Marketplace Mafia II - Game Over
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Reg/Grey you've played in this before so I'm guessing you have some set up spec ideas. Whoever got investigation immunity needs to claim it or it'll just be assumed scum bought it. The fact night kill went so cheap is also kind of sad (and having the second scummiest player be required to spend all their money on it to at least drive it's price up would be one idea). Whoever has oracle should claim it and all the next night powers too (and while we couldn't plan with the previous powers, it's somewhat possible to plan for future powers now). Extra vote should be claimed as well. Governor I'm more meh on whether or not it's kept secret.
VOTE: Grey I'm curious where on the power list miller is?-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Fake claiming miller in a game known to contain no miller. Does that fact not affect your thoughts on the miller claim at all?
P-edit: This applies to matt/kanye as well. It's a pretty obvious fake claim based on the factalltown/mafia role powers are bought (assuming the last game is any indication).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Already stated my opinion that oracle and investigative immunity people need to claim (which is also me saying I do not have either power). Fund pooling should be done on a case by case basis (as in if we were to have a clear then I could see having a lot of people transfer to them and doc on them).
Reg I can see the matt town read, but can you explain the sala town read?
Matt is the first line in that post terrible or the second?
P-edit: Tammy unless he's read you wrong repeatedly before I'm not sure how that makes much sense for a reply.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Tammy until those people show up it doesn't matter if they supposedly exist (that and I'd think you could defend yourself better then someone else can).
I actually thought the second line was worse (think it was mentioned since it pretty much just extended rvs and was just useless). VOTE: Tammy
Sala I think you're leaning town I'm just curious on how reg has you as very likely town.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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So did you read this, molla?
A true miller claim does affect things (and if you're fake claiming I think you've gotten enough reaction out of it to stop if you're town). Still fine with my current vote though (and I don't agree with lynch all millers nor do I really think molla's first post was that bad for a true miller claim anyway so just judge him for what he does later).
P-edit: I haven't finished reading the mini so I assume you replace in later voided.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mentioned already but lack of it being part of voided's claim and not mentioned much does everyone think oracle power should be claimed today? I'd find it pretty useful since it's mostly just nice info.
And voided l was on day 2 near LLD replacing in when I was reading it. I'll try to finish it this weekend.
Game's also started well since while molla's thing is strange I don't think it's scummy from him anyway (matt while it's a different way of claiming you know he fake claims a lot) and I have several town reads.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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I only see one problem with it and I'd be fine following it. A mafia doctor could just screw with it, but I'm assuming for now doctor is a role town wanted more (even if the bids didn't show it).
@Sean go iso BBmolla karma mafia in coney island. He fake claimed I think three times as town in one day (only the 3rd fake claim was of any really worth). Him fake claiming is pretty common.
And I don't think tammy would respond like this as town (I've only barely seen her play but from my glances it leans more logical then this) or at least I'm not sure why it's a reason to unvote her.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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In post 97, Seanald wrote:I've seen her do this before and she turned up town so pulling the vote for now.
Link to when?-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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94 is fairly weak unless you intend to apply it at all on grey if your point is just the idea is bad (and I assumed the RB claiming was so that if the night killer was RB town would know who interfered).
I also disagree buddying is always a scum tell (well I'm biased since he buddied me, but considering the way he buddied me it felt genuine if a bit exaggerated considering it's a comparison to a fairly recent game).
The rest I'm curious on his response to.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Reg I still want you to answer my question (where did get a really strong town read on sala from that quickly)?
I can see parts of the sean case even if I still don't really agree there (still enjoy tammy lynch though). Matt how is voided scum? (yeah I think the burden's on you first there for an actual reason or two)-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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You'd be more patient early on and probably fake claim a different role to start the game off. Although it depends on whether the day vig is 1 shot or each day. Each day you'd definitely be more patient. 1-shot I still don't think you'd claim it and instead claim other things then use it later into day 1.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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In post 131, BBmolla wrote:In post 127, Mehdi2277 wrote:You'd be more patient early on and probably fake claim a different role to start the game off. Although it depends on whether the day vig is 1 shot or each day. Each day you'd definitely be more patient. 1-shot I still don't think you'd claim it and instead claim other things then use it later into day 1.
Oh so I'd try to lose credibility for when a cop does investigate me after I fake claim something stupid
Seems like a very well thought out plan
You make it sound like you couldn't get away with it fine.
Meh, I have trouble trusting you claim wise (even if I trust you alignment wise) after karma mafia.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Grey I was referring to this:
In post 117, Gentlemen Bastards wrote:Empires constructing our reads at the moment but VM is literally near confirmed-town, he's never getting lynched or vigged or anything of the sort.
The vigged part shows reg/sat weren't sure on BB's claim either yet you focused on matt for it (I'll admit he's shown more belief but both have). So why the selective scum hunting?
P-edit: They'd know by the fact Grey's plan involves the person with the night kill claiming it.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Currently it's really split on two wagons, so on sean my town read of him to be clearer is based on this:
In post 73, Seanald wrote:second time you've convinced me your town within 2 pages
Fairly short statement, but for now it outweighs some of the other things when taken into some context with the reference being to micro 47 (only 4 pages to skim through to understand the reference). Coming from his first post with that game being pretty recent the remark comes off as very genuine.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Bah, this thing had too many walls to read.
In post 170, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Mehdi - I very much dislike the “Well we know there isn’t a Miller how does that affect votes” (which is not confirmed at all, BTW). It reads as someone testing the waters to see how support for a “BB lynch” will be supported.
You realize I was defending BB at the start and pretty much have since on the miller thing. And can you not be so literal on confirmed. If something has a very high chance of being true (based on both the entire way the set up works, and lack of any prs last game this was done, and wording of one part of the rules calling abilities as things to just be bought, along with how day vig still makes little sense in this set up with all the other powers appearing). Especially considering the timing of that (early on before he mentioned the vig kill and really kept with it or had said the flavor aspect)
In post 174, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 173, Salamence20 wrote:MoI, your thoughts on Tammy?
I see nothing out of the ordinary from Tammy. She overposts as Town. She's reactive and melodramatic as Town. She if anything is more reserved as scum.
What is your read on the PartyBois?
Any actual link support to that?
I like all the set up spec from Pere.
In post 191, SlumberPartyBois wrote:Why specifically would you like to know my read on greygnarl?
I meant greyice. Simply because I'm split on him and I have a town read on you so I wanted your thoughts on him. You covered him afterwards though.
In post 205, SlumberPartyBois wrote:pedit: @BBMOLLA: You should just discuss the daykill with Gentlemen Bastards and I. Not because he's my only townread, but because he's my only townread I consider coherent enough to actually direct it in a positive manner. I'd recommend GreyICE (I mean, MoI is my top top choice because he is the most annoying to ever get lynched and I have him as a medium scumread so it would spare me the trouble)
When did he become your strongest town read?
Still don't think sean is scum although guille's reaction to sean being suspected is interesting (k he's read enough to have some reads, but not enough to understand why one of the main people that is being voted is suspected) and links the two a bit (primarily if sean flipped scum I'd want guille lynched right after). His silence is also interesting.
Whether gentlemen is right or wrong on tammy think he's probably town. My tammy read depends partly on something I'll decide on later, but at the moment I still like the vote. I'm fine with greyscum though too (don't agree with moiscum though at all).
@Molla, Voided tends to post long as town so saying it's calculated be more specific on (that and I see more of a usual town voided slight joking/relaxed tone for him). Mostly agree with you on greygnarl (221 is the post I'm referring to although I think whether he's right or not on scum having more money it was a town comment either way).
I like GB's point on defender in 222. Meh on stefan (dislike his reasons to focus on MoI which really just involve a lot of reaching on one minor point, while liking his first post).
I also like tazaro and phillammon (and philla even more so for 290). I think the scum slip applies to pitty more so then MoI although I'm currently leaning she actually inferred that instead of having it as scum knowledge. I really don't think MoI scum slipped. I opted out of the qt and considering most pms are vanilla I could easily someone just skim them and I'd think MoI would be more careful on things like that as scum especially when he was using it as a scum slip himself on someone.
Dislike defender's 281 quite a bit.
And with how easy claims are to confirm (as in they bought it) not giving time to claim powers bought and money used is a horrible idea. That should be a given always.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Town. The only thing I honestly don't understand well is his avoidance of the thread (well I do have a guess why someone would but it's the most troubling thing), but post wise I still think of him as town (while it may see like he's just jumping with minimal thought, his flow of logic is clear if not necessarily agreeable).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Looking over things I have too many town reads (that and my read on tammy has solidified enough to town and I don't want to just wait to hear MoI's response to my question on her). I'd currently feel most comfortable with actually starting and having a defender lynch (guille with second since while not with sean I still dislike the only post he's made). I don't really see Grey as scum unless sean is (why else try to block a super easy mislynch assuming sean is town) and just disagree with the reasons against MoI.
UNVOTE: TammyVOTE: Defender
P-edit: I actually have all three of you as town now (which is confusing me a bit now, but I'll read over some people later).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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As for why before, well I like using early game reads as a good backbone and from the first several posts tammy had she felt scummy while I felt the opposite from matt. Both have solidified to town right now with a decent amount dealing with Tammy's stubbornness (I don't see matt/kanye scum at all though).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Molla you've already called defender scum. You have a town read on me. That's all the reason you need to shoot him (or everyone could follow me to him).
P-edit: Fine I'll call greyice, ice (and you just gnarl).
P-edit2: If it wasn't for the fact I had you as scum for just strange early voting before I'd probably fight it. MoI I don't understand the read on at all though (matt's town reads work well with me though for the most part and he can explain reads pretty easily).
And I personally believe the daykill thing. I've only seen molla once keep on pushing a claim like this and that was when he fake claimed lovers with matt and both were town so I think when does push a claim he's actually doing it to help (and I'm not sure how fake claiming helps a lot so I'll go with it being true). Plus it can be proven (which is honestly the main thing to it).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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You're defining policy too strictly then. If a player is scummy as both alignments and does something scummy are they a policy lynch or a lynch? Sean has been scummy has both alignments and from my experience with him nearly got mislynched day 1 as town (yeah it was vengeful, but other examples can be found).
Either way fighting over vocab use is just dumb.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Matt, it's vocab usage. It's a minor thing to get worked up about and is fairly pointless.
And yes gentle not every townie is ideal town. I know that and understand it. I still think overall he's town (his flow between posts is clear even though it's strange).
Matt, I think both of you two are town, so at the least me and gnarl will help ice. As for starting the oracle thing anyone who hasn't just bold sayingI'm not the oracleuntil everyone says it or we have a claim (if we have no claim I'll assume scum bought it since info like that has no good reason to be hidden).
Reg you yourself were fine having the oracle stuff claimed last game. Why not push to get it claimed when it helps organize things.-
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Town (T to S): Gentle, Ice, Matt, Tammy, (Gap), Voided, Sala, Molla, Gnarl, Sean, (Gap) Peregine, MoI, Tazaro,
Null (T to S): Philla, Pitty, Stefan, Elmo, Eid
Scum (T to S): Guille, Defender
That covers it about right now at the moment. S being most townie while W being most scummy.
And sala you could ask the same for what sean scum is like vs sean town. Him being suspected isn't all that new so I'd at least recommend checking his meta over matt (don't think he's scum now at all, just disagree with him).
Reg he didn't say he voted her for her meta, but for using self-meta. Just because he called her town and scum for meta related things doesn't mean they contradict (self meta being disliked and then swap to thinking about her and unvoting). In fact him unvoting when she was still being suspected even if it was going down a bit is a town tell not a scum tell.
I concede the point of his activity being scummy, but overall I think he's town still.
P-edit: Tammy what's your read on defender? That's the only one I need right now.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Did he ever say the meta he unvoted her was because of the selfmeta (or was that just assumed)? I assumed it was just stubbornness (the most noticeable thing about her play) but I don't know her meta to know what part of it he was referring to.
So yeah pretty much everything in sean's play except thread avoidance can be explained with a town motivation. Other point of him backing off Tammy when she was still suspected being a town tell (assuming tammy is town which I think she is) also applies.-
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Sala I realize matt likes bussing, but to do so that hard is really doubtful (along with the rest of his play). If you're half-clearing people based on MoI's reads while it's worth looking at later with some flips in it right now I doubt it'll help much (I'd expect at least one scum on it even though I doubt he'd tunnel a partner early myself). Stefan does go up quite a bit based on his flip though (and pitty goes down).
Grey, what 3rd party claims and pretty much gives the town a double lynch? I don't care if he's scum for he dies after we remove all other scum if needed (since we can just control his kill).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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Going through MoI's iso neither sean or BB is scum with him (the way he fosed both that he'd have been pretty much needed to vote them if pressured). I don't think MoI's scum team has investigative immunity (probably belongs to the other team since no one has claimed it). Voided is likely not scum with him based on the way he reacts to GB's strong town read there.
174 is a weak scum tell for Tammy (MoI could have ignored the meta aspect and attacked her for it without much trouble).
I don't think any scum knew that town had a qt based on his reaction to it (which already said hurts Pitty some). Don't think sala is with MoI based on 186 and 223. Slight scum tell there for Peregine as well based on MoI not really using the question to an attack, but just backed down kind of (rest of his play for now keeps him as town).
Already mentioned stefan not with him and don't think GB is either.
Overall while it's helped some town reads only person I think it hurts a good amount right now to put as a scum read is Pitty.
Pitty's walls themselves are pretty strange when she complained to me about walls quite a bit in a recently finished game. She knows as scum she uses them more, but I think it's scummy anyway. Right now I want defender or pitty lynched most (defender much more, but I'd accept a pitty lynch just fine).
Town claiming NK I like since it let's us vote on it (I think triple lynches is more important then decreasing scum's ability to affect the lynch).-
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In post 444, D3f3nd3r wrote:In post 417, BBmolla wrote:
In post 394, D3f3nd3r wrote:BBMolla's claim: Way too early. From past experience, early miller claims came when a player was L-1 from an RVS wagon, even though the player in that game was scum. It's either scum playing it safe or a genuine town claim, probably the former. IMO, a town miller should claim towards the end of the day, not in the first post of it.
What games have you been playing, in nearly every game I've played with a miller they've claimed immediately day one.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=22472: Shotty claimed miller when pressed during RVS. He was scum.
It's also site meta to claim in the first post as true miller and most follow it. The majority of town millers claim early. Saying him claiming early as a fos reason is really dumb.
I don't care if he's scum anyway (pretty sure he's town, but fosing him now is stupid anyway). He let's us have double lynches which is very useful.
Sat I just heavily doubt he's scum. Only fos reason I think is decent on him right now is thread avoidance. I can understand the others, but completely disagree with them.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
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I don't even care if he's scum right now. If he's scum he can be lynched later (after removing other scum). The fact you can't see how his day vig doesn't make him near clear when he claimed it and was willing to have it negotiated is bad. What kind of scum pretty much becomes a person who can do a second lynch for the town?-
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In post 170, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Investigation Immunity should absolutely be claimed ASAP.
Minor, but I think it's enough of a reason.-
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I'll admit matt loves bussing (no clue on kanye's stance towards bussing), but the main thing is the fact he started the wagon on seanald himself (he didn't jump on a buddy getting suspected he started it). Yes I realize hard bussers exist, but I just think it's more likely it's not a bus (while I disagree with the case on sean I understand it easily so I'm fine with matt's push).
MoI wasn't even doing a good bus on sean. If he was he'd have pushed it hard in it's final part. He barely mentions sean and just sheeps on the wagon. That's more like scum trying to quietly get a lynch vs scum bussing and wanting to make it clear they're one of the main people getting a scum lynched. Sala when you're scum bussing do you just do it quietly and try to not be noticed if the wagon still has time or do you do it in a way it's you're clear you're on the wagon?-
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BB you get the efficiency bonus. We lose 5 per day. I'm fine losing 10 (2 days) if it means lynching someone I think is scum.
Eid read the whole game before calling BB scum (although he's the only one who's special like that so giving reads on everyone else as you go works). BB will never be lynched in the first three days. Ever. We already discussed that. He's proven part of his claim already(the vig part).
P-edit: Tonally I had philla as weak town and I've never played with him to know if he generally lurks as town or not. I can understand that and he goes to null, but I just prefer to start by looking at people who'll respond before someone who lurks a lot (yes I realize without pressure they can continue to lurk, but day 1 in a game not micro should have enough discussion elsewhere to let them by for a day and focus more on later). I'll watch what he posts later, but for the moment he's just null.
P-edit2: Then vote defender.-
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Case on defender:
1. He acted like he didn't know that town received a qt offer.
2. He's showed up but done little besides focus on small bits that have about 0 follow up or defending himself. He's given a weak town read on defender, but instead of defend him when he's getting pushed this much he lets the wagon move on.
3. Hasn't had single scum read he's pushed on.
4. Exchange with MoI that consists of him just ignoring MoI.
5. Dumb focus on BB
Done.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
I probably missed a couple claims when I skimmed for them so if I did tell me and I'll correct it. Anyone who hasn't claimed not oracle/nightkill (or hasn't claimed it) still needs to. The quick skim did make me want to put Philla back to weak town (he was one of the people who voted MoI not long after his slip).
Player Roles they have Roles they don't have BBmolla Miller, Vigilante, No Money All of the Auction Powers GB Governor Oracle, NK, and Investigation Immunity Sala Double Vote NK SDB Roleblocker Oracle and NK Mehdi NK, Investigation Immunity, Oracle Voided Investigation Immunity or NK Guille NK Greyice Oracle PeregineV NK and Investigation Immune Greygnarl Oracle and NK Elmo Eid NK Tazaro NK Stefan Oracle and NK Pitty Philla Tammy Oracle and NK
Defender isn't on this but he's already claimed to not have bought anything.-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
People who might have the NK (assuming it belongs to town since if it's with scum there's a good chance they'll just lie there):
Greyice
Elmo
Pitty
Philla
People who could have the oracle if it belongs to town:
Sala
Elmo
Pitty
Philla
Guille
Peregie
Eid
Tazaro
P-edit: I'll update the table again after a couple more claims (vs updating after every single claim).-
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma
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Mehdi2277 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: June 26, 2012
- Location: Oklahoma