Mini 1633 ~ Non-normal Mafias Mafia OVER!!!

[FourTrouble]

/confirm

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flubber is def town

Why?

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Blocs never need to be explicitly mentioned to be formed, yet that is exactly what is happening based on the (apparently) flimsiest of reads.

How is that scummy?

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That townbloc argument sucks.

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How does forcing townblocs trick townies into thinking you're town?

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The best move for scum is often pro-town (e.g. bussing when they don't have to). Of course, that blurs the line between pro-town and pro-scum moves. Forming townblocs blurs the line between pro-town and pro-scum, because you don't know if the player forming the townbloc is scum or town. That lack of knowledge doesn't mean the act of creating a townbloc is scummy -- it's null, unless you have independent evidence that the player forming the townbloc is town or scum, in which case the player is town or scum based on something other than the act of forming the townbloc. Point is, forming townblocs is null. Whether they end up having a pro-town or pro-scum effect depends on whether the player forming it is scum.

As for Mastin's "lecture," Mastin's point is more about probability of success or failure -- townblocs formed early fail more often than townblocs formed later; townblocs that form organically without trying succeed more often than townblocs that form consciously. The original lecture -- I looked into it -- was in response to the question, "What's the best way to form townblocs." The question wasn't whether forming townblocs is scummy, and Mastin's answer has to be read in that context. I don't agree 100% with Mastin's analysis, either.

In my experience, I've never seen a townie say to themselves, "X is town because X formed a townbloc," so forming townblocs doesn't have much value as far as tricking townies into thinking you're town. I've also never seen any evidence that people who "force" townblocs are scum more often than town. In fact, in my experience, the vast majority of folks forming the townblocs are town.

I'm not saying Metal is town. I don't know. I think as a matter of scumhunting, a better approach is asking Metal why he thinks Om and TN are town. Trying to understand his thought-process, etc.

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Mathdino is probably town.

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Vote: Om

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eyestott, what do you think of Flubber, dino and Om?

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Om, why is Flubber town?

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much

...And the relevance this has for scum hunting is? I'm trying to decide if Four is Town and over-analyzing a point of the game via Mastin because apparently we navel gaze Day 1 OR if I should lynch this with nuclear fart fire.

Relevant to Metal's alignment.

[FourTrouble]

ok so basically i liked flub's post on policy lynching a policy lyncher felt town as heck and he feels like he's on the same wavelength as me regarding setup spec and he sounds honest as heck when i read his posts so im quite happy putting him as 99% town right now

What sounds "honest" about his posts? I don't buy a 99% town based on wanting to policy lynch a policy lyncher and being on the same page as you regarding strategy -- those are both theoretical positions.

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I agree with Om about Zombeh.

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You know what it's also characteristic of? Newbs being uncertain what to do against perceived veterans attacking en masse.

And I disagree with this. Town noobs don't self-vote so early, even after some pressure. At least not typically. Zombeh's just given up, which I don't think town would have done, the way Zombeh did. I also agree with whoever said he should replace out if he doesn't intend on playing.

[FourTrouble]

also i think four trouble is town as heck but idk why his vote is still on me when he's openly agreeing with what i said about zombeh being scum and is not pushing for me being scum in the slightest

I don't automatically town-read folks just because I agree with them. But you're right, I don't want my vote on you -- just figuring out where I want it.

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Vote: Ghost

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eyestott, help me lynch Ghost.

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whats wrong with ghost?

I feel like he's going through the motions -- asking questions, taking a couple positions -- but doesn't care what happens. Part of this comes from his overuse of qualifiers like damn and fuck; overemphasizing points that don't need that emphasis makes the emotion feel very fake. You, Pasch, TN, eye, Math, and even FuD (who I want to see more from but I liked his first two posts) feel much more invested in what's happening.

[FourTrouble]

I agree with you about Zombeh. I'm down to lynch him, but for the moment, I don't think voting/pressuring him is very helpful. I'm also holding out because I'm hoping he's replaced, and I'm also paranoid he's an idiot noob town, so I'd rather focus on people who are here and who we can sort right now.

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UNLESS YOU ARE EXPLICITLY READING ZOMBEHS AS TOWN YOU SHOULDNT BE DEFENDING THE WAGON

This, too. Seriously.

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I'd say more but I don't have anything new to add.

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FT how did you feel about Ghost's post about pasch?

Doesn't cut either way. Bit hypocritical after he attacked my post about town blocs, but it's also not something I feel strongly about.

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ika feels town.

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MTD is V/LA until Jan 2, so I'm not sure why you're voting there.

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How do you feel about Pasch? Gut says he's scum but I can't explain it right now (it's not because he defended Zombeh - I was already getting bad vibes before that).

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I'm not even defending town blocs - I was talking about using a desire to form them as a town-tell or scum-tell (especially without other evidence).

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I'm pretty confident Om and eye are town.

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FuD had a great post earlier that I thought was town - then he had that weird post where he didn't catch up but felt like weighing in on the lynch lurkers discussion. Which sucks cause the lynch lurkers discussion was a great way for scum to post without taking any meaningful positions about the players in the game... so I understand why you'd suspect FuD, but I'm not gonna vote him.

Ghost might be town. I'm not sure anymore on that read. The emotion in his posts feels so fake to me, but I could be wrong, and he could just say "fuck" gratuitously for no reason all the time.

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Yea, that's the post. I know this isn't brilliant evidence or anything but changing names to "Ghosty" and "Flubbs" and just the overall wording of the post gives me huge town vibes.

But of course, the lactivity (new word for lack of activity) in this game is screwing with the reads I have - so I can't tell if FuD is town. Or like, I can't tell anymore if dino is town because he disappeared after I got good vibes from him. I dunno. I'm basically just waiting until after the holidays to sort shit out. I'm starting to think Ghost is probably town because he's active and I like how he responded to my vote (i.e. not giving a shit and just continuing to talk about other stuff).

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I never thought of sheeping as a general scum-tell - largely depends on the player and context. eye seems like the kind of person to sheep, especially in a game like this where everyone is having trouble getting reads (or at least I am).

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Ghost might be town. I'm not sure anymore on that read. The emotion in his posts feels so fake to me, but I could be wrong, and he could just say "fuck" gratuitously for no reason all the time.

I'll let you in on a little secret: I do it to illicit reactions. As both alignments. It's to sort out the bullshit, if you can pardon my french. It also lets me rattle your cage a little. I'll be honest, there's not a lot here to be emotionally worked up in this game. No one's said anything really scummy or exasperatingly dumb. Then again, the amount of sheer NOTHING that's been said in this game like Om shared about FuD has also been said.

Now I've just fucking ruined it for the entire rest of THIS game, but...I really don't have anything to hide.

You're fucking with me, right? I highly doubt you calculate every use of "fuck" just to see how people respond. Plus, I don't think it rattles anyone's cage (or at least not mine). All I know is the emotion doesn't fit the context or gamestate, and that's always something I look for as town.

[FourTrouble]

I agree and I haven't done any meta on him so the basis for my concern sucks. I don't really have any scumreads at this point. Just a concern about Ghost, and a gut feel on Pasch. But I don't want my vote on Ghost anymore so I'll help you pressure FuD for now.

Vote: FuD

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I'm gonna get into this Jan 6 - sorry for the absence.

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TN, why is Pasch too controversial to lynch?

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So fat,
mathdino is town
Flubbererer is town
Om is town
Ika is town
Eyestott aint
VOTE: eyestott

Please explain. I'm like 99% certain eye is town.

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Titus is stupid but town.

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ika's hard to read, and I don't have a good sense of his meta, so I'm not sure about him yet.

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VOTE: Om

Based on this page alone, Pasch gets a sheep.

I like this entrance. Pretty natural, honest, towny.

@TN, The argument isn't forced. I just don't get what his problem is.

As for why sheeping, I cannot help but read the page I say hello on. It happens. Without context, Om looked bad. Plus a calm and reserved player like Paschendale generally does not tunnel like that. So sheeping would at least get me reads and see how everyone else felt. It gets us away ftom policy and towards discussion.

And I like this explanation. And I agree with what he's saying - out of context, Om wasn't obvious town from that page. So both these posts give me a townread on Titus.

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I'm pretty confident that Om, eye, and Titus are town.

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@FourTrouble, why is Om town? Why would Pasch be so confident in something so wrong?

Keeping the game alive when there wasn't anyone else giving a shit + pushing the right people at the right time are massive town-tells. Zombeh was legitimately scummy when Om pushed him, and Om's push is also a massive town-tell.

Pasch's confidence doesn't mean shit. He could be scum. Probably is. Or he could be a clueless townie. Either way, I wouldn't sheep him just because he's "confident." Even highly accurate townies (and I wouldn't put Pasch in that category) are confident sometimes about wrong reads.

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Om, do me a favor and stop arguing with Pasch. It's giving him cover (basically all he's done all game is argue with you) so I can't even read him properly right now.

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I'm like 15 pages behind. Anyone want to give me a summary?

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Ghost, why is your vote on math?

Om, can you give me 1 or 2 reasons why Titus is scum?

MTD, why is eye scum?

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ika, why are you self-voting? What pro-town goal are you pursuing?

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btw I apologize if these questions have been answered but right now, I'd like to get in this game and I'm just not up trudging through the bullshit. I might read through the whole game at some point.

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Om, I get that you think Titus is scum but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have options come deadline. Midget seems like as good a counter-wagon as any. Ika is a bad one. Eye's not a good one either. I'm down for midget, or maybe tn.

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ika, why are you self-voting? What pro-town goal are you pursuing?

randomly we decided that dino was no longer a good idea to lynch so people started to pick me and i said and i quote:

IDGAF

*votes self*

gogogogogo

---

then titus defends me and spikes myparanoia
eye jumps on
phase jumps on and misreps me

basicly we are playing musical votes

Okay, that doesn't really answer my question. What's the pro-town objective to voting yourself? I know you're an emotional player so it's not a tell for you, but that still doesn't mean you should do it.

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Ghost, what do you think of midget's push on eye?

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MTD is likely town btw - wanting to stay in the game despite almost being replaced feels more town than scum, and his 833/834 were town as fuck.

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We have a week till deadline. Let's do something that should have been done ages ago:

Vote: Pasch

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Ghost, join me on this please.

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What's "WK" mean?

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Pasch or tn are the scum on your wagon - possibly both. Pasch's vote was especially scummy.

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Pasch, why is ika scum?

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VOTE: Ika

Definitely. Self-voting is never okay.

If self-voting is "never okay," why'd you spend so much energy defending Zombeh?

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Ghost, talk to me about midget. I asked youba question that went answered. You could start there.

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His reasoning seems pretty shallow (if not weird, read his Ika defense) when it exists, his actual defense of Ika has bizarre resonance with the idea that a Vig would kill Ika (Vigs generally do not target folks who will have their ass in the wind soon) and it seems like a really fucking great way to get town cred.

Where's his ika defense? I see him pushing eye more than he's defending ika. He says something about who a vig will target, but it seems more to do with the fairly popular view that Titus is a policy lynch, so it makes sense. I don't think it's scummy or Towny - plus it's a shitty lynch to push cause he has 4 posts. I want to see more from him. Right now, Pasch is the best person to pressure.

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Also, that's not true about vigs - vigs target people they think are scum, or anti-town policy lynch players - Titus seems to fall into that category on both levels...

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Uh yeah, I might be ok with lynching Pasch as well.

Why the hesitation? Vote.

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Midget, thoughts on Pasch. More than just town or scum. Tell me specific reasons.

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Midget, the suspicion on Pasch has nothing to do with Om. Take a look at his votes. He defends Zombeh for self-voting, then jumps on ika when he self-votes. He hasn't done anything significant this game other than attack the reasoning others use - so his play is reactive (just sitting on the outside), inconsistent, and opportunistic (voting ika).

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Pasch is saying Zombeh was a noon and therefore not scum. So when it comes to Zombeh, Pasch takes into account the specific player ("Zombeh is a noob so self-voting isn't scummy for him") but when it comes to ika, he doesn't ("ika's self-vote is scummy regardless of ika's meta"). Pasch also maintains that he wasn't defending Zombeh, just attacking the players for voting him. That's scummy because Pasch is refusing to tie himself to a position - instead he's focused on attacking or commenting on others reason ing. Town are looking for the scum so they take positions on alignments; scum are looking for ways to look engaged without having to look for scum. Pasch is doing the latter (lots of commentary on what others say but very little attempt to tie that commentary to alignment).

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Pasch, why is ika scum?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

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House, there's a difference between "scumhunting" and "attacking bad reasoning." Town do the former, which sometimes entails the latter. Scum only do the latter, which makes them look engaged when they're not actually scumhunting. Pasch attacked bad reasoning - the question is whether he was scumhunting or just trying to look engaged. I think he wasn't scumhunting because Pasch insists he wasn't defending Zombeh or attacking the players voting for Zombeh. What was Pasch trying to accomplish then? Pasch says he was just attacking bad cases, i.e. he wasn't scumhunting, he was just attacking bad reasoning. He didn't develop any reads. He didn't stop anyone from voting Zombeh (at least that wasn't his intention, according to his claim that he wasn't defending Zombeh).

[FourTrouble]

I'm not defending him. I'm debating the merits of the push. It seems to me that scum would leap on a poorly justified push like this.

Here's another example of Pasch attacking a case (on mathdino) while insisting that he's not "defending" the guy. The scum intent is leaving options open; he's not held down to townreading someone so he can always turn around and push a lynch on the guy. It also allows scum to look engaged and active when they're not doing anything; he's just attacking cases instead of trying to figure out alignments. The easiest thing to do as scum is take a case and attack it; every case can be attacked (either by attacking its assumptions or logic), which is why it's so easy for scum to fall into the habit of doing that instead of actually trying to figure out who the scum are, and taking responsibility for the positions inherent in your moves.

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House, there's a difference between "scumhunting" and "attacking bad reasoning." Town do the former, which sometimes entails the latter. Scum only do the latter, which makes them look engaged when they're not actually scumhunting. Pasch attacked bad reasoning - the question is whether he was scumhunting or just trying to look engaged. I think he wasn't scumhunting because Pasch insists he wasn't defending Zombeh or attacking the players voting for Zombeh. What was Pasch trying to accomplish then? Pasch says he was just attacking bad cases, i.e. he wasn't scumhunting, he was just attacking bad reasoning. He didn't develop any reads. He didn't stop anyone from voting Zombeh (at least that wasn't his intention, according to his claim that he wasn't defending Zombeh).

That there's a lot of words to basically echo 904.

I hadn't seen 904 yet, but yes, it echoes the idea.

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912 was a response to your question in 901; it seems you answered your own question before I did.

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So you think Pasch is town?

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Eye, why is Titus scum and who else are you willing to lynch?

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Ghost, I never said it's town. Let's talk about the game. I want to figure this out. Why don't you want to lynch Pasch? What do you think of my "case" (if you can call it that)?

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I didn't say he was town. I said the things that you're citing as scummy are much more just newbish. The self-vote included.

Because it's not legitimate scumminess. And you should know better.

I'm down to lynch Flubber after Pasch, especially if Pasch is guilty.

[FourTrouble]

Uh, ignore the Pasch quotes above.

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I've actually only ever seen town self-hammer. But I've seen scum self-vote for sympathy pretty often. Either way, the self-vote is only a small part of my case on Ika. It's interesting that FourTrouble is ignoring the entire rest of my case.

I'm not ignoring Pasch's case. I've asked for it multiple times:

Pasch, why is ika scum?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

Note that Pasch is the one ignoring me, not the other way around.

So which is it, Four?

You really want to claim that I'm scum because I devoted some, but not most, of my efforts to stopping what I saw as a mislynch?

And you're ignoring the majority of my posts which are scumhunting. This is a seriously empty argument you're making. Why are you lying and misrepping so hard?

Pasch says he was trying to stop a mislynch. But --

And, of course, I never defended Zombehs. I never once asserted that he was town. I (correctly) said that the attempts to lynch that slot were duplicitous. Again, please understand the difference and don't misrep what I've said.

Earlier, Pasch says he wasn't defending Zombeh. Which is it? Was Pasch trying to stop a mislynch (i.e. defending Zombeh) or was he attacking the cases on Zombeh? Note the same pattern re: mathdino in 582.

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ika, please stop self-voting and vote your top suspect.

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Also note the scummy loaded questions in 936 ("why are you lying?").

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House, why aren't you on Pasch? Flubs is a shitty lynch for Today - we'll learn a lot about his alignment based on Pasch's flip.

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Tn, what's your read on Pasch?

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You seem to suggest either Om or Pasch is scum or both. Which are likely scum and why?

[FourTrouble]

958 is directed at tn.

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Pasch is the easy wagon. He's often mislynched as town because he plays a scummy town game.

I don't think his wagon is easy. I haven't looked into his meta and I'm not very good at meta analysis - if you know him well can you speak more about this?

[FourTrouble]

I believe Pasch's flip + nightkill will give us information about you.

[FourTrouble]

I've given it multiple times. What part is confusing you?

Please direct me to your "multiple" cases. I can't find them.

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According to Om, scumhunting is toxic.

For someone who says they hate misreps so much, you shouldn't be saying stuff like this. It's not what Om meant and you're at least smart enough to know that.

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Not loaded. You are lying. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're doing it on purpose rather than you're just being dumb.

I'm not lying. I'm also not misrepresenting you. You're just not taking clear positions which allows you to keep saying people are misrepresenting you when they're really not.

[FourTrouble]

Anyway, done talking with Pasch. He's either scum or plays pro-scum. I'm not great with meta but if someone else is, it would be worth looking into.

[FourTrouble]

Let's vote Eye. Pasch is a counterwagon to obvscum Eye

Eye isn't "obvscum." I don't even think he's scum. Explain. Why is eye scum and why is Pasch town?

[FourTrouble]

Still waiting on your Titus analysis.

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Eye, summarize your case for me in 2-3 sentences.

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Titus' case on me is almost solely bout me defending Om.
Multiple times, Titus claimed to think the deadline was 2 weeks, even though people's responses, the tone of the game, and all the VCs said otherwise.
Titus claims I am awkward, over the top, that my posts don't ring true, that Something I did was funny (in a wierd way), that Om/eye have been defending eachother, that I've had no scumhunting, discussion, or thought, and that I've been in pure defense, with a bit of OMGUS.

How does any of this make Titus scum?

[FourTrouble]

Oh what the hey, why not...

VOTE: eyestott

If I were making the posts you've been making, I'd be totes scum.

I need more from you about Pasch. You're avoiding voting him even though you think he's scummy. Please elaborate more.

[FourTrouble]

Titus I don't like your townread on me.

I don't like this. Weird for town to say this.

[FourTrouble]

I understand it (and I've seen town question shit like this before) but it still bothers me on a gut level.

[FourTrouble]

Vote Titus

Pasch next.