Weather Mafia II (GAME OVER)

[Yosarian2]

Hey, I'm here.

Hmm. It's a shame that Nuwen replaced out, after the day ended yesterday I really wanted to question her for her massive defense of BBmolla.

Staeg, if you've had a chance to read the game yet, do you have any comments about your predecessor's over-the-top defense of scum?

On other notes:

I agree with UT that Shadoweh looks like a possible buddy of BBmolla based on voting patterns yesterday.

I also still think Katsuki is likely to be scum, of either kind, but especally likely to be scum with BBmolla. Yesterday Katsuki was one of my top suspects because of generally useless play and what looked to me like a really bad voting history with general quite poor justification for the poor votes. Kats looks much worse now that BB has flipped scum; it looks like at every point, Kats was trying to lynch someone else over BB, basically anyone else. First, Kats was trying to lynch me over BB (hitching his vote on the wagon driven by the double-voter without Kats giving any good reasons for the vote, like I pointed out yesterday).

Glork wrote:Vote Count 1.22
Yosarian2 5 (UberNinja, UberNinja, Katsuki, MattP, Fate)
BBmolla 4 (Amrun, Thestatusquo, Tierce, Untrod Tripod)
Katsuki 3 (BBmolla, Yosarian2, Staeg)
hasdgfas 2 (Shadoweh, singersigner)
UberNinja 2 (Porochaz, kuribo)
Tierce 1 (hasdgfas)
singersigner 1 (snifit)
Amrun 1 (Benmage)

Not Voting 1 (DrippingGoofball)

Then, when that wagon failed, Kat moved to the Amrun wagon when that was the biggest non-BB non-Kat wagon:

Glork wrote:Vote Count 1.23
BBmolla 4 (Amrun, Thestatusquo, Tierce, Untrod Tripod)
Katsuki 3 (BBmolla, Yosarian2, Staeg)
Amrun 3 (Benmage, Fate, Katsuki)
hasdgfas 2 (Shadoweh, singersigner)
UberNinja 2 (Porochaz, kuribo)
Staeg 2 (UberNinja, UberNinja)
Yosarian2 1 (MattP)
Tierce 1 (hasdgfas)
singersigner 1 (snifit)

Not Voting 1 (DrippingGoofball)

And then moved to a different large BB-coutnerwagon after that, the singersinger.

BBmolla 6 (Amrun, Thestatusquo, Tierce, Untrod Tripod, MattP, kuribo)
Untrod Tripod 5 (Shadoweh, UberNinja, UberNinja, BBmolla, Staeg)
singersigner 4 (snifit, Benmage, Fate, Katsuki)
Katsuki 1 (Yosarian2)
UberNinja 1 (Porochaz)
Tierce 1 (hasdgfas)

Not Voting 2 (DrippingGoofball, singersigner)

And stayed on it for the rest of the day.

In that last vote-count especally, both Kats and Shadoweh look bad; if Kats is scum with BB, then it's quite possible Shadoweh is also scum, and they just wanted to avoid been seen on the same wagon together.

Vote:Katsuki

Fos:shadoweh

[Yosarian2]

How good we are at balancing 20 player multiscum games is an open question. Let me just say that 14:3:3 is a pretty common setup for a 20 player game. 16:2:2 or something wouldn't surprise me either.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote vote Yos2

Oh, please. You were attacking me early in the day yesterday, but you had figured out I was town by the end of the day. The only people really attacking me at the end of the day yesterday was the derp UberNinja, the confirmed scum BBmolla, and the probable scum Katsuki.

In old mini's 8-2-2 was balanced. 16-2-2

Balanced, are they? Do you know what the win percentages of 8-2-2 or 14-3-3's are?

But, yes. 14-3-3 is the most likely scenerio here. 12-4-4 is also possible.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. It's a shame that Nuwen replaced out, after the day ended yesterday I really wanted to question her for her massive defense of BBmolla.

I don't know that Nuwen defended him anymore than I did (to Tierce at least that I recall). Why only bring up Nuwen?

Nuwen's defense of BBmolla was pretty intense and over-the-top towards the end of the day yesterday. For example:

Yeah, sometimes I'm wrong, but the conviction here is strong. BBMolla is town and his wagon is a gold mine for catching scum from BOTH teams for this reason. I want it to burn harder and brighter than Kobe in 1945.

She never really explained why she was so sure BBMolla was town, either, and I really wanted to ask her about it.

It's especially jarring because I was pretty firmly convinced Nuwen was town before that point.

[Yosarian2]

I know old Minis town to scum was below 40% win rate right? Like 38% win rate for town or something like that. So.. well... yeah. If 8-2-2 was still passable. Doubling the town. Lol, I think not.

PJ's recent games have shown that a 14-3 or 15-3 setup still tends to be pretty balanced even without any scum power. I don't think it would necessarily be as unbalanced as you thing, if designed the right way.

Anyway, this is a really silly argument, since it actually started with someone questioning me about why I was assuming that 3 or 4 man scum groups were possible, and with me saying that 14-3-3 is one of the most common setups for 20 player multiball games. You're basically attacking me by arguing in favor of my initial point of view here.

[Yosarian2]

I was pretty confident Amrun was obvtown even before she played such a big role in driving the BB-wagon all the way to a lynch. No way we're lynching her today.

[Yosarian2]

Does anyone think Nuwen replaced out because BBmolla (her scumbuddy) flipped scum and it made her look bad? How common is behavior like that?

That would be considered very, very poor sportsmaship. A newbie might freak out and do that, but you won't see an experienced, respected player like nuwen acting like that. You only replace out if you actually can't continue the game for RL reasons, period. In this case, it's way more likely that the forum being down for a month between day 1 and day 2 has more to do with the replacements then anything in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Benmage shot Reck from scumteam red in the face early on day 1, right at at time when Reck was doing backflips to try to get BBmolla lynched; and then helped lynch scumteam-blue BBMolla at a key point at the end of the day, putting him at 7 votes to UT's 5 votes when Benmange could have put them at a 6 and 6 tie instead. Benmage is very unlikely to be scum with either scum group at this point.

[Yosarian2]

I was pretty confident Amrun was obvtown even before she played such a big role in driving the BB-wagon all the way to a lynch. No way we're lynching her today.

That's funny I remember you spending most of Day 1 saying how scummy she was for joking that she was scum; to the tune of nearly ignoring most everyone else in the game.

Funny how you don't seem to remember that little detail.

I guess you haven't bothered to re-read day 1, huh?

Yes, early day 1, I was going after Amrun for a while. By about a third of the way through the day, I figured out she was town, and had her on my obv-town list for the rest of the day. I said so about a dozen times.

Ben: Really don't see an Amrun lynch happening today. She looks really town to me at this point.

I'd say today, I'm probably leaning towards Kats, BB, or Porochaz.

Considering how obsessed you were with me on day 1, it's bizzare you apparently don't know who I suspected and who I was was obvtown.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really get this whole Tierce attack on Amrun. The whole thing feels weird, and I don't really get how she gets from those arguments to a "die now" level of certainty. She calls Amrun a "lurker", when Amrun has been quite active this game; she seems to imply that Amrun somehow wasn't trying hard enough to get BB lynched, which I don't see at all; and some other weird stuff that just doesn't seem to add up to a case.

Tierce: How much of this is based on you just not liking the fact that Amrun has suspected you yesterday and today?

[Yosarian2]

My point is that Amrun is lying when it comes to events and the way I've behaved, Yos. There's no protown reason for her to be doing so.

So, you're voting for her because you don't like the way she's attacking you. Yeah, that's about what I thought.

Tierce, you do realize that even though your motives at the point when you stopped defending BB and started attacking him instead may be crystal clear to you, that the rest of us aren't necessarily going to take your word for it, right?

I don't really care how much she was trying to get BB lynched, just that she stated she was riding that wagon hard, that she took a lot of crap for it, that she repeatedly showed BB was scum, when there is no real evidence of it. It seems like she's trying to get towncred for a great work, when that work can be summed up by that "on a limb" vote on BB for being Reck's buddy after Reck flipped.

So, you think she is scum because she's "lying" about taking heat for pushing the BB lynch? I think I remember Nuwen attacking her for that; let me take a look.

I read Amrun as the most likely candidate for buddies with Reck. Have roughly a week to read her in more depth. You'll see a wagon if I find anything that confirms skimmy connection hunting.

BBM is town. Scum on his wagon is either Tierce or Amrun. BBM, we can napalm the lurkers after we flush scum out of your wagon. This is your chance to be cooperative and interactive.

Then benmage voted Amrun without giving a reason, but I'm guessing it was based on Nuwen's logic.

Then Katsuki attacked Amrun, again without giving a reason:

It wouldn't surprise me either if Amrun/Yos both flipped scum. Calling this now.

I would say that Amrun's comment that she took heat for sticking to the BB wagon appears to be factually accurate, and you swearing that she "has to be scum" because she's "lying about that" really bugs me.

Your other reason is even weirder to me. So what if her reasons for initially suspecting BB turned out to be wrong? Lynching scum for the wrong reason is still a pro-town act.

[Yosarian2]

On a side note, after re-reading Nuwen's post from yesterday, I'm having a hard time seeing her as scum, despite all the hardcore BB defending she was doing.

[Yosarian2]

You're twisting my words again. You said earlier that I was calling Amrun a "lurker", and now that I'm "swearing that

[Amrun]

has to be scum"". Why are you doing that?

Uh. Are you denying that you called Amrun a lurker? You said this just a few days ago:

You built up a wagon and completely ignored it other than complaining you were 'catching crap' for voting BB. Guess what, I've been burned by Amrun lurkscum.

How else am I supposed to read that?

As for the other part; when someone starts making comments like:

Die now.

It's usually a pretty clear signal that they're 100% confident of their wagon and no longer have any doubts; IE, a conviction that the person had to be scum. Which is part of the reason I find your play here so odd; you seem to have a high degree of certainty about your vote, and I don't understand how you could have gotten that from the case you're making.

Also I notice that as soon as I start questioning you, you start attacking me with pretty much the exact same verbage you used to attack Amrun as soon as she started questioning you:

The way Amrun worded that "I took a lot of crap for

[the wagon]

" post yesterday makes it look like she was taking heat before Nuwen &co. started voting her.

I really don't get what you mean by this. Amrun just said she took heat for the wagon yesterday, which is clearly true; she was attacked for voting for BB, and kept her vote there anyway.

Basically, I want you to explain what, exactly, you think Amrun was lying about, because I really don't see it.

[Yosarian2]

Ratio of useful posts/ useless or anti-town posts for uberninja so far today: 1/23

And I'm being really generous giving you that 1 point.

[Yosarian2]

So, which of my posts is the useful one?

This post.

Shadoweh, you know I'd love to vote you and all, but I'm not done wih reading the game.
I COULD vote you, but what would be the benefit if I changed the vote a few hours later?

Confirm Vote: Staeg

This is all kinds of awful.

The other 96% of your posts so far today are spam, garbage, factually incorrect, or downright anti-town.

At least they're short, which I suppose is an improvement over some of the illogical walls of text from yesterday, but you don't really seem to be trying to do much to help the town here.

[Yosarian2]

Yosariaqn and Shadow are both scumreads of mine.

Katsuki is the EPIOTME of a vote-park wagon, one you can sit on and the person can fight back. One you can sit on and when asked why you say "well look at his shit ISO. He's done nothing but lurk."

Pro-tip: If you can look at someone ISO and say "look at his shit ISO, he's done nothing but lurk", it usually means that person is scum.

Of course, that's not at all why I'm voting Katsuki, I'm voting Katsuki becuase of a voting pattern that strongly implies he was trying to save BBmolla yesterday in addition to all the reasons I gave yesterday for katsuki being scum. I'd also be willing to lynch Shadow for the same reason.

I don't at all get why you're ignoring all the actually scummy people to go after the obv-town Amrun, the one who actually lynched a scum yesterday while the people you're defending were doing their damnedest to push horrible countererwagons instead.

[Yosarian2]

oh for god's sake, if anything, katsuki lurking is a town tell for him

I doubt Kats not playing at all today is any kind of tell on him.

I'm much more interested to hear your opinion on the actual case on Kats.

[Yosarian2]

^lol can we kill this yet.

"Vote: UN because a double voter COULD be scum"

"ohhey lemme ask about weather conditions"

Uh. You really don't understand why she was asking about that, and what that has to do with UN's alignment?

-Mods usually don't want to see scum get doublevoting roles in lynch or lose, for obvious reasons.

-UN seems to has a doublevote only on sunny days. Although, tbf, we don't actually know if that's how his role works, but that's what people are assuming.

-The odds of the mod making that role scum are much higher if it's unlikely that the role gets a double vote on lynch or lose day.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and about the question, Amrun: I'm not sure if it's random or not, but if I remember correctly there were roles in the first Weather Mafia that could change the weather for the next day.

[Yosarian2]

This is TOWN Katsuki. And don't fuckin "ALL HE DID WAS SHEEP YOU FATE THAT NO TOWN" me you scumfucks

Scum Katsuki is afraid of the game state, afraid of others thinking he's scum. He puts in minimal effort and tries to manipulate me as a side job.


This is town katsuki, who to lazy or busy to read the game, does what he does best: Gets a read on me and then sheeps me. Lazy and efficient.

Now GTFO and fake some REAL scumhunting, the Katsuki vote Park is closed for the day.

So...your argument is that Katsuki must be town, because he's mindlessly sheeping Fate onto a terrible, terrible bandwagon on Amrun, the largest bandwagon, without really seeming to care about the alignment of the person he's lynching, and that somehow that makes him lazy town and not lazy scum?

That's probably the worst defense of anyone that I've ever heard.

[Yosarian2]

Have you been practicing that mudslinging in the scum QT? Wooooooow

I say Katsuki doesn't have time for this game atm so he sheeps his strongest townread onto a wagon that read is sure about, you say "mindlessly sheeping terrible teeribl buzzword largest buzzword lazyscum worst defense"

If you remember, "sheeping Fate onto terrible bandwagons without giving any of his own logic" was one of the scumtells I called kats out on yesterday, one of the reasons I was votign for him even before I knew BB was scum. Him coming back into the thread and doing it *again* doesn't make him look any better, and you calling this very behavior a towntell doesn't make either of you look better.

I realize you think you're an awesome scumhunter who's never wrong about everything, but slow down for a second and think about what's going on here. Player A, a loud, headstrong gut player who's well known for being hyperagressive, goes charging at windmills like he always does; fine, null tell on player A. Player B quietly gets on the wagon behind him, multiple times on multiple wagons, without ever giving any reasons for acting like this. That's a big scum tell on player B.

If player A is town, player B is scum who is using him. If Player A is scum, player B is probably scum in the other group. Either way, player B is not acting like town.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, can you answer what I asked you earlier?

I really wish when people said stuff like this, they'd make it clear what they were talking about.

Do you mean this?

From the perspective of trying to save BB why did I start a new wagon instead of joining the wagons that were already there if I didn't really care who was lynched?.

I assumed that was a rhetorical question.

It is a fairly plausible defense on your part; there might have been a more efficient way for hypo-scum-shadoweh to try and save BB. Of course, there are possible answers to it, such as the one I mentioned before; it's possible the third member of your scum group was pushing the other counter wagon, and you didn't want to tie yourself to him too closely. Or you may have just had a harder time finding a way to, say, justify sheeping on UN/Fate. (shrug)

To sum up; yes, that was a reasonable defense on your part, but no, it doesn't completely "clear" you of the possibility of trying to save BB with a counterwagon. I still dislike the Untrod Tripod wagon you were pushing in general, he just doesn't seem like likely scum to me, and the fact that that counterwagon you started almost saved a scum is still a strike against you.

[Yosarian2]

it's like this: if you think he's useless, that's fine- say so. if you'd rather lynch him than take him to LYLO, hell, even that i'd understand

but if you just don't trust him for the long-term game, at least have the nut enough to say so, don't hide behind "he's lurkscum"

(shrug) If a person makes 3 posts, and all 3 of them look scummy, I usually consider that person to be scum; in fact, that person is usually higher on my suspect list then someone who's made 30 posts and 25 of them look scummy.

And pretty much everything Kats has done this game looks at least a little scummy to me, for one reason or another.

Quote tags fixed.
-Glork

[Yosarian2]

That's because it is in my favor.

Scum wouldn't be modifying their claims, they'd make sure to get it right the first time. Conversely, a townie would have no reason to fear doing it.

I clarified that they made a mistake in the interest of transparency and honesty.

So...you misread or forgot or got confused about the part of your role that talks about the double vote. Sure. At best, though, it's completly null; there's no obvious reason why you'd have an easier time understanding a confusing role as scum then as town, and I don't get why you're trying to use this as part of your defense.

To make your claim clear; you are claiming that every time there is a sunny day, you will have a double vote, and not in any other weather conditions, is that right?

[Yosarian2]

This UN wagon is tempting, but I have to say that I still think Kats is more likely to be scum, and I hate that it looks like we're going to just let him lurk his way through this whole game, just posting barely often enough to not be replaced, without ever calling him out on it.

[Yosarian2]

This UN wagon is tempting, but I have to say that I still think Kats is more likely to be scum, and I hate that it looks like we're going to just let him lurk his way through this whole game, just posting barely often enough to not be replaced, without ever calling him out on it.

UN is going to flip scum. You and Shea will be next. Shea for his shit dismissal of UN and you for the "hurmmmm... well, I could vote here, but I will stick with my useless vote instead"

If you think there is any possibility in a billion years that I am scum with UN, you clearly haven't re-read day 1 recently.

[Yosarian2]

This UN wagon is tempting, but I have to say that I still think Kats is more likely to be scum, and I hate that it looks like we're going to just let him lurk his way through this whole game, just posting barely often enough to not be replaced, without ever calling him out on it.

If that's what you're worried about, don't be.

vote: UN

Everyone seems willing to just ignore him again today, and so many people are using that "oh, don't vote the useless lurker, you're obviously all scum going after the easy target" defense that it looks like the town is planning to just let him live until he endgames us, like those damn lurker scum always do.

[Yosarian2]

That much is testable, anyway. If he has a double vote any time it's not thundestorming, then we'll find that out at some point. Also, if he has a double vote every time it's not thunderstorming, the odds of him being scum go down.

If it comes to lynching him or a no-lynch, I'd hammer him at deadline, because I think he's a huge determent to the town, especially if he has a double vote. But I don't really think he's scum here.

[Yosarian2]

That's a pretty crappy defense for why you defended scum, UN. Want to be a little more specific?

[Yosarian2]

UN: stop dodging the issue with and please answer the question.

Can you be more specific about why you defended scum, other then an incredibly vague "Tierce's early game argument about BB being town was good and her late-day argument about him being scum was bad"? Why did you defend BBm? Why did you think he was town?

[Yosarian2]

Uggh gona reread rthisd when I'm sober want Yos/Staeg dead

Really? I thought the only reason you gave for clalling me scum was:

Yosariaqn and Shadow are both scumreads of mine.

Katsuki is the EPIOTME of a vote-park wagon, one you can sit on and the person can fight back. One you can sit on and when asked why you say "well look at his shit ISO. He's done nothing but lurk."

A Katsuki vote SCREAMS "I WANT2COAST PLZ" Its also a very appealing mislynch I'm sure both scumteams would be happy to go for, (I always get around to mislynching Katsuki when I'm scum. Its just a matter of when its most convenient a day for it.)

You were just calling me scum because I was trying so hard to lynch Katsuki. Other people were calling me scum because I refused to help lynch Unberninja.

Kind of weird that none of what happened yesterday has changed your read at all, Fate.

[Yosarian2]

From yesterday:

This UN wagon is tempting, but I have to say that I still think Kats is more likely to be scum, and I hate that it looks like we're going to just let him lurk his way through this whole game, just posting barely often enough to not be replaced, without ever calling him out on it.

UN is going to flip scum. You and Shea will be next. Shea for his shit dismissal of UN and you for the "hurmmmm... well, I could vote here, but I will stick with my useless vote instead"

The more I think about this post, the more it bothers me.

First of all, of course, is him dismissing my push on Kats as a "shit vote" without giving reasons.

Beyond that, the whole thing seems like a transparent effort to push through a lynch on UN by threatening the people who were opposed to it. If he thought UN was scum with me, probably hadn't read UN's posts from either day 1 or day 2 (despite trying really hard to lynch the guy), or else he didn't actually care and was just trying to finish off the bad wagon. Either one would be scummy.

He also basically didn't do anything to speak of on day 2 other then that. Also he was on my suspect list on day 1 as well for the way he was playing.

Vote:Porochaz

[Yosarian2]

Poro's been on my radar as well. Agreed, he did next to nothing yesterday, save being one of the only relatively legit UN voters. However I don't see scum

needing

to push mislynches yet. Sooo...I don't know. Not totally oppossed, but I'm not for it yet.

To be fair, hypo-Poro-scum wouldn't necessarily have known that he was pushing a mislynch; this is a multiball game.

The troubling thing here, along with the soft defense of a scum, is that Poro didn't seem especially curious about UN's alignment, since it doesn't really look like he was even really reading UN's posts.

[Yosarian2]

I'll freely admit Im not reading anyone's posts fairly deeply and when I am usually forget about it the next time I post. UN from the reads I got was scum, the reaction to the mounting pressure was not good. The end.

I am amused by people who are reading into Fate shooting his mouth off. It's Fate, people.

Can you explain why you thought my vote on Kats was "shit"? Did you read the cases I posted against him on day 1 and day 2?

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen wasn't buddying Yosarian because she was trying to get one of his town reads lynched? Youu really ARENT that dense.

That's a disagreement of reads, which any alignments can have. Where she was BUDDYING Yosarian is when, and this happened DIRECTLY after I replaced in and derped around. She chainsaswed (one of the better ways to buddy: attack people calling your target scum. It has more finesse than just sucking someones cock and calling them obvtown) IMMEDIATELY and called Yosarian's wagon "full of scum" and tried to paint it like there were all scum on Yos' wagon.

Eh, that could go either way.

It could have been budying, but I also think Nuwen-town would have quite likely to defend me against a illogical day-1 wagon; Nuwen is usually pretty good at reading me as town, and people trying to lynch me when she has a town read on me would tend to piss her off.

Other stuff Nuwen did dosn't really make a lot of sense as scum. staeg needs to pick his play up if he wants to survive, though.

[Yosarian2]

No, buddying up to Fate with no set-up is just like you randomly going "I wash old people" every game and then going along saying that it's your meta or amrun going "I <333 my BF" with no reason or provocation

Staeg: at this point, we don't know what you're talking about, and we don't really care.


What you need to do is start playing the game. Figure out who you suspect, and explain why. Figure out who you think is town, and explain why. If you want to defend yourself as well and explain why we should think you're town, that's great too, but mostly what I need is for you to start actually thinking about the game and playing it seriously. The closest thing you've done to scumhunting all day today is this:

I'm here and I'm still lost.

vote: Shadoweh

and that's just sad.

If you want to survive today, stop with the pointless one-liner rejoiners to things nobody cares about, and actually put the time in to re-read the game, or at least key sections of it, and make a list of who you think the scum are.

[Yosarian2]

Yos

other than Poro, who do you want lynched. Like a top 3.

meh, that's a fair question. I don't really have many strong scum reads right now other then poro, but I've got enough strong town reads that I should be able to give you a general idea. In fact, like I said earlier this game, I still have too many town reads. Anyway, here's my reads from most townish to least townish:

Confirmed town:
Benmage
DGB-I'd assume she was town anyway, + what looks like a cop breadcrumb from singer

Obv town:
Amrun

Pretty Town:
Thestatusquo - Feels town-ish, pretty good voting record. Was on the BB wagon early. Also TSQ comes out looking good from the Reck-TSQ interaction on day 1, IMHO.

Fate- I'm not usually good at reading Fate, but:
-I really don't think he's blue scum with Kats; my biggest scumtell on Kats was that Kats was following Fate's lead for no reason, which makes sense if Fate is town and Kats is hiding behind his coat-tails and buddying, but doesn't make sense if they're scum together.
-I don't think he's red scum with Reckoner either; Reck was, at one point, going at SK (the guy Fate replaced) pretty hard. Not 100% sure about this one, but it doesn't really feel like a bus attempt to me.

Nullish/townish/I donno
kondi2424 (replaces MattP D2): MattP really felt like newbtown on day 1. I mean, take a look at this post:

:vote: bbmolla

Either doctor or scum I'm gonna guess scum

"yay we got a scum"

So many things wrong with that post, and yet it's so unlikely to come from a scum


Kondi, though, has been pretty useless so far.


Shadoweh (replaces farside22 D1): Yesterday, I suspected him of being scum with BB who pushed a counterwagon, but after he helped me push Kats yesterday that seems less likely. Doesn't seem that scummy in general.

Kuribo: I really don't have a strong read on him, and I don't know why; he's been pretty active. He did help with the BB wagon.

Untrod Tripod: He's generally given me good gut feelings. But his voting record really isn't good, and he's spent a lot of time fighting with people who we now know are town, like uberninja. I don't like putting him this low on the list, but I'm not confident of him.

Staeg (replaces Nuwen N1, who replaced valacirca D1, who replaced Korts D1): Really not happy with his play. Nuwen felt town-ish, but then again she did defend scum. Staeg has been pretty worthless. I donno; for some reason, I don't really think this wagon is that likely to hit scum, but if Staeg doesn't start playing I might join it anyway.

Tierce: Did help with BB wagon yesterday, but a lot of stuff about her bugs me. Really dislike the way she went after Amrun.

Porochaz: I'd bet money at this point that he's scum.

Other then Porochaz, I am afraid to say that while I'm quite confident about the town side of the list, the bottom of the list is pretty fuzzy. I do think that the scum are within the group of:

(Porochaz, Tierce, Staeg, Untrod Tripod, Kuribo, Shadoweh)

Assuming there's 3 scum left (2 red + 1 blue), I'm pretty confident that they're all in that group of 6 people. I really wnat to lynch Porochaz, I'm pretty sure he's scum at this point. Other then that, I'd be ok lynching Staeg, possibly Tierce (although i'd want to question her a lot more first) and maaayybe UT, although I don't really want to go there today.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, Tierce, I'd be perfectly happy lynching anyone from either group scum today. If we lynch bluescum, we hopefully eliminate a kill, which gives us more time; if we lynch redscum, we have a chance at a crosskill, which helps our odds of winning significantly. Either way, we'd be going into night with just 2 scum left out of 12 (assuming we started 3 blue 3 red), which is a great place for us to be.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos
Who, besides UberNinja (who a good deal of us argued with), do we

know

is town who I have been arguing with? I'm guessing that you're referring to Shadoweh and (to a limited extent) Amrun, but neither of them are conftown at all. Seems like you're starting with the assumption that your town reads are known as town, which they aren't.

And about my voting record, I'm not going to make any claims that it's awesome, but my main pushes were on Molla, Shadoweh and UberNinja. It's not like I've been throwing my votes around like confetti or wildly pushing mislynches, so I'm not sure what's so bad about it since all you've said is that it "really isn't good". Also why single my voting record out? No one's has been particularly sterling, especially from your scum reads.

Not feeling great about you dropping some vague suspicion on me on this basis.

Yes, I'm mostly talking about UN here.

Like I said, it's basically process of elimination at this point. Nothing you've done really feels scummy to me, and I don't have a scum gut read from you, I just can't eliminate you from being scum at this point, and it doesn't really feel like most of your actions have really pushed the pro-town win condition. So, yeah, my reasons for having you that low on the list are really vague; I really wanted to put you higher, but I couldn't justify it to myself.

[Yosarian2]

Woah. Shea, I really think you're reading things into Amrun's posts that aren't there. She just made a few vague comments about your activity level, which is something that people are always going to discuss in a game; I think you're taking things way more personally then they were intended.

[Yosarian2]

So FUCKING cheeky.

Post bullshit in the thread and everytime someone blows up you go "TEEHEE INVENTED CASE"

Guns toward Amrun, hammers toward Staeg seriously what the HELL is he still doing alive? Yos you admit Staeg has looked like shit why are you giving him an out "oh well if he tries to scumhunt I won't lynch him" how does that in anyway detract from his PAST scumminess?

Staeg's crimes cannot be pardoned. He's claimed fucking vanilla which screams "DONT CROSSKILL PL0X I WANT TO LIVE FOREVER"

WE GET IT there's two fuckign scumteams ONE LYNCH AT A TIME PEOPLE

I might end up lynching. We'll see what he does. I just have a really hard time seeing day 1 Nuwen as scum, but maybe I'm just a sucker for people who defend me. I do know that if Staeg doesn't start producing something useful soon, we're going to have to get rid of him, we can't afford a dead weight like that sitting around forever and the process of elimination razor is shaving closer and closer every day.

I still think Prozac is much more likely to actually be scum though, and I really want to get rid of one more obvscum before we start working our way through the merely useless players. It's not like his play has been any more useful, either, and I'm not buying his "I'm always early in the game" defense. I've played with him a bunch of times before, and sure he gets more active later in the games, but even early on he usually tries a lot harder then this. Looking at his posts, I have him down as "deeply demoralized scum" at this point; it feels like he's basically given up on this game, which doesn't make any sense as town since town is doing awesome at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Actually the site crash, not realising how much my new job would take out of me and some really upsetting additions to the player list demoralised me. I am trying my best to increase my post flow, which you are helping with. Problem Im having is not retaining stuff, so whilst I find Amrun scummy mcscummerson currently, that has about a retention time of about 3 days.

Yos, Im trying to work out your thoughts here. I look forward to reading your posts within this game, and I was slightly disappointed you didn't respond to my last post. Your problem and your vote with me seems primarily meta based which troubles me a bit, in that I'd expect more from someone who doesn't throw around his vote. But then hey, I'm using meta their as well. Regardless though, what worries me most, and I do find me making this point kind of dampens it a bit, is that with your case not really having that much content behind it, are you really finding me scummy or are you just looking for the easy (and potentially dangerous) option?

I really think you're scummy at this point, yeah. Meta isn't a big part of that, either, other then to say that I don't consider your "I'm always useless early in the game" meta defense to be either convincing or consistant with what I know of you.

You've been on my "list of people I wouldn't mind lynching" since day 1 at this point.

The biggest issues I have with you at the moment are:

-Very limited amount of scumhunting, and what there is is fairly low quality. Just doesn't really look like you're trying to help the town this game.

-trying to push through the UN by accusing me (and Shea) of being scum with UN, in a situation where I don't believe town-Porochaz would have actually believed that. UN was trying WAY too hard to lynch me all game for there to be any way you could have plausibly believed that a UN-Yos scum team was at all plausible. You also didn't seem to blink in your efforts of trying to lynch him after he clarified his claim, even though the clarified claim seemed to really lower the odds of him being scum; like I said yesterday, I can't really see the mod giving the scum a double vote "whenever it's not a thunderstorm".

I don't blame anyone for simply suspecting UN, he was a pretty bad poster, but suspecting him without even seeming to consider his basically confirmed role seems weird.

-Defense of the scum Kats. I wouldn't have minded as much if I got the impression that at the end of day 2 you actually had some reason to think Kats was town, or that you had some reason to think my case was bad, but it felt like you were just trying to dismiss my case as "shit" in a really offhanded way without really explaining why.

I did read your post where you defend your defense of Kats as you not reading my day 1 case, but that on day 2, you claimed that I wasn't able to "differentiate to you how Katsuki's play is different from his usual play", and I'm not sold by that defense. Even if you didn't go back and read day 1, if you read THIS thread, you should have at least been able to comment on my main points against Kats, which were:

-A day 1 voting pattern on the part of Kats that strongly indicated a link between Kats and BBm, that I explained in great detail in this post: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p3919985

-A pattern of sheeping on Fate and UN with a complete lack of logic that appeared to be a textbook case of "scum following town onto bad wagons"

Neither of those points were at all meta-based, or have anything to do with what "Kat's usual play is".

Also regardless of alignment, see Weather Mafia 1 (and the Glork Weather Mafia humping in other areas) it may not have been my best win but it was definitely the coolest. I harassed Glork to run this again (which didnt take much as he was already doing that), I PM'ed some of the more awesome original players to convince them to join. I even got pissy when Glork didn't initially allow pre-ins. I'm not that big of a jerk that after all that effort I would just give up. You've played with me enough where I've been either alignment to know thats true. However this paragraph is dedicated to me being huffy that you would even think that I've given up on this game - if that were true I would have replaced out.

"Giving up" might be a bit strong. I guess a better description would be that it seems like you are frustrated and unmotivated by this game at this point. I see that a lot in townies when the town is losing, but the town is doing awesome so far this game; it's only day 3, and we already have 3 dead scum. I realize it probably sounds like a weird tell, but I do find that people who are winning at any given point of a game tend to be more cheerful and excited by the game, while people who are losing tend to post less and have a harder time getting motivated. Anyway, this is just a side point here; the main reasons I think you are scum are the ones I explained above.