Gay Dance! [Donezo]

[chennisden]

Fire, your just paranoid that my tone literally shifts every few hours. I'm town.

I mean ur tone shifts but its a natural shift, the problem i am having is that its too close to what I am thinking. We literally never agreed in last game as far as I remember? I feel u could have a natural tone in the way you approach scum, the theory of how i think u might go about scum is just have a natural rapport with whoever ur talking about at the time and mix in ur opinions in with others to make it seamless.

how far of am i to how u think u would play scum?

Ask chennis I guess. I feel like anything I answer here would be WIFOM.

Idk if I have a good response to this rn

I mislynched you as town in a newbie and correctly lynched you in Grey Flag

like i dunno, I feel like I'm the type of person who will consistently scumread you regardless of your alignment, so it's a bit odd that I'm not.

[chennisden]

sure, shiro.

[chennisden]

STOP

[chennisden]

hi ank

[chennisden]

And Cheeky isn't just "strongly townread" unless that's the joke

[chennisden]

Mafia is hard

[chennisden]

Sounds like someone loses if I hit endgame

[chennisden]

Y not nom urself for endgame

Agreed

[chennisden]

Sounds like someone loses if I hit endgame

Yes. An entire faction. That's the point of "endgame".

i dont think you got the joke

[chennisden]

Hi pie

[chennisden]

Gif you isnt the endgame pair

[chennisden]

Ru happy

[chennisden]

@everyone scumreading me answer this please

Why would I play this way as scum? I'm playing in a way where it's pretty much impossible for me to turn around and say "lol ACTUALLY we're gonna lynch {endgame pair} instead of

us

," and expect it to work, so that means I

can't

be the scum win-con. I.e. I'm not the strongest member in the scumteam and I'm just here to propel a deepwolf slot into endgame.

But that comes with a couple of problems. That means out of {Bitmap GiF} {Sakura Pie} there's someone I'm trying to propel to endgame because I think I've made it VERY CLEAR that's the ideal endgame. Only Sakura has said something of the sort about Pie. And let's say you think that, sure. But if I have a

stronger scum partner

I don't approach this game the way I do, looking for townreads. My job should be to get some shallow towncredit, case a slot or two as scum, get some mislynches, and cast a lot of paranoia on some locktown read and get them lynched, and then my scumpartner can be the one to call me out and get me lynched, then scum goes home for victory. Or, the easier thing is I can just not post and let my scumbuddies carry me, then just make sure I don't spew them scum.

It's very clear that's not what's happening and I dunno, I think there's no real reason for me to pretend to solve the game as scum to the degree I'm doing right now. The safer option would be to lurk, eventually get caught up in PoE, and in the process of dying spew somebody scum so town can mislynch town by themselves. Right now as scum I think I'd be really trying to push an angle on {Fb Oka} {Ausuka Vecna} {Shiro} or {Sakura Hana}. I guess you can say "wow chennis has grown some self awareness as scum" but that's not at all possible. What am I supposed to do, magically get good at scum when last time I rolled scum, I nearly (1) threw the entire game (2) spewed RC scum (3) forced the team to bus Fuscosco for towncredit and it literally took a townthrow of epic proportions to bring the game back for scum.

Why would I do this as scum? A lot of people that I can theoretically mislynch ALSO HAPPEN to be the same people preventing this town from mislynching me. Why would I line my cards up like this as scum? Whereas as town it makes a lot of sense for me to do this - it gives me reason to actually read the game and not be on the lol mislynch. I guess I could get away with this type of thing in the Newbie queue, but

it's pretty obvious the newbie queue and this game are a far cry apart.

I dunno, I kinda

expect

people to know that I'm town when (1) if I'm scum I've completely cornered myself (2) the actions I've been taking would be actively detrimental to my scumteam regardless of the strength of my partners (3) this doesn't line up with the few scumgames I've played with at all (see Mini 2070) and (4) my approach here is very similar to my non-Newbie towngames and also has some degree of similarity to my Newbie towngames.
-
Now if a deepwolf has gotten into the towncore I'd be a good mislynch to save to LyLo or something. All you have to do is say "I kinda wanna lynch chennis" and then not lynch me, and say "wow

everyone is scumreading him

" (which would be a terrible mischaracterization as well) and ask "Why haven't we lynched this guy yet? He's obviously scum" and then bam, the deepwolf brings the game home. And there have been attempts to cast paranoia on me or line me up as a mislynch. Yet my responses to this are all in good faith. If I'm scum I don't even have to pretend to sort you. I can just say "wow this guy is scum" and tunnel them a bit and let the rest of town brush me off as "shit town" with terrible reads while I just sit in the ignored corner until my scumbuddy needs some free towncredit. If I was the scum wincon I would've tried to steal Pie or Ausuka. And if I wasn't the scum wincon then my scumbuddies would tell me to shut the hell up. I haven't tried to steal Pie or Ausuka and I sure as hell haven't shut up, much to the detriment of your sanity.

I dunno. At the end of the day it's going to be obvious who we bring to endgame (Pie + GiF) but I guess it's just a pride issue about not being the shit townie who gets mislynched D1. I'm kind of sick of being scum's free mislynch that's used to win the game when it's clear or should be clear that I'm town and that's part of why I sign up for a lot of Newbie games. I've been trying to use presence-of-force this game and I don't think there's any reason I do that as scum, because no matter if my partners are weaker or stronger than me I don't play the way I do, unless you want to take the stance that there's scum in my endgame proposal. Even then that's really reachy and making a ton of invalid assumptions that lead to an invalid conclusion makes no sense.

[chennisden]

I guess the same applies to Bitmap and GiF and to a large extent Pie as well.

[chennisden]

so why don't you actually find a

reason

I could be scum? oh that's right, there aren't any

[chennisden]

fb i've been treating this paranoia on me completely in good faith

it serves me much better to say that you're trying to discredit me to advance scum win-con.

[chennisden]

believe it or not, but you can play scum however the hell u want depending on what ur going for, and in this setup u don't really need to go to endgame urself. So of course u don't need to ensure u go there. So you don't need to play the deep wolf game urself.

you can push a end game pairing there instead. especially if it has ur teammates in it, but ur more likely going to push a town pair into that position instead to obfuscate that pair on ur own flip..

But if I'm not the one who wants to go to endgame then I'm either (1) pushing scum to endgame or (2) pushing town to endgame

If I'm trying to push scum to endgame you have to believe (1) scum is in the pairs I'm pushing (really)? and (2) that the way I'm doing it remotely helps me

[chennisden]

Why did it take you for pie to come here to towncase yourself?

I've been writing this post for a while now.

[chennisden]

Okay even if I'm going for that

Why?

Pie/Sakura will endgame with or without my input and it was pretty clear

Do you think pie would need me to push her to endgame? I guess what I'm getting at is that I wouldn't need to push the scum win-con in that way when town would do it for me anyways?

[chennisden]

this is @ "u and pie are scum"

[chennisden]

that's blatantly not what chenn is doing this game

yeah, he is trying to survive to endgame. I don't believe for a mintue when he postures around "ohh i am going to be eliminated, I won't need to be focused on" or anything of the like.

How do you think that is townie where he is putting up that charade and then goes on the super defensive about how people are reading him when he is giving us two completely separate narratives on it.

So you think I'm the scum wincondition

Nice

[chennisden]

Like chennisden is either scum desperate.

Or town who doesn't know what the fuck he wants and is just getting thrown off by everything going on around him.

Like

If you're gonna treat my slot as the scum wincondition

It really doesn't make any sense to then push me as scum under the assumption I'm not the wincondition

[chennisden]

I'm not gonna give people room to push untrue bullshit on me regardless of their alignment

Not getting mislynched is much more important as town than people give it credit for

[chennisden]

Like chennisden is either scum desperate.

Or town who doesn't know what the fuck he wants and is just getting thrown off by everything going on around him.

Like

If you're gonna treat my slot as the scum wincondition

It really doesn't make any sense to then push me as scum under the assumption I'm not the wincondition

???

By that I mean

Don't say "chenn is trying to endgame so he's scum" then propose a scenario where I'm (1) scum and (2) not trying to endgame

[chennisden]

i do

if you look at my early games it literally consists of me being mislynched, either D1 or D2. and usually as the first town lynch.

it's not fun.

[chennisden]

^ yeah

[chennisden]

Why are the numbers messed up, Firecringer?

[chennisden]

Nvm it was on my side

[chennisden]

Post numbers in your quote

[chennisden]

thanks

[chennisden]

Wtf happened

[chennisden]

More like: when we get a replacement

[chennisden]

When we find a replacement or when deadline runs out (i.e. when deadline runs out)

[chennisden]

Sakura I think it's for the best if you work out why you think I'm scum, the only way that's possible, and then why it makes no sense to play around me the way you guys are

[chennisden]

Like, don't just "give up."

[chennisden]

I dunno.

[chennisden]

page 69 top

[chennisden]

My scum meta is

(1) half-hearted
(2) randomly tunnely
(3) very flip floppy

Whereas my town meta is

(1) jokey
(2) when I make a serious post my Alignment is Kinda Obvious
(3) I fight very hard to make sure Everyone Knows I'm Town

Like, let's talk scumgames. We have a Newbie (my first game and outdated), Mini 2070 (first relevant scumgame, though again bad), Restless Spirits (compromised by RAS, but obvious Scum was Gonna Win) and Gameshow Mafia (thanks for the carry Ig).

In ALL OF THEM, I have had (1) halfhearted/random tunnels. (2) I pushed or helped push a lot of bad stuff through and (3) I had a ton of weird reversals. I guess I'll link to the games where I fill out the checklist.

MINI 2070:
(1) viewtopic.php?p=10877022#p10877022, viewtopic.php?p=10877026#p10877026
(2) viewtopic.php?p=10868407#p10868407
(3) viewtopic.php?p=10884151#p10884151

RESTLESS SPIRITS:
(1) viewtopic.php?p=11031228#p11031228
(2) viewtopic.php?p=11031214#p11031214
(3) viewtopic.php?p=11023298#p11023298

GAMESHOW MAFIA:
(1) viewtopic.php?p=10923743#p10923743
(2) viewtopic.php?p=10898847#p10898847
(3) viewtopic.php?p=10901923#p10901923

As scum part of the difference is that I'm happy with the amount of towncredit that it takes to lead town off of a cliff. As town I'm not satisfied until the entire lobby reads me as town. I guess the exception is Grey Flag Nightless but the game was over too quick and the scum were obvious anyway. I guess I'd be like "here's a cliff now jump off of it" and then my partners just take advantage of the chaos that I cause and then easily claim town leader after they lead on me. It's what happened in Gameshow Mafia. It's what I tried to do in Mini 2070. It was unnecessary in Mini 2077 (because the scumteam already won by that point).
--
Having shallow townreads on me that scum can easily discredit only helps scum. I guess Firebringer would say something like "stop flailing and catch scum" but I don't think that's really accurate. (1) I usually demand more room than this to work with as town. (2) This is a

townhunting game.

(3) It's kinda pointless during Pre-dance anyway and (4) I did the only thing I can at this point (choosing Jingle over Croag). Like I guess you can disagree with the choice but I mean the intent is obvious.

And it's not like I'm cherrypicking examples. I literally did a 2-3 minute skim for each of those games to find that. I don't think the same is remotely applicable here.
--
Now I guess let's look at my town Meta. The most recent non-trivial non-Newbie game was Mini 2081 (at least non trivial when I replaced in).

Here's the jokey part: viewtopic.php?p=11040738#p11040738 (I guess you can look down a couple posts too for more examples)
Here's the part where I try to make the whole lobby townread me: viewtopic.php?p=11042874#p11042874

I guess my alignment wasn't Really That Obvious when I posted in that game. But I mean if you look at some of my latest Newbies I kinda do try to strongarm the entire town to townread me. As scum I think I've gotten enough towncredit to lead town off a cliff a little and do the rest of the things I usually do. I could just call Some Slot scum and be done with it, say "Oops! They were town!" and then be done with it, and then rinse and repeat as scum. I also just don't do this kinda thing as scum.
--
I think I've covered all my bases. I've pulled up examples of where my general scum play differs from this, where my general town play lines up with this, and how I'm not pushing the scum wincon. (Re: the last point. I'm either the wincon of the team but then I should've taken pie/Ausuka or I'm not the wincon of the team in which case this is pointless if not actively detrimental to my team because I can push town off a cliff already, with a bit of effort.) I don't really think general discredits should be given any merit like "oh but he's flailing." ANd I guess Post 1440 really encompasses everything wrong with the mentality of "well you could do something

else

." No I really can't. If I'm not trying to endgame I need to push an agenda and set up my partners to endgame. The cognitive dissonance is when you think "chennis is def scum pushing an agenda" then you think "but I'ma be ok with the agenda or variants to what he's pushing" AND think that "Look at this agenda that he definitely needs to push." (Hint: I don't need to push it.) I guess if you could come up with some specific stuff that's bothering you I could address it better.
--
I guess scumreading wise I might be a bit lost but I don't think you're much better off if you're still scumreading me despite (1) me being quite transparently town and (2) you having nowhere to go regardless of what I flip. So Firebringer I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to tell me "stop whining and get some reads" when the only one you have is completely terrible. You're thinking "oh Pie might be his partner" but that's a deluded solve and it's contributing needless and wrong paranoia on her slot as well. Me doing these things is kinda risking her endgame status so unless you think we're conspiring with our third scumbuddy in GiF/Bitmap to endgame it really doesn't make sense either. And if you think the scumteam is Chennis/Pie/{GiF/Bitmap} then you should take the tinfoil hat off. Is Chennis/Pie/{GiF/Bitmap} the hill you want to die on? Or do you want to reconsider your reads on Chennis/Pie?
--
As town, I care about being townread a lot. I think it's kind of obvious by my recent games especially this one, where I pushed almost exclusively myself as town. The only real scumread I had was wrong and tunnel-y and I broke out of it eventually. Really my towngame is just obvtowning, pushing to get the room I need, and making a couple of good choices that win the game for town. I think one of the most important things as town is not getting mislynched and that's why recently a lot of people have been able to locktown me easily, especially with my distinctive towngame and my less-than-adequate scumgame. I think it's really telling that some people are determined to tunnel me without even attempting to reconsider. GiF has asked a few of you to read Mini 2070 and from the looks of it you clearly haven't. Either you're scum or just approaching my slot in really terrible faith. Please stop.
--
This is the hardest I've towntelled in a while and a lot of people are willing to locktown me for a lot less. Maybe try casting the tinfoil aside?

I guess in summary,

are we still talking like chenn isn't obvtown

[chennisden]

And I guess it doesn't help that I'm being angleshot over some really weird things. "This coincidentally came after Pie's wallpost" - well gee! Here you go, something that didn't coincidentally come after Pie's wallpost!

And "Pie wants Chennis to endgame" is really really unrealistic. The easy solution is to just let town sing "lalalala" while Pie just goes to endgame. And I dunno, for me to be scum involves me being partners with a lot more than two people. Which is impossible.

[chennisden]

That's her point

[chennisden]

Real life mafia is f2f mafia

[chennisden]

Bars

[chennisden]

Whisper to each other with those weird parabola things

[chennisden]

The sewers

[chennisden]

Hopefully

[chennisden]

Pie/Sakura and Chen/Bingle ends the game almost always though

[chennisden]

Letting shiro pair with the IC wasn't very wise of us huh

[chennisden]

Like pairing me with the IC is still bad but

[chennisden]

when I played we barely got 10 (enough to host jk+doc and rb with a mod)

[chennisden]

u cant

[chennisden]

ha gay

[chennisden]

Letting shiro pair with the IC wasn't very wise of us huh

How is Shiro scummy

When did I say this

[chennisden]

Btw 1723 isn't saying that

[chennisden]

no u

[chennisden]

HOW CAN WE SOLVE THIS GAME?

[chennisden]

I think we're collectively inspiring nobody to replace in

[chennisden]

Um

People reading this

Do u want a free win

[chennisden]

I WON'T LYNCH YOU D1 IF YOU REPLACE IN

(can someone replace in pretty please?)

[chennisden]

I'll write a wallpost on how you're the best mafia player

[chennisden]

lol u

[chennisden]

Why?

[chennisden]

I mean, me too, but you probably have antiquated reasons.

[chennisden]

oh! what a pleasant surprise.

[chennisden]

i thought it'd be one of those "Creature is a free read" things.

[chennisden]

which he isn't remotely

[chennisden]

oh nice

[chennisden]

because nobody would willingly replace into a scumslot?

[chennisden]

oh, i get it

[chennisden]

let's do this.

[chennisden]

lets not give nim more work

[chennisden]

(1) sheep chennis
(2) ???
(3) win

[chennisden]

(2) steal bingle's underbants and make profit

[chennisden]

you should know this as both alignments, bitmap.

[chennisden]

this game is hard

[chennisden]

pie/sakura is town like 99% of the time

but i think scum plans to go for the discredit

[chennisden]

It's not really because it's my pair that I proposed it is what I'm saying. But I'm town and I'd be very surprised if Sakura is scum here, so.

*shrug*

I don't think it's hard to go for "lol sakura/pie is town gg no re" at least not for me.

But idk there are some people doing stuff around your slot that makes it hard

[chennisden]

hard to push to endgame

[chennisden]

bleh

I guess what I'm trying to say is solving the game is the easier part

You have to get people to follow it and that's hard

[chennisden]

And Kirari might actually be scum

Oh dear

I don't like Kirari btw.

I'm playing to be an endgame pairing until I have very good reason not to

And atm you're my top gentleman scumread kirari

Kirari vanishing is a red flag

Ankamius
CheekyTeeky
GuyInFreezer
Golden Robster
pienyan
chennisden
Vecna
Firebringer
Bingle
Sakura Hana
Bitmap
OkaPoka
Shiro
croag
Ausuka
Gamma Emerald
Kirari Momobami

I have a bizarre amount of townreads I'm noticing

Kirari + Gamma
Vecna + Ausuka
FireB + OkaP
Anka + GRob
Sakura + PieN
Cheeky + Shiro
GIF +. bmp
Chenn + Bingle

Kirari + Gamma
FireB + OkaP
Cheeky + Shiro
Vecna + Ausuka
GIF +. Bmp
Sakura + PieN
Anka + GRob
Chenn + Bingle

Probably closer to that

[chennisden]

i mean, you could've easily answered that yourself, firecringer.

[chennisden]

realized that Kirai once again flipped out at being wrongly sr.

who the fuck scumread kirai?

who the fuck had a read on kirai?

I know who she is and the only thing I read was that she was very upset about Ank not being her partner, so I just assumed she didn’t think Ank tr her. Am I wrong?

she left because she didn't get a partner she wanted. thats my understanding of her leaving.

dare i say it

gay

[chennisden]

This is a spicy entrance

[chennisden]

I don't think Kirari was obviously town by any means

And I mean I guess you might

know

if it is but I mean you'd always say that

[chennisden]

this is far from spicy.

Spicy NOT EQUAL TO good, Firecringer

[chennisden]

Spicy means this is gonna advance the game a lot

[chennisden]

I don't really care about Nim's second or third posts

The first one is the most interesting and most scummy

[chennisden]

nim ask out gamma

[chennisden]

I don't really care about Nim's second or third posts

The first one is the most interesting and most scummy

???

Are you on crack Chenn? I think I may have read one of your posts, where you did that self-meta thing and thought you might be town but this read is seriously whack.

This had better not be GS all over again. If you’re actually scum here, I will catch you, bank on it.

Describing it as "self-meta" is completely missing the point

[chennisden]

you should bold it.

[chennisden]

For mod purposes ya

[chennisden]

I do have reason to townread gamma tbh
But I don't like the reason

Which is...?

Since you were around I would've actually stated out the reasoning already if I wanted post it.
I'm gonna think about it a bit before I decide to post it.

Not what I was expecting tbh

[chennisden]

@everyone scumreading me answer this please

Why would I play this way as scum? I'm playing in a way where it's pretty much impossible for me to turn around and say "lol ACTUALLY we're gonna lynch {endgame pair} instead of

us

," and expect it to work, so that means I

can't

be the scum win-con. I.e. I'm not the strongest member in the scumteam and I'm just here to propel a deepwolf slot into endgame.

But that comes with a couple of problems. That means out of {Bitmap GiF} {Sakura Pie} there's someone I'm trying to propel to endgame because I think I've made it VERY CLEAR that's the ideal endgame. Only Sakura has said something of the sort about Pie. And let's say you think that, sure. But if I have a

stronger scum partner

I don't approach this game the way I do, looking for townreads. My job should be to get some shallow towncredit, case a slot or two as scum, get some mislynches, and cast a lot of paranoia on some locktown read and get them lynched, and then my scumpartner can be the one to call me out and get me lynched, then scum goes home for victory. Or, the easier thing is I can just not post and let my scumbuddies carry me, then just make sure I don't spew them scum.

It's very clear that's not what's happening and I dunno, I think there's no real reason for me to pretend to solve the game as scum to the degree I'm doing right now. The safer option would be to lurk, eventually get caught up in PoE, and in the process of dying spew somebody scum so town can mislynch town by themselves. Right now as scum I think I'd be really trying to push an angle on {Fb Oka} {Ausuka Vecna} {Shiro} or {Sakura Hana}. I guess you can say "wow chennis has grown some self awareness as scum" but that's not at all possible. What am I supposed to do, magically get good at scum when last time I rolled scum, I nearly (1) threw the entire game (2) spewed RC scum (3) forced the team to bus Fuscosco for towncredit and it literally took a townthrow of epic proportions to bring the game back for scum.

Why would I do this as scum? A lot of people that I can theoretically mislynch ALSO HAPPEN to be the same people preventing this town from mislynching me. Why would I line my cards up like this as scum? Whereas as town it makes a lot of sense for me to do this - it gives me reason to actually read the game and not be on the lol mislynch. I guess I could get away with this type of thing in the Newbie queue, but

it's pretty obvious the newbie queue and this game are a far cry apart.

I dunno, I kinda

expect

people to know that I'm town when (1) if I'm scum I've completely cornered myself (2) the actions I've been taking would be actively detrimental to my scumteam regardless of the strength of my partners (3) this doesn't line up with the few scumgames I've played with at all (see Mini 2070) and (4) my approach here is very similar to my non-Newbie towngames and also has some degree of similarity to my Newbie towngames.
-
Now if a deepwolf has gotten into the towncore I'd be a good mislynch to save to LyLo or something. All you have to do is say "I kinda wanna lynch chennis" and then not lynch me, and say "wow

everyone is scumreading him

" (which would be a terrible mischaracterization as well) and ask "Why haven't we lynched this guy yet? He's obviously scum" and then bam, the deepwolf brings the game home. And there have been attempts to cast paranoia on me or line me up as a mislynch. Yet my responses to this are all in good faith. If I'm scum I don't even have to pretend to sort you. I can just say "wow this guy is scum" and tunnel them a bit and let the rest of town brush me off as "shit town" with terrible reads while I just sit in the ignored corner until my scumbuddy needs some free towncredit. If I was the scum wincon I would've tried to steal Pie or Ausuka. And if I wasn't the scum wincon then my scumbuddies would tell me to shut the hell up. I haven't tried to steal Pie or Ausuka and I sure as hell haven't shut up, much to the detriment of your sanity.

I dunno. At the end of the day it's going to be obvious who we bring to endgame (Pie + GiF) but I guess it's just a pride issue about not being the shit townie who gets mislynched D1. I'm kind of sick of being scum's free mislynch that's used to win the game when it's clear or should be clear that I'm town and that's part of why I sign up for a lot of Newbie games. I've been trying to use presence-of-force this game and I don't think there's any reason I do that as scum, because no matter if my partners are weaker or stronger than me I don't play the way I do, unless you want to take the stance that there's scum in my endgame proposal. Even then that's really reachy and making a ton of invalid assumptions that lead to an invalid conclusion makes no sense.

sigh, sakura

[chennisden]

My scum meta is

(1) half-hearted
(2) randomly tunnely
(3) very flip floppy

Whereas my town meta is

(1) jokey
(2) when I make a serious post my Alignment is Kinda Obvious
(3) I fight very hard to make sure Everyone Knows I'm Town

Like, let's talk scumgames. We have a Newbie (my first game and outdated), Mini 2070 (first relevant scumgame, though again bad), Restless Spirits (compromised by RAS, but obvious Scum was Gonna Win) and Gameshow Mafia (thanks for the carry Ig).

In ALL OF THEM, I have had (1) halfhearted/random tunnels. (2) I pushed or helped push a lot of bad stuff through and (3) I had a ton of weird reversals. I guess I'll link to the games where I fill out the checklist.

MINI 2070:
(1) viewtopic.php?p=10877022#p10877022, viewtopic.php?p=10877026#p10877026
(2) viewtopic.php?p=10868407#p10868407
(3) viewtopic.php?p=10884151#p10884151

RESTLESS SPIRITS:
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As scum part of the difference is that I'm happy with the amount of towncredit that it takes to lead town off of a cliff. As town I'm not satisfied until the entire lobby reads me as town. I guess the exception is Grey Flag Nightless but the game was over too quick and the scum were obvious anyway. I guess I'd be like "here's a cliff now jump off of it" and then my partners just take advantage of the chaos that I cause and then easily claim town leader after they lead on me. It's what happened in Gameshow Mafia. It's what I tried to do in Mini 2070. It was unnecessary in Mini 2077 (because the scumteam already won by that point).
--
Having shallow townreads on me that scum can easily discredit only helps scum. I guess Firebringer would say something like "stop flailing and catch scum" but I don't think that's really accurate. (1) I usually demand more room than this to work with as town. (2) This is a

townhunting game.

(3) It's kinda pointless during Pre-dance anyway and (4) I did the only thing I can at this point (choosing Jingle over Croag). Like I guess you can disagree with the choice but I mean the intent is obvious.

And it's not like I'm cherrypicking examples. I literally did a 2-3 minute skim for each of those games to find that. I don't think the same is remotely applicable here.
--
Now I guess let's look at my town Meta. The most recent non-trivial non-Newbie game was Mini 2081 (at least non trivial when I replaced in).

Here's the jokey part: viewtopic.php?p=11040738#p11040738 (I guess you can look down a couple posts too for more examples)
Here's the part where I try to make the whole lobby townread me: viewtopic.php?p=11042874#p11042874

I guess my alignment wasn't Really That Obvious when I posted in that game. But I mean if you look at some of my latest Newbies I kinda do try to strongarm the entire town to townread me. As scum I think I've gotten enough towncredit to lead town off a cliff a little and do the rest of the things I usually do. I could just call Some Slot scum and be done with it, say "Oops! They were town!" and then be done with it, and then rinse and repeat as scum. I also just don't do this kinda thing as scum.
--
I think I've covered all my bases. I've pulled up examples of where my general scum play differs from this, where my general town play lines up with this, and how I'm not pushing the scum wincon. (Re: the last point. I'm either the wincon of the team but then I should've taken pie/Ausuka or I'm not the wincon of the team in which case this is pointless if not actively detrimental to my team because I can push town off a cliff already, with a bit of effort.) I don't really think general discredits should be given any merit like "oh but he's flailing." ANd I guess Post 1440 really encompasses everything wrong with the mentality of "well you could do something

else

." No I really can't. If I'm not trying to endgame I need to push an agenda and set up my partners to endgame. The cognitive dissonance is when you think "chennis is def scum pushing an agenda" then you think "but I'ma be ok with the agenda or variants to what he's pushing" AND think that "Look at this agenda that he definitely needs to push." (Hint: I don't need to push it.) I guess if you could come up with some specific stuff that's bothering you I could address it better.
--
I guess scumreading wise I might be a bit lost but I don't think you're much better off if you're still scumreading me despite (1) me being quite transparently town and (2) you having nowhere to go regardless of what I flip. So Firebringer I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to tell me "stop whining and get some reads" when the only one you have is completely terrible. You're thinking "oh Pie might be his partner" but that's a deluded solve and it's contributing needless and wrong paranoia on her slot as well. Me doing these things is kinda risking her endgame status so unless you think we're conspiring with our third scumbuddy in GiF/Bitmap to endgame it really doesn't make sense either. And if you think the scumteam is Chennis/Pie/{GiF/Bitmap} then you should take the tinfoil hat off. Is Chennis/Pie/{GiF/Bitmap} the hill you want to die on? Or do you want to reconsider your reads on Chennis/Pie?
--
As town, I care about being townread a lot. I think it's kind of obvious by my recent games especially this one, where I pushed almost exclusively myself as town. The only real scumread I had was wrong and tunnel-y and I broke out of it eventually. Really my towngame is just obvtowning, pushing to get the room I need, and making a couple of good choices that win the game for town. I think one of the most important things as town is not getting mislynched and that's why recently a lot of people have been able to locktown me easily, especially with my distinctive towngame and my less-than-adequate scumgame. I think it's really telling that some people are determined to tunnel me without even attempting to reconsider. GiF has asked a few of you to read Mini 2070 and from the looks of it you clearly haven't. Either you're scum or just approaching my slot in really terrible faith. Please stop.
--
This is the hardest I've towntelled in a while and a lot of people are willing to locktown me for a lot less. Maybe try casting the tinfoil aside?

I guess in summary,

are we still talking like chenn isn't obvtown

and this.

[chennisden]

GiF with the memes

[chennisden]

Pie Bitmap Freezer

[chennisden]

Btw flower meaning for butterfly weed is "leave me"

This is the memeeeee

[chennisden]

Btw whoever telling him to iso chen
Y'all are all monsters

300 posts, not that bad

[chennisden]

Chen ISO is probably the most cringiest ISO in this game

no u

[chennisden]

Cringiest town - GiF

[chennisden]

wanna do a "fake night"

where anyone >100 posts doesnt post for 24 hrs

Hypocrite.

[chennisden]

ow

[chennisden]

Ank do you have a read on your partner yet

[chennisden]

GuyInFreezer & Bitmap
Golden Robster & Ankamius
Firebringer & OkaPoka
Gamma Emerald & Nimueh
With the addendum Shiro could easily be scum, but lynching her pair is dumb.

Why GiF Bitmap?

[chennisden]

Hey guys

[chennisden]

Uhh talk to me about Ausuka Ank? I think she's towny, but I can't say the same about Vecna with much confidence.

[chennisden]

Do you have a read on your partner

[chennisden]

I guess its kinda obvious why croag hasn't posted

[chennisden]

imo I was kinda obvious in GS. I guess RC did give me more room to obv scum than usual but

[chennisden]

My job D1 was to try and push dumb shit

I'm usually a divisive slot as scum and I don't think I am this time

[chennisden]

Are these even ordered

[chennisden]

So Pie is obv town lol

[chennisden]

End this torture

[chennisden]

Thats constant Bingle boy

[chennisden]

Linear is a line

y=mx+b

But our sanity is represented by y=0

[chennisden]

Thats like calling a linear equation Quadratic

it isnt

[chennisden]

Leaving early does deny scum some info I guess

[chennisden]

Leaving early does deny scum some info I guess

Do you mean town?

I am talking about scums shot

Yeah its still antitown

[chennisden]

Woah Vecna

[chennisden]

Why are you pushing for an Ank lynch on the basis of uncertainty about Ank?

[chennisden]

Lmao welcome to my world when anyone claims to be able to read me

I cant read you but I still think theres a decent chance youre scum here.

Ill change my mind if you townread me. Pocketing me is ok. Scumreading me as potential scum is just not nice.

I guess this is more what I'm talking about Ank

[chennisden]

I feel like Ank is really town here?

in other news I'm beginning to run out of scum candidates

Yeah it's transparently obvious

[chennisden]

Ausuka, what are your thoughts on the Oka/FB pair

[chennisden]

But are they?

[chennisden]

I guess that given you're willing to TR a lot of people for a lot less, focusing on Ank being scum in some off chance isn't productive. Or am I interpreting it wrong?

[chennisden]

Also why are people suggesting killing Bitmap/GiF d1 again???

[chennisden]

Like, I don't get the progression of "GiF/Bitmap endgame" vs "GiF/Bitmap in our D1 lynch pool." They haven't been playing much differently. Has it been because more people have been towning it up?

[chennisden]

Oh last thing

I'm playing more selfishly this time so I'm going to want a guy that I'm pretty sure is town

And why did you end up taking GROB?

[chennisden]

^ that last question was stupid

[chennisden]

Ank is town and she's a huge win vector for town

[chennisden]

But are they?

If anything if there's scum in that I think it may be Nimueh trying to wk GE. And on that count we just wait and see how she continues playing. I think it's very well possible that both are indeed town pairs.

I guess that given you're willing to TR a lot of people for a lot less, focusing on Ank being scum in some off chance isn't productive. Or am I interpreting it wrong?

It's not really just that (or BOP); I think she's trying to keep both pairs in the lynch pool past their shelf lives in a way that seems disingenuous.

So is Ank in your lynchpool or your watchlist?

[chennisden]

Okay.

[chennisden]

Who do you want to lynch come dayphase?

Probably in the Yaois.

[chennisden]

Target locked. Initiating combat.

[chennisden]

Hi

[chennisden]

Chen picked bingle right
The only way chen is scum is if he's scum with bingle at this point

Yeah, I picked Bingle.

Also the only way I'm scum is with Pie and there aren't that many scum, so.

[chennisden]

Lesbians
Shiro
Chennisden
croag
CheekyTeeky
Bingle

shouldn't this mean that Shiro is conf town because shiro could have dance with croag to ensure cheeky death before even pre dance?

That doesn't make her town, since it's suicide to kill the IC.

[chennisden]

Yeah, it doesn't really matter anymore.

[chennisden]

It was

{Chennis Bingle Croag}.

[chennisden]

Shiro Cheeky was second last.

[chennisden]

so literally everyone else is wrong and we should sheep you on this totally amazing solve

[chennisden]

Btw there's only 3 pairings with slots I'm not townreading

Which are?

[chennisden]

i'm having doubts on sakura's alignment and i don't think she treats my slot this way if she's town.

[chennisden]

Is it ok if I just say I'm quite sure Sakura will resolve herself?

P-edit: A Sakura-me scum team hard defends each other and curbstomps the game.

Yeah, Sakura can resolve later

[chennisden]

. . .

[chennisden]

sakura -> resolves later
bingle -> wtf
oka -> is town

[chennisden]

Jeez.

[chennisden]

Okay so people scumreading me decided I was scum with Pie and wanted to propel her to endgame.

Now people are saying I'm scum with Bingle.

I'm being scumread because people NEED to be right on me and it's frankly disconcerting

[chennisden]

And I've noticed that everyone who still thinks I'm scum hasn't even attempted to make a response to my walls and are just shifting their narrative to "Chennis is scum given shit load of tinfoil, a solar eclipse, and the moon landing being faked" vs "chennis is town because obvious facts are obvious"

[chennisden]

I kind of actually think Bitmap is scum.

Wanting to lynch chen/Bingle like that right now given the context is really bad.

Me too.

[chennisden]

chenn how does the paranoia feel

TERRIBLE.

[chennisden]

I feel like scum has basically already lost and is pushing their only win vector - getting me mislynched

[chennisden]

As if that's the only reason I'm transparently town.

[chennisden]

Before attempting to scumread me please do this checklist

(1) Try to refute the points in my walls
(2) Realize you can't
(3) Come to the obvious conclusion.

[chennisden]

so you're telling me the scumteam is bingle+chennis+croag

[chennisden]

ur one of the three on his scumlist

u have bad association with him through 1101, 1102

u keep on trying to self-meta and justify that ur town by tryharding

and you're trying to do damage control because your scumpartner made a shitty list.

also, you should probably read the list again.

[chennisden]

zzz

pushing your only win vector

[chennisden]

let's say it's chennis/croag

why would i not pair with croag? given that people thought she was more towny than bingle in a not so subtle attempt to influence my decision, i could get away with it.

let's say it's bingle/croag

a lot of people wanted me gone d1. bingle could get away with going with croag and doesn't have to pull a lot of mental gymnastics.

[chennisden]

ur one of the three on his scumlist

u have bad association with him through 1101, 1102

u keep on trying to self-meta and justify that ur town by tryharding

I said that

(1) the associations on me make no sense - i can't be scum with anyone
(2) i wouldn't drive myself into a corner as scum (which i would've been doing)
(3) people's standards for reading me town are vastly different from other people, which is unreasonable

if you played this way you'd be locktowned. i play this way and some people just want to believe i'm still scum for their egos, and the scumteam is capitalizing on that.

[chennisden]

I dunno. The double standards in this game are real and if any other slot did this they'd get locktowned. And it's not like my scumgame is exactly accomplished - see any of my past scumgames, really. It's just that some people scumread me and want to go "oh yeah look at me I was right Chennis was scum" and then realized that they made no contingencies for me being town. And I guess it's easier to delude yourself into tunneling me even when I should always be town for a myriad of reasons. People have been grasping at straws the entire game to magically scumread me for god knows what reason. First it's people saying I'm scum and I'm playing the way I am so I can push Pie+Sakura to endgame and win, which was already a really deluded point of view to take. If I'm trying to push Pie+Sakura to endgame with all this heat on me, then why the hell would I push that knowing that it's going to be the primary agenda I push pre-game, AND that people would look at it and remember it when I flip scum? Yeah that's old news but it's that start of a clear and consistent pattern in scumreading me just because "lolreasons." The way I approach the game D1 as Ank said kinda nullifies that ALWAYS. Like for any other player in this game this sequence of events would just make everyone go "yup he's town" but here a couple of people still are angleshooting. Am I a scum mastermind who prepared for Croag to flip scum, prepared for people to push me+Croag in a shitty way and make a couple slots look bad, and then passively watch as the town destroys itself and then gloat in my victory while celebrating faking the Moon landing? As scum I'd have to weave through a lot of tight spaces and then rely on SOMEHOW the sensible bits of the town just magically decide to townread my entire gameplan. There was a lot of better things I could've done. I don't really think the Croag argument is even remotely the strongest link of me being town because I pretty much can't and don't have these interactions with anybody during Predance. And then the likes of Bitmap start looking to shade the entire case on me being town because it's convenient to push the least important bit - me not pairing with Croag. Yeah he gets called out on his shit but I guarantee if any of you seriously tried to push CheekyTeeky or whatever you wouldn't be able to just

keep doing it

even when evidence to the contrary arises. But for some reason it's okay to shade Chennisden

again and again

and not get held accountable for advancing scum's wincondition. It's really kind of absurd.

[chennisden]

And I guess that this has been alleviated to some extent but scum is probably just shelving this for a later time

[chennisden]

okay

[chennisden]

sakura are you willing to leave at some point in this game

bcs worst case scenario pie is probably deepwolf

also they keep mentioning themselves as endgame material and its making me paranoid

this question has already been answered a lot

[chennisden]

Pretty much what they're getting at.

Narrating as scum is useful because you don't actually have to even pretend to be sorting

[chennisden]

Read Vecna's takes on me and Bitmap again Ank

[chennisden]

Did GiF or Bitmap propose

[chennisden]

We should talk about Vecna's good posts

Like 568

[chennisden]

Basically the reason I'm making contingencies is because Vecna Pie can't win

And I still think Pie is town

[chennisden]

Btw some food for discussion: ISO Vecna and ctrl F "Croag"

[chennisden]

SHiro is obviously scum

[chennisden]

Explain

[chennisden]

I think gamma could be town because all the "I might not pair with Kirai slot" shenanigans tbh

This

And Nimueh has been doing similar things to her past games

[chennisden]

I wonder scum thinks so low of chen so that they can strongarm chen mislynch

They do apparantely

[chennisden]

Or they did

[chennisden]

btw both i and bingle think the ank/pie interaction is pretty obviously t/t

let's not tunnel onto each other

[chennisden]

Remember this?

Note to self: check which players (attempted to) step up their game after the game consensus towards easy win when I have time

Part of this was because

I felt like Bitmap was under strong attack kinda suddenly

, around when we were pretty much designated endgame pair.
This also strengthens my townread on Bitmap.

this was actually when he attacked chenn/bingle

[chennisden]

Pie said what I wanted to say way better than I could've.

[chennisden]

A lot of the lol scumreads on Pie were because people thought I was pushing her to endgame.

But a scumteam of {Chennis Pie Bingle Croag} doesn't make sense in a

three scum game

...

[chennisden]

Chenn, it'd help if you stopped defending yourself when people dont want to lynch you anymore.

I'm defending pie but ok

[chennisden]

I really can't express in words how out of nowhere this Vecna/Ausuka push actually felt from my POV. People seemed OK enough with them being town, suddenly Ank shows up and just brute forces a wagon on them and it gains a lot of support. I'm concerned about Ank, but this is sketchy af regardless of what her alignment is, really.

Ank, you're sheeping me if Vecna winds up being town, right?

I think it was people being mostly okay with Ausuka town.

[chennisden]

why would scum pie be doomed with town sakura>

Because sakura is gonna auto leave at lylo (technically Mylo but.)

[chennisden]

Hey Bitmap

Reads change, captain obvious

[chennisden]

If we're gonna lynch the slot to lynch Ausuka we might as well not.

[chennisden]

Hmm okay

I think it was interesting that Vecna didn't take Croag

[chennisden]

Also, we cannot get rid of Gamma Emerald at this point, so it probably has more merit to focus on the lesbians at this point in time.

We need some interesting lesbian talk, lesbehonest and all that.

Like, something to entertain me, because right now that part in my brain craving entertainment is poking me, going like

"hey look, this croag has a different avatar from everyone else, thats a good enough reason to propose her to dance, right? RIIIIITE?"

I guess this looks like he was trying to set up a pairing with Croag

But IMO he could've gotten away with pairing with Croag at that time so I dunno why he didn't. It'd be hard to fake an interaction that makes people really believe that he had a reason to go with Croag though and maybe he was holding out on hope someone would take Croag? Idk.

[chennisden]

I guess its kinda obvious why croag hasn't posted

This post trying to insinuate its "obvious" that croag is about to flip scum while its kinda obvious hes about to flip town really looks odd

And then there's this post

[chennisden]

I mean

I don't see a reason for him to call Croag town at this point

Could be WIFOM but I really don't think he was planning ahead here.

[chennisden]

On the other hand these are some of his best posts

[chennisden]

I think if scum is in Vecna/Ausuka it's Ausuka.

Interesting.

[chennisden]

I think it'd be in Vecna

It could be in Ausuka but we should lynch it for Vecna, you get what I'm saying?

[chennisden]

I guess its kinda obvious why croag hasn't posted

This post trying to insinuate its "obvious" that croag is about to flip scum while its kinda obvious hes about to flip town really looks odd

And then there's this post

@GiF this is what I mean

[chennisden]

@GiF

you misread Vecna as Ausuka

[chennisden]

Did I mention Oka is town? Cuz he is.

Too lazy to post a captain obvious meme but here's one in spirit

[chennisden]

GiF if this flips one scum we're pretty much done with the game anyway

Assume it flips town

Who on the wagon do you think is the scum driving the mislynch

[chennisden]

For what it's worth I think chenn being overdefensive isn't scummy and I like him for town although since he's being paired with the IC that read probably doesn't matter anymore.

To clarify for my last post I'll take whichever of bingle or shiro that Vecna doesn't, if they take me that is. I like croag for scum over those two.

For what it's worth I think chenn being overdefensive isn't scummy and I like him for town although since he's being paired with the IC that read probably doesn't matter anymore.

To clarify for my last post I'll take whichever of bingle or shiro that Vecna doesn't, if they take me that is. I like croag for scum over those two.

whats wrong with croag

they managed to read through the whole thread but don't seem to want to give reads or do anything for whatever reason whereas shiro just seems relaxed and bingle seems busy. they also just seem a little fake from what I've seen so far and basically all my reads are gut/tone based so.

croag has posted more game related content than bingle tho

if this is to me which it seems to be; you're kinda correct but that doesn't mean anything to me? bingle hasn't really been here. croag read through the entire thread and only posted about wanting a girlfriend.

That would've required insane mental gymnastics

[chennisden]

Because Ankamius increases the win rate by a lot

[chennisden]

I hope that's a satisfactory answer for not killing Grob now

[chennisden]

yeah grob is dying pt 2 of day 1

There's actualyl a d2

[chennisden]

There's an intermission after this

[chennisden]

Btw Oka

Assume it flips town

We should plan around it hitting double town

This game is gg ez if we hit scum

[chennisden]

Reading is hard