Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[gossamer wings]

MAFIA SRZ BZNZ

VOTE: cutty shark

Also, I tried to hunt down an image with a sleeve with town written on it and the only thing I could find that was close was a tattoo sleeve with an angel on it. So boo.

Anyway I'll town harder than town's town later, but I won't do much with this game before tomorrow or friday I'm sure. Falcon might be around and he's actually read for some reads. I think he said that he has Nashville Dreams as town because they saw the same thing he saw in Bork's play that he liked and he has Cutty Shark as town. Yes, I'm voting a town read dundundun. (My only thing about Nashville is

the post restriction

the post where they said everyone needed to post ASAP. I'm not sure why that pinged and it's probably stupid, but it did. Falcon left me a couple other thoughts but that would require logging out of here and logging in as Tammy and then back again and I'm feeling lazy as hell and going to take a nap, so.

Oh hey because I recognized the lyrics for one song:



Oh also, mr and mrs gonad stick - I realize you were joking with the double voter thing but what prompted those two particular votes?

smooches, laters, and hopefully after I've had sleep and not so damn loopy.

Also I hope when we return we have an avatar!

[gossamer wings]

Or, Me (not ceph) being a complete ass again, your pick, Tammy

I wasn't upset you voted us. I was more interested in the choice of voting both Mr Ree and us together. It seemed like an odd combination.

[gossamer wings]

@ TheFonz, what do you mean by "soft targets" specifically? Who were those targets and why?

[gossamer wings]

*offended*

...is it that I'm not doing anything, that I haven't read the thread, or that I'm being really self-absorbed right now?

[gossamer wings]

This is my town tone.

I mean did you read my opening post? I don't get any more town tone than that post.

[gossamer wings]

I mean I practiced and everything! I read through several town games just so I'd get it right. I'm sure that's my town tone. :/

[gossamer wings]

People who know how to read Tammy by Tone:

Nashville Dreams

[gossamer wings]

I was obviously scum there! I can't believe I won that game. Alignment fatigue sucks.

Doesn't change the fact this is me as town and my town tone.

[gossamer wings]

Please say you're going to place it on me!

I'd be super highly amused that someone who claims to be awesome at reading me can't detect a super obvious town tammy opening.

[gossamer wings]

I wasn't done dancing.

but sure what up mara.

[gossamer wings]

mara i'm not gonna be around forever

i'm near crash zone

[gossamer wings]

Oh I thought that was directed at your other head.

Are you asking why I was wondering why you voted for me and Mr. Ree? Well it seemed like an odd fake role, and an odd pairing. I'd have thought if you were going to vote me in the first post along with someone else you play with it would be the Borkhydra or The Fonz. Was wondering why you made that particular choice.

I have no thoughts on scum so far. I have no thoughts on town so far either. I've barely read. Bork does look town though from skimming. Nashville is amusing me. I thought I made it clear in my first post I wouldn't actually be doing anything with this until tomorrow.

[gossamer wings]

Falcon has a question to me about the Fonz but it's something I need to go back to swag town to look at. Not doing that or actually reading what he wanted me to look at in this game in a way I can process until tomorrow.

Bork does look different from Tales of, and Falcon's message to me last night was that he thinks Bork is town.

Falcon has hydrad with FT and knows 5-off from another site? where the three of them play so he feels like he'll be able to get a read on them.

Nashville might be town, Falcon likes them for town for seeing the same thing in Bork that he saw. Also, I kinda think Nashville proclaiming to be an expert at reading me and declaring this is not my town tone had a hint of pride to it. They're probably town, I kinda think they'd not go "I CAN READ YOU I'M AWESOME AT IT" and proceed to claim this isn't my town tone if they were scum and knew I was town. It feels genuine anyway.

That's all I got.

[gossamer wings]

will my tone turn town if i vote the nugget?

[gossamer wings]

I mean I suppose they could be trying to setup a fake reaction test, or try to annoy me to attempt a distraction, but it doesn't feel that way.

[gossamer wings]

will my tone turn town if i vote the nugget?

Are you a third party?

You don't like feel town, but you don't really feel scum either. It's weird.

You can buy a diamond ring
And slip it on my hand
Put me on a big ol' plane
And fly me to a foreign land
Show me rows of fancy clothes
Saying, "Honey you can take your pick!"
Well, that would be mighty kind
But it ain't gonna do the trick

Nope just plain ole town!

Never fear this just means your training in the many shades of Tammy's Town Tone (TM) is not complete.

[gossamer wings]

Pretty sure their phone number is 867-5309. I got it from a bathroom wall it must be legit.

There can we be done with this riveting series of posts? It's not even fun spam.

~~~

Bork - we are town! I thought it was obvious I'm more amused about the opening thing. I said that I read a bunch of town openings and practiced to get it right. Which I certainly didn't do, but I'm pretty much having fun with it.

[gossamer wings]

Well considering I'm town, so this is my town tone, I'm amused at being told it's not. But they are a secret hydra, and the head that's talking to me is someone I doubt I've played with often if at all, and I'm not really concerned. Even if I don't come across super town right now, it will become obvious soon enough and I don't really detect maliciousness from their interaction with me, so I just feel super light and it's all good.

[gossamer wings]

So... F-16, we gonna work together? I'm thinking Baboon, Fonz, and I have no creativity. Thoughts?

Why those three?

[gossamer wings]

So... F-16, we gonna work together? I'm thinking Baboon, Fonz, and I have no creativity. Thoughts?

I'm sure F-16 will want to work with you. I imagine he'll start jumping in in the next day or two.

[gossamer wings]

Or you know right now.

[gossamer wings]

I am not sure on I have no creativity yet. Tammy had baboon as weakly town and I kind of agree. I like the way they were trying to work with her on scumreads. Not sure on Fonz, I want him to respond to my question to him.

[gossamer wings]

I'm going to make a bet. And I bet there is scum in your neighborhood.

[gossamer wings]

I'm going to make a bet. And I bet there is scum in your neighborhood.

Dear god no

I will be poised and try not to throw a fit if that's what you're dear god noing.

[gossamer wings]

Actually with FT being pretty open and wanting to work with Falcon, it doesn't seem like the neighborhood is going to be hush hush and secretive, which has been my problem with the last two games with neighborhoods.

[gossamer wings]

I dunno, man. I'm drunk as fuck.

I didn't see a point to keeping the "intern PM" secret. We know -- or at least one of us was told -- that someone in the PM is scum. So keeping it secret gives the scum an information advantage, as far as I'm concerned. We can probably assume anything said there is going to be told to the mafia in their PM, so keeping just hurts town, if anything. At least that's my view.

What do you mean one of you were told there is scum in there? Do you know that for sure?

[gossamer wings]

I'm going to make a bet. And I bet there is scum in your neighborhood.

Dear god no

I will be poised and try not to throw a fit if that's what you're dear god noing.

I was dear god noing the notion that PoEing a neighborhood is a legitimate scumhunting tactic.

I just feel sure there's scum there, but if they don't even know who is in their neighborhood then well

[gossamer wings]

So then you can counter my bet that there's scum in there!

[gossamer wings]

I think both of us is in here.

It's been Tammy making the bet that there's scum in the neighborhood though.

[gossamer wings]

Also, why not out everyone in the neighborhood? If you know for sure that scum are in there, then they already know and you are only hiding it from the town.

104, 150, 155, 178 were me. All other posts were Tammy.

[gossamer wings]

I'm going to sleep. I'll get back to this tomorrow.

(Tammy)

[gossamer wings]

@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.

~ F-16 (I'll sign my posts if we're both online to avoid confusion)

[gossamer wings]

Well considering I'm town, so this is my town tone, I'm amused at being told it's not. But they are a secret hydra, and the head that's talking to me is someone I doubt I've played with often if at all, and I'm not really concerned. Even if I don't come across super town right now, it will become obvious soon enough and I don't really detect maliciousness from their interaction with me, so I just feel super light and it's all good.

So I'll settle for one day to belive in you
Tell me, tell me, tell me lies
Tell me lies
Tell me sweet little lies
(Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies)

I'm scum?

[gossamer wings]

Falcon I think we need to change our avatar. I think it's interfering with my tone and is sending mixed signals.

[gossamer wings]

Shake your groove thing
shake your groove thing
yeah yeah

[gossamer wings]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

I don't have a read on them yet. Still thinking about it.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Shake your groove thing
shake your groove thing
yeah yeah

wtf

sorry my bad

[gossamer wings]

@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.

~ F-16 (I'll sign my posts if we're both online to avoid confusion)

F-16, what's the scum benefit to that sort of gambit? Town-cred? You know me well enough to know that I don't care about town-cred as either town or mafia, so there's certainly no personal motivation if that's the case.

To screw with people's heads. As town, I can see you doing it to get reads. I'm not sure which it is yet. Or it could be that bastard element mentioned in the signups.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Hey Nashville

Spoiler: secret just for you

I'M TOWN!!!

[gossamer wings]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

I don't have a read on them yet. Still thinking about it.
~ F-16

Consider: in the past few pages, they've just summarized shit and threatened me.

I haven't played with either head a lot but I've skimmed a game of ika's and played once with beast as scum. If I recall correctly, ika was critisized for his playstyle a lot in that game. So, I'm trying to figure out if it is just his playstyle.

@ I have no creativity, no 5-Off is not an alt, but I play with him and FT offsite.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Shake your groove thing
shake your groove thing
yeah yeah

wtf

sorry my bad

We're in the middle of actually relevant discussion and you come in here with this shit
seriously wtf

I already told you there's scum in the neighborhood. Just adding some spice.

[gossamer wings]

I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?

I don't have a read on them yet. Still thinking about it.
~ F-16

Consider: in the past few pages, they've just summarized shit and threatened me.

I haven't played with either head a lot but I've skimmed a game of ika's and played once with beast as scum. If I recall correctly, ika was critisized for his playstyle a lot in that game. So, I'm trying to figure out if it is just his playstyle.

@ I have no creativity, no 5-Off is not an alt, but I play with him and FT offsite.
~ F-16

This is the one.

[gossamer wings]

Would like Bork's thoughts on I have no creativity.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Would like Bork's thoughts on I have no creativity.
~ F-16

Town.

Can you elaborate?
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Shake your groove thing
shake your groove thing
yeah yeah

wtf

sorry my bad

We're in the middle of actually relevant discussion and you come in here with this shit
seriously wtf

I already told you there's scum in the neighborhood. Just adding some spice.

So all you're contributed to this discussion is a) useless distracting noise and b) more useless noise

And I've roped you into the silliness. Don't you feel special? Do you feel like you're contributing a lot by getting after me for posting a few song lyrics while reading along and trying to make sense of things?

Relax shake it out man. You don't have to be so serious all the time. But you do realize it would have stopped at me just posting some random lyrics, you engaged with it and made it a thing.

[gossamer wings]

I'm going to guess that is the sleepy head though. Pretty sure Bork is a bit more laid back and has experience with my posting music randomly from time to time.

[gossamer wings]

Don't bother you'll probably just annoy me with some super important condescension.

I'd rather not thanks.

[gossamer wings]

Then you can doubly save whatever you were going to say!

[gossamer wings]

Seriously don't respond. I'm already annoyed with you and all you will do is annoy me further and I'd rather be able to work with your hydra.

[gossamer wings]

Then you can doubly save whatever you were going to say!

You don't want my serious game relevant non condescending answer?
:/

No I don't. you decided to make a deal about me posting lyrics to a song for fun in the middle of me trying to figure out what was going on. You continued to make it bigger and call my supposition that there is scum in that neighborhood pointless noise or whatever. I believe there is a very high chance scum is in that neighborhood, that's not pointless or noise. But I can totally tell from the tone of your interaction with me that your shirt was starched too much today and it's not something I want to continue talking about.

[gossamer wings]

Seriously don't respond. I'm already annoyed with you and all you will do is annoy me further and I'd rather be able to work with your hydra.

Ugh.

this is tammy or Falcon?

I'd looooooove for you to call this is non town tammy tone.

[gossamer wings]

Yeah I'm going to hold off till tomorrow

Just save it. I'm serious. I'd rather be able to work with your hydra this game and if it's going to be anything like your interaction with me tonight, it's going to make that near impossible.

So save it.

You're not going to change my play style. You're not going to make me feel shitty for sometimes posting music lyrics or pictures or videos in a game that represents how I'm feeling or a random thought. I'm not going to let you make me feel like shit about myself.

I'd rather be able to work with you and if you do anything like that, I won't be able to work with your hydra. If it bugs you that much we can avoid each other in games going forward, but we're here now, and I don't want this game to be made unpleasant.

[gossamer wings]

F-16, thoughts on Baboon?

This is Tammy but I'm still leaning town.

Did you take the info from off-5 at face value knowing that he has a tendency for gambiting?

[gossamer wings]

I haven't really processed what happened tonight though.

[gossamer wings]

Did you take the info from off-5 at face value knowing that he has a tendency for gambiting?

I wasn't sure if he was telling the truth. Why?

Falcon said that he wasn't sure why you were taking him at face value after having just played a game with him where he gambitted and fake-claimed extensively.

My concern is that you took it as face value because you believed he was telling the truth. A couple years ago in Abarat II, MagnaofIllusion fake claimed informed townie and claimed that one of three people were scum. He had just picked three players he particularly didn't like playing with, but one of those slots was actually mafia, and while other people were incredulous because the claim seemed like a lie and too convenient, the scum in that group took it seriously. To him, he was telling the truth because he was, in fact, mafia.

So if you know that 5-off is a fake claimer and gambitter, when he said the mod informed him that there was scum in the neighborhood, taking it as face value could be an indicator of your alignment as I would think you would be more likely to believe he was lying if you didn't know that he was technically telling the truth.

Without being in the neighborhood and seeing how6 the reactions came in, I can't judge how that played out for myself, but it was Falcon's concern regarding it.

~~~~~

In other news: I should actually read the game tonight unless I fall asleep :/

[gossamer wings]

@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.

~ F-16 (I'll sign my posts if we're both online to avoid confusion)

F-16, what's the scum benefit to that sort of gambit? Town-cred? You know me well enough to know that I don't care about town-cred as either town or mafia, so there's certainly no personal motivation if that's the case.

Tammy, your recent post made me think of this. I didn't realize this at the time, but from what you just said, F-16 was thinking 5-Off was gambiting as town. But 5-Off interprets F-16's speculation to mean F-16 suspects him. Which suggests 5-Off is reading F-16's post from a non-town perspective.

I'll probably let falcon actually rend to this cuz I don't fully understand it, but falcon didn't say what he thought 5-offs alignment was. He said that he has a history of gambiting as town, is pretty good as scum, and didn't understand why you seemed to take it at face value knowing he's a gambitter. He is also having trouble believing the mod gave him that info, unless it's the bastard element. He hasn't told me what he thinks either of you are though.

[gossamer wings]

gossamer wings(F-16_Fighting_Falcon+Tammy)
-the fact tammy is going on about how she must be town is irking me i know she does it anyway but it feels off

She usually does it with a certain tone as town Tammy and scum Tammy. It annoys a lot of people, but it's mostly how she goes about it she becomes transparent.

Also you are wrong with your hydra guess.

~*~M

This is true!

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, F-16, what do you make of the following:

and, as much as you are willing to push us for being the probable scum within the neighborhood, you very quickly back down from it, and decide to push someone who, generally is an easier target to get lynched.

I thought I had pushed I have no creativity prior to Baboon. So... I don't think I backed down from anything, did I? Which brings me to this:

also... the hidden omgus thing... it's legit, and the fact that you were scared to do a legit omgus, and tried to hide it with mashing us with fonz, a couple hours after I make it known that I think you have the potential to be scum is pretty amusing.

I'm scared? Or is that a narrative Baboon is building? I don't see how "fear" is read into my posts/behaviors? Is Baboon's narrative genuine or contrived? The argument that I'm afraid to OMGUS because I went after I have no creativity isn't very well thought out, right?

Also:

You question my 125 and you yourself, note that you havn't done much, whereas I have made my stances clear early game. Instead of asking people to work with me, I demand it to happen. I grab their attention and push the game forward, on my own voilition. You've done it as a reaction, and only as a reaction. lack of proactivity means a higher chance of you being scum.

Two things. First, I wasn't playing passively, or at least I thought I was active. Comparatively, I'm a lot more active than half the players in the game. I'm also not sure how "asking people to work with me" is passive or scummy? Second, is Baboon's analysis always this mechanical? The "I'm doing X, but you're not doing X, so you're probably scum" argument isn't very good.

Another thing I'll mostly let falcon talk with you about as I believe he'll want to interact with you to get a read on you, and I'll probably defer to him where you're concerned.

I think that some of the points brought against you aren't very strong; however what I am feeling stronger and stronger as I read is that baboon pride is town.

[gossamer wings]

All right I read the game! I'm so proud of myself.

I have some thoughts on the baboon/FT stuff but going to hold onto it. I'd rather let falcon interact with four trouble organically and get a read there while talking with him about it before I say anything. I do think that baboon pride is town though.

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

I still think cutey shark is town and Nashville dreams. I'm actually a little flattered that they really just want to NAIL DOWN MY ALIGNMENT. I'm rather self-absorbed, and like that they seem to have read me and picked up on certain tells about me. I said last night it felt a bit prideful that they think they've picked up some of my tells and are trying to apply it here. It's just something I think is more likely to come from town. Also I'm a tone reader, so it's kinda kindred. I'm still gonna have fun with them, I'd like to lock elbows, skip through the park and sing happy

country

pop songs.

Leaning town on creativity. I actually like fonz's argument. Also another person I'm going to laugh at calling me scum. Lighten up. I'm having fun.

I think that fonz probably cursed out nati if he drew scum after not playing so long as I know he wasn't entirely happy to draw it in swagtown. That doesn't mean a whole lot to his alignment but it might inform his tone. I still need to check out swagtown to answer falcons question though.

Will talk to falcon later to see where he wants to move our vote.

[gossamer wings]

Oh I get you guys' reasoning on Lisa, and she seems fine enough, but I'm tentative with neighborhood reads and want to see more.

[gossamer wings]

Oh yeah, could potentially join the nugget train. Yeah bleah. Want to wait for falcon to weigh in on ft though.

[gossamer wings]

You suck!

[gossamer wings]

Did you take the info from off-5 at face value knowing that he has a tendency for gambiting?

I wasn't sure if he was telling the truth. Why?

Falcon said that he wasn't sure why you were taking him at face value after having just played a game with him where he gambitted and fake-claimed extensively.

My concern is that you took it as face value because you believed he was telling the truth. A couple years ago in Abarat II, MagnaofIllusion fake claimed informed townie and claimed that one of three people were scum. He had just picked three players he particularly didn't like playing with, but one of those slots was actually mafia, and while other people were incredulous because the claim seemed like a lie and too convenient, the scum in that group took it seriously. To him, he was telling the truth because he was, in fact, mafia.

So if you know that 5-off is a fake claimer and gambitter, when he said the mod informed him that there was scum in the neighborhood, taking it as face value could be an indicator of your alignment as I would think you would be more likely to believe he was lying if you didn't know that he was technically telling the truth.

Without being in the neighborhood and seeing how6 the reactions came in, I can't judge how that played out for myself, but it was Falcon's concern regarding it.

~~~~~

In other news: I should actually read the game tonight unless I fall asleep :/

What wasn't mentioned is that in that game, FT was the one person who realized I was BSing with my fake claim. Having played with FT, I think he evaluates anything I say to determine if it could be a gambit before reacting. I could deduce that he's the cop and then gambit claim cop and he'd give me enough rope to get the reactions I need from other players. I don't think a game played a few years ago with players that have no connection to the ones playing this game is relevant.

It absolutely is relevant. It goes to mindset. It's not a lesson about particular players, it's a lesson about guilty mindsets. Scum tend to believe things like that because they're scum and when it could be about them they don't often betray the same amount of distrust as a town does in that situation.

Or me.

[gossamer wings]

Okay, that reasoning makes sense, so long as we agree that I screw with peoples heads regardless of my affiliation. xD

I want this explained.

vote 5-off

I fake-claim, lie, gambit, and manipulate people as all affiliations. As scum my goal is to get into the heads of all other players. As town my goal is to get into the head of the mafia, and as I result I couldn't care less about the rest of the town or how they perceive me. I don't play

with

the town, but rather

against

the mafia.

So you're a terrible mafia player. good to know.

[gossamer wings]

VOTE: 5-off

Policy.

[gossamer wings]

That doesn't seem to be his reaction to your "gambit". Or was it? He seems to have taken it at face value which was the whole point to the entire question and conversation.

[gossamer wings]

That doesn't seem to be his reaction to your "gambit". Or was it? He seems to have taken it at face value which was the whole point to the entire question and conversation.

Reading comprehension, am I right? As I said, when he thinks I'm gambiting he gives me rope. He caught my gambit immediately in the last game we played together but he went along with it.

yeah, I'll let falcon deal with you.

Yeah

[gossamer wings]

Sorry guys, death in the family. I'm going to focus on this when I can but I'm not really feeling the whole mafia thing atm.

If you guys know me, I'm normally better than this but I still need a day or two. Semi V/LA until Sunday-ish unless I need something to bury myself into before then.

*hug*

[gossamer wings]

Yes.

crap.

[gossamer wings]

thank you for your advice. I'll give it all the due respect it deserves.

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, F-16, what do you make of the following:

and, as much as you are willing to push us for being the probable scum within the neighborhood, you very quickly back down from it, and decide to push someone who, generally is an easier target to get lynched.

I thought I had pushed I have no creativity prior to Baboon. So... I don't think I backed down from anything, did I? Which brings me to this:

also... the hidden omgus thing... it's legit, and the fact that you were scared to do a legit omgus, and tried to hide it with mashing us with fonz, a couple hours after I make it known that I think you have the potential to be scum is pretty amusing.

I'm scared? Or is that a narrative Baboon is building? I don't see how "fear" is read into my posts/behaviors? Is Baboon's narrative genuine or contrived? The argument that I'm afraid to OMGUS because I went after I have no creativity isn't very well thought out, right?

Also:

You question my 125 and you yourself, note that you havn't done much, whereas I have made my stances clear early game. Instead of asking people to work with me, I demand it to happen. I grab their attention and push the game forward, on my own voilition. You've done it as a reaction, and only as a reaction. lack of proactivity means a higher chance of you being scum.

Two things. First, I wasn't playing passively, or at least I thought I was active. Comparatively, I'm a lot more active than half the players in the game. I'm also not sure how "asking people to work with me" is passive or scummy? Second, is Baboon's analysis always this mechanical? The "I'm doing X, but you're not doing X, so you're probably scum" argument isn't very good.

I don't agree with any of Baboon's accusations against you. But you've played with scum-Ceph in Tales. We even went over his meta in two other games. It doesn't feel like he is playing to his scum meta at all. I don't get the manipulative vibe he gives off when he is scum. What are your thoughts based on past experience? His play here doesn't feel anything like his early game play in Tales at all.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, I understand your concern but it's misplaced. If you think about it, I'd be much more distrustful of 5-off if I were mafia and he town (i.e. I wouldn't trust a word he says about claims/setup). But as town, I didn't really think about whether he was lying as town. I considered the possibility he was scum but that was the extent of my distrust. If you think about it, that's arguably a town-tell on my part.

Why would you be more distrustful of him as scum than town? Also, are you scumreading him now?
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

UNVOTE:

i need sleep.

[gossamer wings]

Nice to meet you. You should probably defer to F-16 first on all of your reads, he's pretty good.

This comment is rude and uncalled for. Tammy is one of the best players I've played with on this site and one of the few who can consistently read me correctly which is part of the reason I was really glad to get a chance to hydra with her. Please just stop it with the personal attacks.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

If I'm ignoring any questions, it's because I assumed Mara answered them.

Why are you voting 5-Off? Do you think he made up the info?

No, we are ignoring scum reads.

Please don't do this.

[gossamer wings]

What points do you not like?

As far as 5-off goes, he seemed surprised at the fact that ceph was treating our neighborhood as if we were masons for the time being, and assumed we had all the same infom if it was a gambit, it was a pretty damn fluid gambit that I think, even Cabd would appreciate. so.

I know you asked this question, but I'm not going to answer it right now. I want to let Falcon and FT talk so that he can get a read on him.

[gossamer wings]

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

I wouldn't have pointed out that game if I thought the take away was that Mara seemed remarkably different. On the contrary, I think she feels very similar. I think the way that she went after mollie is reminiscent to the way she's going after FourTrouble.

[gossamer wings]

It absolutely is relevant. It goes to mindset. It's not a lesson about particular players, it's a lesson about guilty mindsets. Scum tend to believe things like that because they're scum and when it could be about them they don't often betray the same amount of distrust as a town does in that situation.

This. Although 4T did state that he didn't remember who it was who had claimed knowledge of there being scum there. That might be enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. Baboon's posts read a lot more like I would expect town to react in that scenario: noticing the lack of said information in their own role PM, wondering if it were a reaction test etc. It seems to me, as a town neighbor in that situation, the possibility that one and only one it would at least look

kinda weird

to me.

Yeah, Falcon and I were talking about that last night. I thought it was weird that he didn't remember it was 5-off who made the claim and it bugged me because I thought since they play together off site it would be something he'd remember. However, Falcon said that 5-off uses a different user name at the other site, so it might not have registered and stuck immediately, which kind of makes our concern about him seeming to take it at face value knowing he's a gambitter a weaker point, but still bothers me due to the mindset issue.

[gossamer wings]

I am really losing track what you're trying to argue here, Anatole.

-b

I have a gut scum-read on baboon because a) ceph and mara aren't playing like town them I saw in timeshift and b) are pushing cases with logic that clearly isn't consistent with what probably all of us have seen on this site. Reactivity and passiveness do not make someone scum and in fact, the players in the hydra suggesting that exhibit those traits. It makes it feel really disingenuous that she is pushing those as scum traits.

That means more to me than any of the cases made against 4t because none are remotely convincing so I'm voting Baboon.

If everyone had the same ideas of what makes people town and scum, town would probably win more games than it does.

I have something else to say about this, but I'm holding on to that too!

[gossamer wings]

Yo Tammy
So I slept and thought it over and talked to bork and I think I was just heat of the moment super paranoia over reacting. Sorry that you thought it was a personal attack. Let's be friends again?
SleepyKrew

We now return to your regularly scheduled bork posts

<3

I could never stay mad at you Sleepy. Plus I'm sure I was being over sensitive myself. Lack of sleep makes me even more temperamental than I already am.

[gossamer wings]

Sorry guys been crazy busy. Will have time for this in the morning. Expect a blow your mind catch up post. Saving my vote till then as I can't find a vote count in the last few pages. If I was to place a random vote, it would be on Fonz as a welcome back how-do-you-do-vote.

do me a favor and hand me your vote.

I am sucking up to people I have experience with, don't you know?

in anycase, I never said I liked Fonz post, but I can defintely see where he is coming from, and it is something I can expect another person of relative experience of this game to get. Especially on this site. Lissa's post can be construed in many ways, and it's more about what's not there, than what is there.

Since when do you suck up to me Mara? Why not Bork? (but seriously, hey, long time no see)

Damn this game is moving fast. Back after work.

You're prettier!

and Bork has a wife.

I'd still like your vote, though. I don't even care if you're actually scum ATM, and if you are I might give you some town-cred for bussing anyhow.

I really liked these two posts. They're consistent with the type of tone I'd expect from town!Mara and less what I would expect from scum!Mara. I like more of their posts, but these two stick out to me as things I'm just not sure she'd do as scum.

The only caveat would be if this was a bus, but her behavior doesn't feel like a bus.

[gossamer wings]

If I'm ignoring any questions, it's because I assumed Mara answered them.

Why are you voting 5-Off? Do you think he made up the info?

No, we are ignoring scum reads.

Please don't do this.

why?

it's defintely preferable to the alternative of an actual 1v1 with FT and clogging up the game in noise over using that time to get other people to see eye to eye with me

pedit: pretty much!

I'm not saying you have to 1v1 him, but that kind of tactic really doesn't help evolve the gamestate. It just serves to irritate people. If he's town, he's going to get frustrated and think you're scum from it and probably not reassess. If he's scum, he's got a perfect thing to push you on.

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, Cutty, what do you guys make of Baboon's "certainty" that I'm scum? How does their degree of certainty square with their reasoning?

It doesn't bother me how certain they are. I'm not sure Mara puts herself out there in the way she has as scum. I think she comes across certain about her reads as scum, and right now I wish that Bert hadn't had that meltdown troll that got them immediately lynched so I'd have more experience with Mara!scum behavior, but I think as scum she does it a bit differently and doesn't put herself out there so much front and center.

I don't understand the second question.

[gossamer wings]

gossamer/Tammy's stuff about "this is town-Tammy" is giving me a bit of an odd vibe. This may be because I don't really know her but I'm uncertain what to think of some of her jokes. She kept talking about how she's town, referencing it in most of her posts. I want to check some of Tammy's other games to see if she usually says stuff like that.

I can save you some time. Yes, yes I do.

[gossamer wings]

Oh honey bee might just bee the cutest type of newbie.

[gossamer wings]

Degree of certainty should match up to the gamestate. If someone is more certain than they should be, something's wrong.

Baboon's certainty that I'm scum is excessively high for the gamestate/reasoning. Their approach to the game suggests that they'll read me as scum, regardless of what I do or say, probably for the rest of the game. That degree of certainty should be evaluated against their reasoning. Their reasoning was: OMGUS + reactive play + a belief that I stole their idea. I don't believe their certainty matches up to their reasoning. Think about it. How much weight would you give each point? OMGUS? I'd give it none. And Baboon are experienced enough to not give it much if any. Reactive play? Arguably more weight than OMGUS but still, not much. Stealing their idea? That's a tougher question. If they can link this behavior to scum -- show how this behavior makes it very probable that I'm scum -- then maybe their certainty is justified. They'd be wrong that I stole their idea, but I'd understand where their coming from. If they can't link that behavior to scum, which is what I believe based on my own inability to link the behavior to scum + their reaction when I asked them the question (refusal to answer), then their certainty doesn't match up to their reasoning. That's the problem I'm having with them.

Eh sometimes you just have certainty someone's scum. In Chef Mafia I pushed the hell out of slimer and after the game I read the scum team were complaining that it was a lurker lynch, but it wasn't I had a scum read and pushed it through.

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push. I'm more interested in your alignment at this point, which I'm hoping Falcon will be able to determine.

[gossamer wings]

Oh honey bee might just bee the cutest type of newbie.

she's not really a newbeee?

she sounds like one? I'd be surprised is she has more than 5-10 games to her name.

[gossamer wings]

*if

[gossamer wings]

IKA - Is there a reason beastcharizard is posting all over this site and not coming to this game?

[gossamer wings]

So please, F-16, Tammy, 5-Off, Cutty, fellow townies whoever you are, seriously interrogate Baboon's thought process. Is Baboon latching onto something shiny? Or is Baboon looking for actual scum motivation? And if you find yourself leaning towards the former of these options, for the love of God, do something about it. Please.

I don't think she's latching onto something shiny. I think she thinks she's caught scum. I'm not sure if she has, and I'm hoping the interaction between you and Falcon will help to settle that part.

[gossamer wings]

Where did Nati say she wouldn't lie to us because that would be useful to know.

Also, I thought I was your other suspect?

[gossamer wings]

Oh I guess I should read that stuff, it might have saved a headache or two >_>

[gossamer wings]

I also look forward to seeing what you do with my posting

[gossamer wings]

I was catching up last night but fell asleep. Give me a few hours and I'll re-read the thread and post my thoughts.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

Thank you for your scumhunting advice!

[gossamer wings]

Though I will admit I stopped reading it after the first paragraph, so if I was supposed to respond to something you should probably ask again.

[gossamer wings]

You spent a wall arguing mafia theory and giving me scumhunting advice. It felt similar to getting mansplained.

[gossamer wings]

What I'm gathering from a brief skim is you telling me one of my scumhunting tools is wrong, telling me your way is the better or right way, and for me to do it your way and answer questions using your way and directed me towards the answers I'm supposed to give.

That tells me you're only interested in my thoughts insofar as they're a reflection of yours projected back at you.

[gossamer wings]

Trust me Tammy I been pretty damn fucking awesome at figuring out town-you from scum-you. I even watched that newbie game where you were just scum and pegged tammy scum there too!

The pride cometh before the fail. I do applaud your attempt though!

[gossamer wings]

Although Nashville Dreams - I am super self-absorbed and do appreciate this hyper focus on me, but seeing as you're not as good as you think you are at reading me you should probably actually start commenting on things happening in the game.

There's 24 pages of information as of yet, and as far as I can see you've ignored a good portion of what's going on in your quest TO READ TAMMY. And in the process demonstrated that you don't actually know how to read me or get a read on me.

[gossamer wings]

Nice buddying there. Baboon and Four are likely T vT. Your perfume of buddying is showing.

Oh my gods. Your adorable! Thank you for this laugh. I really needed a laugh.

[gossamer wings]

I think I've repeatedly said there are things I'm not going to address in particular because I wanted you and Falcon to interact on this so that he can get a read on you. You guys know each other; he should be able to assess you. I'm hoping he'll talk to you today and the points we've been talking about he'll bring up to better read you.

I've said I don't think some of the points are that strong but that I still think they're town who believes you're scum. I don't know how much clearer I can get than I think they're town, with not that strong a case on you, but I don't know what your alignment is and I'd rather wait for Falcon to interact with you and talk with him about it to continue. Like that's clear.

And no when you spend the first part of a wall telling me that I'm doing it wrong and then how I should be doing it I'm going to start to glaze. Because my answer is not going to be different. I think Mara is town. I think the way she is going about it is more typical for her town approach to the game. There are some things about her thought process, that once again I have thoughts about but I'm going to hold onto right now.

[gossamer wings]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

Thank you for your scumhunting advice!

She's waitin' by the window
When he pulls into the drive
She rushes out to hold him
Thankful he's alive
But on the wind and rain
A strange new perfume blows
And the lightnin' flashes in her eyes
And he knows that she knows
And the thunder rolls
And the thunder rolls

Nice buddying there. Baboon and Four are likely T vT. Your perfume of buddying is showing.

This is a super serious question you need to answer right now.

Are you actually accusing me of buddying FourTrouble in that post?

[gossamer wings]

She's been goin' out with him
She's been goin' out with me
Said she'd let us know by tonight
Which one it would be
So I waited by the phone
But she never called me up
Had to know what was goin' on
So, I drove by her house -- and sure enough


Take your pick. Which one is scum? Or are you just going to sat a vague t v s to further your agenda.


Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

Take your pick Tammy.

...you clearly know nothing about me.

[gossamer wings]

You also clearly aren't reading my posts.

Give it up. You clearly don't know how to read me and if this little push here is some attempt to get some big reaction from me, you're not going to get it. I'm not going to devolve the game into a bigger distraction. The people who do know what they're doing with regards to me already know I'm town, and your silly detour is noted.

And if you're trying to to the oh so cute reaction test or pretend reaction test, save it. If you don't know how to read me from what I've put in thread so far, you don't know how to read me from a reaction test.

Now read my damn posts, interact with them, or leave me the fuck alone.

[gossamer wings]

Anything can bring you pleasure, even pain
Pick your poison
Poison
(You can learn)
Pick your poison

Pick your poison
(You can learn)
Pick your poison
Poison
Poison
Pick your poison
Pick your poison


You were buddying Baboon egging them on. If you want to argue t v s, pick a likely scum. it ain't hard.

Read my goddamn fucking posts.

[gossamer wings]

Also, I am through with Nashville. I still think they're likely town from early gut and Falcon now agrees with me. But I'll be damned if I let someone who obviously doesn't know what they are doing derail this game by picking at me.

[gossamer wings]

So your final answer is me thanking FourTrouble is that I was buddying him?

Thank you for admitting you're not answering my posts. Thank you for acknowledging that in the world of reading Tammy by tone you actually suck at it.

For anyone reading my posts and knowledgeable about my tone, it's obvious as fuck I was being sarcastic. Even if you're not sure, even if you went oh she's buddying someone, the following posts and interaction should have indicated to you that I was being sarcastic.

This will be my last interaction with you unless you prove to me that you are actually reading my posts.

Also, I don't give a flying fuck what you what me to type on the screen. I don't jump because you say so. I don't give opinions on things I don't have yet.

[gossamer wings]

*not reading my posts

[gossamer wings]

Also, so help me god if you come in here and go ha I knew it was Town Tammy all along I just thought I'd have a little fun, I will pummel you into the ground and likely replace out actually because I'm sick and fucking tired of dealing with people who do that shit because pissing off tammy is fun.

[gossamer wings]

Nashville, what about Bork and Ika are specifically town to you?

Answer this please, in context of what you believed at that time.

There was one of her, flippin' the bird
Sittin' on a Harley
And a few with some hairy hippie dude
Turns out his name was Charlie
Her hair, her clothes, her drinkin' smokin'
Had us boys confused
I'll never forget the day us nosey kids got introduced

To Mama, 'fore she was Mama

Um, didn't I answer it before?

My other head and I synced. We are leaning town on IHNC, CS, gut-lean town on Tammy-hydra, also gut-leaning town on Mara hydra.

~*~M

And it is a reaction test or an attempt to look like one. Fuck. You.

[gossamer wings]

Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi)

This really isn't true though. FT wasn't "whining" about you not answering his question. He was discussing his scumreads with me and the flow of these posts felt quite natural:

Fonz -- calling Lissa out but not committing was bullshit + he voted me.

Not sure on Fonz, I want him to respond to my question to him.

I'd like a response from Fonz to my question too.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

The reason I had a mild townread on Lissa earlier was because of neighbor things.

This. Lissa's excitement in the neighborhood was genuine.

Does he?

I have nashville as probtown, atm
Borkdra as maybe town
Lissa and 5-off as probably town

as far as Fonz goes, I don't know a whole lot about him, but atm he looks townish though I need to see a little bit more from him to make anything concrete
FT and flubber are the weirdest for me, and I'm thinking that one (or both) are maybe scum

Everyone else I have no impression on at the moment, and I think that the scum would likely be found among those who have yet to post

This post, too. How does Fonz look town?

Or Lissa

? Or Nashville?
How do I look weird? I literally only posted a vote and a question -- relatively straight-forward question, too. The positions are too... stancy? If that makes sense.

FT, you said in the first quote that Lissa's neighborhood posts were genuine but earlier (in the second quote), you were asking Baboon why Lissa was town. Didn't you think that neighborhood posting impacted their Lissa read?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

It felt like a rhetorical question though. Like you were accusing them of being scum and one of the reasons was that they had an unrealistic townread on Lissa. And in Post 205, you were saying that you don't follow any of their reads.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

damn, f-16 dropping bombs

I thought you were town reading four trouble?

[gossamer wings]

I'm having a slight ping that Nashville dreams saw me give them a town read for the way they were interacting with me earlier and the way they claimed EXPERT status at reading me and decided to capitalize on it. I think it's probably silly but wanted to get it out there. Basically I don't believe for one second they believe the drivel that's been spewed today if they've read my posts.

[gossamer wings]

5-off could be right or wrong. Being wrong does not mean lying. It is day 1. Unless someone knows something they should not, it's best to scumhunt the hood players individually. It is too early to know Day 1.

See this just proves you are not reading the game.

There is no 5-off could be right or wrong unless you think he just forgot how to read and guessed at what's in his role pm.

He's either telling the truth or lying.

Unless you want to argue that since his role pm said "rumors" it's something that might not be factually true, but you aren't saying that.

[gossamer wings]

Actually that's a decent pint I just made :p

[gossamer wings]

*point, I'm not drinking yet.

If 5-off is telling the truth, "rumors" might just be that, a rumor.

[gossamer wings]

Oh but damn yeah, I still think there's likely scum in the neighborhood, forgot about that.

[gossamer wings]

IKA - Is there a reason beastcharizard is posting all over this site and not coming to this game?

Hes a lazy butt and want to try to mimmic me?

I'm normally fluent in drunk but what does this mean?

Has beast posted in the game or has it been all you?

[gossamer wings]

This will be my last interaction with you unless you prove to me that you are actually reading my posts.

Also, I don't give a flying fuck what you what me to type on the screen. I don't jump because you say so. I don't give opinions on things I don't have yet.

This post was a huge vesperia flashback for me (being I was the one in ND's position then) and has strengthened my read on you

-b

Heh you have no idea.

I'm really trying not to be so bitchy. I just fail at it a lot.

[gossamer wings]

Just re-read half the game (up to page 13). Reading the rest now.

@ FT, I'm townreading Baboon because Mara's conviction feels genuine. Tammy's also played quite a few games with Mara and has her as town based on meta. She also liked Post 301 as something Mara is unlikely to post as scum. Post 311 is another reason I'm townreading Baboon. If they are scum, it makes little sense for them to limit their mislynch options within the neighborhood. Here are two games with scum-Mara for comparison. I played in the second one and Tammy played in both. From what I remember from the one I played in, she doesn't have the same conviction and certainty when she is making pushes as scum. Compare with NY 169 where she spent quite a bit of time pushing me when we were both town and it came across as very genuine. I also feel that Mara often hides her real reasons and gives up surface level reasoning so she doesn't truly give away how she reads people. Also, what about Honeybee's Post 308 resonated?

@ Baboon, 5-Off isn't newb scum. New to mafiascum maybe, but he's played plenty of mafia offsite and has a reasonably developed scumgame.

@ Lissa, can you explain your townread on Baboon and scumread on FT?

@ Cutty, I agree with your point on IHNC in Post 274 and I lean slight town on it. I think it was ika who posted it but I'm still wary of townreading a hydra with Beast for it. If he is scum, he can certainly drop fake towntells. In Mafia with the Quickness, Beast used his neighborhood as a hydra QT with Marquis and was scum then, so I wouldn't put it past him to drop a fake towntell.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

I do agree on this though with 4, he seems to be fidigeting on who is scum in neighborhood.VOTE: trouble

How is he fidgeting? He said Baboon is scum and has been consistent with that read so far.

adding on, if 4 is town i would look at baboon next for the scum in the hood.

Why?

i will add in that many of his post seem to be appeasing others to try to get them to vote people.

Which posts have been appeasing? And why is it scummy of him to get people to vote for his scumreads?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

F-16, what're your thoughts on the specific points I've brought up about Baboon?

I was addressing your concerns in general. Is there a specific post you want me to respond to?
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

@ IHNC, what between these two posts made you change your mind?

i gots no creativity - voting fourtrouble because he "is trying to appease people to vote who he want" and his reads seem "odd." Are you a detective dude?

I have POED it to be baboon or 4T as the scum in the hood, right now I'm leaning 4T. If one flips town, the other is scum IMO.

Okay, that reasoning makes sense, so long as we agree that I screw with peoples heads regardless of my affiliation. xD

I want this explained. vote 5-off. I was reading though and on par with ant.

I feel like their fight is TvT but if its SvT i would lean baboon.

First, you seem to imply that one of them

has

to be scum with a lean on FT. Then you switch to it being a TvT and

if

there is a scum, it is Baboon.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

F-16 You think FT's town?

What points do you not like?

I haven't nailed down a read yet but I think he's probably town. I don't agree with anyone's reasoning for voting him so far. Going over your case in Post 298:

1) FT hasn't played a lot of games on mafiascum and I doubt he would know that ika/Beast are easy targets. You got mislynched in Tales so he probably wouldn't see you as a difficult lynch although he might see Ceph as one. He also backed off once he thought that IHNC weren't as competent as he thought they were.

2) FT tends to OMGUS more as town than scum. As town, he tends to think that his attackers are scum or that something is wrong with them because he knows they are wrong. He is a vocal about his thoughts that OMGUS is more likely to come from town. I don't think he would try to "hide" it.

3) Why is demanding that people work with you more townish than scummy? I feel it depends more on playstyle than affiliation. Where have you "demanded" that people work with you anyways? Why is "demanding" proactive and "asking" reactive?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

(for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).

Why?

F-16, you might have a point about Baboon. I've been focusing more on Mara's posts than Ceph. Ceph is taking more of a backseat, which I suppose could be a town-tell, relative to other games. Still, their analysis is so shitty, hard to believe competent scum would be so bad as town.

What do you think of my point that Mara often hides her real reasoning for her pushes? Also, I think Ceph strongly prefers scum to town and his scumgame is more developed and articulate.

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

What are those differences? Also, did you skim through the game links that I posted?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them,

Why is this scummy? His playstyle differs from yours and he tends to hunt scumteams rather than individual scum.

having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist,

There are plenty of players who never provide cases or reasons for their reads and in my experience, the ones that tend to provide lots of reasoning as town also provide lots of reasoning as scum. He was also trying to sort me to see if I agreed with his reads and why. Why is this alignment indicative?

and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town.

Which post are you referring to here?

Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.'

We discussed the first part. The second is decent enough but I've seen town express paranoia as well.

Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

I read your MD article on why wagoning newbies early on is bad for the game. I doubt FT has and I wouldn't expect him to draw the same conclusions that you did. Although I don't follow his reasoning there either.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Why are

assuming

that the fight is TvT rather than figuring it out? Can you answer my questions in Post 657 and Post 660?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Initially, I cast my finger at Baboon because of Ceph's post in the Intern PM, which reminded me of the kinda manipulative posts that F-16 was talking about. That was a very weak read, though. I didn't vote them until recently. And the vote -- the stronger read -- is based on Mara's posts, after Ceph started signing.

What did he say in the intern PM and which manipulative post in particular did it remind you of?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

@ FT, don't quote. Pretty sure that's not allowed. I was asking you to explain in your own words. I'll read the rest of your post in a bit.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

The following is not a country song.

don't know why the stars fall from the sky
I don't know why the heavens open wide
Don't know where the winds of change will blow
But when I'm with you, I don't need to know
I wanna feel your feet lifting off the ground
Wanna feel you love me at the speed of sound
Babe, it could end tonight, know it would be alright
'Cause I'm gonna love you, somewhere on the other side

So like I'm in this mood and this song wasn't what I was looking for because I had another song in mind, but this one works too because its so fucking beautiful. I can't this show.

Anyways what I really meant to say is Tammy I'm going to look into what my partner thinks is a scum slip. I mean at first it pinged me because I remember Tammy and I once talking about how she caught nacho due to a very similar thing, but I got mixed signals there. Plus the fact she can't figure out that my partner switched it, not the head that was townreading Tammy prior to that.

I have no idea what this means. But from what I can glean: I have made no scum slip. It is impossible for me to make a scum slip considering I have a town role pm. I have no problem with you guys deciding to be a secret hydra and keeping your alts private because hey I like alts and come from a site that plays behind alts, but I'm going to call b. Fucking s. On you playing on a secret alt and then referencing conversations you and I have had. I don't know who you are, I don't know the conversation we had, so I can't place it or even defend myself from it. I've caught nacho based on some very specific things, and they tend to be gut and tone and his interaction with me or the ways in which he reads others. There is one instance where I read him on something specific, but my reasoning was something so specific and out there that the only people it nk I told were nacho, cabd, malakittens and empire. Not only have I not made the post in question, but Cabd's comodding, and I really doubt malakittens, nacho or empire is in that hydra or we wouldn't be going through this silly charade.

As for the other ways I read nacho you think are similar here, I have no idea why. Whichever one of your heads thinks you're an EXPERT in reading me just is not, is barking up the wrong tree, and is annoying me in the process.

Yeah, and if you're actually going to make a she's scum because she can't tell our heads apart in the process, when a.) you guys have been keeping your mains hidden, b) it's based on italicizing or not music lyrics, and c) the post I referred to literally claimed you guys had synced up I will scream. I took enough shit from mollie in the reckoning for LIEING because I couldn't tell her and Bert apart when I quoted a previous game.

[gossamer wings]

Oh I forgot to mention that it is somewhat unnerving and slightly suspicious that Nashville went Mia when challenged by someone not their hyper focus and when they do come back still only talk about me. I love being talked about and all, but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

[gossamer wings]

Anyway, I need to actually get out of bed and get ready for work, but I read through baboon again last night and still keep coming back town. I'll explain it more when I get home tonight.

I do agree with Bork that that frustrated response to me looks townish, and falcon has seen a few other posts he likes, but it's bot something I feel super confident on. (This is about ft).

[gossamer wings]

Also if one of those heads is ffery I'm going to scream and declare you most probably scum. Because if ffery is in that hydra and either committed or didn't recognize the bullshit tactic that whichever itslicize head pulled on me with that hounding to give a scum read and thinks that's a reason to call me scum when it pissed me off when broseidon/desp and PV did it to her in tales, and hasn't said anything about it, then they are scum. There is no way no how a hydra with a town ffery in it thinks that's a way to read me.

And of its Bert fuck you. I actually wanted to keep from playing with you after time shift for awhile. You tell me right now if you're Bert, so I know to avoid you like the plague.

Actually, fuck it. The only people that I can think of that would reference ways I've caught nacho, would if town not be interacting with me this way.

VOTE: nashville

[gossamer wings]

and no this is not omgus and don't anyone dare to frame it that way. I have been amused with their hydra and have thought I would amuse them. Thought that one heads Tammy Hunter thing was cute.

HOWEVER, when they disappear, and then one head talks about conversations I've had with them about how I catch someone in particular then that's not just some cute little hydra who doesn't know me and is trying to read me because they've read games and thought they were good at it. That is someone who actually knows me, and is actively trying to derail the game. And that is complete BS that they are now referencing conversations I've had with them because they don't have to face any consequences or interrogating regarding their hydra because they're hiding behind it being SECRET.

I don't believe they way they're going about the game, with them supposedly actually knowing me comes from town at all.

[gossamer wings]

also if that is bert, they are pretty much confirmed scum, or completely twisted in the mind. Because if it is Bert, and he was hounding me like that for a suspect and thinking it means something after hounding the fuck out of me in Timeshift Mafia when I was confirmed fucking town so much to the point I replaced out so I wouldn't have to deal with him anymore, then he's either super fucking slow or scum.

[gossamer wings]

I have to go to work, but that does remind me.

Oh expert in my meta aka TAMMY HUNTER: Can you pretty please tell me what you think you hoped to gain by hounding me for a suspect?

[gossamer wings]

Maybe it is a little omgus, but I have relevant points.

[gossamer wings]

And @bork you mean 51? It's voting where your suspicions lie is the problem. I believe the person who taught me this described it as “not voting like a townie” and I promise you many scum are guilty of it. Do you want examples? I can give them to you.

I'd like to see those examples.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

No. My final answer is you were buddying Baboon. Egging him to vote Four. How hard is it for you to type what you think Baboon and Four fighting is?

I see absolutely no evidence of this

-b

The post where they said "Nice scumhunting advice". It buddies Baboon and Eggs him on.

How does it do this? Also, I don't understand the flow of your read on us. Take me through how you went from calling us town to scum. Also, why are you trying to read Tammy to the exclusion of everyone else including me?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

And of its Bert fuck you. I actually wanted to keep from playing with you after time shift for awhile. You tell me right now if you're Bert, so I know to avoid you like the plague.

Fairly certain it's not Bert (I don't think Bert would try to read me on meta 2 pages into the game)

I might know who itali-head is but my stance on this is the same stance I had in GIF's touhou game with waynegg -- they desired to be anonymous, the mod agreed, and I am going respect the desire for privacy.

But I'm going to outright ignore any arguments they make about "I've got meta on yooooooooou~!"

-b

Yeah, maybe you're right, I dunno. I had no intention of even trying to figure the hydra out, but when one head says they've had a conversation with me about how I scumhunt someone and is trying to tie it to my alignment here, that's garbage. I can't know the conversation, the context of it, or how it does or doesn't apply here.

[gossamer wings]

Scum have day talk.

[gossamer wings]

FT, I don't think Mara as scum would post 301 (and Tammy agrees based on past games with Mara) because it involves putting herself out there and assuming responsibility for a lynch. And if you do flip town, she'd look bad for strongarming a lynch through as opposed to go with someone that everyone agrees is town. Even if people still townread her, it would be more difficult for her to have influence and credibility from there on out. Doing it on D1 is even more suboptimal for scum in the long run since there are a lot more days she needs to get though in order to win. On the other hand, her certainty makes sense if she genuinely believes she has something and is unable to explain it beyond it being a gut feeling.

~~~

As for specific posts from

NY169 with Mara as town

:

Here's Mara pushing on town-me

Here's Mara pushing me with even weaker reasoning

Here's Mara trying to gather more votes

Here's Mara pushing with fairly weak reasoning

Here's Mara pointing to her ISO as proof that I'm scum

Here's Mara's "case" on me

To add to that, here's Mara's defense of scum-Nacho, I'm adding this part to show how Mara hides her reasoning, has gut reads and then provides reasoning to fill those reads.

~~~

In this game, her conviction feels genuine in Post 317, even some of the language is similar to NY169, Post 443, her push to get you lynched in Post 498, putting herself out there in Post 505, her explanation of how she thinks in Post 533. I've only played one game with Mara as scum and I don't remember her making any pushes with conviction. I thought her partner looked town but wasn't paying attention to her. Tammy feels that she postures more as scum and I think she doesn't make the kind of all-or-nothing pushes she's made here. You make a good point on Ceph. It is still possible it was a poorly thought-out plan though. I was commenting to Tammy that one of their plans really wasn't thought out well at all. I'll talk about it this a little later though.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

That was in response to FT's post a couple of pages ago btw. I'm starting page 28 now.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Fonz, I can logically follow why you would suspect FT but I don't agree with your underlying idea that town would always act in a way you feel is optimal. For instance, you question Cutty Shark on keeping their vote on someone who replaced out. You also say that town need to prioritize scumreads and that not doing so is scummy. You also provide justification for why town players must provide reasoning for their reads. My problem is that you are basing your scumreads on what is the optimal play for town rather than what town do on average. Town don't always provide cases (Chamber), town don't always prioritize scumreads. Town don't always keep their votes on their biggest suspects. I've read your articles and comments in MD as to why it is beneficial for town to play a certain way. I just don't agree with it. For instance I vote when and how I want, sometimes try to find entire scumteams, and sometimes provide naked reads lists. I can buy that you as town genuinely believe in your suspicion but I also that you as scum would try to find things that townies do that are sub-optimal and unintentionally support a scum wincon more than a town one and push on those things and I'm undecided as to which it is right now.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Sure. And why is Fonz town?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

I'm sorry to continue to harp on this but if I did have a conversation with one of their heads about how I scum hunt nacho and they were using it to try to read me, why wouldn't they say "hey Tammy you once said x about how you read nacho, in post # you did x which is similar" except they didn't which looks like they're not actually trying to read me. And considering how I read nacho is so vague sand untenable that I have a hard time understanding it I can't fathom someone using a convo to try to read me.

What it more feels like is they know I'm easy to distract and piss off (I'm trying to change this but I suck at it.). So they decided they would pick at me and when I at first found it amusing and joked in return they decided to try other tactics that would get me pissed off and distracted.

[gossamer wings]

Well I said he had a lot of potential
He was only misunderstood
You know he didn't really mean to treat me so bad
He wanted to be good
And I swore one day I would tame him
Even though he loved to run hog wild
Just call me Cleopatra everybody, 'cause I'm the Queen of Denial

Sk that's for you.^

@Tammy:

I want to answer your questions and I will once I'm home, but right now I can't respond to your multiple of posts that are pointed at me. Yes as I said I been using tone lately to read the hell out of you and I keep getting mixed feelings for your tones in this game. Your comment as my partner describes feels more like the game where you went after nacho/cabd in HB because nacho made a comment that pinged you early Day 1. That's exactly what you did to my partner here, but part of it threw me back because I don't think I have ever heard you use that. Which is why when I get some time I'm going to search on you because I want to know if you have done it in past games because I don't ever remember you making a comment to that. It comes off as too stand-off ish, too cocky almost which I have seen you have heated arguments, but this one is just never something I have seen out of you in it's own way.

Also I'm trying to actively get a read on F-16, but I think my view on him is always going to be clouded from Wicked.

I'm currently working to figuring out those who I have played with prior and then work the way down the line because I rather work with someone whom I know and trust to be town rather than work with a newer player whom I have no skill in reading and be totally blindsided.

~M

This post couldn't be more bs if you bathed in manure.

One of you don't start speaking in specifics we can't actually have a conversation and if you are town and would want to work with me are blowing that possibility out of the water.

So you continuing to vague fly say a post was a scum slip or whatever the hell thing you saying is not helpful. I know no scum slip exists. I know this is my town tone cuz hi town, but with you not actually being cleR I can't figure out your motivations because to me your behavior says scum who's trying to get a rise out if me and cause a distraction. I get no actual sense of trying to read me and beyond that the people who are calling me town who incidentally you're calling town your not interacting with at all to see if you happen to be the one in the wrong here.

The hard boiled comparison is bs and you clearly don't know how I caught them that game. One of nacho/cabd said I'm going to my girlfriends, you guys catch scum while I'm gone or something like that. It was something I'd seen a couple scum do at my homesite and reeked of fake involvement early game. Then when nacho came bCk day 4? He put his to be sorted list as people who hadn't been regarded as universal town reads, me being one of them. He then tried to make our claim that someone was town but not coming back and pushing that as scummy when iirc they lynched really fast while we were both at work and mala had been on a break and she intended to explain why later. I thought his to be sorted list was opportunistic. What was the final clincher was the way nacho interacted with me. He wasn't interacting with me specifically or reading me specifically in the way he usually does when town and then he just dug himself deeper.

Since I have no idea what comment you're talking about but me being cocky And standoffish sounds pretty typical me when I get frustrated I can't tell you if I've ever said something before but considering I'm a human and not a robot in not going to say the same things all the time or maybe I'm going to say or react differently but that reminds me again of the reckoning where mollie decided I was scum BECAUS a phrase did not exist in my scum hunting toolbox and therefore I must be scum.

[gossamer wings]

I don't care if you find me suspicious, I just don't get your hydras interaction with me and if you are who I now think you are I'm completely dumbfounded and don't know what to think.

[gossamer wings]

I had a paranoid theory about lissa but I'm still pickng out briars.

Basically fonz was the one who came out and asked if everyone disbelieved the claim that 5-off made and that made everyone think lissa looks town. But I wondered, since scum have day talk, if lissa would have listed what happened in the neighborhood and her partners told her to react like that and then used it to clear her.

But I think that's a far fetched thought even for me. Except I don't not really

[gossamer wings]

I'm not going to out who I think you are.

What?

[gossamer wings]

I'm not discounting 5off especially as falcon says he has a well developed scum game. I know a couple people ballsy enough as scum to do that and without knowing him it's hard to discount it.

[gossamer wings]

Right. Hood people. This is reasonably important.

When 5-off said there was scum in the 'hood, did anyone say that their role PM didn't mention anything about that? If so, who did so first?

I paraphrased this post.

You're asking me to rationalize a paranoid theory. Lissa looked town to everyone for saying it? That's a motivation. I mean, as scum, she couldn't know that every town wouldn't have that in the role pm, but I mean yeah. I kinda like lissa anyway as she said she wentooking through my meta and couldn't find what others said was there when I kinda think it would be easier to go yeah it's there but yeah not going to stop that part of my brain that goes THEY SET IT ALL UP!!!

[gossamer wings]

Sure. And why is Fonz town?

~ F-16

His question confirming Lissa, his question in 626, his concern re: my interaction with 5-Off (which is wrong but understandable), and 683 had town notes (specifically his read on IHNC, his hesitance to read you guys as town based on your competence as scum, which I also relate to, and his self-checking re: Honey). Obviously, not the strongest read, as there are things about him bothering me. He hasn't committed strongly to a lot of positions, but I can also understand that feeling, since I'm having a tough time getting strong reads on most players as well. The misreading and blurring things together bothered me for a second, but it really could come from town or scum, as it was probably unintentional, regardless of alignment.

Actually fonz' hesitance to read us based on competence pinged. I don't think we're the only competent players here, and most importantly in swag town he used the too paranoid to read you as town cuz I was fooled by you as scum. (He used the wrong reasoning to be paranoid of me though which felt fake). So I'm like is he doing it again? Not a big point but I did go eh.

[gossamer wings]

Tammy, please at least comment on the notion that it's incredibly risky to do that as scum, because if everyone else goes 'Yeah my role pm is the same as 5-Offs' your bluff is called and you get lynched, whereas if you wait until one other person has commented either way, you blend in. I've seen scum been caught in a similar way (scum warned that there might be scum in the neighborhood, all the town PMs said there definitely was).

It is risky. Impossible, no. Unlikely, sure.

That does not stop me from jumping down a rabbit hole and going what if?!? Not a case I'd make or something I'd push but sometimes I feel better getting my random theories out there to see whether or not they are possible rather than hold onto them and start building it.

[gossamer wings]

I don't mind if I am a null read or if someone thinks I am competent at scum. I do get surprised that people think that but it's nice. I just had flashbacks about that particular one.

[gossamer wings]

Why would scum have fake claims here?

[gossamer wings]

Or what Bork said.

[gossamer wings]

Wait do you know role as well?

[gossamer wings]

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new

here

and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I don't follow. 5-Off's genuineness here matches your genuineness as scum in Wingate so you think 5-Off is town?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Second thing - here is what I am thinking.
On 531 - I don't think their certainty is excessively high. It makes sense to me - they are reading me as town, they are thinking 5-Off is telling the truth, that leaves you if there is indeed scum in the neighborhood. I'm not entirely sure if that's included in their reasoning, but my reasoning includes some of that. Stuff like the supposed plagarism thing is not why I scumread you - I think you should have mentioned that Baboon first said what you said (and I thought it was odd that you hadn't seen it), but I don't think it's inherently scummy that you didn't.
On 537 - I don't really think her read on you is that bad. It's a weak case, yes. But I am not sure that's scummy in itself.
On 576 - not really sure what to think of this post. I don't see much of relevance in it that you hadn't said before.

I will see if I can fully explain my Baboon townread tomorrow. (weekends like to make me lazy and it's late now, sorry.) And if I can't explain it, I will reevaluate. Because Four, I'm actually feeling like you're kind of making a decent case right now.

You just refuted or dismissed everything he said as irrelevant, non-alignment revealing, and null. What is this "decent case" in your eyes?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Nope

we have all gone quiet.

Also I am pretty sure I placed strong convictions in getting F-16 lynched in swagtown?

As well as jakelynch in borkgame?

I didn't get lynched in Swagtown.

Also, can you explain your townread on Nashville?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Full disclosure, FT made my eyes glaze over within his first two sentences on page 24 and I didn't read the rest of his posts on said page. Also, if Nashville's remotely sane head isn't Titus I will eat my walking stick.
-Ceph

Maybe the balls are tasty?

Sanity is a scum tell for Titus by the by. >_>

[gossamer wings]

On competence, Tammy, the point is you've not really done anything that would be particularly difficult or risky for either of you as scum. I'm not going to read you as town because you're active and making semi-reasonable points, because you do that in every game. If you drop an actual towntell? That's when you get read as town. I can understand you being wary of expressed paranoia because Swagtown - hell, that's precisely why i'm suspicious of FourT's 'I'm so paranoid' schtick.

Will my nightkill be a sufficient town tell? >_>

But you didn't answer falcons question. How are you familiar with his scum game or what makes you think he's competent at scum? (Something like that.)

[gossamer wings]

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You.

Actually, I'd like to know how exactly and from which posts in Tales of You, you felt manipulated by Ceph. You were townreading Fox/Hound before you flaked so I don't know what you are referring to.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

I don't think I asked Fonz why he thinks I'm good as scum. Probably posted that in our hydra QT.

But I am asking now: Fonz, what scumgames of mine have you read?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

I don't think Titus is in there.

[gossamer wings]

Oh, I misread something then, hmm.

[gossamer wings]

If you guys are town and italics head is who I think it is, they're town reading me and supposedly don't need reaction tests to read me. Which is what leaves me dumbfounded to your whole interaction with me past the cute phase. Supposedly italics head would want to work with me if they got a town read on me HOWEVER your hydra has proceeded to interact with me in such a way that it's a near guarantee that will not happen. Even if I'm wrong, and even if I realize I'm wrong, working with you has a very very very slim chance of happening.

[gossamer wings]

I never thought Titus was in there.

I was making a joke about Titus' sanity being a scum tell.

[gossamer wings]

Fonz, I can logically follow why you would suspect FT but I don't agree with your underlying idea that town would always act in a way you feel is optimal. For instance, you question Cutty Shark on keeping their vote on someone who replaced out. You also say that town need to prioritize scumreads and that not doing so is scummy. You also provide justification for why town players must provide reasoning for their reads. My problem is that you are basing your scumreads on what is the optimal play for town rather than what town do on average. Town don't always provide cases (Chamber), town don't always prioritize scumreads. Town don't always keep their votes on their biggest suspects. I've read your articles and comments in MD as to why it is beneficial for town to play a certain way. I just don't agree with it. For instance I vote when and how I want, sometimes try to find entire scumteams, and sometimes provide naked reads lists. I can buy that you as town genuinely believe in your suspicion but I also that you as scum would try to find things that townies do that are sub-optimal and unintentionally support a scum wincon more than a town one and push on those things and I'm undecided as to which it is right now.

~ F-16

Oh, it was this post falcon is waiting for fonz to respond to. Sorry for the confusion.

[gossamer wings]

You haven't given me any indication you're someone I'd want to work with as town.

Just because two people are town doesn't mean they're compatible to work together. Doesn't mean that happens for every game, but sometimes people don't click, sometimes it's noones fault, and sometimes people just rub you the wrong way and have a creepy fixation on you to the point where it feels like the whole base is to cause a distraction.

Now, you've ignored some things. What did you think you'd achieve by hounding me for a suspect for one and why did you not address two peoples responds to your hilariously wrong interpretation of me buddying bp and egging them on.

[gossamer wings]

I don't think I asked Fonz why he thinks I'm good as scum. Probably posted that in our hydra QT.

But I am asking now: Fonz, what scumgames of mine have you read?

~ F-16

Dude, come on. I haven't read a game of Mafia for a year. I didn't even recall you were in Swagtown until you mentioned it on this page. I couldn't name a single game you were in with me other than that, nor what your alignment was in those games. I couldn't name the game I was in with Tammy where she looked town as scum that I referenced in Swagtown. Hell, I wouldn't even have recalled that my last game was

called Swagtown

had Tammy not brought it up first.

So obviously, I'm not going 'I think F-16 is competent scum because of his performance in Ass End of Nowhere Mafia.'. It's a general remembered impression of you being a decent player, just like I'm not going to turn around and list a

specific

game where Fate used CAPSRAGE or Majiffy was a douche or Mastin posted massive walls of text.

If I'm wrong and you suck as scum such that you playing a fairly unremarkable game here is absolute proof of your town-ness, feel free to gimme the links.

Team mafia 2012, and you guys were town reading my predecessor for the way he used meta to read something. Even after I replaced in that was one of the main point iam used in my favor. That was why your paranoia felt wrong in swagtown. I didn't think it made sense to worry about my scum game from that game and thought American revolution would have made more sense.

There's something that strikes me a little odd with this post though I can't put my finger on it. Mostly a reminder to myself to come back to it.

[gossamer wings]

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You.

Actually, I'd like to know how exactly and from which posts in Tales of You, you felt manipulated by Ceph. You were townreading Fox/Hound before you flaked so I don't know what you are referring to.

~ F-16

The manipulation wasn't apparent until months after the game, when I saw the outcome and Fox was scum... I don't remember exactly why I town-read him there, but there were subtle things he did like faking conversations with his hydra partner, fake stuff like that. I also remember reading a couple of his games, and there stark were differences, like he was actively manipulating his meta. I don't remember exactly so I can't really answer your question. Hard to tell now, I just looked over the game and I can't help but find all his posts scummy, filled with fake emotions, etc.

By the way, I should have said this earlier, but I'm really sorry about leaving you mid-game, and also just my horrible play that game, one of my worst games, I never really had time to commit, knew finals were coming up, and should have just waited until I had time.

Don't worry about it. You didn't miss much.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am townreading you.
gossamer and Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am scumreading Four.
I'll go iso-find some more townish Baboon posts now.

Reading Four's posts seems to have a strange tendency to sway me towards his viewpoint and often when I read others' posts about him I ask myself why. I'm wondering if that's worrisome or if I'm just being paranoid.

How did we remind you why you're scum reading four when we haven't even become comfortable with what we think his alignment is?

[gossamer wings]

That's cool I will not be reaching out to you.

From my point of view, you have no reason to take that tone with me. I did not start this.

[gossamer wings]

I'm pretty sure I caught your crumbs and figured out who you are; I also have a guess for your other head if my guess on your head is correct. I've also reread your iso with that guess in mind, and I'm still completely dumbfounded if I'm right because it leaves me confused as to your interaction and your tone. But to clear it up. Did you once tell me that you didn't need a reaction test to read me? If you did, then my guess is right. And I'm still lost on your tone and approach.

FTR I was not irritated with your hydra, and found the expert status amusing, until that horrible misinterpretation or misunderstanding of my post to fourtrouble. I don't believe the "buddying bp and egging them on" comes from a genuine place of suspicion. I just don't. It totally misrepresents my entire interaction with both parties and furthermore ignores that I asked mara not to take the don't answer questions from scum reads avenue because if fourtrouble were town he'd probably not get a reliable read from them. Like that interpretation of me being frustrated because fourtrouble was basically telling me I was doing it wrong and how I should be doing it is completely wacko. But what really dropped it was non italics head hounding me for a suspect and the stupid ass posts I dealt with yesterday, which betray not actually reading my posts, not caring what they say, and instead just trying to pick at me and bait me. I don't appreciate being hounded; I gave all the thoughts I had on the matter, or that I was willing to share. It didn't make it any better when you tried to vaguely throw that Nacho bit at me, in which you referred to a conversation we had and tried to apply it to some, notice you're still not being clear, post in this game. I know it doesn't. I know there's no scum slip. So, you just bringing something up and being vague doesn't actually do anything because I can't address it and I can't read you from it.

[gossamer wings]

And all knowing your head, or thinking I do, has done is confuse me. Because if I'm right, and I look at your earlier interaction with me, all I see is gosh that's such a weird approach from them, and then how in the hell did *they* no recognize that was me as town.

[gossamer wings]

Trustworthy is me.

One of your heads said they synced up and I was a town read.

The next day, the non italics head came in and voted me for the mind numbingly stupid reason of buddying baboon pride and egging them on to vote ft. Then started hounding me. That makes no sense whatsoever. None. Not at all. The only way that barrage of crap makes sense is that you guys are trying to reaction test me or make it look like you are because I don't buy that suspicion at all.

Maybe i'm completely wrong on who you are then. Because yeah I don't buy your interaction with me at all with who I think you've crumbed. Either you're scum or you're not who I think you are.

[gossamer wings]

I throw my hands up. I don't know who they are. The crumbs fit, the knowledge of some games fit, the grammatical structure fits, but the tone doesn't. The "I need to interact with you to get a non-meta-tone read" doesn't fit, that sounds tacked on and false.

So, I don't know who it is.

Whatever.

[gossamer wings]

I was frustrated with fourtrouble that he basically told me I was scumhunting wrong. That whole bit about looking for intent being overrated, which I happen to find rather useful, not that I get it right all the time. And while I was trying to tell him why I thought Baboon was town, which goes to what I expect from Mara as town v scum, he pretty much disregarded to tell me that I was doing it wrong. And that I should be doing it his way, which then felt like leading me to his conclusion and disregarding mine.

The tone couldn't be more dissimilar.

[gossamer wings]

but you didn't give me a parallel reason, you were vague. You didn't even say what post you thought a scum slip was, you danced around that. So how can I even respond to that and explain it when I don't know what you're talking about.

[gossamer wings]

But you didn't even tell me what post of mine you thought was a scum slip. And I'm not sure why you would even bring up a half conversation anyway, and then not expect me to get even more frustrated because the conversation became one sided and unfair. I was already dealing with what felt like a total misrepresentation of my posts, someone who was not reading my posts, and then being hounded which is the exact opposite way to get anything out of me.

I don't know what you expected from me.

I mean if you want to be a secret hydra fine, I have no problem with that, but I also don't think it's fair what both your heads are doing with regard to that. For example, using part of a conversation I had with you and not connecting it so I can explain it or even know what I'm doing. And the way your other head is taunting ika isn't really cool if you want to be a secret hydra either.

[gossamer wings]

And that post makes me think my initial guess was right, but then I'm still just left really confused at your interaction and tone.

[gossamer wings]

Yeah, that's been my guess from earlier, I thought the fairy tale references might be that, and I've gone back and reread a couple of your games and your interaction with me and I'm still confused.

Your other head quoting my frustrated response to fourtrouble and calling it buddying and egging someone on (and then refusing to address the people who argued that point) and you coming in later to say that my scum slip reminded you of how I caught Nacho isn't exactly making it clear that you meant me saying nice scumhunting advice was similar to Nacho saying find me some scum when I get back. They're not even the same; I don't know how you expected me to translate that.

[gossamer wings]

Never fear this just means your training in the many shades of Tammy's Town Tone (TM) is not complete.

[gossamer wings]

And I went back on my town read of you guys because you started freaking me out. I worried that you were capitalizing on the town read I was giving you for your interaction with me, then worried non italics was trying to cause a distraction when the earlier interaction didn't make me mad because yesterday's posts didn't make any sense, then when you brought up the nacho stuff I replayed all of our interactions and none of it made sense for anyone who knew why I read nacho as scum initially in that game, so then it felt like trying to use half information to call me scum without really drawing a line that I could even comprehend or defend against, and I couldn't figure out how all of that equaled town.

[gossamer wings]

Also the fact that they tried to crumb their identities to certain people who would in all probably be able to read them probably means they're town.

Falcon agrees with that and brought up a couple other points in their favor.

UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:

also *hug*

[gossamer wings]

Actually Malahead can you explain why "Thank you for the scum hunting advice" is out of the ordinary for me and something I just wouldn't say? Because me getting somewhat bitchy, sarcastic or condescending is pretty standard for me when I get frustrated, and I fail at doing better at it, and on the scale of Tammy gets bitchy when frustrated that is super low. I'd say I was bitchier to Sleepy, sorry sleepy, than fourtrouble. And considering that we hydra together, you know that, so it seems super weird.

Marahead of Baboon - I thought you didn't read mala all that well. Why would knowing that it's mala reinforce her to a top tier read?

[gossamer wings]

*also what would have been town about that hydra if it were nacho?

[gossamer wings]

Yeah, no, that doesn't do it for me.

You are essentially claiming I have to say things I've said before. Would you prefer I cussed him out?

I still don't understand your tone or the really complicated manner in which you've 'sorted' me.

Whatever, we should probably just drop it because I keep getting annoyed with that whole thing. Either you're making it up or you clearly have no idea how to read me or what you're actually looking for in my tone.

I'll just try to read you another way and do my own thing.

[gossamer wings]

Also the catch me scum tell has nothing to do with it being out of character for someone's personality; it's a false bravado of sorts.

[gossamer wings]

What I'm worried about is that you thought you'd be able to hide behind a secret hydra and hyper focus with incorrect meta and it wouldn't have mattered because you'd be able to say whatever you wanted and there'd be no way to verify you believe the way you say. And then when it started going badly for you you decided to out who you were to me because you think if I know who you are you'd be able to manipulate me.

[gossamer wings]

Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am townreading you. gossamer and Baboon, thank you for reminding me why I am scumreading Four. I'll go iso-find some more townish Baboon posts now. Reading Four's posts seems to have a strange tendency to sway me towards his viewpoint and often when I read others' posts about him I ask myself why. I'm wondering if that's worrisome or if I'm just being paranoid.

How did we remind you why you're scum reading four when we haven't even become comfortable with what we think his alignment is?

When you point out...

There is a line of posts there that I felt manipulated by in the same way I felt during Tales of You.

Actually, I'd like to know how exactly and from which posts in Tales of You, you felt manipulated by Ceph. You were townreading Fox/Hound before you flaked so I don't know what you are referring to.

~ F-16

stuff like this.

In that post I was asking FT how he felt manipulated by Ceph in a different game? Why exactly does that remind you why you are scumreading him?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Hi mala :3
As far as I can remember, this is far away from your scum meta, so my feelings about you earlier are gone. But I wanna see your full reads post.

@ bork, f-16: as promised:

Spoiler:

So what do you guys think of EspressoJet saying "Good luck finding blue team"? Why do you think he picked blue team instead of red?

This post reads as a bit scummy to me. I didn't put any thought into which color I wrote, and it didn't even occur to me that it would matter. This feels like a stretch to out me as a Mafia, but at the same time distance yourself from the accusation by hiding it behind an open minded question.

FoS

Kept vote on himself while throwing an fos on someone else.

So far:

* Boon - town
* Molla - null (Due to a previous game, need to be more wary of my reads on him)
* Nespresso - null leaning town
* Mr Ree - null leaning mafia
* Rubicon - null leaning mafia
* Bert - nothing
* Honeybee - nothing
* ZZZXXXSSSDWECSSADFQWEASDF - nothing

All based off the pushing and prodding. They're pretty loose but hopefully this will generate some discussion.

UNVOTE:

I'd be quite happy to move out of RVS given what I've seen.

--

Mr Ree - post 39 appears like you're attempting to downplay a possible slip (I'd say almost protectively, but others also did the same so I am happy to say it isn't based on others responses), almost like you're setting a precedent for what should or shouldn't be read as a slip. Why?

Further to this, you seem very interested in the self vote of Nespressojet in 44 - this is curious to me. RVS is, or should be, fairly random. Why does the self vote grab your attention?

Rubi - in 28 you pick up on an assumed 'tell', but then get quite defensive of that in 51. Your focus then seems to shift almost seamlessly to Molla in 60 and 64 - why the rapid shift? Why not place more pressure on George Clooney (Nespresso)? I might be over reading here, but both your posts appear to be throwing mud, without actually pressuring them. Generating dirt on players that can be used later is... interesting.

Threw out a bunch of scum reads but just unvoted his rvs vote.

And thesp is null to me until he answers about his scum reads.

Sorry, I missed your question. Is this what you're referring to?

Thesp, I really don't care for town reads, is jake your only scum read?

I'm really not keen on Flames682. If he was still around, at this moment he'd be my scond choice for a lynch. (When he's around, we'll find out exactly where he ranks. At this point he needs to be replaced.) I think the play of BoroPhil and Boonskiies is terrible as well. While I can't imagine that all four of our lurkers/flakers (some of who are actively lurking) are scum, I definitely imagine they didn't want to get caught up in the me/Jake from State Farm tussle, and the poor play of the town lurkers/flakers has likely enabled scum lurking/flaking. I don't see scum playing like BoroPhil is playing, but to a greater extent I don't see

town

playing like BoroPhil has. (Same with Boonskiies, to a lesser extent.)

I like the pressure on BoroPhil. If there's no change in his behavior, I will gladly move my vote there to secure a lynch as needed.

I actually like the last several posts from Jake from State Farm.

Kept his vote on jake even after admitting that Jake was probably not scum.

I really don't understand this argument here. Whether or not RQS is a viable option for starting a game really has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. Neither is refusing to answer the questions (which is more like a tell of personality). Either way, arguing about RQS has been extremely unhelpful to anyone.

All the lying accusations feel really weak.. People forget, people don't read, it's natural. Lying to me is only scummy when it comes to interpreting reads or PR information of the current game.

And just so you know, I don't like meta arguments. Maybe you all feel differently, and that's fine. If you want to convince me of anything, try a different way.

That's all I'm going to say on theses subjects. Anyways..

I'm not really being hesistant, I'm just suffering from typical D1 apathy.

Can someone start a fight with someone?

Basically the first page was full of a whole series of rubbish reasoning. Also fluff. Lots of fluff. Scum love fluff.

Cheery is worrying me as he has voted for me. This could be simple paranoia.

First off, Borophil, you realize that the first page was RVS, right? If you really thought "rubbish reasoning and fluff" was scummy, why not just vote someone and make some progress.

Why did you ignore Cheery dog's question? You need to explain what that last comment meant. Also why are you voting jake? Because they want to be IC?

I am quite confused by this conversation and don't know what to say about it. Therefore,
I am going to just leave my vote where it is for now and may end up changing it.

If you don't understand what they're talking about, you didn't understand the case in the first place, and were just bandwagoning.
VOTE: TheGottemer
TheGottemer, Can you tell us your thinking about the game at the moment?

Jake, do you still believe is TheGottemer is scummy? I think you changed your mind.. so I want to know why.

Thesp, can you give us your current reads at the moment? If you have made reads on anyone else, I must have missed it.

Boonskies, what makes ashura voting you scummier than joining any other wagon? I mean there was plenty of other wagons to join at that time.

(me) Switched my vote to someone else even though I spend more of my time pressuring boro.
=17285&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]enomit iso
Enomis literally never pressures the person he's voting (or in this case bussing) and spends all of his efforts at the shiny hydra.
=19101#p4984698]Mala iso
Mala also ignores her vote target in order to pressure other players like jmo, leaving me to push the lynch instead (damn u mala ).

Anyways you get the point but the relation of your vote and your reads are very important. Townies move their vote naturally with their suspicions, but with scum you are at least somewhat aware or thinking about how your vote looks. And it's not a strategy per se, but instead just a mistake because scum don't know where's a safe place to keep their vote.

I seem to be having trouble accessing this site from my computer, is anyone else having problems?

I don't think voting or not voting is alignment indicative in general but I can buy that you believe that. I want to see a full reads post from you as well.

Ak I have been perusing their iso and I haven't seen anywhere that they're actively pushing to find someone's alignment or directing their efforts anywhere else. Their vote is parked on baboon and the conviction that he finds about a few meta reads and one post is totally wrong to me.

Even if it is wrong, why is it scummy? Also, how does one "actively push to find someone's alignment" in a way that Anatole hasn't been?

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

That's interesting. Tammy's gut said Honey was scum as well but she didn't/couldn't explain it either. I don't have a read yet. There is not a lot I object to in her analysis but there's also very little that scum would be unable to fake.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Showing up once in a while and making a helpful-sounding wall full of analysis that isn't original or insightful.

~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

@FT, yeah, I agree with all your points on Honeybee. I was thinking the same thing about the questions to 5-Off because whatever answer he gives, it doesn't say anything about his alignment here. It is more like she was trying to catch 5-Off in a contradiction about his mafia principles. The word choice is a bit awkward. Don't know if it is because she is a newb or if it is alignment indicative.

~ F-16