MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)

[Plum]

I tried to find the content, but it seems to be one of

those games

etc. Too many players whose opinion of their own mafia play is coming out of their ears.

VOTE: Cerulean

Empire, elaborate on the purpose of your first post please. In the meantime, this.

Though also my initial reaction was that today is not at all a bad day for LLD to haiku-nuke someone, but in the long run this is actually probably not the case (certainly not if it's mapped out from this point in time) so who cares.

[Plum]

Sure, I'll take it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Venmar

Sponteneity is a virtue, after all.

[Plum]

V/LA until Wednesday night EDT, Passover. Sorry for inconvenience.

[Plum]

Why would a

town framer

ever use his ability if it isn't compulsive? The only way a

town framer

works is if it's negative utility, and it's only negative utility if it's compulsive. Not believing the claim.

Rolecop, etc. Even if that were needed given what everyone's saying about the Moderation team's design ethos.

To summarize my take on the thread since my V/LA:

Everything to do with Tim Howard makes me hate things. Like the meta. Thanks to Hearthstone, I've now learned to complain about it as its own entity, not just as a pseudo-scumhunting crutch. There are just things I can't imagine are reliable long-term scum tactics, that he is consistently doing, but perhaps they are. Harping and harping on Sixty's behavior towards Blue-Tammy to no scumread or scumhunting or possible positive effect, for one (for most, actually, of what I recall of his posting these past two days).

Certainly I only partly get the on-and-off-again Katsuki wagon, which isn't even engaging the guest of honor (so why bother with it?), and am utterly lukewarm on the stuttering attempts to broker a Shadoweh wagon. I'd love to just trust CDB on everything - it would make this hellish Day 1 a lot easier, cut TH and was it Ven or Zed or some other recurring topic out for the noise column right away.

On that note, has CDB done anything this game but say "trust me, meta"? I'm sure I don't recall. Oh, well, not much, besides that Shdoweh push (which in fairness is mild but persistent), though his comment about the gamestate being weird and hard to read is true enough, so I'll hold more complaints and wait and watch there.

Empire: paranoia or not on your first post, I don't trust those tactics (if in a select few, then not in you).

Tempted to vote Nobody Special, so expect one at the end of this post for people who skim for bold official things. It only hurts so much because it's barely better than an arbitrary division of what I'm treating as noise and what I'm treating as signal, and I'm sure there's some very legitimate meta that says this overall tone or behavior or both are normative for NS, but who gives a damn? Frankly, my dear, etc.

I apologize for being one of those who hasn't been in much and has contributed to the pile of people not worthy of trust because no attention drawn to yet, and unnecessarily caused potential future problems to crop up because of that. Most sincerely sorry. I'm sure there are a share of Townies in that pool aside from me, making this all a pain, though hopefully not a tedious chore as we forge on.

Tentatively trust the party on the now dispersed TH wagon more than the average composition of Shadoweh or Katsuki wagons, by the by.

Okay, Nobody Special. I will do my part for this despiriting mess by forcing you out on the field of battle! Only by fighting can we see how you move! And how I move. Because you've just been outright flitting, gently, uselessly, all but silently from one soft suspicion to another hahaha how cute nope no more shadows and lurking for you, you scum. Nor me, me Town. Let me rectify my mistakes.

Join, my friends. Nobody Special goes down or proves his steel.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

[Plum]

Oh wow, much more encouraging response than I expected.

Vote this sucka.

[Plum]

The point isn't even that it's an outright lie because the idea that NS of all people has a handle on the meta of myself, because he cannot possibly. The point is that he can be so flippant about that fact because hahaha it's all buzzwords and it doesn't matter whether it could be true or not, it's irrelevant to the game as it is played, well

I

think

not

.

[Plum]

Sorry, I used wrong pronouns for NS apparently. My bad, sincere apologies, will be more careful about this for all going forward.

[Plum]

NS - I remember you, but I don't have a strong, clear, distinct memory of your baseline Mafia personality. Not playing with you and playing little Mafia for ~2 years contributes to that sort of thing. I have a vague, general feeling that some of what spurred my vote may be baseline/personality stuff, if you're asking. The issues thus far that the Town needs to deal with regarding you are also not, if the problems are generalized a bit, really truly unique to you. I decided to go for it anyway.

@LLD, <3

[Plum]

Sorry, things got ahead of me.

I wish I could say I feel strongly about something this game. Aside from my artificially amped-up but still sincere desire to lynch NS, there's not much. Except for not buying/caring about the Shadoweh line of inquiry at the moment. It's not doing anything for me. And if Tammy's approach to it came from anyone but Tammy I'd be all over it, but since it's Tammy, I'm giving it a little too much leeway.

Do I need to do the scummy thing and MAKE A CASE on NS for things to happen, though?

Do I?

Sixty - when your scumlist isn't 10 people long I'll consider worrying about whether I'm on it. Not that I blame you particularly for that fact. This game.

[Plum]

I'd argue that NS isn't an easy target inasmuch as he is not easy to get traction on, only easy for others to dismiss as an easy target. Or maybe I'm just shit this game so far due to a combination of internal and external factors. He may be an easy target, and I'm not super confident in my read here, but a read it is, will I or nill I.

I do believe NS is deliberately blending into the background. I think the placement of his votes is opportunistic - not in the traditional overblown "lol I can take advantage of it to drive a Shadoweh lynch here and now!" but come out of a desire to take advantage of certain things in the gamestate. I think that was possibly the case with his TH vote and more likely than that was the case for his Shadoweh vote. The stagnation of the Shadoweh wagon is largely to his discredit in this matter. Take a look at the others on it: CDB I'm meh on, but he's interacted about the way the wagon he basically started has been moving a little, at least. I feel there's a reasonable chance he's sincere even though he's minimally readable overall. Chamber, besides other Townish signals, I think is also showing honesty about the wagon he's on and how it's developing. Same with Cerulean (the distractions/multiple foci/getting into arguments with the target all normal). Is it *typical* of NS to do what he's doing? To place this sort of vote and just not give a damn, even though for someone complaining of the pervasive Day 1 malaise in this game, his hook on the game is much stronger and more useful than, say, mine: he having convictions that the one he's wagoning is scum, and she has the largest wagon? Meh.

To votehop a series of bad, irrelevant nonwagons like Rack when he'd done as little as Reck, skip over to the momentarily popular TH wagon, Shdoweh, quick vote off onto me because everything is meta (and for me, being meta is suffering), back to Shadoweh just kinda because? The wagons here that had meaning because they were large or controversial were there for him to merely be on, not remotely participate in.

To hell with it, I'd take that fourth wagon vote twice in a row, no drive, trajectory-obscuring thing as scum. I might well be wrong. And I don't feel super confident about anything here because it all sucks, mkay, will try to get myself together here and IRL, but for the time being, NS.

Sixty, I'd have even said you're right about me being on a nonwagon no one will follow except that every possible wagon has been completely stagnant for about three days and that I'm far from the only one complaining of horrible Day 1 unmooredness, but for you, MIRACLES. They come cheap.

MIRACLES:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tim Howard

You are also on a bad wagon for mediocre reasons and ALSO a wagon that should have gone further and stalled and retreated later than it did, huh. If we want to move things? We'll move them. I'll try to help.

V/LA through Tuesday evening, more Passover

[Plum]

All right, going to try to make this quick/not torture myself:

Townread on sangres via ffery, reading an honest and accurate assessment of me. Slightly less clear, but decent Townread on Awesome hydra, similar reasoning on F16 - he seems to be making an honest effort at evaluating and reevaluating me with his tool of choice (meta, which is not usually mine, but to each his or her own). If anyone affiliated with either of those hydrae wants me to discuss something they brought up that wasn't a direct question (which I'll get to) and that I don't otherwise address later in this post, just say the word.

I still think Tim Howard is a good bet for scum.

Town (Strongest->Weakest): Cerulean, Chamber, LLD, Sangres, CDB, Zdenek, Sixty
Scum are among: {Shadoweh, Plum, Venmar, Katsuki, Nero Cain, NS, Kanye, UT, Reck, Tim Howard}

So maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you seriously saying that you're scumreading 10 people? Because this is absolutely yelling "FALLBACK WAGONS AHOY"

I know there have been other things that happened since our last post but I needed to comment on that before bed because like daaaaaaamn.

Didn't Sixty basically do the same thing? Also, not super convinced by this display of casual spontaneity, just saying. Oh hey, I'd forgotten that this was what Sixty responded to re TH when I skimmed last night.

LLD's power would be

great

Day 1 in terms of increasing chance of killing scum with the effective lynch (working with LLD Town for this hypothetical). It would not be a good thing to plan on doing from the outset - I think, anyway - because it will make Day 1 a much less effective tool in future Days.

Looking forward to seeing TH cover his ass when F16 reconsiders his scumread on me, upcoming in Plum makes sure she doesn't miss anything really important but is pretty sure this happens somewhere along the line. Wait, addendum, nevermind, quick jump to Kats. Mehhhhh.

his comment about the gamestate being weird and hard to read is true enough

Can you say what you were thinking here?

The fact that I was also experiencing the sort of blocks that he describes was suggestive to me that he was operating with the game from the same uninformed/Town perspective I was, which gave some pause to my concerns/paranoia.

I think the placement of his votes is opportunistic - not in the traditional overblown "lol I can take advantage of it to drive a Shadoweh lynch here and now!" but come out of a desire to take advantage of certain things in the gamestate. I think that was possibly the case with his TH vote and more likely than that was the case for his Shadoweh vote.

What things in the game-state do you think that NS was taking advantage of when he voted Tim Howard?

One of the first big serious wagons; he gets on it, he doesn't have to worry about driving the wagon per se if that's not advantageous/will garner attention he doesn't want, he doesn't get yelled at for voting for someone who has no wagon on him/her without a case and without pushing it. It's a reasonable perch from which he can go with the flow. This is mostly regardless of their and TH's mutual alignments. Certainly it's not the only plausible exegesis of the behavior, buuuuut coupled with what I thought was a similar position on the Shadoweh wagon, with the same little substance/doesn't matter because I'm jumping on the biggest wagon in a land of small-fry wagons, etc.

Oh yeah, and Cerulean's #864 effectively eases any remaining paranoia on my part.

Also: MASSIVE TOXICITY (Sixty/Reck). Hoorah. Massive toxicity I don't feel confident drawing alignment-related conclusions from as yet, but we strive for glory.

[Plum]

Here's what I found off about Plum:

1) The way she pushed Tim Howard in Post 1046 lacked any sort of passion, conviction or genuineness behind it. Same with her push on Nobody Special which she later retracted. It feels a lot like her pushes in We're on a Boat and very unlike the kind of genuine pushes she makes as town as evidenced by her push on Paschendale in Attack on Titan where it feels like she actually believes what she is saying rather than posting just to post which is what most of her walls in this game feel like.

2) The meandering nature of most of her posts and the lack of forcefulness again mirrors her scumgame. Plum as town is more involved with the game and tries to stay on top of things. Her play here feels like a perpetual catch-up post where she always lets the game unfold and comes in later with a few pro-town looking thoughts. She's never at any point seized the game by the balls and attempted to solve it.

3) I felt like her townread on us and the simultaneous attack on Tim didn't feel natural "

Looking forward to seeing TH cover his ass when F16 reconsiders his scumread on me

" felt more like subtle manipulation.

~ F-16

1. When I have as much conviction on anyone here as I did on Pasche in that game, you'll know. Very rarely do scum make themselves quite as transparent to me as he did there. And even then they don't

always

make me rage quite so much.

2. I've had a decent amount of V/LA for Passover and am otherwise in real life more stressed out and busy than usual. This is a huge game full of players with too much regard for their own Personalities. I'm trying here.

3. Tuesday night I had just enough time/energy to skim what had happened in the game over a two-day period. Wednesday night, when I had time to reread properly and post, I had a vague memory that you did reconsider your scumread on me (you did. You didn't reverse it, per se, but my point is that you were and reflective of your read on me, which was based on personal meta [and thence, because it seems honest, I have a moderate but relevant Townread on you], and I don't think TH did, even though his read was based on

your

read, so . . .). It was all a reference to what I remembered you having already done, not a nod or a hope to your future actions.

[Plum]

She isn't really DOING anything. She showed up once I made a case on her to offer a point by point rebuttal and then disappeared again. As far as the rebuttal goes, it is decent but as CTD would say, nothing that a competent scum player can't fake.

1. That wasn't a case.

2. Posted this afternoon briefly in response to something entirely about me and hasn't posted tonight yet = disappeared again? You sure about that?

EBWOP: True all that.

[Plum]

It is really obvious that you are following the game because you show up anytime that you are mentioned.

Your point?

[Plum]

Your point? Seriously now.

[Plum]

Named tells are trash, motivation analysis isn't. Guess what.

[Plum]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

[Plum]

So, UT. Time for some quizzing:

Why is Shadoweh Town?

[Plum]

So nu, why do assume she got a Town PM?

[Plum]

ps beetlejuice

[Plum]

pps I have a sense of humor

[Plum]

Re quizzing: I doubt either playing along or refusing to do so will help you much anyway, so, etc.

[Plum]

UT, I aim to lead a discussion

about

you. The rhetorical presentation is not critical to me.

[Plum]

Look at this guy and his Cerulean read:

Do you think either chamber or Cerulean are scum? Or NS? I appreciate the sentiment and I wish I could believe it were true, but there aren't alot of options for it here, so I don't know who those needlers would be.

I'm reading chamber as town. I thought Cerulean's early posts were incredibly scummy, but they've been towntelling lately. I could absolutely support a Cerulean wagon though.

Read: "I am up for whatever future read on Cerulean has utility for me," also, barely touches on Cerulean afterwards except to give this justification for his pseudo-scumread:

Do you really think Tammy was faking any of that conversation? I really don't think she's capable of that.

I haven't played much with Tammy so I can't speak to what she's capable of, I just know that http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5816816 struck me as scum making a nervous joke.

Which in any case doesn't change how he's positioned himself regarding Cerulean.

---

Look at this guy and his reasoning for jumping into the Tim Howard wagon near its height:

they're all over the road

the buddying post at me for townreading them, quadz walking in this morning and going "hey guys let's not get carried away and I think you are being a bit rude don't you think?", the scumread on Zed which is... I mean... what the fuck is that

this doesn't look like a persecution complex so much as a scum hydra trying to play good cop bad cop so people will feel guilty for scumreading them. mayyyyyyyybe I'm super bad at reading hydras, but it looks to me like damage control from a scum perspective rather than a town one

And look at him never mentioning it again or interacting with Tim Howard in a way relevant to this all-but momentary scumread. Even when Sixty calls him out on the vote being bad, he addresses other points but for some reason not the TH vote. ???

---

Look at this guy's appeal to Shadoweh, near the height of

her

wagon:

And I keep opening the thread and then closing it again because Shadoweh's ridiculous histrionics make me just want to die inside. Shadoweh I'm begging you: I've played games with you and you're a GREAT player when you're not flipping the fuck out like this. Please take a chill pill and help us hunt scum. I'd bet my bottom boondollar that scum are trying to make you a nonfactor by needling you out of the game.

Look at him never having interacted with or commented on her play directly outside of answering a couple of questions that didn't touch on Shadoweh's alignment or play, and never doing so again. Whence his conviction that Shadoweh is definitely Town? No clue.

---

tl;dr UT is scum. The dude's votes, scumreads, and Townreads are BS. Vote him, lynch him.

[Plum]

1. We've already mutually established that you're not really the target audience for this stuff, haven't we?

2. I literally could not give fewer fucks about that notion.

[Plum]

...

[Plum]

No, NS was a read that I deliberately used stronger rhetoric for than my convictions were because I was having a hard time connecting to the game and I didn't have very strong convictions about anyone and was frustrated at myself and the game for it. I mentioned before that the rhetoric was deliberately overstated. I am a believer in actions eventually shaping thoughts and attitudes; I felt that if I didn't at least try appropriately with my low-level conviction about NS I didn't have a better plan for turning my game around. That said, I still think NS is a slightly better-than-average bet for scum.

But UT is scum and we should lynch him. There is nothing in that statement that is about pumping myself up to try to get into the game better. I've gotten in. Because UT is scum.

[Plum]

I'll try to get to this tomorrow. I've been feeling really really shitty, sorry.

[Plum]

Dear lord, it's almost as if I didn't acknowledge

at the time

how I felt about my NS push.

I want this one.

Vote: Chamber

Can I kill this one Miss?

Plz don't my kitteh.

Anyway, Shadoweh questioning of TH good (+Townish), their response seems okay. This may be bias because their latest posting is in my favor and against my biggest suspect, buuuuut all things considered it felt natural to me (I mean, I also think that my play today has been much more productive, which etc.) and their feelings about the gamestate on Day 1 and their play Day 1 look consistent enough. Willing to cautiously okay for now.

reading one player as scum because of a townread on an unflipped player is WHOOSH. like. I don't really know how to respond to that.

Out of nowhere talk to Shadoweh as if you

know

she's Town, bro? Along with the other stuff, etc.

[Plum]

I am less convinced than Penguin about Plum-scum at this point but I want to outline the reasons I feel UT is town. Plum, if you could take a look at it and give me your thoughts, that'll be cool.

• UT's Post 719 in defense of Zdenek feels town because he respects Zed as a player and the reasoning he gives resonates on a lot of levels. Now that Wicked Mafia, is over, I'll point out that UT was in the scum QT agreeing with his hydra partner T-Bone that Zdenek "had his shit together" and ought to be killed N1. However, UT also mentioned that he didn't think people were listening to Zdenek. UT's hydra was the primary reason we killed Zdenek N1. From that context, him saying "
  I've watched Zed laser through scumteams and not be taken seriously and I really want to give him the opportunity to shine here
  " came across as incredibly natural. I also like the positive, pro-active encouragement to Sixty and Shadoweh in the rest of that post.
  
• His back-and-forth with Sixty where he tries to persuade them to join the Venmar wagon felt town and I like his engagement with the game in general. Particularly him wanting to change his attitude from the Reckoning game and taking steps to improve that felt very genuine.

1. Some things that are natural to say as Town are just as easy to say in a natural way as scum? I'm sure he sincerely believes Zed has a strong Town game. I don't feel that the instance of his defense of Zed or explanation for it is particularly indicative of Town motivation for his behavior. I find it odd that his analysis of Zed in that defense references motivation as something relevant . . . we sorta disagreed on that when it came to something regarding me (i.e., he seemed to reject the idea that motivation analysis could be relevant to me showing the so-called beetlejuice tell).

2. I didn't think that his desire to change his attitude from the Reckoning game was alignment-dependent? Unless you think he would have abandoned any notion of trying that on drawing scum because e.g. he felt he could manipulate the game better in the old, more acerbic mode he mentions? I don't know, I'm just not seeing these specific interactions you mention as the most relevant or interesting aspects of UT's play. There's so much he's

not

saying, which is part of what I'm seeing as a problem.

Shadoweh, Empire, Plum, Chamber: I need your help for a moment.

I've been looking back at the first day, and there's some thoughts I've had.

Firstly, Reck and UT's interactions are off for me. Really off.

Secondly, UT's interactions with the Katsuki/Tim Howard/Plum wagons are very weird.

Can someoone go back and confirm I'm not going insane?

1. Your Townblock senses are on-point.

2. Gladly! But I'm not always confident looking at things just in ISO, which is all I have the brain for at the moment.

Reck is . . . another player UT never references once as anything but Town? It's possible it's just a quick read sort of thing, but the first few things Reck does that UT finds questionable he talks to/about Reck about not in a way that suggests Reck's alignment motivations for them are in question. It's not egregious like the one-off expression of a similar attitude to Shadoweh? Not sure what to make of Reck's side of things, if anything is actually notable. I'm with chamber, can you highlight stuff?

pleasiez is probably scum

I was kinda feeling it - kinda - kinda - I felt the replace-in posts were a little on the not saying much/easy to fake side, but then I checked and remembered it was CDB he replaced in for, so I'll have patience. CDB looked pretty Town to me.

Cerulean

- Cen you explain to me something from yesterday? Why were you so keen on Zed using his Frame? You were reading him as Town, the claim was pro-Town there's some potential negative utility of the frame whoever it's used on - why did you care that he use it?

[Plum]

Sorry, prodded.

And now he's saying "even if". Suggesting that actually he didn't realise. But the posts above make it obvious that he did.

What is the town motivation for lying like this?

Yeaaaah, fair point fir certain.

Cerulean - your response is perfectly sufficient, thanks

Pless - Yeah, I guess I didn't mention the CDB read in the thread. Didn't even realize that. Probably because for the beginning of the game I found him unreadable. Post #1099 was probably where I started getting a grip on CDB in that way.

it means he's gone beyond 'bad poster' into 'obvious faking scum'

Well this rather ironic given that you were claiming that my blue name made me town.

??????? Your point?

I don't see why UT would jump in to defend Zed if he saw Zed taking heat. He could do it as scum but I've played with him as scum before and I found him to be much more opportunistic and blatant about pursuing a scum agenda. The rest of his posts, I guess it is possible he could fake it but it overall felt genuine to me.

Is this where we get to agreeing to disagree then? That's fine.

NS is STILL scummy, I've skimmed, but I

can't wait

to see how they respond to the developments on TH.

By the way, initially concerned by TH avoiding claiming right away, just because I've seen it fairly recently as a scum tactic (in myself not least), but confirmed stuff, inventing to the players he did, we're good.

why? he should know well enough that if he sent it to someone who wasn't really townreading them, the response would probably be exactly what mine was

send it to someone who is already inclined to townread you and you're more likely to "confirm" yourself

Nope. Hella not buying it. Odds seem slim in the way that means continuing to pursue TH today is a really really subpar move, and I'd be surprised if you didn't realize that.

NS avoids saying or doing anything. Surprise surprise surprise. Oh wait, he also implies that he might want to go back to TH but doesn't indicate anything beyond that. Okay. You do that.

And any vote for Plum is a good vote. She's obvscum, and if you can't see it, well.... (Also, note the difficulty of getting a good-sized Plumwagon. Definitely scum.)

ur mad cuz ur bad

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nero Cain

Not perfectly happy with this vote or lynch. But quite tolerably so.

[Plum]

it means he's gone beyond 'bad poster' into 'obvious faking scum'

Well this rather ironic given that you were claiming that my blue name made me town.

??????? Your point?

its a little funny and scummy that she's calling my posts shit but a 2011 join date claiming that my blue name in the VC's made me town.

It's scummy more than you found it before, then?

[Plum]

que

[Plum]

Someone who makes derpy posts is scummy if she calls someone else's posts scummy? I don't understand this line of pseudo-attack. I certainly feel personally that if I make derpy or otherwise questionable posts in a game I still have not only the right but the responsibility to call out others' posts if I find them scummy. Or were you just mildly offended by Shadoweh implying that at least some of your posts before 'obvious faking scum'-type posts were otherwise 'bad'???

[Plum]

UNVOTE:

This is not claim-prompted.

[Plum]

Nero - I voted for you, yeah, for the Shadoweh 'irony' thing, for the vote thing/fact of the probable recurring controversy over that. And the fact that your wagon seemed very clean and Town to me (certainly the wagoners did). Buuuuut, eh, your responses and so forth (I skimmed your ISO, too, at least in reference to Shadoweh) - they're the sort of thing that I'm willing to swallow my paranoia and say 'if I were skimming this game as an uninterested party, I would not look here and say, yeah, Nero for scum'. I mean, I can lay things out for you. The appeal to 'as Town I think I shouldn't lie, so that's why I said X, why I did X, &c.' is something that I'm tempted to do, both as a show of transparency and because it's the actual explanation for something I said or did,

both

as Town and scum. But I wouldn't bring up that appeal as scum, because it's so transparently and act of transparency. This is hard to explain. Whatever.

I was going to say, hey, I'd lynch kanye over Nero at this point, but it looks like he's not much more viable (looking?) than, say

UNVOTE:
VOTE: UT

Worst case scenario, we'll have time for an alternative, so.

PSA, NS remains a stellar option as well.

[Plum]

Hm, so, actually, I've had a couple of thoughts:

1. UNVOTE: Untrod Tripod until further notice (hat tip Cerulean I guess?), and, further, VOTE: kanyeknowsbest something something paraphrase what UT said something something love the one you're with etc.

Also, major sideeye to kanye over the way he's been approaching TH.

2. If we had, by some grace, more time until deadline, who would be with me in lynching the heck out of NS?

I just had a similar role and felt the need to share but LLD is scum now so I mean...

Hold up, can you link or give a fuller description or something?

[Plum]

Lordy

[Plum]

something something paraphrase what UT said something something love the one you're with etc.

What was this supposed to mean?

yeah well sometimes you have to vote for the wagon you have, not the wagon you want

I was trying to go for "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" about the Kanye wagon as opposed to the wagon I most wanted but didn't have, NS.

Doing some thinking.

[Plum]

Sorry for being a loser. Aaaanyway.

Did some quick ISO skimming just to look at what the newfangled people call trajectory re kanye. And some other people as needed. So VOTE: Venmar

yarrr

[Plum]

FA, you're being a little bit obtuse/circuitous but your conclusions are probably decent in a general way (I'll give you a hint, apparently there's a degree to which I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't improve my play/start pushing things better after being called out on it? Also trying to meta-assess my inclination to bus based on one scumgame where I had

one

buddy in a 13-player game? I'm just saying there are definitely some things here that you're taking a very blunt approach to).

Kanye was pushing the idea that TH's proven claim and the way it all came out had

no

effect on whether he was likely to be scum-aligned. That just seemed wrong to me. It wasn't as if he really did much with the notion, and at this point I'm not sure if that was a move supposed to support a specific agenda on kanye's part vs. just spreading the Mist - in fact, at no point could I particularly parse it.

I first really noticed UT when he rejected motivation &c. based thinking about the "beetlejuice tell" regarding myself. Then I did some thinking and reading, mostly of him.

[Plum]

FA - They're all old as sin, but sure, lemme find some for you.

POWERFUL WIZARD MAFIA: AN INTERLUDE lord this was so long ago I had no memory of being scum with Reck and kanye. Oh, okay, it was a super short game .
Open 298 - no real memory of this game but looks like I didn't do well.
Might of Mordor - played so badly I got lynched Day 1

and

had a reasonably legitimate scumtell named after me because of it (really a specific sort of buddying, if I recall correctly)

[Plum]

Prod dodge, anticipate a full post ion an hour or two.

[Plum]

1. The more LLD posts the more I don't trust myself to trust her. Reputation precedes her and all that.

That all said:

LLD

- flavor name/justification/whatever for your roleblock ability, please? I understand the haiku-off justification no problem.

Re LLD's case on UT: One of the most interesting things about it is that

Reck

is totally convinced by it. That was something I legitimately did not see coming. Whaaaaat.

Other important question, LLD doesn't really mention UT until Day 2, when she bursts out asking people to confirm whether she's just seeing things or whether the Reck/UT interactions are weird. LLD, what if anything particular set you along that line of inquiry in the first place?

Thirdly:

Vote: Nero

Wagon, ho!

Also, I'll get to you on the Reck/UT thing chamber. Not tonight though.

Why this vote? LLD, can you give some insight? There are specific issues around this vote in particular.

Re UT, my reasons for deciding to go with him-Town as per stuff told to me yesterday may be considerably less strong than I initially thought. That's putting me in a position where I need to be prepared to sort through a lot of cognitive dissonance in evaluating UT as things stand currently.

Reck going back to LLD after he quick UT vote feels REALLY off to me. Something's weird, anyway.

I think that FA's case that UT can't be a kanye buddy is kinda mediocre. Wat.

[Plum]

The vote was to apply pressure, mostly. I wanted to get myself back in the game and out of apathy land. Didn't exactly work, but hey! I'm here now.

Why Nero though?

[Plum]

sorry, just married, still V/LA till Thursday night due to Jewish holiday stuff, haven't read evvverything but

I'd say Ven and Reck are my top priorities, scumwise, when I really get back, Ven more than Reck.

[Plum]

Back. Apologies for the absence.

I still feel reasonably strongly about Reck's chances of being scum, first off.

Wasn't plum on the table at some point

Was this relevant to some point when it was posted?

I'm wary about Flipping Awesome. Chamber and FA had outside-thread contact as of at least the Night before Chamber was killed. Shadoweh knew about this and asked incisive questions about the nature of their communication. Shadoweh is now dead. So, something to keep in mind and pursue and not forget about. Seriously.

Doing some thinking about how likely it is that the scum were split 2/1 on/off the LLD wagon or what . . .

[Plum]

I didn't say Chamber was a self-watcher. I just noted that Chamber was killed at some point after you gained QT access with him. He and Shadoweh also shared QT access, as you noted, and she was privy to at least some material from him regarding the QT the two of you shared. Shadoweh is now dead. I don't care if you don't think her questions were particularly incisive, to be honest.

Reck is part PoE, part, well, has this guy actually done anything this game at all? At all? Besides, look at what wagons Reck was on. Pushing significantly for Nero over kanye as time ran down Day 2, major contributor to the LLD wagon going through Day 3 (after also almost entirely ignoring her all game), basically ignored Venmar the entire game even Day 4. His style of contribution also seems to me to be the sort intended to create more apathy. A lot of filler, really. Is the stated 'I thought I spotted a cop breadcrumb on Kanye Day 2 etc.' thing so weird to be coming from scum that this is all negligible? Hell no. I think a lot of this play is likely to be calculated scum machinations. The LLD stuff especially just reeks of saying whatever will keep things moving forward with the Mist (the bizarre switch to UT after LLD's case followed shortly by the switch back to LLD, just look at it, seriously, please).

I'm still considering things too. I don't want to discount TH as a possibility per se (trying to theorycraft with his role as seen to figure out if some sort of limited version would produce his approach to the power as viable, really, or wondering about it as a gambit, given the pressure he was under Day 1).

[Plum]

Bring it on, big boy.

[Plum]

If you read, I gave the impression that I changed my mind about UT during Day 2 based on what Cerulean said to me. This was intentionally inaccurate; other information prompted the shift. I later indicated that the information might not have been as strong as I originally believed, which was an accurate statement (the information remains potentially relevant, however). As it stands I do want to reread UT to assess how much bussing and what sort would have needed to go into the Venmar stuff. Right now I think Reck's more likely scum than UT. NS is I think less likely to be scum than you/Reck/TH but ruling him out completely at this point is not what I'm doing.

Zdenek Cerulean Nero Cain solid Townreads. I don't particularly feel like explaining any of that and I don't feel I have to.

Yes, Reck was on the wrong side of a bunch of wagons. Now

look at his play

, look at what he

does

and what

results

if you happen to be Town, FA. If not, I don't see why you'd much bother, etc.

[Plum]

I'm no longer V/LA

[Plum]

For the reasons I outlined before that post. I thought FA was being somewhat obtuse when they acknowledged my point about the wagons you were on but responded along the lines of 'I haven't figured out what that signifies yet'. Trying to nudge them to see that I had in fact offered some interpretation of the context intended to show what and why I think it signifies, and that what I pointed out about your play on some of those wagons wasn't just to be ignored.

[Plum]

I'm not trying to paint you as a diabolical, Mastin-like figure of calculated scumhood - I meant that a lot of your contributions seemed very loose and casual, but seemed likely to me to have been in service to a scum agenda/scum benefit. E.g. I'm sure your reaction to LLD's UT case was 'reactionary' - I just think it looks scummy and to scum benefit despite its superficial casualness.

[Plum]

My apologies.

Reck went from basically not mentioning LLD the entire game (once he randomly mentions her along with Sixty as 'better lynches' than whomever, but that's almost all of it), to voting her (after Zdenek did, which came after Reck's first post of the Day). He basically lets the game move along with this until LLD's big case on UT, which involves some interactions with Reck LLD paints as scummy-manipulative. Suddenly and casually, Reck switches to UT, then switches back swiftly, calling out LLD for 'effortposting' he finds scummy (I'm still side-eyeing everyone else Day 3 too invested in the line of reasoning that LLD putting in a lot of effort to contribute and/or avoid a lynch was a major scumtell. I'm seeing TH).

There was clearly no investment by Reck in the notion of UT manipulating him. When UT argues that LLD's case is meaningless, Reck respond with 'u manipulated me tho', which doesn't move or encourage movement either in the direction of pressuring/investigating/lynching UT

or

towards questioning LLD's methods and motives. It's not there doing anything. Potentially it serves the cause of Reck being able to flip, but more importantly it serves the Mist, it serves Reck looking casual/not caring too much . . . even if people were to have swept off in favor of voting UT shortly after LLD's case, Reck serves the confusion, milling about, and the lynch of someone other than Venmar.

Ugh, this is hard to explain. I hate being the explainy sort. I have converted over to chamber's way, but I'm a sinner. Whatever. I commented on it at the time; it looked weird.

[Plum]

Hey

[Plum]

Pro prod dodge. My keyboard was having issues so I'm limited to mobile for the moment, semi-LA. More soon I hope.

[Plum]

Proper post to follow after the Sabbath.

[Plum]

Real post soon when I can use my husband's computer. Not currently impressed by FA. Cases are scummy. That's a generalization, sure. But this is the scummy kind of case, the sort that gives rise to the generalized sentiment.

[Plum]

If you are town, show me where I am wrong. And please do better than "cases are scummy."

It's not like I haven't said that I believe that cases are scummy this game, in reference to case-type arguments I myself was attempting to make. Sometimes I say it tongue-in-cheek, but there's plenty of truth in it - there are prevalent and accepted types of casemaking that are, in fact, scummy. If I wasn't clear enough before, I found yours to be of that category.

Regardless. You've succeeded in highlighting the fact that at the beginning of the game I found it hard to get or sort through reads on a number of players, or that I sometimes mentioned players without coming to a conclusive read, and a couple of related bits and pieces. You've certainly implied that somehow this is all scummy. You have shown no inclination to analyze whether it actually

is

scummy. I won't show you you're wrong about my expressed unsurety about my reads, or unsurety as to whether to trust my instinctive reads on the players in question. I can certainly clarify some of my statements, and I will, because regardless of alignment I just don't not do that. It's a sickness.

But in return, please, describe the presumed scum motivation or scum gain I would have been trying for by whatever you've objected to (or, unless you think I have no skill whatever at fabricating cases and stances with these and this number of players in such a game as this and that therefore I as scum would have no other option than the hedging and so forth that you identify here, etc.).

I think you are saying that Tim Howard is too bad to be scum but maybe he is? Your next sentence is a valid point. Yet, it is a point that has already been hashed out before. You offer no new opinions or insights.

I was sort of saying the equivalent. Scum sometimes choose bad tactics or strategies, or sometimes what seems like a poor tactic might be viable given information Town doesn't anticipate - it's frustrating when you see someone playing in a way that seems scummy or off in some way but doesn't seem like it would benefit their alignment if they were scum. I figured I'd express my thought process there, at least. And yes, sometimes I repeat or note things that have been hashed out before. Giving an understanding where I stand or my thought process on an issue, even if it mirrors someone else's position, can be valuable.

You hedge on Katsuki here again offering nothing substantial and not committing to any position on him. You talk about his wagon not engaging him. I don't understand what the relevance of it in relation to alignment.

If I thought the reasons for the Katsuki wagon had merit, I would have said so. If I thought it was completely baseless and contrived, I'd have said so. Saying I 'only partly got it' would indicate that I didn't think particularly much of the reasons. At the time I found Katsuki unreadable, and had no confidence distinguishing between deliberate unreadability or playstyle/how Katsuki expressed himself given the playerlist. I did not have a scumread on Katsuki. The wagon, at least, seemed more interesting - there was an aspect to it that was atypical and worth notice.

You again hedge your read on CDB. If you wanted to see what CDB had done so far, it isn't very difficult to check his ISO. Your comments about his Shadoweh push are again ambiguous. Is it a good thing that it is mild or persistent?

Who says I didn't check his ISO? My point was about what I remembered him doing, what impact he had on the game, &c. I

did

skim his ISO around that point, just to be certain I hadn't forgotten anything somehow, which is where I note what he actually did do - a push/pressure on Shadoweh (which didn't show very very strong conviction per se but was consistent and persistent) and a comment about the gamestate that in context put his level and type of contributions in new light. I showed my thought process, you see. In the end I'm willing to wait on CDB for future contributions, and read him as worthy of me withholding my mistrust for the time being.

This is vague, ambiguous, and arbitrary. I have no clue why you voted Nobody Special at this point.

So what? If I didn't phrase it such that you had a full understanding you weren't meant to have a full understanding.

This feels like an incredibly fluffly way to say "sorry for being inactive." Why all the fluff? (Note to self to check up on meta for this)

Why not? I did that while identifying a problem that I suspected was going to crop up: there were a number of people who had done little in the early game and were less engaged/mixed into the game and therefore harder to read (and perhaps harder to integrate). More than one person besides myself cited a gamestate that wasn't flowing well for them as the Day wore on, which I believe was related to that. And yes, why don't you get on that? I don't want to spoil too much, but bursts of verbosity are fairly typical from me, regardless of alignment.

This also seems really vague. I could go and check the votecount in Post 501 and I'd say you trust {Shadoweh, Zdenek, Untrod Tripod, Nobody Special, Katsuki} who were all on Tim Howard. And then you vote NS anyway for reasons that are unclear.

Key word there was 'average'. Also I believe I meant the height of the TH wagon, so throw in Cerulean there as well. I trusted Cerulean, Zdenek, and (though

As for the post you hate, you have my sympathy. Hatred can be bad for the digestion, I know. I found NS' initial posting scummy, of its own merits, but suspected, rightly, that most players, Day 1, would generally reject my reasons as things par for the course for NS, just baseline playstyle stuff (while I felt that there was a reasonably good chance that was not the case even so, and felt that wrong or right pursuing it might well yield useful contributions). I also felt like I wasn't well integrated in the game in general. I desired to rectify this by attempting a less common approach to an engagement with NS.

[Plum]

For heaven's sake I was MID-SENTENCE thanks a lot husband's computer's stupid keyboard that at least has a working t and y and backspace key and so forth

be back with that paragraph I was working on no ended midsentence

[Plum]

This also seems really vague. I could go and check the votecount in Post 501 and I'd say you trust {Shadoweh, Zdenek, Untrod Tripod, Nobody Special, Katsuki} who were all on Tim Howard. And then you vote NS anyway for reasons that are unclear.

Key word there was 'average'. Also 'tentatively'. It also had to do with the fact that I think I saw more merit and therefore more average sincerity in the TH wagon than the Katsuki wagon (mediocre, not engaging the target) and Shdoweh (trusted Shadoweh for reasons I chose not to discuss in the thread at that time).

[Plum]

Plum, besides me, who are your scumreads? Townreads? Thoughts on them?

I think the correct answer to my other post was 'what case?' by the by.

Nero and Cerulean are Town. I'm pretty confident there. UT I'm unsure about but am leaning towards giving him the benefit of the doubt, currently. You, well, I need to do a more thorough reread to square a few things. Buuuuut too many of your reads have been pretty real. If anyone I'm mulling over is in because of paranoia, it would appear to be you.

Reck has been on the wrong side of wagon after wagon, he's done things I found off and seemed to work to the benefit of scum. The couple of niggles include . . . the fact that he told me to leave off because he wasn't scum? If he's scum, props to him for saying things that get in my head. NS also getting . . . I don't know. I'm less and less willing to give him a pass on things simply for his behavior at the end of the kanye lynch, to be honest (that Day he called Nero 'almost certainly Town' - if he were scum with kanye he

could

have tried to vote Nero at the point he came in, but in the long run it might have hurt. He voted at T-17 minutes with 6 votes on kanye and 7 on Nero, 8 to lynch. I don't think a snap decision to stick with your strongly stated positions is out of the question for a kanye buddy per se. Could he have sold a Nero vote? I can't rule out him not ruling it out, but).

I'd be very very surprised if neither Reck nor NS were scum. I'd be pretty surprised if there weren't both the two remaining in {you (FA)/Reck/NS/UT}.

Also, it irritates me that scum is keeping me alive. I WILL NOT BE YOUR WHIPPING BOY

??? Are you implying you've been some sort of popular target used by the scum as a distraction?

[Plum]

N4: "Hot or Not" @ Nero Cain
N5: I tried to do Nero Cain again and was informed that I can only use that ability when there are more than 9 players alive, and by the time I submitted it was too late to use a message

Why have you not been using your stargazing ability?

bc why would i

Two things I'm thinking about:

1. Venmar made some public responses to the Grindr thing, Nero didn't. Can we confirm the mechanic here? It seems like the mechanic is Night and private, which begs the question why Venmar chose to reference it publicly? I want to think about this.

2. Are they mutually exclusive active abilities? What message would you have sent last Night had you had the time?

Do we have a pattern here for claiming or would FA I guess like to popcorn or . . . ?

[Plum]

Still apologetic, still laptop-less, still can't really deal with mobile posting.

First, claim: I'm a Vi fangirl, but also in this game. I shared a quicktopic with Shadoweh, my Ty, with talk any time (woof). I have a one-use hawt new battery mechanic ability that allows me to extend or shorten deadline by 48 hours to a minimum of 48 remaining until the modified deadline hits. I have not used it (though I strongly considered it - extending deadline, to be specific - a couple of times and discussed it with Shadoweh). I also have a two-shot ability that allows me to change the thread's subtitle (so I could replace "more like DeadingGoofball" with some phrase of my choice). I have

also

not used this ability, though, again, I strongly considered it at least once in consultation with Shadoweh (whom I trusted, for the most part, since practically the beginning of the game due to her behavior in our quicktopic). That's all my abilities and their uses. Any further information is withheld for the moment.

1. I asked about that as well and was told that if they pick "Hot", it isn't public... whereas if it's "Not", it is. That part wasn't in my role PM so I'm guessing Nero chose "Hot" and couldn't vote me?

Wasn't in your Role PM? Nero, can you tell us what you received in re Reck's ability?

SleepyKrew, I am not sure I buy your commuter claim especially since Nero Cain claimed bulletproof. That would make two essentially bulletproof roles that the scum can't kill because they can't kill a commuter either.

I'm wary of outguessing the Mod, especially with less-than-full information, but. SK, please describe how your ability works in greater detail. I am not specifically talking about how many shots you have.

Reck's frustration with the meta-focus and whatever seems genuine but not indicative of alignment. Expressing it, tactically,

might

be indicative of alignment, but if it is I can't parse it as a tactic Reck would shy away from as scum.

I hate myself for leaning voting SK over Reck at this point (hate myself for it because Reck has had the multiple mediocre wagon placements while not being proactive as he described while NS-SK and the kanye wagon . . . ugh. Just Ugh). But, preview edit - I need to think this through briefly. Gotta run.

[Plum]

Short answer - I thought potentially it could be useful for posting any useful information that shadoweh or I came into anonymously, but it didn't work out quite that way. Outside of that I thought it had minimal use so I didn't feel there was a point using a shot frivolously in case something useful did come up. I can demonstrate it if anyone likes, though.

[Plum]

Real post shortly when it doesn't have to be mobile.

[Plum]

First off, with everyone claimed, I'm going to reread my qt with Shadoweh and relay everything of value.

Ahhh, apparently I'd forgotten a little, but my early NS vote was also what I thought at the time was the best vote to mine on Shadoweh's wagon, Shadoweh being someone I already had a strong mostly unstated Townread on because of qt behavior etc. - the wagon such as it was was {ChannelDelibird, chamber, Cerulean, Sixty, Nobody Special} and I'd really love to reread it again because part of me thinks it's more likely that one scum took a position on it than none (to the smart alecks expressing wariness about all my gamestate moaning early in the game, add Shadoweh to the list of people expressing basically the same issue at the time - and yes, I can go in and do a paraphrasing if you like).

Oh, by the by, Shadoweh noted fairly early that UT was burying himself in a select orifice of Reck's and found it scummy

Amusingly and amazingly enough, the two times Shdaoweh encouraged me to use my thread subtitle power involved a suggestion of using it to call UT conf scum (this was around the start of Day 2 when Shadoweh and I were in agreement on UT's scumminess and coordinated in voting him . . . and then later once a suggestion to call UT conf or almost conf Town (there was a reason I didn't do that). Late Day 2 Shadoweh told me she had a result on UT that implied he wasn't scum, said because of that she wouldn't vote him ever and encouraged me to behave likewise, which I did without questioning further at that moment because I trusted her that far. In Post #1805 I back off my strong UT push nominally on the basis of Cerulean's case for him being Town; in reality it was based on Shadoweh's claim of having such a result and I just wanted to avoid having to note or claim anything related to it at the moment despite having to basically 180 on UT (on Day 3 she did in fact apologize to me for putting me in a position where I needed to 'explain' why I didn't want to vote him, though at that time no one had actually asked me about it like that).

During the end of Day 2 - within the hour of deadline, I think - I was online with Shadoweh, discussing whether to use my power, Shsdoweh thinking Nero would be the lynch if I didn't and claiming she'd be happy to see either Nero or kanye hang (though at the time she was voting Nero, of course). If it looked like we'd be stuck with a no-lynch . . . I was waiting and watching but I was prepared to commend the Day into LLD's haiku-off. As it stood it became clear before deadline hit that kanye was getting lynched, he was my preference, there you are.

Day 3 when Shadoweh suggested I use the subtitle ability to tell the thread about her result, she explained her result to me. She said, and I paraphrase: Sometime Day 2 (she later clarified this ability was from a TH card) she copied UT's active ability(ies). Her power gave her a one-shot version of any active powers he had so long as he had any shots left to use, and from UT she obtained a one-shot Doc ability. She said that because it was his only ability and the game not multiball, she believed he was the Town's Doctor. She did not mention anything about a restriction, but it sounds like this was a jeep-flavor specific global restriction specific to UT and applicable to all his active abilities?

I said great, but I am not so super confident that this makes UT Town and now that I went from thinking UT is scum (and, trying to avoid confirmation bias, still susceptible to filtering his posts through the hypothesis of 'UT is scum') to thinking UT is confirmed Town because of Shadoweh's result (so not doing too much to evaluate how scummy his posting might be) to knowing his active ability is Doctor but - basically a frustrating position. Given that I didn't think the result indicated UT was confirmed Town, I discussed it with Shadoweh and didn't end up making that subtitle change.

That all said, she

was

in a qt with chamber, had been since the start of Day 2 (and I knew about it), and her thought process on this one was in collaboration with chamber. They felt that scum with Doctor as only active ability was effectively a goon in a power-heavy presumed 4:14 game, even granted the method of game construction. I thought it was completely plausible that scum had a practically-useless Doc. The more so as the game moved on - I think now we're seeing that in many respects the power level in this game is not particularly high.

Final reads from Shdoweh, from Night 4, again paraphrasing:

Zdenek, Cerulean, Nero Cain Town. She was conflicted about UT and FA. UT she just wanted to clear especially with his behavior towards Venmar, but his swings to TH (who hadn't flipped at that time, of course) seem to have frustrated her. She thought that FA's play regarding the Kats wagon and not voting Venmar when they were competing, while taking shots at Shadoweh wasn't nice; she thought it seemed like they might be trying to have their cake and eat it too - but she thought their reads were stellar and cited a time they said that scum were in {Shadoweh, Plum, Venmar, Katsuki, Nero Cain, NS, Kanye, UT, Reck, Tim Howard} - so the other 7 were 7/7 Town and this would leave 2/5 scum in {Plum, NS, UT, Reck, Tim Howard}. She asked if I felt this was reason enough not to fight FA. As things stand, I don't think I do (though not exclusively because of that).

Oh hai FA by the way:

The entire paragraph here says nothing at all other than NS may or may not be easy target.

It says that I'm cognizant of the fact that he's perceived as an easy target. I was frustrated with the way the game was being (as I've noted ad nauseum) and being too paralyzed by whether or not he'd be perceived as an easy target was something I recognized would not help me in my quest to deal with that productively.

This is really vague. I at least like that you made a direct accusation i.e. NS blending in but then use really hedgy and flowery language to describe NS's votes.

Yeah, because when I discuss something like opportunism as a scumtell I dig into the meat of the matter - what opportunity is a player seeing in a wagon/target/whatever, and why is that opportunity and taking advantage of that likely to be scum-motivated. Sometimes that's hard to pin down or express definitively but I do what I can. Just saying 'NS jumped on a wagon' is not something useful for me to note or express in and of itself. Taking advantage of, say, the Shadoweh wagon by jumping on when it was popular and letting it and his vote stagnate might indicate that it was a place to put his vote that wouldn't attract attention actively (by making a vote no one else would make) or passively (e.g. when someone stays 'Not Voting' for a long time Day 1, which NS didn't) but wasn't really pursuing as a means of scumhunting and pressuring.

Why is mere interaction with the wagon he started point to him being town?

It seemed sincere in a game where I often lacked a read on whether people were doing things like scumhunting and wagoning sincerely. I think I might have recognized what he later would elaborate on about his frustrations with the gamestate, because I was struggling with it too. In many respects the same thing holds true with chamber. Shdoweh also thought chamber seemed Town even that early in the game, which influenced my read there (because I was collaborating with her in the qt, found her Townish, and because her reasoning on the matter seemed fine). As early as April 13th, I told her in the thread that chamber was someone I just generally felt comfortable following a lead from and seeing where I could move from there, but that that held true pretty much independent of alignment that early in the game - and she told me she thought he sounded Town to her and completely understood his Venmar vote. On the 14th she also had him in her qt Townlist. She was frustrated when he voted her, and on the 17th it drove her to read his scum hydra ISO in the Touhou game (I'm not familiar with it), which made her even more convinced he was Town. All this impacted how I was reading him (and a lot of it is probably well lumped under 'other Townish signals').

What I hate about this post is that there is no conviction and no real scumhunting drive behind Plum's posting. It feels like too much surface level analysis that is meant to look good but doesn't feel as if Plum thought she actually caught scum that she was pushing.

I WAS FREAKING NOT CONFIDENT IN THE GAME AS A WHOLE AND WAS TRYING TO DEAL WITH THAT AS BEST I COULD. For me dealing did seem to involve acknowledging it frequently. The start of the game was very unusually frustrating in this regard. I was not confident that I 'caught the scum I was pushing' - I felt like I had a lead that I thought was worth pursuing in a game where I was confident about very little, and that I was going to push my lead despite nagging fears that this wasn't worth more confidence than much else I had in the game.

Most of her scumposts are long, quote-striped walls and feel less spontaneous than her shorter posts. This is true in all four of the scumgames I linked above.

1. Did you read POWERFUL WIZARDS?
2. Coming in with so many pages full Day 1, general differences in availability (each period of V/LA probably makes things more likely to go long and quote-stripey and affords less short-and-spontaneous stuff) and possibly stress patterns, and the gamestate stuff I know I keep harping on all probably contributed to post stuff. I generally think your focus on meta is not serving you well here, but well. So it goes. Like now. Huge wall. Lots of stuff to say, hasn't been much time available to me since I last posted especially because my laptop is still not available. Aaaaanyway, enough whining from me.

I need to reread UT. I'm really leaning voting SK now. I'm paranoid that I'm finding Reck sincere for bad reasons, but for now some of it does seem sincere. I'll hopefully be doing final agonizing soon enough. Am happy to use the deadline extension tomorrow if necessary or desirable.

[Plum]

And Shadoweh did ask me at one point whether, if I was too stressed to play as I'd like (due to outside factors) whether I shouldn't replace out (because Night 1 I didn't post in the qt because I was busy, tired, and stressed, which was not best play, especially because discussing use of Shadoweh's fairly weak ability slipped my mind) - I said I felt bad about it but I'd do my best to avoid replacing out especially of a uPick game (and I meant, also, do my best to play well). So I'm sorry etc., especially if any of that is impacting my meta-related read to the players using more or less meta, but. Yeah. It's something I've thought about already.

[Plum]

Actually, Plum if you get on before the deadline, could you extend it please? I won't unvote because I doubt I'll wake up by then and I want someone to be able to hammer in case you are not here but if you are, then go on and extend it. Even if we don't use the full 48 hours, I'm not ready to lynch just yet.

You got it. PM has been sent to the Mod.

[Plum]

I got a Town role PM, don't know about you (but honestly I suspect not).

Alternatively, if you can't be arsed to ask a specific question I can't imagine what sort of useful answer you're expecting here. Maybe consider reading the game and getting back to me.

[Plum]

Maybe it'll do something for the other two, but you guys fighting is not likely to convince me that one of you is Town.

[Plum]

You and UT are both the last scum, very likely. If you didn't realize I thought that, you haven't been paying attention (or it's deliberate. Whatever).

[Plum]

SK, I've said since yesterday that I was pretty sure Nero and Cerulean were Town and that I thought the last two scum were in the four other players. Two of those are now dead flipped Town. I haven't indicated much doubt or that I changed my mind, so you should at least have had a starting assumption. Maybe you really haven't been paying attention. Doesn't matter too much, I guess.

[Plum]

Yeah, I just love voting quickly in five-player LYLO (or so we presume it is with good reason). Even when I'm reasonably confident in two other Townies, I see no reason to rush things quite that much.

[Plum]

This ... is not particularly convincing.

[Plum]

I think I'll wait around for players other than you two. Like I said, this whole song and dance isn't particularly convincing.

[Plum]

Yup, super threatened, no question.

[Plum]

Shadoweh got a result on UT's active abilities and said it was Doctor, so.