Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

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Howdys!

Just checking in really, on board tomorrow. (Woot holidays ) I don't have much familiarity with Dr Who aside from watching the originals a bit as a youngster.

So as not to waste our vote in the meantime I'm happy enough to sheep Mala. I thought BROseidon's attempt to engage was pretty towny, and agree with a slight townlean on Plotin Kittehs right now. Also didn't care for Kuroi's post.

VOTE: KuroiXHF

-t

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Heh, mokay.

I do try to behave myself a bit in this hydra, it being quite the privilege to work with mastin. That said it looks like she'll be on V/LA for about a week coming up soon - I haven't spoken with her since confirming in the queue, but have my sources.

So you'll be stuck with me for a bit I reckon. Plenty of time to figure me out :)

-t

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Adaptive, do you think Kurio's post is wrong or scummy? Note the join date.

Both I guess. It struck me as a nothing-comment with the sole purpose of drawing further attention to Persivul. I didn't take into consideration the join date but I haven't seen a beetlejuice tell used this early in a game before.
I thought it was a bad tell being used as an excuse to say something slur-ey against another player.

For your own consideration then, what do you think about the motive behind the comment from Kurio, considering it comes directly on the back of your vote on Persivul, and FAQ's response to him as well?

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Is Persivul's first post

right

after someone's voting on him indicate his possible lurking?

I might be misinterpreting the meaning of what you're saying here so I'd like clarification.
Persivul had posted a lot before the post where he responds to the vote on him, and the game had been running for about 7 hours.

What do you actually mean by "lurking"? And do you find it scummy?

I just scanned ahead and read your Post 89 by the way.
If you don't find it scummy or towny, why did you mention it?

-t

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So...posting outside hydra 'cause it would take me too long to go through the process of getting into my hydra.
But basically: I spent today traveling to get to my grandparents' house. Which, y'know...has the archaic internet of nightmares. (As in: it takes five minutes to load a page. We're talking early 90s dial-up here.)

I can only post during the night, and I'm rather tired today. The holidays are going to be hell on me.
For obvious reasons, don't expect me to be playing much for the next week or so.

Particularly given that I'm supposed to be playing as a hydra. (My partner will have to quote this.)
Hydras are supposed to coordinate their reads and whatnot and what to do with their role if applicable.
I read my role PM, so I know what I am, but that's about all I've done; no communication has happened with talah yet.

I'll

try

to see if I can get a post in within the next two or three days or so, but...not tonight (too exhausted), and probably not tomorrow (because...Christmas, duh).
No promises. Guarantee I'll be active once I return from vacation, though! (Because, yeah, I can do that now. I just haven't had the time right now thanks to trip preparation.)

^us
-t

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For your own consideration then, what do you think about the motive behind the comment from Kurio, considering it comes directly on the back of your vote on Persivul, and FAQ's response to him as well?

Personally, I think it's just as likely a result of reading Persivul's ISO or the game thread as an attempt to intentionally slur. Given this game's experience requirement, Kuroi cannot be a newbie, so my read on this post goes back to being pretty null. It could be the result of him coming from a different format. I saw it as a question rather than a slur.

I can be okay with that, but let's say he reads through Persivul's ISO and notes that it's been 2 hours since he posted and then pops in to say LOL I KNEW in response to your own vote.
Fact is there were 2 RVS votes sitting on Persivul at that point, you'd added a serious vote and FAQ had come in and also responded to him in a sceptical manner.

Kuroi then "observes" the lurking he's seen and wonders if that's also scum... but makes no analysis into why that might be aside from the observation he's made.
Hm, okay, maybe.
What do you think of the instant connection with Not_mafia, then? To my mind they either have recent history or Kuroi just latched onto the replace for some reason.

Also I want to know - why you'd think that Kuroi's comment regarding lurk is more likely newb-town than newb-scum considering his first post and his follow-up (which were both decidedly testing waters)?


---
FWIW the flavour pretty much states we can see all of our incarnations, right now.

You were summoned to a High Council of the Time Lords but as you look around, you see only yourself. All 13 incarnations of yourself, and no one else.

For my part I'm hoping Tom Baker is a bad guy XD
But yeah initially I thought it might be rolefishing considering the role posted by the mod.

-t

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VOTE: Soren

Must I need a reason?

Their first post is literally asking the thread if he needs a reason, rather than just posting it naked (which would draw some kind of attention) or making up a reason (ie random) or just saying it was random.
Why are they asking if they need a reason?

BTW, I forgot to add this before but I've never watched Doctor Who.

Hate me for that if you must but when it comes to interpreting moderator write-ups that involve the show's references, I'm not going to be of much help.

Second post is defensively assuming they'll be attacked at some stage. And saying, hate me for not knowing the theme.
I think the implication is, don't hate me for rolling scum this game.

Then there's the "observation" that Persivul might be lurking.
Whether that's incorrect or not, it's unlikely that you say something like that as town unless you're trying to scumhunt, and think you might have picked up on something.

They then go on to renounce this same obvservation as null. Why?

I stand by what I said and all I noted was an observation. Not a vote, not even a FoS.

And no, I won't get an avatar - not until I feel like getting one.

I feel like the statement about the Avatar may just be the towniest thing they've said so far.

The most recent three posts are Kuroi:
Making a buddy or familiarity post about Not_Mafia (I still don't know what's going on there since they didn't address it where I commented in 167)
Unvoting from RVS and not committing to another vote
Making a comment about Persivul which now says they *do* in fact have a slight scumread there.

While I do have a slight scumread off Persivul, I don't think he's stretching himself thin, especially not by pointing logical fallacies.

@Kuroi

1) Can you please explain just what your read is on Persivul and what it's based on.
2) Can you tell me what history you have with Not_Mafia and why he's someone you "can trust"?
3) Please address my questions here:

Spoiler:

Is Persivul's first post

right

after someone's voting on him indicate his possible lurking?

I might be misinterpreting the meaning of what you're saying here so I'd like clarification.
Persivul had posted a lot before the post where he responds to the vote on him, and the game had been running for about 7 hours.

What do you actually mean by "lurking"? And do you find it scummy?

I just scanned ahead and read your Post 89 by the way.
If you don't find it scummy or towny, why did you mention it?

-t

Whoops, sorry.
^This is us

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Actually in future if I mistakenly post out of hydra I might just re-post it as the correct account so that responses can be quoted more easily (and ask the mod to delete the original).
Not PLANNING on it, but just in case O_o

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My last lean town was Not Mafia, which is the weakest as it was only based on his calling out Rob in 96. BUT...I neglected to factor in that Kittehs had already done so in 49. So, that's now weaker and I'm downgrading NM to null.

I'm actually interested in your read here. Also it's probably time we talked considering you've been very active and a couple of my assumptions about Kuroi's scum-motivations involve their interactions with you.

I don't know how you get a town-read of any type at all on Not_Mafia from this:

This post is terrible

VOTE: Rob

Can you explain why that's town?

Especially considering Rob did the same thing, albeit with far more follow-up:

Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

VOTE: Persivul

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@Talah trying too hard player is trying too hard.

I also realized I haven't posted that much. I've tried to get something today but for Christmas, access hasn't been reliable enough. I'll get to it tomorrow.

I'll be legitimately satisfied with answers to the questions I've asked.

I'm not worried about Christmas and inactivity.
When you eventually get around to it, what do you mean by "trying too hard player is trying too hard"?

Do you think I'm trying too hard? That's an interesting take on things considering I usually RVS-rush on inconsequential bullshit to force serious discussion.
Haven't done that this game. Yet you're saying I'm scummy for it? Somehow?
Add that to your response please.

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Yo.

Guess who? :D

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Anyway, so I think for this game, I'm gonna try a post-and-go method. By which, I mean, posting reads as I go, but not giving reasoning.

When I'm caught up, I'll give a summary, and from that point on, I'll try to coordinate with talah.

Seems like the best strategy. (May tweak as I go.)

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Welp.

I'm

pathetically

rusty. (This is what I get for not actively playing games for a couple months.)

The first page didn't give me anything absolutely solid except a minor Frozen Angel townread. :?

Page two gives me a Davsto scumread, though.

Am getting townfeels from Mala on page two and Plotinus's posting wasn't bugging me, either, so that's at least a good start.

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and I like to see shiro around so no , I won't change my vote atm

^Really like this, btw. Shiro's content (rather, lack thereof) did minorly ping me, but I'm not familiar enough with Shiro for it to actually be a proper scumread.

We really need to organise some sort of wording to differentiate between referring to The Doctor (character) and a Doctor (protecting role). I know it's not canonically correct, but let's refer to The Doctor (character) as "Doctor Who" all the time, to avoid confusion with the protective role Doctor. Sound good?

talah may prefer to behave in this hydra.

I on the other hand hold little inhibitions. :P

VOTE: Davsto.

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Something tells me that Aristophanes is reading waayyy too much into something which we have already shown to be confusing to refer to, plus Frozen isn't native English speaker so she's obviously going to have trouble communicating.

This is true.

So my townread on Frozen Angel holds. (I also have one on Aristophanes, now.)

Still doesn't lessen my scumread on you, though.

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Reason you should care about: I have a 100% success rate reading Mala, going back to my first game on site. Reason I care about that other people will get: Mala's entrance took definitive stances about how people posted. She's not looking busy - she's providing some degree of insight into what she's seeing
Reason I care about that nobody else will get: Her response to my question didn't talk about Wicked Mafia at all, which I think scum-Mala would have done.

Okay, while far from 100%, this at least gets you on the positive side of null for me.

Something tells me that Aristophanes is reading waayyy too much into something which we have already shown to be confusing to refer to, plus Frozen isn't native English speaker so she's obviously going to have trouble communicating.

VOTE: Davsto

Oi! Stop stealing my vote!

(Did I say positive side of null? I meant solid town, like 80% in-my-top-townreads.)

Arguably my ISO is far worse. Why pick him for it ?

Kinda like this post. It's more what I wanted to see from Shiro.

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These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

You know, I'm not exactly townreading Rob (though I'm not scumreading him, either), but if I were to pick a player between you/Rob13 and be forced to say "One of them is scum trying too hard and the other isn't", then in like a 55/45 split I'd be choosing you as the scum.

But really, the player reeking of scum trying too hard to appear helpful is Davsto.

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Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

Did I say 55/45?

I meant 75/25.

(Thereabouts, anyway. Persivul/Rob respectively.)

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My reads at this point look something like:
Plotkittens
BROseidon
Aristophanes
Frozen Angel

Shiro
Rob13
Soren
Not_Mafia

FAQ2
Kuroi

Persivul

Davsto.

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Davsto's trying to appear helpful? I must have missed the memo on that one. He's just blatantly doing nothing.

Trying to appear helpful is worse than blatantly doing nothing in my book. Davsto's done the former, not the latter.

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Can you explain why that's town?

Because if he were scum just needing someone to push, there were easier targets, particularly when I thought he was the first to say that about Rob.

Well it was a replace-in post which gave no reasoning and ended up in a vote on Rob.
I mean who was the easier target with that reasoning (ie, none)? Kuroi? davsto?
Several folks had already pointed at Rob for one reason or another. Seems pretty easy to me.

-t

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@Rift - can you please delete my previous post as talah - sorry!

(to reiterate:)

Can you explain why that's town?

Because if he were scum just needing someone to push, there were easier targets, particularly when I thought he was the first to say that about Rob.

Well it was a replace-in post which gave no reasoning and ended up in a vote on Rob.
I mean who was the easier target with that reasoning (ie, none)? Kuroi? davsto?

Yes.

Several folks had already pointed at Rob for one reason or another. Seems pretty easy to me.

-t

Yep. On closer examination I've already noted that myself and downgraded my read on NM. So, why do you point it out as well?

I didn't like your initial townread on Not_Mafia and I don't like Not_mafia's content.
At this point it's "REPLACE IN WOOO" (the "WOOO" is an assumption based on the replace) followed by a couple of terse statements.
I think if he was looking for someone, as scum, to vote on - Rob was a good choice. There's been a lot of discussion regarding Rob and it's not so obviously a scummy vote to make and then lurk off on.

I point it out because you said that you thought that the push was town where I don't think it was.
So I'm trying to figure out if your reads are valid or if they lack substance.
I'm finding it strange that you shift back to null on Not_Mafia because Plottin Kittehs had also apparently called out Rob - but fail to recognise your own pushes on Rob as factoring in to a vote that a potential scum-Not_Mafia might make.

I'm leaning town on Rob myself, town on Frozen and I don't have much of an issue with FAQ's play currently but do want to see a bit more.
I'm a maybe-town on you (I don't think mastin agrees with this) but am trying to figure out if I get your own reads. I'd like you to be more open about responding to questions that I ask. I agree with Frozen - you seem pretty cagey at times.

Davsto I was waiting for actual content from, mastin's not so patient and has her own reasons, so happy to stick with the vote there.

Soren / Shiro / Aristo I need to have a bit more of a think about but I think I'm leaning town on Soren and am pretty cautious about Shiro's posting so far. Same with Aristo although he seemed to have some town intent coming in.

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Spoiler:

VOTE: Soren

Must I need a reason?

Their first post is literally asking the thread if he needs a reason, rather than just posting it naked (which would draw some kind of attention) or making up a reason (ie random) or just saying it was random.
Why are they asking if they need a reason?

I'll spell this out since you didn't get it before - you were trying too hard. You took a joke vote the way with such a hard phase. We don't need reasons for joke voting, and I wasn't asking permission. You should know enough to know this and I don't care if you're taking such a hard stance on me making a cute remark and observation that we don't need to explain joke voting. I've joke voted someone because their name was too long for me to pronounce in my mind... Did you want me to delve into that too?

BTW, I forgot to add this before but I've never watched Doctor Who.

Hate me for that if you must but when it comes to interpreting moderator write-ups that involve the show's references, I'm not going to be of much help.

Second post is defensively assuming they'll be attacked at some stage. And saying, hate me for not knowing the theme.
I think the implication is, don't hate me for rolling scum this game.

You know, I'm starting to feel that I've rushed too quickly to respond to this post because I'm finding a lot of mountains out of mole hills. I gave people realistic expectations of me. I know how to play this game. I know a lot of people chose this game specifically because Dr. Who has a large fan base. I'm not in it for that. I signed up, despite of this. I made that post because even though I don't need to know the story in order to catch scum-tells, if there's an aspect in the game that can be clarified by something in the show, I can't help there.

Then there's the "observation" that Persivul might be lurking.
Whether that's incorrect or not, it's unlikely that you say something like that as town unless you're trying to scumhunt, and think you might have picked up on something.

Because lurking and flying under the radar aren't scum tactics?

I stand by what I said and all I noted was an observation. Not a vote, not even a FoS.

And no, I won't get an avatar - not until I feel like getting one.

I feel like the statement about the Avatar may just be the towniest thing they've said so far.

This is useless to me.

The most recent three posts are Kuroi:
Making a buddy or familiarity post about Not_Mafia (I still don't know what's going on there since they didn't address it where I commented in 167)
Unvoting from RVS and not committing to another vote
Making a comment about Persivul which now says they *do* in fact have a slight scumread there.

While I do have a slight scumread off Persivul, I don't think he's stretching himself thin, especially not by pointing logical fallacies.

@Kuroi

1) Can you please explain just what your read is on Persivul and what it's based on.
2) Can you tell me what history you have with Not_Mafia and why he's someone you "can trust"?

1) I was incorrect with that. I thought that was Persivul's first post for some reason. I was wrong.
2) I'm not answering this question because you clearly lack the irony from his username.

Egh, kinda fixed the above a bit, hopefully.

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Not_Mafia replaces MormonCoffee. Please welcome him!

I like the cut of his jib. Plus, his name must be indicative of his alignment in this game.

He seems like someone I can trust.

Alright, Champ. Here's your homework assignment. Spend two hours (or however long it takes) reading this until you realize why I might joke about taking a character and believing they're innocent based on their username. You don't have to laugh. You don't have to agree that it's funny. You just have to understand it.

Why did you make the comment?
It doesn't help you read anyone.

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My read on NM was "initial" as you say. I called it "early." IIRC it was based on 3 posts. So...of course it lacked substance. You have to start somewhere.

Mokay. I just read it as skating by and dropping a vote. With zero reasoning. That's scummy to me.

I'm finding it strange that you shift back to null on Not_Mafia because Plottin Kittehs had also apparently called out Rob - but fail to recognise your own pushes on Rob as factoring in to a vote that a potential scum-Not_Mafia might make.

I'm finding it concerning that you're not reading the thread closely. At the time that NM voted Rob, I hadn't pushed Rob at all. I had made one null comment on Rob when NM voted.

I stand corrected.

I'm leaning town on Rob myself, town on Frozen and I don't have much of an issue with FAQ's play currently but do want to see a bit more.

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on. FAQ2 as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen. As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

The other game I have with FAQ was this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=63370
Funnily, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

I'm a maybe-town on you (I don't think mastin agrees with this) but am trying to figure out if I get your own reads. I'd like you to be more open about responding to questions that I ask. I agree with Frozen - you seem pretty cagey at times.

Maybe you should ask better questions. I get tired of questions which I've already answered (Frozen's specialty) or which are loaded with factually false premises (as above where you missed the timing of the pushes on Rob).

Me missing timing isn't something you want to get exasperated about. You're not the only person in the game and we're in this together regardless of alignment.

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I was asking why you made the comment about Not_Mafia's username in the first place.

Also please don't patronise me. I don't find it funny or clever.

-t

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And again, I'm not sure how it helps you determine anyone's alignment.

Were you hoping for a pingback from Not_Mafia? You got one. How did you read it?

-t

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When I say that I'm going to do something, I fucking do it. Leave me alone until I can do so.

This game is going to become a repeat of Prozac's BT4 at this rate and that was awful for me.

Are you ever going to do anything? Aside from bitch and gripe and ask for more time?
What's your actual read on Persivul, for example?

Funnily

, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

Why is it funny that we would both come up with similar meta reads on another player?

I'm not just being picky with that question, I have a point. I think I got an early scum rep with some people and my abrasive style keeps them from getting past that. But, if you objectively consider my entire contribution (such as the above on FAQ2) and my motivations you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

Raised eyebrow-type funny.
You've been laying down a lot of opinions I don't agree with and reading back over FAQ's posts in the game you mentioned made me rethink him.

Also I so want to be a nice and professional little puppy in this thread but you/Kuroi/Not_Mafia being general assholes is making me not want to post and/or tilt.
So if you could refrain from acting like cunts that would be really helpful to me.

-t

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I dropped in to prod-dodge but considering Persivul's at L-1 I should probably make a decision on the slot.

Bit of background - mastin had actually an associative tell of some kind on Davsto / Persivul which wasn't explained in our QT (and she's only been involved in the game the one time she posted - and left half a dozen posts for me privately). But it's kind of an opposite tell from what you're saying you have from meta, Rob. She said that she didn't find Persivul scummy off his play, but that based on his relationship with Davsto she had him as very VERY likely scum in that case. I don't actually know what the associative tell is about - but she was scumreading Davsto pretty heavily (obviously because of the vote, and I'm completely happy with that read, if not so sure about the associative).

Something that triggered me in relation to that was Persivul's quick townread on Davsto the moment Davsto posted - well anything resembling content really. Post 471 is very thematically straightforward - Persivul's town, and Rob is possibly scum for pushing him. He's already voting Rob for a different reason which he stated in Post 122, so adding another couple of reasons allows him to stick with that vote and not really need to branch out risking questioning on other actual opinions.

Davsto's done pretty much nothing today aside from that one post. I'd prefer to lynch Davsto over Persivul myself but won't oppose a Persivul lynch if the choice is between Rob and him.

Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Couple of other thoughts:
I need much much more from FAQ. I think Persivul's observation on FAQ's play is actually good. He seems to always be a sparse poster but in this game he reads as extremely timid compared to the game I played with him. With FAQ's current posts in-thread, I'd lynch here.
I dislike Soren's Post 535. Something about the phrasing feels off to me, like forced natural if that makes sense, but I will certainly be taking them up on their offer to interact when I have time after new year's stuff. Their other posting has seemed bitey enough. Back to null from a townish lean for me pending further info.

Anyway, prod-dodge and I have to work Saturday/Sunday and next week so will be somewhat around but hopefully mastin's around at some stage soon to give some thoughts.
Happy New Year by the way!

-t

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Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Again, it would be much easier for him to take Rob's side or to take no side in me v. Rob. Further, he gave good reasoning, quoting posts and showing Rob lying, then moving the goalposts. Third, town is usually lynched D1, so people don't get much credit for opposing a D1 town lynch - there's not much to be gained from WKing D1.

See I don't get this argument that things are "much easier" for scum and therefore they do them. I didn't think his reasoning was good, in much the same wasy that I didn't think that Not_Mafia's reasoning was good.

Davsto is re-hashing reasons that you've already given yourself and presenting them as his own.

Sure. Here's one example. When clearly

caught in a lie

, instead of admitting it and retracting the charge, you

move the goalposts

.

Frozen Angel

moving the goalposts

too, going from "you're not asking me questions" to "you're not asking me questions

I like

, when any town player would just answer those questions when they're presented to them on a silver platter.

Moving the goalposts

. He started off saying "moved off me" and talking about votes, and then once Persivul points out

he was lying about the votes

, he backpedals and says "nonono I meant pressure and people off the wagon saying I'm town".

Ultimately I question the actual content which he brought in his catch-up post and wonder if you're just blind to it because he said what you wanted to hear.
I don't think any sane scum-player would actually lie about vote-counts so that's not a compelling argument and "moving goalposts" is pretty buzzword-y unless the scum advantage is clearly explained by the accuser.
I think Rob's been scumhunting and trying to figure things out and it was pretty "easy" for Davsto to scan through Rob's ISO and find a couple of things that he could present as scummy, then posted them.

My WK comment also related to that fact that you two have been the main two players arguing with each other today.

Are you concerned that Rob is still full steam ahead, requesting intent despite my claim? Further, consider the claim. It doesn't prove that there's an SK per the wiki, but it strongly suggests it. Since Rob knew the claim, he could have shifted focus today and waited to see if there are two kills, which would support my claim. If only one kill, he could have revealed the crumb and pushed me tomorrow. You could argue that FBI agent is a safe fakeclaim for the SK himself, but my play in no way indicates me as SK. I've never played SK but I imagine you have to remain pretty well under the radar to be successful.

Well ignoring your intent question - my experience of an SK was entirely the opposite (Saki in FE:A completely spamming the thread and being one of the reasons we ended up getting the largest day in a Large game - which still actually stands O_o
I had a townread on Saki there as well and my thoughts on good SK-play since, have been that you scumhunt. A lot. Your main advantage is that you can be seen as pro-town because

you don't know the scumteam

.

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Is there any reason you're not voting Davsto right now Rob?

I don't quite get your mental reset mechanics considering you have a meta tell saying one is not scum if the other is, and asked which was the more likely.

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He was already voting you... If you're both town then he just sits on his current vote.
And you talk about asking obvious quesitons.

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Yeah sorry I meant already voting Rob.

New Year's and such. Point stands.

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Why is Davsto your top townread after one post?
Where's the culmination of all your scumhinting?

Do you townhunt?

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*scumhUnting

Seriously I should not be posting in this hydra right now.
MY STANDARDS :'(

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Seriously I should not be posting in this hydra right now.

Yep.

Thanks for that. Is your purpose in mafia as town to be generally abrasive? Has that worked for you in the past?
You could go ahead and address the point I made then substituting Rob for 'You'
Which I just clarified.

He was already voting

you

Rob

... If you're both town then he just sits on his current vote.
And you talk about asking obvious quesitons.

Davsto is town why?

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Since family night isn't happening tonight, thought I'd pop in quickly to say: not site flaking.
Just...very, very preoccupied with something that to you would be something you'd prioritize as being below mafia but which to me is really, really, REALLY important. (Read my blog for the details.)
Regardless of whether I succeed or fail, I'm going to be back Monday, but that's time I won't be here, because...well, yeah. I REALLY want to get this project done. It holds significant personal meaning to me and is a MAJOR milestone in my life if I can get it done. So I'm going to ask my hydra partner to hold the fort until Monday. I'll overcome inertia and contribute then. Somehow. Because yeah, need to rebalance my mafia life. Just...now now. Three days from now. Consider it V/LA.

If my mental calculation is correct, that's a full day before the deadline, meaning plenty of time for me to catch up.

^Us obviously.

No worries mastin - thanks for letting us know what's going on <3

Catching up now. Welcome, RC.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Why is Davsto your top townread after one post?
Where's the culmination of all your scumhunting?

Do you townhunt?

Just a quick follow-up on this from Persivul. Even though he's replaced now, so this will be brief. Also edited my typo above.

Davsto is town why?

For reasons already given. Making a lengthy incriminating post with post references is not "just sitting" on one's vote. And you still haven't answered my question - what's in it for davsto to side with me and antagonize Rob?

Typically when I'm supporting the person under heaviest fire on D1, I'm town. And typically, someone accuses me of WKing. That's a charge that IMO gets thrown around too much lately, and shouldn't be made until there's a flip.

These are the reasons already given, after Persivul changed his vote from Davsto.

Good post by davsto. Whether Rob's scum or town, it would be easier for scum to side with him rather than me as Rob has greater site cred and popularity.

Problem here is, the above is the complete set of "reasons given" up until this point. I think what happened here was this as I mentioned earlier:

Ultimately I question the actual content which he brought in his catch-up post and wonder if you're just blind to it because he said what you wanted to hear.

This also goes to the implicit towning of Persivul which Davsto undertook. Effectively creating an "us or them" scenario where Persivul's town because Rob's scum - and vice-versa (Rob's scum because Persivul's town).
Fairly simple scum-move to make. Back the wrong, agressive town. As long as both are the top two wagons, you can't really lose as scum.
Either wrong agressive town, lives on for another day and since you've both backed the same town-lynch you're semi immune to agressive-town's pushes on yourself
OR wrong agressive town gets lynched and you can say "well I was right, so let's lynch Persivul's scumread who I was also scumreading".

Which he appears to have also capitalised on by way of RC's replace-in.

Oh looks like I was right about Persivul slot, how strange.

Welcome to RCMafia.

Where the reads are made up and the votes don't matter.

Completely and absolutely happy with our vote on Davsto. I'm almost 100% certain that this play wouldn't come from town.

[Adaptive Heap]

Pers, the reason I don't consider two kills to confirm is that FBI Agent is a great fake claim for an SK.

Think about it. You get the two kills to "confirm". Scum don't kill you because you can't investigate on them. It's pretty airtight.

I thought about your claim and how it could/couldn't be confirmed, and I concluded that there was no feasible way to confirm it without assuming that an SK wouldn't lie. And that's obviously not a good assumption to make.

This reasoning is flawed. Why would an SK fakeclaim FBI Agent? Through being an SK, he'd know there's quite a risk of there being an FBI Agent in the game, and as such fakeclaiming FBI brings with it quite a decent chance of being counter-claimed.

It would more likely be a mafia fake-claim. Given that ffery has provided explicit safe fake-claims in the past (and I would think ffery + Syr almost certainly do). Also given that the game is role madness (which I presume means practically everyone has some non-vanilla role).
So it's either a true claim which could indicate the presence of an SK, or it's a mod-provided fakeclaim for mafia.

I really doubt it's a mod-provided fakeclaim *for* the SK if one exists. This reasoning is flawed.

Question is, would mafia!Persi claim FBI?

He wouldn't, because if he guesses from setup spec that:
there isn't an SK, it would soon become apparent and he'd get fucked over.
there is an SK, he is painting a big target on his arse for a crosskill (as well as a risk of being counterclaimed).

This claim reinforces my townread on him.

This reasoning is also flawed. If Persivul finds himself under pressure of lynch of course he uses a mod-provided fakeclaim.
For all I know he could be x-shot BP killless scum rolecop.

I honestly don't know how you arrived at your Persivul townread Davsto.
I think I'll get a better read on the slot from RC frankly.

[Adaptive Heap]

Just realised Adaptive Heap is talah and mastin neither of these should be making such poor arguments

Hi. You ready to actually interact with the game yet?
Also - we've never played a game together before, have we?
You may know mastin but you don't know me, so how do you assume anything about my arguments in order to say they "shouldn't be poor" (which they're not by the way, no matter how you frame them).
Just wondering how you arrive at that conclusion with no previous experience of me though.
Seems like more shitslinging in addition to Post 379.

I was asking why you made the comment about Not_Mafia's username in the first place.

Also please don't patronise me. I don't find it funny or clever.

-t

And again, I'm not sure how it helps you determine anyone's alignment.

Were you hoping for a pingback from Not_Mafia? You got one. How did you read it?

-t

Mmmnnnyeees?
Kuroi had posted a shitty accusation at Persivul in RVS, lurked and not provided anything afterward, and then when you replaced in decided another RVS post was in order - making a "joke" about your username.
So I pressured him for it because he wasn't providing anything up to that point.

He's starting to seem townish to me now, but he's still on my radar.

You however are making terrible arguments (and one of the posts mastin provided me with in our QT in the initial burst she had, was that she had burden of proficiency on you).
Considering you're scumreading our slot and you're saying *I* should be posting better (while failing to see why I'm doing things), I'm giving you the second-most-likely scum in this game mantle.
Happy with that? Wanna chat?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I think I'll get a better read on the slot from RC frankly.

Yeah, I heard RC is so easy to read.

Yeah I saw the Frozen-scum rigmarole and still don't know why you did it.

I ended up tending town on Persivul anyway but if you're town and want to help with some actual scumhunting then I'm down.
Well to clarify, scumhunting that I can understand.

[Adaptive Heap]

I don't think I'm lynching persi today.
VOTE: Davsto

Hi!

Can you please summarise how you moved from wanting to lynch Persivul in the big post you made (the relevant part of it is here):

To comment on Persivul vs Rob. Rob is winning for me and honestly I feel like sheeping the vote. I have to say that Rob is like Sherlock Holmes, he'll notice the minute details and whether that tells him that someone is scum or town. I particularly find Persivul's bout with Rob to be like flinging dirt at Rob. Persi's argument is convoluted, I don't even know why he's scum reading Rob. Whereas Rob has enumerated and laid out many times as to why Persi is scum. I do not like Persi vote hopping so much. After he unvoted Rob he went from Ari, to FA to Dav to shiro and now to Rob again. What is he actually trying to accomplish with that. For me, it appears as thought Persi is scum trying to fake "proactive towness" and make it look like he is actually doing something in the game when he is not.

I particularly liked Shiro's criticism of Persi's play, in his 447 and 449. He raises an important point that Persi is faking an attempt to pressure players. With the mention of Shiro, I have to say that he is ringing town to me. He may not have posted much, but what he has posted is informing me that he has a town mindset coming into the game, while he is not actively pushing people, he is noticing the little holes that scum were unable to cover up in their plays.

...to not wanting to lynch him here:

I don't think I'm lynching persi today.
VOTE: Davsto

You seemed pretty invested in "one of Rob or Persivul is scum".
You mentioned the FBI agent role a couple of times in your sentence-long posts in between...
But I wonder why the claim changes your aspect on lynching if you think the slot's still scummy.

Did you decide not to lynch Persivul because you thought he was town, or because you wanted to preserve the claim?
The shift isn't making much sense from my perspective.

[Adaptive Heap]

Yeah I saw the Frozen-scum rigmarole and still don't know why you did it.

to see how Frozen would react.

I'm strongly leaning town on her reactions - BUT - she hard to read so.

I'm gut-towning her. I don't know what I'd be looking for in scum-her though.

-t

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Um, so can you give me some vague indication into the specifics of any Frozen-scum read you have RC?

Cuz you just finished up saying you were tending town on her.
Like - is Frozen likely to just say "I'm town sis" to you repeatedly as scum?

Also she's actually being hilarious. Is she that cheeky as scum?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Yes, but usually she throws in more WTF IM TOWN HOW ARE YOU MISREADING ME!!!!!!! and I WILL HANG MYSELF IF YOU LYNCH ME!!!!!! as scum.

This reaction seems pretty tame.

Ermmm, do you just mean she'd say this *more* as town?

Or are you just putting something up as a strawman?

he came in made empty accusations on me, made some clear misrepresentation , advertised I'm buddying someone else , tried to dishoner all my points against him , said I'm acting "dumb" on purpose(which he is lucky I'm not taking it personal because I'm so sensitive about such insults) then he say he is VLA and ask town to make the RIGHT decision...


I really want to hang myself right now ...

^town in this game. Obviously as you were in it.
Same as your entrance, which is tunneling Frozen the same as you tunneled Titus in that game (as town).

I'm starting to get a bad feeling on you RC sir.
Are you giving me a personal experience of your reverse-meta here?
Thanks for the intent but I'll be reading you based on logic and Frozen based on pushes.

Fuck me you're both hard to read.
Back later.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I'll be back after work (12-ish hours or less). Welcome, cheetory!

Soren I saw your response/questions there and will address them tonight.
FYI mastin's posted on precisely *one* occasion in our hydra PT, about half a dozen posts summarising her thoughts on various players, which I did mention (this was at the same time she moved our vote to Davsto).

Also Davsto's still the best lynch for today.
And he's still clinging to the whole "why would I townread Persivul instead of Rob if I was scum?" line.

Anyway back later.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Rob13

(5): Davsto, Soren, RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel, Shiro

Pretty comfortable calling first 4 town.

Shiro probs town but not quite as sure.

I'd be very wary of Kuroi, Heap, Kittehs.

Luv chu all


lol ok Aristo

Obviously you mean the first 3 considering you're town or have to pretend you are.
You were also prepared to consider Rob town if he voted Kuroi.
And you also placed votes on Soren and Frozen at the very least iirc.

I don't like any of your trajectory. You've replaced in and spewed shitvotes over the thread and have now settled on a position you feel comfortable with.
That doesn't feel like the town-you I've encountered.

---

@Rob

- I need to know what this "can't be scum together" meta tell between Persivul and Davsto is. Considering you've all but blacklisted Persivul it shouldn't be a problem, otherwise please explain why it is.

---

I'm the Third Doctor and my role is equivalent to that of a Jailkeeper (it has a fancy name, though).

Counter claiming - I'm the fifth doctor and my role is like jailkeeper (we can't all be similar can we?)

LYNCH THE SCUM

VOTE: Rob

Rob said his role is *equivalent* to Jailkeeper. I take that to mean his role is Jailkeeper, just couched in different terms.
You said yours is *like* Jailkeeper. I take that to mean it performs a different function.

I'm about 90% confident that safe fakeclaims will be provided to scum in this game. ffery provided them in the *blitz* game I played with her modding most recently. There's no reason they aren't provided here in a role madness game with lots of flavour with both ffery AND Syr modding.

So if you're counterclaiming I want to know what the role is. "Like Jailkeeper" is not enough for me to buy it at all. Especially when a Jailkeeper lynch would obviously be most advantageous for scum.
Are you counterclaiming a role which is

the same

as Jailkeeper?

---
Anyway, going to review stuff and catch up a bit better.

[Adaptive Heap]

^egh btw this is obviously me.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Why does he have Burden-Of-Explaining-A-Read-On-Another-Player-You'd-Lynch

to prove he's town.

Maybe you should read the thread instead of pretending you have and drumming a frenzy of lynch-anyone.

I have certain reservations about Rob but overall think he's town. You on the other hand just want to derail the Davsto wagon and push any other lynch and suspicion that you can.

[Adaptive Heap]

I'm definitely the jailkeeper. don't play with words please.

Right so you're counterclaiming Jailkeeper. Okay now I understand what "like" Jailkeeper means.

[Adaptive Heap]

HE CLAIMED CHE IS JAILKEEPER

HE CAN'T BE

END OF STORY

Don't shout at me, thanks.

[Adaptive Heap]

I am.

[Adaptive Heap]

He claimed prior to L-1 obviously thinking that the claim would do something to shift his wagon.

You counterclaimed, firstly a role which was "Like" Jailkeeper with a question about similar roles.

I'm the Third Doctor and my role is equivalent to that of a Jailkeeper (it has a fancy name, though).

Counter claiming - I'm the fifth doctor and my role is like jailkeeper (we can't all be similar can we?)

So to start with, you now saying your role is unequivocally Jailkeeper is new information.

Secondly I don't consider that there would be conflicting claims in this game unless they both came from town (for example two town Jailkeepers might be a possibility but an actual Jailkeeper and a fakeclaim-Jailkeeper is not entering my realm of credibility).

So what I'm left with is Rob-scum made an ad-hoc fakeclaim of Jailkeeper hoping to out a town Jailkeeper, or you are both town Jailkeepers, or you-scum decided to force a mislynch by counterclaiming Jailkeeper.

I don't like or know what to think about any of those options.

[Adaptive Heap]

Another option is you're both scum with daytalk and settled on the same fake-claim to bus for cred, but I'm not sure I like that either.

[Adaptive Heap]

If you're Town Insane Jailkeeper why wouldn't you consider the possibility of two? Or a Sane Town version?

And how does an "Insane" modifier work with Jailkeeper anyway?

[Adaptive Heap]

It can be balanced if both roles are basically innefectual and cause a town-v-town counterclaim to occur.

Anyway this is getting too complicated so I'm going back to answer Soren and poke Not_Mafia in the eyeball etc.

[Adaptive Heap]

If you're Town Insane Jailkeeper why wouldn't you consider the possibility of two? Or a Sane Town version?

And how does an "Insane" modifier work with Jailkeeper anyway?

2 town Jailkeeper?!!!! oO You really can't consider this a possibility can U?! that means 2 slots mafia can't KILL at night.

Insane means I can't choose who I'm targeting at night.

Oh you're fucking kidding me.
How is that even a pro-town role. It's just as likely to protect scum or interfere with other Town roles.

Step back and think about it Frozen. I'm not scum this game and I'm attempting to reason with you. I believe you're town now.
And I already had a townread on you before this shitstorm, please remember that.
But in you vs Rob, sorry I don't believe you.

[Adaptive Heap]

Funny, I was going to bring up the ABR thing in relation to you voting whoever he wanted with zero reasoning and settling wholeheartedly and stubbornly on a town lynch (me in ABR's case, on Rob in this case in this game with you) also with no reasoning.

I'd want to think that your reasoning actually exists in-thread as I mentioned postgame. But it really really doesn't this game. There's no reasoning. Just a semblance of reaction-testing followed by vote-hopping, followed by settling on a townlynch.

[Adaptive Heap]

Hell, I'd flashwagon AH at this point because his certainty in Rob town is factually not coming from town.

It's not a remote, imaginable possibility.

Quote my "certainty" in Rob-town.

The only thing I'm certain about today is that Davsto is scum.
Your shitposting comes a close second.

[Adaptive Heap]

followed by settling on a townlynch.

ROB LIED

why should he fake claim?!

Are you reading what I'm posting? Why is it definitely a lie?
Does your role PM say that you know there isn't another insane town Jailkeeper?

[Adaptive Heap]

Like, this was literally scum convo in pregame

rob: OMG WE'RE SO GOOD IN THE GAME IN SCUM CHAT PRO PLAYERS ALL AROUND
ah: YEA WE GONNA ROLL THIS SCRUB TOWN HARD DEFEND EACH OTHER CHAINSAW ALL GAME EZ WIN TOWN REAL DUMB WALK ALL OVER THEM

That's really funny and also seems to be Not_Mafia's line even though we haven't played a game together before.

I've completed precisely one scum game that I replaced into. One. I wouldn't know how to deal with scum if a dumptruck of bullshit parked itself on my front lawn.

Anyway fuck this noise. Catching up is going to be basically impossible if I continue to assume what you're saying has a percentage chance of being relevant.

[Adaptive Heap]

I'm assuming you mean this post:

Neither of you seem interested in bussing, but I still want to say: DON'T BUS! People think it's clever but in most cases it's stupid. Now, I don't mean we have to town read each other. I mean no votes, or at least no votes that you can't reasonably take back if a wagon builds.

I don't know why that's a strong meta-tell honestly. I get why you would want to preserve it if you're telling the truth.
Persivul pinged Davsto with a vote for inactivity and then unvoted immediately Davsto posted. Then promoted him into his top-town spot and provided no reasoning for that. At least no credible reasoning and I pointed that out in my response to him just before he replaced.

[Adaptive Heap]

Also Taly pulled the same shit on me in a TvT last game I played with him on a "No Self Voting!!!?!!!11LOL" meta tell.

[Adaptive Heap]

The way both Rob and Adaptive are acting as if it's not a counterclaim and really, really trying hard to avoid a confrontation from this by picking at what Frozen said rather than what we all know Frozen means is highly suspect.

I'm here to confront you right now Davsto. Welcome back to the actual game.
We also have your favourite people in-thread, in RC and Frozen.

Catch-up abandoned. Matters to be discussed.

[Adaptive Heap]

picking at what Frozen said rather than what we all know Frozen means is highly suspect.

Rephrase this please. Or flesh it out. I don't grok the meaning.

[Adaptive Heap]

Well don't get all coy on me now Davsto :angelface:

[Adaptive Heap]

YOU ARE HARD DEFENDING THE FUCK OUT OF ROB WHILE NOT CLAIMING A TOWNREAD ON HIM.

NO SHIT YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY SCUM.

Pardon me?

A townread which I'd consider "strong" is not the same as "certainty" which is what you previously presented as your argument for me-scum.

So what is it? Am I scum for being pro-scum with a strategy of hard-buddying my buddies and having "certainty" that Rob's town?

Or am I scum for being shit as scum by hard-defending him and not claiming a "certain" townread on him?

Because with that reasoning, you get to push both sides.

[Adaptive Heap]

I'm the Third Doctor and my role is equivalent to that of a Jailkeeper (it has a fancy name, though).

Counter claiming - I'm the fifth doctor and my role is like jailkeeper (we can't all be similar can we?)

LYNCH THE SCUM

VOTE: Rob

Here's Frozen's (counter)claim. However, rather than assuming that since she has the role she knows it better than you do, you pick at her use of the word "like" to avoid having to pick a side.

The counter-claim was decidedly wishy-washy in its use of "like" and "similar".
I certainly didn't know what to think (and in fact still don't).

You, however appear to know exactly what's happening. You don't even have to consider anything.
Confbias from town-Davsto? I don't think so. I think you're happy with your position scumreading Rob.

Did you ever townread Frozen or is that a recent occurrence based on the claim?

[Adaptive Heap]

you're trying to avoid picking a side between Frozen Angel and Rob, and trying to move the focus.

I don't need to pick a side. I have one as prob-town and the other as likely-town.

I'm voting you. I believe I've caused the claims to be elaborated on - both Rob and Frozen have done so.

[Adaptive Heap]

VOTE: AH

his way of defending rob makes me think he knew both of us are town

lets lynch scum

Uh okay.

I've been defending Rob or at least townreading him and challenging scumreads on him due to the read for quite a while.
For example while Persivul was pushing him.

When did you end up with a townread on Rob? Can you explain that please?

[Adaptive Heap]

VOTE: Aeronaut for the actions of his two predecessors.

I need to look at Shiro more closely, though. That's a weird kill unless they did something that resembled a fake crumb. Possibly chosen just as a "won't blow back on anyone" kill? I really don't know without looking.

He had
Davsto as town
Soren as scum
Persivul(RC/Aeronaut) as scum with an interdependency on Frozen/you both not being scum

This:

@Per

It tends to be bleh day 1 for anything other than towreads

You do manage to get a few assiciations down though like

Rob and Dav cant be scum together , You can't be scum with either Rob or Frozen , Frozen is unlikely to be scum with Ari etc etc.

And to me the more of unlikely connection you create the more likely someone is to be town.

Not_mafia as cautious town

Ended up voting you after the Frozen claim (which incidentally Frozen lied about to get you lynched, which is not fantastic play on her part)

I'm The Fifth Doctor, Incorrigible Dapper Abductor

I love the people of Earth perhaps a little too much. I steal 1 person from earth each night and make him/her immune to all roles that target a player, including kills. the point is I have no control over when this ability activates nor whom it targets.

plus another thing ....

(which I won't claim yet)

the second role is sane btw.

And then his last post is expressing suspicion of our slot.

So yeah I can see how it's a convenient kill for scum considering I disagree with most of it. The Soren read is the only real crossover. I still need to get my head around the Persivul/RC/Aero slot - RC's play was his cookie-cutter town from the previous game we'd played and that bothered me a lot. The interdependency stuff he points out might be valid.

[Adaptive Heap]

Okay so I forgot to re-post this. Nothing in the two flips makes me reconsider Davsto.

VOTE: Davsto

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Heap. What's your read on Rob.

Town.

[Adaptive Heap]

The Taly/Mastin Hydra

Ahem.

It's

talah

, not Taly. Different players. I played with you in a game a while ago.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Town.

More words required.

I'm trying to quickly catch up on daystart in this game so I can get some sleep.
Sorry, but I've been onsite for maybe 4 or 5 hours catching up with other stuff.

I've expressed my read on Rob previously. In fact on a blanket level I don't think either flip changed much of what I think although that's something that I'm going to have to look back at when I get time. Frozen was a decently polar and prolific player in the game.
For now... hit the ISO button. Ctrl-F "Rob".

:)

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

VOTE: Adaptive Heap

I want to lynch either adpative heap or kuroi today.

VOTE: Adaptive Heap

Best two reasons given for voting town, ever.

@Not_Mafia

, I stumbled across a game (Open 557: Deck of Stacks) where you replaced me as town a while back when I was looking for something else.

I can't figure out how to link an ISO without breaking the URL, and since there are only a dozen or so posts, here they are.
Your posting there was sparse, but it was helpful. Why aren't you scumhunting or reading this game?

Spoiler:

Egopost. Will start reading in an hour or so. According to #858 beast has a guilty on me, looking at the set up this is not possible.

Probably already been addressed but by not possible I mean it isn't even possible for him to have a pseudo guilty on me where we could both be town

Read up to page 6, Seeing Beast/Saki hydra/? currently. tn would be occupying the ? slot if I hadn't seen the flips in the OP

@Crash Text Dummie

TN has been town reading Katen all day long. He tried to hammer without a claim. If that's not a scum claim, I don't know what is. It's survivalistic to the max.

I've seen this weird bit of hammer etiquette come up with increasing frequency lately, from players both old and new, and I have a couple of questions about it, namely:

1. Who came up with it?
2. What's the purpose of it?
3. Can we please stop doing it?

The rules of conduct when it came to claiming under duress used to be very straight forward: If you were put at L-1, you were expected to claim. If your very next post didn't contain a full claim, you were lynched. Simple, effective. Things got only slightly more complicated when people decided that refusing to claim certain roles (VT, doc) is strategically viable. Most of the time, you were hammered anyway.

This "intent to hammer" business adds an additional step to the proceedings that, as far as I can tell, serves no other purpose than to give scum more time to come up with a fake claim. As much as we all hate to do it, claiming truthfully as town is one of the simplest things to do in a game of mafia and takes no time at all. On the other hand, coming up with a compelling fake claim is one of the hardest and nerve-wracking exercises for scum. Giving them a grace period between L-1 and someone claiming intent to hammer affords them the time to put more thought into it, discuss it in the scum QT, etc: L-1 -> start thinking about fake claim, "intent to hammer" -> place fake claim.

Refusal to claim used to be a decent scum tell. It's strictly more beneficial for scum not to claim than it is for town because it eliminates the risk of being contradicted. Failure to acknowledge that you are at L-1 used to be a

very

strong scum tell. The current situation is confusing and a hindrance to scumhunting. People who believe in announcing intent accuse those who don't of premature hammers and claims. Those who don't believe in announcing intent accuse those who do of refusing to claim and failing to acknowledge that they're at L-1. Since this is apparently a matter of two different believe systems, neither camp is wrong and neither camp is correct and actual scum manages to fall through the cracks.

Could someone please give me a compelling reason why announcing intent to hammer instead of just hammering when someone fails to claim is beneficial for town? Or better yet, could we just stop doing it?

Reconcile these please

Yeah, you're right, never mind CTD

I'm caught up (I skimmed a lot of the walls admittedly).

Still thinking Beast/Katengecchi/?

I'll look at Beast in isolation for the last person but I don't think it's SeeEmpty as I don't think they've been cross bussing all game.

Thinking katengecchi for generic scumminess day 1 and lurking and being WIFOM'd out of suspicion day 2. Plus how Beast has continually pushed the counter wagons to Kat. And Kat's flip flop on my slot despite believing my predecessor townslipped and with beast being the optimal lynch set up wise.

I can go through and flesh out a case on beast if people need me to but it looks like he's the lynch anyway and I'd rather focus on looking at associative stuff

And Kat's flip flop on my slot despite believing my predecessor townslipped and with beast being the optimal lynch set up wise.

You seem to have missed the part where I was townreading both your slot AND beast - naturally, when the 1v1 happened one of my reads had to be wrong, and, in the end, my townread on beast was greater than yours

-Koromo

There's a difference between townreading someone and believing they townslipped. And if if you were townreading us both, why are you advocating the lynch that can lose us the game in the night?

Justin explained the situation in post #819. For outcome:

1. Lynch scum Talah - best: 4T:1S, worst 3T:2S.
2. Mislynch Talah - best: 3T:2S, worst 3T:3S.
3. Mislynch Beast - 3T:2S.
4. Lynch scum Beast - best: 4T:1S, worst 3T:2S.

So, a mislynch Talah will most probably lose the game for us, while a mislynch Beast is at worst a MYLO.

Not_Mafia's catchup is a scum catchup. I don't get the impression he was actually thinking critically about anything and the way he's

conveniently scumreading the leading wagon,

and not making a case in favor of "it looks like he'll be lynched anyway" as opposed to explaining his read, is very scum motivated.

The leading wagon is faking a guilty on me, so how could he be anything but conf. scum in my eyes?

Vig Katen

VOTE: Seeempty

Beast flipping Traitor makes think him over the Katen slot. Still wary of it though, will ISO JP later

Yeah I've been scum with Justin and I see the same kind of distancing early on in his ISO he did with me

Prodded. I'll answer all this later when I'm not half asleep

VOTE: Muffin

Okay, I do think scum is within Seeempty/muffin with the way Justin tried to push through the Katen lynch.

BE's iso is terrible and this whole "Why won't you self vote" when Seeempty doesn't have confirmation that Muffin is people's 2nd choice just feels like theatre

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Prod-dodge-ish.

Short non-game-related note on my activity in this game - I have 4 days left to work before I have 4 weeks of long service leave ( :D ) so you can expect me to actually re-read the last 50 pages within about a week. Tempted to call a short V/LA for our hydra but I may instead skim up later this week and call one over the weekend (when I expect to be quite drunk for several days).

What I'm actually waiting for is Not_Mafia to explain his naked vote and respond to my last post.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

War Doctor

Crumb in my RVS post (no more!)

I'm an Enabler, so some (I don't know which) abilities of others will be lost when I die.

What's your read of Rob overall throughout the game please?

I ask because your pushes on him have been isolated to the content of specific posts and making commentary on the scum motivation of each.
It reads as the kind of confbias you'd have when you know another player is scum (like in 3p lylo or after a claim which you know is false).

For example:

This is kinda avoiding the question; he asks "why Cheetory" as if it's suspicious that he chose him as it's an odd choice, and then when asked he gives a sort of non-answer.

Him passing off the kill as a "oh it's a kill that won't blow back on scum" seems to be prepared to deflect people who read into the kill from scumreading him, as well as a "well i'm not scum because idk why shiro was killed right haha"

Even now, when Frozen Angel has clarified what she has said, you're trying to avoid picking a side between Frozen Angel and Rob, and trying to move the focus.

(^This one is directed at me actually, but it's the same kind of thing)

Here's Frozen's (counter)claim. However, rather than assuming that since she has the role she knows it better than you do, you pick at her use of the word "like" to avoid having to pick a side.

Convenient unvote just after Persivul unvoted Rob. I think Rob was looking for an excuse to vote Persivul but didn't want it to be seen as OMGUS.

...and so on.

Also I just spotted this:

Frozen Angel moving the goalposts too, going from "you're not asking me questions" to "you're not asking me questions

I like

, when any town player would just answer those questions when they're presented to them on a silver platter.

So I guess you were scumreading Frozen right up until she claimed against Rob and then immediately decided her counterclaim was legit?
Why jump to that conclusion without any consideration if you were reading both as scum?

The way both Rob and Adaptive are acting as if it's not a counterclaim and really, really trying hard to avoid a confrontation from this by picking at what Frozen said rather than what we all know Frozen means is highly suspect.

Given it wasn't actually a counterclaim but Frozen did indeed flip town, what are your thoughts on Rob's claimed role now?

---
(Also I'll give a summary of my current townread on Rob in case Cheetory hasn't looked back yet, but am going to wait until after you answer this.)

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I'm fine with either of these two options for lynch.

Actually vla for a couple of days here though.

I believe Soren is at

L-1

.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Double jinx :P

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Howdys,

We'll be outing our full role and results today prior to a lynch.
I'd like the day to last for the full day today, as opposed to yesterday.

I'm not all that sure what to think about our reveal/results and did ask mastin; she said that today is the best day to throw it out.

For any other town PRs I'd ask you assess the last day you can reveal also and play that by ear.

Consider me voting Not_Mafia in spirit considering yesterday.

Also want to see the Mala head of Kittehs do something.

-t

^Whoops, us above

[Adaptive Heap]

We're going to claim before any lynch.

The NM / Kuroi dynamic needs to be resolved.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Anyways, I have some serious thoughts later today as it's 130am and I got work, but Plotty and I have been talking.

~M

That would be great.
What's your gamestate stuff right now?

Also, still no 2nd kill. Can we assume no SK yet?

Nope. You can assume any potential SK doesn't have a regular kill, though.

[Adaptive Heap]

Perhaps assume an SK with a single daykill.

[Adaptive Heap]

So bring the convesation back to the game. I'm certainly speccing on that point but we saw a strong scumflip, we have an FBI claim and we have a quicklynch.

Who are your top scum?

[Adaptive Heap]

Kuroi or NM. You are third on the list, but I will hold that back as you have promised us ~stuff~.

I'm slightly worried that you have me as "third on the list" considering my history with both NM and Kuroi. Not sure you're actually bothering to assess my alignment as it relates to others.
For example. Did I bus Davsto?

Bro is rather null and that makes me worried.

He's rather pushing things and I'm rather inclined to agree with what he's saying but I have a short caveat on that. I'm listening but have others to listen to.

I also want to reread Davsto going back to when he started being hopeless and a definite lynch. I was scum with him in the past and he made a conscious effort of creating false associatives, which makes any drastic read changes around then really informative.

Mokay and I'd appreciate some results here.

You might want to think about how much detail you go into here, though. Considering his pushes are: PERSIVUL TOWN ROB SCUM ADAPTIVE SCUM and not much else.

I'd like to know what your read is on Kittehs.
I have them as cautious town myself but I'd like to know where you're at.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Night one, I found out that Aeronaut is not a serial killer.

Doesn't mean he can't be scum, but at least he got that going for him.

Hum - two FBI Agents?

Show me your reaction to Persivul's FBI claim please.

(Also, regarding Roleblocking, I'm not sure if the enabled town roles that disappeared due to Davsto's lynch get notified by the mod? So getting "no result" may not indicate roleblocked. But I can also see Rob JKing you.)

VOTE: Adaptive Heap

Pretty sure they're our last faction scum and that Not_Maf is the SK.

See, this is the caveat I was talking about. Your naked votes on NM seemed to indicate to me that you were throwing out cop results.

Anyways we're claiming now. I don't really see any way around it and hopefully I'm not throwing the game (as in - there's one SK and scum need to kill them not to lose. But it's a kind of odd position to be in basically 7p-LYLO even after a scum lynch).

We're the 8th Doctor.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

To be quite honest probably the only thing saving us from guaranteed loss is hope or wifom of some kind of protect on our slot.
RIP Rob </3

I felt like we had to claim today so there wasn't risk of counterclaim (as in - if we're counterclaimed today that's a free scum lynch, so it doesn't happen) and also so that a protect if any *would* come our way.

That said I guess it's up to whoever the remaining PRs are.

---

Ugh.

I'm hating this Kuroi v Aero thing. I mean I kind of wish that Kurio CC'd Persi D1 because this would make things more simpler than they are. :\

Also I agree with BRO. I'm not going to vote Aero or Kurio based on the two roles in the same setup since Ffery did have two BG's in another game.

This game right now.

T_T

~M

Griping about the game isn't helping us win it.
I agree Aero/Kuroi *probably* get a pass for today but we have to decide who to lynch, and I think we really have to look at today as LYLO/MYLO.

Anyway I probably can't criticize lack of detailed re-reading but will get up to it.
(I've been mostly drunk for the last week - oops.)

What's your current read on BRO?

Two naked votes on NM out of the gates the last two days and then somehow manages to switch that back to a vote on us?
Gut is that's something I'm going to need to look back over.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Bro

is town. Mala and him have history together. Naked votes aren't scummy.

You're correct that they aren't scummy in and of themselves but I really had the feeling he was softing cop and had an inno on us.
Considering that's not the case I have to reassess.

Also I think you'd have to present a pretty fantastical and credulous case to assume that we bussed Davsto given Davsto's role.
*shrug* but I guess that's just my opinion. Possibly gets Bro off the hook for scum faction as well.

(Non-game-related, a detailed version of this might be delayed for a few days yet but I'll see if I can get to it any quicker. We have plenty of time today though.)

We think scum is

aristo

and one of [

notmaf

,

kuroi

], probably

notmaf

.

The last thing that I noticed about Aristo was this:

Where are your reads at, Adaptive?
I know NM is up there, but who is scummy with him?

Followed by this:

What's wrong with you as a third?
I'm looking for scum with Dav, not scum with nob-flipped entities.

Which is a fairly glaring and direct contradiction if you're only looking for a single partner with Davsto.

So yeah you could be onto something there.

It is still weird to me that

Notmaf/Kuroi

crumbed masons together. Like kuroi crumbed it and then not maf crumbed it and then kuroi confirm crumbed it and then notmaf confirmed crumbed it and then they both started shedding PR in distress tells when you asked them about the crumbs that read like "wtf stop quoting our crumbs we're not going to explain they're for later" and now they're not masons after all and in my last game I caught someone as scum because they crumbed and then didn't claim what they crumbed so I'm pretty sure there's scum in notmaf/kuroi.

It's still weird to me that you quoted their crumbs and asked them about them in the first place but I'm not counterclaiming you so you're town unless that happens and probably even then.

I didn't pick up on any mason crumbs. Just thought their entry / association thing was weird and worth following up on (and promptly got called scum for it). I hadn't thought about masons up till someone brought it up recently and kind of wrote it off until now when you're bringing it up again!

So does a masons claim between the two do anything for us? I mean I don't get why there's scum in one of the two but not both or neither with that line of thinking.

Oh by the way...

Spoiler:

Talah, has mastina been around much? Tell her I said hi.

Not much in our QT but she's been popping in to make a comment and some brief analysis here and there. We were actually hoping to roll scum this game and I know she's been busy with other priorities so when it was town I sorta gave her a hug and told her not to sweat it.
However... she did respond to your "Hi" with something that I assume I'm not allowed to directly quote, so to paraphrase...

'Not particularly, vaguely checking in randomly like WoFish activity but hopefully a bit more than the end of Tarot Upick II'

Hopefully that makes some kind of sense to you - I guess they're games you've been in together.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I just had a thought.

I suppose a scum goon and a traitor could be given a neighbourhood. (ed: afterthought - or even scum goon and SK?)

Because that's another option but it'd be kind of weird given an FBI role existing in the first place unless it was a red-herring.
Can't really see a 9+2+1+1 setup being a thing given our role plus Davsto's.

Anywhose.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Perhaps later, if necessary but I've been role blocked twice. The only role I know of not mafia is that he can role block. Has there been any word of his other roles or just that?

Can you please ask the mod if you'd be informed if you lost your investigative power?

So... by "Roleblocked" do you just mean that you got "no result"?
Or did you get an "action failed" or something similar to that.

Before you answer

you'll want to check with Rift if/how you're allowed to convey the result explicitly - we can't afford another modkill and I'm not 100% sure how it works.
This also applies to you NM as I have a similar question for you:

I'm JOAT, I have a cop shot, a roleblock and a watch shot.

N1 I copped Shiro
N2 I roleblocked Kuroi
N3 I watched Rob but my result said no one visited him

So the N3 result was a hard result? Or no result?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Thanks for that clarification Kuroi.

I'm checking things out slowly. Have re-iso'd Bro and am about halfway through Aristo.
This might be a project that spans a couple of days but I'm posting my thoughts in our hydra thread and will consult with mastina prior to making any vote.

Interested to hear back from Aristo on his claim, and Not_Mafia on clarifying his own result.
(Also am assuming that Brosiedon and Kittehs will be claiming at some stage after this.)

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Thanks.

Then if you're telling the truth that implies a ninja-kill (which we know scum have lost, at least on one player), and probably an SK. Although it doesn't explain the consistent lack of two kills very... well.

Anyway I have a different crackpot theory but that thought can wait until I get some mastina-feedback or until the gamestate resolves a bit better post-claims.

Out for today.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I don't really want to snipe here especially after I said I was gone for the day (egh external factors and this will be my last post)

But Kuroi literally said his power is confirmed to be still working because the mod would have notified him of any loss of ability.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

i don't know why i'm awake but i am so might as well

4th doc. motivator. 2/night.

night 1: bro and adaptive heap
night 2: aeronaut and adaptive heap
night 3: aeronaut and aristophanes

Adaptive heap and Aristophanes not a serial killer

aeronaut having two results.


We had thought the delayed day was cheetory's own role of posting anonymous mod messages.

--P

Bro doesn't have two neighbourhoods (unless he does).

Aero's claim I took as backfilling on his predecessor's non-claim. Waiting for clarification.

I don't see how Aero gets a double power he's informed of and can use unless Bro does as well.

@Aristo - re: literally/figuratively - let's say "functionally and explicitly" Kuroi claimed to still have his power working.

Someone slap me in the face here please.
Is there a reason Mala's not posting in this game Poltinus?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Ours is more sassy.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Wait, not you.
Aero. lol

Oh I was just gonna ask.

'Cause we're the IC at this point and you should probably know why and therefore the doc number.

Your Night 3 results please?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Who else did you check last night? Kittehs motivated you so you should have been told about your ability to perform 2 actions if Aero also did.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Sorry for the constant questions even though I've said 100 times I'm out for the day (literally)

Davsto was already dead at the point of Cheet's death, that's why I picked him.

Did you have any reason to believe that scum's kill would be delayed or removed after Davsto died?

As in, you're saying you targetted Cheetory for a gravedigger (?) role (instead of Shiro) but you got Aero as a result visiting Cheetory and now you're completely convinced Aero is town?

And why are you writing off a Serial Killer in this post after you got your results, when we know a scum ninja role has been lynched?

The fuck was that speed lynch!?
I mean, I get the reasoning, but it was a little excessive.

Also, still no 2nd kill. Can we assume no SK yet?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

No that sounds fine; especially the first part of your post (literally) sorts out some of the hassle I was having with your Cheetory gravedig.

I don't think there are two ninja roles on the scumteam. It would be impossible for any investigative role to do anything - town would be left with only functional roles (JK and Rolestopper which we've seen).

That said, yours is the only othe investigative role. We have all of you, Kuroi and NM saying your roles are intact, and no indication that *anyone* lost their roles despite Dav's claim - and you say you had confirmation that your role would be active tomorrow twice.

I'm trying to sort SK vs traitor personally but neither action trail leads to Bro/Kittehs unless there's some problem with Bro's double active not working (and I'd need to leave Kittehs to work that out unless they're *both* scum, which we don't think they are (but haven't discussed explicitly with mastina)).

Why have there not been two kills?
Why was there a Ninja kill on Rob after a scum-ninja role was lynched?
Whose roles got nerfed because of Davsto's kill?

These and other questions, in THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES.

(So I'm really out. Back in like 24 hours?)

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Despite Dav's *flip*, obv.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Howdys, just popping in to say I'm still here and looking at stuff now.

Here's where I'm up to...

I think Kuroi is actually completely off the hook based on the likelihood that Rob jailkept him and NM's claim nobody visited Rob - I can perhaps see a second scum strongman OR scum ninja but not both. That would be completely broken for scum with the roles we have outed.
I mean *maybe* a sole second scum was some kind of backup for the first? But then the first performs every kill until dead and then neither of JK or rolestopper have any effect (except for PoEing town who can all do stuff I guess).

Second scum being an Ascetic could totally be a thing. The Historian-type role that Aristo has claimed is reminiscent of the role that Bulbazak had in FE:A and there was also an Ascetic (albeit town) in that game. Without getting too tied up on mod-meta I see a lot of influence in ffery's games reflecting the richness of Cephrir's setup in that game. *shrug* maybe.

With a motivator and two FBI agents I think it's unlikely that there is an SK in this game. It would be too easy to PoE down unless we'd been seeing two kills.
I also don't think a scum motivator works when it's a confirmed role and it looks like a lot of the purpose of this setup was PoE - and scum couldn't have know that until massclaim (so why motivate town roles... unless it's compulsive).

My mafia traitor crackpot theory relied on Persivul having made the FBI Agent claim as a shout-out to the traitor, but that would rely on a second scum knowing about the existence of the traitor. (I was also under an incorrect assumption that "mafia traitor recruiter" was a thing when I was first thinking about it.)

The reason I went down this path was because of both Persivul and RC irrationally defending Davsto extremely strongly.
I guess it's also possible that one FBI Agent claim is scum and one town. That's a serious possibility and I need to revisit this and also re-read Persivul when I get to it.
Aero could hand out SK clears if he had some other kind of role - as it seems Aristo has confirmed that Aero visited Cheetory at least.

Aside from still tending town on Kittehs partly because of the role and partly because of Bro's read - I may just have to rely on / trust each of you being able to sort the other. Also as I think I mentioned Bro's bus on Davsto was all but comprehensive - which is possible with a backup role, but still unlikely. He also went out of his way to town our slot Day 2 due to mastina being unlikely to settle for Shiro as an NK. I just kind of don't get why Shiro was the lynch unless it was for the purpose that Davsto used it (ie to frame Rob), and in that case why does he town us when we're Rob's main defender?

So anyway. (Aero, NM, Aristo) from my perspective. I've been heavily leaning NM as he's been overly nonchalant about everything this game, plus his claim has him visiting 2 of the slots that were nightkilled. He's right that it's a terrible claim. But not knowing the remaining town roles it might have been the only claim he felt comfortable making. The "nobody visited Rob" result adds to SK-wifom too. Then again that would rule out Ascetic and ninja for second-scum (visited Shiro, Kuroi and Rob) which would all have been potentially deniable without knowing if there was an actual watcher/tracker in the game. But then-then again (so to speak!) the only evidence we have indicating that Rob's kill was a ninja kill, is NM's own claim.

I dunno if I'm wasting my time here trying to figure this out from an actions/claims perspective or if we're just going to end up on an Aristo lynch for today and I should just hold my breath and hope for the best, and go play Isaac or figure out how to optimise the second last Human Resource Machine puzzle instead :P

Please feel free to point out holes in my thinking.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Addendum:

Aristo claims only Cheetory was only *ever* visited by Aero. So Aero could have a ninja kill / backup ninja kill if he's a legit scum-aligned FBI Agent as well (in order to hand out results and still perform NKs). Which with a 2-scum team could have both factions barking up the SK tree.

In that case both Aristo's and NM's assessment that the (hopefully) last scum is ninja seems necessarily correct. I... think?

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I'm sorta offline for the rest of today. Aussie day public holiday today.

The mastina / me confusion is a compliment to me (thanks) but I really don't think that she and I follow the same thought processes so I'm a bit bemused that this became a point of focus between you Aristo and Plotinus. Also (and sorry ffery) I did enquire and that was not what the thread lockage was about and I'll ignore it completely from now on.

---
Not_Mafia - what are your actual reads right now, and/or what do you think are the most relevant events of the game so far?

Because I'm really not seeing anything relevant to the game from you except for your votes and claim, and they've been just as bad as each other.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Also as an aside, Frozen's role was effectively (self-)Ascetic and Rolestopper (Ascetic-maker) so (that's where the Ascetic went in this setup XD, and) I don't know how kill resolution would work in that situation.
(and also that's an Ascetic role in this setup so I'm happy :P )

Reasonable Action Resolution (as opposed to NAR I guess) I think would seem to indicate that there are two reasons Frozen would die if Davsto targetted her (Does Frozen Die?: targetted by nightkill (YES), nightkill-immune (NO), incoming kill can't be stopped (YES)) so I'm a bit skeevy on action-resolution here, especially if say the random target of Frozen's ability would prevent a nightkill.

Bro I suppose I mistakenly assumed you were pretty savvy on balance/setup topics?

Anyone who is should put their hand up imo - it probably won't win us the game to speculate and crackpot but ruling in and out what does and doesn't work might help.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I looked up Abductor and the closest I could find was a role that takes another role out of the game (same as I looked up Historian and Gravedigger for your 1-shot and couldn't find a match).

Current spreadsheet just has
NK Immune
Ascetic
Another player will become Ascetic and NK-immune

So it's more like NK-Immune rolestopper-maker and self-rolestopper-maker.

The role PM is weirdly phrased because it includes an explicit NK-immune on top of making another random player (and self) rolestopped (actions on self and other fail).
I assume the role triggers randomly and could have also applied to scum.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

But the role also says "each night".

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

The Fifth Doctor

,

Incorrigible Dapper Abductor

Your Abilities:

-

The Doctor's Weapon

: Your voice and your vote
-

Chic Sanctuary

: There isn't a suit in the universe that you don't shine in. Your dapper attire is not only stylish, it confers immunity to night kills upon you.
-

Impulsive Abductor

: You love the people of Earth perhaps a little too much. You have an addiction to stealing them away for a capers in other times and places. Each night you kidnap another player. Both you and the other player are immune to all roles that target a player, including kills. You have no control over when this ability activates nor whom it targets.

Well here it is, literally^ (and I trust that I've used the term correctly in this case).

My main thought is the redundant NK-immune (Chic Sanctuary (NK-Immune) + Impulsive Abductor, (which also gives Frozen an NK-Immune)).
The role may have been completely bulletproof even in the face of Davsto's strongman ability.

Davros

,

Kaled Scientific Elite

Your Abilities:

Time Lord Experience

: You've been fighting the Time Lords, particularly the Doctor, over space and time for centuries. You know everything about them, their stratagems, their weapons, their numbers, even their thoughts and beliefs. You can emulate them perfectly, allowing you to use your voice and your vote as if you were one of them.

Eternal Creator

: You've kept yourself alive through scientific means for centuries. And you have an army of Daleks. Really, who's going to kill you? You are immune to night kills.

Death By Proxy

: You never act personally, you're too important and frail for that. Your agents and creations, the Daleks, carry out your will throughout the known universe. You can't be tracked, watched, or cop-investigated.

Finest Weapons of War

: You were born for war. As your body could not handle the rigors of physical warfare you turned your significant mental prowess to developing weapons to utterly annihilate your enemies. Your kill can't be blocked or protected against.

Bound by Blood

: Some of your technology has been stolen by your enemies and re-purposed for use against you and your Dalek horde. What they don't know, however, is that all of your creations are tied to your life force and that they will be rendered ineffective upon your death. While you live, you enable certain actions.

Factional Abilities

- You can perform the night kill.
- Your partner is

REDACTED

- You and

REDACTED

have a factional Private Thread here. You can use the private thread during the day as well as at night.
- You know that the War Doctor is not in the game
- You can request a fake town role PM and I will craft one for you.

(which I have in the spreadsheet as)
NK-immune
Ninja/Godfather
Strongman
Enabler (2+ non-mafia roles)

However Davto's role doesn't say he'll return an Inno to a cop investigation.

Just that he's immune to Cops, Tracks and Watches

(Death By Proxy)... so not really Godfather.
I'm going to ahve to guess he'd return something like a no-result to any of these types of investigations.
Interestingly t

he ONLY player who has claimed any of this (cop, watch, track) is NM. I don't know what to think about the mod-wifom of this.

--
I mean that's a pretty strong role (Davstro) and having the role die is a massive swing toward town.
(The enabling of town-roles would SEEM to counteract that.... HOWEVER...
We've heard of no town roles with diminished abilities
Frozen's role MIGHT qualify if it only removes a redundant NK-immune
PERHAPS the other role is one of the vendor / reporter roles.)

So from a balance perspective
(in a 2-scum scenario):
I'm going to have to presume that at least one of Davsto's abilities will pass to the other scum
And also that the other scum had *at least one another* ability (possibly more).

2-Scum also had Daytalk which generally advantages scum.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

Ignore typos ty, beers kicked in despite my moratorium on beer and this hydra.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

So.

Mastina has feedback and she says Kittehs is town.

I'd like to lynch NM today but also I don't have impetus to rationalise why and I'm not sure it's true.
Would still like to see "stuff" from him.

Sheeping.
Sorry Aristo.

VOTE: Aristo

L-1

[Adaptive Heap]

Yes yes, you only have the one vote but the effort is appreciated I guess.

-t

[Adaptive Heap]

I don't get the magnet reference unless you mean it was supposed to result in two mislynches.

There could still be an SK but I'd need to default back to thinking they had some kind of nerfed killing ability, or the scumteam only had Davsto's kill, or they'd return non-SK to an FBI investigation.

Your lynch comes down to PoE and risk aversion Aristo. I was more in the NM park but I'm listening to mastina's assessment (she thinks there reasons to think everyone is town) and I have to go back to trusting that Bro/Mala can read each other. Which means if the two slots are tending you that tips the balance.

Inventing at our slot is pointless since we're dead tonight. Who's the "other townread"? Did you crumb -any- of this?

Kittehs I don't remember Aristo's play from the other completed game we played. I was tied up in loftier captain crap but he seemed not much of a risk to leave alive Day 1, therefore I've got to conclude that he's somewhere between decent and excellent in awkward situations.

I have no objections to a hammer even this early. If Aristo's lynch comes back SK I'd be looking hard at Aero's slot. Otherwise, NM.

Best of luck.

-t