Street Racers: New York (Game over!)

[Jal]

Sup.

I came for some Kazooie action.

[Jal]

@AP/Kazooie:

I'm pretty sure you're town, so let's talk.

Here's my problem with the Thez = scum scenario:

Thez's earlier posts were horrible, but I'm reading his later attacks, especially his vote on you as being pretty townie. I know as town when there's someone really pushing my wagon who

everyone else thinks is town

, I really push back against that idea and particularly that person. The mentally basically is, "I am town, so why would a fellow townie push so hard for my lynch?"

Also, there's a real lack of support or resistance against his wagon. Maybe if Thez has a scum team of derps, but really, there's barely anyone putting any real effort in resisting his wagon, outright defending him, or creating a good counter wagon (although there's this whole Arc thing starting, but I'll get to that). It might be because his scum team is throwing him under the bus, but I really doubt a bunch of them would do that so soon in the thread when there's still a lot of time to switch wagons around.

[Jal]

In other news ArcAngles last post is terrible. I know of no role that upon the flip of one player it causes another player to be confirmed innocent. To be it seams far too much like Scum trying to distance their buddy through the medium of WIFOM.

Thus;
VOTE: ArcAngel9

Who exactly do you think ArcAngel is trying to distance themselves from? In her last post, the only one she was talking to was Thez - the person whom you just said you think is town.

[Jal]

AP, I present to you the above case ^^^ Arc is acting similarly to Thez here against their wagon. I'm thinking they're both probably town.

[Jal]

Jacob, I looked through Arc's latest posts and I really don't know what you're talking about in reference to Arc distancing. Earlier you called out a hypothetical scum team:

If I had to call a scum tram now I'd say Sixx, Thez, Robert and Killer with just looking at the vote count and a memory of a couple of posts.

Arc isn't a part of it.

At first I thought you mght be referring to Arc's reply to Killer (someone you named as scum) in post 344, but you made a recent post just on this page afterwards with no mention of it, so it's not that and you just called Thez town-like. It doesn't make sense. It looks like you wanted to put a vote on ArcAngel for whatever reason and avoid the Thez wagon, and made up an excuse to do so.

I think you're a little scummy scum who thinks Thez will get lynched and doesn't want their name on the wagon.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JacobSavage

[Jal]

His attack and subsequent vote on BirdandBeast is the townie mentality I'm talking about:

Spoiler:

Sorry, "Bird" (As I am referring to both who are playing the role), but why are you obvtown again? Because you're a hydra?

Honestly thez I don't need anybody to ask why I have votes on me, it is what it is and thats my basic reaction to any D1 situation. What bugs me right now is that you are curious to his reasons to me. Don't latch onto me, we might play together somewhere else but I'll still lynch you well before you get the chance to buddy-buddy and kill me. Same goes for how B&B is latching onto Mastin with the obvtown. Am I going to make a deal about it at all? no. Why? because its D1 and I'm considered new to them so c'est la vie.

It has nothing to do with me sheeping you. It has to do with him not giving a reason for a vote and me trying to find out that reason. It has to do with motive.

[quote="In post 117, Baby Spice
But Thez's #61 is kinda scummy all on it's own for me, just for answering a question directed at someone else.

So I ask again, why am I scum?

Caving your vote to follow the guy putting the most pressure on you is a good reason.

So you’re a hypocrite too?

Note: Sorry about the screwed up quote, when I went to go crop it I deleted a few pieces that I shouldn't have and couldn't fix it. The bolded is Spice's.

and

VOTE: B&B

Your noncooperation bugs me greatly. You've yet to actually answer one of my questions other than the initial scum read. You claim yourself obvtown but don't give a reason. You then go ahead and say that AT LEAST Sixx and I (though I believe one or two more) are scum, but provide no explanation, then go ahead and go on a town-read binge. I said I'd vote for my top read, the post:

Sorry, "Bird" (As I am referring to both who are playing the role), but why are you obvtown again? Because you're a hydra?

We are. Simple as that.

Has just eclipsed Rodger.

You look to me like all you are doing is active lurking. You barely contribute, and what you have contributed is far from notable IME.

He's frustrated by the push on him, especially by someone who calls themselves obvtown without much objection from others. As I said, I know as town when there's someone really pushing my wagon who everyone else thinks is town, I really push back against that idea and particularly that person. The mentally basically is, "I am town, so why would a fellow townie push so hard for my lynch?"

[Jal]

@Mod: I'm voting for JacobSavage

[Jal]

I wouldn't even really call his vote omgus. OMGUS would be more like voting for Mini who actually made a case on him. Like, he was totally upset that you were calling yourself obvtown as one of his main reasons for voting you.

Let's just say, Jal-town has had her share starting arguments and voting for people called obv town and even confirmed town at times who kept pushing her as scum. See: Dolorous and I in ADWD. I just kept thinking that somehow everyone else was

wrong

.

[Jal]

@Jacob

, what about Thez's reaction to pressure do you find stinks of town?

With such a big game, can I take it easy Day One? Is that okay, thezmon?

No.

Do you think Thez is truly scum or are you mainly on his bandwagon to get information from a lynch?

[Jal]

The information is your alignment and its relationship with how people responded to you, or acted when the thing in play was your wagon, etc.

You're not really answering the question. Are you on Thez's bandwagon because you think he's scum or are you on it mainly for information purposes? Basically, I want to know if you think he is scummzorz. I seriously can't tell if you do or not by your answers.

My Initial vote on you just an RVS, I was open to change my vote if there were any good reasons instead your behaviour gotten worse and now you're acting beyond worse.

A vote for Thez (or anyone) on page 8 is

not

RVS in any shape or form.

[Jal]

How is he being different from his town meta right now?

[Jal]

Specifically, links to stuff. I'm feeling extra lazy today.

[Jal]

I just read Killer is replacing along with Johnny. What the hell?

[Jal]

Jacob, I see you on, boy.

[Jal]

If most people are like me, they probably got their role pm and went: "wait, this game _actually is_ about cars and such?" and maybe interest waned.

P-edit: NJ, I just want to know if you actually thought he's scum. The problem is not that you're voting for an information lynch, so much as why you're not voting for someone you think is scum. We get information for any lynch either way. Why not vote a scum read?

[Jal]

Wait I thought it was about the drivers. ...

Actually, I just read the OP flavor. It's about a street gang in Tokyo. Regardless, drivers drive cars. Or are you currently a driver without a car?

Answer my question, while you're stoppin' by.

[Jal]

Unvote: Baby Spice
Vote: SoraAdvent

my first time playing.

let's say there is a bigger chance thezmon221 is scum than the others, which I assume makes it correct to put your vote on him, however but in most cases he's not scum, so if he's not a scum we can be sure that some of the scum has put their vote on him, thats why the last players putting there votes on him, except for the ones which has been replaced are on my radar and I feel like thats a slightly higher probability that for example SoreAdvent is scum than thezmon.

Correct?

What is this

[Jal]

My initial read is scummy because that sure isn't townie.

Jeck, can you reword that? Also - is this your first game ever or just on this site?

[Jal]

I saw it announced in Replacements that Sora is being replaced, actually.

If you think Thez is more likely to be scum, which I argue, then you should be voting him for it, as (in your mind) it would be less likely you'd be lynching a townie. I can understand the mentality that scum may be playing their votes last minute on a scum teammate, but if that is the case, why wouldn't you just vote the scum teammate being ran up?

[Jal]

Wait, I'm not reading that right. You believe Thez is most likely to be scum but due to the fact that the first lynch is most likely to be town you think he's townie?

[Jal]

If you believe Thez is scum, then it's better to vote for him than some people getting on the bandwagon late who might be busing him. This was under the assumption thought thought Thez is scum.

The problem with your theory is, it can be said about any one person. We run up any slot and the same argument can be applied. Where do we draw the line at that point?

[Jal]

I think he's town. Reasoning here: post 364. Why do'ya think he's scum?

Also, how far are you through the thread?

[Jal]

Busy. I'll get to this a bit later.

[Jal]

Reading through.

@Nojoseph

: Is English your primary language?

@AJ

Can you post that meta you have on him?

[Jal]

I just give up on catching up properly and I feel like crap.

Brief thoughts:

Jacob is still scummy for doing shit all after being questioned earlier
Slysly is scummy for considering multiball when nothing has hinted at that. Not town thinking. When I see two people being scummy and there's no way they can be together, I just assume if one flips scum in the future the other probably isn't.
Jeck is scummish for throwing his vote around a bit. Having trouble understanding his flow of logic here.
Albus is scummy for calling Thez town earlier, then voting him for a post he made later. A post which he had already made when he first called him town. Said Thez was looking town, didn't unvote. Called out Sixx as being glaringly obviously scum but I don't really recall him really mentioning this before. If it were so obvious, why not vote earlier?
Ztife/camo, is leaning scummy, mostly for Camo's wagon vote and ztife's awful information analysis dealio.

I feel like nojoseph is just trolling. I can't interpret his earlier comment about black holes to be anything but trolling. I don't know where to go with him. Kinda wanna say town.

Don't have a read of anything on Sixx. My eyes kinda gloss over their posts. Probably going to sheep Nacho, though. Nacho what's the case on Sixx?

Town read on Nacho, Bumi, Mini, the hydra still, Thez, Arc, Darthe (I like his 'tude)

Everyone else is blah

Nacho, I've been reading nojoseph as an English speaker most of the time until I read something weird he wrote which made me ask that question, so it doesn't change my read on him.

[Jal]

Nope, probably open/mini theme. I do read along with a few, though.

[Jal]

I see a good amount of games (in this forum) that aren't multiball. There's no point to start off the game categorizing people into different scum groups assuming multiball without flips. I get categorizing them and making decisions on how people just aren't connected, especially if one flips scum, but starting off with the assumption of multiball I just don't see the "common sense" in that.

Also, all I see in the group you posted that they seem to be a bit buddy buddy with each other. I usually find that is one sided, and not something scum just all do with and to each other.

[Jal]

1. See my last post. Scum make poor choices sometimes.
2. If you are mafia, I doubt seriously that the mod told you about another group of mafia. That makes it irrelevant.

When you supposedly get onto a scum team of three people in a 25 man game, yeah, that would essentially be the mod telling you you're playing multiball.

Your scum buddy scenario seems to be that all the scum decided to buddy each other and made poor choices regardless of experiences. Not buying it. As Baby Spice pointed out, even if you think Bumi is scum, it's more likely he is just buddying Arc for being a newbie who would probably be ran up.

For the record, I just came from a completed game with AA and she was scum that did shit all. Given, it was crappy mylo, but it makes me more sure she is town in this game.

[Jal]

I never said my lists were comprehensive and that the team was made up of just 3. I just listed the ones I spotted defending each other strongly. Then I listed NJ separately because he didn't fit in the defender group.

Uh, my point isn't that you did? My point regards you telling Bumi the mod wouldn't tell scum there is another team. One can easily deduce whether there is another scum team or not if they get into a large game with few scum team members.

Whatever on the other part. Personal opinion and I really really doubt scum would just all buddy buddy and defend each other out right like that.

[Jal]

ou are missing the point. I never said that was the entire team. I didn't specify a team size.

I'm not referring to this at all. I am referring to how the scum would know it's multiball. Whatever. We're not understanding each other on this and that particular point isn't even relevant.

I don't have the time or the pull to swing either wagon. I think NJ is more likely to be trolling town than Sixx.

VOTE: Sixx

[Jal]

After all, dead troll town is better than dead town.

Regardless of alignment, they're both equally useless. Rather vote for someone I think is most likely to be scum than one troll townie. Hell, at least NJ is actually commenting on crap.

[Jal]

Ah yes, the person with the most posts in the thread is "active lurking."

Oh please, go on.

[Jal]

Also, what exactly

is

your read on NJ?

[Jal]

That is not what active lurking means. He also has increased his post frequency in the last few days. I can understand how people can find NJ as coming off scummy in certain aspects, but actively lurking is not something he's doing. Jacob doing crap all earlier after retracting his AA vote and hanging around the forums is an example of active lurking.

I thought you were just sheeping Nacho with your Sixx vote. What makes Sixx scummier to you?

[Jal]

What made you think I was sheeping?

Given the fact that you didn't even call Sixx scum when you voted for them. You really didn't call them

anything

. But seriously, why do you think Sixx is scummier than NJ?

[Jal]

Umm, have you been reading the same game as me?

Must be, because I see NJ posting a lot. Although a lot of it is crap, he does actually comment on things and give reads here and there. Do you think:

Reported.

Is somehow superior?

[Jal]

I'd be up for a quick shift onto Ztife if we can get the numbers.

P-edit: I guess the ABC person, eh? I'll change my quote then,

Also Happy Birthday Njoseph.

Either way, Sixx is commenting on crap all and this just proves he has been reading the thread and decided not give meaningful commentary.

You can't argue that NJ is somehow worse in this regard.

[Jal]

It is the game that shall not be named. Most of the reason I do have Bumi on my town list is because he has had the same general attitude there as he does here and I was pretty sure he was town there (he was). Bumi and Jal town meta: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23989.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ztife

If it can be done, I'd prefer this.

P-edit: If you're town, why the hell we should want to lynch you? If this is seriously over the last game we played, then stop. There are shit games and good games. I just got out of a perfect scum and a perfect town game to get into that crappy game. Seriously, don't let it beat you down.

[Jal]

Go go Ztife wagon gooo!

Seriously, how did we win that. You me and qwints bussed the everloving shit out of each other and at least 2 of us were under suspicion at any given time. Yet somehow no one ever got us lynched >.>

We had a vig friend on the inside.

Ooh boy. I feel like by calling NJ trolling, I just escalated the situation.

[Jal]

Pere, was NJ ran up in your games with him?

[Jal]

10 days left til day ends unless a lynch.

[Jal]

@Mod, I believe my vote count is wrong and it should be at Darth as in post 746

I want people to pay attention to this. It means he has been reading the thread but hasn't chosen to comment on anything worthwhile. Also note, he has been posting elsewhere on the site whereas in this thread he hasn't contributed anything beyond this and holiday wishes since three days ago.

Post 517. His sentence about "Now that Thez is prob-town Im going to look on his wagon for scummies" is reallllly bad. Apparently Jeck thought Thez was scum for a while so IN HIS MIND it should make some sense for townies to want to be on the Thez wagon. After all, HE is town and HE thought Thez was scum for a spell. So HE should have reason to believe that other townies would vote Thez as well since there was apparently a compelling enough case for HIM to vote Thez. Yet now that he is reading town on Thez he is 180'ing and looking at Thez's wagon specifically for scum? Its an absolutely horrid way to scumhunt because

I totally didn't catch this when he did it. His turn around

really

shouldn't make sense from a town point of view. If you're town on a wagon you originally thought was scum, wouldn't it then logically follow to you that other town probably did the same thing as you? There is no reason for him to suddenly turn around and scrutinize the wagon like that specifically for that reasoning

versus

going back and seeing scummy things people have done outside and inside the wagon.

This part is specifically for Edo: There is bound to be scum on and off any wagon. So what? Your point doesn't counter crap all of what B&B said regarding his motivations.

No I thought thez was being town, but I thought he's more likely scum than the average player, however I thought and still thinks that wagon had more scum than average.

You voted for Thez based on the idea that you thought he was town but more likely to be scum? When I asked you why you thought he was scum you gave me reasoning. We also had a big back and forth about voting your scum read. You clearly thought he was scum. You also later provided a scum list. As well, all of this seems to be based on the idea you thought everyone was town but you essentially picked the less townie to go for, which isn't making sense to me based on all the stuff I just mentioned.

[Jal]

Eh. I mainly don't like the way how he basically called Lurker out for his horrible post and then proceeded to defend him.

[Jal]

Thank you SC

@Jal: I just felt the slight bit of interaction was... strange. It just seemed to me like a scum who's worried about his buddy's appearance, but that perhaps the mafia is restricted to Night Talk and he needed to get it out somehow and then he took flak because we noticed it.

No no no I don't disagree with you. It was definitely odd. I can see how they could be partners. I was just adding my bit.

[Jal]

Oh crap, sorry. I am in another game with a person actually called "Lurker."

Let me rephrase:

"I mainly don't like the way how he basically called Jeck out for his horrible post and then proceeded to defend him."

[Jal]

@Sixx: What is your read on Albus and Jacob?

[Jal]

but the chance is still bigger that he's not scum... So I was guessing that its very probable that people on his wagons are scum more often than thez.

Then I changed my read on thez , you can go back and check my post why. In my eyes it then becomes clearer that its more likely scum would be on that wagon than if thez was a scum.

So lower probability of scum, more likely of attracting scum to the wagon.

You just said you had Thez as being town but he is more likely scum than the rest. No, that does not make sense, and it would assume you have all town reads which I pointed out with your scum lists means you DO actually have people as scum reads.

@Jal lol didn't read the last part of your post.. man you need to get back to school. In your eyes its either scum or town, its a probability and its more likely that someone is town than scum. Thats why I made a list of people towniest - scummiest.
stupid f*ck.. talking about grasping at straws.

Trying to come at me after 2-3 others with this? leaning scum now.

No, scum hunting isn't essentially about probability. How does probability come into it in regard to what you're talking about?

Also, I am curious: Would you now say I am acting town but with a higher probability of being scum?

[Jal]

The ztfipoilooo wagon is obviously a no-go and he isn't even responding to much of anything. Bleh.

VOTE: Sixx

I think this is L-3.

Endoperson, I like that response much better.

I really don't know how to interpret his sudden outlash in his recent two last posts. That stuff came out of nowhere.

[Jal]

Bing [Bot],

JacobSavage

, Siveure DtTrikyp, Voidedmafia

HELLO FRIEND.

[Jal]

Okay okay, Edosurist. I feel guilty.

[Jal]

Guilty for intentionally spelling your name wrong.

And hearing from Dumbledore and JS would make my dreams come true, although I somehow doubt we'll get any proper response from Jacob-two-two today.

[Jal]

Also from PM who I know has been around the site. I think it was B&B who said that PM's behavior isn't fitting in either their town or scum meta which I agree with. I just don't have a good read on him whatsoever from his lack of posting.

[Jal]

There's no response worthy of discussion. Thus.

Also, that would make Sixx at L-2 if I didn't get it wrong.

A wagon was starting on you - that is something to respond to if not anything else concerning the continuing debate about NJ and Sixx, along with what was going on with Jeck. So yeah, there was something worthy of you to respond to.

[Jal]

Also, claims happen usually at L-1, not L-3.

Sixx, if your wagon does build up some more and you end up just not claiming, then your lynch is just inevitable.

[Jal]

JK is kinda a weird role to claim if a scum role blocker though. Why not just claim roleblocker then if that's their actual role? Yeah, I buy it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ztife

[Jal]

He's asking if you hinted at your role at any time during game play.

[Jal]

ITT: SlySly criticizes every wagon ever. Although hilariously enough, doesn't mind hammering this one.

Sly, I didn't even realize your vote was on NJ. I barely remember saying shit all about him except to say he was obv scum for reasons unmentioned, and what was after a quick ctrl-f through your iso. For the bandwagon that was okay, I sure didn't hear you say much about to push it.

It's scummy of you to not want to include your reasoning near your vote. If you want to look scummy, then continue on not "fucking reprint"ing your reasons for your vote on a particular slot.

Please, do tell me more. First, about how NJ is obvscum (which you never said in your vote) and how you're okay with hammering Ztife with no reasoning whatsoever.

[Jal]

For the record, this is SlySly's original NJ vote:

Scum not on team A:
NJ

-----------

UNVOTE: whoever KillerApple was voting for

VOTE: NJ

[Jal]

I don't get how claiming your role would affect town negatively during the night if you just get lynched anyway.

[Jal]

If you thought what Nacho pointed out was a lynchable offense and Ztife became obv scum at post 916, then why the hell did you vote NJ? It's not like the wagon was bigger at the time.

Also, if you really felt that way, I sure didn't see you mention it in any of the three comments you made after he became obv scum. This also doesn't address anything else I pointed out pertaining to how you're calling people out people as being scummy for things you've done yourself - which is actually scummy.

There is this huge disconnect between what you're saying and how you're playing.

[Jal]

I think you're scum and I don't like how you're holding out for the hammer on this wagon either.

Ztife needs to say their role and Sixx actually should claim their car and driver in case that is counter-claimable as well.

[Jal]

Also, want NJ reasoning

[Jal]

NJ, I just nailed scum and you vote me for it? You're a special one!

@SS: He didn't necessarily imply that he has a PR, but he probably does given the context. Personally, I would've just refrained from giving my role until L-1 came around, and then not try and hide it from people.

He was at virtual L-1. L-2 with my promise to hammer.

I wasn't going to leave him hanging for scum to come and knock him off without chance for a claim. I really don't like the softclaim either, but the implications of it aren't that hard to read.

Slysly never put down the suspicion that Sixx was scum. He actively voted for the NJ wagon and gave no reads on Sixx. He didn't catch scum anything. He is taking credit for something he never did.

He is also now backtracking on Ztife scum. He thought Ztife was "obv scum" starting at post 916. Please look at his wagon ISO crap. Given how he thought Ztife was obv scum, how in the world was he holding off the hammer from scum knocking Ztife off without a claim? Also, how would that be bad if he thought Ztife was scum?

VOTE: SlySly

[Jal]

Sixx and Ztife aren't together. No reason for Sixx to otherwise hop on that wagon to instead of NJs.
Sixx and BabySpice aren't together. Don't think a partner would call out a scum buddy for a possible fake claim given an old game like that. Also, Baby kept pressing the issue of claiming properly.
Sixx and Albus aren't together. Albus lead with a strong Sixx vote if memory serves.

Sixx kinda avoided Thez's wagon, which can go either way. Scum not adding votes onto partner or scum trying t avoid being on a bandwagon. Sixx didn't try to do anything much about Thez's wagon though, so it's more likely scum trying to avoid a wagon there. Still think Thez is town regardless.

[Jal]

I don't have much time, but I'll look into AJ in a bit, B&B. I read one of your quotes to him that I disliked somewhere, but I'll get back to it later. I'll look at Bumi too.

NJ, why were you talking about other scum team stuff before?

[Jal]

The fuck if I didn't. I spotted a glaring conflict in alignment from Sixx's claim. I called him on it. It didn't take long for me to be proven correct.

Yeah, this:

So Sixx, are dangerous drivers scum in your mind?

Is not spotting a glaring conflict of any kind. Also take into consideration that he got mod killed specifically because the role he posted was too close to what the mod gave him. So whatever he posted was mostly actually given to him.

You did not nail scum.
You never called Sixx scum in that post where you questioned Sixx or any post prior. Actually, what you did was make a big ass wall post calling the wagon and everyone on it shit.

I'm not backtracking on shit. What Ztife did was scummy, but he has claimed a town PR now. It's still possible that Ztife is scum, but due to his claim, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for the time being. Jal, is this your first game? Sometimes townies do scummy things.

If Ztife isn't scum and I put him at L-1 and scum came in and knocked him off without him having a chance to claim, how would that be good?

This is not what happened.

You did your big ass wall post calling the Ztife wagon shit, that he was obv scum, and that you would hammer prior to Ztife soft claiming.

Actually - I look back and see now that you already did your preclaim that you didn't want to bring him closer to L-1 in case scum would hammer him. There is a big disconnect in thinking here. "Obv-scum" dictates that you think he is scum for sure and it's pretty obvious. If you

actually

think this, then why would you be worried about adding an extra vote to bring him closer to a hammer?

You basically were calling Ztife scum but treating him like town.

A) If you think he's scum, scum won't sudden hammer him before a claim
B) Even if you go by your multiball thinking (at the time), then that would still be scum hammering scum. Problem?

and

C) I really awesomely doubt scum would quick hammer like that to draw attention to themselves day one

Implying a hammer actually doesn't do anything either. If you are so worried about scum quick hammering, then in

your

mind there would probably be little chance for you to hammer anyway. One more vote and scum might just hammer anyway, right?

You basically set yourself up pretty by calling all of the Ztife people on the wagon shit, calling Ztife obv scum to lend support to the wagon, and added you would only hammer as to not actually join the wagon.

Any of your thinking this game does not make sense whatsoever from a townie point of view.

[Jal]

I read what SC wrote just now. I was thinking SC just saw that the role pm was too close, but the mod reaction says otherwise. Sly may have been an idiot accidentally getting their partner mod killed, but it makes me think Sly would have been more careful.

Blah blah

UNVOTE:

[Jal]

Actually, that just just means you aren't connected to Sixx and and the NYPD scum only heh.

I can't even find my stupid role pm in my inbox after rearranging it. Feel free to point it out to me.

[Jal]

Because I used the the role pm

you quoted in your initial post which is in the OP

that you used, you know, for your glaring example and I can't see it.

[Jal]

Oh fuck I think I see it now. Why not vote him for it?

And yes, blue mafia. The link Baby Spice used earlier had red coloring as norm for a one scum game.

[Jal]

That doesn't even make sense considering there's a fucking town pm in the OP which you used, which we are talking about now.

[Jal]

Okay, I admit to just being an idiot.

I thought Parama pushed more on Sixx's lynch, but he seemed to be arguing more so with Idiot King abut getting votes on players. He thought what Sly initially said was scummy though, which lined up with my thinking which made me really think he was town, but what he wrote actually does look bad now concerning the cars and Sixx. Not sure on his alignment, but he can't be ruled out of a scum team with Sixx.

Going to say Darthe is not scum with Sixx given the constant push he had on the wagon.

NJ, the fact is that anyone could just look at the role pm especially given that it was quoted in the thread by Sly. By the way, you forgot to answer my last question: What made you start talking about other scum team stuff earlier?

[Jal]

Darthe, was Bumi vouching for Sixx scum in your QT after his vote on Sixx in post 867?

The thing about Bumi, was that I was just in a game with him where he was totally wrong about the scum team. He listed all of the scum team as town, some with his highest read, he then went on to help lynch a town player and tunneled on town the next day and then we just lost.

Basically, he isn't the

greatest

of scum catchers.

[Jal]

B&B - One thing I forgot to mention: AJ started the Thez wagon before the potential Ztife or Sixx wagon popped up. It would be a counter to the Thez bandwagon after getting off of AA. No, I still haven't actually looked at AJ. I am laazy.


Darthe - Neighbours can be town with each other. For example, I think it was IdiotKing and Jacob who were town neighbours in a recent game together in Mini 1390. I do think he has less enthusiasm than in our previous game together, but I know part of that can be explained by how awful it was bleh.

I'll get back to this in a bit.

[Jal]

Just to throw this in here: I think Peregrine is just plain town this game. Mostly just gut. The way he uses meta for Njoseph seems kinda townish and I've seem him do something similar in the one town game I've been with him in, but mostly it's his tone this game. He just seems just different from what I'm used to from scum-him.

[Jal]

I know they can be, but typically they aren't.

Not that I disagree, but why pere?

I know that the more you have in the neighborhood the more likely it is to be scum. I don't know how typical one is scum in general beyond that.

And Pere because I've been in three games with him where he was scum in two. We were scum together for five months and I feel he doesn't have the same tone here as he did in the 90s Cartoon game especially. He seems more like he did in Buckshot.

[Jal]

Eh, mind rephrasing? I've had nothing to do with the Thez wagon. I was on AA for a while and Njoseph's case (and am hoping he gets night killed so I can end worrying about him). Other than that, I have not placed a serious vote elsewhere.

Oh dear lord please read. B&B said the NJ wagon was a counter to the Sixx wagon where I'm saying it isn't.

[Jal]

I could do Darthe wagon. Sexy.

I 100% do not see a scum Darthe outing his neighbour partner like that and try to push a lynch. Darthe is in my town category.

I am more confident in AA town than Bumi town. AA scum in my game with her did crap all.

B&B, let me get back to you on that. I am way more up to an AJ wagon versus Ztife (unless Ztife refuses to properly reply) right now, mainly based on the Sixx flip. I honestly have failed to fully read a Njhamainperson wall.

[Jal]

I really just want to go back through the game and break down people first.

[Jal]

Why do you have such a scum read on someone who is probably just a newbie being stupid about no lynching which happens in almost every game with a newbie?

[Jal]

How does doing that make her scum though?

[Jal]

I'm not seeing how B&B's actions are incriminating AA here.

[Jal]

Also Thez, I forgot. I didn't mean "partners" so much as being in a neighborhood together but yeah.

P=edit: what does that have to do with B&B and AA though?

[Jal]

You know, I just thought I read it wrong but you're right. Suspect queries in the qt (which made me first question what was said) really does sound like they have qt talk.

Also, after the Sixx flip Sly really shouldn't be the top suspect for today if anyone read our back-and-forth together.

[Jal]

I just realized I was reading Roger and Robert as one person. How were you guys already having suspect queries in the qt prior to the game?

[Jal]

Bumi and Darthe aren't scum together. It doesn't make sense for Darthe to suddenly put suspicion on his partner when there wasn't a whole lot there to begin with. Scum have nothing to gain from that. At the very most they would be scum from different teams, but I don't really see scum-Darthe putting attention on himself like that.

Why Darthe and not Bumi? I am really not seeing a scum-Darthe, B&B.

[Jal]

Bumi: Why did you do a self-vote instead of just replacing out?

[Jal]

What was the point of self-voting if you are just town? No one was voting for you.

[Jal]

--

You know what no.

UNVOTE:

519 makes ztife an unlikely sixx partner. 907 probably means either aj or parama is scum. Town read on Parama means scum AJ.

VOTE: AJ

Why AJ?

[Jal]

If Ztife is really a scum doctor then this game is really stupid with all the scum protection roles.

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

I noticed he was one of the few to move onto Ztife once Sixx claimed, and I have a greater town read on others (Thez) who shifted wagons as well when pressure got off of Sixx.

[Jal]

Wouldn't TML have to be on the Sixx wagon for this to be a strong point?

How would that make sense? My whole point is that I think TML is scum with Sixx who avoided the Sixx wagon.

Look at the wagons when Sixx claimed until Sixx was mod killed. Most people on the Sixx wagon moved onto the Ztife wagon with the exception of a few additions such as Thez, TML, and AA. Most of these same people who moved wagons are probably not aligned with Sixx. We already know Ztife is probably not aligned with Sixx and that NJ was the counterwagon to Sixx - a wagon which crumbled once Ztife got ran up.

I'm betting that at least one of the people who moved onto Ztife's wagon while avoiding Sixx initially is blue scum, and I think it's most probable that it's TML.

[Jal]

I wouldn't be surprised either, but I really don't know who.

[Jal]

Actually, Jeck might fit that bill since he was on and off the Ztife wagon and went back on it again once Sixx claimed and people moved.

[Jal]

Darthe, dear lord just answer CKD so he'll stop being an in-thread. douche

Thez, please explain to me what exactly Darthe is doing to tempt your hand.

[Jal]

X that period there.

Mini, I see that you have been online, where are you?

[Jal]

Yeah, he didn't really have a lot of interaction with Sixx, mentioned Sixx afterwards, or much really. It was Peregrine's interactions with NJ that made me feel that he was town though. He just felt less serious than I am used to seeing.

P-edit: CKD is being significantly more "douche-y" than from our last game together and I'm not just talking about towards Darthe, BUT I AM SURE DARTHE ANSWERING WOULD HELP.

[Jal]

@Edo

,

@Nacho
Maybe my reasoning should lead me to a scum read on TML as opposed to a town one. Noted.

Where did Nacho talk about TML between this post and your prior post to this? I can't find anything.

[Jal]

Are you sure about this?

Explain.

[Jal]

Pere, are you ccing Mini or something?

[Jal]

The cop car comment kinda seems logical, but I can see what people are getting at about the stop looking into it. But would a Parama who is scum with Sixx make this first post?

Vote: Sixx

Because you're not Slaxx.

Are you talking about the fact Parama voted for Sixx? 'Cause I've had a partner vote me in RVS.

I really wouldn't be surprised if scum (including Sixx) didn't realize Sixx messed up badly. No one other than Sly said anything about it, so I don't think it's a valid answer that would be scumbuddy parama may have realized it.

but anyway,

Mini, shouldn't you be claiming jailkeeper?

[Jal]

I know shit all about cars, nor do I care to look them up. Dear lord I joined the wrong game.

[Jal]

Guys, most of the people still on the TML wagon barely even post. Whining about it over a span of a few hours isn't going to do anything. Also, I found first aid tool boxes online regardless of spelling.

Whatever. I'm just done with this day. I'm following The Three Douchekateers into oblivion. That did not look like a reaction test to me.

VOTE: Killerjester

He's also the most annoying.

[Jal]

Dear Lord am I ever starting to have second thoughts about njoseph lately.

[Jal]

Town.

You are just all over the place.

[Jal]

I don't think I need to grovel to the rest of the town to prove my alleigance.

Replace "town "with "you," then proceed take this statement as my answer to you.

Because I'd rather lynch someone who is is a liability rather than someone who could possibly help us

Being a liability is a piss poor reason to vote for someone. Why her over someone who you think is scummy?

On a side note, I kept dreaming last night Thez was scum. What an awful sleep.

[Jal]

Killer, I see you posting around. Where are you, boi?

[Jal]

On a side note Arc should not be left alive in lylo as a policy, I find her possibly town and probably scumming because she's learning rather than scummy because she is scum. I don't know though it could just be she's learning but she happens to be scummy.

Scummy, but not scum. You said she was possibly town here, champ.

Let me reword: Why her over someone you possibly think is scum?

I don't think she's scum because she actually.. posts. She didn't post crap all except ask for the VC and get upset with me over calling her a he last game for one post.

[Jal]

That bandwagon is not going to happen today. Contrary to popular belief, very long days aren't good for town. The game starts stagnating, scum lurk, and shit all gets done. See: this thread.

Now, notice how about half of those being bandwagoned, ztife and KJ, are saying shit all but are obviously around the site? Yeah. Notice how those who are talking are getting ran up more quickly now (llama, AJ)? Yeah.

B&B: Give me the AJ case. I read his posts, they seem shitty, but I don't know if I would call them "scum-shitty."

[Jal]

That bandwagon is not going to happen today. Contrary to popular belief, very long days aren't good for town. The game starts stagnating, scum lurk, and shit all gets done. See: this thread.

Now, notice how about half of those being bandwagoned, ztife and KJ, are saying shit all but are obviously around the site? Yeah. Notice how those who are talking are getting ran up more quickly now (llama, AJ)? Yeah.

B&B: Give me the AJ case. I read his posts, they seem shitty, but I don't know if I would call them "scum-shitty."

[Jal]

I'm going to catch-up to this thread by tonight.

[Jal]

You aren't full of it, are you Matt?

I have a pretty well-known track record

I'll let my actions woo you

Woo me.

VOTE: MattP

[Jal]

Aj, give me a rundown of all who you think is scum. There must be more than two people.

I have this weird gut feeling that the only reason our host made a point to potentially delay the start of day until killerjester was replaced indicates that killerjester was scum. For a townsperson replacement, you throw them to the wolves, let them catch up as soon as they can....but if killerj was scum, and inactive, then the next day couldn't start until he was replaced, because he needed to kill someone, and if he was inactive, he wouldn't submit who he wanted to kill.

For the record, on this website nights get extended regardless of alignment to prevent speculation on this very thing.

Pere should seriously know better about this since he's been on the site for awhile.

@Pere

, Jmo did vote for Thez yesterday. It was in a spoiler tag.

[Jal]

Jacob, who are you going to vote for?

Also major FoS on Jal if she doesnt help me lynch the crap out of AJ today. Im squinting in your general direction, Jal...

You have to woo me too.

[Jal]

Just looked up StrangerCoug's mod meta for the past year to see if that could actually be a good point, but I couldn't find a situation like ours where someone replaced during the night.

Pere, what's the jmomumbo case beyond the vote dealio?

[Jal]

I think he may be very paranoid town who makes scummy posts and pushes lynches on people based on his own confirmation-bias.

Example:

B&B is scummy.
B&B doesn't die at night.
B&B must be scum.

When he explains his logic I can kind of get him. I don't think his tracker thing is scummy - because why would scum actually intentionally out crap like that? Or town, really. I think he just meant he was moving on.

Your turn: What is your read on Thez's recent post?

Also, where is Mastin?

[Jal]

I forgot - I asked you for an AJ case yesterday. Mama is still waiting.

[Jal]

I've been saying why I think hes scummy all game >.>

Mastin's around. He was posting in our QT just before the Day2 opened up. So I think we just missed him.

We want to discuss our favorite target a bit more before going full speed ahead. We will compile a case shortly.

Also where do you stand on KJ/mattp right now?

I want something more compact. Nacho spoiled me. I really just don't have a gut scum feel on AJ.

Also, considering I voted KJ yesterday and I am voting Mattp now, I'mm gunna go with I think he's teh scummorz. I haven't been impressed by his entry either. He has enough time to post but apparently not read anything. Okay.

[Jal]

It will be the Bumi wagon for me.

VOTE: Bumi

Why?

[Jal]

Jal, you played with him in Scummy Cartoons mafia. What is your thoughts on PV's play compared to there?

Town-read on PV D1 because his interactions with NJoseph which were part meta and part light weight which didn't seem much like his scum self. Seems more like how he used arguments for reads in Buckshot Mafia.

I don't think I've seen PV use meta as scum.

That's the first vote he's ever made on my slot all game and it's RVS

I was voting your slot a good portion of yesterday, champ. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding RVS either.

Also, posting around the site while saying you're busy here doesn't really make sense.

[Jal]

Bumi: I have a lurking suspicion that he may be scum, may push this case later today.

Uh, you're voting him. I really would hope that you think he is scum.

[Jal]

Yawn, Albud you always seam happy with my death why didn't you use your nightkill

What are you talking about here? Also, why are you fence-sitting today?

@Skyhook

, I'd like to hear more about who you think is scum based on play rather than outside theories. I have no idea where you actually stand right now.

[Jal]

VOTE: MattP

I love 'dem counter-bandwagons that keep sprouting up.

Jacob, you're going to have to explain to me how you went from promising you'd vote for KJ D1 on behalf of Nacho, failing to do so when the bandwagon was building up D2, and then today you conclude that Njoseph must have been killed because he suspected MattP (what?), followed by you jumping ship when a possibility of another bandwagon came up?

Also, how is ML confirmed town?

[Jal]

I was roleblocked last night Really the only explanation for B&B's death.

Could also mean a strongman if this is true.

[Jal]

Okay, sorry I've been sick for the past weekish. Should have went v/la. I'll get back on this by tonight/tomorrow morning.

[Jal]

I don't think your scum but I also think MattP / his Replacement is probably town.

Tell me when and how the KJ and Mattp slot became town after the end of D1 to this post.

Considering Sixx was never lynched.....
i am wondering how genuine your whole theory on Sixx being transparent scum and you happen to point him first..
and about Jacob, so what..you have pointed FoS over Sixx, that should make you town?

Any more reasons you have got?

Albus wasn't the one who disbanded the wagon. I don't even know if he posted during the time the wagon disbanded and the mod kill. Albus could be scum (the flip flop on Thez early game is horrible), but he is for sure not Sixx scum. He had no reason to direct Nacho off Ztife onto scum partner Sixx, and we know Ztife isn't scum so it's not like that is his scum partner.

[Jal]

I'm feeling a bit bleh over the KJ/Mattp/Deas slot, especially when they have barely produced content to comment on and that wagon is not going places. I'm going to go with a gut scum read I've had for awhile:

VOTE: Edosurist

I think he's one of the few possible blue scum possibilities who were on Sixx wagon. He also has been barely in the game. At all. His recent bandwagoning post is horrible too.

[Jal]

Scum tunnel. Town tunnel.

What do you think makes what Albus is doing a scum tunnel?

[Jal]

Baby, thoughts on Edo and his nothingness.

[Jal]

This is something I've been working on for awhile

VOTE COUNT

ArcAngel9

(1):

SlySly

Bumi

(1): PeregrineV

njoseph

(6):

Aj The Epic

,

nhammen

, thezmon221, havingfitz, The Mini-Librarian,

Sixx

Sixx

(10):

Albus Dumbledore

,

Parama

,

Nachomamma8

,

njoseph

, killerjester, Edosurist,

Darthe

,

Bumi

,

Ztife

,

Jal

The Mini-Librarian (1): Robert2424

Ztife

(2):

BirdAndBeast

,

jeck

Not voting (4): PMysterious, JacobSavage,

ArcAngel9

,

Baby Spice

People Who Probably Aren't Blue Scum

(but don't have a clear town read)

Baby Spice

- Pointed out how how SC has used jailkeeper has a mafia PR. No reason to divert attention back to scum buddy like that. I think Baby put her vote back onto Sixx at this point when people were taking votes off.

Jeck/UVwhatever/Penguin Slot:

Sixx kept taking the shit out on Jeck particularly around the time Jeck was pushing him and Jeck was gaining some heat from B&B and I.

Albus Dumbledore

- He diverted the initial wagon off of Ztife onto Sixx. Scum partner wouldn't do that when there was a free town wagon Nacho was pushing

Sly/Skyhook

: Pointed out contradiction in pm. No reason for buddy to do that at that point in the game. Put your lame "he knew the mod kill was coming" conspiracies away.

People Who I Think Are Are Town

Darthe

- No scum motivation to out himself as a neighbor and push a scum read on Bumi, just to potentially get lynched for being wrong.

ArcAngel

- Basing this one on pure meta. I've already linked a scum game of hers in comparison.

What we know

The Sixx wagon was mostly composed of town and probably some members of the other scum team. A scum busser may be involved - Edo or KillerJester

Njospeh was the obvious counter-wagon to Sixx. We are probably looking at one or more blue scum in-between Thezmon, TML, CKD. I like the former two rather than CKD as being scum. CKD is being douchey. That is odd. He's also doesn't seem interested in looking for blue scum connections - but that's relative to me. I don't think I'm willing to lynch him today, regardless. I still have him as a townish read. His complaint regarding the scumminess of KJ's proposal was entirely legitimate. I'm thinking the former two here.

Peregrine and Jmj aren't scum together.
CKD and KillerJester aren't scum together
Jmj and Thez aren't scum together.
Jmj and Thez aren't scum together.


To scum it up, Sixx scum is here:

Peregrine
Thezmon
CKD
TML
KillerJester
Edosurist
JMJ
JacobSavage
Boniface

If I were to take out my semi-town reads and

assume

that TML isn't scum lying (and I have my doubts), the list is narrowed down to KJ, Edo, JMJ, Boniface, and JacobSavage.

[Jal]

Actually, you're right. I think a scum buddy would have responded a lot more to their partner's question

[Jal]

Edo's defiance to Penguin's town read is really bizarre since he's arguing a town read. Urgh.

The Sixx wagon may have been all town/other scum maybe. You'd think someone would bus, though.

[Jal]

What are you guys specifically referring to?

[Jal]

Edo arguing someone's town read is definitely a town tell. I don't support the wagon anymore.

UNVOTE:

Pere's lafest posts brings back my confidence that he's town again.

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm definitely looking at a lynch between DV/Jacob/Boniface today.

[Jal]

Actually, I just noticed that Jacob has basically sat back and done relatively shit all while Albus and Baby Spice argued over his towniness/scumminess. His recent posts do nothing to even help advance the game or help out. He has been staying relatively quiet once suspicion got put on his spot.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JacobSavage

[Jal]

Jal, JacobSavage is V/LA according to the activity overview, for purposes of getting a reaction out of him.

He has been v/la since Wednesday. The in-fighting over his alignment and his wagon started before then. He's also been ignoring most of my inquiries.

[Jal]

JMJ WHERE ARE YOU? I KNOW YOU'RE STILL IN THE GAME.

[Jal]

Is that it?

[Jal]

Also, we're not lynching Angel because of whatever reasoning that she'll be bad at lylo. That's stupid reasoning to promote a mislynch. You guys had your chance D1 to get any policy lynches out of the way. She's here to stay unless you can convince us that she's actually scum.

If you want her gone, just do what I do when I'm unsure of alignments: call her townie as crap and hope the scum team kills her. Not like they're trying for scum anyway unless the derps actually thought B&B or Njospeh were scum.

Also, that meta in wow is way different as I've already pointed out in my own argument in why I think she's town.

[Jal]

I want to lynch DeasVail, but I would be okay, I suppose, with lynching Edosurist or Skyhook.

Of you want to lynch him, why aren't you voting for him?

[Jal]

Yeah, AA is not scum and that lynch is not even viable today. Please hop onboard one of the people I labeled as probably blue scum if you can't decide who to vote for next.

[Jal]

Hilariously enough, just about everyone who has had AA as a strong town read has gotten night-killed. I'm loving how wrong Sly's reads have been.

[Jal]

Slaandar, I read that as her trying to build reads off on information (Sixx's mod kill) that we already have and working on possibilities regarding it.

[Jal]

Also: Jacob has been like this long before his v/la.

[Jal]

Regarding the Bumi + Darthe thing. Bumi never denied anything Darthe said which originally convinced me that Darthe is just being confusing but correct. Bumi flipped town- so there's no point in going over this again. Bumi would have been on Darthe's ass otherwise.

I'm feeling a bit bleh lately about this game right now. I hope to get my head in gear later tonight or tomorrow or sometime.

[Jal]

Yeah. I've been hunting Sixx scum for most of the game. Why specifically 3v3 by the way?

To be clear, AA is not being lynched any time this century. AA was a lynch target for both Thez and Baby Blue. That is not scum anything.

Going to bring back the table (although Sixx scum in this instance isn't as important for finding out Baby scum leads):

VOTE COUNT

ArcAngel9

(1):

SlySly

Bumi

(1): PeregrineV

njoseph

(6):

Aj The Epic

,

nhammen

,

thezmon221

, havingfitz, The Mini-Librarian,

Sixx

Sixx

(10):

Albus Dumbledore

,

Parama

,

Nachomamma8

,

njoseph

,

killerjester

, Edosurist,

Darthe

,

Bumi

,

Ztife

,

Jal

The Mini-Librarian (1): Robert2424

Ztife

(2):

BirdAndBeast

,

jeck

Not voting (4): PMysterious,

JacobSavage

,

ArcAngel9

,

Baby Spice

Person Key

:

Havingfitz is

Slandaar

Robert is

Allyra

PMysterious is

Boniface

Orange

are persons I believe aren't Sixx scum but can possibly be Baby scum.

The Baby Spice kill really wants to make me say Slandaar. I have to agree with our dear late Jacob that we're seeing more of a town Slaandar this game (he's being his smuggy self) but it's hard to truly tell in multiball. The question is also if he would be that blatant. Slaandar? Maybe. He's also one of the few I pointed out yesterday as CKD wasn't very concerned whatsoever for looking for scum off the Sixx wagon. Was also one of the few on Nacho's purge list:

AJ, Bumi, CKD, Edosurist, KJ, PV, Ztife

A Baby Spice kill is also a noticeable difference from blue scum's usual tactic of killing big time town reads which can be explained by a change of person in-slot. Unless they truly thought Nacho and B&B were scum - yeah, no.

The Thez kill is kind is a bit funny since most of the pressure was on him D1 - so why kill him last night? I didn't pay attention towards the end of D3 but it may have been someone who still had a scum read on him. If they were going for town reads, why not AA or Darthe instead?

Edo can definitely also be Sixx scum. I will go more into my thoughts on Edo later. I just finished a game with him so I can elaborate more.

I'm going to take a look at Baby's reads and Thez's wagon and early reads to find some overlaps. Having Baby be nk'd instead of having a full fledged wagon on her will really suck in finding connections. Jacob's wagon most definitely became a counter wagon, with anyone in this bracket (excluding baby and Arc themselves):

JacobSavage (9): Albus Dumbledore, Jal, Edosurist, thezmon221, [

Boniface, PeregrineV, The Mini-Librarian, Baby Spice, ArcAngel9

]

Especially most likely to be red scum as it's after Edo joined that the Baby scum movement took off.

This is when the game gets gud. Darthe, get back in here. Be back later.

[Jal]

It's pretty clear who Blue scum killed you derps. It's in the flavor:

Nachomamma8, who was Alex Fields, the driver of a 2005 Volkswagen Jetta R GT and a vanilla townie,

has been incarcerated on Night 1

.

You watch the news at your hideout. You wonder why you do this, given it only ever talks negatively about the Midnight Racing Club.

Chester Goldstein was the next racer to end up in the clink, being led out of his 2012 BMW 135i and into a police cruiser.

BirdAndBeast, who was Chester Goldstein, the driver of a 2012 BMW 135i and a vanilla townie,

has been arrested on Night 2.

[Jal]

Jal amuse me

why did you focus on this list in particular?

I see lots of town names there so why take it as some kind of evidence over every other dead towns scum list?

I don't. But it's reasoning for why they wanted to kill Nacho that night given

he has

mostly all town on his list - meaning probably at least one blue scum is on there. Even if Nacho was being super duper town, if you see he's wrong and able to push mslynches like he did on Ztife with his town cred, why get rid of a potential mislynch maker or someone who can hunt the other scum for you? Nah.

I don't see what's so hard to logic-out here.

I believe that was his latest list, so that's why that one in particular.

[Jal]

I brought up Nacho's kill in particular because of its possible connection to you as additional reason for why you may be scum.

B&B's reads were basically all over the place and he wasn't really persuasive in getting town to go to where he wanted it to go (see his first push for Ztife). I can't figure out why he was killed beyond being "really town." The fact that he was killed after Nacho means him and his reads were less of a threat, so the ordering means more than just them being two big town reads.

[Jal]

See, this is my problem with you:

Hes scum because he knows who blue scum have been killing ie hes red scum.

Jal dies today this is a guaranteed scum lynch.

You think I had some inside information over who the blues killed. Your first conclusion isn't, "oh hey, she might be blue scum" it's that I'm

red scum

That does not make sense.

CKD was similarly not following connections with Sixx. He made a small comment about Jeck possibly being scum partners with Sixx. He didn't go much for Jeck and focused on KJ's slot because he felt it was with Sixx scum. That doesn't make sense given CKD's main attack on KJ being that KJ didn't think Sixx was scum. What?

[Jal]

I called Thez townie because he reminded me of myself in ADWD which I explained and then linked to later. The same game where I was later lynched (as a townie) in-part because I was going after some big ass town read who was stupidly going after me and people thought I was scummy for it.

I don't care. I still stand behind my initial town read of Thez because this happens in almost every game with a few people.

what kind of moron kills off his biggest suspect?

In a multiball game. A game with multiple scum hunting scum. A game where no prior "other" scum has been found. In a game with people like you who think exactly this. Whoever killed Baby Spice obviously suspected her because it wasn't a "let's go for the townie" kill. It is also a common tactic to scum hunt properly during the day.

and what is the purpose of going through blue scum changing tactics? killing off obvious town is always a good strategy, whether they're right or not. you also, in multiball, don't start with cross-killing unless you want to make it very difficult for your team to make it to the end. cross-killing is a good idea starting about now.

you look like you're trying to be busy doing townie analysis, but you're scum.

It doesn't matter what is right or proper. Things don't go that way. Most scum don't come into the game thinking, "yes it is N3 when we shall start killing scum!" Nope. Their tactics changed. Which could actually also mean they killed off most of the people who perceived them as scum. Also, you can say whatever you want, but the fact is Nacho was killed prior to B&B means something.

As scum, I wouldn't need to look busy given the fact that it's

multiball

and I'd be looking for scum anyway. Beep Boop. So pay attention.

[Jal]

For the record, the fact that red scummy-poohs didn't go for Nacho themselves probably means he wasn't a threat and probably didn't list them as scum or went after them terribly.

[Jal]

OKay, I get what you're saying Slandaar.

@Boni

, he isn't saying that red scum would be let in. Red scum would definitely know who they killed, and given the flavor it's obvious who blue killed. All kills beside those are in-between. Until the vig's death, it has been the blue scum left mostly out of the dark.

I have no clue what side brought on Aj's lynch. Baby was on Aj's lynch, which can mean anything.

Pere, I have no idea what you were trying to get at with your reply to my post.

[Jal]

What do you guys think of Edo disputing a town read on himself yesterday? I thought it was a bit townish.

[Jal]

Jal, whats your opinion about Mini , Edosurist and Boniface and Albus?

Mini: Town don't seem like they have a lot of PRs so I can kinda buy him being a back-up and is one of the reasons I am choosing to believe his claim.

Edo: At odds with - but his whole arguing with Penguin thing makes me think town. He is hard as shit to read. Even when we accidentally made ourselves masons in a game, I told him in the QT that he was scummy and I would think he was scum too. He is the only person though who I can fathom having bussed Edo. I'm having trouble believing that was an all non-blue wagon. Scum do like dem buses.

Boniface: Scummyish. thought pm was scummy and acting differently. Boniface hasn't really changed my mind and I don't like the way he was towards Albus.

Albus: His last post on D3 made me think he's town He's so confident in Jacob's lynch. I can't see scum on scum teams doing that. That and his push on Sixx and Baby's push on him eliminate him from the scum pool.

[Jal]

their suspect...but their lynchable suspect? nah. the only time scum kill off one of their suspects is when they artificially "suspect" someone. they don't typically kill off the person they suspect who is lynchable. the only only time i've killed off one of my suspects in multiball has been when they've been completely unlynchable. so you're trying to claim that slandaar maybe killed off his biggest lynchable suspect so that he'd be what? lost without someone to push today? i don't buy it and i don't think you buy it either.

Slaandar had an entire scum team figured out apparently, so he wouldn't be "lost." Plus, he's Slandaar. I listed the reasons why it would be plausible. Anyway, if I was confident in him being scum I would be voting him. I already listed the kill being blatant as being against him. I already listed him as acting town. I put my thoughts out for discussion. You make this argument like you acknowledge I am actually scum hunting then make it like I am fake scum hunting Slaandar. It doesn't work both ways no matter how you try it to make me fit the mold. Even he acknowledges I'm actually genuinely scum hunting regardless of his thoughts towards me.

[Jal]

But let me do some scum hunting for you thar:

If Ztife is really a scum doctor then this game is really stupid with all the scum protection roles.

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

I noticed he was one of the few to move onto Ztife once Sixx claimed, and I have a greater town read on others (Thez) who shifted wagons as well when pressure got off of Sixx.

I jumped on TML's wagon right away when it was presented. D1 on someone I was thinking was maybe town prior? No.

---

I don't like the way PV has sort put suspicion on me but hasn't done anything to actually act on it. If he agrees with Slandaar's assessment, then why is he voting for Deas? He just further pushes the idea that I somehow just knew the kills (and therefore being scum) without actually voting himself.

He then does this whole thing about not knowing who killed what. It's been pretty obvious since NJoseph's death who he killed and Pere's been in the game this since then, so he doesn't have Slaandar's excuse of not reading. This has already been a discussion as of D3.

VOTE: Peregrine

P-edit: That's what you said earlier. That you listed them.

[Jal]

@Jal- I had you mostly as a town read until part of your today posting. Even then, you explained it. Why do you think I'm suspicious of you?

You just made it clear you were suspecious of me by pointing out what I said didn't look like what I said. You also just said in this sentence that you mostly has me as a town read until a part of your posting today, meaning you still are suspicious of me and not acting on it.

Right now, you're mostly ignoring the discussion over my wagon. If you still had me as a town read, then I figure you'd say something like others are concerning not seeing what they are seeing. If you thought I was scum, you'd vote me.

You're limobing purposely.

[Jal]

That was not a good post to quote Jal. After a blue scum flip you couldn't grasp the idea that the other team ie the red scum don't also have a 'protective role'? They obviously do, unless you were saying ztife couldn't be a scum doctor because your team only has one scum PR and so naturally the other team would only have one too...

Also; I don't remember listing any scumteams.

How the hell does the other team obviously have a protection role? I haven't been in a game where two scum teams have so many protection roles

There has been nothing in this game that has shown that the other team has a protection role either. What is that? You think TML is scum? He's a back-up - not a native protection role and there hasn't been anything saying he's scum other than derp de doo he doesn't like Jal's wagon derp de doo they are scum together.

And if you think that I'm trying to act dum de dum, then feel free to hop on Pere who just magically couldn't figure out who killed who whatsoever after a discussion concerning how I know what blue killed. Then still acted like he had some trouble understanding. Pere is not stupid. It's the one argument people have always used to try and make it like he's town in every game I'm in.

Then why did you said you listed Baby's scum team?

[Jal]

Slandaar, you're twisting what I said. I didn't say other scum doesn't have a PR, just that it's stupid that scum hold so many protective PRs. It's already been shown that scum have some ability to force a lynch during the day and probably a strong man with B&B's death going though. I'mma gunna guess they don't all belong to one team especially given a blue goon was flipped.

Boni if you agree with Darthe then vote someone he thinks is scum. Arguing with AA is useless and I have shown she is obviously not scum with any team.

[Jal]

Slandaar, you're twisting what I said. I didn't say other scum doesn't have a PR, just that it's stupid that scum hold so many protective PRs. It's already been shown that scum have some ability to force a lynch during the day and probably a strong man with B&B's death going though. I'mma gunna guess they don't all belong to one team especially given a blue goon was flipped.

Boni if you agree with Darthe then vote someone he thinks is scum. Arguing with AA is useless and I have shown she is obviously not scum with any team.

[Jal]

* so many would hold.

Blah accidental spam posting.

[Jal]

Slandaar, you're twisting what I said. I didn't say other scum doesn't have a PR, just that it's stupid that scum hold so many protective PRs.

Yes I know what you said.

Lets look at it a different way; TML claims to be RB'ed so we have to assume red can RB or TML is scum. You seem to believe he is town which means you are happy to accept there is a JK and a RB/JK role.

JK on one team RB/JK on another; so, why is it so insane that instead of having a RB role the red has a protective role which is basically the other side of the coin for a JK?

It's already been shown that scum have some ability to force a lynch during the day and probably a strong man with B&B's death going though. I'mma gunna guess they don't all belong to one team especially given a blue goon was flipped.

OK, but you didn't know this at the time (or shouldn't) so it doesn't mean anything.

A JK is a protection role, just like a doctor but with a Rb potential. For scum, it can be used for the exact same purposes as a doctor role for protecting themselves. This isn't rocket science. I very much doubt scum are going to have a bunch of protection across the board. If they do, it's stupid - like I said.

It's the same reason that I very much doubt there are two scum roleblockers in this game like you're proposing with TML - it is stupid, more so for role blockers because of their potential interaction.

A doctor can't even tell if they are blocked or if another role interfered

. TML made an assumption. I right off the bat suggested there's probably a strong-arm vs another roleblocker, champ.

I was roleblocked last night Really the only explanation for B&B's death.

Could also mean a strongman if this is true.

[Jal]

Penguin have you even looked at the AA scum wow game that has been linked? Her meta is different here vs there. She is not scum.

Eh I think TML is blue scum.

Stop.

Whoa baby

VOTE: thezmon221

Definite scum here.

TML casts his first vote serious vote in the game against scumbuddy Thez who had no prior suspicion vs keeping it on his RVS vote or choosing among 23 other choices he could probably fixate on?

No.

[Jal]

Pere, how has Slandaar evolved? What does that mean?

Actually, I'm going to drop my TML town read because he's been posting elsewhere but not there when we're having a debate over his town/scum status for the past few days.

Also, I just realized I was at L-1. Screw that.

[Jal]

DV is more likely town for that than scum.

Why?

Also:

UNVOTE:

I'm back to thinking Pere is town. I'm just going to consider myself shit this game. I got myself into too many games at once.

[Jal]

Mini, you were posting in games other than the one you're modding. You also made a reply addressing your absence in less than 20 minutes after I pointed this out. It looks like you've been reading the thread but not replying during our debate over you until I brought up your actiivity.

VOTE: The Mini Librarian

[Jal]

Slandaar, the only way I see it happening in that scenario is a strong-arm as I said. Maybe a redirector but those are rare in games especially with ones that may have little PRs.

I don't get your argument concerning why a strong arm interacts badly with a JK.

[Jal]

Where

is

Edo anyway? He's pulling the same stunt as Mini.

[Jal]

I'm vanilla townie.

????

Are you scum Jal?

Okay seriously, why the hell would someone start a case and put suspicion where there wasn't any on their own partner in the first few pages? That's stupid.

[Jal]

lol

I was joking but your reaction is so bad.

The answer to your question is thus; He did it so you are wrong. The fact you don't see it even now is a bad sign.

Yeah, I didn't deny it. Obviously I was wrong. I expressly say just how stupid it is to do that. Reading comprehension, champ. Learn it.

Angel, someone might not claim VT. We just have to wait.

[Jal]

Flavour:

Jarosław Wojciechowski - 1973 Plymouth Barracuda GT.

I'll get back to this later.

[Jal]

Don't think the type of cars matter so much. See Ztife and how his lynch went down for not being a "doctor" car type car which fit his flavour.

We probably wanted to do the car claims in order too because scum are going to have to lie:

Baby Spice, who was Millicent Klein, the driver of a 1999 Triumph Thunderbird Sport and a Death Bikers Mafia goon, has had her vehicle impounded on Night 3.
thezmon221, who was Seán Ó Briain, the driver of a 2009 Chevrolet Impala PPV and an NYPD Mafia goon, has been decapitated on Night 3.

Blues have cop cars and reds have a bike.

@Darthe

: Do you have mcqueen/Edo slot as town?

[Jal]

Okay, good one liners folks.

Mcqueen, if you're town don't self-vote. It doesn't prove anything.

I can't see Slandaar fitting as scum anymore. It would require him hard core busing his teammates when it's probably getting close to end game. People also seem willing to follow him, so I don't see why he would lead people onto his buddies. Town cred only goes so far.

[Jal]

Jal, Why do you think Slaander is town?

I don't think a scum Slandaar would derp bus Baby Spice coming into the game. Red scum didn't have any member lost at that time, so why put pressure on them? He also had the ability to still stick on me yesterday, and instead moved the wagon onto TML. I don't see him fitting either scum team anymore.

VOTE: DV

One of my few scum reads. Don't feel like being trolled into LYLO.

[Jal]

Get to this in a bit.

AA, what?

[Jal]

Okay. I like Wind-up's posts and I'm just going back to my Edo town read on that. I don't know what mcqueen was doing. Seemed like trolling. I don't know why scum would turn things around on the people not voting them either.

This is what I was looking for though; I forgot who said it, it is interesting because you have Jal saying Slys reads are bad but it doesn't make sense why she chose Sly over everyone else why were his reads so memorable

This comment was referring to the bitch-slap fighting Sly and I had D1, particularly how I really doubted that the people he named were scum because they all defended each other and it wouldn't be so blatant.

[Jal]

DV, for someone who says they are town and is obviously around to say stuff, you're saying a whole lot of nothing.

[Jal]

Also, the main reason I'm thinking Slaandy is town now along with Allyra is because they both thought there were three per scum team. I find scum usually can't contain when they have insider knowledge of that sort. I was kinda caught in 90s Cartoon mafia doing that. For an example this game, I was looking back at some interactions Sly and I had when I noticed Thez made this comment about Sly's uneven scum teams.

Sly: Don't you think the scum teams would be most likely equal in number? I mean, in every multiball I've played there's been the same number of scum on either side...

There is really no point in posting this. When most people make these lists, they are putting down possibilities. He even marks down that the list is not comprehensive. It's like Thez just felt the compulsion to just say it for the sake of saying something and to look good saying it.

On the flip side, Sly did make a list that contained 4 scum. I guess that depends if you think hes telling the truth about his list being comprehensive. The thing that has made me back off of any Sly scum read though was how confident and full of himself he was about his role pm win-con. That, and I was wrong about whatever we were arguing about. He was outright giddy during this.

[Jal]

DV is probably red scum for this comment Albus pointed out to me:

@KillerJester - I can provide my town vs scum list but as I've said, I am weak D1, always have been. I'm much better once its D2 and I can get a grasp of who died and why also following my own action (assuming I have one) and finishing it with the initial comments and WIFOM.

I don't see that as a comment between two buddies, but a lame as comment to divert attention away from piss poor play.

Wind-up, what is your read on PV? Speaking of the Llama kill, he wanted PV to be lynched next. B&B also put some pressure on PV and was killed the next night. I'm kinda warming up to PV scum. PV rarely buses. He is not scum with DV in any case and is a candidate for the last blue scum.

[Jal]

Actually, I'm really not too sure on that read. Still want thoughts.

[Jal]

PV is still probably scum. I can maybe buy Penguin scum due to poe. I have a wrong town read somewhere though. Hrm.

[Jal]

Actually, move Penguin Alien to probably scum also. Just realized that is the same slot as Jeck who did that whole "have all town reads" and had an outburst when I called him out on it.

[Jal]

PV, what is your conclusion on who you think is scum?

Wind-up, did you ever answer my question regarding PV?

[Jal]

PV, the thing is I have seen you do this as scum before. You know you might die so you put up a bunch of stuff which concludes to nothingness.

[Jal]

I have Slaandar as town for thinking there are three scum, dealio. I agree with your PA read - and I don't think they are on the same side.

[Jal]

Man, by "they" I was thinking of PV there.

[Jal]

Unlikely red scum because of his catch in #2817, I also think that reduces the possibility of him being blue scum.

How in the world does doing that to red scum somehow make him less likely to be blue scum in fucking multiball?

[Jal]

Confirmed scum Wind is red; Penguin is therefore not.

What?

[Jal]

PV gameplay particularly today reminds me of his scum play in 90s Cartoon on the day his lynch looked inevitable (it apparently wasn't) for reasons I already posted:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4432285

annnd I just remembered Llama was a vig shot, so whatever I said yesterday concerning him suspecting PV doesn't count. B&B did suspect PV before being nk'd, though.

[Jal]

If Wind-up is scum, the most probable partner I can see is Jeck slot.

[Jal]

Because of this combination of putting Jeck down and then white knighting him when B&B goes on the offensive:

@Nacho
Maybe my reasoning should lead me to a scum read on TML as opposed to a town one. Noted.

Re: jeck
That was an... interesting response to BB's post, namely the lack of response to anything, really. You quoted a lot, but didn't say much.

@BB

Post 517. His sentence about "Now that Thez is prob-town Im going to look on his wagon for scummies" is reallllly bad. Apparently Jeck thought Thez was scum for a while so IN HIS MIND it should make some sense for townies to want to be on the Thez wagon. After all, HE is town and HE thought Thez was scum for a spell. So HE should have reason to believe that other townies would vote Thez as well since there was apparently a compelling enough case for HIM to vote Thez. Yet now that he is reading town on Thez he is 180'ing and looking at Thez's wagon specifically for scum? Its an absolutely horrid way to scumhunt because

1. By his own world view, he should understand why townies are voting Thez
2. His theory that Thez is town / wagon is scum is dependent on Thez being town. Why is he suddenly so very sure of that that he is going to devote time to this pool?
3. Why look in this pool unless there is going to be more scum than average in it? If (1) is true (it should be for him), why would there necessarily be more scummies than normal on Thez?

This displeases me. Is this some made up reasoning? He said he wanted to look at who was on the thez wagon to find scum. Suggesting that this is scummy because town would also be on the wagon makes no sense to me. Yes, there has to be town on the wagon, but there was also likely scum trying to push the lynch through. Whether he followed up with pursuing those scum on the wagon is a different story, but it's not an anti-town thing to do.

He then later on proceeded to

rewrite

his response to Jeck later.

[Jal]

Slaandy, spit it out.

[Jal]

Going to have to V/La until Sunday

. Won't be totally gone, but won't be around today with a 10 hour drive ahead of me.

The only blue people are PV with a very outside chance of Wind for giving shit reasoning for

why

PV isn't blue scum and not responding to me and instead trying to harass Slaandar.

If blue scum is as obvious as I think it is, then the best bet is for PV to go into a 2.1.1 situation and hope red scum kills someone else, otherwise lynch.

I can't type more because my gf is whining at me to do stuff. I'll vote later.

[Jal]

I've thought about it.

I agree that our best bet is to lynch blue scum.

I don't think Allyra is scum. I also don't think AA is either. Slaandar had a lot of sway, so if he's scum, why would he attack Baby scum and then help switch the wagon off of me to go lynch blue scum? His interaction with PV really hits as him being town.

To me, it's PV, PA, and Wind-up. I am not sure if Wind-up is scum, I can see him on either side though. PV's plea to me kinda looks townish. If he's town only Wind-up can be blue scum from my point of view.

Urgh.

Okay PV work with me, who is blue scum?

Slaandar, do you think AA was faking being oblivious at the start of today? That looked town to me.

[Jal]

Working through it now.

Allyra is town.

I also gave windup=town reasoning (3206 and 3256).
Can you follow the logic?
Do you agree or disagree with it?

I specifically think 2847 proves you are not bluescum. You brought up actual scumminess by a player under heavy suspicion and explained it all in one sentence. At that point you were no longer in danger, and you could have diverted the wagon from TML or just ignored it if you were bluescum.
Agree or disagree (with the logic behind my conclusion)?

The problem with your Edo doesn't = blue scum the day TML got lynched: Edo did not post in the thread the entire day. Him not being red scum, I see what you mean there.

Whether or not someone hammered yesterday doesn't mean much especially in regard to blue scum who, being one left, wouldn't want to cause suspicion either way.

[Jal]

If mcqueen was blue scum, why wasn't he hammered yesterday? Since I know I'm not red scum, there had to be minimum one red scum off the wagon working with mcqueen as blue, possibly and more likely in that scenario two, since I believe you're town.

This somehow assumes that red scum know what Wind-up's alignment is.

[Jal]

Should have, doesn't mean they would have.

PV. just tell me who is blue scum instead of who isn't.

[Jal]

Waiting for PV to produce.

[Jal]

It'll become pretty obvious if PV is scum or not when PV starts making a case.

[Jal]

Prod dodge as I wait. There is no reason not to wait for PV.