NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[Wake1]

Also, everyone remember with ika in the game, to NOT put anyone to L-1 on D1 unless you want them lynched because he will hammer L-1's without warning.

If memory serves, wouldn't that be Boonskiies?

VOTE: Nosferatu

[Wake1]

Also, everyone remember with ika in the game, to NOT put anyone to L-1 on D1 unless you want them lynched because he will hammer L-1's without warning.

If memory serves, wouldn't that be Boonskiies?

Shit, it's both of them. Ugh.................

Ika does, too?

[Wake1]

Ika, Boon, please don't hammer anyone at L-1 without giving warning. Alright?

Lapsa got a soft chuckle out of me. His bit there isn't alignment-indicative, imo.

[Wake1]

ok gray is also scum

Why?

his continued rvs when there has already been plenty of conten generate to work with

You sure you're not trying to steer the conversation?

[Wake1]

So I wanna know exactly why Sala's voting ika but Shinobi's townreading him.

[Wake1]

As I said, it was the longest post I've ever seen him make. Why are you defending him so adamantly?

Because I don't think your scumread makes sense.
Besides, defending him and inquiring as to why you're scumreading him aren't necessarily the same thing.
Do you think my line of thinking is out of the ordinary?

I guess I just don't get why you are continuing to press this point. In my experience with Lapsa, it's unusual for him to make long posts with full sentences and punctuation. I thought it was worth noting with an FOS. I am generally suspicious of things that are out of the ordinary. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Haha, hey Lapsa.
Please be town. c:

I don't bite, and will not rip your head off unless I sense you're being deceitful. From a cost-benefit analysis, you have nothing to lose if you're Town, because as Town you should have absolutely no reason to lie to me about anything in this game. Some have told me I have a very sharp sense of perception, and can usually discern traits and patterns in the behaviors of others. You have literally nothing to fear if Town, and everything to fear if Scum, so, by all means, please do engage with me.

man i dont like this post at all. feels very forced tbh

vote: lapsa

He was quoting one of my posts from an older game.

You'd know this if you were paying attention to his posts.

[Wake1]

So I wanna know exactly why Sala's voting ika but Shinobi's townreading him.

Hi wake!!!

Im voting ika because RVS, and the headache he left me in the Mafia dating show.

Ill look over things when I get a chance

So your current vote has no weight.

ah

unvote

damn didnt see that thanks for pointing that out

gonna stop phoneposting from work lol. ill be in the thread later tn

You should be paying more attention.

Makes you look real eager to vote.

VOTE: redff
My vote is serious now.

Why?

Gross

VOTE: redFF

He is letting go of a scumread way too easy here. The slightest push back and he unvotes.

Do you think Lapsa is a currently valid scumread?

[Wake1]

Anna that still seems somewhat arbitrary. Do you know what Lapsa's mindset is like or are you just rolling with the "confscum" angle?

After Lapsa's post, I re read Wolfie ISO and they scream scum

So start talking.

I know her a bit more than you do.

[Wake1]

The turbo lynch attempt sucks.

Maybe instead of doing that, we should keep, you know, hunting scum.

IF it's meant to just pressure the guy into talking, I'm fine as long as no one recklessly hammers.

[Wake1]

I didn't realize you were this terrible at reading me ika.

your not doing anything to make me think any diffrent SW

Oh excuse me, the game's barely begun. You want me to start jumping through hoops? I'm already becoming annoyed at all the garbage scumreads with no reasoning. This kind of shit ruins games for me. I can't even say anything in response to any of it because it's crap or trolling or whatever the fuck it is.

...

...

...

Hm...

[Wake1]

Wolfie is very confident and competent as Town, and doesn't really get annoyed or upset.

She's vulnerable to the latter two when Scum. I want to know why ika thinks she's the same regardless of alignment.

[Wake1]

Wolfie is very confident and competent as Town, and doesn't really get annoyed or upset.

She's vulnerable to the latter two when Scum. I want to know why ika thinks she's the same regardless of alignment.

Bullshit, You said this same crap last time you were scum in a game. I get frustrated as town all the time including offsite games that you modded.

You know better.

FoS Wake for your selective memory.

Anything else you want to talk to me about?

I suppose I could prescribe you some lorazepam, but I'm not sure you'd be accepting of it.

You do seem to be more confident and a strong Town player when Town. That much I know.

Never said you were immune to frustration and anger when Town, though.

[Wake1]

Wolfie is very confident and competent as Town, and doesn't really get annoyed or upset.

She's vulnerable to the latter two when Scum. I want to know why ika thinks she's the same regardless of alignment.

Bullshit, You said this same crap last time you were scum in a game. I get frustrated as town all the time including offsite games that you modded.

You know better.

FoS Wake for your selective memory.

Anything else you want to talk to me about?

I suppose I could prescribe you some lorazepam, but I'm not sure you'd be accepting of it.

You do seem to be more confident and a strong Town player when Town. That much I know.

Never said you were immune to frustration and anger when Town, though.

Are personal comments like that really necessary Wake? Hmmm? The medication comment? Really?

It's something else.

Anyways, I'll be back later.

[Wake1]

Wolfie is very confident and competent as Town, and doesn't really get annoyed or upset.

She's vulnerable to the latter two when Scum. I want to know why ika thinks she's the same regardless of alignment.

Bullshit, You said this same crap last time you were scum in a game. I get frustrated as town all the time including offsite games that you modded.

You know better.

FoS Wake for your selective memory.

Anything else you want to talk to me about?

I agree you get frustrated as town, but you usually don't get frustrated this quickly. Your reaction seems closer to you scum game than your town game.

This is also complete and total bullshit. You just got done playing with me in a scum game in 185. How quickly did it take me to get frustrated there? You should read 181 where I replaced out as town before D1 was over plus you've seen this offsite more than once.

Seems like you have a selective memory same as Wake. I expect this from people who don't know me but not from people who have played with me a lot. I fucking DESPISE being scumread for stupid shit when I'm town.

Haven't played in months.

Memory's a bit hazy.

[Wake1]

Also, if I was scum wouldn't I just happily jump on the wagon?

Not necessarily.

You could be Scum while avoiding the wagon, too.

[Wake1]

I'm trying to sort you out, Wolfie.

Read my ISO for blatant hints.

[Wake1]

I'm thinking we should put a tad more pressure on Nosferatu for his 166.

[Wake1]

Judging by the speed with which this wagon has had, I suspect Scum are on it, and favor it.

If the wagon was on Scum, do you think it'd be allowed to reach L-1/L-2 so quickly?

[Wake1]

Reading this thread, someone said I'm playing my scum meta, but I'm actually busy with work and school.

I can't make it any clearer: my work life

does

affect my ability to play, as in post frequency and intensity.

Because of this, the way I play

has

to change to something far more brief and succinct, or I just drop Mafia.

The days of me providing large, thorough posts are over.

I don't know what to think about Wolfie's replace request. She did replace out once as Scum. I can't remember which game, and I may be wrong, but I could have sworn she reacted more angrily in one of our games when she was Scum, because it was tough keeping up the facade [and weight] of being Scum. I can't remember past games too well, and I definitely don't have time taking notes of how other players played months past.

Gonna skim through and see what's what.

[Wake1]

SolverWolfie is still probably

conf

scum

VOTE: SilverWolf

According to

what

?

Hold up, I need to look back and analyze how exactly these people are reacting. Makes no sense to me, and is stirring up my curiosity.

[Wake1]

I really don't want Wolfie to replace out. She's always a robust and interesting personality to play with.

[Wake1]

Honestly, I feel tired, and am unsure exactly how I am going to sort these fuckers out.

I don't have the brain juice to pump out big reads. That energy goes towards studies.

Um, I think I should try skimming, just look at associations and reactions, and note it.

[Wake1]

If Boonskiies and ika are willing to hammer at L-1, is it assured they both won't hammer if someone's at L-2? Just want to be clear on this point.

As for Wolfie, I don't know yet what alignment she is. I do like her, and am biased towards liking and agreeing with her. As I hoodwinked her when she was Town and I was Scum, there is the distinct possibility that she could hoodwink me as Scum when I'm Town. I'm also aware she's gained a lot of experience, and is better at playing the game now than when she and I were first playing. At the same time, I have not been playing, and through lack of practice and time my play has suffered. I think she is more capable than ever of deceiving me. All that aside, I just don't know yet... She's a good player: do not underestimate.

I like Shinobi in general, and don't know much what is Town or Scum games are. Sala likely dislikes me for stuff in the past: not sure what to expect from him this game.

I think we should take our time, and use the time we're given. Scum can and does trip up, and, by getting people to talk, we can have more and more to look at when looking into the past. It's incredibly vital for associative tells to have exchanges to look at. Let's keep talking and hunting and exchanging our thoughts. If we speedlynch someone, especially if that someone is a Town PR, Scum [of which there MAY be two factions or more], can then make their Day 1 moves. In Freshwater Frenzy, I had 3 Scum parties. Unless my eyes deceive me, I think that is possible here as well.

Would like those who are quiet to speak, and would like to hear more from nosferatu, redff, and ika... I'd like to try to sort them out first, or at least make some sort of initial effort.

[Wake1]

I'm assuming singleball, so Red-thing is probably not scum. Confession: I literally haven't read a single post of his.

I don't understand that assumption, or why that makes you think Red is probably not Scum, especially when you haven't a single post of his.

[Wake1]

I've always thought that sheeping was usually scum-indicative

I'm inclined to agree with this, assuming the person joining the vote isn't giving a reason, or a weak or very similar one. HOWEVER, if two players are voting someone for nearly the same reason, it'd help if voter #2 at least gave his or her own reasons, instead of just saying 'what he said,' or a brief line that encapsulates exactly what voter #1's reasons were.

If someone's sheeping here, they should talk more, so we can better break down where that individual lies, by checking a lot of his or her thoughts.

[Wake1]

My vote on red was full sheep.

Hm.

Could you please share in further detail why exactly you're voting for him?

[Wake1]

I'm assuming singleball, so Red-thing is probably not scum. Confession: I literally haven't read a single post of his.

I don't understand that assumption, or why that makes you think Red is probably not Scum, especially when you haven't a single post of his.

I always assume singleball until proven otherwise, and with SW-slot pushing redd, it makes the latter town.

I think it'd be better to not assume it's either singleball or multiball.

We can assume there is at least one anti-Town entity in the game. That much is certain.

Without evidence, we can't say it's for sure multiball, but we shouldn't automatically assume it's singleball, either.

Especially when you try to imply others are Town based off of that assumption.

It

may

be that SW is a Serial Killer, and Redff is Blue Scum. Or, the two could be any combination of three possible non-aligned scum forces. THEN AGAIN, and I know some may incorrectly call this WIFOM but I want us to use logic here, they could both be on the same scum team. One could be Town; they could both be Town.

What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't start implying people are Town on the faulty assumption that this is singleball. It is way too early to start making conclusions.

[Wake1]

Shinobi, can you please respond to my posts?

I want feedback, please, and I don't like feeling as if I talking to a wall.

[Wake1]

Which one am I responding to, exactly?
Sorry if I missed it, I just got back from work and I'm tired lol.

Any of it; hopefully all.

I want players to engage me in this game, or at least tell me exactly where they disagree and why.

[Wake1]

Well.

I'm looking at your posts and I don't see much I should be responding to or talking about.

I actually disliked your reads list because it seemed somewhat aimed towards making you look clueless, the only player you came to some sort of conclusion about was me and even that was somewhat wishy-washy.

Do you really think that sort of stuff is productive?

If you're Scum, you'd probably say that. If you're actually Town, then I'd want to talk with you more about this thru and after this game, because that's just weird.

I didn't post a reads list, and I don't have time to make one. This game being so early, I think it's prudent to be cautious, instead of being overly-certain. I don't think I was being wishy-washy, either.

Here, I want to engage this game: someone has to start somewhere.

I'll bring these points to you, then, so I can start extracting feedback from you.

1)

What do you feel about Lapsa saying SW was confScum? I asked him 'according to what.' What do you think?

2)

Do you think, since Boons and ika can hammer L-1, that they'd both hammer someone at L-2? I know that question is less pertinent, but I'd like to know what people think on this regardless.

3)

What do you think of Wolfie's play so far, and what do you think she's capable of?

4)

Since you are self-aware of your own play, are you willing to point out any of your alignment-indicative behaviors?

5)

Do you think we should speedlynch, or take our time? Not asking that we drag it to the last day, but at least use our time somewhat wisely.

6)

Who do you want to hear more from? Who needs more pressure?

7)

On my 441, I don't think players should be implying players are Town based on the assumption the game is singleball. I don't make assumptions: I keep all possibilities in the back of my mind, and play accordingly.

8)

What do you think of 442 where I spoke with nosferatu about sheeping?

Anyone else here is encouraged to engage me. Rather we be active than not. Since ika and nosferatu and you are on, please share your thoughts.

[Wake1]

Hi ika.

Honestly wake, I know I've had a bit of trouble reading you in the past and I generally don't talk about stuff unless I have a really solid opinion on it, so I was kind of avoiding you for a little bit because I know you tend to fixate on things that I generally ignore for the majority of the game.

If you want to talk about something, talk to me about Quaroath maybe?

Eh.

I feel like you're finding a reason to not engage me, and then redirecting the conversation towards Quaroath, and ika's with you on that.

Not saying that to be mean, and I'm saying that with respect. I'm being honest with how I really feel reading your response in 454 just now, and saying so so the other 18 players know it.

I haven't really read Quaroath's posts yet, but chances are I'll talk with and discuss him soon, but for now I feel you should talk with me more about the issues I'm bringing up to you now. I'd like you to talk with me about my game-related points while we're both here, instead of you sort of dismissing it and saying we should talk Quaroath. We can talk about him later. Let's talk about this now. Please?

[Wake1]

Briefly, I felt there's a Scum-connection between Shinobi and ika, but it's just a feeling. I'm usually wrong during Day 1 when it comes to feeling out who's what. If either of you guys feel like voting me for voicing that slight feeling, you're free to, but it'd make me wonder a bit more, but not in a way that'd make me feel you're Town.

[Wake1]

Alrighty, works for me, let's do it:

1) Lapsa is a unique player in the sense that he doesn't post walls and thoughts like a regular scumhunter. A lot of the time, he'll attach videos and pictures to posts and he'll say stuff that can be somewhat off-the-wall from what you're used to. I just got finished playing two scumgames against him and I've seen him townplay first hand, so nothing out of the ordinary there yet. (Though I don't begrudge him for going after SW the way he has, considering it's a read based on prior experience and can apply to this game.)

2) /shrug, I honestly don't know. My experience with IML and quickhammers is actually somewhat limited compared to my experience with plurality lynch. I've never even played with ika before.

3) I agree that SW is a dangerous player and her style of writing has fooled me in the past, specifically in that large NY game we played together. I'm reserving judgement for now.

4) Uhhhhh...Good luck with that. I'm notoriously difficult to read even when I play as townily as possible. I can be amazingly anti-town as town sometimes but that's really the only thing I can think of.

5) I'm all for using our time wisely and I'd rather not lynch immediately.

6) Quoaroth or w/e his name is.

7) I understood this after the fact.

8) I don't necessarily agree. How do you intend to make lynches happen without sheeping? Like...It could be, but I don't think accusing someone of sheeping is a necessarily valid tell on its own.

Pedit: Well, I want to talk about Qua. Do you have an opinion on him?

...

1)

I know a little of Lapsa, and am aware of some bits of odd play. Not enough known to come to a solidified opinion of him.

2)

Boons, ika, could you answer this, please?

3)

I'll reserve judgment as well. Too early for me to tell.

4)

So there's nothing you can tell me of your posts I should look for to extrapolate and use in judging your alignment?

5)

That is good.

6)

Just him on both counts currently?

7)

What does that mean? Does that mean you agree with me on my points regarding TSO's implication that Redff is Town based on him currently assuming we're only dealing with singleball?

8)

Lynches can happen with sheeping, but it's better for lynches to happen with grounded reasons behind them. Not that sure sheeping is alignment-indicative, but it's sort of intellectually lazy, in that you're not really providing much of your own content on

why

you're voting the way you are, which deprives Town of useful information down the road.

I have not read Qua's posts. Since you have responded to my points, I'll skim over his ISO at least, and may provide thoughts on him in a little while.

[Wake1]

Ika, would you be willing to respond to my 460, like Shinobi did?

Please?

I want to know where you two differ on the current gamestate.

[Wake1]

I can't make you communicate with me on the game.

I don't think they're irrelevant, and your response would help me understand a little better what you think and maybe a little better where you stand.

Engaging is productive. Shinobi engaging with me was productive, in that I feel I can trust him just a touch more. Your refusal to really talk with me about the game isn't automatically going to make me distrust you, but it's not going to help me trust you, either. We should be active and talking and sharing our thoughts and challenging each other. By not doing that with me, even if it's to utterly uproot my points, deprives Town of information to utilize. If there were only two options, one being you completely destroying my points openly by posting, or two saying it's irrelevant and saying it's not productive, I'd rather you choose the former.

[Wake1]

i would say most if not all have already been asnwered by my iso.

That feels like a generic excuse, in that that excuses you from answering me, and instead forces me to search through over 400 posts just to find if indeed your ISO answers those questions. It's... well, it's a bit lazy. And I feel it's lazy because the next time you argue with me, or ask me anything, when we are 1,000 posts in, all I have to say is 'search my ISO.' That would spare me having to actually engage you and answer or refute you, and if I were to be Scum, well, that'd be pretty convenient. I don't think you'd want to look through hundreds of posts, and if that'd be the only way to find the answers you're looking for, that'd be pretty inconvenient, and a waste of your time, especially when, if I've supposedly already covered it in my ISO, I can simply and briefly reiterate in a matter of mere minutes.

I know I'm Town. I don't know if you're Town. If you are Town, working with me would be a good thing. While you would not know what I know about my alignment, you would show that you're a team player, and willing to engage and work together with the other players here.

[Wake1]

i would say most if not all have already been asnwered by my iso.

Just answer the questions.

Interesting movement by Shinobi to ika regarding all this.

Somewhat convincing. Somewhat.

Maybe,

maybe

slightly contrived and ever-so-gently forced....

[Wake1]

For the enjoyment of the game, should we just lynch ika? I'm not saying he looks super scummy, but his apathy and refusal to seriously participate kinda bothers me.

If he's this apathetic, why is he even here?

[Wake1]

And now, according to his reads list, he's ignoring me.

Gee, pardon me for respectfully you game-related questions, in the hopes that you'd actually participate in this game.

Can we get some pro-Town players in here to actually, you know, engage?

[Wake1]

I feel Wake has played enough with Ika to know this and is being disingenuous by jumping on Ika with everyone right now.

Wait a minute.

What exactly constitutes 'jumping on' to you?

Did you read my exchange with ika at all?

Because it feels like you didn't, and missed some things.

[Wake1]

I have Ika as town. He seriously lurks as scum and usually only posts when absolutely necessary, like when prodded or to avoid a prod. He has posted quite a bit here even if several people don't like what he's posting. I feel Wake has played enough with Ika to know this and is being disingenuous by jumping on Ika with everyone right now.

I am scum reading the SW slot. If you look back in the thread, 2 different people have linked games where she replaced out as scum. It hasn't happened just once. She was also arguing that we should be reading her as town due to her meta at the same time claiming she could change her meta at will. I'd like to see what the replacement does before I make a decision one way or the other.

Shinobi is town. He is asking questions and probing to look for responses in a way that says town to me.

I'm going back and forth on Salamence. I didn't like the push for a quick lynch. I understand not wanting useless pages to read though but there is no reason to cut off the natural flow of conversation. His posting has been better lately which is why I am not leaning scum on him right now.

Annadog reads scum to me. She has been posting mostly fluff. I pointed this out in an earlier post. She does think SW is scum which would normally make me think town, but she could be bussing and I think that is unlikely. So I'm wrong on one of them but I need to see more from Anna and the SW slot to figure it out.

It shouldn't matter if he's posted much or not: that's not necessarily alignment-indicative.

As I said before, I haven't played in a long while, and don't remember much of my past games.

To me it feels like you're being pretty selective regarding Shinobi.

[Wake1]

I feel paranoid.

Will be back around 2pm today.

[Wake1]

Spoiler: 0001

CTRL + F

[0000]

TSO

[0001]

Gamestate

[0000]

TSO

Mainly, I dislike TSO's thinking that RedFF is Town based on his assumption that this game is singleball.* Reading rather quickly up to this point, #563 @3pm CTZ 8/9/15, I don't think TSO has responded to me at all about this... Unless I have missed something, I don't understand why he would avoid me, and I do start to wonder when players are avoiding me, or deflecting, or trying to change the subject. Just makes me want to dig at it more, maybe unravel more stuff. Honestly, I can be as aggressive as I want to be to pry apart that crate, but I would rather TSO show me in-game respect by engaging me personally, in a manner a pro-Town player would. TSO knows that outside of this game we've got no problems, and that I like him, which also gives me some ephemeral reason to pause a moment... and think. I.... hm.... More pressure votes on TSO would be a good thing. I need to gauge him, and try to get at the root of why exactly he's behaving this way. Whatever the case, my curiosity has definitely piqued.

[0001]

Gamestate

At the present moment, I'm not certain what the Setup is. Unlike TSO, I don't think it is prudent to assume one way or another right now. I think we should keep the possibilities open in the back of our minds. It may be singleball, or it may be two 3-player Scum teams with Daytalk and a Serial Killer. Without further evidence, we cannot deduce further. What must not be done, is assuming the Setup is one way, and then deciding someone's alignment based on that assumption. It's a Closed Setup, with an unknown number and quantity of Scum factions, and, iirc, this game may not even be balanced. It could be sort of like my Freshwater Frenzy, which made full use of the new guidelines. Whatever the case, let's... let's keep an open mind and err on the side of caution. My nature is to suspect the worst and, even if it's not nearly as bad, player under those worst of conditions. Meaning, should we win and it not be the worst case scenario, splendid.

[Wake1]

Spoiler: 0002

CTRL + F

[0000]

TSO

[0001]

Gamestate

[0002]

ika

[0000]

TSO

Mainly, I dislike TSO's thinking that RedFF is Town based on his assumption that this game is singleball.* Reading rather quickly up to this point, #563 @3pm CTZ 8/9/15, I don't think TSO has responded to me at all about this... Unless I have missed something, I don't understand why he would avoid me, and I do start to wonder when players are avoiding me, or deflecting, or trying to change the subject. Just makes me want to dig at it more, maybe unravel more stuff. Honestly, I can be as aggressive as I want to be to pry apart that crate, but I would rather TSO show me in-game respect by engaging me personally, in a manner a pro-Town player would. TSO knows that outside of this game we've got no problems, and that I like him, which also gives me some ephemeral reason to pause a moment... and think. I.... hm.... More pressure votes on TSO would be a good thing. I need to gauge him, and try to get at the root of why exactly he's behaving this way. Whatever the case, my curiosity has definitely piqued.

[0002]

ika

From what I remember of ika in past games, I could have sworn he, as Town, got more involved in the game, and made large and thorough posts. Don't quote me on this. This game, it's like he's a much different person, now. Taciturn... obstinate? My feelers are out. He's ignoring me, and avoiding me, and refusing to really engage with me on anything. I'm not a bad player, and I don't think I deserve being ignored like that, in a sort of dismissive way. He's just... apathetic this game, and, from my limited experience with him, this is new. I don't think any of those traits necessarily make him Scum, but they don't make him pro-Town one bit. I don't understand his extreme refusal to even engage me, and I'm being nice and respectful towards him, to boot! This gives me just reason to wonder. I don't understand it, he won't talk, and it's just... new, in not a good way. Where's the old ika who'd at least argue with me a lot and try to sort me out? The guy who'd challenge my points, and get me talking. Not getting any of that from him this game yet. He's also saying it's singleball when we can't know that. * I think what really hurts Town is players who just refuse to be helpful. That's how ika is playing so far, and it's not going to help things at all this game. Refusing to talk and using the ISO excuse to not play is lame, and definitely anti-Town.* That 479 and his disrespectful insult in it just sucks. Not playing good there at all, assuming you're Town. If he's refusing to participate, and is just gonna be a jerk, I'd rather not have here any more. Honestly, I don't remember him being useless and mean like this across the forum. And to top it all off, he's now got me on ignore, like what the heck did I even do?*

[0001]

Gamestate

At the present moment, I'm not certain what the Setup is. Unlike TSO, I don't think it is prudent to assume one way or another right now. I think we should keep the possibilities open in the back of our minds. It may be singleball, or it may be two 3-player Scum teams with Daytalk and a Serial Killer. Without further evidence, we cannot deduce further. What must not be done, is assuming the Setup is one way, and then deciding someone's alignment based on that assumption. It's a Closed Setup, with an unknown number and quantity of Scum factions, and, iirc, this game may not even be balanced. It could be sort of like my Freshwater Frenzy, which made full use of the new guidelines. Whatever the case, let's... let's keep an open mind and err on the side of caution. My nature is to suspect the worst and, even if it's not nearly as bad, player under those worst of conditions. Meaning, should we win and it not be the worst case scenario, splendid.

[Wake1]

I'm willing to bet anything ika is town - I'd really appreciate if we could just run with that.

Why?

[Wake1]

Time to release a seal.

[Wake1]

Annadog40

———

Only in this game, currently, what does your gut say about Silverwolf?

Boonskiies

———

Are you scumreading anyone currently?

Creede73

———

Thoughts on Spiffeh's 537?

GrayFoxxxx

———

I'm hoping you're gonna contribute a lot more than that, Sir.

Ika

———

You gonna ignore me the whole game?

Kop

———

Gotta scope you out: which ones wouldn't you vote for so far?

Lapsa

———

What think you of TSO's insistence in voting for GrayFoxxxx?

Mahonster

———

Your 525 could be elaborated on.

Nosferatu

———

I'd like you to contribute more, please.

Ozgin

———

Based on your experience with TSO, what're you thinking?

Quaroath

———

The vote on Grayfoxx, 'not engaging,' thoughts on ika's same?

RedFF

———

Why exactly are you sure Silverwolf is Scum?

Salamence20

———

If we quicklynch, we get deprived of information.

Shinobi

———

Tentatively, I feel you're Town, but I've been wrong before.

Silverwolf

———

Respectfully, I'll vote for TSO if and when I wish to.

Skybird

———

Between SIlverwolf and Annadog40 who'd you vote for and why?

Spiffeh

———

Please explain 537 in more detail.

T S O

———

Could you elaborate the ika thing to someone outside that loop?

Texcat

———

Who're your top three scumreads currently, ma'am?

Zebulin

———

Come on, please step on in and engage.

[Wake1]

Silverwolf

———

Respectfully, I'll vote for TSO if and when I wish to.

I don't care if you vote for him or not. You said he needs votes/pressure so I was asking why you think that but aren't going to vote it. That was my question. Why?

However, you are voting for Nos. Do you think Nos is scum and why?

I go back and forth on Nos, sometimes I think he's scum and sometimes I think he's not giving a fuck town. idk here so if you have an opinion on this, or his wagon, that would be great to hear.

I've been meaning to unvote, since it was a random vote.

I do want ika and TSO to talk more, so I'll start with this.

VOTE: T S O

I haven't voted for ika yet because he's basically ignoring me, and I don't think he'd respond in a contributory way anyway.

[Wake1]

Would you be willing to provide links to your latest scum games, Wolfie?

[Wake1]

Creede73

———

Thoughts on Spiffeh's 537?

I really don't see how ika and I are scum buddies.

Wouldn't it have been better to adamantly say that you aren't Scum?

Either you know you aren't Scum or you are.

[Wake1]

I doubt I'll be talking much more than I am at present.

Makes me feel you've got something to hide, to be brutally honest, friend.

If someone was asking me questions, and I started to clam up, what the hey would you think?

[Wake1]

I don't know. I do have slight gut disturbances when it comes to Silverwolf, Shinobi, ika, and TSO.

Anyone wanna compare and contrast that with me? Engage me come on now.

[Wake1]

I'm trying to sense who's trying to glide by seeming Town, and am working on getting better at sensing even remotely fake here.

Gonna re-skim and take it a bit slower through this thread.

[Wake1]

Feeling like I can uproot something based on the associatives so far, but I'm not quite there yet.

At least

one of them is active

. Pretty damned sure.

Gotta keep digging and pushing and questioning and observing and contradicting.

What I should do is focus on being even more sensitive and discerning, and then target those little things with pin-point accuracy.

Give me more time. Gonna keep at it for now.

[Wake1]

Need to question more

why

players are navigating the way they are.

I know how Scum can move, because I've watched them in my games.

[Wake1]

I doubt I'll be talking much more than I am at present.

Makes me feel you've got something to hide, to be brutally honest, friend.

If someone was asking me questions, and I started to clam up, what the hey would you think?

I feel you're misconstruing what my words were. I feel I'm talking enough. As it is, I'm probably the highest poster in the game right now. For instance, I have significantly more posts than you.

You having more posts than me means... nothing.

I don't feel you're talking enough, and although you're not clamming up to the extent ika is, your very reaction to me tells me you're slowly breaking down that line of communication... temporarily.

The mind wants to know why, in exacting detail. Don't want to make assumptions, and would rather have the truth from you on this instead of wondering or attempting to pry it out of you. I want to know. I want to know, and you do have time to continue talking, I would think. If you are Town, as I am, we must establish these lines of communication. I have absolutely nothing to hide, and everything to question and discuss.

[Wake1]

Lapsa——— What

think you

do you think

of TSO's insistence in voting for GrayFoxxxx?

has to be

It is

because of my vote on him. postern omgus

or scum

Spoiler: reasoning has been vaguely legible thus far

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TSO

This is scum.

kill it with fire

People can do what they want, but I'd really rather it be something productive. Hint: vote Grey.

Any chance you'd be my hero and throw your vote on Grey while you catch up?

...

I did not ask about your vote on TSO.

I asked you what you thought about TSO's insistence on voting for Grayfoxxxx.

You responded by mentioning your vote, his 'postern omgus,' and his posts about wanting grayfoxxxx lynched.

In the post of yours I am quoting, not once did you respond with your own thoughts on why TSO is insisting grayfoxx should be lynched.

If you believe 'or scum' suffices, it honestly doesn't.

So... ok, what do you think about TSO's wanting grayfoxxxx to be lynched? I'd like to hear you say for yourself what you think about it. If you would, please.

[Wake1]

If I have more posts than you, it likely means I'm speaking my mind more than you're speaking yours.

The lines of communication are entirely open - for example, I'm happy to discuss a wide range of subjects, like why Grey is a great vote. If you don't want to communicate, it isn't my fault.

Regarding us, I did not say this:

'I doubt I'll be talking much more than I am at present.'

Sure, you've been speaking your mind.

That doesn't mean you didn't show reservation regarding 598. You did respond regarding 593. I would like to know more, because I'm off-put by ika's new turn of playing.

[Wake1]

I'm actually quite comfortable, because I'm afforded the freedom of absolutely no limitation when it comes to my curiosity.

Theoretically, I could metaphorically drill into as many people as I want with game-related questions, to stir up discussion and useful info.

Per the last sentence of 631, I'm aware of that, which is why I'm engaging so much, and aim to continue doing so with you respectfully.

[Wake1]

Because I do not know if she is Scum, and I'd rather search through her scum games because there may be slight hints in there that could be used here, to better discern if she's scum or not.

[Wake1]

Because I do not know if she is Scum, and I'd rather search through her scum games because there may be slight hints in there that could be used here, to better discern if she's scum or not.

This looks like selective meta hunting.

I would think to get a complete picture, you would want to see town games as well.

And I could ask for all PTs, too, but time for me is very limited.

[Wake1]

I would vote for grayfoxxxx right now but he's not here and I don't know how much good it would do unless we are ready to lynch him. He's very inactive unfortunately.

...

Hm....

...

Can't tell for sure...

Hm....

[Wake1]

You sure you're not trying to steer the conversation?

No...ika's just pretty obvtown from his very first post. This is town ika.

Also,why do you keep worrying about ika quickhammering at L-1?

I don't have your level of abject confidence... or naivete.

Words matter. When you say I'm worrying about something, when I'm not, it looks like you're spinning it a bit. To reiterate, I don't like how players auto-hammer when a player is at L-1 [both ika and Boons]. There have been more than some instances of Townies [including PRs] being lost because of it. A risk like that is not one I'm willing to take. When you plan to hammer someone, because you're not working for yourself but part of a team [presumably Town] you announce intent and wait.

[Wake1]

Game Development

Silverwolf mentions she's a unique PR, that there are four Neighborhoods, and that she can ask questions through the Mod if she wants to.



Now I'm interested.

However, we should not be revealing roles like this Day 1. This is what happened in my LN, too.

[Wake1]

Sigh

The Penthouse obviously refers to the mafia

Does it?

[Wake1]

You know, bickering only hurts Town.

[Wake1]

@Wake: I can't see anything else it could refer to, I doubt there would be a neighborhood that couldn't be entered just for the hell of it. Although there is a possibility that it could just be a normal one, I don't see anything against my argument.

@Lapsa: I don't belong to one either

Considering the new Normal guidelines, there's a lot that could be possible in this Large normal game.

In Freshwater Frenzy, I had, iirc, three different neighborhoods. Why would a Mafia PT be called the Penthouse, and why would a claimed Town PR be allowed to ask questions there through the Mod? We need to inquire further. The worst thing can do right now is jump to conclusions, and rush to assuming it's a Scum PT. That's just logic.

Also, could you talk with me about your thoughts on Creede73?

[Wake1]

VOTE: wake

Seem pretty defensive of the mafia PT, arent you?

Considering I'm saying that it's not wise to automatically assume that the Penthouse must be a Mafia PT, what you're saying makes absolutely zero sense.

Why are you twisting my words?

[Wake1]

Why would a Mafia PT be called the Penthouse, and why would a claimed Town PR be allowed to ask questions there through the Mod?

I can't visit the Penthouse or ask questions there.

OK.

Do you assume the Penthouse must be a Scum PT?

Because I don't think we should assume that just yet.

It could be a design to throw us off, and make us think it must be a Scum PT. Remember that one game where I put you in a hood with three other Scum? Something tricky like that.

[Wake1]

Wait. If you SW were told they were all neighborhoods, then it's not possible those neighborhoods could be a Mafia PT, because they're different groups of hidden threads.

Salamence, I'm not defensive over this supposedly locked hood. What I took issue with was the assumption that it had to have been a Scum PT. We now know for sure it isn't.

At this point, I really don't understand the nature of the locked thread, and I don't know if it's really wise for Town to inquire further. Honestly, I don't think any of this should have been leaked, because if SW is a Town PR, she's now a target. It does feel, and I think you could agree, that more often than not during Day 1 at least one Town PR is claimed, and this shouldn't happen, because it gives Scum useful information. Presuming you and I are members of Town, we should be denying Scum as much helpful information to them as possible. Please get past what you think of me personally, and share with me what you honestly think of my position on this. I don't think any more Town PRs should claim, unless it's at LI, and intent to hammer has been voiced.

[Wake1]

This PR isnt something mafia care about today.

Someone ask areo the definition of Neighborhoods

It's still presumably a Town PR, which is worth more to them killing over a Vanilla Townie. I don't know what Scum is thinking, but I do suspect they, if given the choice, would attempt to kill a PR over a VT. That much I would argue.

I don't think Aero would consider a Neighborhood and a Scum PT to be the same. If Aero wants to clarify this [and I would not mind that] he can.

[Wake1]

With respect, am I correct in assuming that Aeronaut, Cheetory, and Vettrock are the co-Mods of this game? [Saw no mention of this in the OP, so wanted to be certain]

[Wake1]

Thank you.

[Wake1]

Annadog40

Implies in 117 that after rereading Silverwolf's ISO it screams scum to her. Says Salamence20 is probably not Vanilla, 218. Votes for Nosferatu in 268 because he says the support for the RedFF wagon is flip-floppy. Skybird outs Annadog40 as being in a Neighborhood with her, and says that Annadog40 wants to lynch Silverwolf, to which she replies by saying "not cool," 562. In that same post, Annadog40 says she's acting the same way there as she is in this thread. In response to Skybird's 581 which asks if Annadog40 is denying if she said in her Neighborhood that she wants to lynch Silverwolf, Annadog40 responds by saying the same thing in-game, which doesn't clarify whether or not she said this in the Neighborhood. In spite of having said Silverwolf's ISO screamed Scum, and voting for her in-game and voicing wanting to lynch her in her Neighborhood, Annadog40, in 633, says she thinks Silverwolf is going up the Town scale. In 641 mentions she thought Silverwolf wasn't real, and made up imaginary Scum posts about her. In the same post, states she said 'WE gotta lynch Wolfie' in 'the Hog.' As of 696, her top Scumread is Nosferatu, and states there's enough in his ISO for him to be the Day 1 lynch.

How I Read This

I want to understand why exactly she said, so early on, how Silverwolf's ISO screamed Scum to her. What makes a person that confident by post 117 in a Large Normal? Regarding that, I think she's being overconfident in that regard, but it's too early to tell if that makes her Scum. Her saying Salamence20 is probably not Vanilla is something I'd like her to discuss in further detail. Also I'd like to know better why she's voting for Nosferatu. Her being in a Neighborhood and her reaction to Skybird outing them, and her voicing wanting to lynch Silverwolf does not give me reason to think she's either Town or Scum, and if anyone thinks otherwise they're free to explain why. What I do find a little contradictory is how, in spite of what she's said about Silverwolf, that's she's knowing going up as a Townread. Maybe that's a genuine feeling, but it just feels like an extreme turn in her reads, so it does feel a bit suspicious. I didn't like how she said she made up imaginary Scum posts about Silverwolf, which makes me turn my head a bit and wonder what's up with that. Lastly she wants Nosferatu dead, because he's her top Scumread and that there's enough there for him to hang today. Well, I want to hear more on her case, and why he's got to be the one in her eyes. As of right now she's Leaning-Scum pending how she responds to this post.

Questions

01)

'The Hog,' per your ISO. Do you mean 'the hood'?

02)

Could you cite the reasons exactly why Silverwolf's ISO screamed Scum?

03)

You said Salamence20 is probably not Vanilla. Why?

04)

When you said 'acting the same way there as here,' what exactly does that mean?

05)

If Nosferatu isn't lynched today, who is your 2nd choice and why?

06)

The part about making up imaginary Scum posts: I don't understand this.

07)

Will you go into more detail why Nosferatu should be lynched today?

08)

I'm curious to know exactly what you think of my alignment thus far. Let's broach that subject.

09)

You went from an extreme against Silverwolf, to saying she's becoming more of a Townread. Would you clarify your reasons?

[Wake1]

Besides the more that I think about it all, why is posts about speculations of set up being discussed ON DAY ONE, we haven't seen any of the night actions, which would give us a further insight to what could be in this game. Posts like that, is an attempt to look pro town and your trying to find scum.

VOTE: wake

Could you point them out, please?

I do recall telling TSO that it wasn't wise to form a Townread on someone based on the faulty assumption that this game must be singleball.

If you care to, I'll discuss this with you openly and honestly, because I have nothing to hide.

[Wake1]

Wake...I don't think Anna is scum. Do I think she's being anti-town? Yes.

Sky and I are trying to get Anna to cooperate in our neighborhood, so hopefully we can get some solid reads from Anna.

While I appreciate you sharing you game-view on Annadog40, the timing of it, eh, I don't know. In your own words, why is she being anti-town to you?

So it's you, Skybird, and Annadog in this supposed Neighborhood. I would rather you guys kept this a secret, because it helps Scum.

[Wake1]

How likely do people think that there is one scum in each neighborhood?

If we think that is likely, wouldn't it be useful to out them?

Are you saying you support outing Neighbors?

I want to know where you stand on this.

[Wake1]

This PR isnt something mafia care about today.

Someone ask areo the definition of Neighborhoods

Why would mafia not care about this PR? Would you like to elaborate your point here, because as far as I think about SW role, surely with her questions to the mod, she can gain information, to something that mafia won't want her to get, or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Not TO the mod. THROUGH the mod. It's just a way to talk in the hoods without them knowing who I am. If they were all town hoods, why would that matter?

When I was scum in 185 we all had access to the hoods because there was a member in each. So we all knew who was in what hood, names of hoods, what was said in hoods. We could see who town was suspecting, pick up PR hints, find out what was being said about each one of us and bring it back to the Scum PT. In 180 Ozgin, myself, and Aero all manipulated neighborhoods to our advantage. The only time I have not wanted neighborhoods outed is when I've been scum.

More information is good for town. Scum has a good chance of already knowing what I know. Now, town knows it too.

Isn't it true that a Scum player could be given the same exact ability?

I am not saying you are Scum. I am saying your role claim does not automatically confirm you as Town.

[Wake1]

I am unfamiliar with neighborhoods and how often scum are in them, which is why I want the general consensus.

I know that if we believe that there is a scum in each one (as SW said there was precedent for) then it would be more beneficial to out them because only townies would be left in the dark.

It depends on the moderator.

For example, as a game Mod I do use many Neighborhoods.

I could create a large Hood and make everyone Town, or create a small one and put nothing but Scum in it.

On average, I would opine there's a fair chances there's at least one Scum in a 3-player Hood, but don't assume it.

[Wake1]

Wake...I don't think Anna is scum. Do I think she's being anti-town? Yes.

Sky and I are trying to get Anna to cooperate in our neighborhood, so hopefully we can get some solid reads from Anna.

While I appreciate you sharing you game-view on Annadog40, the timing of it, eh, I don't know. In your own words, why is she being anti-town to you?

So it's you, Skybird, and Annadog in this supposed Neighborhood. I would rather you guys kept this a secret, because it helps Scum.

I don't understand what's wrong with my timing? I logged on, saw your comment, had just mere minutes before talked in the neighborhood PT about you to Sky and Anna, and also asked Anna a question.

Then I flipped to the game thread, saw your post, and decided to comment on it.

Yes, it's me, sky, and Anna. Why is me outing I'm the third member a bad thing? Why are you afraid of that? It was already well known that Anna and Sky were neighbors, so why is it so bad that people know I'm the third member?

Anna is being anti-town for reasons I would like to keep in the PT between myself, her, and Sky, so you'll just have to respect that.

Wait.

Let's make

one thing

clear.

Nowhere

am I afraid of anything here. I want to know exactly why you feel I'm somehow afraid of you outing your apparent hood. I don't think it's wise for presumed Townies to be outing anything Day 1 without good reason, because it gives Scum information to work with.

When you responded right after I gave my focused read on Annadog40, it felt to me like you were coming to her defense, and trying to make it sound convincing, in that yeah you do think she's anti-town, but not Scum. I don't know what she is, but I do want her feedback, and I have reservations about you speaking on her behalf like that. I would rather she speak for herself first. I'm trying to sort her out, but in order to do so I need to see how she behaves in response to me. You outing yourself doesn't help Town, and, in my opinion, lessens the power of your ability to speak covertly amongst yourselves, because that element of surprise is gone. That's not to say one or more of you can't be Scum, but if you three are in fact Town, you no longer have that edge. Now Scum knows there's a presumably Town PR, three claimed Neighbors, and, what, four Neighborhoods? How many more damaging leaks can Town tolerate?

I'm also not sure what to make of you saying Anna is being anti-town, but at same time, after outing yourself, you're somehow not willing to explain in your own words why you think she's anti-town, which does make me wonder where exactly the line is when it comes to what you're willing to cross. Revealing all this stuff? Good? Sharing why you think someone is anti-town? Bad? Come on now.

[Wake1]

This PR isnt something mafia care about today.

Someone ask areo the definition of Neighborhoods

Why would mafia not care about this PR? Would you like to elaborate your point here, because as far as I think about SW role, surely with her questions to the mod, she can gain information, to something that mafia won't want her to get, or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Not TO the mod. THROUGH the mod. It's just a way to talk in the hoods without them knowing who I am. If they were all town hoods, why would that matter?

When I was scum in 185 we all had access to the hoods because there was a member in each. So we all knew who was in what hood, names of hoods, what was said in hoods. We could see who town was suspecting, pick up PR hints, find out what was being said about each one of us and bring it back to the Scum PT. In 180 Ozgin, myself, and Aero all manipulated neighborhoods to our advantage. The only time I have not wanted neighborhoods outed is when I've been scum.

More information is good for town. Scum has a good chance of already knowing what I know. Now, town knows it too.

Isn't it true that a Scum player could be given the same exact ability?

I am not saying you are Scum. I am saying your role claim does not automatically confirm you as Town.

No it doesn't. But I'm not sure I'm liking how worried you are about this info. getting out or casting doubt on me when I want it to be outed.

We should be selective on what we reveal and what we don't about the hoods to a certain extent sure.

I do think my role, and the fact that I could remain anonymous means they are not all town. I have the word inspector in my role.

...

...I said your claim does not automatically confirm you as Town—and it does not—and in your response you mention how you don't like how I'm supposedly worried about this info getting out.

Also said is you saying I'm casting doubt on you.

Am I casting doubt on you when I state the truth, that your claim can't auto-confirm you as Town?

You agree with me. You just said so. How is that then doubtcasting?

My belief, as an honest member of Town, is that members of Town should reveal nothing regarding their specific roles unless they're at L-1 and someone has claimed intent to hammer. That has and always has been my stance.

What I don't like is how some players here are trying so carefully to twist that. There's no getting around it. Doing that is not good for Town, and it gives info to Scum. That's not me being worried Scum, that's me being Town saying 'hey, you're helping Scum by revealing role information.' Why do you think Scum in general try to pry information out of players as to what they are power-wise?

There do exist roles in normal games that at face value sound Townish, but can be utilized by Scum. Mafia Doctor, Mafia Tracker, Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Inspector? Whether the game is single or multiball, it is indeed possible that Scum could have that power role. Just the possibility is what I'm pointing out to stifle rampant assumption. Whether you are Scum or Town I do not know, and your PR revelation doesn't really sway my mind on it one way or another. That's just how I honestly feel at the moment.

[Wake1]

NOWHERE did I speak on her behalf.

I said I THINK she is town. She is free to answer your questions all she wants.

I posted in our neighborhood thread at 4:19 and 4:21, you posted at 4:27. I'm sorry the timing seems strange to you, but it's when I was online.

I think in regards to your last paragraph, you can figure out what I'm doing if you put your mind to it.

It felt to me that right after my focused read of her you say you think she's Town.

However, being an honest and unafraid Townie who's willing to be flexible, it's also possible that you really are Town and opining that she's Town. Whether I should give you that benefit of the doubt I don't know, because I do not know you, and have never played with you before. On the philosophical matter of being Town, maybe it is better that I am willing to trust members here rather than distrust them, so as to form better communications with you guys. I could trust you on this, but at the same time I'd put this instance in a folder in my mind, just in case one of you were to flip Scum/Town, for the sake of looking into associative tells.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly believe she's Town, and that the timing of it is just coincidental. As for your last sentence, I don't know what to think of it.

[Wake1]

Grayfox your lurking is really concerning do you have anything else to add? Like clearly you're paying attention but you still contribute next to nothing.

Not really, although Anna is pinging as scummy after reading the cases. I'm very baffled by her "making up a fake person, but they are really real".

Are you not more concerned about the part where she says she made up imaginary Scum posts?

[Wake1]

Ok yeah Grayfox is also scum.

Why?

[Wake1]

On Grayfoxxxx, it'd help if I knew his past games and if he lurks as one alignment or the other or both.

Because of my time constraints, I have no time to be delving into players' off-game histories.

[Wake1]

It felt to me that right after my focused read of her you say you think she's Town.

However, being an honest and unafraid Townie who's willing to be flexible, it's also possible that you really are Town and opining that she's Town. Whether I should give you that benefit of the doubt I don't know, because I do not know you, and have never played with you before.

You have played with me before...but barely. I was the other head of Big the Cat in Baccano mafia.

On the philosophical matter of being Town, maybe it is better that I am willing to trust members here rather than distrust them, so as to form better communications with you guys. I could trust you on this, but at the same time I'd put this instance in a folder in my mind, just in case one of you were to flip Scum/Town, for the sake of looking into associative tells.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly believe she's Town, and that the timing of it is just coincidental. As for your last sentence, I don't know what to think of it.

Sky and Anna can both vouch for my timing. They are in my neighborhood and can verify I posted about you about 8-10ish minutes before you posted about Anna.

I do not remember that.

Do you know if she is online now, in light of my focused read of her?

[Wake1]

And yeah, I would leave my vote here for now.
VOTE: Anna
Three in a neighborhood, probably one scum, this one's the scummiest.

I have posted a focused read of Annadog40 for the purpose of data collection and analysis.

After that, you have posted your vote for her, and shared a reason for it.

Based on this, would you be willing to converse with me regarding my focused read of her?

Currently, I have her as leaning-Scum pending how she responds and behaves, even before she responds to the focused read. If she is online at the moment, and presumably aware of my read on her, I'd be curious to know if she is refraining from responding to it, taking her time responding to it, or planning to avoid it entirely.

[Wake1]

@Wake

Wake do you have any reads other than TSO and Annadog?

@Wake

Grayfox your lurking is really concerning do you have anything else to add? Like clearly you're paying attention but you still contribute next to nothing.

I will play at my own pace, and play as I wish. First I attempted to make a reads list five hours ago, but as I read through the 800 posts I felt overwhelmed. Instead, I feel like breaking it down, and providing focused reads of each player, in alphabetical order. Annadog was the first. Here is my template.

Pumpkin Orange - Nosferatu

Lava Red - Silverwolf

Plum Pie - RedFF

Rubber Ducky Yellow - GrayFoxxxx

Dragon Green - Boonskiies

Blue Diamond - Annadog40

Battleship Grey - Mahonster

Oak Brown - T S O

Pink - Texcat

Papaya Orange - Skybird

Red Wine - Ika

Magenta - Quaroath

Saffron - Salamence20

Teal - Ozgin

Shamrock Green - Kop

Gray Cloud - Lapsa

Brass - Fro99er

Rose - Shinobi

Vanilla - Spiffeh

Black Eel - Creede73

Boonskiies will be the next person I do a focused read on, and I will do so when I am in the mood. At the moment I feel like questioning some of the things being said now, because posts are flying by quickly and I feel some things need to be clarified or pursued further for the sake of knowing.

Do you think lurking in itself is indicative of being Scum?

[Wake1]

Wake-You earlier said I will now be a target for scum. You go from that to saying I could be scum with this role.

If I were scum with this role, I would in no way shape or form, share what I know with town.

I would keep this to myself, investigate the hoods, and share what I know with my scumbuddies in the ScumPT and in no way shape or form would I put it out in the thread. I disagree with you about being so secretive. More info. is good for town. It just depends on how you want to use it.

This is a town role Wake, but now I'm not so sure you are town.

IF you are Town, you are a possible target for Scum.
You

could

also be Scum, because your PR does not auto-confirm you. Not saying you are, but the possibility remains.
It would be the same thing if I hinted or declared I was a Doctor. Doctor can be Town or Scum. We cannot know. It does not confirm me as Town.
If you were Scum, and you had this role, it is not out of the realm of possibility that you would do this.
My memory is hazy, but you may recall a time when I was Scum, and released bits of information to try and appease the other players.
Scum can be tricky. They are the informed minority. We do not know what they know, or why they say what they say.
If you are Scum Investigator, you could set it up as being Town and imploring people to reason that a Scum Investigator couldn't reveal this, all the while doing so at Night. A clever Scum could hedge it that while. All I advise is caution, and to not rush to conclusions.
As Town, I do believe Town members should be secretive about what they are. Why do you think power and vanilla roles are not disclosed at start of game? Even revealing whether or not you are a Vanilla Townie is detrimental to Town, because if Scum believes it, they have a slightly better chance of hitting a Town PR if they knowingly avoid killing that claimed VT.

I do not assume your role makes you Town, and I would rather you

not

be sure I am Town, because if you are Town, you would not know what I am anyways, nor should you in general, especially when I do know you and I are neither Neighbor nor Mason.

[Wake1]

Believable claim by SilverWolf.

I am for outing of the neighborhood members, and I would like to get claims.

I am not in a neighborhood. That makes me, GrayFoxxxx, Silver (and like one more I think I missed) not in a neighborhood so far.

Assuming there are four Neighborhoods, I want you to clarify whether or not you think all the Neighbors therein should claim.

I do not believe they should, and I would rather it all remain latent Day 1, with the exception I have repeated throughout.

[Wake1]

Wake, your read format isn't economic. There's no point stating everything someone says, before asking them things about it, before then restating the questions after that. Cut out at least one section. In fact, cutting out two wouldn't be particularly detrimental.

I don't know if you're being earnest or subtly insulting. I do know outside of this game I see you as a nice person, and one I have no issue with, and enjoy playing with. At least on this end, I think we have a positive relationship outside of this game. If you are Town as I am, and our relationship is as I think it, if you are being subtly insulting I am left questioning it, because, unless I'm taking it wrong, it feels like you're implying my post is crap and I should scrap it. I do have my feelers really out there right now in this game, and I am ever-curious in trying to find out who is what this game, when it comes to alignment.

If you know me, you know that I struggle with ADHD, which does affect me completely, it being a hereditary neuro-biological disease of the brain.

In the process of creating a focused read, I start with the player's ISO. I then list the parts of it in italics that I find noteworthy, in an objective way [notice this detail; it is important], and then provide a link to each bit.

Then, while I have that to look on, I then get to the part where I subjectively share exactly what I think based on the objective part in italics.

After both those parts are done, I then finalize it by asking questions that I do believe are important, and if I think they matter, I will ask them.

Because I have nothing to hide, and I want players to understand how I'm coming to my reads, I don't delete any part of it, leaving it intact.

[Wake1]

I have never been a fan of Neighbourhoods and believe there is zero town utility in keeping them hidden.

It's not a position I share, but I neither dislike you nor Scumread you for it.

Do you think lurking in itself is indicative of being Scum?

If lurking gets to the point of never sharing opinion/participating in a fruitful discussion then yes. Grayfox made it clear that he was paying attention with post 970 but made no effort to share his thoughts. Others have stated that he's not playing his town meta and that he is usually a lot more helpful and invested. I have confirmed this for myself. So I would be fine if he was lynched today.

Being a Town player here, I've reconciled the fact that Town players play differently from others.

I don't think it would necessarily be Scum... but definitely anti-Town. There do exist Town players known for lurking. That much I know, and have experienced much to my annoyance.

If Grayfoxxxx is lurking, it does not auto-confirm him as Scum, but he should step up and start contributing. I have no qualms when it comes to a lurker being interrogated. As for his meta, I do not know. I don't discount meta; I have no time to invest in researching it. It is true Scum could go after someone not in their group... over lurking... and it would be convenient for them. I am trying to keep every and all possibilities in my mind.

Grayfox your lurking is really concerning do you have anything else to add? Like clearly you're paying attention but you still contribute next to nothing.

Not really, although Anna is pinging as scummy after reading the cases. I'm very baffled by her "making up a fake person, but they are really real".

Are you not more concerned about the part where she says she made up imaginary Scum posts?

It's all equal.

To address your other post, I am usually alot more active.
I'm taking this game as an opportunity to change my meta. I don't really like using meta, as someone could do what I'm doing, and purposefully alter it. The bottom line is I'm thinking more long term with my current posting rate. I am still observing interactions very closely, and invested in this game. If I'm alive long enough I'm sure I will be more forthcoming with my thoughts.. At this point I'm cautious to put any real wieght on any D1 reads, as we have no confirmed info. Now this post is going against my current strategy, but I see that I'm on the chopping block and I don't want to die. But to maintain tradition, I'm going to try to stay away from posting medium to large posts, such as this one.

You do not need to be afraid, if that is what is behind your reluctance to post in depth.

Just share what you think

and

feel. If you are Town, you have nothing to fear, so I ask you do your part.

When I asked you about imaginary Scum posts, and you replied with 'It's all equal,' I don't feel that is enough. What do you mean, please?

You wanting to change your meta I have no problem with. I fluctuate on that constantly, for various reasons.

What you should be doing is questioning people and looking for contradictions and omissions.

You can engage players and issues without being verbose.

What do you think about the reasons of those voting for you, and where would you place them when it comes to alignment?

[Wake1]

I have absolutely nothing to hide.

because I have nothing to hide.

Because I have nothing to hide.

It's actually really bothering me how many times you have said this.

I am alright with that.

[Wake1]

Wake you keep saying you are a member of town.........

Yes, I am, because I am.

Do you think members of Town should refrain from affirming that they are Town?

Somewhere, slightly, I feel a little more comfortable questioning you this game.

[Wake1]

I'm for the knowledge of all hoods Wake, not just the penthouse.

I don't agree with it, because all of that information

also

becomes Scum's.

Would you say the same thing about Mason PTs, or just Neighbors?

What I want to know is where you draw the line when it comes to releasing information when it comes to power roles and hidden threads.

Do you also believe, for the sake of knowledge, that more PRs should claim? You say you're for the knowledge. Please clarify.

Also, since one neighborhood is revealed and its neighbors, would you also argue that all the posts therein should be paraphrased and shared here?

I want to know exactly where you stand when it comes to this.

[Wake1]

I'm for the knowledge of all hoods Wake, not just the penthouse.

Also, tying back to my question, does this mean you'd see all the Neighbors claim?

Please clarify this once and for all if you'd see all the neighbors claim or not. Yes or no, Mahonster.

[Wake1]

Should I be lynched today, I do ask that the surviving Townies remember these associations when they are late in the game, and use it.

Ask exactly why they made their moves this way.

[Wake1]

Anyone here question the wagon on me?

I'd like those voting me to share

why

.

[Wake1]

VOTE: wake

VOTE: Wake

VOTE: wake

All of you, explain these please.

We are voting obvscum.

Except I am not Scum.

You say I am obvScum, so if it is obvious as you say it is, it should be easy for you to point out exactly why it's obvious [even though I am Town].

Let's see you guys [not just you 3] get to the nitty gritty work of providing real reasons for voting for me.

[Wake1]

Wake Wagon

Please provide your exact reasons for casting your vote.

Ika:

Salamence20:

Quaroath:

Spiffeh:

Kop:

Fro99er:

Grayfoxxxx:

[Wake1]

You seem to be very wearily of his neighbor god claim, which makes me think you are hiding something

Could you clarify this, because spelling and grammar.

Are you meaning to say I', very wary of his [whose?] Neighborhood claim?

Clarify exactly what you're saying, and I will respond to you directly.

[Wake1]

I have never seen anyone so defensive over a vote before

I am not defensive.

As Town, you're supposed to get players to elaborate in exacting detail why they're doing what they're doing.

Makes it easier for Townies in the later part of the game to look back and better utilize associative tells.

[Wake1]

Wake, Who is the scum on your wagon and why?

I really gotta go now.

Later

I don't know.

That's why I'm trying to get them to really explain their reasoning in detail.

[Wake1]

And I am aware that you left, came back, and left again while 7 are on my wagon.

Hm...

[Wake1]

Hrm....

...

[Wake1]

Grey could just be misguided Town, too.

But, oodles of towncred?

Fascinating.

[Wake1]

Wake, it's really time to move your vote. It is doing nothing.

Where are you trying to guide my vote to?

Help me out here, please.

[Wake1]

GrayFoxxxx is a magical wagon of justice, championed by the paladin of the people, TSO. Unfortunately, nefarious ne'er-do-wells have taken it upon themselves to avert the natural course of justice and hang a (probably) innocent man, Wake88! Submit

your

name to the cause to preserve our fragile kingdom from those who would seek to destroy by voting GrayFoxxxx now!

Hrm...

[Wake1]

Wake, it's really time to move your vote. It is doing nothing.

Why do you select me to ask this of, considering there's also Silverwolf, Boonskiies, and Annadog40?

Will you clarify for suggestion by including those three as well, or are you only asking me because you think, under these circumstances, you may find me persuadable-enough to vote for someone who may just be a weak Townie?

[Wake1]

Boonskiies has done nothing alignment-indicative, SilverWolf is probably town, or even if scum will be caught far before the end, while Anna is basically Gray but not as incriminating.

Why do you feel any of these are remotely worthy of your vote? Especially over Gray?

Why is Gray worthy of my vote, in your opinion?

[Wake1]

So you think outting neighbors is pro-town even though the game we were just in proves otherwise?

Do you agree with me that outing Neighbors is a bad move for Town to make?

[Wake1]

Wat

Engage, please.

[Wake1]

This game feels like I'm attempting to carry a huge load all by myself, while all around people attempt to trip me, or complain that I'm showing off by carrying out this backbreaking work.

If someone could attempt to step up and help, that would be great.

Trying to weigh the intent of this plea, as in reading in between the lines.

[Wake1]

Actually, Wake, why did you mention Boonskiies? He's not a viable wagon, and nobody has expressed interest in voting him.

He, like me, has cast a vote on someone at L-10.

You

did

tell me my was doing nothing, and should be moved.

[Wake1]

Indiscriminately voting any wagon which gets votes on it. Every major wagon in this game has had him on it, bar one which he couldn't vote because he had just praised the player it was on (SW). Lurking, which he has a history of doing as scum, being incompetent, which he isn't like as town, offering no reads or thoughts, probably instances of Beetlejuice too, and just being an all-round menace in general.

Could you link where he votes any wagon which gets votes on it? What qualifies as a wagon to you, and is that behavior necessarily Scummy?

Do you have proof that he specifically lurks as Scum? Or, for that matter, being incompetent as Scum?

Not really offering reads or thoughts could just be Grayfoxxxx. Is he really an all-round menace in general?

[Wake1]

Evidence on the matter of Grayfoxxxx's Scum meta would be most pertinent here.

[Wake1]

My last completed towngame, where Sala was scum, involved me and Varsoon losing at MyLo because two stubborn town players refused to change their minds. I really don't have the patience to cajole you into voting any more, Wake. Your comments about maintaining lines of communication begin to seem rather empty when I receive -no- feedback whatsoever from putting in my own time to try to make you see the light.

PEdit: That's better.

To me, just looking at your latest posts, it feels like you're wanting me to change my vote onto Grayfoxxxx. You know he jumped onto my wagon without much of a good reason, so it just feels like you're trying to capitalize on your perception of how I feel about it, thinking I would be easily swayed towards voting for him based on the wagon that is on me at the present moment.

When I asked you why I should move my vote to Grayfoxxxx, since I only had my vote on someone at L-10, I responded by asking you why you tell me my vote is doing nothing, while suggesting I move vote to someone else. Then I point out that, like me, Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 also have their singular votes on various players that are only at L-10.

Strangely, it seems you misunderstood that, and responded by asking me why those three are 'worthy' of my vote, when I never spoke of that at all. I'm asking you why you want me to move my vote, when you have not asked Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 to move theirs. Why ask me, and me first? When I see my wagon, and note that Grayfoxxxx was the last one to vote for me, I do wonder that even more. Lastly, on top of perhaps subtly flattering me about who's 'worthy' of me vote, you then say you don't have the patience to cajole me into voting any more, and cajoling itself means to persuade someone to do something by sustained coaxing or flattery.

And in the interim, you seem to be really trying to convince people to vote for Grayfoxxxx.

Hm...

...

[Wake1]

You posted 5 times in 1240 posts, or 49 pages. That's 1 post every 10 pages. I wouldn't call that active.

This is about Masquerade 178, right? I'm assuming he was Scum in that one.

So he posted five times in 1,240 posts, or 49 pages.

How does that relate here, considering he's posted 37 times in 1,091 posts, 44 pages?

If you are seeking to relate his behavior in this game with that one, they're clearly different.

I daresay it's evidence that lends itself to Grayfoxxxx. Do you have other relevant evidence?

[Wake1]

To me, just looking at your latest posts, it feels like you're wanting me to change my vote onto Grayfoxxxx.

Yes.

...

You know he jumped onto my wagon without much of a good reason, so it just feels like you're trying to capitalize on your perception of how I feel about it, thinking I would be easily swayed towards voting for him based on the wagon that is on me at the present moment.

Also yes.

You

are

trying to capitalize on your perception of how I may feel, so as to vote for Grayfoxxxx?

When I asked you why I should move my vote to Grayfoxxxx, since I only had my vote on someone at L-10, I responded by asking you why you tell me my vote is doing nothing, while suggesting I move vote to someone else. Then I point out that, like me, Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 also have their singular votes on various players that are only at L-10. Strangely, it seems you misunderstood that, and responded by asking me why those three are 'worthy' of my vote, when I never spoke of that at all.

I have misread things before. I may even misread them again in the future. It might be rare, but it does happen.

You misread.

...

I'm asking you why you want me to move my vote, when you have not asked Boonskiies, Ozgin, and Annadog40 to move theirs. Why ask me, and me first?

Because you're on and posting, and they are not?

You know they are not online?

And even if not, you can still ask them in-thread as well.

When I see my wagon, and note that Grayfoxxxx was the last one to vote for me, I do wonder that even more. Lastly, on top of perhaps subtly flattering me about who's 'worthy' of me vote, you then say you don't have the patience to cajole me into voting any more, and cajoling itself means to persuade someone to do something by sustained coaxing or flattery.

This is you reading far too much into word choice - I do not use my words that precisely. Even if I did, why would I openly tell you I was trying to flatter you into voting? It seems a pretty bizarre idea given that I just recently criticised your reads format.

Oh, you know a thing or two about how to play. Like I do.

You may not have openly told me you were trying to flatter me, but you did stress who's 'worthy' of my vote, and mentioned you were trying to cajole me.

Criticizing a simple format means nothing, and doesn't mean you're not able to try and persuade me through flattery or emotions when a crap wagon's on me.

And in the interim, you seem to be really trying to convince people to vote for Grayfoxxxx.

It's a curious quirk of my playstyle - I try to get people to vote for who I believe are scum.

You make it sound plain, what you are doing.

It is not. Therein lies the problem.

[Wake1]

I also think it's a relevant point that Gray has been under sustained pressure in this game, which merits him posting to defend himself, while this never materialised in Masquerade. For example, 8 of his posts have all came since I started pushing harder for his lynch an hour or so ago. By default, that will make him post more.

And is not not generally natural for most players?

Take me and wagon, for example. Have I not defended myself as well? To defend one's self, one posts more frequently, right?

[Wake1]

I have no idea why I am discussing my scumread of someone with them, since it's obviously a futile exercise, and I've somehow got drawn into it, which is naive of me.

You say you're posted more here than you did as scum in Masquerade.
I say you've had to because of sustained pressure here which wasn't present in Masquerade.

Or it's because he quit after five posts for apparently unreleased reasons...

[Wake1]

VOTE: Grayfoxxxx

Silverwolf, I urge you to be cautious with TSO.

Look closely. Look at how he's been navigating these last pages.

[Wake1]

VOTE: Grayfoxxxx

Silverwolf, I urge you to be cautious with TSO.

Look closely. Look at how he's been navigating these last pages.

Consider why I am saying this, in spite of him being on my wagon without much good reason.

Grayfoxxxx is one issue, but also consider TSO, and what he is doing.

[Wake1]

VOTE: Grayfoxxxx

Silverwolf, I urge you to be cautious with TSO.

Look closely. Look at how he's been navigating these last pages.

Consider why I am saying this, in spite of him being on my wagon without much good reason.

Grayfoxxxx is one issue, but also consider TSO, and what he is doing.

Do you think TSO is scum for his GrayFoxxxx push?

Reading the exchanges in the last ten pages, you would see there is much more to it than that.

[Wake1]

I don't know what Fox is like as scum, since he posted like three times in Masquerade, but I think I have a vague townread on him for the sheer badness of his play so far. He doesn't really seem interested in looking good, which is ...kinda town? But really not something anyone else should try emulating.

Hm...

Feels a tad contradictory, considering the latest developments.

[Wake1]

OK, I see TSO pushing a scumread he has, I see GrayFoxxxx defending himself from that push, I vote GrayFoxxxx, You object and tell me to be cautious of TSO.

My question is very simple. Are you scumreading TSO? Are you townreading Gray?

Otherwise, why do you object to my vote?

...

Presuming you are Town, shouldn't you be asking me

why

I am suspecting TSO?

Once you asked me if I thought TSO was Scum for the Grayfoxxxx push, and once you asked me if I was scumreading TSO.

Since your vote on Grayfoxxxx in 1110, you have not asked me why I am suspecting him. 'If,' and 'if,' but not 'why.'

Would you like to start by asking me why I am suspecting TSO?

[Wake1]

OK, I see TSO pushing a scumread he has, I see GrayFoxxxx defending himself from that push, I vote GrayFoxxxx, You object and tell me to be cautious of TSO.

My question is very simple. Are you scumreading TSO? Are you townreading Gray?

Otherwise, why do you object to my vote?

...

Presuming you are Town, shouldn't you be asking me

why

I am suspecting TSO?

Once you asked me if I thought TSO was Scum for the Grayfoxxxx push, and once you asked me if I was scumreading TSO.

Since your vote on Grayfoxxxx in 1110, you have not asked me why I am suspecting him. 'If,' and 'if,' but not 'why.'

Would you like to start by asking me why I am suspecting TSO?

It's rude to answer a question with another question.

Deflection?

Okay, seriously, why is there a wake wagon going? Is it because of the neighborhood thing?
Because I really didn't read into it so much and didn't think it was a really strong case.
/shrug

I'm down with an Ozgin wagon: I can easily see the parallels between his play in 180 and his play here.
VOTE: Ozgin

Distraction?

[Wake1]

I do know how to play the game, and I am not unfamiliar with how Scum can play.

It is odd, in my humble opinion, how during my pressing of TSO for answers regarding his behavior, Silverwolf comes in, does not ask me why I suspect him, but votes with TSO onto Grayfoxxxx, while seemingly 'not understanding' what it is I am seeing in TSO's behavior, trying to manipulate me with flattery and emotions onto a potentially convenient target. Knowing I will not be dissuaded, and not willing to be manipulated by TSO into voting for Grayfoxx in spite of what Grayfoxxxx was doing, I see TSO logging off for bed, Silverwolf asking me questions but not really asking me why I suspect TSO, Shinobi coming in about an Ozgin wagon, and Silverwolf nearly immediately saying that she, too, would love an Ozgin wagon.

Silverwolf does not answer my 1127. Shinobi shrugs off the idea of a Wake wagon, and votes Ozgin. Then Silverwolf immediately votes for Ozgin, and then does Grayfoxxxx. Nosferatu ignores my suggestion to engage, seemingly ignores that have happened, and proceeds to naked-vote Ozgin. Feels like Shinobi, like Silverwolf, is playing dumb about TSO's manipulative behavior, if 1137 is any indication.

[Wake1]

I do know how to play the game, and I am not unfamiliar with how Scum can play.

It is odd, in my humble opinion, how during my pressing of TSO for answers regarding his behavior, Silverwolf comes in, does not ask me why I suspect him, but votes with TSO onto Grayfoxxxx, while seemingly 'not understanding' what it is I am seeing in TSO's behavior, trying to manipulate me with flattery and emotions onto a potentially convenient target. Knowing I will not be dissuaded, and not willing to be manipulated by TSO into voting for Grayfoxx in spite of what Grayfoxxxx was doing, I see TSO logging off for bed, Silverwolf asking me questions but not really asking me why I suspect TSO, Shinobi coming in about an Ozgin wagon, and Silverwolf nearly immediately saying that she, too, would love an Ozgin wagon.

Silverwolf does not answer my 1127. Shinobi shrugs off the idea of a Wake wagon, and votes Ozgin. Then Silverwolf immediately votes for Ozgin, and then does Grayfoxxxx. Nosferatu ignores my suggestion to engage, seemingly ignores that have happened, and proceeds to naked-vote Ozgin. Feels like Shinobi, like Silverwolf, is playing dumb about TSO's manipulative behavior, if 1137 is any indication.

I don't really understand what you're saying about me here.

...

Now you're playing dumb.

I want to engage both you and Silverwolf over TSO's behavior regarding me and Grayfoxxxx.

If you think I'll let it go, and that you and Silverwolf can just play dumb and Wake'll go quiet, you are mistaken.

The more you avoid me and play dumb, should one of you three flip Scum this game, these exchanges will be damning for you and Silverwolf late game IF you two are also Scum on the same team.

Let's

talk

.

[Wake1]

You know I'm going to keep investigating this, so why try to avoid me?

[Wake1]

Alright gray, I looked into TSO's flipflop and I saw what you were talking about.
Doesn't look too spectacular to me: very unnatural read progression there.

TSO goes back onto my list but it's not enough to make me move off of Ozgin.

And how he tried to manipulate me into voting for Grayfoxxxx through flattery and emotions?

[Wake1]

I will be V/LA tomorrow.

Sunday I will revisit game events.

[Wake1]

V/LA extended to Tuesday, 8/18/15.

[Wake1]

Great.

Town's

being misled

looking to vote Grayfoxxxx.

Sounds like another one of those instances where Wake cautions against somethings and points to something else, but is unwisely ignored, and then they blunder.

Oh well. It happens. Just a game.

By all means, let's not look at the subtle forces manipulating players into voting Grayfoxxxx. Let's play stupid. Let's pretend we can't hear. Let's fuck up. We like that.

I'm unable to play until Tuesday. At this rate I doubt people will be able to help themselves not plow through recklessly. But that always happens Day 1, so why not strive for anything different? It's not like I know a thing or two about the game, or am cautious or willing to look at who's shifting the gamestate subtly. Nah, leave those questions to someone else.

Sorry. Don't have much patience for human, impatient idiocy. If you guys don't want to listen, and if you manage to fuck up Day 1, that'll be your luggage to deal with.

I told you the Ozgin push right when I was pressing TSO was a distraction.

I don't want this Town to keep fucking up, and I don't you guys to be competent and actually think things through or question

why

things are being done

when

they happen. If I can make it, I'll

try

to post tomorrow around 8pm. No promises.

Yeah, I'm not happy with how you've been playing. Hope we've got a Doc for Ozgin now. Thanks a lot for listening.

[Wake1]

Give me some time, please.

Just got home, and reading.

[Wake1]

Here, my wagon was rushed, and I cautioned players regarding it. *

This had been preceded by three votes in rapid succession [11 minutes].***

The wagon attempt was questioned again.*

During this, TSO questions Grayfoxxxx for his vote on me.* Just after, Silverwolf questions all three.*

In response to TSO's question, Grayfoxxxx says he's scumhunting and sheeping Sal.*. At this point I do feel he's Town, but is a bit lame, or dumb, in that he reasoning sucks, and I think Scum in general, their nature being to do things to not be suspected and lynched, wouldn't resort to saying stupid things like that. Does that make sense?

At this point it starts to get interesting, and here is

exactly

why.

In response to Grayfoxxxx, TSO says he wants to lynch him.* He then says voting Grayfoxxxx will earn you towncred*, and stresses his desire to see Grayfoxxxx dead.*

Now, what's remarkable about this, like now? Let's see.

Knowing the nature of the game, and not wanting potentially dumb-Town being lynched because, well, Town, I caution the group again.* Meaning he could really be Town, and Scum

will

attempt to capitalize.

This is the start of the real issue.

TSO suggests I should move my vote, because he says it's doing nothing.*

Curious, and hyper-alert to manipulation, I ask him where he wants me to move my vote.*

TSO gives an unconvincing reason for voting for Grayfoxxxx.* Not enthused.*

Knowing that I was one of four players who had placed votes on other players that were at L-10, I ask him why he selects me.* He and I both know how it looks with Grayfoxxxx's unwise vote on my unwise wagon. A seed of doubt regarding TSO'd intentions stepping in between us to convince me to unvote him and go for Grayfoxxxx... I don't feel it is coincidental.

Curiously, he responds by asking me why I thought any of those other three players were even remotely worthy of my vote.* He misread.

Because of this, I ask him why he thinks Grayfoxxxx is worthy of my vote.*

TSO responds by asking me why I mentioned Boonskiies, that he's not a viable wagon, and that no one has really expressed interest in voting him.* While he said this, I knew he had misunderstood me.

Rewind a few posts: TSO hints at wanting one or more people to step up and help.* I'm weighing it.*

TSO provides some reasons why Grayfoxxxx should be voted, but he opens himself up for interrogation.* The main detail of import was him saying Grayfoxxxx lurked as Scum, implying Grayfoxxxx is Scum for supposedly lurking this game.

I clarify things for TSO here.*

It gets better.

I pick at his reasoning.*

Grayfoxxxx responds to TSO's reasons on why he should be voted.*

TSO then says he doesn't have the patience to cajole me into voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

So, knowing I'm voting TSO, and that I have a 7W with Grayfoxxxx on it, TSO tries to persuade me to change my vote to Grayfoxxxx. He's suggested who is and isn't remotely worthy of my vote, and has been persuade me to do something with flattery [cajoling].

Asking for evidence of Grayfoxxxx being lurky as Scum.*

TSO offers evidence that, in the end, actually hurts his case against Grayfoxxxx.* He links a game where Scum-Grayfoxxxx posted five times and then replaced out [1240 posts, 49 pages], as evidence of him being Scum here. This game, at that point, Grayfoxxxx has posted 37 times [1091 posts, 44 pages].

Does anyone else not see this?

Made my concerns known.*

TSO reaffirms my suspicion that he was wanting to get me to unvote him and vote for Grayfoxxxx.* Also that he was trying to capitalize on my predicament to effect change in my vote. Says he misread, and that he targeted me to change my vote because I was online, though he just reaffirmed to me that he chose me because of my predicament, to get me to change my vote. Which means he didn't target me because I was online. He then questions me as to why he would openly tell me he was trying to flatter me, though he just admitted that he had tried to flatter me twice to get me to shift, which means he was trying to flatter me none-the-less.

Pointing it out in retro.*

Throughout these exchanges, Grayfoxxxx has pointed out TSO's wishy-washy case against him based on Scum meta.

Silverwolf jumps in, voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

TSO apparently back-pedals off the shit case against Grayfoxxxx, and instead redirects to why Gray is voting me.*

I caution Silverwolf.* Unsure if she is Town, I decide to check if she will play stupid, or be genuine. Having ushered her into the game, and knowing that she played more than some of my games as she learned, I have a better understanding of her play than other players, in general. That's the truth of it. I know that Silverwolf gets weary as Scum, and doesn't like having to play under false pretensions.

Again I caution her about TSO's atgtempt to manipulate me to strike at Gray, even though Gray is on my 8W for insufficient reasons.*

Guys, note these next exchanges.

Silverwolf asks me if TSO is Scum for his push on Grayfoxxxx.*

In effect I respond to her that if she read the last exchanges, she would see that TSO was trying to subvert my vote to Grayfoxxxx, through flattery, trying to capitalize on my predicament, which would benefit TSO and put another weight on Gray.*

Note this, guys.

She very simplistically decides to not actually read the exchanges or my posts, especially the ones where I actually posted to point out he was trying to manipulate me. Definitely over-simplifying it; Town Silverwolf would give a damn and not try to gloss something over. Something is wrong with that filter this game, which gives me reason to pause. She asks me if I'm scumreading TSO, townreading Gray, and why I objected to her vote. That is dancing around the question. She never once asked me

why

I was suspicious of TSO. No, that would draw attention.*

Basically, at this point a shade of doubt manifests, in that maybe, maybe, Silverwolf is running interference for TSO.

Shinobi timely pops in. Says Ozgin [who'd later be run up wrong and claim JoaT].*

Silverwolf is loving the idea. She wants to see that wagon going. Divert!*

I respond to her, brushing away the dodgy questions, and asking her exactly why she hasn't asked me why I'm suspecting TSO.*

She shuts down by saying I'm rude.* Doesn't want to answer, or really talk about it, which makes me think 'why?' I mean, she's presumably Town, so why wouldn't Town-Silverwolf actually engage? No, she'd be interested. She wouldn't be dodging. She wouldn't try to redirect the discussion. She wouldn't be playing obtuse. No, I point my finger at Silverwolf, and I keep my vote on TSO for now.

Shinobi plays dumb, and also tries to redirect the discussion elsewhere, to the bad Ozgin wagon.*

Both Silverwolf and Shinobi refuse to engage me over TSO's attempt to capitalize on my predicament, and his attempts to flatter me to change my vote. They're just ignoring it, and I think I might know why.

TSO
Silverwolf
Shinobi

I'm keeping these three in mind. Did not like that flow of exchanges one bit: it was coordinated.

Again I point this stuff out.*

Shinobi completely plays dumb in a devil-may-care kind of way.*

Shinobi and Silverwolf are avoiding engaging me directly and genuinely on the TSO/Grayfoxxxx issue.

TSO does not engage further. Proceeds to go about as if nothing happened.

I'm calling it on those three, tentatively.

[Wake1]

I'm around for a few hours, hit me up with questions if you want something specific.

Feedback on my latest post?

[Wake1]

I'm starting to think all the currently viable lynch targets are town.

Why not put some pressure on TSO?

[Wake1]

Hm.

Reading that, I don't think Town-TSO would say that, considering we haven't had a bad relationship on this site. Especially considering the last paragraph.

Honestly, I don't care if a player thinks he or she is competent or not. That has zero bearing on alignment. Competent Mafia do exist, don't they?

I am a competent player, but that in no way means I am Town. The same holds for everyone here. That is a fact.

What I see is a blatant attempt to try and discredit my points and push against you TSO, because, if you're Scum as I think, it's too close to home.

Therefore, knowing I am on your trail so early, you would have to nip it in the bud and do what you can to try and discredit me. Look how over-the-top you went.

Yeah, you're done this and done that, and you're going to say you're ignoring me and not going to get into it. You're trying far too hard, TSO.

If you are Scum as I am beginning to think, then I'm simply ahead of the curve, and you're left with no choice but to react like this, because it'll only get worse should we survive in consecutive Days.

Basically, you don't like my points and arguments made against you. Unlike my large post, you respond with a bit of bile. If you're Town, I don't see you behaving like that towards me.

I just don't. Why? Because you've never been like that to me when you were Town, like some of the common trolls on this forum. No, you've been an exception.

By sharing exactly what I honestly feel, you are reacting in an over-the-top manner, and negatively, and I think it's in an attempt to turn others against my inquiry of you.

What else do you think that would tell me?

You and Silverwolf both generalized my points, and aren't actually discussing them in context point-by-point. In your latest response, you didn't even touch on much of anything, not even about your weak attempt to link him to Masquerade to paint him as Scum. No, I think Grayfoxxxx is more along the lines of misguided Town. I think you tried taking advantage of the situation where 7 people including GF were on my wagon, and you did try to manipulate me into changing my vote to him.

All I have to do is stay vocal and wait for people to sober up. If you continue flailing, no matter how loud or ugly you get, that will not change my mind, and won't silence me either.

I do find it odd how I am pointing towards the intricacies regarding you three and your exchanges, and you rush to call you guys competent, that I shouldn't disagree, that thinking all three of them could be Scum is somehow wrong, and that I somehow lose face.

Why do you get ugly?

What's up with that?

Don't want to actually go there with me and actually answer my questions?

What I'm getting from this is that you really don't want to talk with me about this, and you're trying really, really hard to discredit me, and almost getting personal over it, which is something Town-TSO has never done with, ever. What the heck? Something's not right here. You talk a big game about Scumhunting, but god forbid you get hunted. No, you and the other two clam up and deflect and avoid and evade and generalize and bile. Yeah. That's weird. That doesn't sound like it comes from a Town-motivated player. No, that's just crap. And like the other guy said, I will not take the easy way, and I want you to actually knock it off, stop being like that, and actually talk with me honestly and respectfully like you're the town TSO I actually know and respect.

[Wake1]

Wake - I am about to show you a magical power of mine. I am a psychic - I can tell you something about yourself that I should have no way of knowing.

You do not proofread your posts.

Well I could've told you that.

Again I caution her about TSO's

atgtempt

to manipulate me to strike at Gray[/b]

So I take it you're going to continue not doing much but behaving like a snarky brat, without really taking any positions or actually hunting Scum.

If you're going to behave like a brat, and not contribute, then why are you even here? I don't see you taking any stances. You aren't taking risks.

[Wake1]

I am not giving you bile, I'm giving you my opinion that what you are doing this game is moronic. Doing that is, though I doubt you want to hear this, indicative of me being town. I'm not letting our relationship get in the way of the game. I can call your play bad and you bad this game without insulting you - it is a boundary I will cross to play at my maximum. As far as I am concerned, I have made my point succinctly - you went out with the intention to find someone manipulating you, you decided it was me, and ran with it.

I just said I didn't want to get back into this, but here I am. Short point: if I was scum, and this was a legitimate point, you know what I'd do? I'd break your case into segments and quotewall back at you and no-one would read halfway through it. Then everyone would dismiss it as town v town. It is the most efficient manner of breaking an attack.

That I am focused on getting a lynch I want, rather than being bogged down by suspicion, should again speak volumes about my alignment,

but I am getting tired of pointing to reasons why I am town when they never seem to get through to you.

You try to shrug it off as if you were'nt trying to manipulate me, but you admitted to it twice.

You also said that you aware of my predicament with that garbage wagon on me, and you tried to capitalize on how you thought I felt about it, and tried to use flattery on me to get me to change my vote from you to Grayfoxxxx.

Tell me right now you absolutely deny that. Give us all something to look back once I die and flip Town.

As for your last paragraph, it doesn't mean much. Meta isn't the be-all-end-all when it comes to alignment. How do we know you'd do that as Scum if you were Scum this game? We don't. That's just fact. What, if you're Scum you're not capable of changing things up and pointing at past Scum-play and saying that's how you would be as Scum? I know better than that, and I think some of these other people who aren't quite up to speed know this as well. We don't know what you are, so we can't assume your word is gospel. Just no.

[Wake1]

Wake-I took the time to respond to your post and even broke it up. If you want people to discuss things with you, don't brush that off. Tell me what you think of my points. 1431

Nos-you don't help with your constant little jabs at people when they have heated discussions. It does nothing to help the gamestate. You've made several immature comments that only serve to make thing worse. Stop, or be lynched. Seriously.

GM and Firebringer-Welcome!!

Firebringer-ISO GrayFoxxxx first would probably help you the most.

I'd love other opinions on things if you are town.

You told me to fuck off, so I'm not really interested in talking with you that much. An apology would be a good start. Would you want to work with me if I told you to fuck off? I doubt you would.

I will continue asking you pointed questions, though, and I will brush off questions from you that judge are distractions. Having been Scum in past game, I know how to ask questions like that.

Why? Because I think some of these people reading this stuff will eventually sober up as the body count rises.

[Wake1]

Also, Aero, I had PM'd you awhile back requesting 'Southern Biscuits and Gravy' Lay's chips. Be a pal.

[Wake1]

Wonderful. Here is the post that was in response to: 1308

I believe you said you don't have patience for our idiocy among other things. You implied we were all idiots who kept fucking up because we didn't listen to you. So yeah, my comment was appropriate.

Anyway, this game has 4 days left. I'm not going to get bogged down in this any further. If you want to talk. Let me know. Otherwise, Have a good night.

The problem is that it's true, and yeah, I do feel frustrated and emotional about it, when people just can't listen. Like their ears drop off. They get stupid. You spend half an hour writing exactly what you think hoping to get some actual quality feedback, and you get much of anything valuable from them, because, hey, they might be crappy. Yeah, it doesn't sound nice. I'm being honest.

How many games have I been in?

How many times has Town Wake cautioned the rest to not do something, but they don't listen, and they do it anyways, and it backfires all to hell in their faces? It gets old. Different faces, same stuff. "Hey, Ozgin push is a distraction from the real deal." "Oh, Ozgin run up claimed JoaT." "Thank you very much. I love being shot in the foot. I'll have another."

And you, Silverwolf, I don't feel you're Town. You really over-simplified and tried to gloss over my slight push on TSO. It's like you didn't even read anything. I'm the one with ADHD, but you and others aren't paying attention. It's frustrating! Pay attention. Please. Read the actual exchanges, and actually respond to and about them. "Oh, Wake thinks TSO is suspicious because he voted Grayfoxxxx." NO. Read. I

know

Town-Silverwolf would actually care to get into it and discuss the issue, instead of finding reasons to either avoid or simplify it, while distracting peoples' attention elsewhere.

Is this somewhat of a vent? Yeah. That's just how I honestly feel. Make me wonder I would want to spend hours here tonight, when I could be doing something else.

[Wake1]

Based on this page alone, Wake is Town.

Easy to say, but do you mean it?

Yeah, I've got my feelers out this game.

Do you have much experience with Scum TSO?

[Wake1]

Wake - I am about to show you a magical power of mine. I am a psychic - I can tell you something about yourself that I should have no way of knowing.

You do not proofread your posts.

Well I could've told you that.

Again I caution her about TSO's

atgtempt

to manipulate me to strike at Gray[/b]

So I take it you're going to continue not doing much but behaving like a snarky brat, without really taking any positions or actually hunting Scum.

If you're going to behave like a brat, and not contribute, then why are you even here? I don't see you taking any stances. You aren't taking risks.

sigh

I am taking a stance, I'm voting gray right now. Maybe if you weren't so obsessed with TSO, you'd have noticed. Grayfox is a good lynch for today and it should be evident that no one really wants to join a TSO wagon, as no one except you is still on TSO. Maybe he would be a good lynch for day 2 or 3, but not today. You are still pushing on this, and when an alternative wagon is given to you, you ignore it and keep trying to preach on the little "manipulative" things that TSO is posting.

And you have also ignored questions, under the guise of "you told me to fuck off so I don't want to talk to you without an apology". It's really hypocritical, in fact, when you called all of us idiots. And you just called me a snarky brat just now. You're being arrogant right now and it pisses me off when you get all shitty because no one wants to listen to your repetitive claims of TSO manipulating you.

I want to know why you don't want to vote grayfox, who is a better lynch at the moment. He's voted on anyone, simply because they were being wagoned at the time. He also claimed VT, so if he is in fact town as he claims, no power roles are lost. The probability of you convincing the entire town into voting TSO is very little as of today, and I doubt it will happen until at least day three. He was also really lurky early game and claimed after nothing at all.

So does it still look like I'm not taking a stance? Do I seem like a snarky brat? How'd you even come to the conclusion that I wasn't taking a stance? Since TSO is so obviously scummy to you, just wait, he'll be a lynch target tomorrow or the next day. By relentlessly pointing out the tiniest little thing about everything TSO says, you're just distracting from the main lynch targets of today and destroying the unity of the town. I'm not saying you should be sheeping the biggest wagon here, but it's a sign that you should drop it when you are literally the only one voting on TSO, and its been that way for a while.

It would be nice if you answered at least this. Nevermind an apology, which I can tell I won't be getting out of you.

@SW- I'm not jabbing at anyone else here, nor do I have recollection of doing so often.

I do not go with the flow.

If I go with the flow, I

am

Scum.

My job is to make the game a challenge, to get you guys to talk.

All of the stuff being said gets reread each Day.

What's said, especially early on, is important. Associative tells are what's used to bind and entrap Scum late-game. Can't really get those associative tells if you go with the flow early in the game.

As for unity, fuck that. If I were Scum be fucking screaming for it, because then you're all united and easily fucking manipulated. Unity my ass: you're new to this game I bet. You didn't know that I'd be preaching for unity if I were Scum. There's not much you do know about who you're playing with. I want people talking and showing their fucking stances and not playing so damned safe or chickenshit. Scum don't like taking risks when it comes to conversation because it typically comes back to get them if Town is prudent.

[Wake1]

I'll also refrain from making filler comments to during an indepth discussions if it bothers you that much. Truth be told I have not read your earlier wall in its entirety, @Wake, so I will do that now, to understand why you're pushing so hard on TSO for seemingly nothing. I typed that up in a sort of rage, so it does not take your entire case on TSO into consideration, so I apologize in advance for that.

You know what? Read the fucking exchanges.

Start at the beginning and read the string of posts.

This means read when I got 7 votes, then see how TSO comes in and how he

moves

.

ZONE OUT what people SAY.

Pay attention

to what they

do

.

[Wake1]

*Cooling off.

[Wake1]

Not all Scum are the same. Some try to divide the Town, some to unify it. They all want to manipulate the Town. Whether by dividing them up or consolidating it all, the strategies are only a means to the end, which is the subversion and destruction of Town. Some Scum do want Town united and working together if the players are wrong, being misled, and not really taking risks or themselves having to takes risks by going against the flow. Scum might just like the flow if they're the ones having some control over it.

I don't think TSO will be lynched today. But, I'm not going to vote for someone if I think that person is Town. You do get mad when I don't automatically assume you're Town. As to who I should vote for, I believe TSO is the right choice. You guys don't think it, but I'm being honest with what I am seeing this game. Why should I deviate from the person I think is Scum for someone who is probably a Townie getting railroaded? Abandon your position for the sake of your convenience, when your alignment is not known? I have, in the past, been manipulated by Scum to change my vote from a player I really suspected, to someone else as a 'compromise,' only to then be hackled by those same Scum in the next Day. I didn't forget that, so I really have to think about it.

[Wake1]

VOTE: Unvote

So yeah what's up GM?

I'm def Town but sitting Scum in your reads list. Say what?

[Wake1]

But I don't think that exchange makes Shinobi and SW scum still.

Silverwolf did come in right when I was really starting to press TSO. He went offline while she asked me those questions, and honestly, I do feel like she was trying to distract me off of him. When I catch a scent, I focus on it. Whatever I say regarding my thoughts on the game, I'm not trying to anger people. I get really frustrated. Really frustrated. With all the things going on in my life I am surprised I found time to actually dig deep into this game.

People, throughout my time on this site, tell me I need to engage. Take stances. Share what I think. Don't play safe. I am making that effort here. What I need to keep trying to do is not let my frustration take over me. It is not easy, and it seems only Mafia is what can actually get me frustrated enough to say things out of character. That said, I'm also laying a trap to catch Scum when they deliberately try to frustrate me in the future, because they inevitably will.

Shinobi I suspect to a lesser extent than SW, and SW to a lesser extent than TSO. I want to see him lynched, to get that info. I understand that resistance to a Scum wagon Day 1 is far more intense than one on a Town wagon, because unlike that Townie, the Scum member being wagoned has got teammates. The resistance to the TSO wagon is pretty high, and people don't seem to be willing to pressure him, unlike me. Shinobi wouldn't even broach the issue I brought up. I feel Wolfie was trying to downplay it and distract me. TSO responded negatively and clammed up. Now either I'm really wrong, or maybe, just maybe, I could actually be on to something Day 1, and Scum needs to quash that and discredit me as much as they can in order to help themselves.

What I'm looking for are fellow Townies that are willing to at least understand what I'm saying, actually weigh my points, and go over it with me. That way we can better understand each others' alignments, too. I'm willing to go against the grain and press people to get info out of them; instigate discussion and scumhunting.

One of the things that does frustrate me is that there have been a lot of anti-Town players in this game, whether they're immature, unwilling to contribute, or are just being dicks. I want players to really get into it with me, while being an adult. I'd be willing to answer Silverwolf's questions, but I'd be demanding that she go through all of my points intensely, and seriously. I know Wolfie better than you do, and I say that with respect. I brought her into this world of Mafia, along with quite a few others. Though other things have taken up space in my mind, like nursing school, I still have latent ideas of how Town Wolfie played. I'm forced to tread that difficult balance where I question Wolfie because I don't have a very strong feeling she is Town this game, while being respectful and not trying to get her to blow up and quit. One of her weaknesses regardless of alignment is that she can get very frustrated and threaten to quit. I do like her, but I don't think she really likes me back that much, and some of it is my fault to a degree, because I don't have a good control of my frustration. I can be a mean Doctor-House-acid-tongue-egotistical-arrogant-overthinking-frustrated-raging-bitch when mad. I don't know. I shouldn't have said some of the things I said so far. I get pissed. I ramble. I get mad. I hate when people treat my posts and thoughts as if they're garbage. I want to be taken seriously. I want to be seriously tested and challenged, but honestly, like a really intense but good ideological discussion. I am cautious, and I am always trying to get the other players to not be reckless, because this isn't my first rodeo here. I've had quite a few. Some of the time I'm pretty right, and I've learned quite a bit since first starting here, I'd say.

I just feel Grayfoxxxx is an easy Town target for a competent Scum-TSO, who would try to get me to vote for him.

[Wake1]

I want to make a reads list but I feel overwhelmed.

Reading over 1600 posts and digesting it takes hours.

I need some of those hours for school, which is coming up really quickly, like Sept. 7th quickly.

Will try to skim through. Not happy with the methods I've tried to use, like the spoilered updates or the in-depth reads. Time and energy make it impossible to do this for 20 other people. Maybe I should just drop trying to make a structure for my play and just go amorphous.

[Wake1]

The toxicity is tearing our game apart.

Eh, maybe we should strive for unity. Neh, maybe at least civility?

Scum-Me would be asking for peace in the valley. unity, high fertilization rates, bountiful crops, and plenty of firewood to keep all the children warm at night.

I just want to tear into things, like a damned candy-coated tootsie-pop. Get all up in that bitch. I love trying to unravel things. It's

so

much fun.

But yeah, some of the stuff being said is toxic. Ika's game-play is an example. It's not impossible to be nice and contribute seriously. Especially if others do.

[Wake1]

1)

Wake, you seem to be purposefully antagonistic this game.

2)

I don't understand what you are trying to do.

3)

I stated earlier that I was willing to vote Grayfox but at the time he was getting close to lynch. I see from the latest VC that is no longer the case.

VOTE: Grayfox

1)

Could you explain to me why you said that?

2)

I'm Scum-hunting. Can't do that well if you're playing safe and too afraid to take a stance.

3)

Why are you voting for him?

4)

What do you think of TSO quoting Masquerade to try and use against him?

[Wake1]

But I don't think that exchange makes Shinobi and SW scum still.

I'm not saying it automatically makes them Scum. I'm saying I suspect them a bit more than other players because of it.

[Wake1]

We should look at more of the players who just aren't pulling their weight.

I would rather we pressure TSO and maybe even lynch him. That would yield so much data.

For the sake of practicality, instead of no-lynching I'd rather we lynch someone who just isn't playing. If they're not playing, then, like, why are they even here? Just go. Get out.

If you don't want to play, or just gonna be lazy, have the self-respect and maturity—and consideration—to replace out. I've replaced out before when I knew I couldn't hack it. You won't ge me mad doing that. Not replacing out while not being able to play

will

.

[Wake1]

I'm looking at texcat.

Been here since gamestart.

23 posts. 1684 game posts.

May we pressure her, please?

[Wake1]

Regardless of her alignment, Silverwolf has been contributing.

Her being an object of suspicion doesn't mean I'll lap up anything negative said about her, especially if they're untrue.

[Wake1]

Texcat

———•

Where exactly do you stand on TSO's alignment?

———•

Where exactly do you stand on Silverwolf's alignment?

———•

Where exactly do you stand on Shinobi's alignment?

———•

Why have you contributed so little?

———•

TSO's Masquerade link to try and paint GF as Scum. What do you think of it?

———•

Why

did you switch to Ozgin?* You never explained why, and then you quickly unvoted 20 posts later.

———•

Salamence is no longer here. Where are you in this game? Where do you stand? Anything you want to share?

———•

Which three players do you feel most are trying to avoid suspicion?

[Wake1]

she's a

hardcore lurker.

up to par with grands like Ika

and Boonskies

Boon

and Kop have been

hardcore lurkers

, and it seems like there's scum in one of those two.

I don't recall Town-Boonskiies being a lurker in my Freshwater Frenzy LN, with 353 posts.

[Wake1]

———•

Why

did you switch to Ozgin?* You never explained why, and then you quickly unvoted 20 posts later.

I hate this question. Of course Tex unvoted quickly. Ozgin claimed JOAT 8 posts later.

This is one of those questions scum asks that's meant to throw suspicion on Tex unfairly toward her. You are detailed enough to know she unvoted 20 posts later, yet aren't detailed enough to see Ozgin's claim in there???

I was only looking at her ISO.

[Wake1]

———•

Why have you contributed so little?

This question as well.

It's well known Tex is a low post count player, and has already been stated so in thread.

Some of these questions are just meant to add suspicion to Tex unfairly.

I want her to engage.

Why not let her speak for herself?

[Wake1]

Why not let her speak for herself?

Why does this question always get asked? This is like the 10th time this game or something.

I'm letting her speak for herself, I didn't answer for her. I didn't answer WHY she voted Ozgin, I didn't answer WHY she's contributing so little. I'm stating facts that your questions are seemingly unfairly throwing suspicion on her.

She's free to answer any and every question you've asked.

I ask those questions because I want to see how she reacts to them.

You stepping in before she has the chance to reply subtly changes how she would of replied had you not stepped in in the first place.

Would have rather you waited until she answered, then you make your feelings known clearly.

[Wake1]

Would have rather you waited until she answered, then you make your feelings known clearly.

This is ridiculous. So you are putting restrictions on what I can talk about? I saw activity of yours that I deemed scummy looking, and I called it out. We're 3 days from deadline and you want me to wait who knows how long for a low activity player to come in and answer your questions? Ok...

It was like Spiffeh saying I needed to hold off on having an opinion on Shinobi until he told us how Shinobi scum slipped (which he still hasn't).

You're free to post when you want. I am telling you it would have been better if you had waited. That is all.

[Wake1]

I don't recall Town-Boonskiies being a lurker in my Freshwater Frenzy LN, with 353 posts.

Now see, this is a good find. But I need to ask...how many players were in that game, and how many posts did Boon have on D1?

21, like this one. Don't know how much he posted Day 1 there, but we can check.

[Wake1]

Start here, work backwards. *

11 times in two pages as of page 66.

26 times in thirteen pages as of page 55.

[Wake1]

Huh.

Are you guys allowed to search user posts in this site, like under 'lurk' and 'meta' simultaneously?

Yeah huh. Huh.

[Wake1]

VOTE: Boonskiies

[Wake1]

Oh, ok.

So he posted 91 times during Day 1?

...

We have something to work with.

[Wake1]

Ah, so that game already ended, so I can stop being subtle about it and the search terms stuff.

Seriously...I have 340 posts! What's the scum meta you guys say I always have? I lurk out when I'm scum. HAVE I LURKED AT ALL HERE?!?

This was what I was trying to point to.

[Wake1]

He naked-voted GF, and hasn't moved it...

[Wake1]

that was a really shit jump onto boon

Don't forget to say why.

[Wake1]

I was fairly sure you were incredibly deluded town up until now, but that vote literally goes against all the morals you're preaching about easy lynches. It makes no sense with your mindset. Boon has done nothing. That's null. He admits it himself. Meanwhile, when I press Gray, you call me scum rather than address the wagon-hopping which is a core tenet of my scumread on him. Even after I directly linked it and explained, you returned to the meta argument which I'd dropped because ...discredit time?

Can you explain why specifically you are voting Boon, hmm?

Or, you could read 1688-1719.

Here, let me say this slower.

Boonskiies is lurking this Day 1. In Freshwater Frenzy Day 1 he made 91 posts and was Town.

And read his quote as of two days ago.

Seriously...I have 340 posts! What's the scum meta you guys say I always have? I lurk out when I'm scum. HAVE I LURKED AT ALL HERE?!?

Way to avoid discussing his latest Scum-meta, man.

[Wake1]

Boonskiies' meta is the main reason I Scumread him, followed by his awful vote-park on Grayfoxxxx with 0% reason.

[Wake1]

Wake I want to know how SW's role could possibly be aligned with scum. And if it was, why would she share it with us?

I base my opinions on how Scum can behave based on my experiences having been Scum in the past.

If I were Scum, and I had that unique role, I would definitely claim it out loud but make it look like I was provoked into it.

Why? Because there'd be players like you who'd question why someone who's Scum could possibly do that.

Since there can indeed exist Scum Doctors and Jailkeepers and Watchers et al, Scum Investigator is no exception.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that this unique role is the same as Town Mason and Innocent Child, in which it can't be anything other than Town when it comes to the current Normal Guidelines of mafiascum.net.

[Wake1]

Wake I want to know how SW's role could possibly be aligned with scum. And if it was, why would she share it with us?

I base my opinions on how Scum can behave based on my experiences having been Scum in the past.

If I were Scum, and I had that unique role, I would definitely claim it out loud but make it look like I was provoked into it.

Why? Because there'd be players like you who'd question why someone who's Scum could possibly do that.

Since there can indeed exist Scum Doctors and Jailkeepers and Watchers et al, Scum Investigator is no exception.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that this unique role is the same as Town Mason and Innocent Child, in which it can't be anything other than Town when it comes to the current Normal Guidelines of mafiascum.net.

I'm tired of your stupid conspiracy theories calling me scum all game. First, because I happen to get online after TSO/GrayFoxxxx/You were arguing and discussed an Ozgin wagon which just so happened to be someone I was voting way before this happened, suddenly you think TSO, Shinobi, and I are all scum together.

I told you it was Town Neighborhood Inspector. That's exactly how it is written on my role PM. I would never, ever out this role if I were scum with no pressure and no reason to do so. I would much rather keep this to myself if I were to be scum. I even explained why I was outing it when I did it. Did you ISO me and look at that or read it when I said it? Do you remember when Skybird could visit the neighborhoods in your offsite game but not post in them? That was a town role so why is it so hard for you to believe that this is?

Why are you so determined to call me scum that you are twisting evidence to suit your scumread and if you really think I'm scum why are you voting for a lurker like Boon rather than me, one of the three you think are scum together?

I'm also trying to gauge how Scum-You would react; this includes your reaction when I point out Boons' Scum-meta here.

IF

you are Scum, you won't like being called Scum. I had an inkling, after naming you three, you may try to find a griphold on it when I then point out the legitimate points on boonskiies. The common "oh, you fos'd us, so why you looking at that person" play. I've seen it before, and I'll see it again.

And, as you know, if you're Scum you're not going to be 100% honest. What it boils down to is you getting pissed because I don't assume you're confirmed Town. What if your role PM said 'Mafia Neighborhood Inspector'? How do I know for sure one way or the other?

If we have four Neighborhoods and one of those three bars access from looking in, maybe it'd make sense and be kinda neat and balanced to also have a Scum role that can peer into various Neighborhoods, but not be able to look into one of the four.

[Wake1]

If I can prove that you have voted three times with no demonstrable reasoning other than made-up rubbish, I expect to see you dead within the day.

Why'd you post that garbage link from Masquerade about GF?

You do realize it proved the exact opposite of what you were using it for, right?

[Wake1]

'Cept you ignore what Boonskiies just said two days ago about how he lurks as Scum.

...and made it a point that he wasn't lurking in that game as Town.

You're not paying attention, are you? Or is it something else?

[Wake1]

Wake I want to know how SW's role could possibly be aligned with scum. And if it was, why would she share it with us?

I base my opinions on how Scum can behave based on my experiences having been Scum in the past.

If I were Scum, and I had that unique role, I would definitely claim it out loud but make it look like I was provoked into it.

Why? Because there'd be players like you who'd question why someone who's Scum could possibly do that.

Since there can indeed exist Scum Doctors and Jailkeepers and Watchers et al, Scum Investigator is no exception.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that this unique role is the same as Town Mason and Innocent Child, in which it can't be anything other than Town when it comes to the current Normal Guidelines of mafiascum.net.

I'm tired of your stupid conspiracy theories calling me scum all game. First, because I happen to get online after TSO/GrayFoxxxx/You were arguing and discussed an Ozgin wagon which just so happened to be someone I was voting way before this happened, suddenly you think TSO, Shinobi, and I are all scum together.

I told you it was Town Neighborhood Inspector. That's exactly how it is written on my role PM. I would never, ever out this role if I were scum with no pressure and no reason to do so. I would much rather keep this to myself if I were to be scum. I even explained why I was outing it when I did it. Did you ISO me and look at that or read it when I said it? Do you remember when Skybird could visit the neighborhoods in your offsite game but not post in them? That was a town role so why is it so hard for you to believe that this is?

Why are you so determined to call me scum that you are twisting evidence to suit your scumread and if you really think I'm scum why are you voting for a lurker like Boon rather than me, one of the three you think are scum together?

I'm also trying to gauge how Scum-You would react; this includes your reaction when I point out Boons' Scum-meta here.

IF

you are Scum, you won't like being called Scum. I had an inkling, after naming you three, you may try to find a griphold on it when I then point out the legitimate points on boonskiies. The common "oh, you fos'd us, so why you looking at that person" play. I've seen it before, and I'll see it again.

And, as you know, if you're Scum you're not going to be 100% honest. What it boils down to is you getting pissed because I don't assume you're confirmed Town. What if your role PM said 'Mafia Neighborhood Inspector'? How do I know for sure one way or the other?

If we have four Neighborhoods and one of those three bars access from looking in, maybe it'd make sense and be kinda neat and balanced to also have a Scum role that can peer into various Neighborhoods, but not be able to look into one of the four.

Another example of you twisting evidence to fit a scumread because you are bound and determined to see me as scum. Basically, EVERY THING I do in this game to YOU is something I'd do as scum and you can't see it ANY other way.

I'm done talking to you or trying to work with you. I give up. Vote for me and try to get me lynched then.

The funny part is that you're not differentiating things.

I'm pointing out the possibilities, which contradict your statements.

You take that as me saying you are Scummy. I tell you I don't automatically assume you are Town.

You are flailing, and I don't appreciate your behavior if you're Town.

[Wake1]

Let me clarify this.

You quoted Boonskiies saying he lurks as scum.
I just gave you meta where he lurked as town.
You do not have a response to this so far.

I am not bandying words with you - provide a response to this or remove your vote.

And you are deliberately ignoring what he just said and I quoted on 8/16/2015.

I will not remove my vote unless I want to. You have nothing to force me to do anything.

[Wake1]

You're not paying attention, are you? Or is it something else?

Why are these little addendums constantly added to your posts? What specifically are you trying to imply here? What master plan have I set in motion by defending someone who is not playing and is an easy mislynch? Someone who my scumteam mislynched in the original Delicious Mafia?

Say what you mean, but please, stop implying that everything I do is all part of my grand plan to manipulate everyone.

I think you're suspicious, and feel more than 50% that you're probably Scum. No need to keep playing dumb and dancing around. What do you think I've been saying to you throughout this game?

If you're Scum I don't know exactly what your plans because I'm not psychic, but I do think you're pretty suspicious and you react in almost a flailing and personal way when I push you. If you and Boonskiies were Scum in the first Delicious Mafia game, that doesn't make you two Scum in this one, and it also doesn't make you two Town this game either. We don't know.

You told me you were trying to manipulate me. Town has no good reason to manipulate people. You also said you were trying to capitalize on my situation. Do you or do you not deny that? Because I specifically asked you that earlier and you responded back affirming it, so stop ignoring my probing questions.

Speaking of ignoring, you

still

won't dare talk with me openly about that Masquerade link, and how you tried to use it to paint GF as Scum.

[Wake1]

why do I waste my time talking to you

ANSWER ME ABOUT THE MASQUERADE LINK.

Lurking, which he has a history of doing as scum

I'm not sure if I've ever finished any of the 2 or 3 scum games I was in before I had to site flake last year. I was scum with you in one of them, and I was pretty active before I quit.

You posted 5 times in 1240 posts, or 49 pages. That's 1 post every 10 pages. I wouldn't call that active.

You posted this to make GF look like he was lurking Scum. In reality, he was Scum that game, but only posted twice and quit.

Said he posted 5 times in 1240 posts, or 49 pages. You made it sound as if that makes him Scum this game, because he hadn't posted much according to you.

I pointed out that at the time you posted that, Grayfoxxxx posted 37 times in 1091 posts, or 44 pages.

That contradicts you, and makes you look suspicious.

You posted 5 times in 1240 posts, or 49 pages. That's 1 post every 10 pages. I wouldn't call that active.

This is about Masquerade 178, right? I'm assuming he was Scum in that one.

So he posted five times in 1,240 posts, or 49 pages.

How does that relate here, considering he's posted 37 times in 1,091 posts, 44 pages?

If you are seeking to relate his behavior in this game with that one, they're clearly different.

I daresay it's evidence that lends itself to Grayfoxxxx. Do you have other relevant evidence?

You backpedaled and tried to rationalize your push with your 1100.

Let's see you admit that your attempt to paint GF as Scum over this link was wrong. Maybe Town-You would admit such an error.

STOP ignoring me. You're NOT going to get away from me that easily.

[Wake1]

Let me clarify this.

You quoted Boonskiies saying he lurks as scum.
I just gave you meta where he lurked as town.
You do not have a response to this so far.

I am not bandying words with you - provide a response to this or remove your vote.

And you are deliberately ignoring what he just said and I quoted on 8/16/2015.

I will not remove my vote unless I want to. You have nothing to force me to do anything.

SEE, YOU'RE AVOIDING ME HERE, TOO.

ANSWER ME, TSO.

[Wake1]

VOTE: T S O

[Wake1]

Skybird, Spiffeh, firebringer, fro99er, Kop, let's put pressure on TSO.

[Wake1]

He's deliberately avoiding me.

Outright ignoring the valid points I have on him.

Just look! He won't talk about the issues I raise!

He still won't engage about the Masquerade link.

[Wake1]

Wake what is your point against TSO that he is not responding to?

I know the Masquerade thing but what point were you trying to make with that?

That he tried to use it to paint GF as Scum, but it actually hurt the very case TSO was trying to raise against GF.

It was faulty and sketchy, so I tore it apart. He won't broach the issue. He repeatedly ignores it.

[Wake1]

Bring it.

You've seen

nothing

.

[Wake1]

Wake, you can fuck off bringing our outside of game relationship into this. You are a fucking idiot this game. You accuse me of ignoring points when you sit there and ignore my Gray case? I drop meta and emphasise another aspect. You talk about meta. I further emphasise that aspect which makes him obvious scum. You continue talking about meta. Maybe if you had a fucking shred of integrity you'd notice how much you're ignoring, not how much I am.

You said that Gray's Scum-meta included being a lurker.

You then said while using that link of his Scum game that he had 5 posts in a game with over 1200 posts.

I pointed out that that is inconsistent, because he had 37 posts in a game with 1,000 posts. He posted way more than in the Scum-game of his you linked.

Every major wagon having him on it does not mean he is Scum. If he is incompetent, again it is the same. Same with offering no reads or thoughts, which you seem to have missed when it comes to other players who haven't posted or done much. Calling him an all-around menace in general is not evidence of anything.

Meta is something we can actually work with. You posited a link if his Scum game from Masquerade, but it was a counter-weight, because it did not add weight to the argument that this game he had to have been Scum, too.

I am consistent as hell, and am not stopping until you answer me thoroughly.

[Wake1]

You accuse me of ignoring points when you sit there and ignore my Gray case? I drop meta and emphasise another aspect.

HE IS FUCKING ASKING YOU TO ELABORATE ON YOUR CASE BECAUSE ALL IT IS, IS META YOU FUCKING CRY BABY. WHAT OTHER ASPECTS? I HAVE COUNTERED

EVERYTHING

YOU HAVE SAID ABOUT ME. YOU HAVE SPENT

ZERO

TIME DOING ANYTHING ELSE, OTHER THAN PUSHING MY WEAK ASS WAGON, AND WHINE AT WAKE.

He won't engage me.

The more he flails, the more he avoids, and the more he ignores, I will push him more.

It's the vice that gets tighter the more your struggle against it.

[Wake1]

My condolences to his future replacement.

Maybe that person will actually engage me honestly, and not dare react in a suspicious way.

Let's see.

[Wake1]

We wouldn't have gotten here if you had simply not ignored me.

Your apparent emotions have no impact on what your alignment may be.

[Wake1]

If you are Town, as I am, do. not. avoid. me.

Answer me honestly, and straightforwardly.

Show me you aren't trying to hide from me.

It's that simple. It's the negative reactions that guide my perceptions of your alignment.

[Wake1]

Yeah I'm ultimately fine with a Grayfox lynch I just think there are scummier players.

Seems like the consensus will be Gray though.

And should Grayfoxxxx flip Town I'll be gunning for TSO far harder than I ever have before, with good reason.

[Wake1]

I also want to mention gray had a low post count before he was pushed, it should be obvious that he has to post more in response, which fixes the meta argument.

No, it doesn't. TSO quoted one game of his where he was Scum. He only made five posts and then replaced out. There's no way that's enough to even use it as an effective meta-based Scumread of him here. We don't even know why he replaced out, and why he could only post five times. If there are other Scum games of his here that might change things, but trying to use those five posts from there, here, is lame.

@wake you haven't spoken about the problems I found in your conspiracy theory, wanna talk about it?

Please point them out again.

[Wake1]

The Gray Case

Votes:

I'm getting tired of repeating this point, but it's worth saying - Gray shamelessly votes anyone who has a chance of getting lynched.

Votes red here, finally justifies it over 1500 posts later here by saying it "wasn't serious". To anyone who thinks this is a legitimate response - it's not. It really, really is not. It is the Mafia equivalent of filling space with empty words. When Gray voted red, he was legitimately in danger of being speedlynched by Sala. He knew exactly what he was doing when he placed it. He wanted the day over as soon as possible - his actions blatantly contradict his words.

Votes me here, and gives his reason here. To paraphrase that reasoning: "I was sheeping SilverWolf". We never hear why he was sheeping SilverWolf, why he felt her reasoning was good, what he liked about it - nothing. He never gives any evidence to verify his claims.A more trusting person might believe him. I'm of the opinion that this was a lie. There's no way to conclusively prove this, but seeing that he's done the exact same thing five times, I find it incredibly hard to believe.

Votes Wake here, with reasoning here. "I was sheeping Sala" - yet again we see a bullshit excuse for his vote. We never hear WHY he was sheeping Sala, what part of Sala's case swayed him, nor anything whatsoever. Just that he was sheeping. It's lies. And the worst thing about it is that he constantly attempts to glaze over it like it's nothing.

Votes Ozgin here, we've been through this before. It's him voting anyone he can under the guise of sheeping. Although here we are told that it is no longer a sheep vote! That, for the first time, Gray has actually used his own brain to vote someone! But, as you may have guessed, we never find out what changed his mind. That would be a bridge too far. So, essentially, this is a carbon copy of his other bullshit votes.

Votes Anna here. As time moves on, Gray gets more and more nonchalant about his scummy behaviour. By now, he doesn't even have to pretend he's sheeping any more - he literally just puts the vote down and leaves. This isn't town, okay? This isn't bad townplay. This is arrogant scum who knows that he's not going to be punished for playing anti-town, so happily does it. He actually lacks so much respect for us, the town, as a cohesive unit, that he makes blatantly scum plays, without any justification, KNOWING that he won't be punished for it. It's literally the most disrespectful thing a scumfuck can do.

Claim:

Early in the game, under no pressure, Gray claimed VT. This is a terrible play, but that's not scummy in itself. The problem is the fact that he had no reason to do it as town. As town, claiming VT d1 makes scum more likely to hit a PR at night because they now know that you aren't one. As scum, on the other hand, it's an extremely advantageous play. It means that, if the game is multiball, you're less likely to be shot. It makes town PR's less willing to use their night action on you. And it allows you to complain that you shouldn't be lynched because you're just a VT. Has Gray ever offered an explanation for why he did it? Yes, but it's fucking terrible. Apparently, he claimed because he wanted to mix it up. Again, this is a blatant lie. "I wanted to mix it up" is a sentence which means nothing. The benefits of claiming VT as town are almost none. The benefits of claiming it as scum are extremely high. I'll let you decide which alignment is more likely to claim it so early with so little need.

Meta:

I want to preface this by saying that I am aware that both Gray and Wake will fixate on this and this alone. Speaking to everyone else: even without the inclusion of meta in this case, Gray's alignment is patently obvious. If you haven't read the two parts above, you really should.

I played on a scumteam with Gray briefly in a game that ended in January, the Masquerade (which I won!) Gray made 5 posts out of 1240, less than 0.5% of the total postcount, before replacing out. However, Gray did not come under any pressure that game, and did not once have to defend himself. In this game, Gray made 56 out of 1240, which is significantly more. However, Gray has endured significant pressure this game. I can't count how many times I alone have called him scum, not including people like Ozgin who are also doing the same. Because he has had to defend himself more, his postcount is naturally higher. 38 out of his 56 posts are responding to pressure on him by me or Ozgin, or arguing that his meta doesn't make him scum. If you remove those, then his postcount would be 18 out of 1240. It's higher than 5 out of 1240, but it's still incredibly low - less than 1.5% of the total postcount. It remains the postcount of a lurker. My argument is that Gray has not been able to lurk like he did as scum the last time because of the pressure on him forcing him to respond or be lynched.

General play:

I am not sure Gray has offered a single opinion of his own this game. He scumreads anyone who is being voted or who calls him scum. He townreads people who call him town. Getting in Gray's townreads is really as simple as this. If he is town, then this indicates an almost mind-boggling level of incompetence, an incredible mix of naivete and lack of paranoia fusing to create the worst town player ever. I don't buy that image. Too scummy to be scum is something that doesn't apply when the scumminess is as calculated as this is. Gray's scum.

Ohhhh boy. If he flips Town, I am

so

gunning for you while tearing this all apart.

I find it rather funny. You try to dump suspicion on him for voting on wagons while not providing much reasoning, but then you completely ignore how so many other players have done almost the same thing this game. In spite of your words here, I bet if I asked you about Boonskiies' naked vote on GF, with

no

content, you'd be absolutely fine with that. If Gray is Town, I'll essentially start beating the teeth in of your arguments, because everything would have been absolutely fucking wrong, and I can guarantee in this game you

will

get burnt over it. Same for those that would have gullibly fallen for your lies.

You target him for lurking, weak votes, and incompetence, but then you ignore players here like texcat, ika, boonskiies, and others.

His alignment is

not

obvious. Those who lap that up without critical thought are fooling themselves. If you are wrong, I will start to pressure you.

[Wake1]

Wake how will you feel about TSO if Gray flips scum?

Then he'll be Scum. However, we don't know yet if this is singleball or not.

I don't think he's Scum; I think he's weak Town being railroaded by experienced Scum.

[Wake1]

Do we just blame everyone else for being wrong if/when we lynch town?
Doesn't seem like a wise decision but okay.

When it comes to being so adamant and naive in the face of someone saying 'hey, wait a minute,' then yeah.

Ignorance and stubbornness, once it crosses the line, gets you burnt. There comes a time when

no more excuses

.

[Wake1]

Wake-get off your high horse.

I'm going to go check the votes on Gray.

Not a high horse.

Don't even try it.

Should he flip Town, you'll need to speak for yourself. Maybe you were too high on your own horse to even bother to listen.

[Wake1]

If you're online Grayfoxxxx, make sure you claim at L1.