Organic Chemistry [GAME OVER]

[Wickedestjr]

Yes Im totally sure that Marquis going about his general schtick of posting the words squack and quack over and over in this game has special relevance to this game

despite it just being his thing.

try again?

Where/when has he done this before?

Titus and Guilty Gunsmith looks like town vs town, but post 85 is bad. Leaning towards ZZZX town too.

Not sure what to think of Doduo yet. I'm not familiar with the heads. I need some time to think about that slot / see what more they have to say.

Vote: Lying Cat

[Wickedestjr]

The bit about what would scum fake...Ok? So do you honeslty believe Antihero sent them a PM...that says "you must only posts these 2 words: squack and quack, have fun!!". Cause I mean...uh? I just dont see that being the case. I just dont.

And the odds of the one person likely to post those words gets THAT role? I mean, what?

IDGI. I dont know what is going on with their posts. I dont want to know. I dont think that they clearly are not scum-faking it because of the nature of the quacks.

I am inclined to agree with this. But my only evidence for the bold coincidence is the two-headed bird avi. Has Marquis ever used the words 'quack' or 'sqauwk' like this before? Please respond.

Vezok, explain please. Or am I just giving off weird vibes?

i want a clear indication of whether you think they are scum or not, like right this moment!

Leaning scum right now. I do not believe Doduo has a restriction and am inclined to link this act to a scum alignment. If Doduo does have a restriction, then hopefully they can make posts like 103 for the rest of the game.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked: Awful vibes. It looks like you are trying to blend in instead of being in and trying to do stuff.

I just got here - sorry for not causing a ruckus in my first post. And I am not trying to blend in, I am trying to start a new and better bandwagon because I am dissatisfied with the current options. How is voting somebody else blending in? I don't see it.

Lying Cat is blending in and they need more votes.

[Wickedestjr]

I do not think that's what 'blend in' meant in this case. If Vezok had meant that, then he should have said;

@Wicked: Awful vibes. It looks like you are trying to blend in instead of having realistic or disagreeable reads/suspects.

rather than

@Wicked: Awful vibes. It looks like you are trying to blend in instead of being in and trying to do stuff.

The latter implies laziness or lack of interest, but it's semantics and Vezok can explain on his own perhaps.

Regardless of the right definition, I think Lying Cat is a worse offender. They were reasonably active earlier but iirc they did not even give any reads (or at least they were slow to). You can't piss people off less than not posting scum reads at all. I almost forgot that they were here despite their reasonable post count.

[Wickedestjr]

That was @Titus.

[Wickedestjr]

I need to know if you got the snork-tunneling out of your system yet.

I'm feeling good about mollie and you for now.

Z will be easy to read, you can check with your partner for confirmation.

Titus is in the pool for today.

How do you feel about jiffy?

Eighteen posts so far, but this is the only subjective one imo.

They're still on their BipolarChemist vote, who hasn't posted yet.

[Wickedestjr]

I gave reads as soon as I was out of rvs.

I saw two 'good feelings'. And prior to voting me, you were voting somebody who hadn't posted.

One questioned you could've answered yourself with only a few clicks and a maximum of 2 minutes.

I tried looking for myself but the first game I checked didn't match what GG had said. I did try, but found nothing. Sure I could have tried harder, but in a game as fast as this that I had not even caught up in, I thought it would be easier to ask GG himself rather than fall farther behind on my own. Where's the scum motive?

Calling three people town here isn't that bad, but the fact that you said something is bad when you called someone town just opens up a spot on the fence.

The key word here is 'bad'. I don't think the bad post was suspicious, but I thought it was illogical and wasn't well thought out.

Trololol. Trying to convince me lying cat is your biggest scum read when you didn't mention her at all. Only voted. for her.

Uh. What... You think somebody else is my biggest scum read? Why would I vote Lying Cat if I didn't suspect them? I didn't post reasoning right away because I was hoping for some kind of reaction, and got none.

Eighteen posts so far, but this is the only subjective one imo.

They're still on their BipolarChemist vote, who hasn't posted yet.

Yup, anybody still on their RVS vote two hours into the game is obvscum. You got me.

Time is irrelevant. We are on page 6 now. Nice try though.

[Wickedestjr]

I saw two 'good feelings'. And prior to voting me, you were voting somebody who hadn't posted.

Which is obviously a huge scumtell in RVS. Game Solved! Everybody can go home now!

The game felt serious and out-of-rvs to me.

Thaaaat's scummy as fuck. You're setting up a double standard for my posts as compared to everyone else's. Wouldn't it have been easier to avoid attention but just not fucking posting?

Half

the playerlist hasn't posted; that seems like a good way to blend in.

Have you ever heard of the phrase 'active lurking'? That's the reasoning for my vote. Not all scum wishing to blend in choose lurking.

And time is most certainly not irrelevant. You can go fuck yourself with something sharp for even suggesting it. Just because AP and others can spampost and I'm off work today to interact with them does not mean that the other players in the game have any responsibility to keep up with this bullshit. You're suggesting I'm scum effectively because I'm off work today. What's next, you're going to vote someone based on their timezone?

Firstly, this is a game, please treat it as such. If I offended/angered you in some way, then it was unintentional and I apologize. I think time is irrelevant because the amount of posting that can occur in a period of time varies. I think the amount of posting determines how serious the game has become. Six pages is a lot for me, personally.

Or, you're sheeping AP because he's a widely held townread. No matter that you don't share in any of the myriad of reasons he's legitimately voting me, so long as you can make it look good, right?

Honestly, I forgot that he had even voted for you. Not sure why I, as hypothetical scum, would want to sheep the vote that had no reasoning behind it.

Unvote

That reaction looks townish.

[Wickedestjr]

Hate posts like what?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked really does look bad.

Anyone want to give me a TL;DR of what I missed?

VOTE: Wicked

I'm glad you read enough to at least make that determination.

Vote: MTD

What have you missed if not the posts of the most popular vote choice?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, my gut says that Perpetual Nonsense might be scum.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm glad you read enough to at least make that determination.

Vote: MTD

What have you missed if not the posts of the most popular vote choice?

Yeah, I did see you were quite a popular guy, leading me to look into your posts for a bit.
I probably missed quite many other interesting things, though.

Ok, then why do

you

think I look really bad?

[Wickedestjr]

Gg, can you answer my questions regarding marquis? And how likely is it that I would bus both times?

[Wickedestjr]

First question isn't wifom. Second is an attempt to see if gg really believes what he's saying.

[Wickedestjr]

And how likely is it that I would bus both times?[/quote]

[Wickedestjr]

I g2g now, but I will check that game later. Sounds like confirmation that this pr is fake.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up... Page 8;

Also, my gut says that Perpetual Nonsense might be scum.

lol

This feels like a scum reaction. Thank you for showing everyone that my gut does not worry or bother you.

It looks to me like you are being overly defensive and overexplaining things. Also, gut.

Also, I said that You really do look bad, not that you look really bad -.-

+1000 scum points.
1. Over defensiveness and over explaining things are not scum tells. Never were, aren't now, never will be.
2. You claim that you skimmed just enough of the thread to suspect me, the most popular choice, AND your reasoning is entirely unique. That is too coincidental for my liking. I think you wanted to join the bandwagon but provided new reasoning to avoid opportunism accusations. I do not believe that you came to the same conclusion as everyone else but for entirely different reasons.
3. You devoted three posts to explaining how you said I 'really am bad' rather than 'am really bad'. My desire for self defense is no different from your effort re: 179, 182, 186.

@MTD, wifom does not apply to either of those cases. There's no motive for me, as scum (or even as town), to do either of those things.

Spoiler: Lying Cat

You thought my post #11, my first post in the game, that happened roughly 30 minutes after the thread opened, was a serious vote? Nope. Not buying it.

NO!!! I never said/meant anything remotely comparable to that. When I said 'the game felt serious', I was saying the game as a whole (not you specifically) felt out of RVS because

other players

were making serious points.

And you think that you can tell who's active lurking two hours into the game? The backpedaling is furious.

That's not backpedaling. And when two hours = five pages, yes I can. A serious discussion was occurring, and that's all you need for active lurking.

That might hold some water if there weren't so many players who have not yet posted.

I don't think five or six missing players should inhibit serious discussion.

AP looks town, you agree with AP trying to look town. It's also a bit of buddying. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

This argument could've been made regardless of who I voted as long as I voted somebody that already had a vote. It's a very weak argument. Should I assume that your vote for me was an attempt to buddy with everybody else that had already voted me? Because there's no difference: AP also expressed suspicion of me prior to your vote.

[Wickedestjr]

I have played with mastin2 at least three times as both alignments and think that this is scum mastin2. I agree that her play here is lacking and that very well could be a scum indication. Maybe she's changed, but I remember her showing significantly more interest in scumhunting as town and even taking on a leadership role at some points. It wouldn't surprise me if she strongly preferred town and lacks interest here because she isn't. Also, I am bothered by her suspicion of me. I believe she has me as her second strongest scum read right now and she said my posting feels like scum. It bothers me that I am her second choice (rather than fourth, fifth, sixth, etc.) because her read lacks the pause that I think would come after getting it wrong before. Last time I played with mastin, this game, she was in the Horrifying Hero hydra and had a very very strong scum read on me starting from the bottom of page 1. I've

never

played with somebody so certain that I was scum, even though I was town and eventually forced to claim cop. Granted it was a few years back, but I have a hard time believing mastin forgot. I don't feel like I'm playing any different from how I played in that game.

Majiffy, why can't Doduo be town AND faking a pr?

P-edit: You're suspicion of me is completely unjustified Vezok. Your 147 is complete junk, and I've explained why. And there's nothing wrong with my last post.

[Wickedestjr]

Also Vezok, don't be blinded by confirmation bias. That's what it feels like here. There's nothing more irritating, as town, than having somebody claim that everything you post is suspicious - that's what you've done and you've provided less-than-mediocre justification (that goes towards anyone that is confident I'm scum, which seems to be everyone).

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up... page 12 comments

Actually...I didn't. That's the same reason I haven't voted you. (Well, aside from the votes already on you.) I had that game specifically in mind when thinking of you, because frankly, it's the only game I remembered.

So instead you have me as your second strongest suspect. I'm not sure what you would expect my town game to look like if you don't think this is it - of the three games (all of which I was town), you town read me in one of them and it was only because I was clearly not partners with your top suspect.
1. Do you think I am more suspicious than I was in the Horrifying Hero game?
and also
2. How is my play different here? Or do you agree that I'm playing the same way?

1. You are right, they aren't definitive scumtells, yet they do add up to a picture of you being scum.
2. I never claim that my reasoning is unique, neither did I claim that I read "just enough" for that, but srsly, the way you put it it makes perfect sense to me (?)
3. Uhm, what? I was just trying to make clear what I said in case you had misread (which I assumed, else it would be an intentional misrep), that doesn't fall under defensive in my book, I keep explaining it because GG attacked me for it and I didn't understand why.

1. Two null tells don't add up to a scum picture, 0 + 0 = 0
2.

I

am the one claiming your reasoning is unique. And you can't argue with that - your only reasons were 'over defensiveness' and 'over explanation' both of which are things that nobody else had/has accused me of in this game. I still think this is an attempt to avoid opportunism accusations.
3. You answered your question in your own post. GG was attacking you. You tried to clarify what you had said because he was attacking you. I see a self-defense motive there. And not one very different from mine.

Well, you saying this gives one motivation, that's what WIFOM does. You are using the argument "I wouldn't do this as scum", which just doesn't work.

I used the "I wouldn't do this as scum" argument, yes, but I also used the "I wouldn't do this as town" argument (in parentheses). There wasn't motivation for me, as either alignment, to commit the two actions in question.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok, I had not much of an idea what the others' reasoning was at that point but w/e

You not fully understanding the others' reasoning strengthens my point against you. And your vote now looks even more opportunistic.

Second one, yes there would be scum motivation, obviously (how would you even suspct them before voting?).

The question was actually: "Why would I vote Lying Cat if I didn't suspect them?" There's no scum motive that I can see - I honestly have no idea why scum would vote somebody that they don't suspect. But Vezok said that he doesn't believe Lying Cat was my top suspect even though I voted him and expressed suspicion of nobody else. Vezok's thought process doesn't make sense to me.

[Wickedestjr]

So instead you have me as your second strongest suspect.

No, I have you as vaguely suspicious but maybe not.

I don't believe you. In post 242 you posted a list of the players that had contributed. Vezok, your strongest town read iirc was at the top of the list. Doduo and ZZZX, who you labeled as definite town reads, were second and third on the list. Scrolling down, Majiffy, your vote at that point, was at the very bottom of the list. Guilty Gunsmith, another slot that you had voted, was third from the bottom. It really looked like you ordered it from most townish at top down to most scummy at bottom. My name was second from the bottom. You literally had me below a player that you had voted, which implies that I was in vote-worthy territory in your mind as well as your second strongest suspect. Either you changed your mind or you're being dishonest, but iirc you didn't mention any reason for changing your mind.

Unvote. Vote: mastin2

2. How is my play different here? Or do you agree that I'm playing the same way?

That'd require me to actually remember the game in detail, and to do serious analysis and to also assume your play wouldn't change over the years and also assume your scumplay would be markably different and as you can see by all of these qualifiers, that kind of judgement is kinda worthless to make.

I'm not gonna force you to analyze and can respect if you don't have the time, but I disagree with your conclusion here. I'm arguing that my play hasn't changed so you shouldn't have to worry about play changing 'over the years'. Also, I've played five or six games since then only one of which I was scum in, ftr.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked is good

He modded perpetual mylo

Hehe thanks. That was a great game

Why is Mastin being a bigger scum read than mtd?

I voted MTD because his vote felt poorly justified and opportunistic. It still does, but I am willing to attribute that to inexperience - MTD has only been here for half a year and I could imagine MTDtown making a mistake like this with that amount of experience. The vote still bothers me, but not as much as mastin's behavior has.

I actually think mastin slipped up. She posted a list of the active players which really really looks like it had an order to it. And I was at the very bottom, second to last in fact. However, remember the game I brought up: mastin as town very strongly accused me of being mafia for the entire game and I was town. So it doesn't make sense for mastin as town to have me as 2nd strongest suspect here when I'm playing the same. But I don't think scum mastin realized that until I brought it up, even though she claims that she had remembered and was considering it. Note that her read gradually changes from 2nd top suspect to neutral-leaningscum-butmaybenotleaningscum after I bring up the game as if she hadn't been considering it before though. She tries to cover this up now by saying I wasn't her 2nd top suspect even though the list she posted yesterday disagrees. Does that make sense?

[Wickedestjr]

MTD, I mean pretend.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah I think I worded that poorly. I'll try again, explaining the situation step by step in the Adrian Monk black and white flashback style...


Here's what happened...

I post and pretty much everyone thinks I'm scum. = (There was no opposition to my bandwagon at this point).

Enter mastin at this time. He posts a list of the players that strongly implies I am his 2nd strongest suspect or at least one of his strongest suspects. He can have me as 2nd strongest with ease because of all the support my bandwagon had. = (I think I've adequately explained how the list has an order to it, let me know otherwise).

I reference a game where I was town, played similarly to here, and was strongly and incorrectly accused by mastintown. = (mastin was 100% certain that I was scum in that game).

mastinscum realizes that he's made a mistake. He should have been hesitant to suspect me, but his list demonstrates no such hesitance.
He realizes that he should have learned from his past experience.

mastinscum now starts to pretend that he remembered/considered the game, because he knows that he should have. = (He acknowledges the other game for the first time here.)

I am asleep / at school not posting or doing anything to change mastin's mind about me.

mastin readjusts his read on me to reflect the lesson he should have learned from the other game. = (He describes his read on me as wishy-washyneutral here, a subtle but noticeable change from his read here or here.)


The evidence that this is what actually happened;
mastin2 now claims that he never had me as his 2nd strongest suspect even though his previous posts suggest otherwise. He knows that, if he was town, he should have been considering the other game and his 2nd strongest suspect read doesn't make sense if he had been considering it. So he acts like he never took that stance in the first place, but I think it's clear that he did.

[Wickedestjr]

plus wicked is moss and he gets points for that.

Of course. Moss is a good guy. And he'd never hurt a fly, let alone... organic compounds.

[Wickedestjr]

There's a part of me that wants to vote you simply so I can have a rumor made about me.

[Wickedestjr]

ok Douglas

Fing about Arsenal is, they always try an' walk it in

[Wickedestjr]

Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm still here. I just need to catch up on the last few pages. Hopefully I can post tomorrow, however, the next few days are very busy for me.

Mod: I will have limited access until Wednesday.

I will try to post as much as I can until then, but it will not be much.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm very sorry everyone. This past week has been twice as hectic as I previously imagined. But now I've got some time on my hands and I'm in the process of catching up. Still here.

[Wickedestjr]

I am currently around page 39/40. About halfway done catching up.

But I explicitly said it was not exactly a readslist. Just a feels-list. Something highly fluid and in change. (Which is an important factor: reads change.) Kinda, "closer you are to the top, less concerned I am; closer you are to the bottom, more concerned I am" list. Which I suppose is vaguely reads, but not a readslist. You're vaguely suspicious but maybe not. Your position reflected that.

You call it a 'feels list' as if your list was too careless for me to scrutinize rather than a well thought out 'reads list'. But we have to draw the line somewhere. Your four definite town reads at that time were the four players at the very top of the list. And three of the four players at the very bottom of the list were players you had or eventually voted pre-outage. So you clearly put

some

thought into this. There'd be no point to a list if you hadn't. I was listed below two of the players you voted - that hardly seems like the slot for a vaguely suspicious read. You were obviously careful to put your strongest town reads at the top, so if I was not really a strong scum read, why were you not careful to put your strongest scum reads in order at the bottom? I have a lot of trouble believing you here.

Fast forwarding to 768, 875, and 876, you again have me listed among the bottom four slots and have proposed a scum team including me. What has changed since you previously read me as 'vaguely suspicious'? Because I had been V/LA...

As scum, pinning down players is my strength. Believe me when I say. If I was scum. I most certainly would have realized that and had taken it into account. Literally every scum game of mine has been won largely because I know players, know how they think, and can set up circumstances to be beneficial to me. (After all, it takes a truly masterful scum player to claim scum in-thread to secure victory. /still ridiculously proud of that game.) And if you look at Vesperia/House Party, you'll see they had a scum hider (well, sorta, in Vesperia). Which I ranted at the mods of those games, linking to...Armor's Tough Guy Mafia, for why it is a ridiculously-OP role that can secure scum victory in any game unless the scum player screws up. And those games, with their respective rants? Are both within REALLY recent memory, so events tied to them (such as my linking to our last game) are also fresh in mind.

I had it in mind. My alignment regardless, you can believe me on that.

Okay, you have convinced me that you didn't forget about the game. But I am not convinced that you actually considered it when reading me.

[Wickedestjr]

@mastin2 - what did you think about post 175?

I think Mastin/Majiffy is t v s or s v s. They didn't quarrel like this in house party ever and they were both town.

How confident were you, at the time of this comment, on a scale of 1 to 10?

@beastcharizard - How confident are you that Doduo and ZZZX are connected? And why do you think that they are connected?

My job isn't to cater to you doduo. You are an inferior pokemon who can't even fly.

This makes beastcharizard OBVTOWN

and by that it makes doduo scum

i'm with jiffy on this one

Why does beastcharizard being obvtown indicate that Doduo is scum?

I think mastin2's VCA is completely ridiculous and confirmation bias. She said that it was probably wrong but her best guess. I have trouble believing that mastin2 actually considers this possibility, however. LC/MTD/Majiffy (my three hypothetical partners) all voted for me, MTD/Majiffy/I have all voted for LC, none of us have voted Majiffy, only I have voted for MTD, and we have all voted or expressed suspicion of mastin2. What kind of scum team plan/dynamic is that? I found an article that you wrote regarding VCA - you clearly said that scum typically divide and it is incredibly rare for scum members to all vote together. This seems to contradict your 'best guess' in this game. What gives?

[Wickedestjr]

wicked can you rehash reasoning for your vote please?

I am currently voting for mastin2 because;
-I believe that mastin2 remembers our last game together, but I do not think his read on me here displays the hesitance that I would expect from him as town. Ever since I voiced my concern his read on me has been inconsistent. I explained the inconsistency in post 1389.
-Meta: I have played with mastin2 three times and this still does not seem like the town mastin2 that I remember.
-mastin2's VCA is ridiculous.

Still catching up... seems like I'm always five pages behind.

[Wickedestjr]

I am finally done catching up. Apologies again for the long vla- last week was a nightmare.

I have work to do now, but I intend to post some responses/thoughts tonight

when there are five more pages to be behind on

. Hopefully I can compensates for my absence.

[Wickedestjr]

*compensate

[Wickedestjr]

I think Mastin/Majiffy is t v s or s v s. They didn't quarrel like this in house party ever and they were both town.

How confident were you, at the time of this comment, on a scale of 1 to 10?

@Wicked, I'm about a 7 out of 10 confidence level on that. Tonal shifts don't happen overnight.

So you are fairly confident that one or two of the two players in question are scum. In a game where ~24% of the players are scum, why are you not pursuing the one (or two) out of two option? That seems like a good chance of catching scum on day 1. Never in a mafia game have I ever called an exchange t v s, so maybe I just misunderstand your perspective here, but I am curious as to why you have not pursued a Majiffy or mastin2 lynch. Reskimming through your iso, it seems that you have done little to strengthen your reads on them.

You have established that you think Majiffy is more likely to be scum than mastin2 and even proposed a scum team of majiffy/vezok/gs/saki earlier. However, your only two votes since taking these stances have been for Vezok and Lying Cat. The Vezok vote had zero support IIRC and the Lying Cat vote was never really explained AFAICS. Almost like you are avoiding voting for Majiffy, but I cannot figure out exactly why. Are you and Majiffy scum together? That might explain the initial t v s or s v s read in question (i.e. if you knew Majiffy was scum and it couldn't be t v t).

[Wickedestjr]

for some reason i just really dislike posts that ask a bunch of analysis-related questions because it feels as if nothing ever comes of those

Sometimes they provide nothing helpful, but they help me often enough that it is worth it. Catching up on 25-30 pages in a week will occasionally result in a post's worth of questions. That's how I play and it works well for me.

and contrast those with 1323, where he forgets that he's not supposed to know i'm town

Can you please explain what you mean by this? I have read post 1323 several times and I don't understand how you're drawing this conclusion.

[Wickedestjr]

I found an article that you wrote regarding VCA - you clearly said that scum typically divide and it is incredibly rare for scum members to all vote together. This seems to contradict your 'best guess' in this game. What gives?

The hell. How/when did you find that? Why?

I was around MS (and not on hiatus) at the time that mastin created the thread years ago. I thought I remembered skimming it around the time it was originally written, but I know that he has written many articles regarding mafia theory so there had to be one on VCA. In addition to that, I think mastin had displayed an interest in VCA in one of our past games together. Fast forward to present, I knew mastin had thoughts on VCA and I was curious if they agreed or contradicted his use of it here. So I searched topics created by mastin2 in the MD sub forum and saw no topic title with VCA in it. So I clicked on the topic, "Mastin's Guide to Scumhunting", general enough that I assumed it would reference VCA. Turns out it did reference VCA and there was a link to one of his old articles, the same article I believe I linked you to.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP;

Speaking of mastin2's VCA, I have been thinking. mastin2's VCA seems like confirmation bias here, which bothers me, but I now realize it is not necessarily a scum tell. mastin2 just seems like the kind of player that, as town, naturally develops her initial 'strong reads' and then tries to base everything off of those reads, rarely turning back. In the game I linked she called me scum and found a way to suspect almost every later post of mine. In another game she correctly pinned a player as scum and correctly assumed I was town solely because of my interactions with said player. Does anyone see what I mean or agree with this? And does anyone think that she does that as scum also? I'll eventually check for myself but mostly everyone here has played with mastin2 IIRC.

[Wickedestjr]

S v s perhaps?

[Wickedestjr]

My reads, ordered from most townish to most suspicious

vezokpiraka - I trust the mason claim.

READ: Town

Perpetual Nonsense - I trust the mason claim.

READ: Town

Guilty Gunsmith - Pretty obvious town from the start. AP reminds me of last time I played with him where he was obvtown. I've liked Snork's posts too.

READ: Town

Marquis - At first I assumed the PR was fake but linked it to a scum alignment. However, at that point, I had assumed Marquis/ns were naturally unhelpful/spammy players. But now that Marquis has abandoned the act, he is actually contributing and seems to care. Now that I have a better view of Marquis as a player, I am inclined to believe that he would not fake a PR as scum. In general, I get town vibes from his posting.

READ: Neutral, leaning town

Wickedestjr - At first he came across as very townish. He was posting reasonable thoughts, asking good questions, and moving his vote in an appropriate manner. However, he kind of disappeared for a week after the outage and, even though he said he was VLA, I have completely lost all faith in him as a town read. I am hoping he can re-inspire my confidence if he is town, but he's also one of those players that includes himself in his reads lists - that annoys me to no end, I might support a policy lynch on him later.

READ: Neutral, slight town lean

(I think I'll have to meta him)

ac1983fan/Bipolarchemist - I have never played with Bipolarchemist, but I agree that his posting initially felt forced. Almost as if he was trying to blend in and trying to appear care-free. It could just be his play style, however. I'll have to check, but that's my current inclination. ac1983fan has replaced Bipolarchemist and has yet to contribute much, however, his initial posts seem fine.

READ: Neutral, slight town lean

pirate mollie - Gut says town. Not sure why, though.

READ: Neutral, slight town lean

PeregrineV - I cannot remember anything he has said off the top of my head. He's one I'll have to reread.

READ: Neutral

Bulbazak -

READ: Completely neutral

, anxiously waiting for his thoughts

Lying Cat -

READ: Neutral

I still think their reaction to my initial vote was townish. Not leaning town yet, though, because they have yet to really contribute anything. In particular, I really do not want to lynch LC today because I don't think they are scum and I don't think their lynch would yield much helpful info, given their lack of stances/interactions - I sure hope we didn't spend 60+ pages discussing on day 1 only to lynch LC, the slot that didn't participate. That would disappoint me. To be fair though, if they are having trouble keeping up with this game in addition to two others, then they should replace out or post soon, deadline's creeping in.

Majiffy - Seems townish for the most part. I intend to take a closer look at his self vote, the reasoning, what provoked it, etc. My read on him may hinge upon the genuineness of the self vote. My only two (minor) issues; a. not sure he believes in all of his reads, b. possible titus/majiffy connection

READ: Neutral

Speedy Saki - Something feels off.

READ: Neutral, slight scum lean

ZZZX - I keep going back and forth on ZZZX. Several of his individual posts display what I believe to be town tells. However, the big picture says he doesn't actually care about scum hunting. He asks/asked many basic questions along the lines of "who do you suspect?" or "why do you suspect/townread _____?". Nothing wrong with the occasional question of this format, however, he has done this a lot and they are very easy questions to ask as scum. A monkey could ask me why I voted mastin or who else I suspect. At one period within the game, it seemed that ZZZX was more interested in the reads of others over his own reads. Overall; I cannot help but think that ZZZX is trying to coast by here.

READ: Neutral, slight scum lean

Titus - Something feels off. The lack of a Majiffy vote is strange.

READ: Neutral, leaning scum

MTD - I explained my MTD stance immediately prior to the crash. He may be inexperienced, but I have had issue with several of his posts.

READ: Neutral, leaning scum

beastcharizard - Something feels off. Aside from Bulbazak and PeregrineV, this may be the only slot yet to give me a single town vibe from any of its posts.

READ: Neutral, leaning scum

mastin2 - Already explained.

READ: Scum

I realize that few of these reads are very concrete/justified. I'll work on it. In the mean time, I think my gut is somewhat on the right track here.

[Wickedestjr]

So you are fairly confident that one or two of the two players in question are scum. In a game where ~24% of the players are scum, why are you not pursuing the one (or two) out of two option? That seems like a good chance of catching scum on day 1. Never in a mafia game have I ever called an exchange t v s, so maybe I just misunderstand your perspective here, but I am curious as to why you have not pursued a Majiffy or mastin2 lynch. Reskimming through your iso, it seems that you have done little to strengthen your reads on them.

You have established that you think Majiffy is more likely to be scum than mastin2 and even proposed a scum team of majiffy/vezok/gs/saki earlier. However, your only two votes since taking these stances have been for Vezok and Lying Cat. The Vezok vote had zero support IIRC and the Lying Cat vote was never really explained AFAICS. Almost like you are avoiding voting for Majiffy, but I cannot figure out exactly why. Are you and Majiffy scum together? That might explain the initial t v s or s v s read in question (i.e. if you knew Majiffy was scum and it couldn't be t v t).

I've said this like 10 times. I'd be voting Majiffy if the support was there. It isn't. I'm voting Lying Cat because my townreads are on it. :nod:

I just reread your entire isolation. Several times you mention voting LC because your town reads voted for him - I knew that already but that is not good reasoning on its own. There is only one instance where you mention your belief that there is not enough support for a Majiffy vote, post 1436. I'll admit that I missed the two sentence explanation in post 1436, but I still have issue with this, for several reasons;

• There are people that town read Majiffy, but it's not like everybody town reads him. ZZZX, mastin2, MTD, PN, and Bulbazak are not town reading him atm (IIRC). Majiffy was also voting for himself earlier.
  
• You are never going to create a bandwagon if you never vote him. How do you know a bandwagon won't form if you never try?
  
• I reread your iso a second time looking for your reasoning as to why you suspect Majiffy and... there really isn't any reasoning. I have no idea why you suspect Majiffy. Unless I missed a post, you have not described this read. You say that you want Majiffy lynched, but you can't act like you've been trying or you know it won't work if you haven't provided reasoning.
  
• Voting somebody just because your town reads are is anti-town and lazy. With five or six days left, there's no need imo. You really haven't displayed much initiative here - that makes it hard for me to town read you.

More later

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah, you have 1 townread and one scum read. This looks designed not to piss anyone off or to take any strong position.

Those reads weren't meant to impress by any means. It's not designed to please, it's designed to display my thoughts. I'm always cautious as town, but on day 1, in a game where I know almost nobody and haven't gotten the chance to really focus on anything (other than one read through of the thread that I just finished), I'm going to be especially hesitant. Would you prefer that I act more confident than I actually am? Please trust me when I say it takes me some time but I will catch scum eventually, like I almost always do.

[Wickedestjr]

Marquis please respond to this;

and contrast those with 1323, where he forgets that he's not supposed to know i'm town

Can you please explain what you mean by this? I have read post 1323 several times and I don't understand how you're drawing this conclusion.

Explain what Marquis pointed out please.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Sorry.

Speedy Saki - Something feels off.

this is the saddest read i have ever seen

It might help if you addressed post 1390. Again, this read is not meant to impress. I just didn't retain much after cramming the last 25-30 pages into two/three days of reading - but I remembered a weird gut vibe.

[Wickedestjr]

Lying Cat, I apologize in advance if you are town and put serious time/effort into this post, but it is COMPLETE GARBAGE. I would appreciate if you did the following;
-read the thread (maybe

then

you would notice that I'm not voting MTD even though your entire post revolves around the assumption that I am)
-meta'd me (maybe

then

you would see how closely my play here mirrors my play in past games)
-considered the fact that I may be town, you may be wrong (*gasp* ), and remove your foolish tunnel vision goggles so you could actually start contributing something valuable for once
-learn to make a case that doesn't

absolutely suck

In other news, Wicked continues to vote MTD despite having mastin as his biggest scumread and MTD as nullscum. He mentions mastin constantly.

ACTUALLY,

I'm currently voting mastin2

.

His last mention of MTD, who he's voting, is to shoot holes in a scumteam with both him and MTD

I NEVER did this.

There are no cases.

So if I have never posted any cases then what do you call this post;

Spoiler: Case

Yeah I think I worded that poorly. I'll try again, explaining the situation step by step in the Adrian Monk black and white flashback style...


Here's what happened...

I post and pretty much everyone thinks I'm scum. = (There was no opposition to my bandwagon at this point).

Enter mastin at this time. He posts a list of the players that strongly implies I am his 2nd strongest suspect or at least one of his strongest suspects. He can have me as 2nd strongest with ease because of all the support my bandwagon had. = (I think I've adequately explained how the list has an order to it, let me know otherwise).

I reference a game where I was town, played similarly to here, and was strongly and incorrectly accused by mastintown. = (mastin was 100% certain that I was scum in that game).

mastinscum realizes that he's made a mistake. He should have been hesitant to suspect me, but his list demonstrates no such hesitance.
He realizes that he should have learned from his past experience.

mastinscum now starts to pretend that he remembered/considered the game, because he knows that he should have. = (He acknowledges the other game for the first time here.)

I am asleep / at school not posting or doing anything to change mastin's mind about me.

mastin readjusts his read on me to reflect the lesson he should have learned from the other game. = (He describes his read on me as wishy-washyneutral here, a subtle but noticeable change from his read here or here.)


The evidence that this is what actually happened;
mastin2 now claims that he never had me as his 2nd strongest suspect even though his previous posts suggest otherwise. He knows that, if he was town, he should have been considering the other game and his 2nd strongest suspect read doesn't make sense if he had been considering it. So he acts like he never took that stance in the first place, but I think it's clear that he did.

There is no attempt to further read MTD.

I questioned MTD when I WAS voting him. But if I WAS still voting him, how would you expect me to further my read on him when he's not even here?

It looks like he's trying to be off wagon when we flip town, but he doesn't know what to do with himself.

Long before your bandwagon formed, I said that your reaction to my page 5/6 vote seemed townish. Why can't that be the reason why I've stayed off your bandwagon? Of all the things I've wrongly been accused of in my mafia playing career, this "staying off the bandwagon to avoid responsibility" style accusation is in the top 3 for most irritating of my common accusations. As town, I have a tendency to be very independent - I decide who's scum on my own and I couldn't care less who the popular choices are.

He's also not doing anything to push through either of his supposed preferred lynches.

There are two blatantly obvious reasons for this;
-The two players MTD and mastin2 are not present at the moment and have not been recently.
-I just finished catching up, just like you. Should I be calling you scum for waiting until now to explain your suspicion of me?

Seriously, why is this not still a wagon?

There never was a good point against me and there isn't now. This is only the second post that attempts to frame me as scum despite half the players suspecting me. I'm playing the same way I always play as town, if people bothered to meta me. I'm almost always town, yet I receive similar accusations every single time.

Spoiler: TL;DR

[Wickedestjr]

I am extremely frustrated/angered by Lying Cat's post 1586.

Can somebody please confirm that I'm not crazy/biased in thinking his post was terrible? Even if I was voting MTD right now, those points would hold no weight.


(More later) but I am admittedly pissed off right now and taking a break from mafia for the rest of the night

[Wickedestjr]

Why are you so interested in having a wagon off Lying Cat?

For several reasons.
1. I think Lying Cat is town.
2. I'm not sure why they have received votes. Because they were absent for so long? Well they're here now and I believe that they will pay more attention to this game. The inactivity does not bother me at all in this case. What

does

bother me is that a slot could be lynched on day 1 without actual justification.
3. We have 65 pages of content to work with. Minus the spam, we have 65 pages of interactions between many of the players. Lying Cat has very few interactions to analyze despite the high page count. I am of the belief that the day 1 lynch should be as informative as possible and a Lying Cat lynch will not provide much information imo. I didn't read 65 pages this month only to lynch the slot that was hardly ever featured - a single day one is enough for me.

I have enough reason for my read right now on day 1. There's something off in the interactions in the pools I have cited. When I'm certain I have scum, you'll hear about it.

PN, what's the problem? There's absolutely no need to be a bully and throw my weight around until I am certain I've got scum. I'm not. I got a nice shiny pool I like.

I have issue with this lack of certainty. There's nothing wrong with lacking confidence, especially on day 1. However, your use of it to justify your behavior here is bothersome. You criticized my reads list for not taking many strong stances, even though it was clear that I lack confidence... just like you do. Why is it that you can be cautious, but I cannot be?

NOT going to call wicked a hypocrite and an asshole for being vla longer than me and posting less and suggesting that i should replace for activity reasons

FTR, there's no hypocrisy. There are several key differences;
-You required significantly more time to catch up.
-You were not caught up at the time I called you out on this.
-You said that you were in other games. This was my only game at the time.
So please don't call me an asshole. If you are inactive for a long time, then heck yeah I'm gonna suggest you replace out - don't act like that's ridiculous.

[Wickedestjr]

It is clear that a mastin2 lynch isn't happening today. I thought we had more time remaining than we actually do - less than four days left!

Unvote. Vote: Titus

[Wickedestjr]

Beastcharizard: Thanks to ZZZX for really getting me to analyze his play further. Beast is not playing like I've seen him play as town. He normally goes with the flow a lot more as town. In this game, his posts are a lot more aggressive and they seem to be carrying an agenda. It's a stark contrast to what I've seen of his town play.

Have you looked at his scum game? If so, how does

it

compare?


Deadline is closing in fast and I think we should get someone's wagon to claiming territory within the next 24 hours. @The people voting somebody that probably will not get much support in the next rl day- vote for somebody that will. These 1 vote bandwagons need to disappear for the rest of today. pirate mollie, you should vote for somebody. Lying Cat is still a bad lynch btw.

[Wickedestjr]

I am several pages behind now, but I can't see any reason why I wouldn't want to

Unvote. Vote: mastin2

(L-2)

Today and yesterday were big days for me, but now I have a lot more time on my hands and should for several weeks. If I am fast enough, I'll try to catch up and make another post in the morning.

[Wickedestjr]

Most-town to least-town is not the same as townreads-here, scumreads-there top-bottom; you can be at the very bottom of my list and still be a townread of mine for instance.

I do not see how that is possible or why you would do that if you are town. I don't think I've ever created a 'feels list' - but if I ever do, I can't imagine I would ever ignore another player when making it.

Fast forwarding to 768, 875, and 876, you again have me listed among the bottom four slots and have proposed a scum team including me. What has changed since you previously read me as 'vaguely suspicious'?

Y'know, the analysis in those posts where I conclude you're likely scum?

You called me 'vaguely suspicious but maybe not' in post 594. Fast forward to post 768 and you now include me in your scum team theory for 'waffling' - that's the only reason you provide for changing your mind. So you changed your mind between posts 594 and 768 it seems. But if you look at my iso, you'll see that this is the only post that I made during that time period;

I'm still here. I just need to catch up on the last few pages. Hopefully I can post tomorrow, however, the next few days are very busy for me. Mod: I will have limited access until Wednesday. I will try to post as much as I can until then, but it will not be much.

It doesn't look like I waffled here - I didn't do anything here. So your waffling accusation must apply to my posts pre-594, but you didn't have any 'waffling' issue in 594. Your read on me is inconsistent and does not seem to resemble a genuine change in a townie's opinion.

Okay, you have convinced me that you didn't forget about the game. But I am not convinced that you actually considered it when reading me.

You cannot separate the two. If I have a game in mind, it influences my read. I wrote a dang MD article on this. (No, seriously. "On Meta And Ongoing Games" is about this.)

Well this is true if you are town. But why would a 'game in mind' influence your read if you are scum? I don't think it would and that's the reason I started questioning you in the first place.

[Wickedestjr]

@Majiffy,

I want you to type it out. None of this well I already did it. Say "I revoke any claim that has the word Ethyl in it."

Second, I haven't been pushing on you with next to no case. I've been saying you and Mastina have gotten into a pissing match where you didn't look town and she did. Both of you are unlikely to be town bc of House Party. I also didn't like your wifom lynch me gambit crap.

Lastly, I haven't been strongly pushing you because I've been trying to fucking solve your alignment.

The longer you engage in a pissing contest based on lies and innuendo, the more likely I am to hink you are scum.

I have issue with the bolded sentence. Firstly, that's not the reason you gave for avoiding voting for Majiffy earlier. Secondly, what have you done to 'solve his alignment', exactly? Maybe I missed something, but I cannot remember any posts where you made an independent effort to strengthen your read on him.

Majiffy you looked town because your play didn't match House Party. You're much more open and communicative there than here.

Majiffy says that he was town in House Party, so we both guess you meant to say he looked like scum. Hmm... that's interesting that you would accidentally say 'he looked town' instead of 'he looked scum'... almost as interesting as Guilty Gunsmith saying there are '4 townies and 13 scummies' instead of '4 scummies and 13 townies'. Oh and I think you voted them for that. Did

you

scum slip

here

?

[Wickedestjr]

With the exception of a fifteen minute organic chem lesson, I know nothing. I am of no help there, but hardly anyone trusts me anyway, so maybe you don't care.

I am still trying to understand this 'Auntie Ethyl' conversation - it does not make much sense to me. Until then, all I have to say is this: all town-aligned players should probably reread their role pms. Given that I received my role pm almost a month ago, I remembered my role but not my role name. I could have been Auntie Ethyl and not known - I had to double check. I'm not suggesting that Auntie Ethyl claim - that doesn't sound like a good idea - but if Titus is town and correct about there being a town-aligned player named Auntie Ethyl, then it could be bad if they didn't realize they were Auntie Ethyl.

[Wickedestjr]

Majiffy you looked town because your play didn't match House Party. You're much more open and communicative there than here.

Majiffy says that he was town in House Party, so we both guess you meant to say he looked like scum. Hmm... that's interesting that you would accidentally say 'he looked town' instead of 'he looked scum'... almost as interesting as Guilty Gunsmith saying there are '4 townies and 13 scummies' instead of '4 scummies and 13 townies'. Oh and I think you voted them for that. Did

you

scum slip

here

?

Majiffy and Mastin were both town in House Party. They acted much differently. Therefore one is scum. Obviously,

it is a typo

to say someone looks town because someone doesn't match their town game. It has no relation to what GG did. The fact you are increases my paranoia of GG given the fact you are most likely scum.

You excuse your mistake as a typo. But wasn't that GG's excuse? I don't think there is any difference between their mistake and your's.

If you had to guess right now, what's the scum team?

And I can't help but think your vote for me is similar to your vote for Lying Cat. Your top suspect was Majiffy and you said Majiffy vs. Mastin was s v t or s v s and ruled out t v t, so why when Mastin flips town do you ignore this previous stance on Majiffy? In general, I don't like how lazy you have been with regard to your Majiffy suspicion. You are pessimistic with regard to its potential even though you've never voted him or explained why town should vote him.

Vote: Titus

I think this is where I want my vote to be, but I have to reread/iso my neutral/slighttownlean reads, because I'm starting to think there are a few scum among them. There are two or more day 1 wagons I'm interested in examining also.

[Wickedestjr]

ETL = Titus?

And how was that a slip?

[Wickedestjr]

My vote on you has absolutely nothing to do with Lying Cat vote. Lying Cat vote was because my townreads were on it and I wanted to get a wagon going.

I didn't say your vote for me was related to your vote for Lying Cat. I said your vote for me was SIMILAR to your vote for Lying Cat. Similar in that I thought you were voting me for having support rather than being your top suspect. But now it seems that I'm your top suspect. When/why did I become your top suspect?

Unvote.

[Wickedestjr]

GG why are you still voting Titus?

[Wickedestjr]

Prod dodge.

*Trying to figure out where my vote should be. Still checking wagons, isos, and meta.*

[Wickedestjr]

I have interest. I've been looking at my neutrals for the several hours now.

What are your thoughts on Bulbazak and PeregrineV? I believe you said that you suspected Bulbazak, but I don't remember seeing reasoning. And I also recall you and other players townreading PeregrineV, but I see nothing that merits a town read and my gut doesn't really agree. I'm having trouble reading those two in particular.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm sorry this took me so long.

I am convinced that Majiffy and Titus are both town after seeing the claimed pr result.

Given that I was probably wrong on two of my day 1 scum reads, mastin2 and Titus, I think my reads need recalibration. I still think Vezok and GG are both town in addition to Majiffy and Titus. That leaves: ac1983fan, Marquis, Lying Cat, ZZZX, MTD, Speedy Saki, pirate mollie, PeregrineV, Bulbazak, and beastcharizard. I checked meta for all of these slots and am now feeling better about the following three slots;

Marquis- Yesterday I was leaning town on Marquis. After checking his meta, I feel even more confident. This looks like town Marquis. Moving Marquis from "neutral leaning town" to "town".

Speedy Saki- I was suspicious of Speedy Saki yesterday, but I have reread and changed my mind. In general, I don't get the impression that they really care too much about receiving town reads. Even the MS/ZZZX exchange looks good for MS. I don't like their bandwagon. I'm moving this read from "neutral leaning scum" to "neutral leaning town".

beastcharizard- I gut read him as scum, but I cannot remember what posts gave me that bad vibe. Instead, I'm starting to think that he's actually pretty fearless/confident in his words and votes. His play here also seems closer to his town game than his scum game. /Moved from "neutral leaning scum" to "neutral leaning town".

That leaves: ac1983fan, Lying Cat, ZZZX, MTD, pirate mollie, PeregrineV, and Bulbazak. <-- I think the scum are among this group of seven. I also examined some of the major D1 bandwagons. My thoughts are spoilered below.

Spoiler: Noteworthy Day 1 Bandwagons FMPOV

Wickedestjr

- 6 (

vezokpiraka, Perpetual Nonsense, Doduo,

Lying Cat,

Majiffy,

MTD)

Lying Cat - 7 (

mastin2,

MTD,

Titus, Marquis,

ac1983fan,

Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka

)

mastin2

- 9 (Lying Cat, MTD,

Marquis, Guilty Gunsmith,

ac1983fan,

Wickedestjr, Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka, Titus

)

Notes- Green = town. Guilty Gunsmith started the mastin2 bandwagon, however, they jumped off and later returned so Lying Cat was on that bandwagon for the longest period of time. So Lying Cat did not start the bandwagon.

The first and third bandwagons were chosen because I know the targets are town. I chose the second bandwagon because it felt unjustified, even if Lying Cat is scum. I have trouble believing that any of these wagons are all town.

Conclusion: There is probably at least one mafia among {ac1983fan, MTD}. In the unlikely case where they are both town, I think there's a pretty good chance that Lying Cat is mafia instead.

Below are my thoughts on my seven non-leaningtown reads.

ac1983fan- He seems to really like voting for suspicious players only if they have support - in general he has taken an interest in bandwagons here. I don't like the strategy (if my top suspect has no support, I try to create support), but it is clear from the meta check that this is a play style habit/tell more than anything else. There is nothing suspicious about his bandwagony behavior. My biggest issue with him is that he was on both the Lying Cat wagon and the mastin2 wagon. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. However, given the fact that I've already town read most of the other players on those wagons, there's a better than average chance that he's one of the scum on those wagons. Alternatively, the thing I like most about ac1983fan is that he town reads me. Earlier he said that I was his strongest town read. Maybe I'm biased, but in a game where virtually everyone finds me suspicious, I have trouble seeing acscum take such a controversial stance with no obvious scum motivation. I also don't understand/see the case for him being scum. ac1983fan does need to explain his Bulbazak read, though. ac1983fan, why did you say that Bulbazak is scum if GG is town?

Lying Cat- I liked their reaction to my initial vote for them. I like how stubborn they were in scum reading me and wanting my lynch to happen. I even got town vibes from the confidence in their crap case on me. Furthermore, I like their reactions to the complaints regarding their inactivity (even though I support those complaints). I want to town read them, but I am bothered by the fact that they have contributed very little and have consistently been v/la or catching up from said v/las. I think their reactions and confidence is genuine, but the lack of participation is too much of an issue for me to have a "leaning town" read. They haven't displayed interest in scum hunting.

ZZZX- Again, I keep going back and forth. There are a bunch of little things that give me town vibes. Examples include his reactions to MS (especially post 319) and his recent reaction to GG's complaint. My only issue is that it feels like he's been coasting. He's been reasonably active but something feels lacking. He's asking lots of questions but for whatever reason I don't see the scum hunting interest in his posts. ZZZX, who are your top four suspects?

MTD- He seems to be playing without regard for how others perceive him. That's good. In post 1237 he explains that the reason mollie called him town wasn't a good reason. This seems like a town tell, but I can't help but worry that he's scum, aware of the fact that there's no scum motivation for undermining mollie. This is also something that could have been set up for him to try to towntell. On an unrelated note, I have issue with the fact that he seems to be coasting right now. In general his posting seems to revolve around answering questions and commenting on only the recent behavior (recent, at the time of his posts).

pirate mollie- After checking her meta, I can agree that this doesn't look like town mollie. In post 2157 where she wishes she could replace out because she had given up, she blames her defeatist attitude on a lack of town cohesion. I have a few issues with this post; a.) she claims to have given up even though I can't recall her making a noticeable effort to begin with, b.) I don't think we lack town cohesion - at the time of her 'giving up' post, I think there were two reasonably sized bandwagons. c.) It is odd that she would criticize for the lack of town cohesion when she has been 'not voting' for a large percentage of the game and her reads have been fairly independent (e.g. mtd and gg reads). Speaking of mollie's reads, I remember Majiffy said that she was opposed to bussing. After checking a few of her scum games, I believe this to be true. mollie has voted for Titus, GG, and Marquis - I don't think she has ever voted for mafia this game. The Marquis vote is especially odd because five posts earlier (4 hours earlier) she said her top three was ZZZX, LC, and I. BTW, that seems like a very easy trio to suspect and I don't believe that's her top three.

PeregrineV- He hasn't done anything particularly suspicious, but he also hasn't done anything noticeably townish either. Maybe it's just because I haven't played with him before, but upon checking his meta I didn't see any difference between his town and scum play. Bulbazak mentioned that if he's trying to figure out the game, then he's probably town. But IIRC, he was doing this even in his scum games. That's not a satisfying meta tell. I wouldn't be surprised if PeregrineV was mafia just because of POE.

Bulbazak- This is another slot where I didn't notice any distinction between town/scum play. His play here seems fine, but he's competent enough that I think he could fake anything he has done/said here. He could be scum trying to appear pro-town. I get a weird vibe from him, but nothing to explain said vibe.

I wouldn't be opposed to voting any of these seven at deadline. Of these seven, {Lying Cat, ZZZX, MTD} look the best. So my top four would probably be {ac1983fan, pirate mollie, PeregrineV, Bulbazak}, but three of those four are POE reads and I'm not comfortable town reading any of {Lying Cat, ZZZX, MTD}.

ac1983fan is at L-2 right now. There's a good chance that he is mafia and I'm not opposed to lynching him. However, I don't want to put him at L-1 right now and I'm significantly more suspicious of mollie.

Vote: pirate mollie

[Wickedestjr]

Post coming soon

[Wickedestjr]

Marquis- maybe you could share the details of the meta search & compare.

His recent scum games: this and this
His recent town games: this and this
In the town games it seems like he tries harder, demonstrates a genuine interest, and is more open with his thoughts. Posts 1479-80 seem to resemble his town play.

With that said, instead of comparing how I play, you could read what I say.

I read what you say, but haven't noticed anything particularly telling.

Bulba-avoiding an active read of his posts. It gives me the urge to nitpick then fight with him then vote him.

This doesn't look good, especially given my proposition that you and Bulbazak are potential scum partners. Why not try to read him without fighting with him? And why is nitpicking, fighting, or voting him a bad thing?

[Wickedestjr]

ac1983fan

, why did you say that Bulbazak is scum if GG is town?

ZZZX

, who are your top four suspects?

Asked earlier but it was in my last big post so I can understand you missing it.

[Wickedestjr]

ac's claim, at this point, doesn't change his likelihood of being town or scum imo. But I agree with the unvotes.

Unvote. Vote: MTD

Doesn't seem like there's interest in a mollie bandwagon/lynch right now, even though people suspect her and I think I made a good case. This is a good alternative, though.

[Wickedestjr]

ZZZX

, you think Titus is mafia even given Majiffy's result?

[Wickedestjr]

Wait nvm just checked my pms.

I have information that implies titus is unlikely mafia.

VOTE: ac130

You asked him how certain he was and I believe he said that he was 95% certain that Titus was town.

[Wickedestjr]

Lets get a Bulbazak lynch going.

I'm interested. But who else is?

[Wickedestjr]

MTD, what's your read on Bulbazak?

Unvote. Vote: Bulbazak

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I will have limited access July 1st through July 16th.

I will still be able to follow the thread and post, but I will be on vacation visiting family. So there will be days during which I am preoccupied. Also, I may have trouble getting to a computer; I could be limited to phone posting at times. Nevertheless, I'll try to contribute as much as I can during the next two weeks.

BTW, I'm sorry for not posting today - didn't realize how much work I had to do outside of trip preparation.

[Wickedestjr]

I was leaning towards voting MTD, but Saki's wagon looks like all town whereas MTD's wagon has several of my top suspects on it. There could be bussing going on, but it at least warrants reconsideration of the Saki slot. I'll take a closer look tomorrow and move my vote to one of those wagons ASAP.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm a few pages behind, but won't be for long.

A few people are calling ac1983fan town for his backup inventor abilities, but I still don't see why the claim makes him town. I will agree that he is a bad lynch at this point, but there's nothing about his claim that makes him more likely to be town, afaics.

I think the Bulbazak wagon is scum

led

hopping on opportunity

.

But i think bulbazak can take care of himself to diffuse the wagon.

Saki, what opportunity is that?

wicked: do you like to play town or scum?

I like to play both and I don't have a preference. The desire to figure out who scum are can easily maintain my interest as town, moreso than my desire to pretend that I'm innocent. However, it is frustratingly rare for me to receive a scum role pm, so I really enjoy playing as mafia also (plus I play well more often and I live longer more often as mafia). The satisfaction of getting it right or the excitement of getting it completely wrong are both equal to the pleasure in fooling the uninformed. If you look at my wiki you'll see that my favorite role is SK, because I think it combines aspects of town and scum play.

[Wickedestjr]

Nvm Saki, you don't have to answer that. I thought you scum read Bulbazak.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm caught up. And Saki's explanation seems fine. I don't understand that bandwagon.

And I agree that Saki's page 98 posting was townish. My town read on that slot is stronger at this point.

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Mtd

. (L-2)

[Wickedestjr]

Still like the MTD bandwagon - he needs to claim asap. He's at L-1.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm trying this again-

Vote: mollie

. Is anyone interested? I brought up some good points in my 2204, pg 89.

I'm not really interested in lynching Marquis or Saki. I still think they're town.

I have some thinking to do. In particular, I have to wrap my head around the night action results and possibilities. My reads may also require more recalibration, but I'm not sure yet. More on that later.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm still vla and these last few days have been the busiest of my time away. I apologize for my inability to contribute by this point and hope today or tomorrow permits some free time.

[Wickedestjr]

Phone post

Ok I'm caught up and I must say that I'm so glad I thoroughly read the last ten pages. On a more serious note, I apologize for my absence.

Would you be interested in a LC lynch?

Only as a compromise vote. I'd rather lynch mollie, but an LC lynch is way better than a Marquis lynch. I'm surprised that you're asking me this because you seemed interested in a mollie lynch yesterday. Where is your read on her now?


@mollie- you asked majiffy about my meta. The only two people here that I've played with before are AP and ZZZX. Why don't you try meta'ing me yourself?


The bystander effect comment that Marquis made regarding beast also applies to mollie I think. There are several people that think she's scum yet I'm the only person voting her. I'll try to convince people to join me later today.

[Wickedestjr]

Phone post

I'll summarize my suspicion of mollie later, but this post was made recently.

I am getting the too townie to be town vibe (plus his vote on me is opportunistic as fuck after I have said I don't feel plugged into the game) which is how I can nail muffina now. wicked and muffina are not from the same experience group but I am pretty sure muffina learned it from somewhere and it seems like wicked is from that experience group.

1. It is weird that you are worried about me being too townie to be town given that your only other two suspects are Marquis and LC.
2. It is really weird that you call my vote on you opportunistic. A. I'm the only one voting you. B. I'm voting you partially because I don't believe in your detached attitude - is that detached attitude supposed to protect you from every lynch? C. Two of your three suspects are the top two bandwagons right now and I (your third suspect) was also a popular choice at one point.
3. Your experience group comment is weird for the same reason that your too townie to be town comment is. Again I have past games.

[Wickedestjr]

Only as a compromise vote. I'd rather lynch mollie, but an LC lynch is way better than a Marquis lynch. I'm surprised that you're asking me this because you seemed interested in a mollie lynch yesterday. Where is your read on her now?

I haven't read back yet, but why LC over Marquis?

See 2204 and 2285. Marquis's play today has only strengthened my read since I made that post. Eg the bystander comment gave me town vibes.

[Wickedestjr]

Just got home from VLA like an hour or two ago. I have only speed skimmed the thread since I last posted earlier today and I will not read carefully until tomorrow. But I do want to rephrase my reasons for voting mollie.

pirate mollie- After checking her meta, I can agree that this doesn't look like town mollie. In post 2157 where she wishes she could replace out because she had given up, she blames her defeatist attitude on a lack of town cohesion. I have a few issues with this post; a.) she claims to have given up even though I can't recall her making a noticeable effort to begin with, b.) I don't think we lack town cohesion - at the time of her 'giving up' post, I think there were two reasonably sized bandwagons. c.) It is odd that she would criticize for the lack of town cohesion when she has been 'not voting' for a large percentage of the game and her reads have been fairly independent (e.g. mtd and gg reads). Speaking of mollie's reads, I remember Majiffy said that she was opposed to bussing. After checking a few of her scum games, I believe this to be true. mollie has voted for Titus, GG, and Marquis - I don't think she has ever voted for mafia this game. The Marquis vote is especially odd because five posts earlier (4 hours earlier) she said her top three was ZZZX, LC, and I. BTW, that seems like a very easy trio to suspect and I don't believe that's her top three.

Phone post

I'll summarize my suspicion of mollie later, but this post was made recently.

I am getting the too townie to be town vibe (plus his vote on me is opportunistic as fuck after I have said I don't feel plugged into the game) which is how I can nail muffina now. wicked and muffina are not from the same experience group but I am pretty sure muffina learned it from somewhere and it seems like wicked is from that experience group.

1. It is weird that you are worried about me being too townie to be town given that your only other two suspects are Marquis and LC.
2. It is really weird that you call my vote on you opportunistic. A. I'm the only one voting you. B. I'm voting you partially because I don't believe in your detached attitude - is that detached attitude supposed to protect you from every lynch? C. Two of your three suspects are the top two bandwagons right now and I (your third suspect) was also a popular choice at one point.
3. Your experience group comment is weird for the same reason that your too townie to be town comment is. Again I have past games.

*Plus she keeps complaining about my lack of activity during time periods where I say I am VLA even though she has been even more detached from this game.


You guys should vote for her.

I'm down forva wicked wagon. That guy should've been lynched day 1

I don't understand you. Do you think mollie and I are scum together? Because I thought you suspected mollie too. Are you at all interested in lynching her? Given that I've explained my suspicion of her, I'm trying, and given that she's detached, not trying, hasn't explained her suspicion of me. Why in the world would you choose me over her? The only reasoning you ever had for suspecting me was surrounding my early LC vote (even though you've voted LC today). If it's for the general gut feel that I give off, then you need to meta me.

I think I have a good case against mollie. Trust me when I say that I've town read various people with the detached/lazy attitude in past games but I'm not getting the same genuine/town feel from mollie here.

[Wickedestjr]

Lying Cat you should vote mollie too!

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up now. There are two things I don't understand.

1. What's the deal with this whole Auntie Ethyl thing? I didn't see anything relevant in Titus's role pm that Antihero posted.

2. Why did Lying Cat say this;

PeregrineV- If AC000016 is town, town.

[Wickedestjr]

so i just wanna get this straight. you think I am being detached right now? how so? tell me more about my detachment cos I am feeling anything but detached and I think posts indicate it but good job of trying to push a stale when it actually applied? I was detached early in this game after d1 cos I moved to a different city. not sure if you have ever done this with a kid I am just going to guess no. it takes a lot of work and a lot of my time. like I am still unpacking.

I've moved like half a dozen times in my life between states and over seas, I understand how much time and energy it requires.

But yes, I think you are detached. Earlier you said and I quote, "I have already given up on this game there is no fucking cohesion whatsoever and I don't even know where to start in order to make that happen. the only reason I am not replacing out is cos I don't want to put anti through the trouble of finding a replacement." which doesn't sound related to your move. You could have said something along the lines of "I've fallen behind" or "I've already missed so much" but you didn't. Plus, I find that quote disingenuous which leads me to believe that your detached attitude even after your move is fake. Ever since then, it feels like you've coasted. You've certainly flown under the radar and I can't remember any noteworthy arguments or posts that you've made. It also doesn't look like your doing much to strengthen/develop your reads.

what I find funny is that you are pushing this point that I am "detached" even tho there was a solid reason for it even tho I was pretty involved in early game but then I moved and I would describe my play at present time anything but detached while simultaneously bitching about how I am going after you while you have been on v/la.

like I am not voting you I am waiting till you get back from v/la until i go tennis balls to the wall on you

which is more than what you gave me. you started your push on me while I was v/la and moving.

For the entire game I haven't seen anything that indicates genuine interest. I'm not just focusing on the time during which you were vla.

In two posts, you made comments that indicated you weren't even aware of my VLA. In post 1134 you said "where the f*** is wicked" - I was VLA at the time. In post 3037 you said "you know who else fits in this picture? WICKED. who has suddenly disappeared during this shitstorm." - I was VLA at the time. Neither of those comments make sense if you knew I was VLA. So please don't act like you weren't voting me BECAUSE I was VLA.

I have more issue with the fact that your detached-ness feels disingenuous, but if you're not convinced that you've been detached, I'd like to summarize;
-Twice you asked where I was or why I disappeared as if you didn't know I was VLA.
-You have asked Majiffy for my meta, not tried to meta me on your own, and ignored my post where I told you who was familiar with my meta.
-I am one of your top three suspects and you have indicated that you have trouble reading me. However, you have asked me one question this entire game with no followup and that's been the extent of your effort to read me.

[Wickedestjr]

hey wicked!

do you really think I am detached now?

cos it looks like you are pushing something old while trying to repackage it into something new! cos guess what I am anything but detached. if you read the preceding pages you would know this.

Were the preceding pages an effort to make me change my mind?

[Wickedestjr]

PV is town if AC000020 is town, because otherwise scum would have had the protective role that was directed towards AC and the ability to stop someone from acting, meaning they had an excellent chance to try to kill AC000021. If AC000022 is town, scum could not pass up that opportunity, because he's virtually an unkillable townie if we can confirm him. Y'know, with whatever the cop is.

Okay I understand what you're saying here. I'm not comfortable reaching the same conclusion given that there are a few assumptions that have to be made, but I get it now. TY.

[Wickedestjr]

yes. they were specifically designed for that.

however did you figure this out with my posts that were not directly related to you.

OK... bleh

Unvote.

Maybe I'm wrong here.

But I have no idea what you are asking me there...

[Wickedestjr]

@mollie-

The sarcasm was apparent.

Why are you asking Bulbazak that? Do you now think LC's town now?

[Wickedestjr]

Here's where I'm at right now. Mostly posting this for my own use later on when it's not 230 am. I have to move my vote somewhere else, but I need to organize my thoughts somehow.

Town
Me
GG
velociraptor
Marquis
Majiffy
Saki
----------------
beastcharizard
ZZZX
Lying Cat
Bulbazak
PeregrineV
acfan
Scum

IDK;
mollie


Notes-
-I refuse to vote anybody above the line.
-beast hasn't given me the town vibes he gave me yesterday. That town read is gradually fading away. Also, given that MTD flipped town, LC and ac both claim inventor, PeregrineV nearly confirmed Bulbazak, and I might be wrong on mollie, I feel that I need to reconsider one of my leaning town reads; beast is it. He's not my first choice for a lynch today (or my 2nd, 3rd, etc...), but I could live with it if none of the better options got support.
-I don't like assuming that Lying Cat (or any inventors for that matter) is town. Why does scum tracker inventor have to benefit scum for it to be a part of this game? I don't think it necessarily does. But wifom.
-Given that PeregrineV and Bulbazak were both in my top four yesterday (and still are), I am uncomfortable town reading them when one just semi-confirmed the other today.
-There's a very good chance that ac1983fan is mafia. I wouldn't mind lynching him today. I'd also be willing to let him survive today if he's investigated tonight but I'd kinda want to know what the investigation power actually is. We're getting close to lylo and that seems like important information. Just guessing here, but maybe the 95% confidence becomes 75% if ac really is mafia.


I'll vote later.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, I wasn't sure what the count was until now. Unless a better wagon springs up out of nowhere, I'm going to vote for beast or LC. I am focusing on those two today.

[Wickedestjr]

I can hammer. But I'd like to see a claim first.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: beastcharizard

=====[]

[Wickedestjr]

Now I understand GG's "neighborizer claim is scum" comment on page 1.

And bleh. I received GG's invention last night. (Thanks) I chose ac1983fan and the mod said he doesn't have access to a private topic... which really surprised me. By the end of day 3, I was like 85% certain he was scum. Results indicate I'm wrong but I'm still suspicious of him. Marquis is probably right about there being a scum traitor and what role makes most sense as a scum traitor other than backup inventor? (from a setup spec standpoint) It's the most unique town role as well as the most unique scum role.

I have a theory but want to see what else happened with inventions.

I still don't want to lynch Marquis.

[Wickedestjr]

Marquis, if you're town, you think lynching you is the right move one day before LyLo? If you're town, please unvote.

[Wickedestjr]

IIRC, votecounts indicated that LC and ac are maf. I'll check later tonight though.

[Wickedestjr]

Day 1 Bandwagons;
A. Wickedestjr - 6 (

vezokpiraka, Perpetual Nonsense,

Doduo, Lying Cat, Majiffy,

MTD

)

B. Lying Cat - 7 (

mastin2, MTD, Titus,

Marquis, ac1983fan,

Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka

)

C.

mastin2

- 9 (Lying Cat,

MTD,

Marquis,

Guilty Gunsmith,

ac1983fan, Wickedestjr,

Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka, Titus

)


Day 2 Bandwagons;
D. ac1983fan - 6 (Majiffy,

beastcharizard,

Speedy Saki,

vezokpiraka, MTD, Titus

)

E. Speedy Saki - 5 (Marquis,

Titus,

Majiffy,

beastcharizard,

Lying Cat)

F.

MTD

- 8 (PeregrineV,

Guilty Gunsmith,

Bulbazak, ac1983fan,

vezokpiraka, Wickedestjr,

Speedy Saki,

Titus

)


Day 3 Bandwagons;
G. Speedy Saki - 4 (Majiffy, ac1983fan,

beastcharizard,

Marquis)

H. Lying Cat - 5 (Bulbazak, ZZZX, pirate mollie,

Guilty Gunsmith,

ac1983fan)

I. Marquis - 4 (

beastcharizard, vezokpiraka,

Speedy Saki, pirate mollie)

J.

beastcharizard

- 7 (ac1983fan, Lying Cat, Marquis, ZZZX, Bulbazak, Majiffy, Wickedestjr)

[Wickedestjr]

ABC are most telling, imo.
A. Unless my bandwagon was all town, which I have trouble believing, Lying Cat looks bad.
B. Lying Cat and ac1983fan are probably not both town.
C. ac1983fan looks bad here.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: mollie

Thanks

[Wickedestjr]

Vezok I received GG's invention. Thank you for reading the thread.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: ZZZX

(L-1)

[Wickedestjr]

Remaining players after we lynch ZZZX; Marquis, Lying Cat, Majiffy, vezok, Saki, PeregrineV, Bulbazak, Me

Vezok and I are town. I'm still town reading Marquis and Saki. Although I would like to point out that the alternative to 'sensor pr thingy', 'luck', or 'genius scum' wrt the killing is that Saki's scum.

That leaves; Lying Cat, Majiffy, PeregrineV, and Bulbazak. If ZZZX is scum, then I

think

the other two are within that group of four. I need to reread but that's what I currently think.

I was townreading Majiffy, but I'm not confident in that anymore - poe and lack of recent town tells indicate that I might've been wrong. I haven't ISO'd mollie (or anyone for that matter) ever since her scum flip, but, IIRC, Majiffy townread mollie despite being familiar with her play style.

I don't think the successful tracks are evidence that Lying Cat is town, especially not in the case of today's result. The biggest recent evidence that Lying Cat is town is that mollie voted and expressed suspicion of him, but even that's not confirmation for me.

I don't think the ac/Peregrine/invention/jailkeep thing is confirmation that PeregrineV is town either. If Saki is scum, then that negates the 'confirmation' right away. Plus, even with ac's town flip, I'm not comfortable making the assumption that scum really wanted him out and that assumption is the premise behind PeregrineV's 'confirmation'. In general, I'm not comfortable saying PeregrineV is town for his actions because his actions ultimately led to this nearconftown status (there's a hypothetical scum motivation).

If Bulbazak is scum then it's him and PeregrineV or he's a mafia traitor. Bulbazak is a bad lynch right now, but I'm not convinced that he's town yet.

[Wickedestjr]

Let's skim through your iso backwards. Yesterday you called Majiffy and Saki scum. Day 3 in reverse order, you said you were down for a Wicked wagon, voted Marquis, said you wanted to lynch Lying Cat, and said mollie gave a scummy vibe. No reason for Lying Cat, as scum, to think that you would choose ZZZX the night after calling Majiffy/Saki scum and mollie the night after you more recently expressed suspicion of me, Marquis, and LC.

I'm not dumb.

[Wickedestjr]

It is naïve of you to assume LC is town for that reasoning.

[Wickedestjr]

1.

Why would I track someone I said is scummy? They aren't going to perform the kill.

2.

Also seeing that mollie flipped scum pr makes me think all inventors are town.

1. If Lying Cat really is town, you don't have to resort to this logic. There's still no way Lying Cat, as scum, could have predicted that you would have chosen ZZZX of all people. You are the sole confirmed townie and Lying Cat, as scum, doesn't have to justify giving you any inventions - it's easy in that regard plus you even said that you didn't feel good about your reads.
2. This town is pretty strong and there could also be a mafia traitor.

1.

LC is town because, and we've already gone over this, there is 0 reason for scum tracker inventor.

2.

Also, we were mollie's push for literally the entire game, soooo.

3.

Jiffy is almost 100% cleared in our eyes because of APork's obvious in retrospect crumb and Apork not dying fairly immediately after giving Jiffy the investigate.

1. There's no reason for a mod to create a neighborhood between two mafia goons from the same team but I've seen that before. There's no reason for a mod to call a mafia team the 'Red Mafia Team' in a large normal with no other scum team but I've seen that before. There's no reason for a mod to put a Mafia Jailkeeper in a game with no other killing role but I've done that before. I've been over this before, it means nothing. Antihero could have very easily created the setup and selected an inventor at random to be mafia just to avoid getting outguessed by town.
2. IIRC, you've never voted for mollie. If you are town for your mollie push, then I must be obvtown. Where were you day 2 and day 3 when I was trying to get a wagon started?
3. This is terrible logic. Is Majiffy the only player in this game other than you capable of noticing a crumb? I'm not seeing the connection between 'GG gave Majiffy the invention' and 'Majiffy was the only one who spotted a crumb'. Regardless of its obviousness or existence, GG was the most obvtown player in this game yet he survived the first two nights. That indicates to me that scum had a reason for not killing him.

Any questions or flaws in my reasoning?

Bulbazak is not confirmed town. I'm not scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Lol. That zzzx claim.

do you think scum me would post his claim without thinking? these mistakes are because I posted from my memory because I cant allow you to fucking misltynch me

ZZZX, you expect us to believe...
vezok tracked you
AND
you just happen to have a PR
AND
it just happens to be a third investigative role
AND
you just happen to have visited the guy that died last night
AND
you messed up one of your results
AND
you are ok with getting lynched today but you have no final thoughts to help town with. Would you believe ZZZX's claim if you were in our shoes?

You are pretty much confirmed scum. In the very unlikely circumstance that you're town, we learn a lot from your death anyway.

[Wickedestjr]

1. You could have been given a fake claim. In that case, and regardless, your soft claim is meaningless (if you really did soft claim).
2. There are inorganic compounds with carbon. But if your role is true, I seriously doubt Antihero would put more than one inorganic carbon compound in the game. That's why it can be beneficial on the off chance that you're town.
3. Can you explain your other choices?

[Wickedestjr]

PV cleared bulba so bulba is confirmed town

[Wickedestjr]

You are the sole confirmed townie and Lying Cat, as scum, doesn't have to justify giving you any inventions - it's easy in that regard plus you even said that you didn't feel good about your reads.

This was not true yesterday.

You're trying to justify your opinion rather than come to a conclusion based on evidence.

Also, AC000027 was confirmed town yesterday. If I were scum, I could have targeted him with my day action

and the kill

, giving at worst a good chance that the track couldn't be used. Just in case you were wondering, a possibility of no tracks would be better for scum than the certainty of one track.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I never called you scum and I'm not arguing you are right now. The only thing I'm arguing is that you're not confirmed town. I am a cautious player. I disagree that ac was confirmed town yesterday, but it is irrelevant wrt my point anyway. It is still true that you don't have to ever justify giving vezok inventions and he made it clear that he didn't feel good about his reads. You could have given acfan the invention and killed him, and I'll admit that's a really good point, but slight wifom.

2. This town is pretty strong and there could also be a mafia traitor.

Cognitive dissonance. You say here that the town is powerful, but you're arguing for me having a

negative utility role

as scum. That's fucking daft.

Uhh.. what. There's no cognitive dissonance. From what I know, this town seems pretty strong. I said that because Vezok believed scum were strong with mollie's role - I think this town is strong enough to oppose a scum team with mollie's role. But if Vezok disagrees with me and still thinks scum are stronger, then it was also worth pointing out the possibility of a mafia traitor, a negative utility role as you called it. I'm not supporting two contradictory beliefs, I'm supporting one and addressing a player that believes the other.

Except that you've provided no evidence for the idea that Antihero would blatantly disregard the balance of his game. This is baseless, scummy fear mongering designed to open the lynch pool as wide as possible. And everyone is now dumber for having endured it.

I don't need to provide evidence. If my idea is right, then there wouldn't be any. You're right that I am trying to open the lynch pool. I don't think you're confirmed town.

Don't put words in his mouth, scumbag. Jingle said that we were mollie's push, and it's true. She's been voting us for stupid bullshit all game, probably on the hopes that I would get distracted by the critically high number of VIs in this game and get myself lynched like the last time we played.

You can't say I'm ridiculous for misinterpreting it, because that's exactly how you'd have worded it if you had meant that you pushed mollie more than anyone else. Don't call me a scumbag for an obvious misreading error. You have no good reason to suspect me. Just for that you lost your "I'm sorry for misreading" apology post. It would've been at least 500 words with the phrases "I'm very sorry", "I hope you can forgive me", and "I promise it won't happen again" each inserted at least five times.

Then your neck muscles must be incredibly strong: how else could you support the weight?

Hey, I do have a big brain! Thanks, I'm flattered you can see that through my posts.

Let's do this in baby steps:
a. GG's 'crumb' on day1 showed inside knowledge of their role to anyone they targeted (except PV, because he wasn't reading the thread)

Can you show me the crumb please? I'd address this part of your post, but I couldn't word it any better than Saki.

But given your track record, I don't think you're qualified to make the assertion that "logic you don't understand" equals "bad logic."

I have a pretty good track record actually.

No. Wicked is saying that I'm scum with a drawback-only role, and also that town is too powerful which makes bulb a likely traitor. It does not mesh at all, and there's no evidence for it. He just fears POE.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you were scum. I never said Bulbazak was scum. I never said you were scum with Bulbazak. I haven't said who I think the scum are yet and I'm probably not going to do it today. All I am saying is that Vezok is the only confirmed townie here right now.


There are a few other posts that I'd like to acknowledge, but it'll be a few hours.

[Wickedestjr]

LOGIC REBUGGING TIME WITH MOSS

Vezok and I are town. I'm still town reading Marquis and Saki. Although I would like to point out that the alternative to 'sensor pr thingy', 'luck', or 'genius scum' wrt the killing is that Saki's scum.

Why is this so? Please remember that I am an inventor, not a jailkeeper. I give my inventions to town for the entirety of the game; so unless you are insinuating that vezokpiraka, PeregrineV, and acfan1234 are my partners, this is a false conclusion and is not logical at all.

Well obviously I don't think you're partners with vezok and acfan. Thank you. And I fully understand your role, unlike you on night 4.

I still stand by my belief that the alternative to 'sensor pr thingy', 'luck', or 'genius scum' wrt the killing is that you are scum. Take night 4, the night that acfan died, as an example. You said it yourself, "Scum must be really smart... They sniped acfan when everyone was expected to protect him last night, like how did they know I was mistaken?" I think it is illogical of you to attribute the acfan death to pure genius - no genius could have expected you to make that mistake. But if you were scum, then scum definitely could have predicted that mistake. In general, on any night, it is much easier for scum to find success in their night kills when one of the two protective inventors is on their side.

And yes, I'm still aware that you're an inventor and not a jailkeeper.

I don't think the ac/Peregrine/invention/jailkeep thing is confirmation that PeregrineV is town either. If Saki is scum, then that negates the 'confirmation' right away. Plus, even with ac's town flip, I'm not comfortable making the assumption that scum really wanted him out and that assumption is the premise behind PeregrineV's 'confirmation'. In general, I'm not comfortable saying PeregrineV is town for his actions because his actions ultimately led to this nearconftown status (there's a hypothetical scum motivation).

1.

Firstly, you have to believe that PeregrineV, as scum, received 2 whopping town inventions Night 2, and used them both in a town-aligned fashion (protecting acfan and copping an unknown: Bulbazak).

2.

Remember that hypothetical PeregrineV scum received the cop from GG, and

could easily clear one of his partners, but instead chose to cop an unknown in Bulbazak, and narrow down the mislynch pool even further.

3.

Also remember that you cleared acfan yesterday. Previously, he was viewed as scum by many players (including myself) and was on the table for a mislynch. Why wouldn't the scum have "really wanted him out", after gaining conftown status as yourself, AND being a PR in a doctor giver? Would it be logical for the "scum" to have "killed acfan for towncred"?

Lying Cat was saying that PeregrineV was confirmed town, IIRC, because he protected acfan when it would've been a great opportunity for scum to night kill him. If you are scum, then that confirmation is negated right away because we could rely on you to protected acfan and scum could nightkill him the same night that you accidentally mess up.

1. Given that people were claiming their actions on day 2, it doesn't make sense for PeregrineV to admit to using his inventions in a "scum-aligned fashion". It is illogical of you to call him town for the way he used his inventions because neither is really hurting him if he's scum. Protection - could have used it on acfan for town points knowing that his team was going to kill someone else. Investigation - either inno'd an inno for wifom or inno'd his partner to help his partner. There is nothing telling about his protection choice because he didn't save acfan. There is nothing telling about his investigation choice because he claimed it in thread. Are Majiffy and I town as well? We used our investigative inventions well too.

2.

Why are you assuming Bulbazak is town and not one of his partners? Scum slip?

3. a. The investigation doesn't actually confirm people as town if there's a traitor. b. Scum were doing very well, probably weren't expecting to lose two members due to tracker results, thought they could win with two popular town reads, maybe. c. Maybe scum have a role blocker. d. Other.


It might actually be Saki + PeregrineV. Looks like Saki slipped that he knows Bulbazak is town.

[Wickedestjr]

That potential slip actually deserves its own post.

Remember that hypothetical PeregrineV scum received the cop from GG, and

could easily clear one of his partners, but instead chose to cop an unknown in Bulbazak, and narrow down the mislynch pool even further

.

It looks like Saki knows that Bulbazak is town here. Even though that is based on PeregrineV being town, which he is arguing in this quote. He can't argue that PeregrineV's town if Bulbazak is town because Bulbazak is only known town if PeregrineV is.

It might actually be Saki + PeregrineV.

[Wickedestjr]

Mollie scum flip grandly greatly incriminates majiffy

And he's being dick the whole game anyway

Last game I was town with Mollie in we tunneled each other the whole time.

Majiffy, what's your point here?

[Wickedestjr]

I think I might vote Saki here. Slip + acdeath the same night that Saki happened to 'make a mistake' both bother me. With two protective roles in the game night 4, it made perfect sense for vezok and acfan to get the two protections. No way scum took that risk imo.

But given that it is the day before LyLo, I'd like to reread for the first time since the two scum flipped. And I'd also like to hear the tracker result.

Please, lets not rush this.

[Wickedestjr]

Actually, no, I'm ready.

Vote: Metal Sonic

Still going to reread now though.

[Wickedestjr]

I rechecked the ZZZX vs. Metal Sonic exchange from day 1. Before, I read it as town vs. town, but now that ZZZX is known scum, I think it is actually scum vs. scum.

The signs;
-they are both quick to vote each other
-ZZZX is unusually confident in this exchange, moreso than at any other point in the game - can't see that confidence from him as scum attacking town
-it's the only memorable exchange involving ZZZX
-they both ignore each other afterwards, or at least I can't remember any future interaction between them from days 2-5

[Wickedestjr]

So guess who I saw visiting LC last night?

Vote Metal Sonic

Okay,

now

Bulbazak is confirmed town.

[Wickedestjr]

Last 2 days I don't think I've had a chance to post.

Jailed AC and docced vezok either the night before or the night before that
Last night jailkept Vezok

More when I get back, need to move a chair or something.

Saki gave you the jailkeep but was seen visiting LC last night. Can you please hammer Saki?

[Wickedestjr]

err Metal Sonic now

[Wickedestjr]

[Wickedestjr]

Good game all.

Thanks for the game Antihero and goodmorning!

So should Wicked, for playing a pretty astute game, especially D4 onwards.

Thanks a lot!

[Wickedestjr]

Scum QT? Dead QT?

[Wickedestjr]

Ah missed that. Reading now.

Thank you.

[Wickedestjr]

Something I said in the dead thread, that I want to reiterate here, is that Wicked was extremely perceptive very early on in the game, and was my first and strongest townread throughout. I think he was really on point with a lot of his observations, and made really good connections with the data he had. I was a little disappointed that his analysis seemed to go ignored for a large part of the game.

This is a great thing to see after only being called things like "scum or really dumb", "f***ing daft", and treated as a VI. I also appreciated your Dead QT comments. Thank you very much! Means a lot.

Would love to hydra with you sometime, Wicked! <3

I'd love to hydra! You're a very savvy player and I'm sure we could do well working together. That would be fun and now that this game's over I probably have time for another.

[Wickedestjr]

Something I said in the dead thread, that I want to reiterate here, is that Wicked was extremely perceptive very early on in the game, and was my first and strongest townread throughout. I think he was really on point with a lot of his observations, and made really good connections with the data he had. I was a little disappointed that his analysis seemed to go ignored for a large part of the game.

Of course it had to be ignored!

Hey, you and MS were actually two of the only people to acknowledge my day 2 thoughts. Thanks, scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Day 1's Three Major Bandwagons

Wickedestjr - 6 (vezokpiraka, Perpetual Nonsense, Doduo, Lying Cat, Majiffy, MTD)

Lying Cat - 7 (mastin2, MTD, Titus, Marquis, ac1983fan, Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka)

mastin2 - 9 (Lying Cat, MTD, Marquis, Guilty Gunsmith, ac1983fan, Wickedestjr, Perpetual Nonsense, vezokpiraka, Titus)

I have almost lost all faith in VCA.

[Wickedestjr]

Also ya WP wicked. You nailed PV and Saki there at the end on your own.

Oh definitely. Everything after 3396 was amazing and Wicked carried the team. I had zero faith in either wicked or majiffy going into endgame, and they proved me wrong. Very well played.

Thanks!

gooooooooood

my plan is WORKING

Haha, I don't know what your plan was but okay. Props to beast and Bulbazak for being the only two townies to stay off all three of those bandwagons.