Advance Wars UPick!--Game Over..?

[Bookitty]

/confirm

[Bookitty]

It's a joke, because I'm so useless that my votes will probably always be on town.
(also, I thought I wrote 'catch' scum in there, but I apparently did not.)

Was it a joke or a typo?

[Bookitty]

I'm still trying to figure out the Varsoon thing. I don't want to vote notscience, though, because whenever anyone is begging for my vote, I go all Admiral Ackbar.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I've been busy preparing for a big snowstorm (and the subsequent being snowed in for a couple of days) so I didn't have much of a chance to keep up with the thread yesterday. Sorry for relative inactivity, but that will change now.

I didn't even realise I was part of a neighbourhood until people started talking about it in the thread. I haven't played the game, but I read the wiki. I get now that the Black Hole nationality doesn't imply Neo Black Hole scum, but that wasn't clear to me at first either, so the discussion among Fery, Cephrir and Varsoon was making no sense when I first read it.

Cephrir's reaction "I caught scum!" seems really genuine to me. Fery's more measured response is probably a playstyle thing, but I am reading her as town too. Varsoon... I don't know there. His playstyle is so different from mine that I have difficulty reading it. I would trust Fery and Cephrir on this, though, not having seen the actual chat in the neighbourhood. If they (and I) are wrong, then at least there would be plenty to work with in terms of associations. That typo or scumslip by Varsoon isn't helping me feel Varsoon-town either.

I <3 Save the Dragons but I think he's dead wrong on CABD. Giving information to town (and in this game I feel we really need it) is pro-town. A vague feeling that it's done for bad reasons isn't enough to negate the positive help it's provided. Same logic applies to Saki.

I think it's worth noting that Ms. Marangal and Varsoon are competing for the biggest wagon over the last pages. So, the thing about not letting scumreads vote the lynch wagon? I don't have a clue how anyone is reading me, but I don't know that this is all that enforceable in a game this size. This mechanism appears to provide a motivation for scum to push a counter wagon that could be town-vs-town just to have a chance to be on the lynch wagon. I could be wrong, but it looks that way to me. That said, I'm willing to take the judgment of my town reads on whether they want me on the Varsoon wagon.

Townreads = CABD, Cephrir, Fery, Saki, Flubbernugget

Let me know.

[Bookitty]

Flubbernugget is a town-read because I haven't seen him be this aggressive nor this out-front as scum. His play is a bit erratic as either alignment imo, but he's not this open with his reads and opinions as scum in my experience.

You disagree? I have minimal meta experience with most of the players here, so I'm not confident on reads at this point in the game. I put my reads in order in the post you quoted.

For the other part of your post, okay.

VOTE: Varsoon

[Bookitty]

@ bookitty: why is saki a town read?

Saki gave opinion on the best actions for town in much the same way CABD did. His level of contribution wasn't as impressive as CABD's imo, but the fact that he made an effort reads town to me. I am not the best at reading Saki either, but I think there's town motivation behind his posts.

[Bookitty]

now that varsoon has released our role names to the fucking public for no fucking reason whatsoever

we're going to lynch him right

Yes.

[Bookitty]

17. Daytalk is enabled for all factions by default.

Here's my only qualm. If factions also means alignments, then Varsoon could have posted that info to the scum in their thread. Nonetheless, posting it here is just narrowing down targets for the nightkill and is painfully anti-town.

[Bookitty]

HOW WOULD I KNOW ALL OF YOUR ROLE NAMES IF I WAS SCUM?

Why are you implying that scum wouldn't know the rolenames of those in their neighbourhoods/nations? How would that make sense?

Serious question. I don't know why you'd think that (or anyone would think that).

[Bookitty]

This reminds me a little of the way Varsoon self-destructed in the Touhou Imperishable Nights mini game. I cdon't think there's anyone here besides Cabd and me who played that game.

What was his alignment there, please?

[Bookitty]

Alignment Affiliations are the ones that determine your alignment. The primary two in this game are the Allied Nations and Neo Black Hole, which represent the standard town/mafia factions, respectively. There may or may not be other Alignment Affiliations.

Okay. Here's why outing the entirety of your neighbourhood is anti-town, apart from the obvious. Third party alignments wouldn't necessarily have access to the information in any given nation. You just gave a huge boost to any third-parties in the game while destroying the trust of your own group (not that there was much, granted, but any remaining good will you had there has been utterly destroyed).

What is the advantage to town in leaving you alive now?

Ninja'd by Fferylt, but yeah, that.

[Bookitty]

Also, Orcinus looks town to me. Just above Flubber on my previous list now.

[Bookitty]

The opening PMs specifically say there's just Allied Nations and Neo Black Hole.

It says town wins when scum is dead (paraphrased). It doesn't say what you're saying.

[Bookitty]

Please, kindly step off of my wagon if you are town.

Does anyone else see the issue with this?

[Bookitty]

Apart from the replacement summary tell, which I don't agree with based on my own personal experience (I give summaries as town quite a bit), what is your case on Orcinus scum, Mara? I apologise if you've given it before, but I haven't seen it. If you have, a quote would be fine.

I hate what Varsoon's actions have done to this game and I believe that the most protown thing I can do today is get it stopped, regardless of his alignment. Which is why I finally voted him. I have trouble understanding how any town player in their own neighborhood this game feels differently.

This ^^ I agree with.

[Bookitty]

@Varsoon: Don't confuse the issue, though.

1. You outed your neighbourhood PRIOR to me saying that scum probably know who is in a particular neighbourhood anyway because they probably have scumchat to share that information. That doesn't justify your move preemptively. It doesn't make your behaviour less anti-town just because it doesn't have the same horrible effect. Seizing on something I said as your justification for your actions doesn't justify them in retrospect.

2. Your stance on your neighbourhood frankly makes no sense. If you thought it was a masonry, then why would you deny it in thread? If you didn't, why would you share your role with people of uncertain alignment? You don't seem to know yourself what it was you thought you were doing there.

3. Save the Dragons and ABR will back me up that an unintentional slip can often denote scum. Saying "someone is bussing me!" is about equivalent to saying "I want to stay in the game to help scum." It's not irrelevant. Your "it's a joke, no, it's a typo, well, it's both" explanation didn't impress me.

4. Spamming the thread is anti-town regardless of your alignment and makes it harder for town to sort their reads now and in the later game. It is even worse for any possible replacements.

5. Your playstyle may differ; as town in your situation, I would be giving reads and commenting on other players in a substantial way instead of just flailing randomly to prove my innocence. Especially in a game like this, giving as much info on your reads as possible to town is critical for town. You're not doing any of that; instead, you're engaging in frantic OMGUS and trying to prevent your lynch by every single means available to you, including some pretty anti-town moves.

[Bookitty]

I haven't played the game, but the wiki is available and shows who the main players are for each neighbourhood. If roles are linked to flavour, the information is out there to be had.

It's not rocket science, imo.

[Bookitty]

because scum likely have this information already.

No, that is not why. You JUMPED on my comment that scum would probably already have the information. If you had thought that possible or likely, you would have made the argument yourself previously. So this is FALSE.

[Bookitty]

@Varsoon: The other option I can see is that you knew scum had the information already and you were just waiting for someone to comment that way so you could jump on it, present it as evidence in your defense and not look like you had an alibi all lined up. In the right context, it could even read townie.

The problem with that is that you're now using it to justify a move made BEFORE my theory was introduced in thread. That isn't what happened. Why are you arguing that it was part of your reasoning when it clearly was not?

[Bookitty]

TL:DR: You outed the town BEFORE the "scum have the info anyway" argument was made. Your epiphany came AFTER. How can you use that epiphany as part of your thought process when it clearly could not have been?

[Bookitty]

it's multiple reason with the focal point starting from that, from what I can tell.

What do you mean by this? I don't understand what you're saying here.

[Bookitty]

How much of Cabd's info has been helpful and how much is fluff? How much info has the potential to be helpful?

The flavour information given in the first part of the game has helped me personally to a significant degree in understanding the game. It gave context and guidance about the flavour that I think would have been beneficial for scum to keep under wraps.

@Varsoon: You still fail to understand my most confident point against you. You said that you outed your neighbourhood to the town in part because you knew it wouldn't help scum, since they probably already had that info. That COULD NOT have been part of your thought process unless your reaction to my comment was faked, since my comment came AFTER your outing.

[Bookitty]

@Varsoon: The tone, text and HUGE print of your Post 685 and Post 687 don't fit with your version of events now. If you had thought of that, why wouldn't you have posted it in thread prior to my comment? Why say "Actually, hold the fucking phone." in Post 684?

Either your epiphany was faked, or your use of that as part of your reasoning for outing your nation-neighbours was a lie, imo. They can't both be true.

[Bookitty]

My reasoning for outing my neighbors is that I thought scum already had access to all that info.

HOW WOULD I KNOW ALL OF YOUR ROLE NAMES IF I WAS SCUM?

O RLY?

[Bookitty]

Varsoon has been caught in a direct lie. While I'm not arguing that town never lie, I'm going to say that it shouldn't be rewarded and that he needs to be lynched, NOWish.

[Bookitty]

Varsoon said that he thought scum already had the info he gave out. That was part of his reasoning for outing his neighbourhood, according to him.

The post I quoted from him came after he outed his neighbourhood.

[Bookitty]

In 866 I meant that I thought scum knew all the players in my neighborhood.
Not necessarily their role names.
You're taking 685 out of context.

The context for 685 is that if I did know all their role names as scum, then it'd be anti-scum to share it in the game rather than just in a scum-thread.

Why is the bolded part true?

Do you feel it was an anti-town move to post all the names/flavour names in the main thread?

[Bookitty]

It is a thing, and even if it isn't, I was unsure on orci's alignment, and couldn't figure out if it was Orci just being Orci but the drop was just a big seller

The "drop" being the replacement tell.

like, Despite being one of the top posters, he's surprising low on content. He says he's pushing both mine, and varsoons wagons, but I don't really even see it. even when he's town, and not voting someone he's vocal about his scumspects and pushes them, makes cases on them and such, but he's been pretty fency from what I'm used to seeing

As far as I can see, this is Ms. Marangal's whole case on Orci. It's not that great a case, and she even says as much in the first quote.

Her defense of Varsoon is something that makes me think he could be town, honestly. There's no percentage in defending scum as scum; however, there's a big payoff in trying to fight a town-lynch for towncred after the flip. Varsoon's counterbuddying is irrelevant to that; of course he'd be more likely to read someone defending him as town regardless of either's alignment.

I think most of the wagon on Varsoon is town

, but I know firsthand the power of OMGUS, so I could even see him thinking his wagon was mostly scum.

I hate the modkill discussion. Partly because of the bolded part above, but also because it deprives town of the knowledge that could be gained by the full lynch wagon and the flip. That's the primary reason I'm not moving my vote to Ms. Marangal, but I want my suspicions out there before we go to night either way.

[Bookitty]

@Mara: Yes, you're basing your case on Orcinus on one tell and pushing his lynch heavily. Yet you excuse Varsoon for a whole host of much better tells and defend him by pushing that lynch.

If Varsoon is town and you know it, that makes perfect sense. I've done similar as scum. Defending a townie under pressure is a great way to build towncred. The weakness of your case on Orcinus, however, undercuts its effectiveness imo.

[Bookitty]

but that defense would have also started a whole lot sooner if I was scum

Or not. I mean, how much sooner could it have started? It's like less than two days from the start of this day and we're 38 pages in.

[Bookitty]

Meh. If Varsoon flips scum you can disregard my mini-case on Mara, thanks.

I don't think scum would blatantly link to each other the way both Varsoon and Mara have done.

[Bookitty]

@Mara: Your case on orcinus is painfully weak. You're pushing it hard and taking lots of time to post short things here; you could take that same time and build the case you claim to have and present it. Lack of time isn't the issue, imo. It's the way you're choosing to use it.

I'm not voting you because my read depends heavily on Varsoon's alignment and I don't know that yet. I presented it because I wanted my read out there before the day ended due to what I saw as a threat of suicide by modkill.

[Bookitty]

On the contrary if varsoon flips scum Mara is also scum

Because I made a post in our neighbor QT saying that I felt Mara was super scummy but I didn't want to push a case on her because I didn't want to distract from varsoon wagon

After that Mara started talking about how she feels unthreatened by my push

So I think it's related

Okay. This means (apparently) that Mara is scum getting info from your neighbour chat. If Varsoon flips town, that means someone else in that neighbourhood is scum.

[Bookitty]

and, literally nothing else matters.

I could be lynched and I'd break rules just to keep pushing him

Then why aren't you making your case on him?

"I'll do anything to have him lynched other than actually presenting reasons why!"

[Bookitty]

If lower activity and aggression and a discredited tell is your whole case, it's crap, sorry.

the case remains short because I'm busy doing stuff

This implies there's more to say. Why aren't you saying it?

[Bookitty]

All right. Let me present an alternative scenario, as someone who thinks Orci is town.

1. I believe that Orci isn't pushing you because he's scared of detracting from a Varsoon lynch and he's really sure Varsoon is scum.
2. He even said as much in his neighbourhood, apparently.
3. If he hadn't said that, I'm sure someone from the 'hood would have piped up and told us differently.
4. Varsoon has been the biggest motivating push for his own lynch ITT.
5. As a result, there hasn't been a big reason for others to push it a great deal.
6. Where has Orcinus pushed himself as one of the most useful players in this game?
7. Why is Varsoon supremely town? Why does he get a pass for blatantly anti-town behaviour? Are all of the people in his neighbourhood who are scumreading him scum themselves?

[Bookitty]

I read that as "strongest townreads" personally. Making it three people also presents scum with WIFOM decisions.

Since two of the three were among my strongest townreads at the time, that might have been my confbias showing.

[Bookitty]

6. Where has Orcinus pushed himself as one of the most useful players in this game?

[Bookitty]

Fery, what is your read of Orcinus? Of Mara?

Ninja'd: Want a recap, ABR? :p

[Bookitty]

@Fery: I have Mara as lean-scum (it would be full scum if not for the WIFOM I keep having over why scum would push a lynch so hard; I've even considered the possibility of bussing) but otherwise same.

It's weird that I haven't seen much to make me question my townreads given the amount of activity in this game. That could be good or bad.

[Bookitty]

@ABR: Varsoon claimed his role in his neighbourhood in a way that made his neighbours think he was scum. Neighbourhoods are likely mixed alignment.

Varsoon got an early wagon and responded by outing the others in his neighbourhood with both character names and roles. He's since defended this move as pro-town and has asked the mod if a modkill would affect the points earned by those on the wagon.

Ms. Marangal is pushing a lynch of Orci based on him giving a summary like this one for a replacement into the game. She also feels he's not aggressive enough to be town in this game. She's actively defending Varsoon and has called him god-town, iirc. It strongly reminded me of my defense of Glork in Oldy and made me think scum.

I've argued with both Varsoon and Mara. I think Fery, Cephrir, CABD, Saki and Orci are town. Some other weaker townreads.

I'm sure I've forgotten some things. If so, I hope someone else will point it out. Also, this is my perspective only.

-awaits a vote from Mara-

[Bookitty]

-awaits a vote from Mara-

you beat me to the joke

<3

Hey, what's your take on my case on Mara? I'm especially curious given your previous Orci vote.

[Bookitty]

To be fair Mara is pushing Orc for more than just that.

I quoted the posts with her case; it was the replacement tell (which I just committed) and the lack of aggression. What else was there?

[Bookitty]

Thanks, Bookitty!

Anytime <3

[Bookitty]

Also, this is my perspective only.

@Varsoon: What do you want? I can't write a summary of the game from someone else's perspective. You made the modkill comments ITT. If they weren't relevant, why did you bother? It looked like a threat to me.

I could add: A lot of other people posted too. I wasn't suspicious of them particularly, so I didn't include them, but they are: [insert player list here].

You have the same opportunity to present your reads/summary. No one is stopping you.

@STD: It's the lack of aggression that I also mentioned. Orci gave a pretty compelling reason for that argument in that he'd said in his neighbourhood chat that he wasn't going to push her, and ta-da, she doesn't find him threatening. If that wasn't so, wouldn't someone have spoken up?

[Bookitty]

Then why didn't you give one, Varsoon? Even now, it isn't too late.

EVERY summary of the game is going to be biased in some way. People have reads and those reads are reflected in their summary. See Rashomon for more details.

Ninja'd: I don't even.

[Bookitty]

<3 Thank you!

Please someone hammer. Please.

[Bookitty]

If I were in his neighbourhood and he was bleeding this kind of information, I would lynch him as a matter of policy.

[Bookitty]

Again, I'm sorry if I ruined the game for any of you.

No, you did not. Would play with you again.

I just can't see the town motivation for what you're doing. Dragging out the process for 30-some-odd more pages just makes it harder for replacements and those with limited time to read and post here. There was no end in sight for this.

I hope you're scum, but even if not, it has to end.

[Bookitty]

Dragging out the process for 30-some-odd more pages just makes it harder for replacements and those with limited time to read and post here.

I was not arguing that you were the only one posting, by any means, Varsoon. I myself argued with Mara for at least a page worth of material.

[Bookitty]

@Ms. Marangal: How much of your suspicion of Orcinus is based on his role in the game?

[Bookitty]

How is asking that question scummy, ABR? I don't get your point there. Or is that not what you mean by saying the perfect thing that scum would say? If not, then please explain.

I was unconvinced by Ms. M's case on Orcinus. I don't agree with the "if you give a summary of the game on request you're scum" scumtell. Also, she was saying it was a 100 percent scumtell and then backed off that when others disagreed. So I want to know where her head is at.

[Bookitty]

@ABR: You have to let Oldy Mafia go, dude. Also, reread Day One of this game again. I think I took firm stances and even pointed out things from my own scum play that I saw in others in this thread. If I were scum, why would I pull back the curtains like that?

Anyway, I'm fine with you analysing what I post. Go for it

[Bookitty]

I have no idea what you're accusing me of, ABR, so I can't give much of a response. It's like you're saying my playstyle is somehow suspect regardless of my alignment. I have no response to that.

What do you think of Ms. Marangal's case on Orcinus yesterday?

[Bookitty]

@Ffery: Was SSK more active in the neighbourhood than in this thread during Day One? Enough for you to get a read on him?

I would like an answer to my question to Ms. Marangal. Not interested in wagoning yet.

[Bookitty]

abr

I'm just calling anyone with a house avatar "house avatar" from now on btw

That's WOLVERINE, you superhero-illiterate person!

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I am wrong too. Apparently it's Vincent Cassel. Who I've seen in a few things but never seen him look like that.

Anyway it's NOT House.

[Bookitty]

The town games Brian Skies mentions are all minis. ABR was town in Oldy Mafia 2, a large game in which STD and I were on the scum team. His contributions there were pretty similar to here imo. You can also see a sample of my scum game there.

[Bookitty]

I agree considering we don't have a completed game.

I've meta'd you.

[Bookitty]

@MafiaSSK: Who are your scumreads, please?

[Bookitty]

I ask because this was asked and answered:

Honestly, a lot of my problems from a lot of the players come from a lot of inactivity, ironically.

But even still, the ones that I most suspect would probably fall somewhere in flubber, orci, smp, and ceph. Pretty weak, but I can point out specific posts that have pinged me if you want.

Shh. Quet Ceph. I was getting to it.

Well, not that I'll get any kind of answer now, but I wanted to see if they'd changed given the pressure on him. I also would have liked some expansion on why. It seems pretty clear to me Orcinus didn't want him in the neighbourhood, and I was wondering if that was part of the reason.

Why are you answering questions I didn't put to you?

[Bookitty]

Yes. Or, you know, see if they changed anyway?

What's your read on MafiaSSK, StD?

[Bookitty]

And before you say it, yeah, I know your vote is on him. I want more detail than that. Why?

[Bookitty]

Whatever. With all the soft-claims in this game, I can't actually ask questions as they occur to me without being afraid of calling attention to or actually outing a power-role. I'm going to stick with my previous suspicion and stop trying to spur discussion. I am starting to think ABR is right, given the slowdown in this game.

VOTE: Ms. Marangal

Still waiting for the answer to my previous question.

[Bookitty]

I didn't like his post I quoted in my vote. I've softened my stance as I've seen him talk, but there's also something bothering me about how he was pretty confrontational at first and then took a more humble, apologetic stance. I'm thinking now.

Okay, I legitimately missed that.

[Bookitty]

I don't understand anything Flubber says.

Possibly because he contradicts himself every other post.

[Bookitty]

bookitty!

i'm doing some lynx meta right now but is there anybody you'd like to work on with me tonight?

Half asleep right now. Assign me something and I'll do it tomorrow.

[Bookitty]

Will do.

[Bookitty]

Mini 1518: Death Note Mafia

SMP is aggressive here; he was a town one-shot strong rolecop. He's pushing his lynch preferences even though it's apparently his first game on our site. Notably assertive and even combative at times.

Mini 1545: Teen Wolf Season 1

Another town game for SMP. Less certain here, maybe because he's vanilla townie. Knowing that fact during my read, SMP was being badly misread by town and was lynched day three. Note: Orcinus was scum in that game and was DEFINITELY playing under the radar in a way I would read as scum. Not so here.

Mini 1566: Lunar Silver Star

Scum here, finally! Scum power role no less. Flies under the radar for a good long while (not dissimilar from here, though the pace of this game is faster, I think). Exhibited the scum caught for the wrong reasons tell. Only gave content under pressure imo.


This game:

Gun to head, I'd say SMP's play here is closer to Lunar than to Teen Wolf and isn't at all like Death Note. He's a little more active here than in Lunar and seems a little less preoccupied with looking helpful when he does post in this game. Lean scum, but I wouldn't call it a strong lean.

[Bookitty]

Micro 309: Triplicate Mafia

BipolarChemist was scum in this one. Played cute, played the "I'll BRB" (active lurking, I guess, for want of a better term) card, lots of questions about theory and setup. It's worth noting that BipolarChemist won this game as the lone remaining scum. Clearly he's good at playing scum.

Micro 337: College Mafia

BPC was vanilla townie in a non-standard setup. He curses more here and is moderately less cutesy. One big difference is BPC's active role in encouraging discussion throughout the College Mafia game.

NY 172: Another Large Normal

BPC was VT and replaced out of this one. Prior to that, he called out someone for buddying, posted way more sarcastically than in Triplicate and got fake vigged. His reaction to that led to BPC being viewed as town until his replace out from my read. He does the "reads later" active lurking thing here too, so maybe a null tell.

This game:

BPC's is almost a mirror image of his play in Triplicate until Post 231, which reads really genuine to me. After this, he starts playing more like College Mafia, addressing people in the game and pointing out things he sees as scummy/odd. I'm going to call him as town for now based on his contributions from post 231 on.

Comments, criticisms, corrections on either of these metadives and comparisons is welcome. I have no meta on either of these people other than what I just got and posted here.

[Bookitty]

I don't really see the parallels; it looked to me as if SMP completely ignored Fuzzy's weird 3rd party claim throughout the game.

EBWOP: Okay. I see a contrast, sure. Sorry, didn't understand it at first.

[Bookitty]

I think you have to consider that Death Note does appear to be his first game on this site. That said, SMP wasn't playing like a newbie in Death Note. It's not null that he ignored the low-hanging fruit in Death Note and seems to be seizing on it here; that said, it's not a huge red flag for me. I feel WAY more confident in Ms. Marangal-scum based on Day One play and Day Two non-play.

[Bookitty]

@STD: Do you feel based on our previous game together that I typically am lazy as scum? Serious question.

@Albert: She's not here, she's not answering questions. She's dropped off the radar. She popped in, reiterated her Day One Orcinus-tunnel and that's about it. Is this supposed to make her more town to me? My read isn't going to change based on nothing.

[Bookitty]

No. I hadn't remembered she was V/LA but it's irrelevant to my read, which is that she defended Varsoon in a way that I don't feel town could have done confidently (not knowing his alignment) and that she was tunneling on you (Orcinus) without giving any good reasons for it. Her play today could have shifted my opinion; since there hasn't been any, she remains my top scumread.

[Bookitty]

With the caveat that this may be OMGUS, I don't feel that STD's push on me is genuine. He's seen my scum game up close and personal and he's making accusations that he ought to know are not supported by fact. Also, he's voting Flubber while pushing on me much more. Albert's vote, while a bit odd, isn't out of the realm of his town game as I know it and I don't find it especially scummy (though some other things he's doing strike me as pretty scummy, i.e., baiting Ceph whom I feel is town) but STD seems to be playing up paranoia about me in a way I find fake.

I didn't find SMP scummy particularly until I did the meta stuff; now he's up there too, but not at the top tier.

I don't like MafiaSSK but ... okay, the fact that ABR and MafiaSSK were left out of the move (and SSK was apparently told not to join) argues that some of my top townreads read SSK as scum. That's part of my thought process on scum-SSK. I didn't find his posts as bad as others are saying that they were.

I am waiting with a big question mark for wgeurts to explain himself.

[Bookitty]

Oh, just realised I didn't answer. STD is my second strongest scumread. Sorry.

[Bookitty]

Still would like an answer to that question.

[Bookitty]

@STD: Do you feel based on our previous game together that I typically am lazy as scum? Serious question.

I feel like you've seized on ABR's fairly reasonable response to Oldy Mafia as an opportunity to coat-tail along with his suspicions. He says he's paranoid about me and you immediately jump on it even though you KNOW my scum game and you ought to know I'm not lazy as scum.

Voting me doesn't change the fact that your arguments against me look borrowed and trumped-up.

[Bookitty]

Okay. If you were really curious about my alignment, why didn't you bother to meta me? You even made an argument about my use of meta on someone else without checking my meta to see if I might have had a reason for that meta. How does that even make sense?

It seems to me that you're using meta from one game to imply that I'm sooooo scary as scum but then it's not relevant to find out what my town game is like? RLY?

Yeah, I don't think our exchange was genuine either. I think you wanted to jump on ABR's suspicions to justify your move and get off the Flubber vote that was starting to look toxic.

EBWOP: Okay, if you're going to use the DGB tactics in this game, I don't even. And why do you know that ABR is town, pray tell? I'd like an explanation of that townread.

[Bookitty]

First:

You said you didn't know why I would meta Flubber. This lets me know you haven't even done a cursory check of my recent games. That argues that you're not really interested in finding out about my town game, something I think a townie would want to know before voting someone.

Yes, I'm trying to be open about my past scum meta, of which there isn't a lot. I think you're playing pin the blame on the townie right now and hinting that my meta is the reason DESPITE the fact that you don't actually know anything about my town meta.

I've said I meta'd people. I've posted the results in detail in the thread.

No, I think you're playing worse here than you played in Oldy and I think you're playing scummy. Do you think I'm playing the same way? Why or why not?

Dangan Ronpa 1, Epic Mafia Time. A sec and I'll get links.

[Bookitty]

Mini 1577: Dangan Ronpa Mafia

Mini 1580: Epic Mafia Time

What, just picking out people from a wagon and assigning your own alignments to them like that's supposed to be authoritative?

No, I'd actually trust the scumputer over that.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty I'm writing a novel, I'm taking classes, I'm trying to mafiascum, and find enough time to keep involved in my friendships and relationship.

I don't have time to do a cursory check of my recent games.

But since I'm assuming you are interested in finding out about my town game since you're town and not scum, which games have you checked of me?

I'm not voting you.

Before I would, I would check it. I checked Mara's, though to be fair someone gave Cliff's notes for that already.

And your AtE about how busy you are is noted. We are all busy, I think, and if you don't want to do meta on people, then don't base your suspicions on meta of a single atypical scum game. Either meta right or don't rely on ABR's carry-over OMGUS as your justification for something you ought to know isn't true.

[Bookitty]

I think this assertion is pretty unfounded. Relatively few players frequently bother with heavy meta. A lot of players in this game simply happen to be the ones that do.

If you're using meta as part of your reason for voting someone, I would hope it would be more than "O I playd w/her 1 time & she scum, so she scum here." You don't get to use meta as your reasoning if you don't have both sides of the equation, imo.

[Bookitty]

Now I feel like you're just trying too hard :/

I work a full-time job, a part-time job as a freelance writer, I have friends, family and other things that I have to do. So acting like that's an excuse for something in a game is not going to fly with me. I like STD but if he remembers the game that so influenced his read on me, he would know that I'm busy too. I can empathise, but I can't view it as a legitimate excuse.

Is there an in-game reason for your wish to defend STD, Cephrir?

[Bookitty]

Bookitty could be scum. I'm wary of her. I'm not currently scumreading her but my gut is telling me not to be quick to townread her helpfulness.

Please explain to me the reasoning for this post, which seems to be designed to inspire paranoia about me without actually taking a strong stance either way? Why would being helpful indicate that I was scum and especially notable for it, in the absence of meta information?

[Bookitty]

I get heated during arguments too. To me it's part of the game and has nothing to do with the players themselves, though. I still <3 you even if you are scum.

When is Ms. Marangal due back anyway?

[Bookitty]

Meh, I don't want her lynched before she can respond.

UNVOTE: for now.

[Bookitty]

I looked at STD's day one play and he did in fact vote CABD for what seems to be the same reason that he suspected me, which is sort of a towntell for STD even though CABD is a strong townread for me.

But seriously, if being helpful starts being an accepted scumtell we're all doomed.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Some questions for

wgeurts

:

Can you explain why "we should kill mara," please?

What do you find opportunistic about STD's vote on flubbernugget, especially given the fact that flubber isn't the leading wagon by far?

[Bookitty]

The STD vote was naked and was placed convienty at the start of a wagon which looked like it could grow. The mara case will be up in 24 hours, I'm phone posting this.

I look forward to this. If you could also give reads on other players, that would be great too.

[Bookitty]

@MOD

: Could we please have a prod on grapes?

[Bookitty]

Also I disagree with boo's meta read on bpc, as I'm not getting the feeling he's contributed anything significant to this game so far. I'd like her to expand on her read a bit more and explain why bpc's play is to make him unlikely scum.

In a bit of a hurry and I will be back later to say something about STD. But my own read on BPC was based on comparison of meta; he started out in a way that made me think he was scum, but his Post 231 seemed REALLY sincere to me. Post 396 pointed out something that both STD and Cephrir have since said outright was true, so it's fairly insightful that BPC picked it up on his own.

BPC's vote on Mara also made sense to me in terms of timing and reasoning.

I'm not super-mega-omg-he's-town for BPC as I am for some others, but I'm not seeing him as scummy based on stuff so far.

[Bookitty]

The interactions between you and STD look like buddying without the context that they are related to out-of-game friendship.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I have a second to post this now:

I looked at town-meta for STD to try to get a picture of what his town game looks like. In the game we shared as scum, he was bold and sort of swashbuckling in how he addressed the town. I think his confidence was commented on more than once as a town-tell in that game.

I took a look at this game:

Mafia With a Twist: The OK Corral

I think this game is a good comparison because it had a weird mechanic (much like this one) and because STD lasted for a good long while in that game. STD's play in that game (where he was town) and in this game are similar in a number of ways. He's paranoid, he's uncertain of his reads, he moves around a bit in his perception of the game. Most importantly, he's not showing the confidence and bravado that was so evident in Oldy.


I'm going to file STD in town for now anyway.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I'm an idiot. I had read this game yesterday and was waiting for wgeurts to respond before I posted about it, so I searched and found the wrong link for the game in question.

The correct link is:

Mafia with a Twist: The OK Corral

Sorry about that.

[Bookitty]

The other game I linked STD was also town and mostly the same as in the OK Corral, so it can be used for meta on him for anyone who wants to have a look. It just wasn't the game I had read in the first place.

Have you played with BPC a lot, Ceph? I don't actually get why, if he knew you and STD were good friends, it would still be a towntell to have spotted it in this game. That would make it less a towntell in my opinion.

[Bookitty]

i could give you many examples of this, and i will if you think it necessary.

Can you give me one, Orcinus? I don't need a link, just the name of a game.

I had real problems trying to meta Mara apart from the links you gave earlier because she posts in a lot of games she's not in and she's in a ton of hydras. So I could use a bit of help.

[Bookitty]

@wgeurts:

1. Does your neighbourhood agree with all of what you've just posted here?

2. What is the basis for any of these reads, please? More than "with what me and my neighbourhood know." That's not good enough.

3. How does any of that make a mass flavour-claim a good idea?

[Bookitty]

@Wgeurts: You need to explain in detail what you meant by Post 1513 and Post 1514.

To help motivate you toward that end, have a shiny new vote created fresh for you!

VOTE: wgeurts

[Bookitty]

STD, what's your take on what wgeurts just said?

[Bookitty]

VOTE: lynx

this wagon just became a whole lot qualityer

Suck-up :p

[Bookitty]

As I don't trust the hood yet I'm not going to fully belive their claims. I also don't want potential PR's lynched. All the info isn't from our hood, some of the hood player's are claiming to have recieved messages from the mod whichcontain messages on players.

If this is true, then why would anyone on your list be confirmed as anything?

[Bookitty]

@Wgeurts: Without revealing names of those in your neighbourhood or roles, do you think it more likely everyone in your neighbourhood is town or that there are scum there? For those who have given you investigative information, do you think they trust you? Do you trust them? Do you think it's possible they might lie as town if they didn't trust you?

Please do not respond to this with a list of names and reads from your neighbourhood. This is not what I am asking for. I want a general overview of what you meant by the posts I mentioned earlier. I also second the request that you explain your initial "we must kill mara" comment in context of what you meant at the time that you posted that.

[Bookitty]

Also, I'm pretty much willing to bite and scratch anyone (figuratively) who tries to sell a Ceph-scum read at this point.

[Bookitty]

Have fun, you guys

I don't see anything so weird/"interesting" about the Lynx wagon and I'm not philosophically opposed to it either. It's just not my primary interest. I am not crazy about SMP making the vague implication that the wagon is scummy without making accusations outright. I thought I understood why the wagon started, so it didn't ping my scumdar.

Why do you think the wagon started on Lynx, SMP?

[Bookitty]

Okay, let me put this another way.

What did you think of Lynx's vote on Ms. Marangal?

[Bookitty]

I kind of want to start calling him gogurt now

^^ me too, especially since I misspell it over and over every time I try to address him.

I may be busy tonight; if so, I will surely be back tomorrow morning to check in.

[Bookitty]

@Bookitty - I don't recall being on the 'main wagon' as you decided to state. I said I agreed with the lynch (at the time, before xthousand more posts popped up). Please be a little more concise.

I didn't say that. You're quoting Honey Bee.

Please be a little more accurate

[Bookitty]

And why was

I

the investigation target???

The tracker said you where visited by someone, idk.

To my knowledge this is not how a tracker works. That would be a watcher, wouldn't it?

[Bookitty]

Orcinus was visited by someone who someone tracked, then a member of our hood get a mod message saying orcinus is town.

Okay, never mind.

I am very confused. It feels like when a little kid tells you a story: "Well, this one guy, he did this and then HE did this and another guy did that and..."

[Bookitty]

It tries to ride the wave of the previous votes.

Okay. Lynx put down an essentially naked vote on Ms. Marangal. I think that Mara was the leading wagon at that time; I haven't been paying attention to the votes on Mara, honestly, because I am not voting her until she can come back and defend herself.

I think star points are important. I don't think they trump getting the right lynch, though. Lynx's vote looked to me as if he was just doing it for the star points (I think he actually references that in his unvote post). To me, that doesn't necessarily make him scum (see STD's late vote on Varsoon, and I'm currently reading him as town) but I can easily see how others would think it merited a vote. Your quoted answer seems to touch on this tangentially, so why would you think the wagon was so inexplicable?

@Brian Skies: Please make my eyes bleed.

[Bookitty]

The mara case will be up in 24 hours, I'm phone posting this.

Wgeurts: What was your mara case? You just abandoned it and moved her to town. What was it before that, please?

[Bookitty]

@Notscience:

You hydraed with Mara in Ikaruga as town. How do you think her play here measures up to your impression of her in your hydra in that game?

I'm not finding Vesperia really useful, Orci, because Mara claimed 1-shot town bulletproof and she was actually 1-shot scum bulletproof in that game. It's hardly a fakeclaim at all. Also, imo, Bert was doing most of the heavy lifting in that game.

Also, thank you Cheetory for replacing and providing content!

[Bookitty]

The fact you're actually reading the game and willing to give opinions at all is a positive development and a real improvement over the person you replaced. Thank you for that!

[Bookitty]

someone replacing in asking for a summary is different from someone who was playing from the beginning being like 'i'm lazy, summary plz'

How so? Alignment-indicative different?

[Bookitty]

@boo: Not necessarily a surefire tell but it can be informative. Why is that important?

Post 983.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I don't have it as a scumtell for anybody; I think town does that just as much as scum. That's why I asked about a specific application of it.

[Bookitty]

Meh, I never see it as being a tell either way. More a playstyle thing. And yeah, mitigating circumstances do matter.

[Bookitty]

nobody I've read thus far has stood out as likely scum in the same way.

Can you expand on this, please? Do you have past experience with Orcinus? Do you think this is more his scum playstyle or his town playstyle? You mentioned possible confbias because you read Mara first; do you think that's a significant factor in this read? I'd just like to understand your thought process here.

[Bookitty]

^^ This is why I'm townreading Orci. I don't see scum acting like this.

My scum meta of Orci also has him hanging back more and avoiding controversy, things he hasn't done here.

[Bookitty]

So you think a desire to use one's ability merits opportunism and general lack of anything that may resemble scumhunting/actual contribution to the thread?

Did you read what I wrote at ALL? You even quoted it.

Also, thanks, Orcinus. I'll read this now.

[Bookitty]

It tries to ride the wave of the previous votes.

I think star points are important. I don't think they trump getting the right lynch, though. Lynx's vote looked to me as if he was just doing it for the star points (I think he actually references that in his unvote post). To me, that doesn't necessarily make him scum (see STD's late vote on Varsoon, and I'm currently reading him as town) but I can easily see how others would think it merited a vote. Your quoted answer seems to touch on this tangentially, so why would you think the wagon was so inexplicable?

So you think a desire to use one's ability merits opportunism and general lack of anything that may resemble scumhunting/actual contribution to the thread?

Here's what you said. It doesn't have to do with why you thought it was scummy. It has to do with misrepping a position that you actually quoted. Why did you do that?

SMP was arguing he didn't even know why people voted Lynx, and I was explaining. So what's your issue with what I said? Do you think STD is scum for voting Varsoon for the star point and admitting as much? Why not come out and say so, then?

[Bookitty]

Well, didn't make him scum would be more accurate.

So what was your point again?

[Bookitty]

Also, thanks, Orcinus. I'm kind of distracted at the moment but I should have time tonight to really look at those. I skimmed the first one already.

[Bookitty]

I didn't say that. I said it didn't make him scum. I don't think STD is scum, and he admitted to voting Varsoon for star points. I don't know if Lynx is scum or not, but he's not confirmed scum because he admits to wanting star points.

Again, what is your point with this? Why aren't you questioning SMP, who doesn't even know why anyone would vote Lynx in the first place? Or questioning Lynx or even STD directly, since you think their actions are scummy?

[Bookitty]

To put the quote Brian Skies found so objectionable into context, here's what came before it:

I don't see anything so weird/"interesting" about the Lynx wagon and I'm not philosophically opposed to it either. It's just not my primary interest. I am not crazy about SMP making the vague implication that the wagon is scummy without making accusations outright. I thought I understood why the wagon started, so it didn't ping my scumdar.

Why do you think the wagon started on Lynx, SMP?

So I was actually defending the wagon on Lynx against SMP's attack on it. This would be a novel form of defending Lynx, to be sure. So how was I justifying Lynx's actions, Brian Skies?

[Bookitty]

@Brian Skies: What did you mean by your Post 1710, then, if you're not suggesting I was using a weak reason to justify his actions?

Can you clarify what you think now that you've actually read my post in context?

[Bookitty]

What is your question? Ask it in plain English, please.

If it's whether I think going for star points is scummy? I guess it would depend on context. If it's why I didn't jump on that wagon? I was pressuring wgeurts to try to get some sense out of him and to me that was more important. If it's something else? Ask away.

[Bookitty]

Okay, Orci! I can only read so much tonight

Anyway I believe you. I'll check them out and report back too.

[Bookitty]

There's nothing to ask Lynx or STD because neither of them contribute any original thought to the game.

This probably isn't worth arguing, but ouch

I'll put your contributions up against Brian Skies any day of the week, STD. At least your attack on me made sense.

[Bookitty]

I still want an answer from wgeurts about why he accused and voted Mara and then backed off completely. I want the reasoning behind why he said what he did, disappeared and then came back and recanted.

I have a paranoid theory that he wanted us to quicklynch her while he was gone.

@BrianSkies: Whatever, you said you didn't even read the first post which was the only reason I commented it. If SMP doesn't start calling the Lynx wagoneers scum I wouldn't have posted anything about it because IT WASN'T MY PRIMARY INTEREST. I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you that I don't care about a Lynx wagon because I am looking at other people right now.

Speaking of fence-sitting, why don't you give those reads? You're still voting grapes and, while you made a pointed little comment about my vote on Varsoon, you voted him too. So let's hear some non-fence-sitting from you, okay? Reads please. Make our eyes bleed.

[Bookitty]

@ Brian Skies: Your position makes no sense. Here's a summary of why:

People vote Lynx.
SMP says, What what WHAT? You guys are voting him for no reason! Scumpoints for the wagon!
Bookitty says, It's not no reason. Lynx essentially voted for Mara without any reason at all. That's a good reason to vote someone.
Brian Skies says, Why are you defending Lynx like that? Why why why?
Bookitty says, What, I wasn't defending him, what the hell?
Brian Skies says, Oh, I didn't read the context. But it doesn't matter anyway because irrelevant! Irrelevant!

What the hell, man. Make sense.

Your refusal to give reads is noted, as is your lack of pretty much anything else of use in this thread.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, you wouldn't have been my first choice, Orcinus.

I don't know. I have major paranoia about that slot. I can't imagine revealing role information or results in his neighbourhood would be safer than revealing them to the entire town, given that fact.

[Bookitty]

that slot = wgeurts.

I just can't spell it without looking it up.

[Bookitty]

Please, explain how I'm misrepresenting you using direct quotes, as I did.

I think the misreps went ALL the other way.

And you look bad all by yourself. How's that vote on Cheetory working out for you? If you think Lynx is so scummy that my failure to comment it vociferously enough is grounds for an interrogation, why aren't YOU voting him, hmmm?

[Bookitty]

you think a desire to use one's ability merits opportunism and general lack of anything that may resemble scumhunting/actual contribution to the thread

Phrased as a question. Can't be derived from anything I said. Obviously attempting to influence others to think I somehow implied that.

you were the one who said it didn't look scummy.

I didn't say that.

To make it more understandable and less pointed for you, why don't you think it makes him scummy?

Again, I didn't say that. I said his wagon was justified. I didn't say anything about scummy or not scummy except that I thought his wagon was JUSTIFIED. That I understood why people were voting him. That I was okay with the wagon. Wow, I must really have not thought he was scummy, right?

There's three times you tried to put words into my mouth or asked questions in a leading way that didn't reflect anything I'd said.

Meanwhile, your vote is sitting on someone you don't think is scum. So that's awesome too.

[Bookitty]

@STD: Do you have significant experience with Brian Skies? Do you have a read on him yet?

I'm reading Orci's homework and I really don't want to do another meta dive on Friday night, but I can do it tomorrow if need be.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I've read/skimmed/ISO'd the games Orci provided.

He's right. She consistently fakeclaims when under pressure. She also tunnels, usually on someone mostly townread.

[Bookitty]

I have a decent townread on Ceph and STD.

I don't know about Ffery, but other people with better meta are reading her as town and she's done nothing scummy imo.

I think paranoia is healthy, though, as a counter to confbias (one of my weak points).

[Bookitty]

I think she's town, ABR.

[Bookitty]

Because I believe her soft-claim and because her thought processes seem logical to me. She's asked questions I understood (I think she asked me about my read on Saki day one, which made sense to me), she wanted Brian to give his reads (and so do I, but he's apparently not going to) and overall the timing of her posts and her questions has seemed town to me.

I'm sure I can find the quotes if you need them, but I'm not doing that tonight since I read a bunch of games to verify Orcinus's comments on Mara and I'm not up for it at the moment.

[Bookitty]

I'm sure I can find the quotes if you need them

This would be extremely helpful.

Okay, tomorrow. Please remind me if I forget.

[Bookitty]

No, something happened to you last night and why should have clickdd if you were town

There's the soft-claim. I don't know anything about tracker except from wgeurts, and I don't understand what he's talking about or why his neighbourhood is apparently doing what Varsoon did and treating it as a masonry and bleeding information in all directions. I'm scared to ask about it too because of power-role issues and my fear that wgeurts is either being deliberately misled by town OR scum or that his neighbourhood actually agrees with him that a mass flavour-claim is an awesome idea.

This is why my vote is on wgeurts and why I want answers from him before ANYTHING else.

Anyway, I'm out for the night.

[Bookitty]

Wgeurts: I repeat, do NOT just spew out the names, roles or flavours of those in your neighbourhood. Don't do it.

[Bookitty]

For ABR:

[quote="In post 298

as I wait their response, I'll start off here

Saki
honey bee
Ffery
Orci
notsci

BPC
Ceph
STD

Flubbernugget
MafiaSSK
Cabd
Varsoon

Its a read list, yes. that is where my gut takes me, atm and as far as cabd goes, if hes town and wants to be read as town, he can go and earn it. set-up spec is null, coming from him

Okay. These two quotes from Mara are needed for context.

Also ffery is town and mara I moved back to null. I need to hear the exact reason why I was town to mara.

As town, I often get very suspicious of people who say "Oh, you're town!" I know it's kind of popular to say that questioning a townread on you is a scumtell, but I disagree with this because it's something I do a lot as town.

I don't need starpoints. I'd rather have someone with better need for them on the wagon.

We've established that all factions have daytalk. (It's in the rules.) If HB was scum, she could have said this specifically to scumbuddies in their chat to greater benefit to that faction.

Post 1085 indicates she's carefully reading the game and that she's interested in the gamestate.

Okay, at this point I trust that HB knows what she's doing. So read Post 1148, Post 1162 and Post 1170. I don't know what that exchange means, but also note that Cephrir didn't vote her after them. Ceph is my top town read. He questioned her about it, but he didn't pursue it.

She also questioned my read on Saki early on Post 629 and then questioned my read on BipolarChemist, one of her scumreads, here:

Also I disagree with boo's meta read on bpc, as I'm not getting the feeling he's contributed anything significant to this game so far. I'd like her to expand on her read a bit more and explain why bpc's play is to make him unlikely scum.

I liked her reasoning for her Lynx vote in Post 1491 and, while I don't agree with her arguments in Post 1492, they don't feel contrived to me. She responded to SMP with things I agreed with and she wanted reads from Brian Skies (again, I do too, and his refusal to give them makes him look scummy in my eyes).

TL,DR: Honey bee's logic makes sense to me, her arguments come at the times I would expect from someone actively following the game, I see the reasoning behind her arguments even when I disagree and she's taken a couple of risks that wouldn't have made sense for scum.

[Bookitty]

Can you explain this? Why is this a towntell?

Applying consistent logic to different people in the same game is a sign that the same thought process is being used to sort people. Since scum generally know who the townies are, they don't show the same consistency (even bad consistency) very often. STD used the same logic to express paranoia of both CABD and myself. I also checked STD's town-meta (though I think it was after that, I don't recall exactly) and confirmed for myself that he's playing similarly to that meta here, so I'm comfortable putting him in town after that. I think STD is a good player and it's certainly possible for him to fool me, but for me that was enough evidence.

@Wgeurts: If you think Mara is town, why do you want her to flavour claim?

EBWOP: I was working on that, Cheetory, hold your horses!

[Bookitty]

OMG scumtell horse abuse OMG OMG.

[Bookitty]

Also, your last quote from Orcinus I'm pretty sure was intended to be sarcasm.

[Bookitty]

Okay, my bad. I've been accused of failing to recognise humour before, that's all. :p

[Bookitty]

Oooh, cool.

[Bookitty]

Also, regardless of what he says about me, I think Cheetory is town for coming in and doing this amount of work (and honest work, from what I can tell) on this game. I wanted to get that opinion in beforehand.

[Bookitty]

i. At the start of a game, I usually start with a default that everyone is town. This works for me because then, if people deviate from what I would expect as town, I can spot it and adjust downward without starting at a point of intense paranoia. I'm filing you in town because the questions you asked make sense and seem to come from a town perspective regardless of whether you agree with me or not. My townread on you also derives in part from your willingness to take on Orci, who I think is town and who I think a lot of people are town-reading. Flubber is null leaning scum at this point due to my inability to understand his posts, but I stand by my original read that he was playing similar to the meta I did on him prior to this game at the point I gave my townread. At this point, though, I don't have anything approaching a solid read on him.

ii. I don't think STD made a counterwagon, at least not so far as I recall. I believe that was a generic statement, like, "Look out, there are pigeons!", not "That pigeon there is suspicious!" STD's jump on the Varsoon wagon for star points came later, iirc. He was honest about his motivations imo and so it's not much of a tell either way.

In a game where I don't have meta on most of the players, yeah, I'm going to try to figure out what part of their play is playstyle and what part is indicative of scum using meta. I played perhaps the best scum game I ever played very recently with two players who are pretty suspicious of me for what I think are meta reasons based on that game. I want those players to read me correctly, so I'm trying to be as honest as I can about why I'm playing like I am and how this game differs from that one. I am pretty sure the quote you listed was directed at one of those players. (If I'm wrong, please tell me so; I am not going back and ISOing myself right now.)

So in short, no, I think my play in this game is a convincing reason why I'm not scum in this game. The added information I was giving was intended to explain that more fully to people who played with me in a specific game in which I was scum.

I think I covered all the questions; if not, let me know.

[Bookitty]

Okay, this is actually two questions, I think.

1. I don't really base so much of my scumhunting on meta in smaller games or where I know the people involved. This game has been different in that regard because of complex mechanics, people I have no experience with whatsoever and the sheer size of the game both in number of players and in number of posts. Most of the players here have meta with each other on which they are basing some of their arguments. STD and Cephrir are friends and could be misread without that information. Orci's case on Marangal is heavily supported by the meta that he provided. So in a game where meta is playing such a big role in other people's play, I want access to that information as well.

2. I don't really know what you mean here. Self-metaing myself as scum isn't going to be helpful to you or anyone; if I were scum, I'd just lie, right? Oldy was an outlier for me because it represents the first time I enjoyed playing scum ever, in large part because I really liked my buddies in that game.

My play is my play in whatever game I'm in. I could provide examples of my scum game if you wanted to read them, but you could also find that easily since I don't hydra. But since I recently returned from a long hiatus from Mafia, I don't think I could possibly have much meta to try to imitate. If you mean, when I'm scum do I try to look like town? Well, sure. But I assume that would be a given.

[Bookitty]

Why would you think it's scummy for him to not be applying meta to someone who would worry more about meta than most people in this game?

STD was my scumbuddy in the game referenced. He was suspicious of me for what I believed (and still believe) to be reasons based on that game. Because he had an inside track on my scumgame, I felt (prior to meta-ing STD's town game) that he was me-tooing ABR without regard to the meta I KNEW he had on my scumgame. I didn't use meta in that game much, as STD has reason to know, so that's not even part of the equation. But deriving a read from one scumgame without checking someone's towngame looked to me at the time as if STD was just using ABR's suspicion on me to throw suspicion my way without merit. "You look too helpful, you must be scum!" (paraphrased)

[Bookitty]

VOTE: mara

Is she back and with access to a computer now?

[Bookitty]

Okay. My belief that I could get a logical answer from wgeurts is fading quickly, especially given his back and forth on Mara.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ms Marangal

[Bookitty]

I don't know The problem I have is:

1. If wgeurts is being truthful, then his neighbourhood is sharing WAY out of proportion to what I would think reasonable given that we know that scum are probably present in at least some neighbourhoods.

2. It's possible that scum might give out misinformation in neighbourhoods to try to mislead town. Alternatively, it's possible town might be giving misinfo to try to flush out scum.

3. The mass flavour-claim thing. I don't even. I mean, did his neighbourhood decide he would be their representative to the town to suggest this? Why would they?

4. I voted wgeurts. My vote was on him for a good long while. No one jumped on that, and I was watching. I am not sure what this means, but I would guess it means either his neighbourhood generally agrees with him in principle and doesn't mind this information getting out or that they are scared to vote him for fear of outing themselves. Either way, it's not helpful in sifting through the information dump he provided to try to figure out what's going on in this game.

I just don't know. I know that what he's told us doesn't correspond to his actions. If he thinks Mara is town, why ask her to claim? I haven't seen a vote count for a while but I'm sure she isn't the leading wagon based on what I remember.

I got nothing.

[Bookitty]

You can think someone is town based on play and then want to verify that with night actions

Sure, but wgeurts was voting Mara prior to that and said something like "I wish I could say why" in calling for her lynch. He never has said why his read changed and she hasn't posted enough here to justify it imo. So I don't think it's that.

[Bookitty]

I am actually willing to claim along with gogurts and leave the rest silent, how's that?

I'm ready to trust your judgment, I guess.

[Bookitty]

Can I request that wgeurts go first, though?

[Bookitty]

Do you agree with the mass flavour-claim, CABD? Was it discussed in the neighbourhood?

[Bookitty]

Can you give me your read on wgeurts, please, Cabd?

[Bookitty]

Mara used an amnesiac cop ability to cop Orci as town, which was sent to one of Cabd's neighborhood members.
There's a tracker in Cabd's neighborhood who tracked Orci last night.

I don't think these parts are right, but Cabd can clarify.

[Bookitty]

MafiaSSK, SMP, maybe Flubber, maybe wgeurts, I did think Brian Skies but he's basically conftown now. Not sure on Lynx yet and keeping an eye on ABR. Meh, BipolarChemist has been flying under the radar since I said I thought he was town, throw him in there too.

Ms. Marangal for reasons already given and repeated. Top scumread there.

[Bookitty]

I was blindly making assumptions that I've come to realize are impossible.

Avoiding the elephant in the room, what were those assumptions?

[Bookitty]

Then why mention them? I don't get that.

[Bookitty]

Cabd: Does your power require stars to work? Or, rather, did it?

[Bookitty]

You might want to PM Nati because I believe the request has already been made in the replacement queue.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Good luck.

[Bookitty]

No, something happened to you last night and why should have clickdd if you were town

There's the soft-claim. I don't know anything about tracker except from wgeurts, and I don't understand what he's talking about or why his neighbourhood is apparently doing what Varsoon did and treating it as a masonry and bleeding information in all directions. I'm scared to ask about it too because of power-role issues and my fear that wgeurts is either being deliberately misled by town OR scum or that his neighbourhood actually agrees with him that a mass flavour-claim is an awesome idea.

This is why my vote is on wgeurts and why I want answers from him before ANYTHING else.

Anyway, I'm out for the night.

What does this have to do with your read on Honeybee?

Nothing. That was answering someone else's question. It had nothing to do with Honey bee. Context matters.

The reason that your refusal to give reads looked scummy to me (and it's still scummy, even if you're not scum) is because you asked what level people wanted before then saying "I don't feel like it." (paraphrased) Why toy with the offer if you aren't going to deliver on it? It just seems like being a jerk to me. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but figuratively sneering down your nose at other players doesn't read town to me.

[Bookitty]

I don't really understand this point. Weren't people specifically asking for Honeybee to be on the Varsoon wagon? So why would she respond to her scumbuddies instead of the people townreading her in the thread?

If star points are considered valuable and HB was scum, why would she say that? Why wouldn't she get on the wagon herself to keep star points away from town? If her scumbuddies needed points, why wouldn't she restrict the implied offer to them instead of posting it for everyone?

Nothing she did there makes sense for scum.

[Bookitty]

Okay. What I have derived from the thread about the two items of controversy was different than what wgeurts is saying.

I don't believe anyone said Mara was the amnesiac cop. All I read was that someone in the wgeurts neighbourhood got a message from an unknown party that said Orci was town. Someone else in the neighbourhood is a tracker who tracked (Mara, I think, but I don't believe it was ever said) to Orci. Mara has said that she did something to Orci's star points. Orci has said that he is missing one. So that would make sense and confirm the tracker if I read all that correctly.

Mara tunneled on Orci day one and called Varsoon "god-town," an opinion shared by very few people. (I didn't share it.) She hard-defended him without a lot of good reasoning. She also apparently believed that Orci would know who had taken his star point, something that was disproved by interactions between Ceph and Honey Bee earlier, I think. (HB, you said you'd check on something about that. Are the results something you could share?)

Throwing a fit and replacing out under pressure is more scum than not in my experience. However, the fact that it was done while drunk-posting makes it a little more difficult to read. The self-vote is what bothers me most there. I can see the arguments that Mara wouldn't do this as scum, but I don't know why someone would do this as town OR scum, so it's sort of null to me.

Cabd: If you answered my question about your read on wgeurts, I missed it. I would really like an answer.

We have four and a half days before deadline. It looks like Mara is being replaced. While I don't feel like a star-stealing power is something we can't do without, I'd like to wait on lynching that slot if at all possible to see what a replacement says.

UNVOTE:

I'm not particularly fussed about star points so if that ends up being the lynch and I'm not on it, it's not a big deal.

[Bookitty]

Sure. What's up, Orci?

[Bookitty]

Hey, ABR, can you read the part about the claims/what they mean in Post 1964? Orci too. Just the first two paragraphs, to make sure I didn't overlook something?

[Bookitty]

SMP, wgeurts, lynx. I'm back and forth on MafiaSSK.

I want an answer from Cabd on his read on wgeurts before I vote there, though.

[Bookitty]

Yes, but that doesn't say it's Mara. If Mara is town and not lying, she claimed a star-stealing power. Given her read on you, if she is town, it makes sense she'd use it on you.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I agree about the mention of the amnesiac cop, not with the idea that it's Mara.

Cabd is worrisome because he claimed a power not based on stars and not like the other powers (one-shot cop). He cleared Brian Skies, on whom I was developing a delightful little scum read due to unhelpfulness and semi-lurkiness. (Also probably OMGUS played a role.) It's like on Sesame Street: "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

I had a townread on him prior to that, though.

On ABR: Hmmmm. I had him as lean-town for questioning me, but I don't have a solid read on him now. He started playing more aggressively after people said he wasn't playing aggressively; that looks to me like a change in play based on how he's perceived. I just don't know for sure. Still lean-town, I guess, based on previous experience.

[Bookitty]

See, that doublevoter thing also makes me think ABR is town. It's not a great read, but it's what I have right now.

If Cabd is scum then Brian Skies is probably town regardless because I see no way scum ties himself so closely to another scum. If Cabd is town, then his role is frankly weird when compared to others in the game.

[Bookitty]

I don't know, ABR. I can't find it by searching ABR (that plain doesn't work) and it wasn't by someone who addressed you as Albert. If I do a complete reread of the game at some point I'll get it for you then.

@Orci: It's my first Nati game. I was making an assumption, maybe bad, that star points were the primary unit of action-currency in this game based on people's comments about wanting, stealing or not needing them. It seemed odd to me that it would be mixed in the way it apparently is.

I can go for an SMP lynch for sure, but I would like to hear about the replacement before I vote that way.

[Bookitty]

@ABR: No. What's more likely is that I read something addressed to someone else and misattributed the comment as referring to you. In any case, it's going to have to wait for a full reread which isn't happening for me today.

[Bookitty]

I think this says the opposite, though.

Here or in neighborhood?

I don't understand what you're asking Ffery here.

[Bookitty]

To my knowledge, you and Ffery are not in a neighbourhood with CABD. So what are you referring to, Orci?

[Bookitty]

Why, since the discussion started here? Couldn't you have asked her that in the neighbourhood?

I read it directly as you asking her about CABD's reactions in a neighbourhood that, to my knowledge, doesn't exist {Orci, Ffery and CABD}. Why would it make sense to take it to the neighbourhood when the only information you would have about Cabd's reaction to Mara's drunk-post claim was already in this thread?

[Bookitty]

Okay. I could be wrong, but the way I read what Orci said was basically claiming scum with Ffery and Cabd. If I'm wrong, so be it, but it's what I think and I'm going to vote that way.

VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

EBWOP: Because he said so, wgeurts, in this thread. And how do you know it's legit?

[Bookitty]

For wgeurts:

I'm functionally vanilla now so I can flat out claim that the cop clear was ~my~ oneshot power and it was very gated on who I could use it on (Which makes sense for the cheapest CO ever). And without saying specifically my limitations in case anyone ever manages to give me another shot etc etc, Brian Skies was the chocie I felt absolutely the best about.

[Bookitty]

Orci was talking about it here in thread already, though.

Meh, I could be wrong, but if that was a legitimate scumslip and those three are scum I want cookies at the end of the game.

UNVOTE:

[Bookitty]

This game is making me paranoid.

[Bookitty]

or this is mara being a total dick and replacing out as scum

If she wasn't having fun or wasn't able to contribute, then it's not a bad decision to replace out. There was still a lot of debate about her and she didn't even reach L-6. It's not like we ran her up to L-1 and THEN she replaced out. It's not alignment-indicative.

Can you explain what changed for you between Post 1978 and now?

Also, I believe at one point Mara was at L-4.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Here's my issue with lynching Mara/not lynching Mara.

I still find the slot scummy for the reasons I've given before, apart from drunkposting drama and replacement request. That isn't going to go away just because someone new holds the slot. Even if a replacement came in and provided sane content and looked amazingly town, the question mark over the slot isn't going to go away for me, at least.

Also, Mara has already claimed sort of. We're about four days from deadline if I am figuring correctly. Running someone up rapidly could potentially out another CO power of greater utility than the one Mara claimed, regardless of her alignment.

I doubt we'll see a replacement prior to deadline (I'll be happy to be proven wrong, if I am) and I don't know if it's worth asking for a deadline extension.

I was trying to think of positive reasons not to lynch Mara, but I am coming up blank right now. I'm sure there have to be some. I am not reading her as town, and I don't read her replace out as a towntell.

So what's the upside of not lynching Mara? If you think she's town, please tell me why.

[Bookitty]

How would meta help here? I looked at the replacement queue and she's never done anything like this before that I can see as town OR scum. Do you actually have meta that directly relates to this kind of outburst/incident? If so, I'd love to see an example of that, yeah.

Everything she was doing up til the drunkposting was scummy imo; I don't understand why you read her replace-out as town in itself.

EBWOP: Okay, but do you think that redeems the slot? Because I was thinking about Replacement-Mara being introduced and the first thing being asked is that he or she claim. Do you doubt that would happen? Do you think you might ask Mara's replacement to claim? Or is the slot conftown to you now?

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I don't know, Orci. I read those and I can see what you mean, but for me there's a huge difference between becoming heated as town (which I have been known to do myself) and doing what Mara did.

I mean, there's a context in which this happened:

1. Mara spent most of Day One defending Varsoon as town and tunneling on you. She said you were the only lynch for yesterday and made accusations that you were not aggressive enough in pursuing your case on her along with the tell that I'm discounting.
2. She never made more of a case than that. Okay, she was busy, but she was posting about how she was busy, too. I think I even said that she could have made a case in the time she was spending explaining why she wasn't.
3. If you weren't aggressive in pursuing her, then why the meltdown? Because you gave a bunch of meta today, but that wasn't aggressive in my eyes. I'm not even sure anyone read that stuff but me. Unlike ABR, I have but one vote, so it's possible you shared all that info with just one voter.
4. You can't really have it both ways (not you, Orci, I mean Mara here). If someone isn't aggressive enough, then the meltdown makes no sense. If you make an argument that they should be more aggressive, then the meltdown makes no sense.
5. The only way the meltdown, self-vote and replace-out makes sense to me is if Mara simply didn't feel she was being heard as town or felt she'd lost as scum already. I don't buy the "not being heard" because a lot of us were waiting for her to be back to try to figure out what she was doing with that weird half-claim and the tunneling and... all of it.
6. Mara said her role was non-confirmable. If that's truthful, we can't tell anything without a flip. If Mara is town, scum isn't going to resolve this question mark for us, I just bet.

So for me, I don't feel that it's fair to give a replacement a clean slate; I think I would want to know what Mara's motivations were, which is something no replacement could tell me anyway regardless of alignment. So I would be stuck thinking someone was scummy and possible scum while taking a chance of outing one or more useful power roles and looking elsewhere in four days time.

I numbered this to make it easier to address the parts you don't agree with.

EBWOP: That game you quoted doesn't approach the level shown here. She didn't self-vote and she didn't replace out; she voted badly. When she sobered up, she was regretful. Here, when she sobered up, she still replaced out.

[Bookitty]

4. Part of Mara's case on you was that you weren't aggressively pushing your case on her Day One. I didn't really feel you were pushing your case on her aggressively Day Two (today) either. But her meltdown seems to be in response to something she ASKED FOR from you and as such makes no good sense to me.

Look at it like this:

I say STD is scummy for not pushing a case on me aggressively enough. He responds by pushing the case really hard (not that I think you did that, but for the sake of argument). I then scream in horror, self-vote and ask for replacement.

Didn't I just invite STD to do it, in that case? Shouldn't I have been expecting it? Wouldn't my reaction look like overblown melodrama to you?

[Bookitty]

Too tired to think about this right now. If we're not lynching Mara, I could go for an SMP lynch, I guess.

I'll be around tomorrow.

[Bookitty]

Meh, I've thought it over and I don't have a better option for today.

VOTE: Ms. Marangal

I could also be sold a vote on SMP or on Lynx if I'm needed.

[Bookitty]

Let me guess, STD. Lurking? :p

[Bookitty]

I don't want to lynch notscience.

If outing your neighbourhood is a pro-town thing to do, then do you think everyone should do it, STD? Why or why not?

What is your view regarding Mara's tunneling on Orci? Her defense of Varsoon is far from the only thing she did Day One. Did you agree that he was scum and should be lynched?

[Bookitty]

Can you give me a quick list of your scumreads, STD? I'm having trouble following your logic on some things (not just in recent posts).

[Bookitty]

I'm okay with this lynch, but I still prefer the Mara one.

[Bookitty]

Cabd: What's your read on Mara-slot now?

[Bookitty]

I'm not convinced that ABR is scum.

However, I have noticed a weird tag-team thing going on with him and STD in which one will attack/vote me for a while, then drop off and the other one will take a turn. I think both were voting me at one point. This would be less problematic for me if ABR hadn't used my vote on Mara like it was super-glued there for life. If he doesn't trust me, then why trust my vote on Mara?

ABR: Why were you voting me, please?

I was kind of chalking up STD's votes as evidence that he was having trouble getting into the game; the same for his repeated "I want the Star points!" meme. At this point, though, I want him to make a case on me to explain his thought process, because I'm not seeing it and I still think he's following ABR's lead.

STD: Please make a case on me to go along with your vote.

Right now we have TWO replacement requests for slots in an 89-page Day Two game. We're about two days from deadline. I can vote ABR to get a lynch, but I think both Lynx and Mara slots are more likely to be scum. I understand Orcinus's 180 on Mara because he's been good enough to explain it. It feels, though, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) as if a lot of other people are treating that slot as conftown just until there's a replacement, though. When the replacement comes in, the suspicions will return and people will be asking for a claim and behaving as if the replace-out is not alignment indicative again. If this is wrong, please tell me so.

I think (and this is more tentative) that the slot SHOULD be questioned when the replacement comes in. I just feel like it's unfair to ask a replacement to explain things that were legitimately scummy and which probably can't be adequately explained regardless of the alignment. If the slot hasn't been redeemed by the replace-out, then it should be lynched imo, regardless of replacement or not. For me, the slot is still the same slot and what happened prior to the meltdown still happened.

That said, I don't want a no-lynch.

VOTE: LynxKuroneko

I can move my vote if needed for a lynch.