NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[Fro99er]

Hey everyone!

I'm on some planes today...will catch up tonight

[Fro99er]

Time to catch up a bit.

in the mean time, what's happened so far?

[Fro99er]

Is that Lapsa FOS really grounds for a scumread? I don't see what's so scummy about it.

Even after he showed us where he

plagiarized

adapted it from?

Certainly not enough for a full-blown scum read, but I thought it was out of character enough to be suspicious.

Bah...I'm this far and

1) I'm sad Texie isn't my mason partner this time

but more importantly

2) Texie ILU but you've already used FOS twice when you didn't use it at all in our mason game. And this thing above with

plagiarize

really appears purposefully done to further enhance an agenda that Lapsa is scummy.

[Fro99er]

You sure you're not trying to steer the conversation?

No...ika's just pretty obvtown from his very first post. This is town ika.

Also,why do you keep worrying about ika quickhammering at L-1?

[Fro99er]

Shinobi is very obviously town too.

The relief in his opening post was real relief after how I made Refraction mafia a shit show with Shin as scum, and Shin's early push on Tex is spot on as well.

[Fro99er]

haha my bad ika

(Red, nos, gray, wake)

red and wake could be, but right now Ozgin is confscum for post 109.

VOTE: Ozgin

[Fro99er]

@Nosferatu - how much mafia experience do you have?

[Fro99er]

Confscum? That's very extreme. Explain why you're so sure of him being scum?

Go read 109 and tell me how it's not scummy.

1. The "are we out of RVS yet" is blah. What's the point in asking that (hint: there is no point). It's making conversation to make conversation, and playing dumb.

2. Why would Ozgin be worried about TSO at all if Ozgin was town? Only scum need to be worried.

3. Listing every possible date they are away from the computer is something I see scum do who are very careful about their activity level. They want it known in public well ahead of time when they are gone so they don't get criticized for low activity or lurking.

[Fro99er]

@Nosferatu - how much mafia experience do you have?

This is my first game on this site, so you won't find anything to use as a base for my meta.

I wasn't asking for meta purposes.

[Fro99er]

You are more scum for saying he's confscum than he is for that post. Also, he's telling us the dates he'll be gone ahead of time. That means if he lurks any other day, that'll be suspicious.

So I'm scum for calling someone hyper-aware of their own availability?

Ok...


(Also, did you question Lapsa when he called someone confscum in post 38?...no you didn't. In fact, you haven't even mentioned Lapsa all game...so why are you applying this confscum point selectively?)

[Fro99er]

You also didn't even address my points 1 and 2. Why did you ignore those two points and only choose to comment on the activity point?

[Fro99er]

So I can tell I can't take a single day off in this game. 13 pages in 48 hours. oof.

That's not what I said at all, and you know it.

I said he was hyper aware of his activity levels and made sure to say so in public in advance.

That's shit I do as scum so that people don't start scum reading me for being away.

He could just tell the mod he's V/LA as they come up, like most people do.

[Fro99er]

Ah shit. I misread you. My bad.

[Fro99er]

That doesn't alone say that he is confscum, if that was confscum, he'd be lynched right now. This is your opinion, not stated facts.

You know I'm not actually serious about confscum right. You should be able to tell from context I'm using it as just a saying in this case to say...hey I'm highly suspicious of him!

[Fro99er]

Listing the dates, away man, is that something you are going to try pin that on him? I'd rather someone say when they won't be on, rather than just slithering into the back ground

I would rather so too. My point isn't he'll be away.

My point is he listed it all out well in advance when most people just tell the mod right before they go on V/LA.

If Ozgin has done this before as town I'll feel better.

[Fro99er]

I have only participated once in a game with Ozgin, and I honestly don't remember him doing that in that game, he was town in that game. So it could be a case in point to what your making, but I wouldn't use that as a reason to pin something on him.

Right, it's not my only reason, and I plan on catching up further to see where my reads evolve. If he's done that as town before, I'll gladly strike that as a point against him. But that's where I'm at now until I catch up and as things change.

Also as of page 8 suspicious of:
Tex
Nos
SW or Wake (need to sort that)

[Fro99er]

Here's me doing the same thing from another game when I was scum...just being careful to list out every detail of my V/LA and throw in I even told the mod ahead of time to make it appear as if I wasn't just lurking in a short deadline game (hey, it worked):

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6954245

[Fro99er]

@Ozgin - I have played with TSO. No fear.

I don't feel bad, sometimes I project what I do onto others because even though not everyone plays the same, there are things I sometimes pick up on in my own play that I see others do. This is one of those.

Anyway, I'm only up to like page 8. Will catch up more at some point soon

[Fro99er]

I understand your concerns but that's not going to change them and I know at least for ika it is not alignment indicative which is what I care about. I wouldn't do that (just like you) but I'm not going to sit here and worry about ika doing so because I know that's him. I actually think it makes you a bit townie for worrying about it, but I'm not sure. That's why I said I noted it.

What I do see is ika playing like town ika here. There's certain things he says, does, and means that I can just pick up on. Call it intuition or whatever you will, but I'm pretty confident he's town here. If you think that makes me overconfident and/or naive, that's fine. But that's how I play when it comes to people I can read well.

[Fro99er]

And no, I'm not spinning it. Unless you think in trying to spin you as town for whatever reason.

[Fro99er]

And why do you keep saying I'm "hyper-aware" of my activity level? Like it's abnormal to know my birthday, birthday/grad party date, and the day I move into college?

Of course everyone is aware of their personal schedule. The hyper aware part comes from telling that to everyone ahead of time so they don't think you're lurking with no excuse.

It makes you come across (to me, I guess since that's what I do as scum) as concerned about people interpreting your activity level.

[Fro99er]

I also feel like saying that Aeronaut seems like the sort of guy who would play a straight enough game. He's not a crazy mod. It's likeliest that it's singleball, but it might be multiball. But I can nearly guarantee it won't be multiball + SK.

Where did this discussion stem from? (I'm still catching up)

Refraction mafia was multiball, so IDK. The best thing to do right now is just scumhunt. Flips and night actions will eventually produce evidence of single or multi ball.

[Fro99er]

2. Why would Ozgin be worried about TSO at all if Ozgin was town? Only scum need to be worried.

This is wrong. Town have plenty of reasons to be worried.

You're clearly misrepping. I didn't say town has no reason to be worried.

I said town should have no reason to be worried about you specifically.

And if that's also what you also meant, then why would town be worried about you?

[Fro99er]

My vote for Salamance doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

My FOS on Grayfoxx has increased. He seems to be making a lot of lame excuses for not scum-hunting. Observing? More tonight?

VOTE: Grayfoxx I think that's

L-3

.

Texie!

Talk to me.

I think gray is always an easy lynch and I'm not caught up enough to sort him yet.

What specifically are the posts that are scummy from him?

[Fro99er]

Wake...I don't think Anna is scum. Do I think she's being anti-town? Yes.

Sky and I are trying to get Anna to cooperate in our neighborhood, so hopefully we can get some solid reads from Anna.

[Fro99er]

Wake...I don't think Anna is scum. Do I think she's being anti-town? Yes.

Sky and I are trying to get Anna to cooperate in our neighborhood, so hopefully we can get some solid reads from Anna.

While I appreciate you sharing you game-view on Annadog40, the timing of it, eh, I don't know. In your own words, why is she being anti-town to you?

So it's you, Skybird, and Annadog in this supposed Neighborhood. I would rather you guys kept this a secret, because it helps Scum.

I don't understand what's wrong with my timing? I logged on, saw your comment, had just mere minutes before talked in the neighborhood PT about you to Sky and Anna, and also asked Anna a question.

Then I flipped to the game thread, saw your post, and decided to comment on it.

Yes, it's me, sky, and Anna. Why is me outing I'm the third member a bad thing? Why are you afraid of that? It was already well known that Anna and Sky were neighbors, so why is it so bad that people know I'm the third member?

Anna is being anti-town for reasons I would like to keep in the PT between myself, her, and Sky, so you'll just have to respect that.

[Fro99er]

NOWHERE did I speak on her behalf.

I said I THINK she is town. She is free to answer your questions all she wants.

I posted in our neighborhood thread at 4:19 and 4:21, you posted at 4:27. I'm sorry the timing seems strange to you, but it's when I was online.

I think in regards to your last paragraph, you can figure out what I'm doing if you put your mind to it.

[Fro99er]

It felt to me that right after my focused read of her you say you think she's Town.

However, being an honest and unafraid Townie who's willing to be flexible, it's also possible that you really are Town and opining that she's Town. Whether I should give you that benefit of the doubt I don't know, because I do not know you, and have never played with you before.

You have played with me before...but barely. I was the other head of Big the Cat in Baccano mafia.

On the philosophical matter of being Town, maybe it is better that I am willing to trust members here rather than distrust them, so as to form better communications with you guys. I could trust you on this, but at the same time I'd put this instance in a folder in my mind, just in case one of you were to flip Scum/Town, for the sake of looking into associative tells.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly believe she's Town, and that the timing of it is just coincidental. As for your last sentence, I don't know what to think of it.

Sky and Anna can both vouch for my timing. They are in my neighborhood and can verify I posted about you about 8-10ish minutes before you posted about Anna.

[Fro99er]

Wake - that's embarassing. Wrong game...it wasn't you. I feel like I've played iwth you before.

[Fro99er]

Do you know if she is online now, in light of my focused read of her?

No clue if she's online. She hasn't posted anywhere on this site since I posted my stuff in our neighborhood thread.

[Fro99er]

I have absolutely nothing to hide.

because I have nothing to hide.

Because I have nothing to hide.

It's actually really bothering me how many times you have said this.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Wake

[Fro99er]

We se m to have a lot of support for my Ozgin wagon that I wanted.

[Fro99er]

I see her as weird but not scummy. I have her as null. Do you see something in the hood I'm missing?

I've been asking her questions in the hood trying to figure out if she is scum or town. So far she is basically dodging all my questions. Frogger can verify that this is true.

This is true.

She's being very anti-town at best, and some of the questions she should not be dodging in the neighborhood.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Anna

I don't think she's town anymore. I've tried giving her the benefit of the doubt multiple times, but each time she keeps proving she's not doing what I thought she was and is just scum instead. Her responses in our PT are awful. Anna clearly doesn't want to leave any trail either, which is why she's being so difficult.

[Fro99er]

My scum read on Anna stems from the fact that her whole goal is survivalism because she is worried about being NK'd so she doesn't want to be too town read. She has stated this multiple times in the neighborhood thread.

Sky and I have tried explaining to her multiple times that scum needs to worry about survivalism, and as town you should be trying to draw the NK in many circumstances (but not all). I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that it was one of those circumstances where she shouldn't draw the NK, which is why I came to her "defense" (even though it wasn't really a defense, just my read on her).

However, after she started not cooperating about providing reads in our neighborhood thread or in the game thread, I started to wonder. Her insistence is she will NOT provide any reads until the end of the night phase because I have no idea why other than she says she doesn't want to get NK'd.

To me, it's more reading like she doesn't want to leave a trail now for town to follow, rather than her worrying about getting NK'd. She could easily help town out by providing some reads either in game, or at the very least in the neighborhood PT so that Skybird and I have something to go off, since we are townreading each other right now. But instead she just wants to be difficult and answer questions in ways that don't even make sense in terms of the game state, nor in terms of being pro-town, and avoiding giving any sort of reads at all (again, I really believe this is so she doesn't leave a trail...there's no town motivation in providing ZERO reads even if she were in one of the special circumstances as town to not want to get NK'd).

This is why I've flipped my read on her from anti-town to scum.

[Fro99er]

^so quaroth lays out a great argument on Ozgin (admittedly much better than the one I made, but it did use some of my point on his TSO reaction) and then you unvote him?

I'm inclined to want to move my vote back there. Between his meta, his awkward stances, and the points I made...I'm quite sure that dude is scum.

Anna or Ozgin lynches are good by me today. IMO both are scum.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Ozgin

Obvscum is obvscum

[Fro99er]

Yes, the green colouring was in fact necessary to convey that you are town.

This is a town reaction.

[Fro99er]

Lapsa, any reason for that vote?

no

VOTE: Lapsa

And before you ask for a reason, anyone, it's because of posts like 1373.

It's classic town Lapsa if you ask me.

[Fro99er]

Frog, so town lapsa is always like this?

Seems like it to me, yes.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Mahonster

[Fro99er]

@SW - I tend to non-entity Day 1. Habit I've never been able to break. This game makes it extra hard because I don't like trying to read through personal attacks and bullshit.

Can you provide town examples of this?

Also, while I'm low post count - I was the person that pushed the now currently largest wagon to where it is

- so I'm a nonentity because I'm not posting insane post counts? It's not like all my posts have been prod dodges. This is really weird logic that doesn't seem normal for you.

This is pretty scummy. Especially the bolded.

[Fro99er]

Actually, VOTE: quaroath

Mahonster seems scummy too, but quaroath more so.

[Fro99er]

Frogger you are confusing the town with your votes

How?

[Fro99er]

Why?
Furthermore, didn't you agree with some on Q's reasoning earlier? What changed and why is he so scummy now?

Yes, I did. It was an argument on Ozgin who has now claimed JOAT, so both Q and I were wrong.

Did you not read 1385? He clearly is like "oh yes, I'm low post count, BUT ITS OK BECAUSE I DID THE ORIGINAL PUSH". Scum likes to point out how they did something original. Usually, when someone makes an original point as town, they just make the point. He's bragging about pushing the Grayfoxx wagon, and I believe grayfoxx is town.

He's sitting here pushing mislynch wagons and pointing out how he was the original pusher on one of them. Again, town don't need to point out they were the original pusher unless they are in danger of mislynch. Usually scum point out their originality when not under threat.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Mahonster

Lol quality discussion.

I know, right.

[Fro99er]

@SW - I tend to non-entity Day 1. Habit I've never been able to break. This game makes it extra hard because I don't like trying to read through personal attacks and bullshit.

Can you provide town examples of this?

Also, while I'm low post count - I was the person that pushed the now currently largest wagon to where it is

- so I'm a nonentity because I'm not posting insane post counts? It's not like all my posts have been prod dodges. This is really weird logic that doesn't seem normal for you.

This is pretty scummy. Especially the bolded.

Only if you want exmaples taht are 4 years old - as that's the last time I played a large. Sorry.

Also - it is TOTALLY scummy without context. However it was a direct reply to this:

-Quaroath only has 9 posts and is basically a non-entity

It entire purpose was to point out - Hey, I'm contributing and have impacted the game. That's hardly "non entity". In context, it's a lot less bad. But then again - you didn't want to quote the context for that reason I assume?

I get that, and that's why left your whole quote in and even mentioned specifically the bolded part was especially scummy part while still leaving the rest of the quote in (which was also scummy).

But that doesn't excuse the fact that you were called out for a low post count as a non-entity, and to prove your entity-worthiness you were like "I TOTALLY DID SOMETHING!"

That's the full context, and it's still scummy. You just even said so yourself with "Hey, I'm contributing and have impacted the game"...like, why did you feel the need to defend yourself like that when you had ZERO votes on you. Scum are the ones who tend to point out they are "contributing" and "impacting the game".

Also, so you mean you tell me you don't have a game in 4 years where you were a non-entity, even though you SAID you tend to non-entity in D1 and it's a habit you can't break (while trying to prove you were actually being an entity by making your "I'm doing stuff" point)?

[Fro99er]

Like seriously...if it's a habit you are unable to break, why do you not have an example going back 4 years? That's not a habit.

And why are you claiming you tend to non-entity D1, while at the same time trying to counter to SW that you are an entity D1?

[Fro99er]

My pool would be grey (obvious reasons), Anna (overall play), or Shinobi.

These are pretty bad. Especially Shinobi.


Pedit: how did Shinobi possibly scumslip? I've been pretty solid town on him, so an actual scumslip would change my view of the game state.

[Fro99er]

Even more interesting, it comes from another town read of mine in Spiffeh.

[Fro99er]

Shin's probably town. That reaction is not scum!Shinobi reaction.

When he was scum in Refraction just last month, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and why and why. And why and why!

[Fro99er]

That same logic tells me that defending myself now isn't needed because I only have 1 vote - yours.

Yet you felt the need to defend yourself about SW saying you were non-entity when you had ZERO votes...

[Fro99er]

This is a large - I don't have a large for reference that survived the server death.

This is bullshit. You said you tend to non-entity, and it's a habit of yours. How do you not have an example in 4 years? I don't care if it's not a large or what...you clearly are semi-backtracking by now trying to focus only on larges.

If you don't have an example in 4 years, then it is not a habit, as you claim it is.

And yes, if you had provided an example, I would have been satisfied.

[Fro99er]

Let me go find a couple games for you if you are good with non larges.

That would be spectacular

[Fro99er]

Fro99er you automatically declaring Shinobi town without even hearing the scumslip is weird af. Why defend him so early without hearing me out?

This is a fair point. I tend to rely on meta a lot. Maybe too much sometimes. But that actually felt like a town!shinobi reaction. When he was scum, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and explain things and blah blah. He totally played it cool there, which didn't seem like scum!Shin. But I'll hear you out.

Anyway I might just be overly paranoid. I'll see what Boon thinks about it before I make a fool of myself and bring it here.

I am still not entirely thrilled with Shinobi's performance recently so I'll leave my vote here for now.

:-/ but I get it in regards to the hood. I just feel it's a bit wrong to ask me why I consider shinobi town without hearing your case, then you won't tell me your case. It's like I'm not allowed to have an opinion on Shinobi at all until you explain things, unless it's a scum opinion. That's basically putting me (and everyone else) in limbo about Shinobi, and then you are free to question me/us for townreading him at your leisure.

[Fro99er]

@Wake - I'm having a really hard time reading/following all this:

Spoiler: @Wake

Here, my wagon was rushed, and I cautioned players regarding it. *

This had been preceded by three votes in rapid succession [11 minutes].***

The wagon attempt was questioned again.*

During this, TSO questions Grayfoxxxx for his vote on me.* Just after, Silverwolf questions all three.*

In response to TSO's question, Grayfoxxxx says he's scumhunting and sheeping Sal.*. At this point I do feel he's Town, but is a bit lame, or dumb, in that he reasoning sucks, and I think Scum in general, their nature being to do things to not be suspected and lynched, wouldn't resort to saying stupid things like that. Does that make sense?

At this point it starts to get interesting, and here is

exactly

why.

In response to Grayfoxxxx, TSO says he wants to lynch him.* He then says voting Grayfoxxxx will earn you towncred*, and stresses his desire to see Grayfoxxxx dead.*

Now, what's remarkable about this, like now? Let's see.

Knowing the nature of the game, and not wanting potentially dumb-Town being lynched because, well, Town, I caution the group again.* Meaning he could really be Town, and Scum

will

attempt to capitalize.

This is the start of the real issue.

TSO suggests I should move my vote, because he says it's doing nothing.*

Curious, and hyper-alert to manipulation, I ask him where he wants me to move my vote.*

TSO gives an unconvincing reason for voting for Grayfoxxxx.* Not enthused.*

Knowing that I was one of four players who had placed votes on other players that were at L-10, I ask him why he selects me.* He and I both know how it looks with Grayfoxxxx's unwise vote on my unwise wagon. A seed of doubt regarding TSO'd intentions stepping in between us to convince me to unvote him and go for Grayfoxxxx... I don't feel it is coincidental.

Curiously, he responds by asking me why I thought any of those other three players were even remotely worthy of my vote.* He misread.

Because of this, I ask him why he thinks Grayfoxxxx is worthy of my vote.*

TSO responds by asking me why I mentioned Boonskiies, that he's not a viable wagon, and that no one has really expressed interest in voting him.* While he said this, I knew he had misunderstood me.

Rewind a few posts: TSO hints at wanting one or more people to step up and help.* I'm weighing it.*

TSO provides some reasons why Grayfoxxxx should be voted, but he opens himself up for interrogation.* The main detail of import was him saying Grayfoxxxx lurked as Scum, implying Grayfoxxxx is Scum for supposedly lurking this game.

I clarify things for TSO here.*

It gets better.

I pick at his reasoning.*

Grayfoxxxx responds to TSO's reasons on why he should be voted.*

TSO then says he doesn't have the patience to cajole me into voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

So, knowing I'm voting TSO, and that I have a 7W with Grayfoxxxx on it, TSO tries to persuade me to change my vote to Grayfoxxxx. He's suggested who is and isn't remotely worthy of my vote, and has been persuade me to do something with flattery [cajoling].

Asking for evidence of Grayfoxxxx being lurky as Scum.*

TSO offers evidence that, in the end, actually hurts his case against Grayfoxxxx.* He links a game where Scum-Grayfoxxxx posted five times and then replaced out [1240 posts, 49 pages], as evidence of him being Scum here. This game, at that point, Grayfoxxxx has posted 37 times [1091 posts, 44 pages].

Does anyone else not see this?

Made my concerns known.*

TSO reaffirms my suspicion that he was wanting to get me to unvote him and vote for Grayfoxxxx.* Also that he was trying to capitalize on my predicament to effect change in my vote. Says he misread, and that he targeted me to change my vote because I was online, though he just reaffirmed to me that he chose me because of my predicament, to get me to change my vote. Which means he didn't target me because I was online. He then questions me as to why he would openly tell me he was trying to flatter me, though he just admitted that he had tried to flatter me twice to get me to shift, which means he was trying to flatter me none-the-less.

Pointing it out in retro.*

Throughout these exchanges, Grayfoxxxx has pointed out TSO's wishy-washy case against him based on Scum meta.

Silverwolf jumps in, voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

TSO apparently back-pedals off the shit case against Grayfoxxxx, and instead redirects to why Gray is voting me.*

I caution Silverwolf.* Unsure if she is Town, I decide to check if she will play stupid, or be genuine. Having ushered her into the game, and knowing that she played more than some of my games as she learned, I have a better understanding of her play than other players, in general. That's the truth of it. I know that Silverwolf gets weary as Scum, and doesn't like having to play under false pretensions.

Again I caution her about TSO's atgtempt to manipulate me to strike at Gray, even though Gray is on my 8W for insufficient reasons.*

Guys, note these next exchanges.

Silverwolf asks me if TSO is Scum for his push on Grayfoxxxx.*

In effect I respond to her that if she read the last exchanges, she would see that TSO was trying to subvert my vote to Grayfoxxxx, through flattery, trying to capitalize on my predicament, which would benefit TSO and put another weight on Gray.*

Note this, guys.

She very simplistically decides to not actually read the exchanges or my posts, especially the ones where I actually posted to point out he was trying to manipulate me. Definitely over-simplifying it; Town Silverwolf would give a damn and not try to gloss something over. Something is wrong with that filter this game, which gives me reason to pause. She asks me if I'm scumreading TSO, townreading Gray, and why I objected to her vote. That is dancing around the question. She never once asked me

why

I was suspicious of TSO. No, that would draw attention.*

Basically, at this point a shade of doubt manifests, in that maybe, maybe, Silverwolf is running interference for TSO.

Shinobi timely pops in. Says Ozgin [who'd later be run up wrong and claim JoaT].*

Silverwolf is loving the idea. She wants to see that wagon going. Divert!*

I respond to her, brushing away the dodgy questions, and asking her exactly why she hasn't asked me why I'm suspecting TSO.*

She shuts down by saying I'm rude.* Doesn't want to answer, or really talk about it, which makes me think 'why?' I mean, she's presumably Town, so why wouldn't Town-Silverwolf actually engage? No, she'd be interested. She wouldn't be dodging. She wouldn't try to redirect the discussion. She wouldn't be playing obtuse. No, I point my finger at Silverwolf, and I keep my vote on TSO for now.

Shinobi plays dumb, and also tries to redirect the discussion elsewhere, to the bad Ozgin wagon.*

Both Silverwolf and Shinobi refuse to engage me over TSO's attempt to capitalize on my predicament, and his attempts to flatter me to change my vote. They're just ignoring it, and I think I might know why.

TSO
Silverwolf
Shinobi

I'm keeping these three in mind. Did not like that flow of exchanges one bit: it was coordinated.

Again I point this stuff out.*

Shinobi completely plays dumb in a devil-may-care kind of way.*

Shinobi and Silverwolf are avoiding engaging me directly and genuinely on the TSO/Grayfoxxxx issue.

TSO does not engage further. Proceeds to go about as if nothing happened.

I'm calling it on those three, tentatively.

Can you give a nice, consise TL;DR version of it. Every time I try to read it, my eyes glaze over.

[Fro99er]

I would expect a townie to withhold their judgement until they heard the slip.

So we're all required to withhold judgement until Boon gives you the ok?

I'm not liking that. I'm not saying its scummy, I just don't like that. I thought Shin was town well before you brought up a possible scumslip, and now I'm supposed to magically null read him because you say he might have scum slipped but you won't tell us?

[Fro99er]

meant for his scum chat

So do you think scum have daychat?

[Fro99er]

No it's the way you threw it in there right after you asked what the scumslip was. Naturally, you expected me to share what the slip was, so why throw in an "oh btw Shinobi is town"? I don't have a problem with you town reading him-it's just your timing was interesting. Or scummy. I don't really know.

Right, so Shinobi has been scum reading me all game, and me town reading him all game, and we used his potential scumslip as a way for me to start defending him.

[Fro99er]

@mod: V/LA today...i am sick

[Fro99er]

food queue -> cranberry sauce

[Fro99er]

Look, what I'm saying here is that if I'd been playing the game from the start I'd have been voting you by page 30. Probably a lot sooner, but at least by then.
I'm about to post up to 35, so for all intents and purposes I'm playing the game a week back in time still.

Drop the attitude.

idgaf about having reads as you go and them changing as you read, but feeling confident voting for a person when you have not been playing the game from the beginning and are replacing in and haven't read even half the game yet is not what I would expect from someone honestly trying to figure this game out, unless you caught a scumslip or some other shit.

Drop the attitude.

wow

Silver wolf is kind of a dick.
It's mildly entertaining, especially since fm has no attitude apparent to me in his posts.

Look, what I'm saying here is that if I'd been playing the game from the start I'd have been voting you by page 30. Probably a lot sooner, but at least by then.
I'm about to post up to 35, so for all intents and purposes I'm playing the game a week back in time still.

Drop the attitude.

idgaf about having reads as you go and them changing as you read, but feeling confident voting for a person when you have not been playing the game from the beginning and are replacing in and haven't read even half the game yet is not what I would expect from someone honestly trying to figure this game out, unless you caught a scumslip or some other shit.

You were confident enough on p36 to (apparently, based on a skim of your ISO) run Oz up to a claim (don't tell me anything about the speed or claim please).
I would have been confident enough by p30 to do the same to you.

If you have a problem with that then you're not the player I thought you were.

Drop the attitude.

wow

I've noticed you don't have a lot to say unless it's about me this game. Reading your ISO, it's apparent. Why is that?

Silver wolf is kind of a dick.
It's mildly entertaining, especially since fm has no attitude apparent to me in his posts.

Great observation. Super helpful.

Thanks, I try to be helpful when I can.

If anyone needs anger counseling I am here.
As someone who has sought professional help with their own anger I feel competent enough to tell others how to manage their own in healthy ways.

Drop the attitude.

wow

I've noticed you don't have a lot to say unless it's about me this game. Reading your ISO, it's apparent. Why is that?

i mean u do have 50 posts more than anyone else

I feel like your main objective is to say things to piss me off. What good does it do?

Firebringer and GM-your comments were pretty shitty as well.

lol delirious mafia is what this should be called omg

p-edit: silver i feel like you are being deliberately obtuse when it comes to the point of me reading in chunks and posting my findings. that is all.

NOT ONE OF YOU KNOWS ME FOR SHIT.

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ATTENTION. I'M TRYING TO PLAY THE FUCKING GAME AND YOU GUYS ARE MAKING IT PERSONAL WHEN WE HAVE 4 FUCKING DAYS LEFT.

GM-YOU TRYING TO EGG THEM ON IS NOT THE TYPE OF PLAYER OR PERSON I THOUGH YOU WERE. IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE I REALLY LIKED YOU BEFORE THIS BUT NOW I THINK YOU ARE TRYING TO GET ME TO FLY OFF THE HANDLE.

I DO FEEL LIKE YOU ALL ARE TRYING TO UPSET ME FOR SOME REASON.

MY POSTING LEVEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEVEL OF LURKSACKS AND ANTI-TOWN PLAYERS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING FAR TOO FUCKING PERSONAL WITH ME.

No one is trying to upset you.

Take a break from this game, take a walk you clearly are not in the mood to be posting or playing.

Nice "attention" trigger you got there SW.

(as in when you seeking attention is mentioned you pop a gasket)

@Wake Your wall isn't all garbage, it'll be something to look at later, more so the shaky defense of the grayfox wagon by TSO.

Get sick for a day, come back, and the game has once again gone off the rails.

I really don't feel like playing this right now.

[Fro99er]

Sorry for the multi quote...stupid not-so-smart phone.

[Fro99er]

Boon and Kop have been hardcore lurkers, and it seems like there's scum in one of those two.

Kop wants a boon wagon, and Boon has basically defended Ozgin all game and weakly suspected a few players. I can't tell if it's town townreading ozgin or scum buddying up to say, in essence, told you so after ozgin claims like he did in 1289

[Fro99er]

———•

Why

did you switch to Ozgin?* You never explained why, and then you quickly unvoted 20 posts later.

I hate this question. Of course Tex unvoted quickly. Ozgin claimed JOAT 8 posts later.

This is one of those questions scum asks that's meant to throw suspicion on Tex unfairly toward her. You are detailed enough to know she unvoted 20 posts later, yet aren't detailed enough to see Ozgin's claim in there???

[Fro99er]

———•

Why have you contributed so little?

This question as well.

It's well known Tex is a low post count player, and has already been stated so in thread.

Some of these questions are just meant to add suspicion to Tex unfairly.

[Fro99er]

I was only looking at her ISO.

Alright, fair enough...I can see that being the case. It probably would have been good to see what happened in those 20 posts though...

[Fro99er]

Why not let her speak for herself?

Why does this question always get asked? This is like the 10th time this game or something.

I'm letting her speak for herself, I didn't answer for her. I didn't answer WHY she voted Ozgin, I didn't answer WHY she's contributing so little. I'm stating facts that your questions are seemingly unfairly throwing suspicion on her.

She's free to answer any and every question you've asked.

[Fro99er]

Would have rather you waited until she answered, then you make your feelings known clearly.

This is ridiculous. So you are putting restrictions on what I can talk about? I saw activity of yours that I deemed scummy looking, and I called it out. We're 3 days from deadline and you want me to wait who knows how long for a low activity player to come in and answer your questions? Ok...

It was like Spiffeh saying I needed to hold off on having an opinion on Shinobi until he told us how Shinobi scum slipped (which he still hasn't).

[Fro99er]

I don't recall Town-Boonskiies being a lurker in my Freshwater Frenzy LN, with 353 posts.

Now see, this is a good find. But I need to ask...how many players were in that game, and how many posts did Boon have on D1?

[Fro99er]

You're free to post when you want. I am telling you it would have been better if you had waited. That is all.

10-4

[Fro99er]

21, like this one. Don't know how much he posted Day 1 there, but we can check.

That would be great.

[Fro99er]

I don't need to wait for the answer

VOTE: Boonskiies

Has been super active elsewhere

yet is just prod dodging here. His ISO sucks. He wanted a Mahonster lynch without making any push whatsoever, then has vote parked on Gray since like post 500 something without actually contributing anything other than hard defending Ozgin to be like, "told ya so" after Ozgin's claim.

[Fro99er]

I already told you guys what happened in the neighborhood.

I probably missed it. I was V/LA yesterday, and I was looking for Spiffeh to say it, so that's also probably why I missed it.

[Fro99er]

Start here, work backwards. *

11 times in two pages as of page 66.

26 times in thirteen pages as of page 55.

Cool, find the D1 flip, note the post number, then ISO Boonskiies. It's 91 posts (it's ISOO #90, but there's also an ISO #0 so add 1 to the final ISO number)

[Fro99er]

Ironically, the flip was on Page 68 of that 21 player game. This is page 69.

[Fro99er]

Boonskiies is our lynch today people!

[Fro99er]

GM!

Just read the last couple pages and vote boon with us, k?

[Fro99er]

TSO, we are making a passioned case.

I've stated how Boon's ISO is shit, how he hard defended Ozgin and then made an I told you so post after the JOAT claim.

I've stated how he vote parked on gray for about 1200 posts now.

I've stated his case on Mahonster isn't a case.

Wake and I have pointed out his activity is inconsistent with his town meta.

So stop ignoring the facts and help us lynch scum

[Fro99er]

Wake and I have pointed out his activity is inconsistent with his town meta

But consistent with his scum meta which boon himself said in a recent game.

[Fro99er]

Guys please vote for Kop.

What do you think of boon?

[Fro99er]

How active has boon been in your neighborhood?

[Fro99er]

He is nonexistent in both the neighborhood and the thread.

What do you think of Kop?

But he's been super achieve everywhere else on this site.....

[Fro99er]

Then he can be vig'd or something. I am more confident in lynching someone who has been posting like scum than a lurker for now. So please tell me how you feel about Kop.

I'm cool for a wagon on Boon to get him talking but I don't want Kop to go away as an option for lynch today.

I'm on my phone so I can't state everything on Kop rn.

I'm not lynching boon for activity. I'm lynching him for scummy play. Kip is voting boo, so unless multiball or bussing, that alone makes me feel good about Kop but I need to look further.

[Fro99er]

I agree he is lurking in this game. Also, he's not paying attention. Remember the joke Aero made about Nanette replacing out? Aero clarified that he was making a joke about 3 times before Boon finally got it. I'm not sure if that is alignment indicative though.

@Frogger, got any idea if inattention is scum or town meta for Boon?

No idea, never played with boon. That's why I relied on Wake for the meta case, and the meta case is pretty damning. Like almost as damning as ika's scum meta.

[Fro99er]

Gray...GTFO Anna. It's not happening.

What do you think of boon?

[Fro99er]

It was super easy to check for myself. The fact that you want a lurker lynched on meta without checking more in depth makes me wary of you!

Now you are being dense. I just said meta is PART of the case...the last part, which I had Wake confirm for me since I'm phone posting.

I stated several other reasons that you are intentionally choosing to ignore.

[Fro99er]

@Spiffeh - READ THIS

I don't need to wait for the answer

VOTE: Boonskiies

Has been super active elsewhere

yet is just prod dodging here. His ISO sucks. He wanted a Mahonster lynch without making any push whatsoever, then has vote parked on Gray since like post 500 something without actually contributing anything other than hard defending Ozgin to be like, "told ya so" after Ozgin's claim.

The bolded is me saying I didn't need to wait for the meta ansewr, because I found other stuff scummy BEFORE meta even mattered.

TSO, we are making a passioned case.

I've stated how Boon's ISO is shit, how he hard defended Ozgin and then made an I told you so post after the JOAT claim.

I've stated how he vote parked on gray for about 1200 posts now.

I've stated his case on Mahonster isn't a case.

Wake and I have pointed out his activity is inconsistent with his town meta.

So stop ignoring the facts and help us lynch scum

This has all my facts here that you are ignoring, bolded for you to see.

[Fro99er]

fucking phone ITS ALL BOLDED LOL

REad the first sentence of my 1709 and the lines that start with "I've" in 1730. It shows Meta isnt my only fucking case.

[Fro99er]

Nah

Then you're being anti-town.

Sky and I have moved off Anna because she has obvtowned in our neighborhood.

[Fro99er]

WTF are you even talking about Gray. Stop being useless.

[Fro99er]

We just need a fucking flip to sort all this out. This game is becoming so frustrating.

Someone vig Boon tonight. They are scum.

UNVOTE:

I'll get on a Gray wagon if it means a flip. At least VT isn't the worst thing to lynch.

[Fro99er]

Why not Mahon, Frogger?

Well, I had a moment of paranoia with Mahon, but realized I was probably wrong, especially after rememebering Boon's stance on Mahonster.

Why do you think Mahonster is scum?

[Fro99er]

Frogger what do you think about Kop pls

I thought early game he could be scum.

Then after I joined I actually thought his pressure on me for my pressure on Ozgin seemed pretty townie.

After the first claim I like his posts in 944-954 because it showed town thinking and good questioning.

1510 was the worst post ever and made me think he could be scum again.

But he also thinks boon is scum, and so do I. So could be town. IDK

I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum. I wouldn't be surprised if he's town. I've been waffling on Kop.

[Fro99er]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum. I wouldn't be surprised if he's town.

So you expect me to have a strong opinion on everyone?

[Fro99er]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum. I wouldn't be surprised if he's town.

So you expect me to have a strong opinion on everyone?

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

Then what did you mean, in plain English, and not smiley face.

[Fro99er]

@Mod: replace me out...or replace out all the people making this game toxic. I'm not dealing with this game anymore

[Fro99er]

Aero just modkill everyone.

[Fro99er]

Then he can be vig'd or something. I am more confident in lynching someone who has been posting like scum than a lurker for now. So please tell me how you feel about Kop.

I'm cool for a wagon on Boon to get him talking but I don't want Kop to go away as an option for lynch today.

I'm on my phone so I can't state everything on Kop rn.

I'm not lynching boon for activity. I'm lynching him for scummy play. Kip is voting boo, so unless multiball or bussing, that alone makes me feel good about Kop but I need to look further.

So your feeling confident in your thoughts that this is multiball? How do you know this for sure? This here, is pure guess work with no fabrication, or indications to back this point up, other than 'he feels good'.

And bussing? If I was scum, I'd not need to bus anybody, I could have simply carried on the way I went on before I put my two pennith on Fox, but I am not scum, so why should I hide?

I was trying to respond to this when the thread locked

I never said I feel confident this is multiball. I have no idea. My point was in regards to your vote on Boon:

1) If it's single ball, then I feel a bit more town on you for your vote on Boon, because I believe Boon is scum and I do not believe you are bussing Boon if its single ball format.
2) If it's multi-ball, then I cannot feel as good about you being town, because it's possible you are scum who is scum-reading someone from the other team.

Overall, I've waffled on how I feel about you, as described earlier to Spiffeh. Specifically in regards to your vote on Boon, my points 1 and 2 describe how I feel.

[Fro99er]

If you're online Grayfoxxxx, make sure you claim at L1.

He claimed VT already. Unless you are joking and I'm missing the joke.

[Fro99er]

Boon with the active lurk. Hasn't posted in over a day, then L-1 hammers within minutes...

[Fro99er]

dont put him at l-1 boon will quickhammer

ayyyyyyy

vote:grayfox

Did someone say L-1?

VOTE: GF

Especially given their interaction earlier in the day phase.

[Fro99er]

10-4...completely missed that.

Still don't like Boon's active lurking, but wnot tie it to you for that.

[Fro99er]

You guys...TSO is pretty obvscum here, but don't rush to lynch only so that we can get some discussion/talk going.

Fire has no reason to risk this as scum, because then he's dead tomorrow if TSO is a mislynch today, which would be a horrible gambit. Given that there's a flipped doctor, a cop claim seems very plausible, even likely. I also believe Fire is relatively new here, so he probably geniunely confused rolecop and cop, as I don't believe he's been cop here before on this site, but I haven't played every game with him.

@Fire - where did you play previously, and what was the name of the investigative role that let you see alignment called on that site?

It's also pretty obvious we're in multiball, either as two full scum teams or a scum team+SK. Three kills with one scum faction doesn't make sense. I don't see how one scum faction would have two or more kills, and I don't see there being two town killing roles for one night either.

[Fro99er]

We have no idea about Shinobi. It could be an all town neighborhood.

I guess what is interesting is that Shinobi apparently scum slipped and spiffeh called him out for it. Then when I asked spiffeh to explain it, Shinobi is the one who explained it away. Now Spiffeh and Boon, who were in his neighborhood are dead. That alone doesn't implicate Shinobi, because I've been townreading him mostly, but it doesn't help. But it's a bunch of WIFOM and speculation right now.

TSO's eventual lynch and the night flips will clear up more.

Also, I should clarify...when I said Fire has no reason to risk this as scum, Fire could still be scum cop, I was wrong. But he has no reason to lie at all. As town cop, why would he lie? He wouldn't. And as scum cop, why would he lie...he'd be lynched the next day. In fact, as scum cop it behooves him to tell the truth even more, for the town cred.

[Fro99er]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer, Vanillaizer, Beloved Princess, Arsonist, Governor

Why aren't you reading 4 lines below that?

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

It's possible that he's survivor, I guess. It would have to be one of the 2 allowed variant roles. Seems unlikely he's survivor, but not impossible.

The question remains what would Fire get as an investigative result on a survivor?

Pedit: Wolfie, asks the same thing

[Fro99er]

There's six scum. And there's 11 names. It's possible one person got through the net, but no more than that.

Why are there six scum? I've seen five and seven in 21 player larges before.

[Fro99er]

And 5 is the most likely number of Scum in this game.

Why is that?

If we're in multiball, which is pretty much a certainty, then 3-3, 4-3, 3-3-1 or 2-2-1 are all possible depending on powers. I've seen all of those.

[Fro99er]

If it's one faction. 5-1 or 4-1 would make sense.

Ok, you're considering an SK as not multiball (or just one scum faction), I gotcha.

[Fro99er]

leashing TSO would be pretty risky, in case TSO is actual scum and not SK

[Fro99er]

Oh and do we really want the debate all game of what if he's a fakeclaiming scum?

Totally agree. TSO is today's lynch.

But I do want to ask fire...why did you quickclaim cop/TSO guilty? Wouldn't it have been better to try to get another investigation off and out two things tomorrow? You currently weren't in danger of being lynched since day just started. Had you become in danger, you could have claimed. And if you didn't get close to being lynched, you were at least scumread enough that you probably wouldn't have been a night kill, except for a vig, but the even night vig died.

Just curious why you didn't go for a 2nd investigation, and crumbed a TSO guilty instead?

[Fro99er]

Just curious why you didn't go for a 2nd investigation, and crumbed a TSO guilty instead?

suboptimal

also if he dies, its very easy for someone to kinda mess up who he did check and what his results are

Like I said, he wasn't at risk of dying yet. If he was, he could out his result. If he felt he was townread enough, he could have outed it near day end too. The even night vig is dead, so only scum would kill him tonight. In that event, he could have crumbed his result. There's some pretty obvious ways of crumbing it.

He could still be scum cop. I'm not ruling that out, in which case it's to his benefit to get the result out there ASAP.

[Fro99er]

OK, If TSO is a killing role, and the other kill is a vig, then there is only one scumteam which makes the chances of Firebringer being a scum cop less likely. I do agree he could of pushed TSO without claiming right away but it's not a bad thing that he claimed. If he dies, and TSO isn't lynched, that's a problem.

And if TSO is groupscum?

Still think Fire could have waited. If he was in danger of death, he could always out, or blatantly crumb at worst. A cop flip means we would have been searching for crumbs. Philosophy I guess. I've been chided multiple times in the past for claiming early, by some of my close friends even, so now I'm wary of it.

[Fro99er]

GM can confirm I got yelled at for claiming tracker too early.

[Fro99er]

Are you calling ika out for legibility? Really?

Also. TSO needs to die, but more people need to talk about the game state before TSO dies.

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

I'm going to go look at 180. I think I know what TSO is talking about.

Also, he is a 3rd party and not groupscum due to Firebringer's result.

Don't vote for him yet. Hold on a minute.

Can you explain the bolded?

[Fro99er]

Fire relax. Everyone believes you.

I just disagree it was best to insta-reveal. Philosophical differences

No need to tell anyone screw you for it

[Fro99er]

@Wolfie - groupscum is also not aligned with town.

Usually it's a binary result. Town/not town. Guilty/not guilt
Exactly as TSO said.

Dunno how that clears him as 3rd party

[Fro99er]

It's probably mod dependent. So it could be binary, or it could be be Indicactive of 3p. But we can't know for sure

[Fro99er]

I love Lapsa and Tex. Shinobi rocks too.!Go refraction mafia

I'm drunk

[Fro99er]

Back later today, but I still think TSO needs to go.

[Fro99er]

Frogger pretty blatantly isn't reading the game, which is sadly a thing conftown tend to do. If he's half as competent as I think he is from the past, he'll realise that the Red lynch is the correct play.

Meh.

I've been reading. Just not posting. Yesterday was busy, then turned tragic. Don't really want to talk about it.

I fucked everything last time because I was mason with Texie (<3) and I posted too much so I'm trying not to fuck everything up this time.

Anyway, obviously TSO is not town aligned, and I cannot say for sure about Red. I actually feel pretty convinced Tex is scum here though. I know I'm not getting town to suddenly flip to voting tex and TSO killing red, but that would be my preference if the game were up to me. I need to figure out Red's alignment better for me to feel comfortable voting red.

[Fro99er]

Also, I'd love to see mahonster dead. Nosferatu called out his classic scum post. Then mahonsters argument was "I'm not classic". That confirmed it for me.

[Fro99er]

The NK target could change possibly based off Tex's flip if we can find some Tex associatives.

I'd most prefer a Tex lynch and a Mahonster vig, but town is pretty set on Red. I have no clue about red, and i'm trying to read up now to sort his alignment.

[Fro99er]

I fucked everything last time because I was mason with Texie (<3) and I posted too much so I'm trying not to fuck everything up this time.

That's not why town lost that game. Stop worrying about it.

I do. It affected me a lot. I felt terrible for a solid couple days. I apologized to the whole player list via PMs.

Anyway - my wife is having a procedure here soon, so I'm going to be out today. I'm pretty stressed about it. Hopefully all will be fine and I'll be ready to play tonight or tomorrow.

[Fro99er]

The NK target could change possibly based off Tex's flip if we can find some Tex associatives.

I'd most prefer a Tex lynch and a Mahonster vig, but town is pretty set on Red. I have no clue about red, and i'm trying to read up now to sort his alignment.

How are you going to change the target and direct TSO at night? In the scum thread?

Seriously, why do you want my lynch? What on earth makes you think I am scum? And I'm pretty sure Red is town too. Town is not set on Red. That's mostly scum you see voting for him, led by the head scum TSO. I would add, trust me on this, but you don't really have to trust me on this. We KNOW that TSO is scum.

Kop, what makes you think that we aren't going anywhere with the TSO lynch? If obviously you want to lynch TSO, why don't you put your vote there? Saying that you want a lynch and not voting for it is scummy as heck in my book.

Lol did you really just say I'm scum with TSO? Lolololol. To answer your question, town could decide to lynch you, figure out who you may be scum with, and tell TSO if you flip scum TSO must kill X or if you flip town TSO must kill Y. But that might not be possible if he's scum and you are SK, which I think is possible (see below)

Anyway. I agree it's possible TSO is scum. I also agree ika is likely town and makes a good, original case for TSO to be groupscum.

I disagree with you being town even though you agree with ika. Your take on TSO makes me think you are SK who can't counter claim or you are groupscum with knowledge that it must be multiball somehow. You seem to be so sure TSO is scum but haven't made your own argument, and what you are saying sounds like you have knowledge he can't be SK.

[Fro99er]

I'm voting TSO or Tex today.

Going to discuss with my hood when I'm back home tonight or tomorrow.

[Fro99er]

Stop playing dense. If you can't see how trying to discredit the person instead of addressing their points then you are either scum or clueless.

who is this directed at?

[Fro99er]

So I just noticed fire said "not aligned with town" and Ozgin said "town" for their investigatives. I don't think that implies anything about TSO being scum or SK, because both are not aligned with town. He's obviously one of those, but IDK which.

I'd be ok leashing TSO only under the circumstances where I feel good we're lynching another scum. I'm not sure red is it.

[Fro99er]

Tex...I looked back because at the time it read like prior knowledge for you. But I see what you are saying now, yes.

[Fro99er]

Well TSO, if you are SK, I want to lynch scum AND have you vig scum

[Fro99er]

ika chill. I'm drawing a trail out of him if he flips groupscum

TSO - why lynch red and instead why not lynch Mahonster and vig tex? I believe those two are likelier to flip scum.

[Fro99er]

Because red is still likely to flip scum, in my book, and is the popular choice today. I wanted texcat dead earlier but no-one else would vote him.

I don't give two fucks about your book. You're not aligned with town so the fact that you are driving the red wagon makes me nervous.

[Fro99er]

WOlfie, you may be right RE: red. I admittedly haven't read up on it enough and plan on doing so tonight. I might change my mind then and I need to speak with my hood.

But rn I think Tex and Mah are two likeliest to flip scum aside from TSO

[Fro99er]

I'm back.

I'm going to go through red's ISO right now.

[Fro99er]

well, I made it through post 363, and I'm pretty sure that post confirms mahonster and red are not scum together. But I do think one of the two is scum based off that post.

We could leash T S O, lynch red and have T S O vig Mahonster to guarantee we hit scum, then get T S O when the time is right. This gives us two scum dead for sure, and possibly three if we're somehow in SK+scum+scum (like 2-2-1).

Or we could just lynch claimed SK, but that only guarantees us one dead anti-town.

[Fro99er]

If we leash T S O, I suggest we get him to kill Mahonster

[Fro99er]

Even if we lynch TSO we'll be right back here at the same spot with another dead townie tonight and these same players around and the same debate with scum having more say in things with one less townie around.

This is a really good point.

[Fro99er]

Ok if somebody decides to vig me tonight, please ask for reads before that. I'd really like my death to not be completely pointless.

Sorry, school started for me today. I'll start being busy, doesn't mean I won't participate and try in here though.

Give us your reads then

[Fro99er]

And BTW, I am 100% for lynching red and confident that he is scum.

Yeah, I am pretty damn sure we hit scum if we get red and mahonster.

Going to chat with my hood before I put Red at L-1

[Fro99er]

@Silver - I would much rather a Mahonster lynch today than a texcat or redff. I'll make a case if I really have to, but the whole redFF push feels wrong and I still don't understand the point of keeping TSO around.

What difference is it if we lynch red and have TSO kill mahonster? Otherwise we're going to try to convince all of town to lynch mahonster and have him kill red or tex? doesn't make sense.

I already explained if we get a red lynch and have TSO kill mahonster, we're all but guaranteed to hit scum. Silverwolf explained why its a better option than just lynching TSO - because we're just going to have the same questions around mahonster, qua, red, and tex tomorrow. At least if we get two of those out of the way, we can always lynch TSO whenever we want.

[Fro99er]

So much for talking to my hood on that...

[Fro99er]

ika...TSO is going nowhere. He's going to be done soon enough.

this is a better plant to sort through the rest of the question marks

[Fro99er]

whatever, i guarantee TSO won't be around for the whole game. hitting 2 scum is better than hitting 1

[Fro99er]

Then he's flash lynched. accidentally killing more towns doesn't help his wincon as scum or as SK because he knows he's instalynched as soon as he doesn't follow towns directives.

[Fro99er]

intent to hammer TSO

But everyone talks first.

[Fro99er]

TSO did you kill Wolfie or Shinobi? Or did one of your scumbuddies make the kill?

[Fro99er]

3-3 seems reasonable. 2-2 seems unlikely given the power town has already displayed and a flipped mafia goon. I guess there could be 2-3 or 3-4 in some worlds. I think it's pretty clear there is no SK at this point.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Ozgin

Makes sense. Too much town power for Oz to be a town JOAT given one of the mafia flipped goon. Town would be too overpowered with 7 claimed/flipped town power roles already
- Even night vig (spiffeh)
- Even night bodyguard (ika)
- doctor (boon)
- universal backup turned doc (tex)
- JOAT (ozgin)
- neighbor inspector (wolfie)
- Cop (fire)

Oz...you had some JOAT abilities left...have you used them?

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

We're not quick lynching until Oz talks. Jesus christ people.

[Fro99er]

Wasn't even past half the needed votes...

Uh, yes.

You put him at L-2. There's 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Yours was the 4th vote

[Fro99er]

Ok, I feel good that GM is town.

[Fro99er]

i think you're hallucinating. Mah and Red probably aren't on the same team based off their interactions.

[Fro99er]

i think you're hallucinating. Mah and Red probably aren't on the same team based off their interactions.

MULTIBAAALLLLLLLLLLL

So we agree

[Fro99er]

I want to vote Ozgin but I don't want to put him at L-1 just yet. I think it would be nice to have a chance to do some more scum hunting before we end this day.

This.

I want Oz to talk before we hang him at minimum.

I also think Mahon is either mafia team or town...more likely mafia team.

@Lapsa - who do you think is werewolf and who do you think is mafia?

[Fro99er]

Fire has been pinging my radar too. He's all too willing to out scum, then voted TSO and vote parked, didn't discuss leashing TSO, didn't out town. Says he won't create reads lists. Basically is doing nothing to help town except out other scum based on cop results. WHY ISNT THE COP OUTING SCUM DEAD?

[Fro99er]

Last time I was in a game aero modded, the claimed cop survived to end game...he was scum.

[Fro99er]

And it was multiball

[Fro99er]

What?

[Fro99er]

prod dodge. Long day. Back tomorrow

[Fro99er]

Mod V/LA through end of Monday

[Fro99er]

@Mod: I need to extend V/LA one day further to tomorrow. Had some very important RL stuff come up just now.

[Fro99er]

Your prodding game might've been off but your page top game is on point.

This post wins the game.

[Fro99er]

Whatever, I think scum is here

VOTE: Kop

[Fro99er]

I've had a rough day, I don't give a fuck about mafia right now, so here's who's scum. There's no point hiding it now because I wanted to get a read on Kop in case he really was town, but he's not.

I'm in a neighborhood with Kop and Sky right now. Kop is a neighborizer becuase he invited people into his neighborhood the first 3 days. That neighborhood is the penthouse.

Kop has intentionally invited the most towny people possible, to try to get town cred. He invited Wolfie N1, Sky N2 (on recommendation from Wolfie), and me N3 on recommendation from Sky. So basically N1 he asked the conftownie who to invite, and they recommended their most towny, and he invited them. Then did the same N2. Oh how accommodating to the universal townreads...

Not sure why there wasn't a N4 invite, but Kop probably didn't want a hood that big. Anyway, I've seen Aero, as mod, use a scum neighborizer before. Unfortunately (for Aero) it didn't get to happen because scum neighborizer got NK'd N1, so Aero wanted to reuse it is my guess (that game was also multiball with two scum factions, but it was 2+2 because it was a mini normal, not a large).

Kop wants the most towny people in there so they won't scum read him. But he's actually not effectively utilizing his neighborhood (none of us are, but I've been V/LA).

We need to lynch scum today, and it's Kop.

[Fro99er]

Fro99er do you think it'd definitely possible that Kop could have invited a town read scum team player? (Possibly Sky)?

It's possible, but It's lesser priority for me right now than Kop, and see where the night action falls. I think, if scum, Sky is opposite Kop because Kop asked Wolfie who to invite. Wolfie had checked out our neighborhood (with me, Sky, Anna) as inspector N1, and got a solid town read on Sky and recommended Sky to Kop. So I think Kop was being accomodating to Wolfie N2, who was all but conftown. Maybe he got lucky and Wolfie recommended his buddy, but I have a hard time believing it. That doesn't matter much now anyway, because if Sky is scum, she's scum (I still think she's town, but I'm getting paranoia about her now).

We need to flip Kop, and see how the night action plays out.

[Fro99er]

At this point, I'm unsure why Sky still wants to keep the penthouse secret. We're in a dire situation with 8 alive, and likely 3 scum left. Right now town needs all the information it can get, and Kop and Sky want to be secretive. I don't get it.

[Fro99er]

Ann what do you think about my last post?
Nos what do you think the current setup is?
What ever happened to the penthouse?

Lets talk about something people.

Also, this flipped my read on you. You have no reason as scum to wonder about the penthouse. Even more reason why Kop is scum.

[Fro99er]

Also Kop said this (paraphrasing) in the neighborhood PT

"I want to keep our neighbor PT (penthouse) private so that scum don't take out confirm towns, giving them less place to hide. If we're not killed, they won't be able to hide"

That's such scum BS. Why is he assuming myself and sky are conftowns? He shows NO town paranoia there. None. It's like he wants to make a "conftown" bloc of me, sky, and him, and ride that out. Fuck that.

[Fro99er]

i find it unlikely that SilverWolf would flip scum

What?

[Fro99er]

Lapsa, silver wolf is dead town.

[Fro99er]

Lapsa looks ready too pounce on myself, nos, mah, and sky with those posts. But not Kop.

Noted.

[Fro99er]

Correct.

If she's scum, she's scum. Can't decide werewolf or mafia in that scenario, but doesn't matter as long as we lynch scum. Which is why Kop goes down today and we sort the rest out after night actions (after Kop and sky speak of course...and Anna and GM too. I want to hear their thoughts)

[Fro99er]

3x ninja'd on that.

[Fro99er]

Lapsa no thoughts on my post?

[Fro99er]

Lapsa no thoughts on my post?

2981 where I outed the penthouse.

[Fro99er]

So that's what your basing false evidence on? Seriously? That's total nonsensical bullcrap. If that was going to be a case, for every neighbourizer role that Aero puts in his game I'm going to lynch that slot because of what you said. No game is the same game as before, roles may be the same, alignments are different.

You realize that isn't the entirety of my case. In fact, it's the minority. You're picking the wrong parts to argue, because its the easy part to attack.

[Fro99er]

2. On Frogger outing: meh. I'm not super convinced by 'but mod meta' and 'he's not been using the thread wisely'. Mods can change up their meta just like anyone else, and I don't think Kop would necessarily know how to use a Neighbour thread to its fullest. Hell, I don't even know how to do that half the time. And asking the people you've neighbourised who you should get next? That's definitely something I would do if I was out of my depth (which is pretty much always).

Seriously...mod meta isn't my case. It's a supporting item.

[Fro99er]

I dont even know what your other two points are

[Fro99er]

I dont even know what your other two points are

2. On Frogger outing: meh.

I'm not super convinced by

'but mod meta' and

'he's not been using the thread wisely'.

Mods can change up their meta just like anyone else, and

I don't think Kop would necessarily know how to use a Neighbour thread to its fullest. Hell, I don't even know how to do that half the time.

And asking the people you've neighbourised who you should get next? That's definitely something I would do if I was out of my depth (which is pretty much always).

1 bold, the other italicised

Bolded is speculation. WHY don't you think he'd know how to use a neighborizer role? Explain, instead of just assuming.

Italicized is something you'd do. Why does what you do have any bearing on what he does? How does that refute my point? My point his, he's trying to appease town. I've even pointed out a specific paraphrased quote that serves NO town purpose.

Your defenses of him are really weak. Stop speculating and actually provide something concrete.

[Fro99er]

I trust Lapsa a weird amount right now and I don't know why.

Because you're scum?

[Fro99er]

Anyway werewolf is Kop and so is GM. Mafia is either Lapsa, Mahonster or Sky. I'm not sure which but Sky is least likely.

Anna and Nos are basically conftown in my mind.

Sky, if you think it's not Kop, then who are your scum candidates?

[Fro99er]

VOTE: goodmorning

that push on Nos is ridiculous.

[Fro99er]

No, I'm Town, and Kop is probably Town too, and you should do some better hunting than that, especially if you actually are Mafia (which is even more strongly implied by your certainty on Wolves, like you've been Wolf-hunting, and uncertainty on Mafia, as though you haven't given a single scrap of effort).

No, my certainty on werewolves is that there's two left, and you and Kop make a great werewolf team of two. I can't see how Sky, Mah, or Lapsa would have a scumbuddy still alive. Mah is clearly on a different faction than Red, so he has to be town or mafia, not werewolf. I know sky isn't buddies with Kop or you if she somehow flipped scum, but I still think she's town. Lapsa is harder and I need to iso dig further to figure Lapsa out. I do think he's tried harder here than in Refraction, so I'm not sure if that's a scumtell of his or not.

But your case on me is crap, because it's very clear you and Kop can be a team of two, Mah is on a team of 1 or town, and Sky is on a team of 1 or town.

[Fro99er]

l o l

look at frogger ignoring direct questions to him

so adorbs

So please, enlighten me. Who are the two werewolf and who is mafia.

[Fro99er]

...you think I'd waste time rebutting your case my partner with a wagon on him I couldn't be certain I'd derail?

Oh, you mean this question?

Yes, and you successfully derailed the wagon on your buddy. Congrats.

[Fro99er]

l o l

look at frogger ignoring direct questions to him

so adorbs

This is also a pretty typical scum response. LOL, just going to laugh at frogger and point out he ignored a question instead of, you know, actually scumhunting.

For the record - I typically ignore questions. Just ask Lapsa how many times I ignored Shinobi before finally putting a case on him. I was town.

[Fro99er]

I just had a realization… I wish I wasn't driving

[Fro99er]

and so is Anna.

And you know how I can tell you haven't been paying attention? Because you think Anna is still an option for scum.

Also...ther'es no FUCKING WAY Mahon can be wolves with Red. NONE.

You're reads list is so bad it's obvious you are scum.

Also...wall incoming.

[Fro99er]

Ok, so in Refraction Mafia aero had this setup

13 players:
2 mafia (infrared)
2 werewolf (ultraviolet)

UV side was 1-shot bulletproof and vanilla cop
IR side was 1-shot bulletproof and neighborizer

that was to balance it out with a town consisting of 2 masons, 1 town JOAT, 1 bodyguard. Note the scum sides were balanced with each other too.


Here we have 21 players with town flips of: neighbor inspector, doctor, universal backup (doctor), cop, even night vig, and there's still clearly an odd night vig based on # of flips. how the fuck would it be 3 on 3, with only one power role for each scum faction???

Currently we have 3v3 with:
mafia: Goon and JOAT (investigative)
werewolf: Ascetic (undetectable)

my best guess is Aero has balanced this out with mafia having another power role, and werewolves having one power role and one goon left to flip. So it's likely the neighborizer is NOT town just based on the fact that town would be too powerful and scum would be underpowered and unbalanced with each other. It cannot be that the rest of wolves and mafia are filled with just goons, because that's unbalanced toward wolves with the JOAT unable to investigate the ascetic. Unless it's 3 on 2 (unlikely) or 3v3 but one of the 3 in wolves is a traitor (possible without Fire's investigative, but Fire's investigative rules that out...you'll see in a sec). But what's most probable is 3v3, where Kop is a werewolf power role to balance out the investigative, just like it was in Refraction Mafia, and there's a mafia undetectable.

Maybe Fire really did investigate Mahonster and Mah is godfather. That would explain Fire's crumb, and balance the setup.

All I know is it's impossible for Mah to be wolves (although somehow GM laughably thinks it's possible), but Mah coudl be scum, and Nos cannot be teamed with Ozgin.

It seems most plausible that Kop is werewolves with a buddy (likely GM, I would need to check Lapsa interactions with Kop so not ruling that out), and that Mah is mafia godfather.

Otherwise, it's not 3v3 and instead it's 2v3, but that means the 2 would have to be wolves and 3 would be mafia. In that case, GM is likely wolves anyway for her shitty wolves reads, or again, not ruling out Lapsa.


I for the life of me cannot see a town with:

Doc
Universal Backup (turned doc)
Cop
Neighbor inspector
Neighborizer
even vig
odd vig

with scum having:
Goon, JOAT and ???
Ascetic, ???, ???

It could either be:
Goon, JOAT, Goon
Ascetic, Goon

but that's too powerful for town still.

It could be
Goon, JOAT, unknown scum PR
Ascetic, Goon

but then it's too sided toward mafia over wolves

It could be
Goon, JOAT, undetectable
Ascetic, Goon, neighborizer

which balances with town if we take out neighborizer.


Yeah, basically, Kop is almost confscum in my mind, and GM is hard defending Kop and making impossible claims on who could be wolves by not paying attention, yet trying to say I'm not paying attention.

[Fro99er]

... wait. Is your whole case on me just associatives before flips?

No.

And...I do preflip associatives ALL THE TIME. EVERY GAME. It's a null tell for me, but a very strong scum-tell for others is when other people call me out on it. It's got a very high success rate.

[Fro99er]

I will only lynch Kop or GM today. I think the safest lynch is Kop, because I cannot see a plausible balance with neighborizer as town. It's too town sided otherwise.

GM is a good lynch as well. Mah could be mafia faction, but I'd rather pursue that idea later after we see flips, because it will help with completing setup spec more to know what's going on with Kop and GM.

[Fro99er]

Yeah...I went from the most town, to the most scum by GM. And that was only AFTER I made that post about Kop.....

[Fro99er]

I'm not saying it's Scum, I'm saying it's dumb.

Don't care. Scum always tells me it's dumb. I do it every game anyway. Not gonna stop.

[Fro99er]

It has variable utility for Scum but is 99% likely useless.

This is factually wrong. It is a FACT that people tend to townread neighborizers.

18 neighborizers (16 town and 2 scum) have been used in these 90 recent setups, and not a single one of them was lynched. It has HUGE scum utility to always be universally townread, because the wiki says they are usually town.

[Fro99er]

froggor, that's just faulty argument

you can't argue that scum neighborizer is of great utility cause that's like insta-conftown yet use that as a scumtell

that just proves uselessness

that's not my argument. My argument is it helps balance the game, and that Kop and GM are scum

who do you think is werewolf, who do you think is mafia?

[Fro99er]

GM, you're gonna need to try again on who you think is Wolves, because you whiffed on two of them. Anna's ocnftown, and Mah cannot be with Red. Also, scum reading Nos is laughable.

You're also gonna need to try again on Mafia, because I'm town.

[Fro99er]

You're also gonna need to try again on Mafia, because I'm town.

If you were scum, you would be mafia not Werewolf.

Why?

Because Oz "cleared" me? Why would he risk clearing his buddy after his other buddy (TSO) got a guilty? Vig me if you need to Anna. I'm town. Just make sure we lynch actual scum today so we don't lose.

[Fro99er]

Anna's ocnftown,

Since when?

Since she claimed vig to me and Sky and suddenly BOTH sky and town suddenly stopped wanting to lynch Anna. It's been quite obvious and I've been hinting we still have an odd night vig. She's not getting lynched today, and this will almost surely be her last odd night vig, so I don't mind outing it now. We know she'll get her kill tonight.