Mini 1663: Rick and Morty Mafia (Game Over)

[Rainbowdash]

/confirm

/confirming my meds are wrong

If you are a hydra you should be claiming heads in your next post.

[Rainbowdash]

I am pretty sure my role is going to be linked to an anti-town so probably need to claim it out the gate. I am Mr Meeseeks... technically mod never game me a role name more than being aligned with the good guys. I have a compulsive ability to perform a certain player's actions for them, I don't know the action, their role, their alignment, etc. Also its an unblockable action. This is something I have only seen a variant of once before, and it was scum controlling town. If somepony can figure out who is going to be targeting me each night, that would be nice. Until they are dead I am also going to be randomly acting so just a heads up.

I get the feeling this is a power heavy game with my role to start. It may be worth an early massclaim, especially as it could basically confirm me as town if my "controller" never shows up in that claim.

Heartless attack is comical. Apparently Jingle for a scum PM that was an antagonist so he tries to invert flavor which he would at that point know is going to be proven wrong? Seems like an odd conclusion for scum to come to. I could see TOWN who got an antagonist PM come to that conclusion though.

Vote MMWW

Im serious about the hydra thing

[Rainbowdash]

We are not mass claiming, how it's that helpful?

Newbie theme mod, already forgot to post sample role PM, my role suggests power heavy game, we have already seen a few minor mod errors.

All very good reasons to massclaim early. Too many ponies are just nervous about it since it goes against ingrained instinct.

@Heatless - How does Jingle claiming Jerry fit into what you are seeming to accuse him of with him being an antagonist and trying to flip that around? He literally name claimed already, and you are the one that brought up the "Dark Collation" thing to start, and if its in your role, how do you know its not in his? Its not like he mentioned it randomly, you brought it up, he echoed it. I almost would bet that Heartless is more likely scum than Jingle because he is trying to paint the win condition thing as a scum thing... which if he is town he should know is null.

This attack is bad. Mainez and lufan look really bad in it.

@lufan - Doesn't all the information that Jingle "isn't supposed to have" information that Heartless brought up first? Explain why you are voting Jingle, without quoting any reasons that Heartless has posted, because I think you have no clue why you are voting him.
@Mainez - Why would you want Jingle lynched without knowing what "Dark Coalition" is?
@Elbrin - Why are you assuming scum didn't get safe claims?

[Rainbowdash]

the joke is that jerry is the shittiest character

Well he did start with:

Reroll the setup, my character is awful.

So that seems to gel with his reaction

jingle's already offered a different explanation though so it's kind of moot

So.....

He saw you imply scum is "DC" so he used that term... so Jingle is scum? I figured you knew it or flavor heavily implied it as well given how you used it.

What do you think of Mainez apparently not knowing the key part of why there is a Jingle wagon yet actually wanting to back the wagon?

[Rainbowdash]

Well the good news is that I don't actually have to move my vote to be voting scum.

Only way Jingle is scum here is if this is just dumb luck that somepony saw a slip that isn't a slip but it happened to come from scum. If you pay attention a whole lot of "scum slips" come from town who just word something oddly.

MMWW/Mainez/lufan is a great pool to start lynching from. Elbirn isn't that bad either.

[Rainbowdash]

i said what on earth is dark coalition because i didn't see it anywhere in the intro or what not and based on what i read here, it appears to be the name of the scum team, no?

Then why did you vote Jingle?

What is omgus?

It's short for "Oh my god... You suck". When someone votes someone since someone voted them.

How was that OMGUS though? It has a very clear reason as to why he voted him that isn't OMGUS.

Easy, Just jingle is scummy IMO.

Are you ignoring my question to actually explain that read because you didn't see it or because you don't know how to actually answer it and hope the question just goes away?

@MMWW - I think Jingle is somewhat likely town in large part because the entire wagon are scum reads. The "scumslip" thing is I am arguing is a null tell, because most of the time its just someone having said something very oddly.

Vote lufan

That may make the questions harder to ignore.

[Rainbowdash]

i said what on earth is dark coalition because i didn't see it anywhere in the intro or what not and based on what i read here, it appears to be the name of the scum team, no?

Then why did you vote Jingle?

because it appears to be the name of the scum team and only the scums know the name of the scum team. by the way, i did not vote Jingle but i would have. but not hammer because it's too quick a conclusion to jump to.

Are you reading this game?

If you think that only scum know the scum team name - you should be voting Heartless because they claimed to know the scum team name. Then it was echoed by Jingle, who said they assumed Heartless was saying something that appeared in pregame flavour.

[Rainbowdash]

I need jingle to post. I have so,e questions that might help us

Just pm him why don't you?

-1-

Because its against game rules. Please go read them. They are there for a reason.

[Rainbowdash]

So lufan still cant/wont explain their vote. That's a thing that's happening.

His case literally is:

Same reason as everyone else, has info he shouldn't have

Just jingle is scummy IMO

I'm bad at explaining why

the vote stands

That is it. I really think he doesn't know why he is voting for Jingle here since he cant actually explain it.

Anypony else notice the players who are lurking and refusing to answer questions are all voting Jingle? Decent enough town tell on him right there that most of the wagon has no clue why they are on it.

@kthnx - You do realize Jingle basically tacked on the "and its also somewhat of a policy lynch" and that is for some reason what you are getting worked up about right? Are you disagreeing with the rest of why he is voting RIP and what is your RIP read sitting at?

[Rainbowdash]

Here's the deal. They way I read the Heart/Jingle interaction, I don't see how 1 isn't scum. I don't see that being Heart. This leaves Jingle. Just because it was the first wagon and it reached L-1 in less than 10 pages doesn't make it the wrong wagon.

This has nothing to do with what I asked, unless you are essentially claiming you are just trying to paint anything Jingle says as scum because you are creating a false dilemma and you think that Heartless is town.

You are attacking Jingle for seemingly saying RIP is a policy lynch (utility lynch may be a better term but meh). Are you trying to ignore that its just part of what he is calling RIP scum for?

Also why do one have to be scum? The attack from Heartless was bad enough that half of THAT ACCOUNT said it was dumb. I mean, assuming Heartless is town that is essentially confirmed town saying the attack is dumb, so why wouldn't anypony get upset with being attacked for something that shallow?

Side note to all RIP-kthnx is excellent scum team if one ever flips scum with the way kthnx is seeming to passively scum read RIP and then attack Jingle over a false dilemma while highlighting a minor point in the RIP attack from Jingle as being bad... or something really confusing like that.

Again, are you disagreeing with what Jingle said about RIP apart from the policy lynch talk? And for that matter why is policy lynching bad? Or for that matter utility lynching which is massively underused.

lufan/RIP/kthnx

That is a great pool to lynch from here. I would put good bits on two scum before no scum in that group. lufan and RIP are trying to just ignore attacks on them, kthnx is making these weird attacks that seem to take somewhat hypocritical stances and blow things way out of proportion while ignoring more critical links in the chain.

[Rainbowdash]

Secondly, I am not attacking Jingle for saying RIP is a policy lynch. Where are you even getting this? Jingle calls me an idiot. He then says he doesn't like how RIP insults his intelligence. He then calls many people in this game idiots. I was simply, as was bolded in my post, pointing out how hypocritical and fake his 'feelings' are which goes hand in hand with his fake bullshit 'whoa is me I'm lynched' posting.

Because you spend more time arguing this point than anything else about Jingle. Plus "faked" seems like a weak attack because its pretty subjective. For instance why cant I just say that you are being "fake" in trying to use that tell? Falls in that "overreaction" category which is just filler to try and make a weak case look stronger. Plus am I to expect you actually know all of the time how many votes are on you and will never miss an unvote, count wrong, etc? I wasn't sure how many votes was on Jingle there, knew it had to be close to a lynch and went back and checked after the claim there.

As far as I can tell, you have one subjective tell on Jingle, or in more blunt terms - no case. Just like the rest of that wagon which needs to be nuked off the face of the planet. I will hard defend anypony who is getting pushed for reasons that are just ponyfeathers, and I cant for a second believe you are comfortable being on a wagon if you are town that has lufan (who cant explain his vote) and Mainez (who is voting him for the scumteam thing but apparently doesn't know the scumteam name) on it.

Im defending him because everypony attacking him is a varying level of scum read due to complete lack of any player being able to get something that resembles an actual tell together. The closest thing that has come up is a "slip" that half of the hydra who "caught" it thinks its not one. So yeah, I think he is the mislynch of the day and am going to get in the way of it as much as possible. It tends to be exceedingly difficult to get a lynch by that im not a fan of.

Your hypocracy is around RIP. You seem to call him scum, then are just coming down hard and almost calling Jingle scum for interaction with him where Jingle calls him scum, which seems to show that you either don't really have a leaning scum read (which is about where you seem to be on RIP - although you seem to be shirking answering that one) or that's changed... or you are trying to say Jingle is bussing... or something that doenst make any sense.

So out of curiosity... why is one of Jingle/Heartless scum? That just seems like another thing you are throwing out there to somehow add more weight to your push.

Actually really tempted to move my vote here... but lufan being unable to actually explain his vote on a L-1 wagon is a major concern.

[Rainbowdash]

Also in my experience.People who pop in like aristemedes or whatever his name is, those are the people who we need to policy lynch. I was 2000% more content and post than he does.He makes one post with : OMG rip is scum guys I just read.

So then its basically OMGUS attack because you ignore the players who aren't attacking you and are doing the exact same things?

Also stop posting about ten times each time you decide to post. That is viewed... negatively... here. Just make one post that concisely says what you want to say. Its about content, not quantity.

There has been a whole lot of softclaiming, I still think this may be a game to massclaim day one.

[Rainbowdash]

We have far too many people with no content. Really think some votes on lufan would be nice since they appear to be avoiding the game now (and still have not actually explained why they voted Jingle).

@RIP - You seem to be saying that you have offsite experience, what is the common approach to PR claims where you come from?

[Rainbowdash]

I see how voting jingle was a bad idea. VOTE: RiP

Not the worst vote, but still not really an answer for why you voted Jingle in the first place.

@Mainez - Can you explain that DC thing again? I cant figure out what you are trying to say. At what point did you figure out that it was a scumteam flavor name?

I still think lufan needs votes.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok. Let's force scum to kill me since that's better than a myslinch.
Things I know based on role.

I'm aligned with good guys.

I'm a miller. If I'm investigated I will show as "dark coalition"
If there is a Obv town I can "protect them"

GL goid guys.

Role name and flavor. Go.

[Rainbowdash]

These whole last few pages....

Will try and get caught up but that was just confusing to read. You ponies need to work on consolidating your posts.

@mod

- Out of town starting Friday, likely not able to post again until late Monday

[Rainbowdash]

We should be lynching one of lufan or flames. That or massclaiming.

@Flames - If you don't buy the claim, why actually back off the lynch? Especially if he should "be lynched tomorrow" which kinda bugs me to start because of how much it assumes.

lufan better lynch though. They continue to ignore the game as much as possible (there are a few here who have more content than lufans entire game is a single post) and have been unable to explain anything they have done so far.

[Rainbowdash]

i think you need to read my last few posts

I think you need to read your last few posts

I missed the doc claim in RIP's post and just saw the miller part. I agree a doc claim lynch is bad for D1. So, Jingle today, RIP tomorrow.

Why are you coming in with a defense due to it being "bad play" to lynch? Especially if you are confident enough to be saying that he should be lynched tomorrow as is unless you are working some really complex "if-then" formulas going on. Who cares if he claimed doctor if you think he is scum? You obviously still think he is scum given your posts.

[Rainbowdash]

It means that he's not a Doc {since he amended his Claim} and that

I'm basically CCing him

.

Not sure why I missed that the first time.

So....

We are massclaiming right? The "sorta the same" with as much softclaiming as has gone on makes me just want to say that the massclaim actually works strongly in our advantage here, especially with at least two sets of linked roles where I would be at least one is a town-town interaction outside of shenanigans occurring.

If we massclaim while I am not around the next few days, Mainez and Heartless should go late, Jingle should go early.

unvote

Massclaim. Seriously. Way too much has been claimed at this point where scum already probably have quite the hoof up on us, may as well try and break it back at this point, especially as the game seems PR heavy as I assumed it was to start. PR heavy games are more easily optimized.

[Rainbowdash]

They aren't dead. I unvoted and mod missed it.

@mod

- I unvoted in 344

But seriously though, can we massclaim now? I mean, how can we not with so many full claims already and a vig claim now?

[Rainbowdash]

re vig claim: Rainbow, do you really believe a vig claim from someone who 'hammers' themselves?

Yes.

I don't see scum faking a provable role like that, and if you want to bring up SK fears if two kills persist for more than the first night he is caught there.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow how many full claims do we have? I don't think it's enough for massclaim (unless I missed a bunch).

Four.

Me, RIP, lufan, Elbrin.

Plus we have a few more things going on like:

If Morty/Elbrin is scum it essentially clears the other (I actually think this claim all but confirms Elbrin as town - doubling down on that would be nice though)
If whoever is in control of me doesn't claim or is scum I am confirmed town
d3x has "semi-cc'ed" the RIP claim

Yeah, we are massclaiming here. Way to many claims, related roles and soft claims to do anything else. Some basic optimization is possible here.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, are two claims and a softclaim enough for massclaim?

With so much interrelations in roles, yes.

Plus as I have said, I am reading the game as power heavy and don't have confidence that the mod actually balanced this game well given the amount of minor mod errors that have been occurring.

Mainez, kiwi, yakoo and aris are all people that need to be first in line when thinking about VIGs or any other NAs
All with about 10 total post and not much content

Yet your 100 posts and not much content is just as difficult to play with.

Look - If massclaiming or game breaking/optimization is on the table and you don't take it, you are playing against your win condition. I really think that when there are so many roles that apparently are related (and searching roles which tends to discount scum-scum pairing) its time to massclaim.

[Rainbowdash]

Oh wow I missed that claim in page 17.

What now?

We massclaim. Popcorn style (whoever starts choosing another who claims and then chooses next, etc)

d3x starts because he countered already. Then we figure out what is happening and how many semi-cleared players we actually end up with, even though with a BG + Counter + BP claim we have one for sure in RIP/d3x/lufan if not actually two.

Nas are night actions. So if u have a tracker or some other investigate time role or something u should target those ppl

Also entirely wrong on tracker theory, but that's a different argument.

[Rainbowdash]

I rather play with ppl that post as much as me than not postin.This is an investigation game, if u have 100 post to look over there's a 100 chances for u to find something.

If someone post a few times well there's not much to find.Making a huge wall of post every 3-4 days should never give u away or u are dumber than a rock. U had 4 days to think about a post that makes sense and looks good.

I will try and make this simple for you:

This is a site that is more of a deliberate pace than other sites. A vast majority of the players are in that 20-30 year old range so are late into college, have full time jobs or have a family life. That means that a lot of us only have a window of a few hours a day that we even can post because of lives outside of games. Not everyone is going to post every day, but when you post a bunch of small posts that add very little to the discussion, it makes it harder to keep up than if you made just a couple that got right to the point.

Missing a day of posting does not mean a player is trying to lurk. Maybe there was a deadline at work, maybe they had a final exam the next day, maybe their kid had a sports game. Stuff happens and posting goes down at times. Expect a couple of posts out of your normal player each day.

Lurkers are hard to deal with, but its not always the best move to just policy lynch them unless you want to call them legitimately scummy like how lufan got wagoned up. If you want to try and get wagons on them, show why they are scum, or working the other way present a case why everpony else is town, as process of elimination works quite well at times.

Also games should not be broken, but they can be optimized. Like always think of playing a doctor role, you could either randomly target someone, or target the player you think will be killed. If you target the player who you think will be killed, you just optimized your role. Its doing that on a greater scale, as it tends to be about what mods balance for.

Its d3x to claim. He claims and picks who claims next.

We should NOT massclaim in D1.

Scum can easily just shoot whoever is threatening at that point.

Too many ponies are just nervous about it since it goes against ingrained instinct.

Its like im psychic or something

[Rainbowdash]

Newbie theme mod, already forgot to post sample role PM, my role suggests power heavy game, we have already seen a few minor mod errors.

All very good reasons to massclaim early.

"The mod fucked up on posting a role PM, and it's a newb theme mod, so we should mass claim."

Yep. Im not really hiding the fact that I don't have massive trust in the mod to have everything together and that this game is well balanced. The oddness of roles makes me more sure of that as this goes on.

You going to ignore the fact that we already have two pairs of connected roles at least? That at most one of my role + whoever is controlling me can be scum? And that at most of one of Elbrin + Morty can be scum? Boy that would be nice to get some guaranteed pairs going wouldn't it? You are still voting Jingle so that's basically requesting half the game claims either way.

[Rainbowdash]

And some ponies said massclaim is useless and this would be a low PR game...

This is awesome. I think there are a couple of others I can add to the semi-conf town pile from this. Once we get the last couple of claims there are a few action optimizations that need to be taking place.

[Rainbowdash]

Because thats what it is. I "watch" someone to see if they were visited.

Yes or no: Your role explicitly states that you are a "Weak Watcher"

[Rainbowdash]

You're doing someone else's action? And the action's target is being determined at random? Is that correct?

First part yes. Second part no. Its one of those roles I was pestering the mod about quite a bit, but I get targeted by someone and I have to target who they wanted me to. The player targeting me only will track visiting me, not who I have to target.

Also KJ while having a dumb role is probably town if its true, otherwise its game breaking for scum if used right. Think going into a five alive two scum scenario all they have to do is claim the partner is going to be lynched, they take a dive and that leave a F3 where KJ has two votes. I could absolutely live with him getting targeted by role cop though

Yakko lynch is good to go because in a game that is all PRs, motion detector seems like a bust of a role. I guess it could be a "lol fake VT" type trolling from the mod... but I don't think so.

[Rainbowdash]

Also KJ while having a dumb role is probably town if its true, otherwise its game breaking for scum if used right. Think going into a five alive two scum scenario all they have to do is claim the partner is going to be lynched, they take a dive and that leave a F3 where KJ has two votes. I could absolutely live with him getting targeted by role cop though

who said anything about kj getting two votes?

For some reason I thought I saw that. Either way, it seems a little broken for that to be a scum role since best play would likely be to keep claiming a partner dies and then benefit when that happens.

[Rainbowdash]

So a few things

1) Aristo is absolutely targeting me tonight
2) Jingle is not acting ever under penalty of lynch
3) Elbrin and kthnx need to split two players (four total) that they target we don't want them targeting the same player

Yakko or RIP lynch is today. Or we can do lufan kills RIP tonight and make them both dead.

I think its all in Yakko/RIP/Flames and at most one of Aristo/Jingle

[Rainbowdash]

i was just regular watcher didnt wanna die at night. gl town.

That better be a scumclaim joke

[Rainbowdash]

Ok so, RIP did not visit Heartless and look what happened...

You tracked RIP?

[Rainbowdash]

So between Heartless last post and the horrible track target Flames is probably scum.

Also im vanilla now so that is nice. Aristo should either not target or target Jingle tonight.

[Rainbowdash]

How does Heartless's last post have anything to do with me scum?

You should know this, others may not though so I will explain.

Weak doctor is a unique role in that its basically a mix of protective and investigative role, oddly enough its a better investigative role than things like at tracker. In simpler terms, the weak doctor is cop that dies in they target mafia and protect their target if they target town. Heartless died, immediately after they said that they would target you. Until lufan posted, I just assumed scum went directly for that kill and RIP was brought down by lufan, that has been proven to not be right.

We are dealing with two kills, and a vig claim so says they are not responsible for either. Heartless could be responsible for their own death though if you were scum. That's what I am going off of when I say their flip means you are scum. That and that you actually targeted RIP when lufan when asked who they should kill was told one of RIP or Jingle, and you didn't target players like KJ or Mainez.

So yeah. I think you are scum based off of the night actions, because I come up with only one (somewhat more complex than I believe this pony would come up with and very risky) scenario that isn't "bastard modding" where we had two deaths. Plus weak doctor + tracker + to a lesser extent kthnx and Elbrin... that is a LOT of town investigative power. I want you to answer me: How do we have two deaths without weak doctor self-destruct coming into play?

Town block is me + lufan + Elbrin. Artis is an honorary member for now, I guess d3x can be too but meh. Lets rock this game.

@mod

- Can you fix the first page? You have Elbrin listed as dead and RIP alive there.

[Rainbowdash]

What's the complex scenario?

Shouldn't you be the one coming up with a theory of how you actually are town?

VOTE: Flames682

Am I doing it right?

Yeah. Im going to wait and make sure kthnx doesn't also have a guilty though.

[Rainbowdash]

So just checking: You have a grand total of zero scenarios that exist in your mind where you can actually be town?

[Rainbowdash]

So the only thing you can come up with is that Heartless lied in a scenario that if they lied and it went wrong probably cost town the game?

Realistically the only way that you are town (likely) is that lufan is actually a SK who claimed on shot and got super gutsy by deciding claim to not have killed last night and instead killed Heartless or killed Elbrin (I don't actually doubt you tracked RIP) which if you were scum could actually buy them some extra time.

What about the bad track decision though? Why track RIP over the players that we claimed were not going to be acting, or those that would have inconsequential actions? What the BG is doing seems like something useful for scum to know.

[Rainbowdash]

Because of that, I suggest not lynching Flames today. If we don't lynch him then he has to give a result tomorrow as well, as do you. If you're town, your results will obviously be helpful. If you're not your results will still give us information to analyze. Either way, we can only get added information from letting the two of you live. And that's not even considering the chance that you or Flames eats the NK tonight, given that you're both strong roles and scum has to risk losing a player in keeping whichever of you is town alive. Not to mention that at least flames is limited scum utility at this point, given that we've already massclaimed.

But he is scum. Why let him live?

We shouldn't abandon this plan unless we have a second guilty. In which case we lynch whichever guilty has the weaker role. Once KJ has named his prediction, Kthx should say his target and result.

We should absolutely abandon that idea. First KJ isn't confirmed town or anything like that (he actually isn't a bad scum pick) so we could be giving him something very dangerous. Besides, is your read of him actually going to change if he confirms his role?

Once kthnx claims his result and lufan/mainz get targets we should be lynching Flames. That shut down he has done since the lufan lack of vig shot sure reads as scum to me.

[Rainbowdash]

Also Rainbow nice ignoring the line above what you quoted.

So why aren't you voting d3x yet if you actually buy into that? I mean, that is the only way you can be town right?

[Rainbowdash]

And that's the KO punch

Let me think a bit on what we are doing for actions but can we keep flames off L-1 because that is just inviting a self-hammer.

First, not sure who died and made Jingle confirmed town, but this him leading everything and deciding who does what is pinging my paranoia hard.

Yeah Jingle isn't confirmed town by any reach (although Flames-scum is a good point to Jingle-town). He is in the lynchable pool still here. Really think you are scum still. Two town essentially rolecops (we got Elbrin already) and my role which scum would be good to know where I was if I didn't claim makes me a little paranoid.

Lets just break this down:

Town: Me, Elbrin, lufan
Prob town: d3x, Aristo
The Rest: kthnx, Mainez, KJ, Jingle
Scum: Flames

Mainez then just targets one of the rest, myself or d3x (add Elbrin if Flames is Morty)
Aristo targets Jingle

Right?

Still no hammers, lets not be foalish and muck up something we should be taking a large advantage from.

[Rainbowdash]

And KJ getting his ability means we know what it is. I don't really see it being incredibly powerful for scum because in that case one of his buddies just fakes a guilty and he lies about who he predicted. If we know what it is, then we can figure out his alignment based on the role itself and how he uses it. This is like D1 shit, RDB, and you know better.

What possible scenario can you envision where KJ can be confirmed town off what he gets? He would not only need to have landed a provable role but one that is provable by something the mod does and makes him town. What is to stop him from getting something like a RB as scum and then claiming he got a doctor and just protected somepony who didn't die?

I cant see him ending up being proven town, so I cant see any reason to leave Flames alive to prove his role or anything like that.

I would still really like to see lufan vig either KJ or kthnx and then Mainz actually start targeting players out of the pool (me, Jingle, and whoever isn't vigged - add in Elbrin with a Morty flip). I would really prefer kthnx vigged based off of what d3x brought up.

My preferred actions:

Lufan kills kthnx
Mainez JKs one of: me, Elbrin, d3x (we are trying to stop the kill here)
Aristo targets Jingle

Biggest reasons for kthnx needing to be vigged tonight

1) He targeted the claim that made the most sense with the role cop. Things like the JK flavor seemed by far the weakest yet he went with what may have actually been the STRONGEST match up.
2) What d3x brought up. Heartless appears to have been killed by targeting Flames, which means that its likely Elbrin was the scum target, which provides some merit to scum being afraid of killing d3x which is minor scum points to kthnx
3) I still don't like his vote on Jingle from day one that seemed to be based on wanting to lynch Jingle instead of hunting for scum.

Good thing is Flames has basically scum claimed.

Can we get agreement from the town block on these? Or anypony breaking these actions?

[Rainbowdash]

Biggest reasons for kthnx needing to be vigged tonight

Biggest reason for kthx not to get vigged tonight: no way in fuck the tracker and the one shot cop claims were both scum.

He claimed role name cop. Not cop. Big difference between the two, they are barely even on the same spectrum of roles. We also already have a specific role cop (Elbrin)

Also if Flames is who he claimed, why would town even need a role cop assuming scum actually have no problems claiming their real roles? I could absolutely see scum having a role cop if they gain some sort of advantage for finding certain roles, or just wanted to speculate on roles.

The role simply makes no sense to be in the hooves of town if Flames flips the character he claimed because it would be completely unnecessary

[Rainbowdash]

What? Are we saying Scary Terry might be a realclaim? 'Cause I assumed that was a fakeclaim, given that Terry actively saves the protagonist's lives. And no, it makes perfect sense. El is a neighborizer, who can conditionally get a guilty on one player assuming it's not a red herring, which it could be. Heartless was a weak doc, which can get one guilty ever, with a setup with a miller (presumably kills the weak doc or there's no point) and a reflexive busdriver. There's a bunch of protectives with severe drawbacks. There's no way in hell we don't have some form of investigation at our disposal, and I don't buy weak doc and neighborizer as it.

Character sure works well as a tracker doesn't he? Also I think they spent half of the episode trying to kill the protagonists before being tricked into helping them. Do you think Flames specifically got a tracker fakeclaim or what?

Also weak doc is a VERY strong role if used right (trying to target town), and unless mod switched things up they wouldn't be killed by a miller. We have investigative roles. Weak Cop + Specific character cop. That is not too much weaker than normal, especially if scum isn't all that strong role wise. Isnt a Weak Cop + Character Cop + Role Cop (which is essentially a normal cop by your claim) way too strong?

What if Flames flips Scary Terry? Would you at least agree that it would mean that kthnx should be vigged then? What about him targeting the role that fits perfectly with flavor instead of a questionable one? How does Xenon Bloom even work as a role cop?

Even *if* somehow Flames flips some random non-Terry character, how does that actually make the role cop more likely to be town? Like I said that makes three strong town investigators, like I have said, scum has quite a bit to gain from a role cop. Likely me. Possibly others we don't know about - remember that we already have a few connected roles.

Now could you make towncases for Aristo and Lufan?

Aristo is being locked down and given my role would have to be hurting scum to have made that move last night. I am more than fine calling him prob-town for that move. Whats the worst case? Scum eliminates my power and your power with their role?

Lufan is a vig, which is why he is killing kthnx tonight to prove that and confirm himself to be town. Scum wont have a vig. I have seen that once, in a very large game.

[Rainbowdash]

Shouldn't we just auto-vig kthnx if Flames flips Terry though? If that is what he really is, that means the role cop is completely useless in this game for town since scum either don't have or are not using fake claims

[Rainbowdash]

Well, Kthx Cop'ing me is not alignment indicative. The two of us have known each other iRL for a couple decades and I don't remember a single game where he's been a PR {Town or Scum} and hasn't Targeted me N1. While I agree that the choice was rather sub-par, considering the opportunity to crack the game further, there is vast precedent for him to check me out as soon as possible.

Nah. I am a big fan of lynching players who are going out of their way to not follow optimal play. Especially when they are fairly scummy by themselves to start. He may as well have just thrown his role away with what he did. At best he is town who has shown unwillingness to cooperate with the rest of the town, and in a situation where there are a large number of clear or semi-clear players that he is not a part of, he needs to die.

WhAt? Ambiguous roles dont mean he can't be town. They mean that he's not as powerful as a full cop. I don't want him shot because he's town. Simple as that.

Again. Explain to me how a role cop is at all useful for town if scum are claiming their real characters. If Flames flips Terry, lufan is killing kthnx.

For that matter since you seem interested in flavor - explain how kthnx is what he really claimed. I somewhat actually remember that episode and I don't get how that flavor matches at all. Even if you want to argue flavor of being a "bad guy" he is a character that the protagonists left to die.

[Rainbowdash]

Again: Yes or No - If Flames flips Terry that means kthnx needs to be vigged because it means that there is no town utility to have a role cop.

I don't think I am ever going to see kthnx as town, and he is probably going to be dead one way or another by the end of the game. I just want him to die and prove lufan as town all at the same time. Also d3x check was the worst possible check except for me, unless you are now trying to argue that characters have no bearing on alignment, because who else could possibly have been a self-targeting bus driver than Rick? Target Aristo, target Mainz, target KJ, heck even targeting Flames makes more sense. He went with what was probably about the worst move he could make, is not in the least bit "cleared" so yes, I want him dead and will probably be voting him out the gate tomorrow and never moving my vote if I have the chance.

Who do you want lufan killing? Because Aristo and KJ are the only other player who makes even a remote amount of sense to kill for him, and we need him to kill ASAP to not only prove his role and confirm him as town but also to make it so we are back not needing a no lynch late in the game to bring numbers to odd.

"Not enough investigate power" is just a cop out. Weak cop - great role. Morty cop - well there is apparently another cop for a specific mafia member. JK - that becomes almost an investigator when there are lower number. Motion detector - that's an investigator. Are we really going to have a fifth role that is really strong like that? Doesn't it make sense for scum to have a role cop instead of town have a specific role cop and a role cop?

What has kthnx done that is remotely town?

Voted Jingle while creating a false dilemma between one of Heartless/Jingle have to be scum?
Entered the game with a bunch of fluff null reads?
That his entire case on Jingle was "he is being fake"?
That he is not paying attention to the reason anypony else voting Jingle but kept repeating his "fake" mantra?
That the entire reason he voted RIP was the miller claim?
That he tried to push a lufan wagon after the whole lynch that wasn't a lynch thing?
That he targeted one of the worst possible players with his action?
That he never mentioned Flames once?

I would actually like you to name some things he did that would possibly suggest he is town. Because even if I wanted to I would be hard pressed to actually make anything that resembles a decent town case on him. He is at best liability town due to his N1 action.

@lufan - If Flames flips the character Scary Terry you are shooting kthnx tonight to prove your role. If there is somehow a hammer without us having figured it out entirely for if he flips something else - you are still shooting kthnx tonight.

[Rainbowdash]

Mainez is probably town due to lack of anything getting screwed up last night. If he even just targeted RIP that probably would have got the scum kill through and made RIP likely to be lynched/vigged, which would then end up with what looks like an inevitable Mainez death. Even targeted Aristo would have had the same thing happen.

Still think kthnx is scum. I don't buy the "balance" argument too much here because im not convinced character cop is really anything that balances either way with any strength. I have used what Elbrin is as a cop before as a mod, but made it very clear that they were a cop and would get a guilty on a few characters, not sure I have ever seen a character cop as town. Why not just call them a cop in that case. Add in that he lied about his role AFTER he saw us mislynch day one due to it and then claimed intent to again throw away his action, im pretty ready to just nuke them. That and their entire post ignored quite a few reasons as to why he is scum that has nothing to do with roles and was just a OMGUS fueled chaos.

@lufan - You are still shooting kthnx outside of something changing from town block (me/Elbrin/d3x) consensus. Jingle is just blustering about the SK thing and either way there are enough of us that would keep you alive that his vote wouldn't come into play.

@Jingle - Way Rick can be scum is if mafia is Rick and Morty. Its been a mild paranoia for a bit, but I don't think its happening and if it is we already have one scum locked down. Also who should lufan shoot? KJ? If you are on the "role trying to confirm themselves" tear, Mainez is a bad kill because if he stops the scum kill that would confirm him as town. And of course I got a PM saying I was VT now, I would have been trying to get Aristo lynched if I didn't.

[Rainbowdash]

The only other option I see happening tonight is that lufan kills KJ who seems impressively nonchalant about what is going on, Mainz tries to act as a doctor, Aristo VT shots Jingle and kthnx hits Mainz who has horrible flavor (and if he targets elsewhere he moves into auto-lynch the next day).

It just seems quite the inferior path to take, and you are getting played by kthnx changing up his role as soon as you went off saying that town seemed weak and needed his role to be balanced.

One more think I am thinking of:

@kthnx - Do you think your role is actually useful? Like you are trying to say you want to target me, but would any result actually change your mind? If not, why even bother making the move?

[Rainbowdash]

Lets make it fun so we get where everypony stands.

Vig votes, add yours to the list. Remember this is for killing tonight, assuming it has to happen because we need to prove lufan sooner rather than later (no voting no vig)

RBD -> kthnx

[Rainbowdash]

Sure Rick could be scum with Morty. But how the fuck is rick and Morty a dark coalition? Do you even read your posts? More to The point, how would summer be scum? Snowball? Scroopy fucking nooples? The argument that flavor cop is useless to town is born out of the stupidest fucking line of thought in the world.

How do you know how flavor works in this game? What if mod literally just made a few random names and made them scum "because" and then built flavor around it. Its been done before. How is Summer a JK? How is Xenon a role cop? How is Jessica a neighborizer? How is Lenord a motion detector? How is Scroopy a VT creator? Not everything makes sense flavor wise.

Do you really think we have four town aligned investigative roles (motion detector, weak doc, morty cop and role cop)? If you think kthnx is town then we would have four investigators countered by what are you saying... something like tracker + limited shot JK/whatever KJ is/limited shot VT creator?

Also what about all the non-role reasons that kthnx is scum? And what about how he never responded to anything against him? Or how his flavor is bad? Or how he is again trying to investigate players who have flavor that makes sense?

Its kthnx > KJ/Aristo > Mainz/Jingle

[Rainbowdash]

Speaking of which: d3x, stfu about the vig kthx for lying BS. If I claim anything but 1 shot yesterday, I'm dead last night. You know this therefore your wish for my head in this instance is ridiculous. It'd be like asking a vig to shoot a Hider that claimed Cop b/c he lied to live and get town more info. You should be ashamed. Not to mention you know this is how my brain works.

With a claimed weak doctor AND bodyguard you thought that telling the truth about your role would get you killed?

[Rainbowdash]

Plus if you were the biggest threat to scum... wouldn't you have been dead no matter what? Like a one shot cop is still a one shot cop... why would scum let you get away with that if that was your fear in the end?

I just think you are trying to do anything to stay alive another night here. Either you are town who lied about their role and misused it, or are scum. Either way its a great vig shot.

[Rainbowdash]

@kthnx - What result did you get? Rick or Rick Sanchez? Also as I have stated - is there actually a result that you would get that would chance your read of me? If not you are wasting your shot (if you get one) for a second time.

@Jingle - You should target Aristo tonight. Prove your role if it actually does something.

Actions for now:

lufan kills kthnx
Aristo VTs Jingle
Jingle visits Aristo
Mainez JKs one of: Myself, d3x, Elbrin (Elbrin can pull himself from the pool by saying such here if he wants)

[Rainbowdash]

Post 723 holds as night actions. Phone now. More after work if not yet hammered. Luan breaking from vig target wrecks other actions. Just ignore jingle who is now just playing antitown with that vote

[Rainbowdash]

Post 723 holds as night actions. Phone now. More after work if not yet hammered. Luan breaking from vig target wrecks other actions. Just ignore jingle who is now just playing antitown with that vote

Fuck that noise, you're playing antitown by IGNORING A FUCKING BREAKING STRATEGY.

Lufan, vig me. Leave kthx alone to confirm someone as town.

Except only you think its game breaking. Every other player has said you are wrong about it, and I have broken games multiple times. You are wrong about it. Again. Even if somehow kthnx lives he is just getting autolynched tomorrow no matter what he claims as a result this is just hastening what you think is a useless process. Remember he said that he is targeting me (and has refused to say that any result would change opinions) so... he gets Meeseks and then gets lynched. Fairly non-productive.

Lets just for a moment humor you and say you are right. Why did scum try to kill a player that is not kthnx? They tried to kill Elbrin? So they are more concerned about a specific role cop than a role cop? Really?

Post 723 holds. Deviating from that is considered a scum claim. Its going to be kthnx + KJ/Aristo/Mainez. Once Aristo, Mainez and lufan all acknowledge this and what they are doing I will hammer.

[Rainbowdash]

;p how rude. I won't shoot if there's this much drama over it, anyway. I'm fine with no-action.

No. You are killing kthnx tonight to prove you are town. Jingle is the only one who is complaining and the rest of the game is telling him he is wrong. Volume does not equal correct. It actually usually equals wrong because there is so little logic behind it its all they have left.

@Jingle - I could absolutely care less what you are trying to push because there is SO MUCH that can go wrong. He could be a role cop and scum, that will just end in uselessness and wasted time. He could again refuse to do a remotely useful thing and just make a bad target, then he will just get lynched again wasting more time. He is scum and throws up a false guilty, that probably ends in a mislynch. He could be scum and put a guilty on a partner. He could be town and every role is exactly who they claimed so its a useless role. The slot is dead pony walking at this point. He is getting lynched today, vigged tonight, or lynched tomorrow.

Your entire logic is that he is town who has been lying about his role, using it poorly intentionally, will actually change that, and that scum decided to try and kill a specific character cop over a role cop.

Vote kthnx

Lets just do it this way instead.

@All - If you want kthnx vigged (which appears to be a clear majority), just vote this way instead until lufan actually makes his vig kill known to be him. That way lufan can just vig conf-scum Flames instead.

The only way kthnx should be allowed to live under any circumstances is if he is lynched immediately after claiming his result tomorrow, regardless of who it is on and what it is. Even then, money says its a useless result. To reiterate

If somehow kthnx isn't dead by the start of tomorrow he gets lynched immediately after claiming, NO MATTER WHAT he has a result

@d3x - Can you confirm that his "result" is correct even if you used your role?

[Rainbowdash]

Aris Vanillaizes Jingle.
lufan Shoots either kj or Aris.
Kthx checks out Mainez while Elbirn checks out Jingle. Barring a blatant guilty from one of our NameCops, we Lynch Kthx Tomorrow.
Mainez JKs RBD.
I keep my Portal Gun Target close to the vest.

With the exception of kthnx getting moved from "possibly lynched" to "lynched immediately after he claims his result regardless of what it is" I could live with this one. Because if he is scum you are giving him an entire night to come up with a good fake guilty on a player. You could probably come up with a good fake on any of the questionable flavor matchups in a few minutes, let alone an entire night phase.

[Rainbowdash]

@Pony- You're telling me even if Elbirn finds Morty, you'd rather Lynch Kthx? I'm sorry, but I'm not in that camp. While I think that there's a better than random chance that he's Scum, I will Lynch ConfScum over him every time. Just curious, aside from trying to game the setup, do you have a case on Kthx?

I was referring to a result from kthnx being a "guilty". If Elbrin gets one we just lynch that target and then kill kthnx the next day.

I have pointed out a few mane things on kthnx though such as:

1) His entire entry into the game is a list of reads that seems to say "well I think X... but maybe im wrong so null read". Note he also apparently is a town role cop here and says he feels uncomfortable about my role claim and he DOESNT target me?
2) He creates a false dilemma early that one of Jingle-Heartless has to be scum
3) The case that he has against Jingle is "Jingle is fake". That's literally it. While apparently having no idea why anypony else in the Jingle wagon is voting for Jingle.
4) Him saying that he is exceedingly confident that d3x is town for the counter of RIP and then investigating him is another huge strike against him for his role target
5) As a CLAIMED ROLECOP he is unhappy about a mass claim. That is literally the best thing he could have happen on day one if he is a role cop.

Even without the thing like "lying about his role" I want him dead. He has played scummy, not acted like a role cop at multiple times, made an investigation that went against all his posted reads. I don't see how he can actually be town here with that play.

[Rainbowdash]

Looking at her claim while now not town-reading her also points to scum, not town. If you really look at it, all it is is a, 'If I'm tracked or watched to a NK, it wasn't my fault guys.'

Which is exactly why kthnx is scum. If he was town I would have been his N1 target if he actually believed this and the attack isn't just an OMGUS fueled one. What town, ever, has this type of a problem with claimed flavor and then decided to target a player who has flavor make sense? It sure makes sense for scum to ignore these thoughts though, because it leaves options open.

@kthnx - So was my move to actually say nothing and hope that there was no town role that could produce a false result on me?

[Rainbowdash]

My biggest concern there now is his protection of Aristo. If Aristo flips scum, RBD is 80% scum. If he flips anything other than vanilla-izer, RBD is 100% scum. No doubt in my mind here.

Aristo is good to keep around because even if he is scum he is actually helping town out through confirmable actions right now. He is about on equal ground as KJ to be scum as a second pick though to go with kthnx right now though. Still a low priority because he is locked into having to do things. I could easily buy Kthnx + Aristo, but Aristo has been actively helping town.

Also stop saying Mainez is scum. If he was scum he just JKs Heartless last night and then Heartless has a false innocent on Flames. I had been thinking the whole "he could have messed with Aristo" meant that he was town unless Aristo was scum until just recently when I realized his true correct action was just hitting KJ and stopping him from actually successfully targeting scum, therefore living and all of us treating Flames as confirmed town.

Its a simple plan, I doubt scum missed that one. Due to that I doubt Mainez can be scum.

[Rainbowdash]

d3x in 760 works well enough for actions.

Just remember that kthnx immediately dies tomorrow outside of Elbrin having a guilty. Worst case if he somehow has a useful role (yeah right) it means we would still have a confirmed player. But that would require him being town and making intentionally poor moves, so I doubt it.

[Rainbowdash]

lufan needs to claim kill shot
jingle needs to claim if they are now VT
Titus needs to claim their target

In that order.

Please no pony else talk until that happens because I think I see what may have gone down last night. Spent the last couple hours trying to work it out and there is one thing sticking out that I think catches two scum. Maybe more

[Rainbowdash]

Fourth should be an open claim for who took away kthnx vote

[Rainbowdash]

[Rainbowdash]

So now that we have everything, time to break down what happened last night into groups:

~Confirmed Actions~
Jingle -> kthnx
Aristo -> Jingle

~Claimed Actions~
lufan -> RBD
Titus -> KJ
kthnx -> Titus

First we need to look at lufan which the lack of kill points to one of

1) lufan did not kill
2) Titus is lying about her target and it was me or lufan
3) d3x targeted me and lufan kill directed to d3x

We can eliminate 1 unless lufan is playing an impressive scum gambit
We can turn 3 into a 1v1 between lufans kill being redirected and kthnx lying
All that's left there is Titus lying, or that there is something else going on

Then we have kthnx and his result which means

1) He is lying
2) Titus returns a Rick result
3) d3x targeted Titus

So unless im completely missing something, at least one of kthnx and Titus are required to be scum here at this point.

@KJ - If you think kthnx is scum and no flip (or claim from him) will actually change that, then there is no point to no lynch.

I still am thinking of a kthnx vote, but by actions it almost seems too easy. By how he has played though and just balance of the game (we really have a weak doc + tracker + motion detector + role cop) I don't see him being town here. Only real hangup is that kthnx would have apparently needed to just guess on the action.

Ugh... I need to just get out a pen and paper late on to try and figure everything out.

[Rainbowdash]

@Titus - How are you getting that Jingle is scum? A scum vote thief is basically a free "lets move LYLO up a day secretly" role. You also apparently think that its me, Aristo and Jingle as scum, we all decided to claim roles that would make sense to target each other before the game started and then pushed hard for a D1 massclaim?

Anyways... here are a few of my reads at this point after sleeping on it and what has been happening.

1) Jingle is town. Again, I don't see a vote thief for scum, especially with some weird shenanigans going on.
2) kthnx is scum. Apart from him being scummy just based on play this entire game, his role also sticks out badly. For him to be town it would mean town had four investigative roles at least (motion detector, weak doctor, tracker +/- role cop and morty cop) with two of them being very strong ones.
3) The only way I am alive is if
a) kthnx is scum lying about his role (I actually 100% expect kthxn to flip role cop - just scum role cop)
b) Titus is lying about who she targeted
c) lufan is lying about who she targeted
d) There is something else for scum we don't know about (redirector, blocker, etc)
4) Titus is town if kthnx is town (it would assume scum tried to kill that role)

Just looking at some very bare bones reasons that we have scum kthnx though

1) He lied about his role due to "fear of being NKed" while ignoring the fact that we had a weak doctor and a tracker claim already. It only changed when he was getting votes D2. Note him being scum one shot rolecop could solve some of the "what happened last night" shenanigans.
2) For him to be telling the truth town would need four (at a minimum) investigative role group
3) More WIFOM, but if he was an actual useful role as he claims to be... why did scum either submit a kill through KJ (blocked by Titus) or try to kill Titus?
4) If he was a role cop, isn't a massclaim just about the best possible thing that could happen D1?
5) Assuming I am town for all others... wouldn't it make sense for scum to have a role that is searching for me?
6) He opened the game with a ton of null reads and trying to create a false dilemma between Heatless and Jingle
7) He had no idea who else was voting Jingle with him at one point and had no idea why they were voting him
8) His N1 target
9) His VCA is massively scummy since he is basically just manipulating two forgone lynches to throw dirt on players

Im not moving my vote

Vote kthnx

[Rainbowdash]

@RBD, You have a bad habit of actually skipping a few steps of logic this game. Clearing Jingle based on his role claim alone is bad. You should also see the glaring NAR problem with Jingle's claim that I do.

You actually haven't really shown why he is scum yet that I have seen. Also yes, his role is pretty powerful for scum to have. It gives scum an extra player essentially if Jingle is scum. Unless there is good reason to think otherwise that role is a strong town tell.

Also how does "vote steal" and "turn vanilla" factor into NAR? Again you are saying that Aristo is scum who decided to fake claim being a vanilla-izer role in an attempt to be able to eliminate the vote steal scum role at a later point for town credit? If either of them are scum, they are going to flip the exact role they claimed. I cant believe that that was a coordinated fakeclaim between two roles. The entire basis of what you are pushing is that scum did a massive amount of coordination of what roles they had and what was claimed and how those would all interact pre-game without having any idea of what town had. If nothing else trying to lock down that much before a game starts is bad SCUM play because it removes the essential fluidity of being able to adjust well on the fly.

Second, we look at the votes. The Jingle wagon dismantled because it was too fast, not because Jingle did anything townie. There's not much in the way of scum on Jingle's wagon either.

Actually it was because it was a baseless wagon on a horrible premise. Remember that the other half of the Heartless wagon who started it said it was a dumb tell? That and players like Mainez who you replaced were saying things like "Oh yeah Jingle is scum for that tell" and then immediately followed it with "what is DC". If Jingle is scum it was luck that wagon formed since more than a few people on the wagon didn't even know what was happening.

You also are apparenty (since you are calling Elbrin town) in the camp that town has five investigative roles? Also your vote is wrong, since by the logic you are hawking Aristo being town would mean everything else you are pushing NAR on falls apart. You are trying to say scum has a redirect, so if its me/Jingle/Aristo... the only way that can be true is if Aristo is lying about his role or targets at this point.

Also where are you getting the kills from?

kthnx says he targeted you and got a d3x result. That would mean that d3x targeted you
lufan says he targeted me and d3x is only kill. That would mean d3x targeted me

Both those could not have both happened obviously.

So either

1) You were not the d3x target, meaning kthnx is confirmed scum for his result. The missing scum kill would likely have been JKed by you and KJ is scum
2) There is another redirector role and it was from me to you and then moved to d3x

I think those are your two options. The biggest concern to me is what happened to the second kill. It disappears by

1) You blocked Mafia-KJ who was submitting the kill
2) Mafia killed KJ
3) Both kills were either on or were redirected to you

We can easily take that one step further and bust #3. If I was mafia, and wanted to target you to start... why would I also redirect to you? The right play would be to redirect elsewhere. The fact that there is only one kill points AWAY from a redirector moving the vig kill to mafia target because you would want to point it at town you didn't already expect to die.

Lack of two kills means that you stopped the second kill with the JK.

Its kthnx + KJ (who you blocked from sending the kill last night) + probably Aristo but not for sure.

[Rainbowdash]

Here we have an action, Aristo's Vanillaizer that could not be modified by any other action. The roleblocks have unquestioning been accounted for. None of them hit Jingle or Aristo (we know this based on the claims already presented).Aristo hit Jingle. If that was true, then Jingle would have been a vanilla by the time Jingle had his action.

So basically you are risking the entire game on the fact that you think the vanilla-izer would resolve before the vote stealer right? I could see it working a few different ways, and could easily see the mod having designed the role to resolve at the start of the next day so it doesn't function as a roleblocker.

Your final night actions are also just a bad conclusion. Lufan basically claimed that I would be her shot... so if that is true how can a scum redirector exist? Saying that they would redirect to you doesn't work because why would scum redirect a vig target to who they are already killing. Also why redirect to KJ instead of to Elbrin who targeting would basically be putting the nail in the coffin of kthnx?

Really. Play that out as me as scum, and tell me how two kills don't happen. Scum is targeting you, lufan had expressed intent to target me. How do we end up where we are if I was scum? Even more if Aristo can turn players vanilla and have it stop their actions.

I will even give you exactly what happens if that is the case with your proposed group:

Jingle steals from KJ
Aristo turns you vanilla stopping your action to prevent anything from going wrong
You get NKed
Scum redirects to Elbrin

You and Elbrin are dead, kthnx and KJ are lynch bait

[Rainbowdash]

Yet the falls apart in the exact same spot each time, where scum apparently decide to redirect to KJ. Why would you ever redirect to KJ?

Lets just for a second think about the targets for your hypothesis: KJ, Elbrin, kthnx, lufan. Kthnx would be out immediately because he would be the mislynch. lufan would be BP for the night. So KJ (player who has expressed some suspicion of kthnx) and Elbrin (who would be a cop threat to scum presumeably) are the targets. How does KJ die there?

Here is what probably happened last night:

lufan targeted me
d3x targeted me (dies from lufan)
you targeted KJ
KJ targeted ???? (submitted the kill)

In all cases though, why does scum ever try to redirect to KJ? It would be a low priority possibly lynchable target. It would be the WRONG MOVE if I was scum. All of your scenarios would mean scum intentionally made a suboptimal play.

Its kthnx + KJ + ??? (probably Aristo)

[Rainbowdash]

It's a sub-optimal play to try and get two kills?

Remember, scum have to try and shoot who is NOT being swapped with the bus driver. Shooting obvious town isn't going to work.

Self-bus driver.

Line up shots of two town. What is the worst thing that happens in that case? d3x eats one of the kills?

Again, assume you wanted you and Elbrin dead. Two of You/Elbrin/d3x die.

The only way there was one kill is one of the following scenarios

1) Scum targeted you. Your death got directed to d3x. Scum redirected to lynchbait KJ. KJ was protected
2) Scum targeted me and lufan targeted me
3) Scum targeted ???. d3x targeted me and got redirected. KJ was scum submitting the kill. KJ got blocked.

Its really simple.

Either KJ got protected or he is scum (since 2 is highly improbable). If he is scum, than kthnx is also scum because he was lying about his result.

There absolutely does not need to be a scum redirector, when scenario 3 accounts for everything if KJ+kthnx are scum. KJ got blocked sending in the kill, kthnx is lying about the result in an attempt to screw up all the available information.

Can we just fast forward at this point? The splits are obviously forming. Jingle/Aristo/myself all are pretty much in a scenario where kthnx and KJ have to be scum, those two are on the other side.

[Rainbowdash]

Jingle/Aristo/myself all are pretty much in a scenario where kthnx and KJ have to be scum, those two are on the other side.

Nice try, but no. KJ is the only one I'm even somewhat sure on atm. You and Aristo could still easily be scum.

If KJ is scum kthnx is confirmed scum and I am confirmed town as well because of the following chain:

KJ got targeted by Titus, blocking the kill from being submitted (that's where scum kill went)
If that is true, that means that the kill on me was directed to d3x as he targeted me
If that is true, it would be impossible for kthnx to have had a "Rick" result from Titus

Its a package deal. Either both of those are scum or neither are scum.

Also yeah, Aristo can be scum but I think chips have fallen such that even if he is scum with kthnx and KJ his vote is forced today outside of a quickhammer that would end the day. A day from now or a week from now, its going to be one of each group up for lynch.

If we have to lynch KJ before kthnx fine, but both are scum and we either lose today or those are our next two lynches.

[Rainbowdash]

Kthx not faking a guilty appears really townie to me there.

Who could he have made a fake result on without being in serious trouble? Who could he have created a fake guilty on? Not lufan. Not you. Not d3x. Not KJ (he is scum with him). Elbrin? That would have got kthnx lynched. Jingle? He had no idea what was going to come from Jingle so its hard to pin that down if that's the case. Me? Not if a kill is already getting redirect off of me.

He had no option to fake a guilty that didn't result in him getting lynched. His ONLY option would have been if Aristo is town, and even then I likely would have been voting kthnx over Aristo there and he should have realized that one.

Also are you now admitting to thinking that kthnx-KJ have to share an alignment?

@Jingle - Why are you ignoring the very likely scenario of kthnx simply having lied about his result?

Said NAR problem is present regardless of your/kthx/kj/RBD. Given we need a scum bus driver, it must be in the unproven actions.

We don't need a bus driver if kthnx lied about his result if you just go:

d3x targeted me
KJ submitted scum kill
kthnx is lying about his action for confusion

[Rainbowdash]

Given we need a scum bus driver, it must be in the unproven actions.

So who is that?

It cant be me (Due to Aristo)
It cant be Jingle (he is proven)
It cant be Aristo (he is proven)
Im betting its not lufan
If lufan is town it cant be you

So its Elbrin/KJ/kthnx then right?

So how are you getting KJ and kthnx are town again?

[Rainbowdash]

Given we need a scum bus driver, it must be in the unproven actions.

So who is that?

It cant be me (Due to Aristo)
It cant be Jingle (he is proven)
It cant be Aristo (he is proven)
Im betting its not lufan
If lufan is town it cant be you

So its Elbrin/KJ/kthnx then right?

So how are you getting KJ and kthnx are town again?

None of you are proven.

So then you are basing your entire theory that myself, Aristo and Jingle are scum and made up our fakeclaims before the game for this one exact gambit? Well Jingle is proven either way so let me get this straight...

Your theory for this game is that as scum with Aristo I decided to fakeclaim out the gate (horrible scum play to start) and then push hard for a day one mass claim as a scum bus driver so I could have my scum vanilla-izer partner "target" me N1?

THAT is a conspiracy theory. Think about what you are saying there.

[Rainbowdash]

It's not a conspiracy for you to claim vague roles and work together. T looks like this will be decided tomorrow.

But we have already effectively proven that Aristo is exactly what he claims.

Again though, your argument is that I made up my claim day one as what you are saying is a scum bus driver (again - possibly one of the worst moves scum can make, its even bad in most situations for a miller to claim out the gate) and then tried to push hard for a massclaim which I knew my partner would claim what he was and then have him target me out the gate?

Really? It just doesn't make sense to do something so complex and commit to it so hard out the gate. Scum win games when scum has options. Scum lose games when they back themselves into a corner. The amount of extremely risky specific plans and claims and pushes not only doesn't line up with my style of play, but it doesn't line up with simple optimal play.

You still have not answered why you think Ari is scum.

I have said he is most likely scum with KJ and kthnx, although I do not for sure think he is scum. I would not vote him without those two being dead first.

Really can we just fast forward to the point where we lynch one of KJ/kthnx vs Aristo? Nothing else really can happen here today as all other players require another to be scum first or are town reads.

[Rainbowdash]

@RBD, if you feel like further talking is useless, vote no lynch.

Actually I think that there is a decent enough chance we actually end up with KJ lynched, and I would take that over a no lynch since the result of that is pretty likely.

I'm not. But the simple fact is that I was made vanilla, which means I CAN'T be the votethief. Unless someone else wants to change their claim, that means scum stole kthx's vote, and I really fucking doubt that they would've stolen one of their own's vote, especially if there was a chance this was LYLO.

Who says that's the order of actions? Also there is a hole in that one. Lets look at it this way

Elbrin is clear - Not him
Lufan is vig - Not him
Eliminate you from your stance
Titus is what happened to that kill - Not her
kthnx is role cop - Not him
Aristo is VTizer - Not him

So unless you are trying to say that I am the vote thief with Aristo as scum and eliminated out partners vote who is really a bus driver... yeah... it makes far more sense that Aristo action just resolves last in all of this and you did that to KJ. I don't think it works any other way due to what is being said about a driver going on.

It cant be me (Due to Aristo)

Aristo is a vanilla-izer, but if you were scum together, you weren't necessarily vanilla-ized. Hell, he might've only been one shot.

Same response to Titus though on that one. Apart from it being horrible play for scum to play the way I did it cant be me without Aristo being confirmed as scum first. Really though, how is it remotely sound play to have played day one like that? Wouldn't it have been better to not even bother with trying to push out a massclaim and just have Aristo try and use his power to give the finishing blow to a lynch bait player?

Out of curiosity though for you... if you are calling me scum with Aristo... who is the other scum? Elbrin is still clear, lufan isn't scum... if you are assuming you aren't it means one of Titus/kthnx/KJ would be scum. Why is it bad for KJ to be lynched? You seem to openly think that he is scum and that would pretty much wreck scum since it would all but confirm you and Titus as town.

[Rainbowdash]

@Aristo - Try again. Remember that Flames tracked RIP to Elbrin N1. Unless you are claiming that RIP was actually directly targeted by scum (he was lynchbait), that confirms Elbrin as town. Also where did the lufan kill go to? It got blocked somehow unless both scum and lufan and d3x targeted me.

We can also play the same game as I just did with Jingle. Who is the bus driver that must exist in your scenario?

Cant be me because you target me N1
Cant be Jingle due to his action being confirmed
Elbrin is "confirmed" town
Lufan is town
Titus is probably town here due to missing kill
Remove yourself

Again its KJ or kthnx from your perspective. At least one of them is required to be scum from your perspective if you are town here given what happened. So which one is it?

More confident on it being Aristo with kthnx and KJ now at least. That was a horrible post.

[Rainbowdash]

Oh wow it really is KJ, kthnx and Aristo. That's awesome.

His argument seriously just was "Bus Driver is Elbrin or kthnx, I think kthnx is scum and to avoid voting him here is a conspiracy theory where scum directly targeted RIP who most of the game thought was scum I am voting elsewhere". I mean... you not only managed to just float a theory that has me and kthnx on the same team but ALSO floated a theory where kthnx is a bus driver role cop and used that logic to vote me. You also are missing the somewhat obvious way of having stopped a kill if I was scum. Bus drive lufan and me.

Really?

What part of his justification of him voting me after saying "kthnx is the scum role cop/bus driver" makes ANY sense? Even MORE given that apparently im scum with kthnx who I have been saying is scum since D2.

Its those three. That massive reach by Aristo basically confirms it where he does some impressive tricks before ending up on the convenient vote. Ironically he ended up on the vote that most of the game actually needs him to be scum before I actually work. He should have just bussed KJ, got lynched D4 and then hoped for my lylo lynch.

@Aristo - Do you really think kthnx has two roles or is he just lying about being a role cop?

[Rainbowdash]

And did we ever find out if it was for just this dayphase or for the rest of the game that the vote was gone for?

So now you not only are saying scum has a vote stealer (which would move up lylo one day) but a permanent one (which essentially is four scum confirmed)?

I mean... this is just absurd at this point.

Aristo is now claiming the scum team is:

Me who asked to be hit by VTer N1
Elbrin the bus driver (which means scum tried to kill RIP N1)
Jingle the possibly permanent can target every night vote remover who would make lylo one day earlier

I am alright with a NL or a vote on RBD, Jingle, or you. I said exactly that.

Can anypony else see the issue with this and his question about Jingle being permanent/multi-shot? If Jingle was a scum multi-shot or perm vote remover and we no lynched scum wins.

This is not town who is trying to catch scum. This is scum who tried to fight back when what they should have done is rolled over and died or bussed a partner.

I subbed in during nightfall. No one knew my jailing action. I selected based on similar thinkings to kthx's post in the thread. Prior to my/kthx claim, scum would be under the supposition that D3x subbed with their target. If kthx is scum, that's still the supposition.

Why do you think kthnx faked the result on Titus? Think of it this way:

You are scum and try to kill Titus. d3x is the only player who dies. What do you automatically assume? d3x must have targeted Titus. Now you don't KNOW this is true. Maybe KJ submitted the kill and d3x targeted me. What do you fake claim there as scum who needs a role cop result? What you think might be true: Titus returns a d3x result.

[Rainbowdash]

I still see no real problems with any of this and your reactions here really aren't helping you.You're cherrypicking my posts for things you think you can spin against me.You're leaving out things I have said on the same page.You ask me to consider another option, and when I give it some thought and give you my only plausible solution to it, you explode on me for doing so, saying it's ridiculous I would come to such conclusions.

Im just wrecking your theories actually because pushing for a no lynch while thinking Jingle is scum is putting everything on him having been one shot when he actually never said he was.

There is no way for us to actually know if Jingle is one shot or not right? Not unless there is a second loss of vote. You however are entertaining the idea of a no lynch. If he is scum and multi-shot or permanent that OUTRIGHT loses the game for town. 7 alive, only 3 town with votes. That is game.

Again, how is Jingle scum? Why does he even use his action there is he is scum? Shouldn't he just say it must not have done anything public? Or maybe RBed? And then use it the next day?

You aren't town because town would actually have thought about this at some point. The whole "hey I think Jingle is scum but if he is multi-shot we lose" thing? Yeah.

Town would not be talking about a no lynch while thinking Jingle is scum here. Scum who doesn't realize what that may mean would though.

Just for the record with Aristo we are now at him trying to push:

Elbrin is a scum bus driver (RIP was killed directly N1)
Jingle is a scum vote stealer (so essentially there is an extra scum)
A no lynch is acceptable with a scum vote stealer in play

All of his theories are centered around not letting KJ be lynched. He seriously ended up with "either Elbrin is the bus driver and scum killed lynchbait BG night one or kthnx is a role cop bus driver" over things such as "Titus blocked KJ who sent in a kill". We lynch KJ today, town might still be able to pull out a win. Anything else happens I think its over.

KJ + kthnx + Aristo

KJ got blocked and is pretty solidly PoE as the scum who is screwing with stuff
kthnx is just obvious scum due to his play and his role at this point
Aristo has melted down and keeps pushing stuff that doesn't make sense for town to push

[Rainbowdash]

The math is that scum cannot have a 2 shot vote stealer or the game is over more than likely.

Or you just assume that if that was the case Jingle says he targeted whatever player he wanted, it must have just RBed them or something like that and then pulls out the vote thing when going into lylo for a win.

Remind me why you are conftown. Please.

I can do that one.

N1 RIP (dead bodyguard) was tracked to Elbrin. RIP was a player quite a few wanted to still lynch, I don't think scum burns a NK on him there directly. Yeah its possible, but it doesn't make sense for scum to pull that move. Again another reason why I think kthnx is scum. It would mean that scum viewed Morty-cop as a bigger threat than role cop N1.

[Rainbowdash]

Stupid auto sign in phone.

Point holds

[Rainbowdash]

Yes. It's Jingle RBD Ari.

We lynch that pool or no lynch.

You too?

How do you ever come to a "no lynch" as a result there? If Jingle was multi-shot that could be a forced scum win if you just assume something like...

N1 I bussed myself and Flames
N2 Aristo didn't VT Jingle
N3 Jingle vote nullifies and scum win

If you think that Jingle is scum, ESPECIALLY if you think he is scum with Aristo there is zero reason to lynch here. Zero.

Its KJ or Aristo today. I want KJ because I think thats the only way town can win it even though Aristo is still a great scum pick. Aristo voting me is a joke since every single theory that puts me as scum requires Aristo to be scum first. Have you still ever seen Aristo go more out of the way than he is here to NOT vote a player?

[Rainbowdash]

more when not on phone but today is either a NL or RBD. there are a ton of scenarios where kj, lufan, jingle and ari are scum with rbd, but I don't see rbd town in any of them.

Oh lets play this bus driver game with you then:

Who is it if Aristo is town?

Not Aristo - He is town for this theory
Not Me - He targeted me N1
Not you - Remove yourself
Not lufan - They are town
Not Jingle - That role is proven
Not Titus - Me being town is only other way there is one kill last night
Not Elbrin - See N1 actions

So then if I am scum... KJ must first be scum due to driver needs yes?

Look how impossibly hard both Aristo and kthnx are reaching to try and justify a lynch of me. Aristo is saying that scum directly killed RIP and that is his justification. kthnx is apparently pushing that KJ has to be a driver (or lufan is scum who fakeclaimed being a vig) and due to that I am scum

BOTH are essentially saying I am scum because of somepony else being scum first or some other extreme reaching theory.

I mean really... to justify a vote we have the following theories:

Aristo says that scum has a vote thief, bus driver and that scum directly targeted RIP N1 with their kill.
kthnx is floating the idea... well he isn't really saying much of anything. All he said is that titus and Elbrin are town and then refused to elaborate on any ideas. More importantly he hasn't presented anything that leaves me as scum with Aristo as town yet. Which I still have not seen from anypony. Look at the above game with kthnx. Apparently I am scum... but in that scenario KJ is confirmed scum for being driver first? Yet... yeah that's called scum trying to go for the final lynch.

Look how massively hard both Aristo and kthnx are fighting to keep KJ alive in situation where KJ basically HAS to be scum from each of their perspectives. No other player could be the driver for kthnx (although he is apparently about to argue that lufan is scum - which would then be a prerequisite for me being scum). Aristo has resorted to saying that Elbrin is scum in order to somehow not come to the conclusion that KJ is scum.

These theories of theirs simply are not rational. They are starting at a conclusion and then desperately trying to make it true by doing things that no pony would naturally think. Is your first thought at this point "boy lufan must be fakeclaiming scum?", maybe its "boy scum must have targeted RIP N1 and RIP just happened to target scum"?

Nah... its because those are beyond negligible results.

@Titus - I would vote Aristo to stop a no lynch, but KJ lynch is better because it starts locking down scum quite a bit more. It clears Jingle. It clears you. Lots starts becoming clear at that point.

[Rainbowdash]

@Titus - Unless scum decided on N1 to directly kill the Miller-BG who most of the game thought was scum and he just happened to target fairly common town read Elbrin who is really scum... that makes Elbrin confirmed town.

On that note everypony who thinks that Elbrin is town should have kthnx as essentially confirmed scum, because that would mean that N1 scum tried to kill a specific character cop instead of the role cop claim.

Note how we have kthnx refusing to play the "who is the driver" game because it forces KJ to be scum for him, and the only ones trying to argue hard that Elbrin is scum? The ones who are using that as the only reason KJ isn't confirmed scum for them. Before this happens, kthnx has just ignored Elbrin the entire game and done nothing to stop players from calling him town. You would think a "town" role cop would have immediately mentioned that Elbrin being targeted as a scum kill was odd wouldn't you? It would be like if you were a sane cop and then someone claimed tracker and they were roleblocked instead. It just doesn't make sense.

Its KJ + kthnx + Aristo. kthnx and Aristo are aggressively trying to not have to vote KJ. All of them are now flipping on Elbrin being town which they have been either supporting or ignoring the rest of the game saying that. kthnx and his horrible targets. kthnx and ignoring that Elbrin claimed a weaker version of his role yet somehow was targeted first for a scum kill. Aristo ignoring that KJ would need to be the driver...

These are scum trying to justify an action and not town coming to a conclusion. Just look at kthnx. It goes from me pointing out to be a bus driver Aristo must flip scum first, to then him immediately saying "well maybe its Elbrin then".

[Rainbowdash]

I find you're avoiding voting Aristo just as much as they are.

Its almost necessary for me to play this way at this point.

If we lynch Aristo and he flips scum, I become more likely of what scum are going to assume is the mislynch. If we lynch the KJ part of the group first, Aristo would then be a lynch, and at THAT point town should be able to finish off kthnx since the pieces all fit nicely.

[Rainbowdash]

Regardless of whether Ari is lynched first, you would still be there choice to mislynch and given my paranoia (assuming you are town), I would still be alive. I am not seeing why you are reluctant to vote him.

Go back to the bus driver game though.

To you, the driver would have to be one of Elbrin/KJ/kthnx.

I think its safe to assume that kthnx is a role cop, a scum role cop but still he is a role cop. If KJ doesn't flip driver, the only way I would ever be lynched is if you are trying to argue that Elbrin was a driver. Is it self-interested to want Aristo alive when most scenarios that put me as scum due to the bus driver scenario require Aristo to be scum first? Of course. It still makes it the best move as far as I am concerned though for the first lynch to be KJ. He flips scum, Aristo gets lynched (super quickly if KJ is non-driver) next and then we end up in a situation where we are able to basically confirm one of kthnx/Elbrin (its kthnx) as scum due to the N1 actions.

Lets go back to that N1 thing though, its been something that was glossed over.

Scum targeted one of two players directly: RIP, the Miller-BG who everypony thought was scum or Elbrin, the Morty Cop claim. Both of those are concerning targets.

If they tried to kill Elbrin, that should confirm scum in kthnx because that would mean scum tried to kill a specific character cop over a role cop, which presumably would also return a positive result on Morty. RIP... just doesn't make sense as a target. He was floundering all over the place and would probably have been lynched. That does take us to another level of: Have you ever seen a town role cop and miller in the same game?

Its kthnx-KJ-Aristo.

I want town to win this one because that scum team is not in the least bit deserving, so we really need to lynch KJ today. Anything else town is going to lose this one.

[Rainbowdash]

Rbd how come you have this beautiful argument for lynching kthx going on that makes me want him deader than hitler, and then you say we should lynch kj?

Because I know the support isn't there. Need to either present a confirmed partner or have certain flips

Oh nvm kthx is scum role cop and you want a dead redirector.

Are you so certain that the redirector is kj, and not ari?

Because I know Aristo is what he claims. I got targeted by him N1.

Only ones that CAN be a driver at this point to me are KJ and you.

Aristo is proven to me
Jingle is proven in public
kthnx I don't think fakes role cop
lufan im trusting is town
Titus I think blocked the kill

So its you or KJ. KJ makes far more sense, he dies here.

[Rainbowdash]

On that note everypony who thinks that Elbrin is town should have kthnx as essentially confirmed scum, because that would mean that N1 scum tried to kill a specific character cop instead of the role cop claim.

Except that kthx was in the d3x pool and Elbrin wasn't.

Okay so N1 we essentially then have one of

1) Scum directly killed RIP over Morty Cop and Role Cop (at least one of kthnx/Elbrin are scum)
2) Scum tried to kill Morty Cop instead of Role Cop, killed RIP (kthnx is scum)

Unless scum decided that a Miller-BG is more of a threat to them than kthnx AND Elbrin (which also would leave it a super weird scum team), one of those has to be scum. Right? Not to mention that kthnx-town should have targeted d3x last night this time (as if d3x died you have clear town) but that's a completely different thing

Seriously though... doesn't just simple reasoning from that suggest that one of Elbrin and kthnx essentially has to be scum here?

@RBD, we lynch the obvious scum first. Obsessing with the redirector does nothing unless you are assuming Maine's wifomed the number of shots we have and I am playing along. You, Jingle are both Vanilla. Elbrin's supposed to die. Lucian is essentially vanilla. FYPOV, what is there to redirect? Why not lynch the obvious scum?

Im not worried about a redirect. Im worried about following days. With a lynch of KJ first I think kthnx is an easy final lynch to win the game.

[Rainbowdash]

Okay so N1 we essentially then have one of

1) Scum directly killed RIP over Morty Cop and Role Cop (at least one of kthnx/Elbrin are scum)
2) Scum tried to kill Morty Cop instead of Role Cop, killed RIP (kthnx is scum)

Or scum were trying hard not to kill d3x and RIP to leave them as valid mislynch opportunities and they thought they were gonna kill Elbrin, leaving flames to eat a guilty lynch and discrediting kthx where possible. Which is actually pretty likely if you're scum.

So then you are arguing that either lufan or Titus is scum? Because if this is your logic you should have no problem lynching KJ in that case since he would have to be scum if neither lufan or Titus were.

As far as the concern about lynching KJ first, it makes sense from scum you if he's town. I'm now slightly interested in the Aristo lynch to see if he's gonna flip 2-shot. If he flipped 1-shot, you'd be confscum and KJ would be conftown (at least in my book) which would explain why you're so adamant to see him get lynched first. If he flips 2-shot, that at least adds credence to your (and my) claim and we can use the additional information to work out the actually difficult decision.

Ah... so lufan or Titus ARE scum with that line you are pushing... or I just want to apparently bus KJ before Aristo? Either way, if Elbrin and kthnx are both town and Aristo is scum... you need one of KJ/lufan/Titus as scum too.

You also think that Aristo as scum would claim MORE shots than he actually had? It also adds no credence to either of our claims, and I think you know that.

[Rainbowdash]

The concern is that kthx, you, aristo is a possibility.
In which case I lose if we lynch kj today. Kthx and you both going hard after a kj lynch supports that.

I would actually prefer a kthnx lynch to KJ lynch given the chance. I just don't see it actually being able to happen without a flip from at least KJ, and probably also Aristo, to back it up. Also kthnx is doing everything in his power to NOT end up voting KJ. He is calling you and lufan scum to avoid having to call KJ scum.

@RBD, Presume there is no Morty and that Elbrin is a named townie... then what?

Then its even more reason to lynch kthnx. If Elbrin is town and Morty Cop with no Morty existing... wouldn't that point even stronger to kthnx scum?

[Rainbowdash]

If there is a scum with a vote already on either or on both wagon, they would not have the numbers to quichlynch.
Alternately, if everyone on my wagon is town, as am I, then Kthnx is scum and thus they can't quicklynch.
(This all assuming you removed his vote but did not gain an extra one).

So then you are trying to argue one of Titus and Jingle are scum since they are the ones voting you right? I mean... if you are town by your own logic you should be voting there since you would have one of them confirmed scum if you are town right?

[Rainbowdash]

if I still had a vote, I'd be pushing for rbd still

Which is why you are scum.

Remember the bus driver game? The one where I showed that from your perspective would put it as KJ? That you then suddenly started talking about Elbrin and lufan being scum afterwards because it trapped you in a corner?

Lets also not ignore that Aristo has two votes. So unless you are going to argue that Jingle or Titus is scum... that's ANOTHER reason you are going way out of the way to vote a player who logically... you cant end up with as scum without a different flip first.

Just let me understand everything here... you are saying that the scum team is a vote stealer, me, and Elbrin who is a bus driver who decided to out the gate claim a searching role? Basically the entire scum team claimed out the gate?

Doesn't anypony else see how absurd that idea is? If that isn't reaching, I don't know what is. Things like that is why kthnx is scum here.

[Rainbowdash]

RBD, I like how you seem determined to either not read entirely or not understand my posts, picking whatever you feel like.

One of Titus or Jingle. Sure.
Have I not scumread Jingle? I believe so.

For this scenario, there is also a scum on Kthnx, which is either KJ or you, or Kthnx is scum.
Guess what, I have a scumread in that group too, and happen to be pushing it!
If I thought we could get a Jingle lynch today, I would be there. But since that isn't going to happen, I think I have my vote right where it is needed.
On scum.

Again. Logic fail.

Where is the Driver there? Cant be Jingle. He is proven. Cant be me. I am VT due to you. So... its KJ or kthnx. Are you trying to claim that kthnx is a scum driver that has been fake claiming being a role cop? Or is it KJ for you then?

Seriously. You are saying Jingle + Two of [Pony/KJ/Kthnx] and there has to be a driver. Driver can only be one of those three (hint - it could only be KJ) and then voting elsewhere.

[Rainbowdash]

I love how it went from "Oh its two of these three" to "include Elbrin" when I pointed out a fallacy.

Just for the record too... now you are saying that Elbrin as a bus driver immediately started asking where Morty is out the gate to line up a neighborizer claim right?

[Rainbowdash]

RBD, good scum have good narratives. In Signs and Void, I left myself a VTish fakeclaiming in my narrative. People bought it but for singer.

I still have a super hard time buying that a bus driver decided to strongly crumb a searching neighborizer that's specific target may or may not actually even exist out the gate. Especially in the scenario that Aristo is floating, but I think most of us have him as somewhere in our scum group to start either way.

[Rainbowdash]

Then why aren't you voting Kthx?

Because he is scum with kthnx and kthnx is more valuable to keep around. If kthnx dies here it makes it much harder to mislynch me. If Aristo dies here nothing changes there.

But yeah. Kthnx + Aristo nearly 100% now. Due to lufan though kthnx lynch is the correct first one.

Are the ponies who aren't voting kthnx think that Aristo is scum just trying to posture to get kthnx-town lynched? And that scum either directly killed RIP or targeted Morty-Cop over role cop? Or that a town role cop would actually make the two investigations that kthnx did?

Aristo absolutely needs to vote kthnx in his next post.

[Rainbowdash]

RBD, I think Ari is scum regardless of your alignment. He could be hammer posturing on kthx, bad at scum with you, etc. An Ari flip where he is not vanillaizer scum firms you. A vanillaizer flip suggests but does not confirm you are town. You could be avoiding voting Ari because you are scum with him. All rational roads lead to Ari scum.

You are not defending Ari and refuse to vote him. That's a neon flag you're scum with Ari if your last comments about kthx Ari have any weight.

I will not be voting Aristo with lufan still alive here. She will be left alive and lose the game.

All rational roads to me are leading to kthnx scum at this point. Elbrin is already voting him. Aristo should be voting him. KJ has expressed interest in voting him. Why should I not be voting him?

[Rainbowdash]

Aristotle is scum and thus will not vote. KJ voting kthx should suggest they are unaligned. Elbrin voting him just means you persuaded him better than me.

So then with those four voting kthnx and him not getting hammer he would be confirmed scum to you right?

If kthnx is town, and it dosnt end with me, KJ, Aristo and Elbrin voting him. It would mean the pool has three scum in it. You already have Elbrin as "conf town" and you just said that would suggest KJ-kthnx aren't scum together.

@Aristo - Its basically your call today. Either you are voting kthnx or you are getting lynched. Nothing else can possibly happen.

[Rainbowdash]

Call me dumb or whatever, but can you gimme that bilded part again?Are you saying Lufan is town or scum here and what does that have to do with my own alignment?

Im saying im pretty sure lufan votes me with you flipping scum. With kthnx flipping scum I think lufan actually will rethink things.

Hmm, I was not expecting Ari to vote here.... interesting... but it does fit within a RBD/Ari/Jingle universe...

So we are going back to a universe where Aristo/Jingle are both scum? How does that one work again?

[Rainbowdash]

You aren't vanilla. That's how it works.

If those were the roles why does Jingle actually use their role last night (im just going to assume if they are scum they are one shot to prevent an easy forced win)? In that case scum would have just said that Jingle did something, leave that a mystery, and then ended up in a spot where if there ever was a no lynch Jingle activates his role and scum auto-wins. You know how easy it would have been to just push through a no lynch today if that was the setup?

Also it doesn't account for the fact that Elbrin would have been the "second kill" instead of what you are apparently claiming in KJ since as Elbrin has pointed out AND you agree with, Elbrin is confirmed town. How was there one kill without KJ being saved or blocked?

You are trying to create a scenario where you are right here.

[Rainbowdash]

Such roles are deactivated in Lylo.

RBD, you are not vanilla in that setup. You changed yourself with KJ being the most likely.

Why KJ? As we all have discussed already Elbrin was confirmed town. From perspective of scum there, you send off two kills to the top two town reads (using what "happened" it would be you and Elbrin). It ends with both dying or d3x and one of them dying. If you JKed KJ the bus drive would just move it off of him either way.

So I drive myself with KJ... lufan is now killing an unprotected KJ as bus drive resolves first
Aristo kills You.

How does KJ (again - him over Elbrin) not die there?

One of a few things happened

1) Scum and d3x targeted me
2) d3x targeted me, you blocked KJ
3) Scum killing KJ
4) Lufan being scum
5) You targeting Lufan

RBD, if lufan would vote you after an Air flip, we need to remove Air scum today and pray our protective roles lied and duck things up for scum. The lufan issue will always exist. It's a lame copout. If you think Ari is scum, vote him.

Actually lufan issue doesn't always exist. If we lynch kthnx today it would force scum to take lufan to F3 (as Aristo would still be required to first be scum) which could reduce chance of them being town fail link. I think that with two scum takedowns lufan would be able to reconsider things. Sometimes you have to lynch in a correct order, this is one of those situations. You cant honestly expect lufan to vote a player that's not me tomorrow with an Aristo-scum flip.

It's between Kthx and no-lynching for me today. Want a votecount though.

So ready for kthnx lynch now? It actually looks like its happening.

Also double good is lynching him actually confirms Titus as scum in that small off chance. You getting something catches her in a lie there.

Now im super paranoia-ing myself so need to step away for a second.

[Rainbowdash]

You didn't answer how KJ doesn't die.

If scum bus drove the kill to him, the JK would have been bussed OFF him as well.

I bus drive myself and KJ
Other scum targets you.

JK moves to me
KJ dies by lufan
d3x dies by redirect

What happened last night. How does KJ not die?

[Rainbowdash]

D3x swaps with me.
Kthx gets legit result.
D3x dies because scum tried to kill me.

I try to jail kj.
You swap kj with you or lufan.
Thus you or lufan is in jail, meaning no nk of you.

Yeah look at your second part.

You target KJ. I target myself and KJ. Bus drive resolves and you target me, lufan targets KJ. KJ would have died.

Why did KJ not die there?

How does lufan not kill you in your scenario?

I already mentioned all of the possibilities

1) d3x targeted me (kthnx is scum and lying) and scum either also targeted me or KJ got blocked by you
2) lufan is scum (so no second kill existed)
3) You are scum (targeted lufan for frame)

[Rainbowdash]

None of those explain the NAR problem.

If I was driven with KJ it means you targeted me, and lufan would have targeted KJ. That means KJ would have died.

Where is that wrong? Where is the second kill?

[Rainbowdash]

The NAR problem is frankly how did Jingle steal kthx vote?

Where does "turn vanilla" and "vote steal" fit into NAR? I could very easily see a mod deciding to resolve "turn vanilla" along the mod notes line of "

if action is successful player turns vanilla at end of night

" meaning that it doesn't act as a roleblocker

Why won't you vote Ari if convinced he is scum?

Because kthnx is more scum by a large margin. Very large margin and its been growing fast. Im letting this day go to no lynch before voting him.

You can either line up the kills or fix the NAR problem but not both.

So where did the kill go? Can you come up with any scenario that isn't one of what I pointed out? Are you going to just dodge that whole question?

How is there only one kill? Give me scenarios. Same question to everypony else. Show me some situations that I did not already bring up that actually can explain only one kill.

[Rainbowdash]

I already fucking did. Jingle RBD Ari.

What happened last night then? Where did the lufan kill go?

It couldn't have gone to KJ. If I got bussed with him than I eat the JK and KJ eats the lufan kill. Where is the lufan kill?

[Rainbowdash]

You swapped KJ with you or lufan. I already said this 10 fucking times.

If I swapped KJ with me KJ would have died. As previously stated.
Swapping KJ and lufan would be just gambling on what you did and what lufan would do... so that's out based on logic

So neither of those work.

What else you got?

[Rainbowdash]

While it is possible kthx is scum, that NAR must be resolved to conclude anything.

We have two separate things occurring.

The first is with the kill. The second is with Aristo/Jingle.

I am asking about the kill, which has absolutely no bearing on Aristo/Jingle here. Those are two different interactions between players that have zero overlap.

[Rainbowdash]

The problem is you are trying to speculate how two VERY non-standard roles interact.

Not sure I have seen a game or mod that makes JK resolve before driver though.

[Rainbowdash]

Thought...

@Mod- Does this setup follow NAR?

Yes.



Also: Aristophanes and Mainez have been prodded.

I'm not gonna point at the link to NAR that the mod said he was using, where NAR is defined. I promise.

Boy will you look at that. That page sure suggests the bus drive would happen before the block... and that Vanilla-ize and Vote Steal both being miscellaneous would happen at once.

Now we play the waiting game... because I think this should prove to Titus that one of KJ and lufan are apparently guaranteed scum or something like that.

[Rainbowdash]

If lufan tried to shoot RBD, he should be dead. The only way that does not happen is if lufan never shot RBD, d3x swapped with RBD and thus kthx lying, or RBD was swapped with KJ who is safe bc she is in jail.

That third thing would result in KJ being dead though. So we know that didn't happen.

From your standpoint saying you are town there are only three ways that KJ is alive today

1) lufan is scum
2) I am scum and used a bus drive to lufan (which is basically wasting a free second kill)
3) kthnx is scum

Which is it?

No. It does not RBD. A vanillaizer modifies a player and thus would go before Jingle.

From what was linked:

An example of two actions that interfere without affecting each other:
Player 1 vanilliaises Player 3;
Player 2 gives an invention to Player 3.

In this case, the order of applying the actions affects whether player 3 loses just the abilities they had at the start of the night, or whether they lose the invention as well.

Again, there is no conflict if the players pick different targets; for instance, if player 1 targets player 2, then the gift of the invention has absolutely no effect on the vanillaising, so the vanillaising (which would prevent the invention being given with some variants of Vanillaiser) happens first.

That last part is critical if you replace "Invent" with "Nullify vote". Replace with names in this game and it becomes. It says that how it resolves is up to the mod.

which would prevent the invention being given with

some variants

of Vanillaiser

It ends with a "up to mod". It is filly possible that Jingle nullified the vote and then was turned vanilla. (note I actually did misspell fully there, but it would have been foalish of me to ruin a good pun)

@Jingle - If there was a vote stealer who could it be? Especially since you also need a driver as well?

Cant be Aristo
Cant be me (I am VT and even if not would have been RBed or lufan/Titus are scum)
Cant be kthxn (he isn't lying about role, just alignment)
Cant be Elbrin (he is confirmed town)
Cant be Titus (unless you are calling lufan scum with Titus)
That leaves... KJ and lufan as required to both be scum?

kthnx is a beyond excellent lynch today. It actually catches Titus if Titus is scum and KJ is town. If KJ is scum it might just turn it into an easy 1v1. If KJ is town, it proves Titus town to him.

So yeah, its not "confirmed one of Aristo/Jingle" because its a mod decision on how the roles are resolved.

[Rainbowdash]

RBD, you don't place invent with nullify vote though. Jingle's vote steal wasn't an invention given to him but an ability they had at the start of the night.

I would consider things like "Invent Object" on the same priority level of things like "Remove Vote". Its absolutely a modifier that is given to him for the night more or less. Its an action that doesn't fit commonly into other category types, so would resolve all at the same time.

No one's even fucking scumhunting it's all PR bullshit I'm honestly bored out of my goddamn mind.

If you vote kthnx that makes four unique players having voted him today. That one can easily happen here. He is scum based off his past actions, and the setup breakdown only makes it more strong of a case. Its not like I can really add anything new since he hasn't done anything all day today.

@Titus - So is it lufan, KJ or kthnx scum? One of those is absolutely required given role resolution there from your perspective.

[Rainbowdash]

No. You are the bus driver.
Ari did not vanillaize.
Jingle is vote thief.

That theory works with the facts. It is possible that theory is wrong. Ari is scum to me under either theory.

Where is the kill then?

Either I drove myself with KJ in which KJ dies (as lufan targets him and you target me) or I drive with any other player, and they die instead. It literally was a free second kill for scum. Are you suggesting that I intentionally drove the lufan kill back to the only player who would be 100% for sure protected due to their BP ability?

Lets just play it out as to what my options in that case would have been:

1) Let myself die
2) Bus Drive to you (who we are already killing, which would just kill me)
3) Bus Drive to lufan (kill guaranteed to not resolve)
4) Bus Drive to KJ/Elbrin/kthnx (they die unless you JK me)
5) Bus Drive to d3x (whoever he targets dies, this couldn't be true without kthnx-scum first)

We know its not 1, 2 and not 5. Option 3 is out since that removes a free second kill for scum.

So its #4. Yet there is one kill. The ONLY way there is one kill and I am a driver is if the kill went to the one player who was guaranteed to be unable to kill (lufan).

I have put my answer forward many times for what happened since I know I am town:

1) You are scum and targeted me or lufan in order to frame
2) lufan is scum so a second kill didn't exist
3) scum targeted me (kthnx is scum)

@KJ/Elbrin - Lets finish kthnx here. Its what makes the most sense and as I have said, if Titus is scum it either forces scum to kill KJ or catches her.

@Titus - Or both of them. That remains a possibility.

[Rainbowdash]

RBD, stop repeating yourself. KJ is in jail and thus protected or lucky scum swap.

From NAR

1. Copy
2. Hide

3. Bus

4. Block

5. Redirect
6. Protect
7. Miscellaneous

8. Kill

9. Recruit
10. Inspect

First the bus happens. KJ and I swap spots.
Second the block happens. You intend to target KJ but target me.
Third the kill happens. lufan intends to target me but targets KJ.
KJ is only being targeted by lufan
KJ dies

[Rainbowdash]

If kthx is telling the truth
Then d3x is confirmed for swapping with titus.

Correct. kthnx as town would mean Titus is town or scum who returns a "Rick" result.

If d3x swapped with titus
and lufan is telling the truth about his target
then rbd is only not dead due to scum interference.

Correct, but where would the kill have gone? As above it means scum would have redirected the kill at lufan who would have been impossible to kill. Anything else results in two dead.

If kthx is lying
Then d3x swapped with rbd, kthx lies to set up rbd, scum either no killed or targeted killer jester?

Or targeted me, but again - Correct

If lufan is lying
...why is he lying?

He could be. Not like he could change his claim at this point either way.

I think this is what holds for you. One of the following is true as to what happened last night

1) lufan is scum (lufan is scum)
2) Titus blocked the lufan kill (Titus is scum)
3) RBD and lufan were bus driven (RBD is scum)
4) Mafia and lufan targeted RBD (kthnx is scum)

Granted its not only guaranteed one of those (like we could feasibly have a lufan/kthnx pair with 1 or 4 having happened) but at least one of those must be true to you.

[Rainbowdash]

The order you posted should only trigger if there is a conflict between actions.

So you really think that your JK resolved before a bus drive would have?

Those roles are in conflict from the start when they target a similar opponent.

Either you bus drive X and Y before or after Y is blocked. How do you determine what happens first? I could say the bus drive should not be able to be modified by a swapping action, or I could say a swapping action should not be able to be blocked.

Its not like you are trying to argue the cop got to his target before the framer. JK or Driver could be argued that they resolve first, so you go to the list, Driver resolves first. More or less the "emergency list" is how to just resolve the actions on any given night, you go down the list resolving them one at a time.

Anypony actually agree with Titus on that one? At all? At most I could see you argue "mod decision" but everything suggests that a bus drive would take priority over a jailkeep.

You are basing your entire reason to think kthnx is scum on "JK resolves before driver". What if the rest of the game tells you that logic is faulty? Would you vote kthnx then?

[Rainbowdash]

Still obviously kthnx.

Notice how he actually pipes up when he is getting possibly lynched to put more laughably bad logic out there.

Like how he says that Aristo is confirmed scum due to being at L-2 at not hammered... when the only players not voting him were me, KJ and Elbrin... one of which is already confirmed town. At least he actually committed to calling Jingle town no matter what at this point though. Or thing like Aristo-town was not being quickhammered. When one scum (kthnx) couldn't vote Aristo and another to start which sure make a quick hammer hard. Meaning town-Aristo would need to have been getting bussed (one of Titus/lufan) and KJ didn't have hammer options, I was visibly getting nervous that that was the case and Titus was trying to pull the mislynch to end the day.

If that's not desperation I have no idea what is.

Also, if ari flips scum, and I die tonight, remember that rbd is morty.

*sigh*

Don't game throw on WIFOM.

[Rainbowdash]

@rbd, k you right that came off wrong.

I do not have a guilty on rbd.
I'm just saying I believe she is morty.

Then have kthnx target me and you target somepony else. You get the result on me either way that way and if kthnx by some miracle (like mod error that has never been noticed) is town helps out.

Granted kthnx will likely waste his target for a third time either way, but it helps some.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah I was two shot, used up. Unless I got Roleblocked? Either way I'll try to submit an action, can't hurt.

Rbd you suggesting to me that kthx target you is just lol

Its the better option if you both had a shot. Since kthnx has already lied about his role once I could see him having another shot here. Whats the worst case? He just turns it into the 1v1 we all already were expecting?

[Rainbowdash]

If I have a shot, why would me doing the target ever not be the best option? I'm ME. I don't have to worry about me lying to myself, or any of you for that matter because I'm conftown. I'm also functionally only able to find morty. I was born to target you, trained for years in the sacred art of morty detection. Truly it is my calling.

If kthx targets you, he could be a liar, hell he could even not target you, or he could be your scum buddy and make up some bullshit. Like every part of your suggestion is pure inefficient whatthefuck that does not make any sense from anyone's perspective

If you are looking for one character in particular, best play is to target a fringe suspect. If you target me and then you get the "Not Morty" result that accomplishes nothing. It doesn't clear me at all in the eyes of anypony. If kthnx targets me, he either gets the truth as a result, or he fakes something. If he is faking something, as long as its not Morty you cant bust it.

Break it down by who gets what starting with you

Morty (guilty)
Not Morty (ambiguous)

For kthnx:

Meeseeks (depends on Aristo flip - innocent or ambiguous)
Nor Meeseeks (guilty)

You cant get an innocent. Depending on what kthnx is he *could* get one. So isn't it better for you to target elsewhere were a "Not Morty" still means nothing as opposed to kthnx who gets a more concrete result on a player who is lynchable?

Its really a case of "Who should investigate the lynch bait - the one who gets guilty or unknown or the one who gets innocent or guilty"? Kthnx would be better. Period. He either clears me if he is town, or lies of he is scum. Perfect result. I either come out clear, or its a 1v1.

[Rainbowdash]

I actually thought we had lost right there until Aristo started acting like he was scum and it was kthnx-KJ-Titus/lufan at that point because I didn't think KJ would have made that move as town. The fact that and even if Aristo was scum he was forced to buss kthnx tomorrow meaning I had one less town to convince was more, but the Aristo wagon actually scared me into not voting him.

I was Evil-Morty, and could control RBD to perform the scumkill each night. I controlled him to kill Elbirn every freaking night but was prevented by various means. N1 RIP guarded him, N2 d3x swapped with RBD but I was jailed so our kill failed.

How? I was vanilla so had no abilities past N1 outside of extreme bastard modding.

[Rainbowdash]

How? I was vanilla so had no abilities past N1 outside of extreme bastard modding.

oh yeah, that was a nice little surprise mod note. vanillaizing you didn't actually strip you of your "you make the scum kill" status.

So awesome... bastard modding as well because of...

The magic of Science! has vanillalized you. Any powers you previously held have been taken.

Nice to know mod was directly lying to players.

[Rainbowdash]

Meh, not worth it.

Its impossible to win an argument against somepony who is not grounded in reality to start. Remember, he didn't almost get mislynched with only one scum calling him town. He wasn't trying to get lufan or Yakko lynched for the second half of D1. He was right about everything the entire time.