Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Mastermind of Sin]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastermind of Sin
For being a Niblonian! Also, for being in scum in Consulmaker :3

Lies! Well, on one of them at least.

Kill all the orcs! Start with their leader!

Vote: Lord Mhork

[Mastermind of Sin]

?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really feel like catching up. Someone tell me what's happened so far and who I should vote. Pretty content to sheep for now cuz fuck it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Pine

I believe in the power of Team Mo_!

[Mastermind of Sin]

So tempted to vote Norman for being wishy-washy (in answering question #1). =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh hey I actually read all the posts from today. So proud of myself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Tammy: Yep. Nope.

Let's kill this Pine fella already!

[Mastermind of Sin]

You guys post too much for sick people.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The honest reason for my reasoning for a quick lynch is because I am on spring break. I wanted to progress the game quicker than normal so there could have atleast been a lot of progress made before I have to go back to school and be unable to contribute as much. And now that I have found Pine to be obv scum in my eyes and other people see it as well, I just want to move on to the next day already.

MoI imma let you handle this one. Takes too much effort.

*collapses*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Prod times don't mean anything. 16 hours is a really long time. (And 48 hours is more then half a game day where I'm from. <_< ) And considering everyone forgot he exists in favor of LYNCH ME LYNCH ME it's not as crazy a concept as you make it out to be.

Nope, 16 hours is NOTHING. Look up the page. The site you are playing on is Mafiascum.net. It's not EM, Smashboards or whatever other place you are from. Site norms here are what apply.

Once upon a time over 2 years ago I migrated here from a site with 24hour Day / Night cycles. Did I conclude that reactions times as I was used to still applied? Nope, I adjusted my expectations.

Your stance is scummy. Especially given you have played in games here on MS before.!

Truth

We have 20+ pages in 4 1/2 game days. That's just silly. As a member of the working class, I have time to post ~once/day right now. To expect the day to be nearly over already (in less than a week) is pretty much ridiculous.

[Mastermind of Sin]

People I would not be willing to lynch:

MaguaOfIllusion

People who I didn't even realize were in this game:

Empking
AurorusVox
PeregrineV
Y u no scum
LynchMePls
brizingre1
greenknight
Feysal
Skenvoy
kondi2424
Jackal711
Guy_Named_Riggs
Haze

Everyone Else:

Pine
ManiacalLemon
CooLDog
trekker
Tammy
Shadoweh
kondi2424
Norman
Lord Mhork
Shadow1psc
Foxace36

In other news, this game sucks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why am I in both lists?

Realized at the last second I realized you were in the game cuz someone else mentioned you. =P

Thats a bit hypocritical coming from you.

LoL...

[Mastermind of Sin]

CooLDoG flip flopped on and off of Norman.

Going forward norman will become a really easy lynch for both scum teams to push. Right now I see norman as one of the most pro-active players in the game who is trying to scum hunt. I might be a little biased towards favoring the VI because I was treated like that before (and to a certain extend still to this day), but norman does not have the characteristics of being scum. And nobody as brought a good case against him. Lemon seems to be the main pusher of this policy lynch happy mob.

ITT Norman is going to soft-claim and backtrack on every possible role in the hopes of outing Town Powerroles!!!

Good Times!

Can we have lynch time now please?

yes.
Norman, I'm going to vote you because it is day 1.

vote:norman

and because I want to.
@green, read better. Like seriously, make sure that what you are saying is true before you post it.
@lord mhork, read his sig please.

I've also had a gut feeling on him since the beginning. He seems to be repeating what has already been said, also.
MoS: He's done absolutely nothing of any help whatsoever. No matter how little time you have, you can at least get in one post with content in it today.
Shadoweh: Seems a little pushy on me still, but that's understandable, due to cognitive bias. Seems to be trying to scumhunt sincerely.
Tammy: Her scumhunting looks good.
VOTE: CooLDoG
Back to my first scum read I suppose.

I spent my allotment for the day skimming the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Neither?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Neither?

What does 8 x 7 = ?

6? 9? 42?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What's 6 + 9 + 42 - you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What's 6 + 9 + 42 - you?

6 + 9 + 42 - you = 57 - you. This is because you is a variable, and therefore is an imcomplete algrebraic equation.

you are an individual.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Those last two quotes don't seem to be mutually exclusive...am I missing something?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You were swimming in March?

You were thinking about this game while you were swimming?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Norman, you're not a very likable person.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're operating under the assumption that what is going on in this thread is actually mafia. I haven't seen anything yet that particularly strikes me as useful.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're operating under the assumption that what is going on in this thread is actually mafia. I haven't seen anything yet that particularly strikes me as useful.

Then why be voting Pine rather than being on a wagon?

I *was* on a wagon! It was the Pine wagon! I dunno what happened.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What about MoS? He doesn't seem to be an active scum hunter. Why are you almost exclusively attacking tammy for this.

That is a very good question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

(as to MoS, I know he's capable of better play than what he is currently showing)

Me too...but that requires giving a fuck. I'll let you know if something piques my interest.

[Mastermind of Sin]

A lot of day one is town pulling itself apart, and the smart scum will sit back and let it happen. My other theory is that scum are also much less likely to care about mechanics and reading first posts/rules because they being the informed minority already gives a sense of security imo. Now, you could say at this point then that why would someone on the scum team bother to question those rules, but then you have one of two things happening; a slip, or fake content.

Why CD and not me, then?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What about MoS? He doesn't seem to be an active scum hunter. Why are you almost exclusively attacking tammy for this.

That is a very good question.

Not it's not, since that isn't what I was doing. Considering that I'd answered CD's question before you made this comment, you are clearly misrepresenting what I've said.

LMFAO

I didn't even fucking read whatever it was you said, and I didn't put ANY spin on it. How am I "clearly misrepresenting" you?

Tammy, I'm still waiting for you to explain who my logic falls apart.

Erm...if your logic is as good as your grasp of English grammar, I don't think Tammy even needs to try.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, only scum are going to see false pressure when you had zero chance for a lynch at the time. Also, only scum would so hard core lurk that they wouldn't even know what situation there wagon is in.

I very much disagree with this second statement. Lurker scum are far more likely to be aware of what's going on in the game while they are lurking.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal you crazy if you seriously going to bother discussing whether or not MoI is actually MoI + Magua. I'm pretty sure the two of them would throw a ragefit if someone stole this hydra account name before they got to it. It's fairly obviously them, especially since MoI has already accidentally posted in the thread under his own account.

Derp more, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Jesus I almost want to vote CD for stupidity.

[Mastermind of Sin]

These players don't seem to be in the game:

Empking
PeregrineV
Y u no scum
Jackal711
Guy_Named_Riggs

[Mastermind of Sin]

Jesus I almost want to vote CD for stupidity.

While that is my general meta, I must ask, is this is in regard to the hydra thing?

If you have to ask...

[Mastermind of Sin]

You can join my party over here in the corner, BB.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You can join my party over here in the corner, BB.

Do I get free healthcare?

Dude it's like Canada up in this bitch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are so many people talking about how they "would" support a Pine lynch, yet I'm the only one with the balls to vote him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@mastin: no.

@MoI: he did? when?

@Zdenek: LOL, when the hell did I "defend" MoI?

Im the only player that has a chance of being lynched before the deadline so why should I even bother trying to convince everyone to lynch someone else at this point? I think it be better that Im lynched so we can avoid a no lynch.

This is not a scum reaction imo. Let's find someone else to lynch today.

Like, uhhh...

Unvote, Vote: Empking

[Mastermind of Sin]

I just did.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I do agree that Internet Explorer is an all wonky browser though. While developing for the web, IE is the root cause behind every second problem, and every single incompatibility problem.

Oh god yes. IE is the bane of my existence. If I could get my company to stop supporting IE as a primary browser, our projects would release at least a month faster on average if not better.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There's also a Foxace wagon. Although he's probably town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Then you are crazy. IE is the worst modern browser to develop websites for. Firefox has its own issues, but largely it at least knows how to run a website correctly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, it's here. You jump to make an ill founded attack on Feysal for being crazy or stupid immediately after he posts his case on MoI.

Feysal you crazy if you seriously going to bother discussing whether or not MoI is actually MoI + Magua. I'm pretty sure the two of them would throw a ragefit if someone stole this hydra account name before they got to it. It's fairly obviously them, especially since MoI has already accidentally posted in the thread under his own account.

Derp more, please.

How is this a defense of MoI *OR* an attack on Feysal? This had nothing to do with whether either of them were scum, which is why I said it was stupid to be talking about it. I didn't say MoI wasn't scummy, and I didn't say Feysal

was

, nor did I imply such in any way. You're REALLY stretching to make that connection.

Unvote, Vote: Zdenek

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Can we get a deadline extension to let the replacements catch up?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's take a look at where the Foxace wagon was (plus CD's vote, which came since the last VC)

11 -

Pine

, Foxace36,

MaguaofIllusion

, Shadoweh, brizingre1,

Jackal711

, AurorusVox, Empking, mastin2,

kondi2424

, CooLDog

Here's who has already been willing to vote Zdenek (counting Pine for this)

7 - Tammy, Pine, greenknight, MoI, kondi2424, Jackal711, MoS

If you take those people off the Foxace wagon, it loses 4 votes. That puts Foxace at 7 and Zdenek at 7 (and one of those is Foxace voting himself because he doesn't think any other wagon is viable). The Foxace wagon is no more viable than the Zdenek wagon at this point, Pine. Put your vote on the guy you actually think is scum.

If Pine and Foxace switched their votes, the Zdenek wagon would have 8 to Foxace wagon's 6. I don't see any reason to push for a wagon on a probable townie, when it doesn't even have the most support.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal presents a case on MoI, and you call Feysal's post stupid for a terrible reason. It's defending MoI.

Yea, no. I called that part of his "case" stupid, because it has been OBVIOUS who is in that hydra the entire game, so to insinuate that any serious attempt was made to hide who they were is just completely retarded. That's not a defense of MoI, that's fucking common sense. Something that you seem to be lacking of late.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Exactly. Which is why I didn't "attack" Feysal after he explained as such. Hence why it's really CD's fault in the end for being the real problem here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like I said in my last post.

Foxace: Yea
Zdenek: Nay

Opposite of this. I'm a huge opponent of "well it's deadline and this guy has a lot of votes" lynches, especially when the guy in question is pushing it. It seems pretty stupid to lynch Foxace at this point, especially when we have an equally viable option in Zdenek and he's more likely to be scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How is Zdenek more likely to flip scum, Mastermind?

Because there are actual reasons to think Foxace is town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Im the only player that has a chance of being lynched before the deadline so why should I even bother trying to convince everyone to lynch someone else at this point? I think it be better that Im lynched so we can avoid a no lynch.

This is not a scum reaction imo. Let's find someone else to lynch today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Everything can be faked. You're overthinking it. You'll understand better when you're older (probably).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Getting the feeling that Foxace-scum would have taken the opportunity to get on the Zdenek wagon or at least park his vote on one of his scumlist, especially since we've been repeatedly telling Foxace to quit with the selfvoting so he had every excuse to do so. I also don't like the fact that a bunch of people hopped on the wagon for no reason other than "we might end up with a no-lynch otherwise." Reluctant to lynch him but will still do so rather than no-lynch if we have no other choice.

Yet another reason not to lynch Foxace.

@MoI: I'm still trying to calibrate my scumdar for the addition of Magua to this hydra. I have no good reason to think you're town, though. I could care less about people trying to lynch you, I just want people to stop talking about irrelevant things like who your heads are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

5 more votes to lynch Zdenek. C'mon!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiousity, how does...

killers would be trying to not attract too much attention

...reconcile with...

I don't really feel like catching up. Someone tell me what's happened so far and who I should vote. Pretty content to sheep for now cuz fuck it.

...blatantly calling attention to myself?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Really disappointed that we lynched Foxace over Zdenek. That was a pretty stupid idea.

Vote: Zdenek

In case we die tonight (perish the thought), we're dead serious about Norman and Cooldog both being town. Seriously serious. Other head believes that Norman is a liability even being town, and neither of us will shed a tear if he gets vigged, but, still, there you have it.

We also think Feysal is town, for Super Secret(tm) reasons that we won't go into.

Noticed this when I was going back through MoI's posts to see who might have wanted to kill them. Just putting it out there for people to keep in mind.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There's a CoolDoG lynch? I haven't even read D2 yet. I just looked at the death scene and went from there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I need to look at who jumped on the Foxace wagon and pushed it through counter to the Zdenek wagon yesterday...but I cba yet. Imma go take a bath. I nominate someone else to do the research.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lol cooldog, I said I want people to state whether they think the doc should claim or not

I'm not saying that the doc should claim

I'm saying the exact opposite

I also explicitly said let's not discuss the night kill because doctor could have protected a crosskill, i.e. it's all wifom so FUCK YOU HAZE and your mudslinging




So in summary

CD is a bitch scumbag
Haze is being scummy
There's a chance whasserface, the one I offended D1, is actually town

And MoS needs to vote CD or be labelled scum

What makes you think a doc was the reason there was only one kill?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I just went back and look at CD's post. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't understand how you think he "tipped his hand". Not only does his response seem perfectly reasonable to me, but it's probably close to what I would have said. Care to elucidate?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck I'm agreeing with Junpei again. I need to stop doing that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What are you talking about, Shadoweh? I thought I was the one who protected Pine?

Vote: AurorusVox

Meant to do this earlier but I'm watching the Sing-Off and got distracted by an awesome rendition of Stayin' Alive.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The wagon on AV stinks. AV's awesome. And town. AV's also the counterwagon to Cooldog, which supports the "AV town" theory quite nicely.

If you subscribe to the counterwagon theory, why are you not hunting the people that caused Foxace to die when Zdenek became a viable lynch? Oh wait, it's

because you were one of them

...

LoL hypocrit much? You can't use counterwagon theories when the alignments of both wagoned players are as of yet unknown. Not to mention that AV's reason for thinking CD is scum is complete bullshit...do you disagree?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote Count 1.8

Norman (5) -

Empking, kondi2424, LynchMePls, brizingre1, CooLDoG

AurorusVox (2) -

greenknight, Shadoweh

CooLDoG (7) -

Shadow1psc, trekker, PeregrineV, ManiacalLemon, Lord Mhork, Norman, AurorusVox

Shadow1psc (1) -

sorgster

Pine (1) -

Mastermind of Sin

MaguaofIllusion (1) -

Feysal

Tammy (1) -

Haze

Zdenek (1) -

Tammy

Shadoweh (1) -

MaguaofIllusion

Foxace36 (4) -

Pine, Foxace36, Jackal711, Zdenek

Guess whose wagon built up in response to yesterday's CooLDoG wagon?

Vote Count 1.11

Norman (3) -

Empking, LynchMePls, Lord Mhork

AurorusVox (1) -

greenknight

CooLDoG (4) -

Shadow1psc, trekker, PeregrineV, ManiacalLemon

Shadow1psc (1) -

sorgster

Pine (1) -

Mastermind of Sin

MaguaofIllusion (2) -

Feysal, Zdenek

Tammy (1) -

Haze

Zdenek (1) -

Tammy

Foxace36 (7) -

Pine, Foxace36, MaguaofIllusion, Shadoweh, brizingre1, Jackal711, AurorusVox

trekker (2) -

CooLDoG, kondi2424

greenknight (1) -

Norman

Hrmmm...

Vote Count 1.16

Norman (2) -

LynchMePls, Shadow1psc

MaguaofIllusion (1) -

Feysal

Zdenek (9) -

Tammy, greenknigh, MaguaofIllusion, kondi2424, Mastermind of Sin, Moneybags, Haze, Pine, CooLDoG

Foxace36 (8) -

Shadoweh, brizingre1, AurorusVox, Empking, mastin2x, Zdenek, Lord Mhork, Zar

Jackal711 (1) -

PeregrineV

Shadoweh (1) -

trekker

Tammy (1) -

Foxace36

Guess whose wagon built up in response to yesterday's Zdenek wagon?

Final Day 1 Vote Count

Norman (1) -

Ooba

MaguaofIllusion (1) -

Feysal

Zdenek (6) -

greenknight, MaguaofIllusion, Mastermind of Sin, Haze, Pine, CooLDoG

Foxace36 (14) -

Shadoweh, brizingre1, AurorusVox, Empking, mastin2x, Zdenek, Lord Mhork, Zar, BBmolla, Junpei, Jackal711, Shadow1psc, Moneybags, Foxace36

Jackal711 (1) -

PeregrineV

Shadoweh (1) -

trekker

Zar (1) -

Tammy

Hrmmm...

Anyone who thinks Zdenek or CooLDoG might be scum should be scouring this Foxace wagon right now. If they are not, then their outrage is probably feigned (hint: mastin)...

People on the Foxace wagon before the CD-counter:

Pine

Foxace36

Jackal711

People who join counter to the CD wagon:

MaguaofIllusion

Shadoweh
brizingre1
AurorusVox

People on the Foxace wagon before the Zdenek-counter:

Shadoweh
brizingre1
AurorusVox
Empking
mastin2
Zdenek
Lord Mhork
Zar

People who joined counter to the Zdenek wagon:

BBmolla
Junpei
Jackal711
Shadow1psc
Moneybags

Foxace36

Further analysis later when I get another spurt of helpfulness.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The following players also helped kill those respective wagons by unvoting but did not contribute directly to the counter-wagon:

CD-wagon: Norman, Lord Mhork
Zdenek-wagon: Tammy, kondi2424

Additionally, it's interesting to note that AurorusVox (CD-wagon) and Moneybags (Zdenek-wagon) were the only players who both unvoted the old wagon *and* helped push the counter-wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, Junpei's slot counts as well, I just realized that he replaced kondi2424 and then jumped from Zdenek to Foxace.

[Mastermind of Sin]

re. AV's defence of his play today I still don't like it.

Firstly, the interest in discussing missing night kills is typically more of a scum perspective than town, scum have more of a motivation to find out WHY a kill failed and what they're up against, whereas town are simply happy that scum missed out on a kill. And it's not necessary for scum to actually induce a claim in order to rolefish successfully; many town players who draw PR have a tendency to unintentionally give themselves away in these discussions. For example, as scum in AFFC I identified both town vigs very early on because of offhand comments they made regarding vigs.

Secondly, even if one is to scumhunt by the tone of posts, I don't see the point of artificially generating content by asking a question with an obvious right answer on day 2 to "lock people into taking a position" when there's already plenty of material from day 1 to scrutinize. And AV's choice of question has the effect of drawing attention back to the missing nightkill.

This.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Pet theory: Tammy and Zdenek are scumbuddies.

They build up a fight against each other all of Day 1, arguing a lot of semantics and playstyle differences, and largely the other players in the game dismiss one or both of their attacks for being largely irrelevant and not indicative of being scum. Tammy sits on the Zdenek wagon until it becomes the leading wagon and then switches her vote to Zar, claiming "this is a good counter-wagon". Not only is she trying to build a counter-wagon to a wagon that SHE started, but she also moves her vote to someone with zero votes and called it a "counter-wagon". This effectively helped kill the Zdenek momentum and kept her off of the Foxace wagon so that she didn't get caught up in the backlash when he came up town. She votes Zdenek in VC 1.5 (Mar 22), and then keeps her vote there until he becomes the lead wagon finally in VC 1.16 (Apr 2), and then suddenly decides she needs to build a counter-wagon? I think this was a convenient way for her to distance and keep her vote parked in one place, and then it almost backfired when her scumbuddy's wagon started to gain momentum. Tammy has also been pushing this theory that the scum were all trying to hide behind low activity or being disengaged. I think she could be purposefully pushing this theory to obfuscate her team's strategy.

In alphabetical order, here are some good candidates for a third scumbuddy (if we're subscribing to the parallel towns theory of 3 scum each):

AurorusVox

- Distances from Tammy without ever really pursuing her strongly, pretty much ignores the Zdenek wagon all game

BBmolla

- Buddy-buddy with Tammy, questions Zdenek over Foxace as a vote choice, dismisses the Zdenek-Tammy fight (lending credence to the above theory), first to vote Foxace after Zdenek becomes the lead wagon, doesn't explain vote at all

Jackal711

- One of those that supported the Zdenek wagon and then helped kill it by switching to Foxace

Junpei

- His reasoning for choosing Foxace over Zdenek was basically listing off VI-like play from Foxace and then somehow concluding that it made him scum.

Lord Mhork

- See yesterday when he decided to pick Foxace over Zdenek and not only never explained his Zdenek-town read, but also couldn't come up with a reasonable counterargument to the Foxace towntells.

Moneybags

- Was on the Zdenek wagon and then switched to Foxace, went back to Zdenek D2 and then just as easily jumped off again to tag along with the low-hanging CD wagonfruit.

There are several other players who have not really said anything about the Tammy-Zdenek conflict for most of the game, but nothing stands out as particularly tying them into this proposed scumteam although it's certainly possible.

Right now I like one of AV/BB/Moneybags as the most likely scumbuddies to Tammy and Zdenek.

Unvote

for now because I'm not sure if AV is the one I want to pursue most out of this group. I'd be really happy with a lynch on any of the five, but I think it should probably be Tammy or Zdenek first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Besides, that, what are you even doing examining counterwagons and partnerships before anyone is even confirmed scum? Sure, I suppose it's useful, but it's far more dangerous to town than helpful because it leads you down wrong paths in your assumptions, and is more often than not fake contribution. Did it cross your mind that possibly both major wagons on day one were innocent?

We know that Foxace was innocent, and there's a chance Zdenek is too. That means all of the analysis is flawed from the outset as are your possibly partner theories.

If I waited until Zdenek magically died and came up scum, how would that be productive to getting scum lynched

now

? All analysis that is incorrect is flawed, but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to explore these theories by extrapolating on what we know and analyzing the relationships we have available to us. I really want to know how you expect to find scum if all relational analysis is flawed in your eyes until we have a confirmed scum to work with.

It certainly has crossed my mind that both Zdenek and Foxace could have been town, but the way the Foxace wagon was pushed through makes me think that is the lesser possibility at this point. Many people lynched Foxace

for

his towntells, in spite of people directly pointing out how and why they made him town. What we saw was a VI wagon pushed through counter to another equally viable wagon that had far less reason to think he was town.

Not once did I see someone present a scum motivation for Foxace's play. It was all stuff like "self-voting", "playing stupid", and so on. None of these things are particularly strong scumtells, yet they were used as low-hanging fruit to push through his lynch instead of taking out Zdenek. That screams possible scum protection.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* I don't think it's really productive for me to argue with you about whether or not you might be scum. It feels like this is going to devolve into a bunch of "uh huh"s and "nuh uh"s, because your defense so far has been insubstantial in that there's no way for you to back it up or for me to argue against it. Of course you would say that you wouldn't do the thing that makes you scummy, and of course you're going to call my theory flawed. That doesn't really provide any basis for a productive discussion of the facts as they've been laid out, however.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Of course it's not productive for you to argue that because you know there's no real rational reason to back it up. Why would someone start a long two week argument with their partner that would get out of hand? Why would I in post 1059 ask people to reevaluate their stance on Foxace knowing that it could end up with people jumping on a Zdenek wagon if he was my partner? Why would I jump off at a supposedly crucial time, which if I were scum and his partner, would know it could come back to me? Why wouldn't I stay on the wagon, pushing for it so that I could gain town cred if it worked out? These are all questions you have to ask yourself, and there's no reason for a town person to be unwilling to answer these questions and see if they make sense. And, there aren't a whole lot of facts in your analysis anyway. The only facts that are verifiable are who went on to what wagon at what time, and if you reduce mafia to just those facts you're always going to be flawed and probably will come up with the wrong answer the majority of the time.

1) I've already explained why you would start that argument. It's a great distancing cover.
2) Platitudes
3) Because you didn't actually want your scumbuddy lynched. Not everyone mercilessly busses their partners. I think your distancing was not meant to put Zdenek in danger of a lynch. After all, you had sat there calling him scum for days with you being the only vote, and then all of a sudden there was traction and you decide it's no longer worth it? That's a hell of a coincidence.

MoS - I have a question for you though. If you really wanted the Zdenek lynch so bad and didn't want the Foxace lynch to happen, why didn't you do more to help ensure what you wanted? You know that I jumped off of the Zdenek wagon in post 1201 and that the Foxace wagon had gotten one more vote in 1200 because you responded to my post 1209 in your post 1211.

The only thing you did was in post 1208 say "hey 5 more votes to a Zdenek lynch. c'mon." This is hardly trying to make sure one wagon got pushed through over the other. Why are you now trying to blame other people for a lynch not happening that you wanted to happen?

Seems odd MoS.

I am not claiming to have been the most responsible person D1. That would just be silly. However, you can't deny that I very clearly pointed out Foxace's VI towntell well before he was lynched. I argued against his lynch in 1045, 1127, 1135, and my back and forth with Lord Mhork. Why did you pass over all of those posts to call out 1208 as my supposed "only" attempt to make sure the Foxace wagon failed for its better alternative?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The wagon on AV stinks. AV's awesome. And town. AV's also the counterwagon to Cooldog, which supports the "AV town" theory quite nicely.

If you subscribe to the counterwagon theory, why are you not hunting the people that caused Foxace to die when Zdenek became a viable lynch? Oh wait, it's

because you were one of them

...

LoL hypocrit much? You can't use counterwagon theories when the alignments of both wagoned players are as of yet unknown. Not to mention that AV's reason for thinking CD is scum is complete bullshit...do you disagree?

Here's the problem with that. The counterwagon theory implies that CD or Zde are scum (it's a decent argument, not much to go on), and it's a much more narrow hunt than taking the 7-14 people propagating the counterwagons to, implicitly, 'save their buddy'. Obviously not everyone on the Foxace wagon is scum, and I would be really surprised if scum went out of their way to bail out either CD or Zde. At the end of the day, if you're going to subscribe to the theory at all, starting with the people on a 'counter wagon' as opposed to the targets themselves is downright silly.

1) Why are you jumping in to defend mastin?
2) My point is that mastin is concluding AV-town based on his

assumption

that CD is scum,

BECAUSE

they are competing wagons. That is not a correct application of counter-wagon theory. I'm not saying that everyone on the Foxace wagon was scum, but the way it got pushed through in spite of reasonable evidence that he was town is incredibly shady, and that's the best place to start looking for scum today. Essentially, mastin is trying to downplay Day 1's evidence and start making conclusions about player's alignments based on a series of reasoning that is several iterations removed from any hard facts of this game. That is what I am questioning.

@Tammy:

1) Your argument is boiling down to "I wouldn't make mistakes as scum." There really isn't any substance to that defense, as making mistakes is generally how scum get caught. I refer you to Children of Hurin mafia, where I was caught as scum and then spent the next several game-days arguing about how I would never have done something so stupid as scum. It happens, and it's not a legitimate argument to say "I wouldn't make that mistake".

2) Honestly, I did not even notice your Zar vote yesterday, or I probably would have said something. I wasn't really paying close attention to the game as I was in the middle of a gold build week at work before our final production release. I still haven't read probably a good 30-35% of Day 1 so far, and I have absolutely no motivation to go back and catch up on it. Even when I was more active toward the end of the day, I mostly just skimmed for stuff addressed to me to respond to it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Except for the fact that I had the

foresight

to call out Foxace being a bad lynch BEFORE he came up town. So really, it's not

hindsight

bias at all. LoL...

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, I wasn't hounding people as much because I was barely participating in D1. That didn't make the reasons for Foxace to be town any less valid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, I don't think Pine's the play for now. He could have just said he got a result on MoI...I don't think Pine-scum would have gone to such lengths to make up a fake RB claim, only to say that he investigated the dead guy and catch heat for that. The only way Pine-scum would claim he investigated MoI is if he was the one who made the kill and was afraid he got tracked last night. However, that would be a colossally stupid move for the scumteam to let Pine make he kill, so I really don't think it makes sense for him to be scum right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

.I don't think Pine-scum would have gone to such lengths to make up a fake RB claim

Uh claiming RB isn't a difficult connection at all... Also in this post you go from "he wouldn't claim RB'd because a tracker could track him to MoI so he'd just claim a result on MoI" to "the scumteam wouldn't let Pine make the kill on MoI".

Nice straw man, but that's not what I said at all. You're not even linking the causality correctly.

I'm saying that he wouldn't claim to have targeted MoI BECAUSE he's claiming to have been RB'd. Why take heat for claiming to have targeted a dead player if you're not even going to claim to have a result? It would have been much safer to pick someone like Zdenek and then say he got RB'd.

As a separate point, I'm saying that the only way he WOULD claim to have targeted MoI is IF he thought he'd been tracked, but this theory is flawed because no reasonably intelligent scumteam would choose their highest profile player to make the nightkill.

Point #1 goes to argue why Pine-scum would not claim to have targeted MoI. Point #2 goes to argue against the one solid counter-argument to Point #1 by showing it as also improbable.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Tammy: It's not the same at all. You're not even providing logical reasoning in your defense. Your argument literally boils down to "I wouldn't do that as scum." You just keep saying that if I read the thread it would prove my theory false. That's not a logical argument, and you're essentially trying to shift the burden of proof for your own claim onto me. Just because I can't prove that you *would* act that way as scum (because that's impossible), that isn't proof that you *wouldn't*. You're using a logical fallacy called "special pleading" to justify your argument by referring to data that is inherently unverifiable.

On the other hand, my counter-argument to the Pine accusation is solidly backed by the most basic mafia gameplay theory. That doesn't mean it's impossible for Pine to be scum, just improbable because it doesn't make sense for him to take those actions. It makes sense for you to act the way you have as scum, you've just been caught doing it. That's a huge difference.

That's a lot more likely than your "scum wouldn't RB and target dead claim LOL too obvious... haha".

What does this even mean?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, I thought that was the serious part of your post, because the first part was just laughable.

"...so he doesn't have to fake formatting of the result"?

Have you played mafia on this site before? Seriously, LoL!

[Mastermind of Sin]

1) You just told Tammy that just because you can't prove your claim doesn't mean that she is exempt from having to prove your claim false. The evidence you have presented is laughable, Mastermind of Sin.

You are either really good or really terrible at misrepresenting people, I'm not sure which. Because you have a really hard time summarizing what other people say...

It's Tammy that has the burden of proof on this particular point. We are discussing her claim, not mine. She has

claimed

that she would not act that way as scum. If she cannot prove that claim, then it is just nonsensical garbage.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sigh, you've been out of the game for too long, Mastermind of Sin; that or you've degraded in intelligence this past year. You're using highly fallacious arguments, and now I'm going to ignore you for a while.

I'm pretty sure you haven't even read the ruleset. But, nice job running away when you know you can't win.

[Mastermind of Sin]

2) Nice job completely missing the crux of my post and instead deciding to deflect my whole point with a clarification of one line which clearly means to represent your argument in a caricature fashion. I almost want to lynch you just on your faulty arguments alone, Mastermind of Sin.

You know what using caricature in a logical argument is called?

Appeal to ridicule

Yea, that's right, it's another fallacy. You're pretty full of those today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Junpei poisoning the well, now? You sure have a lot of fallacies in your bag of tricks.

Tammy, claiming that your behaviors would be completely ridiculous for scum doesn't make it so. It's a perfectly reasonable scum plan for a team to attempt, and I've seen it before.

Also, your retrospective determinism regarding the Foxace lynch is really fucking annoying.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's called being defeatist. What did voting Zar accomplish other than secure a lack of votes for Zdenek?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's possible we are, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know my alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to take a moment to ask where the FUCK are these players?

04. PeregrineV
07. ooba
15. BBmolla
16. Shadoweh
18. Norman
19. Jackal711
20. Lord Mhork
25. Zar

Especially Jackal711, BBmolla, ooba, and Norman, who all have not posted more recently than Foxace -_-

Vote: BBmolla

I know he's been reading and posting in the Theme Park forum, so where the fuck is he in this game?

And no, don't think I'm letting this Tammy-Zdenek thing go.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mmm, that was deliciously good timing. If I were MoI, I would probably say something like this:

I doubt very much it just happens to be coincidence that all of you suddenly found the thread without a Mod prod right after being collectively called out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Tammy, I've seen scum threaten to (or actually) replace out because of getting frustrated with the game and certain players. Hell, I did it myself recently in Consulmaker because I got pissed off at GreyICE being an absolute fuckwit. It really doesn't have anything to do with alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You two pretty much spent the whole time fighting over each other's playstyle. That's not particularly hard to fake.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* I don't think it's really productive for me to argue with you about whether or not you might be scum. It feels like this is going to devolve into a bunch of "uh huh"s and "nuh uh"s

*whistles*

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL...like hell I was going to let Tammy call me out for bullshit reasons and not respond to it. I was willing to let it sit when I made that post. She's the one who perpetuated the argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Junpei, are you voting Mastermind of Sin as a policy lynch or do you believe he is scum?.

I think he's just pissed that he keeps getting caught in fallacies.

@moneybags:

That's CD discussing with Pine about his choice of Night target. And saying who he would have targetted if he (CD)

was

the cop.
Please read carefully.

Also @Tammy&MoS I won't bother with any of P59 jsut like I've ignored Tammy v Zdnek kay?

I would read Post #1355 at the very least, even if you don't read the entire back and forth. Out of fairness to Tammy, you should probably read her Post #1389, as that probably sums up most of her defense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Since when is pointing out logical fallacies mudslinging? I always thought mudslinging was more like this:

The evidence you have presented is laughable, Mastermind of Sin.

Sigh, you've been out of the game for too long, Mastermind of Sin; that or you've degraded in intelligence this past year.

Tammy ignore MoS who doesn't understand laws of well formed arguments.

[Mastermind of Sin]

OH WAIT I ALMOST FORGOT

HEY JUNPEI THAT'S CALLED

AD HOMINEM

THIS LESSON IN LOGICAL FALLACIES WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE RE-RECKONING

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uh, Ad Hominem is different than verbal attacks. Ad hominem implies the absence of other premises and conclusions; it implies the sole premise being the arguer is himself and that the conclusion is not self evident. Not only that, but the premises and conclusions of those statements are valid and not a model of ad hominem.

After the game I can give you lessons if you want MoS,; but for now back to ignoring you.

Wikipedia disagrees.

"Negative campaigning, also known more colloquially as "

mudslinging

", is trying to win an advantage by referring to negative aspects of an opponent or of a policy rather than emphasizing one's own positive attributes or preferred policies.

In the broadest sense, the term covers any rhetoric in which one refers to one's opponent in an

ad hominem

manner.

"



"An ad hominem [...] is an

attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic

or belief of the person supporting it."

[Mastermind of Sin]

BBmolla still lurking. Let's pressure him with a wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea Pine is actually thinking through his shit. I really don't think he's scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, CooLDoG is an idiot or scum. Not sure which yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because his actions don't make sense to me from a scum perspective. Sure, he's not playing optimally, but I am totally following along with what his thought process is and why he's doing it, even if I wouldn't have played it that way. He's already claimed, so he's playing to his alignment by trying to figure out who's lawful and who's not so that he can go after the scummy players who are actually against his wincon. He can then use his ability to investigate people who don't claim to be lawful so that he can find out if they lied and then lynch them. This forces the scum team he's hunting to either risk lying and getting investigated by him or tell the truth about being lawful and then be subject to getting called out on scumtells. I just think the story of Pine-town makes a lot more sense than the convoluted things Pine-scum would have to make up to get where he is now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What do you think of that possible slip CooLDoG just brought up about how Pine didn't seem to consider the possibility of Chaotic Evil messing with his night action?

I don't see how that's a possible slip at all. I thought it was obvious that if anyone roleblocked him it would likely be Chaotic Evil. Pine doesn't even have any motivation to try and catch Chaotic Evil players in a lie, not really.

Right, he isn't playing optimal town play, thus he can't be scum because this is not optimal scum play. Scum make mistakes, that is why we scum hunt. A perfect scum game will make this game more or less random. Plus if he can't play town optimally (your words here) why would you say that he would play optimal scum play?

On bolded. Well that would have worked had he not claimed with one vote on him. I can't stress this enough: HE CLAIMED WITH ONE VOTE ON HIM. Now that everybody knows that there law/chaos alignment can be checked they just won't lie. I fail to see how that ability can be used now. The only way we catch scum in a "claim-lie" now is a Good/evil/neutral cop. Or some sort of screwy power role detector. That's it. We just lost a big advantage because (again), HE CLAIMED WITH ONE VOTE ON HIM.

For the record, I don't believe his claim one bit.

Pine, question: How many people did you have undecided reads on at the end of day one?
Please, don't read too much into this question. Answer honestly because it matters. Also, make sure that you count lurker slots/unoccupied slots.

I'm not arguing that Pine's imperfect play is a sign of him being town. I'm arguing that his thought-processes make more sense from a town perspective than from scum, even in a non-optimal manner.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I think CooLDoG fails to see the value in forcing all the scum to claim their alignment correctly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, and? I don't see how this stops Pine from screwing over the Lawful mafia.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...but it occurs to me that if you can't figure it out I probably shouldn't explain it to you, since you're likely scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope. I'm not going to tell scum how to gameplan around Pine.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We'll see you soon, Tammy. In the meantime you should help me lynch BBmolla.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, why aren't you voting Zdenek?

Because BBmolla is still lurking.

I don't like this post from MoS: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3960496, I don't like the way he suddenly backtracks from Tammy and trys to encourage the BB lynch, who's only crime so far has been lurking, and his defence of Pine seems slightly dodgy.

I refer you to the following:

And no, don't think I'm letting this Tammy-Zdenek thing go.

As soon as BBmolla starts contributing regularly, I'm more than willing to go back to Zdenek-Tammy. However, I'm not shedding any tears over my BBmolla vote right now since I can pretty easily connect him as a partner to the Zdenek-Tammy scumteam.

Do you think all of the other people who agree with me that Pine is obviously town are scum as well?

@Mos, scum have no reason to lie what soever. Why should they lie? Give me a reason why falsifying your Chaos/law attribute would help the scum. Keep in mind that even if one tam is close to winning the game there still isn't a reason for scum to fake claim because the game will continue after one team has won the game. Ohh, yeah, and even if we could force someone to fake claim it won't help, because pine has refused to use his power role to check fake claims, which is the only thing that his power role is fucking good for. Also, Scum will not fake claim their C/L attribute because pine has all ready claimed (with

one

vote on him).

See this post

@all, I ask you this: Would town claim a power role with one vote on them? Would town refuse to use their power role optimally even after it has been explained countless times how it is best used? Would town lurk all of day one, only coming out when his name was called?

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions, then you need to vote for pine. Because guess what, he has done every single one of them.

Yes, yes, and yes. None of those are optimal town play, but a town player would do these things.

Why are people reading me when I haven't posted anything substancial except for the obvious?

This is another good reason why BBmolla is probably scum.

@PeregrineV: I disagree strongly. It's just as useful to the town because it either gives us a chance to catch scum in a lie outright, or it forces them to claim their real alignment so that those of us who are hunting their kind (slightly more than the other scum anyway) can narrow our focus in on them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL I <3 Faraday

[Mastermind of Sin]

mmm, that OMGUS from BBmolla looks so delicious that it's positively tantalizing...I'm becoming more and more happy with my vote every day. That was not a town reaction.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...and yet your reason for thinking I'm scum is because I'm voting you...very funny.

I don't think you're stupid enough to not understand the dynamics of early-in-the-day voting. Therefore the only logical conclusion here is that you're scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Who said I didn't think you were scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's not cognitive dissonance. Just because Pine's role is a reason for scum not to lie about their alignment doesn't mean that they will all tell the truth. You're casting absolutes where there aren't any, Zdenek. That's

really

reaching.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

Also this apparently LoL

[Mastermind of Sin]

How exactly did you come to all those relational conclusions with two scumgroups?

Hell, how did you even come to those relational conclusions to begin with? Sounds to me like you just decided I was scum and then decided that everyone I was fighting with was town if I was scum. Also,

WHAT THE FUCK

:

Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm yea, I remember Zdenek claiming townie, but I didn't really pay attention to his alignment because I didn't care what it was. Now I understand why Zdenek was going apeshit about Pine. Still doesn't make him scum, but at least now I understand why you did it.

I'm going to have to go back and reevaluate my read on you.

For one I don't know who HL is. I don't know how you came up with your equations. Although, I guess you're saying that CooLDog is obvtown?

Also, who is GV?

But you say that if MoS is scum then Zdenek is town, but if Zdenek is scum then MoS is scum? I'm confused.

Besides, as I told MoS earlier, these types of relational tells tend to distract town more than lead them down a proper path before we have one scum flip.

For once I agree with Tammy (except for the last part, because I don't think a scum flip is required as long as they are based on *some* hard evidence). Now I'm really sad about the current state of my pet theory.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What makes you think he lied about his alignment?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What makes you think he lied about his alignment?

So that they aren't instantly lynched if the other town-scum pair leave the game first.

That was not the question. Enough with the irrelevant conclusions, answer the actual question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, what you're saying is that you concluded Pine is scum and then justified that conclusion by saying he lied about his alignment. You have no actual reason for thinking he lied about his alignment except for your

assumption

that he is scum and the fact that he claimed CG.

I bet it doesn't hurt your confirmation bias that the scum group you need to hunt is LE, either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That still doesn't justify the conclusion that he lied about his alignment. You have no actual evidence for this sort of ancillary conclusion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^Nowhere in here is there anything where you state that you think I'm scum.

You voted me for lurking when you had scumreads on Tammy-Zdenek. You are scum.

*ahem*

BBmolla

- Buddy-buddy with Tammy, questions Zdenek over Foxace as a vote choice, dismisses the Zdenek-Tammy fight (lending credence to the above theory), first to vote Foxace after Zdenek becomes the lead wagon, doesn't explain vote at all

Confirm Vote: BBmolla

[Mastermind of Sin]

Probably because none of it actually makes any sense...

[Mastermind of Sin]

no worries . Peoples reactions to the silly things i do let me form better opinions of them .

...and yet you are still voting me. Clearly your strategy is not working properly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are there not more votes on BBmolla?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Just out of interest, when you did this, did you take into account that there are two scum teams?

MoS' case and vote on BBMolla is awful

UNVOTE

VOTE:Mastermind of Sin

Otherwise, Shadoweh is probably town and after a quick ISO, AVoX actually looks like argumentative town.

Although BBMolla doesn't look that town, he doesn't look particularly scummy either.

Have you looked a BB's posts lately? He's hella trying to fly under the radar. Even after I poked him into existence all he did was OMGUS vote me and then disappear again when I proved his accusations false.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS: Brizingrescum

Certainly seems possible.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Feysal is too good at this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PV explain your 1721 to me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

It started with his voting Faoxace for a reason I didn't like, and the fact every post was either "going to catch up" or a vote on the largest wagon. Moved from lurking to coasting.

Why are you ignoring the BBmolla wagon, then?

[Mastermind of Sin]

IIT we learn that Haze and CooLDoG are idiots and Tammy is becoming less likely scum every day.

This Pine wagon is fucking retarded and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what gets us a lot of information? Lynching scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...

Hold up

Zdenek is making sense

He had the opportunity to check if someone was lying

and didn't

Has he tried to explain why he didn't do that?
Give me links, people.

Yes, if he had realized that Zdenek had alignment claimed (he wasn't the only one who didn't know either)...

[Mastermind of Sin]

So...what exactly did he lie about? Your premise looks completely faulty here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS; you say Pine is town because he thought through his action.

I say that is false, sir.

If he thought it through, he would have been for ethical massclaim and also used it against the claimed ethic Zdenek.

Look: if scum tell the truth about their ethical alignment, when an opposing ethical side wins, all of THEIR ethic will leave the game.
If scum have told the truth, then at that moment, they will be outed as scum.
Therefore, their only hope is to lie about their ethic.

In an example:

Say, CE scum claim C

CG win
All CG leave the game, and all LE leave the game.
Scum, claiming the truthful C, do not leave the game.
Scum are outed as scum and lose.

If LE win
CG all leave the game
Scum, claiming the truthful C, do not leave the game.
Scum are outed as scum and lose.

Scum's ONLY option is to lie.

Now, if Pine had a role that could detect ethical lies, he should have been FOR an ethics massclaim to force scum to choose between (a) telling the truth and being outed if they are not the first team to win; or (b) tell a lie and be caught by his role

He did not do this.
Therefore I feel that he does not have that role.
Therefore I feel that he is a liar.
And is scum.

I'm not saying you didn't outline the optimal play. However, putting thought into your actions doesn't mean you're going to think of everything. Until this was brought up today, I had never thought about what you just said here. Why should I believe that it's obvious Pine *did* and then lied about it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hi. Re-read the first 5 pages.

Av looks sorta town from it. Skenvoy looks super town. BBmolla wagon is probably dumb.

Wrong. BBmolla lurked, got called out on it, OMGUS'd his accuser, then went back to lurking. He's just trying to sit back until the heat goes away. Obvscum play.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^LOLOLOLOL OBVSCUM

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you didn't think of it and that's fine because your role isn't designed around the mechanic of mass claiming ethics.

If your role was designed to determine ethical alignments, you WOULD have considered how best to use it.

No, I mean even when I was thinking about how to best use Pine's role earlier today (see my previous posts), I didn't consider what you just said above.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's a flimsy excuse. If it's PINE'S role, PINE should have thought how to best use it.

He should have at least realised that it's vital for scum to lie about their ethics, especially given the discussions in the pre-crash thread.

Who actually read the pre-crash thread? LoL...

[Mastermind of Sin]

CD isn't even paying attention to this thread LMAO.

[Mastermind of Sin]

chesskid you should vote BBmolla cuz he's scum. You don't even need to read the thread.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So i'm swamped until Sunday like with literally no time.

Sooooooooooo

I will read and stuff then but I will probably skim woo woo

anything I should know?

Pine is not scum.

BBmolla is scum.

AV may or may not be scum.

Tammy is looking more and more town. Zdenek has yet to redeem himself.

A fair chunk of players in this game are idiots.

There, you're caught up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOS I stopped voting you, stop giving me reason to put my vote back on you.

I'm not here to pander to you. I'm here to lynch scum. Maybe if we were all trying to do that people would stop derping around with the Pine wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty sure you don't know how to play mafia at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yes, so did I, and I remain onconvinced.

This. Pine still reads obvtown, this wagon on him is getting more and more massively idiotic by the minute.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Voting BBmolla would be a good start.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zdenek, you can quote yourself all you want. That's not going to make Pine any less obvtown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Tammy: I barely remember Day 1, but I'm pretty sure I was just sheeping MoI when I voted Pine yesterday. Reading Pine's posts today is what convinced me he was town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Pine was scum, I'm pretty sure we'd not be seeing this kind of lethargic wagon movement in the game right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@mos, why is pine obv town. We have heard that phrase over and over again but we haven't heard much substantive arguments as to why she is obv town.

Also, bb wagon I could go with.

My god, are you even reading the thread? I have given you a TON of arguments as to why she is obvtown. Just look at my fucking ISO, FFS!

4 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes before Night 2

This is where we really need to ask the question, "who should we lynch?"
I personally prefer a pine lynch. However, I could go for a bb lynch.

We really need to decide this now while we still have time left to talk.

THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY THAT I WILL VOTE PINE. THE SCUM-DRIVEN APATHY TO DRAG THIS DAY OUT TO DEADLINE IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS, AND I WILL NOT FOLD TO DEADLINE PRESSURE TO CHANGE MY VOTE. I WOULD RATHER GET FUCKED IN THE ASS BY A MIDGET ELEPHANT THAN VOTE PINE TODAY. THIS LYNCH IS NOT HAPPENING ON MY WATCH.

Also, BBmolla is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No new arguments have been brought against Pine for me to debunk. You all just keep filling the thread with the same trash that I've already showed to be baseless accusations that don't take into account proper behavioral analysis. I'm not going to flood the game by just rephrasing the exact same arguments.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, it sucks. The easy way is to just vote BBmolla.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The presumption that being logical makes you town (and the inverse) is pretty sad reasoning by brizingre.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shadow why is cooldog scum? I forget and stuff, refresh my memory.

Them reasons for voting BBmolla certainly are reasons. They just happen to be pretty poor ones, oh well.

Stop being BBmolla's scumbuddy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

mastin, I thought you were actually going to try. So disappointed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

But BBMolla replaced Skenvoy, who if memory serves was as good as confirmed town in the original thread.

Skenvoy looked town based on 5 (out of 88) pages at the start of the game where he was under no pressure at all, so his replacement gets a free pass?

Why are you calling out mastin on this and not Farafly? I'd think this reflects badly on both of them, wouldn't you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

getting strong early reads reflects badly? lol

Yes, when you're using it to clear his scummy actions and ignore them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

AurorusVox (5) - Lost Butterfly, Jackal711, Feysal, BBmolla, Shadoweh

This is a terrible wagon. The only person on there I have any modicum of faith in right now is Feysal, and he admitted himself he's not paying enough attention today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, really I am

sometimes

logical

Wasn't talking to you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are people going off on random tangents like this so close to deadline? I'm not saying you have to pick one of the top wagons, but let's see some honest to goodness scumhunting, for fuck's sake! It seems like half the game isn't even trying and the other half is being retarded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BB is probably town >.>
I don't see why we're lynching obvious scum.
And I never got anyones reads >.<

Freudian slip? >.>

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll switch, I'm just not going to facilitate a quick lynch/lynch without hearing the claim where (up until his last couple posts), I didn't feel BB was leaning so strongly scum. Then again, he could be pulling a Foxace, so yeah.

There aren't really *any* parallels between the way Foxace acted and how BBmolla is treating today.

But I was so convinced jackal was scum...

VOTE: Pine

I suppose I'm not actually going to get any of my stronger scumreads lynched today, I may as well pile on to this wagon :/.

I'd be willing to vote TD today if the BBmolla lynch doesn't happen. Just sayin'. We should really just lynch BBmolla, though.

I agree with both CooLDoG and Faraday. >_< We should really stop derping around and lynch someone (preferably BBmolla), but the VC isn't a reason to do so. The fact that he's scum is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, did Seacore not post that in the new thread? That's like the only post I read from the old thread, I just assumed he reposted it after the crash.

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA for the weekend. Not moving my vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

While it's awesome that Shadoweh came up scum, I'm really sad that people actually bought BBmolla's bullshit. His claim stinks to high heaven, and it's waaaaaaaay too convenient given Pine's claim. I'm strongly leaning toward him being the real roleblocker or scumbuddies with the real roleblocker.

Vote: BBmolla

Also, I've been musing over Shadoweh's claim since I caught up on the thread today. I think that Shadoweh was trying to draw out a doc counterclaim (thank god that didn't happen), and that that's why greenknight died, because he came out so strongly against the fake claim. I would also speculate that Shadoweh's team is the one whose kill failed Night 1, and that it was Shadoweh trying to kill Tammy. I think there's a decent chance that she claimed Tammy as her target in case someone had tracked/watched her Night 1. In my mind at least it makes me more comfortable with the thought of Tammy being town, since I find her unlikely to be Shadoweh's scumbuddy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastin +1.

BBmolla fail-claim, AV was a terrible block choice from a town perspective and the way he's been playing hasn't been indicative of town PR so he's a safe fake target too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ITT CooLDoG continues to make the same make that others have made in this thread: assuming that being logical and saying things that "help the town" makes someone town. If this were a perfect game where every player had a perfect understanding of mafia and the setup, that *might* be true, but it still probably wouldn't. The fact is, being a bad player doesn't make someone scum, and if you look at the game from Pine's perspective it's pretty easy to see where most of his thought-processes have come from, even if he didn't always think things through correctly.

@ MoS -

I don't think BB is the roleblocker that blocked Pine, if he were I doubt he'd say "Pine wasn't the person I blocked today" instantly outright given that there's a chance he'd be tracked to Pine and/or Pine was watched catching him visiting. I also think he's town and I recommend you go and read my thoughts on him yesterday and state what you disagree with exactly.

This doesn't make any sense, Regfan. BB already claimed yesterday that he had not blocked Pine, and he also claimed that he thought Pine was town. There is NO way that town-BB would block Pine under these circumstances, so if he got tracked last night to Pine he's already fucked. Therefore there is no reason for him to wait and see if he's caught before claiming another target today, because blocking Pine is an indefensible position

anyway

.

@BBMolla- If scum did it, then there's the assumption of discussion about the target. And, if everyone is to be believed, the "dumb scum" group not only selected to roleblock Pine one night but two nights? And since he can't really find anything out, they didn't do it to stop him from gaining info, but because they are all dumb.
Is this what you are saying/implying?

Yes.

Unless there is some special agenda that scum have or something like that.

LoL!

If this doesn't convince people BB's scum, you should all just quit mafia now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MOS, We have all explained to Pine how to best use his role, and he still hasn't, that is truly scum motivated.

...if Pine was scum, why would he not just pretend to listen to us and claim OBVRESULT on someone who has already claimed their alignment?

if you look at the game from Pine's perspective it's pretty easy to see where most of his thought-processes have come from, even if he didn't always think things through correctly.

Elaborate on this.

I have done this so many times it's not even worth it to repeat myself at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...if Pine was scum, why would he not just pretend to listen to us and claim OBVRESULT on someone who has already claimed their alignment?
.

That isn't a response to what CooLDoG said. CooLDoG said that action X is scum motivated because Y. You said that action X is not scum motivated because why wouldn't action X be action B. The issue here is that all that action X is what happened, not B. If action X is devoid of town motivation but has scum motivation, then pointing out another possible scum action in B does not change anything.

I disagree. CooLDoG is essentially saying that because Pine did NOT take action B, he's scum. I'm pointing out that *if* Pine was scum, the easiest play he could have made would be to do exactly what other people were telling him to do. Instead he chose to stick with his own plan, however much others disagree with it. I don't see the scum motivation in Pine's target choice.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Regfan: I'm still working that out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think that BBmolla's claim so far (especially today in particular) have been nothing but attempts to draw out town power roles. He's been baiting someone to contradict his claim so his team can kill them. He almost died yesterday and he's the lead wagon out of the gate today, so it feels like he's not playing for the long haul.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I strongly disagree. A town PR wouldn't try to get someone to confirm him. He'd merely claim his target and leave it be, because he'd KNOW that he roleblocked the person. BBmolla felt more like he was not sure whether or not AV would counter his claim (because he didn't actually block him!).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would he claim that he roleblocked Pine? He stated all of yesterday that he thought that Pine was town so why would he roleblock him for one, and why would he state he did if he didn't?

The real question is, why would BBmolla specifically feel the need to claim that he had NOT blocked Pine instead of just revealing who he *had* blocked? If he was town, the default assumption is that he did not block Pine. It was an unnecessary assertion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, V/LA for the weekend. When I get back I'll try to look into possible scumbuddies for Shadoweh.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BB wagon is still absolutely horrible.

Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cause the case on him is rediculous, having had town roleblocker b4 and having been lynched for it. Watching it happen to someone else is rediculous. I still don't see anything other than having that role that he has done scummy.

So...your argument is that because you got lynched as a town roleblocker once that everyone who claims roleblocker should be sympathized with if people want to lynch them?

...

...

...

>.<

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah what he said!

Pine, I have seen lots of walls on BB, I've seen lots of moderatly useless back and forth.

Give me a three sentance summary of this "case" of yours.

Wow...this makes me really uncomfortable. This post SCREAMS platitudes to me. I'd say that my attacks on BB have been anything *but* walls, and as someone who first called him out and made the case, it sounds like TD is hiding behind "walls are confusing/useless/etc" as an excuse for not agreeing with the case against BB.

Not to mention that Pine's "case summary" was pretty terrible and very unconvincing, yet all of a sudden

that

was what convinced TD to want to think about things further?

I think we've found our lynch for tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mos, I belive you to be wrong, pines three sentances convinced me more than anything any of the rest of you have said.

I need to think more :/. Its still between BB and Briz for me.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If he were actually a Town roleblocker, the other person wouldn't be "stupid as hell," they'd be scum.

1) This doesn't even make sense. BB was clearly trying to claim that a scum roleblocker would be stupid to block Pine. "Stupid as hell" and scum are not mutually exclusive things, and BB in no way tried to imply that. Pine's "case" here is a gross misrepresentation of what BB said...and I'm saying this despite the fact that BB is obviously scum anyway!

He's been lurky and opportunistic, which plays to his scum meta, so far as I know it.

2) I've said this like 5 different times so far, so it's utter bullshit for you to claim that #2 is more convincing than what anyone else has said.

There. That's three succinct sentences.

3) Pine's third sentence wasn't even part of his case!

TD, you have some explaining to do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Were you born without any brains or did something happen after?

Technically he would still have to have a brain. You need a CNS in order to actually live.

Anyway. More BB/pine votes now.

This was a completely useless post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

what do you mean I have some explaining to do? There were three, succinct sentances, he presented the case well, and no, no it wasn't, I believe the first one was seperated from the bototm two with a quote was it not?

Oh yes, you're right. Let's take a look at what it was:

BB was evasive about his roleblock claim.

Oh look, another thing

that has already been said

.

You still have not explained why Pine suddenly convinced you by merely repeating what was already presented.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's a retarded idea.

[Mastermind of Sin]

AV: Stop being bad at mafia and vote BBmolla again.

meh, MOS and Pine are connected way stronger than those two.

LoL...you

really

don't understand this game...

[Mastermind of Sin]

1) Yes
2) Debatably. This question is not relevant to Pine's alignment, however. If he was scum he'd just lie about his targets and make it *seem* like he was doing the best he could to help the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I almost forgot the following players were in this game (as in, I probably couldn't tell you what they've done, most likely because they aren't doing anything of note):

Empking
PeregrineV
moneybags (didn't quite forget him as much, but I haven't seen him doing much lately)
brizingre1 (same as moneybags)
Nachomamma
Feysal (see: moneybags)
Haze

These people need to do more to put themselves out there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cool story bro

[Mastermind of Sin]

Would you say he's the sort of town to sheep whatever other people tell him to do?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, not buying it. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, not buying it. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one.

Oh yes lets go with the formal fallacy which is easily abused, that sounds safe. Lets not do our best to decide if Pine is faking or not, lets just fall on Occam's Razor, and pretend that we are worried about slipping down a 'slippery slope'.

LoL, Junpei. Good luck arguing that I haven't spent any time thinking about whether or not Pine is faking his role.

Actually, Zdenek is dead on for this one. Were I scum, I'd have done the exact same thing the last day or so.

I probably would have backed down and gone "oh hey, you're right" at the first mention that my plan might not be a good idea, though.

I'm not saying that I think he's completely wrong that you might have played it similarly as scum. However, the way you have handled the situation overall does not seem false to me.

Zdenek's argument essentially boils down to "Pine [as scum] has purposefully made himself seem scummy and acted as difficult as possible so that when people try to lynch him, someone will defend him for it." I am not buying for one second that Pine's strategy [as scum] is to try and get himself lynched and then hope that somebody else comes to his defense in spite of his behavior. Zdenek is using my reaction to Pine as justification for Pine-scum's supposed planned strategy

after the fact

. That doesn't make any sense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: Zdenek is also saying that Pines' actions are highly unlikely to come from town, qualifying his belief that Pine is trying to act abstract purposefully (which we are perceiving as scummy).

He's straight up admitted that Pine would not necessarily act differently as town, and as I said he's justifying his distinction between Pine-scum and Pine-town by pointing to the

aftermath

of Pine's actions. He does not actually have any reasoning to qualify his assumption here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BBmolla is today's lynch. Deal with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BBmolla is today's lynch. Deal with it.

Do you have any evidence that ties BBMolla to Shadoweh?

Not specifically, but I haven't really looked for it. I believe his and Pine's claims are tied, which makes him Shadoweh's scumbuddy by default.

Faraday: Sure thing, I pride myself on the ability to be succinct.

Notice Pines' positioning on his town-scum list (near the top) One post later, doesn't understand why LMP finds Pine town. Then a few more posts later outright says that Pine is scummy.

Here's the first scumlist, compare it with the list in the first post I linked.

After unvoting Norman a post prior, backs away from his Norman suspicion completely when responding to Haze

Compare this lynch list with the previous two, the progression makes no sense with his posting.

Third lynch list, and Fourth lynch list.

That should be enough. Also he wasn't pushing any lynches actively and left a lot of "I'll do more later" clauses in his writing.

This is actually pretty good. However, I'm not a huge fan of voting replacements right before deadline when there are other very good candidates with larger wagons. I'll make you a deal, though. Vote BBmolla with me today and I'll go with you on Oversoul tomorrow (at least to the point of being willing to place early pressure votes and see where it goes).

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't like voting replacements either before they have a chance to come in and make an impression. There are some people that are just damn suspicious. I've seen slots that are highly regarded as scum slots be replaced into by better players who've been able to turn things around for their slot.

Is Oversoul someone you think will massively catch up and turn around the slot?

The replacement argument is flawed in that the alignment of the slot doesn't change. Briz has shown nothing but scum motive, and no town thought processes. That's a no as in none. That's all we need, the case is solved; we don't need Oversoul to supply us a second set of data.

I'm not saying that Oversoul replacing in makes that slot more town. But the case against BBmolla is much stronger so there's no point in changing my vote, ESPECIALLY to someone who just got here and can't even really defend himself before deadline. I'm more than willing to explore that slot tomorrow, since your case is good enough to put them near the top of my list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hm, interesting. Even so, there are some inconsistencies in his reads. I'll think some more about it though.

Even more reason to take care of obvscumolla today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd still not be comfortable voting him today though. There's a replacement that has just come in for his slot, and I don't care who else knows the replacement's meta and thinks it won't be any better, I still don't think it's right. Besides, the replacement could be better; I don't want to lynch him without even giving him a chance.

Tammy, enough with the mafia ethics please. Briz gave us a big enough sample, we don't need Oversouls', especially considering that replacements generally look more town on their own by virtue of having more to work with at the beginning. You have nothing to feel bad about if you lynch Oversoul right now.

Except for letting BBmolla live.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The lack of BB lynch is really retarded at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

With only 4 votes on him currently and a lot more needed for a lynch I don't see how he'd possibly think he could be quick-lynched overnight to the point of begging to have a chance to claim. The soft-claim and reaction reeks of scum.

I disagree. This reeks of Oversoul town so far, actually. He's *really* good at digging himself a hole as town (see: Mortal Kombat).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Meh. Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what's sad? Nacho and BBmolla have almost the same # of posts...but I'm pretty sure BBmolla has been in the game much longer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ITT Junpei continues to prove himself to be an idiot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

BTW Note how BBmolla has gone back to lurking now that his wagon stalled and all of his posts have had minimal contribution. He's trying to fly under the radar and hope he survives another day barely. It's so obvscum that I'm absolutely shocked he's not dead yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll switch, I'm just not going to facilitate a quick lynch/lynch without hearing the claim where (up until his last couple posts), I didn't feel BB was leaning so strongly scum. Then again, he could be pulling a Foxace, so yeah.

There aren't really *any* parallels between the way Foxace acted and how BBmolla is treating today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, Shadow, you're contributing WAY more than BBmolla is, and even if you weren't, you're not under pressure so the situation isn't comparable at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Foxace and BBmolla didn't act the same at all. Foxace was very active when he was on the site, he was V/LA for a couple days but when he was around he posted a lot and tried to contribute. BBmolla, on the other hand, is very clearly active on the site (he has been caught repeatedly posting frequently in other games while avoiding this one), and his posts are generally devoid of meaningful content. Foxace didn't try to shirk his lynch at all. Hell, he tried to help it along because he thought (erroneously) that it was the best thing to do since he'd just be a distraction later. BBmolla has done nothing but try to wait out his wagon and jump on anything that looks like it'll build up big enough to save him from being lynched.

Not to mention that BBmolla has OMGUS'd people multiple times in this game specifically for voting him. He's not putting any effort into finding scum, he's just trying to save his own ass. It's as clear as day to anyone who actually read his ISO, which you clearly have not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOS 3054 is hella scummy. You can't go back to something you never stopped.

1) BBmolla actually started posting more frequently BOTH days when it looked like he was finally about to be lynched. Then when the pressure faded he disappeared into the ether once again to take the focus off himself.

2) Even if point #1 was wrong (hint: it's not), you're claiming that BBmolla has ALWAYS been lurking...which would be even more reason to lynch him. So why aren't you voting BBmolla again?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lynching lurkers is rediculous, and briz is super scummy, aaaaand, if briz flips how I excpect him to then I have about 7/10 odds of winning the game fo rmy team immediatly .

Lynching lurkers who are lurking on purpose is not ridiculous at all. Briz isn't super scummy, half the case against him was already debunked. At best there is reasonable suspicion, which has been made up for by Oversoul's town reaction to the wagon against him when he replaced in.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote BB. We can look at Nacho tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good boy. *pats on head*

=P <3