked who my partner would be if I was scum and who scum would be if I was town. I have yet to get a response.

Also what's this about confirming with the mod that it's MYLO?

Shadoweh is trying to look protown by asking the mod something that he would never answer.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I finished my ISO readthroughs. I didn't even have to go through the complete ISO to see that KA and Oversoul are town. KA made a pretty huge townslip in regard to the town flavor before that was revealed to be true. Oversoul has been genuinely scumhunting, and his interactions with SSK don't make sense coming from scum. He shows some paranoia regarding that slot during d2, which I would find unlikely coming from SSK's partner.

My Krew read is fairly null, as a review of the ISO revealed that there wasn't as much basis to my TSO townread as I thought, given the starkness of it all. I want to develop this read live if I can.

Shadoweh is a scumread. I was scumreading Varsoon very early in the game based on similar play to the Chosen game we were both in where he was scum. His reaction was to accuse me of being scum and then continued to lurk. I'm fairly good at reading Varsoon, and this was his scumplay. Upon Shadoweh replacing in, he proceeds to sheep ETL and places an opportunistic vote on me, all while talking about how he's not reading the game. He then lurks through the rest of the day and enters d2 complaining about the d1 lynch. He also takes the time to say how I should have been PL'd d1 for my vague claim. This coming after I had already full claimed on d2 and revealed that I had been targeted by town and had changed alignment. This looks like butthurt scum to me, as town with such a view would have waited until post game to mention that, instead of right after the reveal that such an action would have led to a mislynch anyway. That's essentially saying "We should not have mislynched X and should have instead PL'd the guy with the sloppy half claim, even though recent events have revealed that would have been a mislynch as well and would not have nabbed us scum." Seriously, what sort of town makes that a big deal? We then get a whole lot of nothing d2. D3 is interesting, because while Shadoweh was the lead vote on SSK, she votes him after hardly mentioning him at all prior, and when she did, he was a town read. She uses a single post from d2 as her case, but she did not comment on that quote at all when it was made, nor did she ask him about how it related to Rubicon (her main point) when Rubicon claimed to have targeted me. Like Rubicon, I find the ease at which the SSK lynch went through suspicious, especially since it ended up that SSK had connected himself to Morph, the strongest player slot in the game, making them lovers. Bussing SSK to kill the strongest player in the game plus nab towncred would be a terrific move for scum. Add to this how Shadoweh is now claiming ignorance to how Morph could have died (being made a lover), even though during d3 he made a point of saying he was not a succubus (Morph was actively looking for a succubus, or the person who made them a lover, probably to stop from lynching them. Btw, the succubus, or SSK, never claimed, or said anything.), and given that SSK flipped as Corrupted Seductress and then Morph committed suicide, I find the claim that he couldn't figure out what happened unlikely.

Vote Shadoweh

P-edit: And what response was that?

[Bulbazak]

Speaking of kill flavors, did Bulba just not notice the fact that it was specifically stated in his recruitment PM that his would give him away?

Yeah, I missed it. Otherwise, I would have let Oversoul perform the kill. I knew it was just a matter of time at that point. I actually thought Cabd would be the one to figure it out, but they were too preoccupied with being made lovers. Rubicon took me by surprise, and in hindsight, we probably should have taken care of the devil we didn't know, rather than the one we did.

And seriously, I'm not that good of a fakeclaimer as scum. When I said repeatedly that my role was real, you should have believed it. It was just the matter of who got to me first that you had to doubt.

And I blame scum selecting me on ETL. They caused me to partially out on d1. Otherwise, scum would have left me alone, since they'd have no reason to be paranoid of me and roleblock me.