Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

[BROseidon]

vote: Untrod Tripod

guys, you need to lynch me today.

I'm a town-aligned player

whose passive ability is that anyone who targets me has their wincon changed to Cult. The negative utility if town targets me is too high, and leaving me alive will raise too many questions come lategame. There's no way to get a cop to verify my alignment, since the cop will become a Cultist.

lynching me is the optimal day 1 play from my perspective.

lol

[BROseidon]

vote: Untrod Tripod

guys, you need to lynch me today.

I'm a town-aligned player

whose passive ability is that anyone who targets me has their wincon changed to Cult. The negative utility if town targets me is too high, and leaving me alive will raise too many questions come lategame. There's no way to get a cop to verify my alignment, since the cop will become a Cultist.

lynching me is the optimal day 1 play from my perspective.

So jester, or a the hilarious bastard jester where he isn't really a jester and just dies, or some kind of cult bomb where whoever lynches him becomes a cultist.

Or he's telling the truth.

You missed the fake claiming scum possibility, although that's a super next-level play.

[BROseidon]

Thoughts, Bro?

Let me catch up on everything before posting them.

[BROseidon]

Now that the game's started-

We are a survivor that wins with everyone.

Our flavor is Pacman. That being said, we're going to be jumping on the main wagon from here on out.

Course, I might have some witty banter for you all. One doesn't just get in this awesome playerlist and lurk the entire time. Pretty much all I'm going to do though.

Vig this pls kthx.

[BROseidon]

His role is exceedingly dangerous if it's truthful, and I think DN's point about the claim being terrible for a jester is correct. It would be also an idiotic fake-claim for scum, since there is bound to be someone interested in joining the cult for giggles.

If he's telling the truth, nobody targeting him solves a lot.

[BROseidon]

Redirectors/Busdriver/Trolls.... ect

Who would all have to be cult in the first place. Like, someone could do that to troll, I guess, but I don't think anyone on this player list is that dumb.

[BROseidon]

Scum - For ignoring the claims …

But Adorkable isn't scum?

[BROseidon]

@Wisdom: He could be telling the truth, which is why we should lynch it and not leave the possibility of a cult open.

Wait.

If UT's role is actually in the game, you DON'T think there's a possibility of a cult?

[BROseidon]

(Outside of UT's role, that is)

[BROseidon]

UT, Why are you doing this so early.

[BROseidon]

If you're wanting to lynch them because they claimed survivor, that's a policy lynch. If they have other actions (besides the claim) that makes you think scum, then by all means, enlighten us.

So if we choose not to lynch a claimed survivor who has committed to vote the largest wagon. We get to Lylo and the survivor votes the towniest person so the remaining scum jump on to win. How is this not be the outcome? And if this is the outcome how is it not better for us to lynch now.

This doesn't even consider the possibility of lying. Which does exist.

So can you explain how keeping this person alive benefits the town.

Really the correct play is a vig shot, but that requires us having knowing we have a vig shot.

[BROseidon]

Multiple survivors with different win conditions isn't a surprise to me in the least

[BROseidon]

P-edit: @Major: I don't see the contradiction between the two roles.

You don't see a contradiction between two roles, both being survivors, having different win conditions? Why can I only win with town/mafia, but Skitty can win with any alignment?

Given the possibility of cult, no I do not.

...

Do you and Skitty really believe that Kise would include two survivor win cons where one strictly dominates the other?

[BROseidon]

Like, it would be one thing if the two win cons in question had partial to no overlap.

It's another thing where one player just gets outright screwed over.

[BROseidon]

SOMEONE is dumb enough to target me tonight. We do NOT need to introduce a cult to the game

Back to the "there's probably other cult floating around somewhere in this game if you aren't trolling us" point.

[BROseidon]

Is there still anyone who believes

Skitty is town

or are we done here?

...

[BROseidon]

Gonna do some maths.

[BROseidon]

I'm thinking that there's a 60% chance UT is telling the truth, 35% chance he's a jester, and 5% chance he's scum.

By those odds, Dayvig strictly dominates a lynch, which has a higher EV than not lynching if we assume jester is non win-stealing. If it's win-stealing, not lynching is stronger.

I'll deal with sorting the details of that if/when it becomes clear we don't have a dayvig.

Regarding the survivors, I'm fine leaving them around for now. Vig should go and clean them up, though; no reason to potentially hit a town PR when NS has basically said that he's going to do nothing and just sheep the largest wagon all game.

Early town reads on Bulba and Heaven slot. I agree with Bulba that AA9 is sketch, but AA9 is also always bad like that, so I'll hold off there.

[BROseidon]

I said that I'd rather eliminate UT so that we don't have to deal with a cult. No clue if there would be another cult in the game.

Hint: it's the same cult. UT randomly creating a cult with no other way to recruit makes a lot less sense than there being a cult that can recruit (probably less frequently than normal) that UT can add to.

[BROseidon]

Numbers are assumptions I got from gut. Mafia's a game of numbers at heart, it's just a matter of understanding them and being able to quantify them externally.

I like that bulba pulled off of AA9; it shows that he's not necessarily gunning for a lynch for the sake of a lynch. I also like how his early focus was everywhere; it indicates that he doesn't really have an agenda and is trying to be responsive to what he's seeing in the thread (rather than having an agenda and twisting it to what he wants to make happen)

[BROseidon]

like broseidon's entrance

<3

[BROseidon]

Wow that quote utterly failed

Mod edit:

I fixed it.

[BROseidon]

Is there still anyone who believes

Skitty is town

or are we done here?

...

Did you understand what I was trying to say there?

It's sort of a moot point because your options are 3rd party or scum.

[BROseidon]

What the fuck are you dumbasses even arguing about. Fucking lynch me

SOMEONE is dumb enough to target me tonight. We do NOT need to introduce a cult to the game

What I dislike is that he's making no attempts to scumhunt. It's acceptable not to want to lynch others, not trying to find scum before he gets lynched isn't.

But that just further proves that all he cares about is being lynched, because he gains some kind of benefit from it (or just wins)

Or apathy. If I was given the role UT described, I wouldn't give two shits about this game. I would rather just die and get it over with then play something else.

What it is is that I'm aligned with town so I think me getting lynched d1 is the best thing for the town

Too logical man. Strategy is for chumps

[BROseidon]

Also there's certain people I want to post who aren't posting and it makes me sad

[BROseidon]

I don't care about you because you're probably taking a bullet to the face

[BROseidon]

What the hell you guys talking about? Seriously? Bulba over reacted to three random votes on skitty becuz of their ridiculous claim. I just pointed out and told him to chillax but he reacted and said i was placating his words. I don't even know what the fuck that word even means. And he later continued his bull shit. What the hell i should say here..

You're calling "overreacting" what I would call "aggressive."

Also, how the fuck do you not know what placate means.

[BROseidon]

Why did the UT votes stop?

they dumb

so dumb

[BROseidon]

It's not a contest. Post less and post useful shit. If that's in your abilities anyways.

You're clearly just not competitive enough

[BROseidon]

@Bro: Who is Adorkable? I didn't remember anybody like that from my read.

Uh...

guys

there's something very important we need to do first

I'm not really in this game. Don't bother voting/targeting me.

vote Kise

#2cheeky5me #yolo #sorrynotsorry

Vote: Major Minor

Your name and the confusion it engenders....

Scum - For ignoring the claims …

because we dont believe you

Scum

Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai is sketchy too

Major Minor -> Cult-something

So 3 pages have given us three scum and one cultist.. Sucks that UT is the best lynch though…

Vote: UT

So you're going to try to tell me that you straight up missed a page-top post two posts and ~30 minutes before your post?

[BROseidon]

well nonetheless I believe if UT was town he would have lied about his claim in some way to pervent town from targeting him

Huh.

PGOs exist.

[BROseidon]

hey look most of p7 is Bro spamposting

have you considered being concise

I hear that's pretty great

Uh, I have the most concise writing on MS.

I just hate walls b/c they're anti-town. 1 point per post.

[BROseidon]

It was because I felt that scum would be jumping on Skitty for the Survivor claim, sensing an easy lynch opportunity. I became less gung-ho about it after more people kept piling on, and it was apparent that they weren't all scum. My only point of suspicion at this point is that JTST hasn't talked about anything outside of the 3rd party claims.

Why would scum not want to keep Skitty alive? They're basically saying to scum "We aren't going to scum hunt, and if you keep us alive till LyLo you win."

[BROseidon]

I don't want to lynch UT.

Yeah I hate it when people say shit like this.

[BROseidon]

Now that the game's started-

We are a survivor that wins with everyone.

Our flavor is Pacman. That being said, we're going to be jumping on the main wagon from here on out.

Course, I might have some witty banter for you all. One doesn't just get in this awesome playerlist and lurk the entire time. Pretty much all I'm going to do though.

skitty, why did you claim this? don't you know that survivor is a policy lycn?

Holy shit the coaching.

VOTE: Shos scum flip here is basically confscum Skitty ^_^

[BROseidon]

ZZZX, if you believe UT is mafia, it's highly likely he's a role that needs to die or wants to die via lynch. I don't think lynching him is smart.

well there are 3 things:

1- It is a gambit prob

2- IF he is mafia we have to lynch him anyway at some point

3- Its a damn gambit. and if he was honest then lynching him is helpful anyway

We probably have a vigilante of some kind that could deal with him.

...

...

...

[BROseidon]

From a town POV, there isn't an incentive for understanding the reasons of Skitty's claim. If he really thinks that a survivor claim = policy lynch, he would just, y'know, push the lynch and not really care about any sort of "whys"

[BROseidon]

From a town POV, there isn't an incentive for understanding the reasons of Skitty's claim. If he really thinks that a survivor claim = policy lynch, he would just, y'know, push the lynch and not really care about any sort of "whys"

wat are you talking about here?

I don't really know what to give you here because I explained my logic about as clearly as I could so...

[BROseidon]

Oh my god this is gonna me Mala from Wicked mafia all over again isn't it >:C

[BROseidon]

The point I'm making is that I'm making a valid but slightly nuanced point that you're going to ignore because you can't understand it for whatever reason.

[BROseidon]

Like, why would Shos write what he wrote instead of just attacking if he were town? What's the incentive for softballing it.

[BROseidon]

From a town POV, there isn't an incentive for understanding the reasons of Skitty's claim. If he really thinks that a survivor claim = policy lynch, he would just, y'know, push the lynch and not really care about any sort of "whys"

@mollie

[BROseidon]

Because I totally would listen to coaching from shos, bro

You're right

Whether or not you'd listen to coaching has nothing to do with it being given in the first place.

[BROseidon]

PGOs are not negative utilities either. They still hurt everyone but don't create an alternate faction which is so very bad for town.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying, but okay

[BROseidon]

Why is it only one directional with the flip? Why can't we lynch Skitty first? Wouldn't the tell play out both ways?

Also, have you actually seen in-thread scum coaching like that before in a game?

And I'm fairly sure I have, although I couldn't point you to where.

[BROseidon]

BRO the issue with your thought process is that it implies that there's no daytalk (which there is beecasue my hood has it)

And that I wouldn't have mentioned a gambit plan ahead of time as scun

1) I'll wait for confirmation from someone in your hood that I'm not scumreading.

2) Mentioning it ahead of time has nothing to do with it.

[BROseidon]

Also, how the fuck do you not know what placate means.

I don't either

...

[BROseidon]

I don't want to lynch UT.

Yeah I hate it when people say shit like this.

Is there a reason you've completely ignored the posts

I

said this then?

1) Your slot is already going to make the thread fucking unreadable. I'm not making that worse.

2) I'm fairly confident in my read-development timings on Nacho. Short-term I'm going to default-townread the slot, and if you're scum, I'll have that by around day 3.

[BROseidon]

This is true. Shos could have been considered coaching there. Not worth my vote right now but I like the argument in a way. If Skitty flips scum, the argument is even better.

It feels like Skitty's buddies are trying to link him to shos because they know he's doomed.

DN and bro should be definitely be on everyone's mind when Skitty flips scum.

[BROseidon]

Why is it only one directional with the flip? Why can't we lynch Skitty first? Wouldn't the tell play out both ways?

Good point.

Bro, if you think that was coaching, why the hell are you voting shos over skitty?

Vote was initially on Shos to draw attention in that direction. Skitty's already under pressure.

[BROseidon]

so vote skitty?

VOTE: Skitty

[BROseidon]

In all fairness, I also thought Wisdom was a native English speaker.

[BROseidon]

I'd like to know what games pie is referring to because I can only recall AoT and imperishable night. Also what your are referring to when you say we think alike because our only games together are AoT, earthbound, and xenosaga, none of which would lead me to that conclusion.

Also calling me scum for 1-linering is effectively calling me scum for existing.

[BROseidon]

Your Adorkable/Bro reads are interesting to me, especially considering Bro was oddly sensitive towards Ooba regarding Adorkable

Me noticing a potential associative is "oddly sensitive?"

Okay...

[BROseidon]

Your Adorkable/Bro reads are interesting to me, especially considering Bro was oddly sensitive towards Ooba regarding Adorkable. Bro doesn't really feel like he did in AoT because his play there was oddly wacky and scummy coming from him.

the main parallel I'm seeing is that of specious or otherwise manipulative argumentation

if you remember from that game, a lot of the arguments he was pushing weren't actually correct and were generally very shallow. he also heavily relied on this in NY167. on the other hand, in my experience with town BRO, all his arguments were *very* rock solid and logical. the coaching point reads as an example of this

I also thought it was weird that he brought up Wicked, bc if you look at his Mala case from that game, he had a lot more on Mala than what he has here and the arguments he had were a lot better, and it doesn't make sense that he would believe his coaching argument here with the same amount of conviction that he believed in his Mala case from that game. I think it comes from more of a scum-seeking-approval mindset than a town-trying-to-figure-things-out mindset. there are other posts that gave me similar vibes

there's some other things I think are individually scummy, which will have to wait until later bc no time atm. I'm also taking into account that BRO's scum play in AOT was probably the most obvious scum play I've seen, so I'd expect his play to generally be better than that.

In your experience with me where I've been scum like 1/2 the time, and in the town game you did cite (NY169) I played... very similar to how I'm playing here, actually.

You're also misrepresenting the Mala case. That Mala case wasn't a super rock-solid case in anyone's eyes but my own - fuck, everyone in that game let Mala get away with soft-CCing me as a conftown role because they thought my case was so thin.

(For reference: the read on Mala in that game was b/c she buddied a bad question of Mina's on page 2 or 3 that concerned hydras in a way that seemed slightly off, and her over defensive response led me to figuring out that she was scum with 2 hydras)

[BROseidon]

Yes

[BROseidon]

It's bad, but I also don't have much respect for TD as a player post Xenogears (where he pulled this kind of shit) so...

[BROseidon]

Yeah, he pulled this "lol I'm not giving reads" shit, Venmar copped him, then he derp-hammered Andy when Nacho was supposed to.

[BROseidon]

um i meant
what alignment

Town.

Also wtf you were scum in that game (unless I'm talking to Om w/o realizing it)

[BROseidon]

You should talk to ms about Xenogears, then.

[BROseidon]

So counter it, pie, I'm waiting. Show me the town motivation. So far all you've said has been "it was too scummy to be scum".

that is not what i said at all. if you had been reading my posts, you would know this.

your excuse about "lol no town motivation" is, and always has been, bullshit. the truth is, there is no scum motivation in the way NS handled this (and you can claim "lol coasting" all you want; again, if you had actually been read my posts instead of tunneling, you'd see that i did indeed give a response to that), and whether you think there is town motivation or not does not change that. if i wasn't aware you are notorious for tunneling, i would consider this as a scum tell for the same reason i'm considering BRO's coaching argument as a scum tell.

What the actual fuck.

They gave you the scum motivation.

[BROseidon]

inb4 pie is unlyncher of skitty btw

Occam's razor says straight up scum buddy.

[BROseidon]

Also NS not bringing up that Pie/Kagami's point about Wicked mafia relative to this game being straight up wrong (especially because NS adamantly refused to believe my case in that game, so he should understand 100% what I'm saying here) further supports the idea that they're buddies.

Also, the tl;dr response to the case against me is, "You used a meta case on me while cherry picking what aspects of my meta you're going to use." The failures to bring into account misdirection, game flow manipulation, and intentionality in particular indicate either at best a lack of familiarity with my meta and at worst an intentional manipulation of data. I can go into more detail when I'm not getting ready for work.

[BROseidon]

i think goat is breadcrumbing that hes scum
obvs he asked a question in the scum pt and hes waiting for his buddy to answer him

The question I asked...was to you, on the board WE share. I really wish your hydra partner had answered me with more than a period instead of reacting like that, because your claim confuses me a bit.

If your only goal is to survive to end game, then I'm sure you can understand why I'd question your motivation...you know, as your neighbor and all.

Daytalk, do you have it

[BROseidon]

I was also in graveyard where bro was IC and did not do a thing and abandoned me to wither of old age.

I told you not to lynch AP!

Then everyone ignored me and did it anyways...

[BROseidon]

Okay, the coaching case on Shos is kind of meh, then.

Still feels wrong with how that whole thing played out (the initial post still feels kind of weird, but that could be me hating being wrong. How quickly I was pushed off it also feels wrong).

Eh, fuck it, I can deal with sorting that later.

[BROseidon]

Not gonna do a full quote-spam because I don't have time, but I'm caught up:

1) piegami's case on me continues to be bad, as explained by multiple other people.

2) ns fucked up. I think I see what's going on, though.

3) TD is getting wagoned for what seems to be stuff that I've seen him do as town.

4) GGG wagon seems slightly better, but not something I could really back.

UNVOTE: Skitty

NachoWis: Who is driving the TD push?

[BROseidon]

NachoWis: Who is driving the TD push?

im the one campaigning that td is scum but nachowis is the catalyst to the wagon actually happening

So yes, I'm asking them which one of them is making that happen

[BROseidon]

1) piegami's case on me continues to be bad, as explained by multiple other people.

lol

I would like to know why anyone thinks the overdefensive attitude in this post comes from a town player

(this isn't strictly true, either, given the only person who actually took the case apart so far afaict is Nacho, and he said he didn't _really_ think the case was bad, but regardless. Om seems to be onto it)

mollie also called it bad.

And calling me "overdefensive" when I addressed your case in pretty much the minimal way possible...

[BROseidon]

I guess you want me to just ignore your case so you can get me mislynched, though.

[BROseidon]

VOTE: johou

[BROseidon]

And calling me "overdefensive" when I addressed your case in pretty much the minimal way possible...

lol

you're either missing or intentionally misrep'ing the point. there is basically no *real* heat on you. you have like 1 vote and it's me. I made my case, no one sans Nacho picked up on it. but that somehow isn't enough for you; you have to continue to make sure everyone in the game knows that not only is my case bad, but that everyone else in the game thinks my case is bad too (which still isn't strictly true). that is overdefensive and reads like you want to be 100% sure to shut down any attempt at pressuring you before it starts.

1) you're missing that your case being shitty is part if my scumread on you.

2) if I ignored your case, you would be here talking about how scummy it is that I'm ignoring you.

[BROseidon]

I want pie to get back to me on this, but I'm fairly confident AA9 is not scum.

2) ... I think I see what's going on, though.

Can I ask you to confirm this? (Binary y/n, you'd know with certainty if you see what skitty's gameplan is).

I know what he's doing (because I've done it before) but not why. I could probably figure the why out, but I don't have a reason to at this point.

[BROseidon]

I'm ignoring you bro.

...What the fuck?

[BROseidon]

You guys see what I am saying now? Cheezus.

Yeah this wagon on you doesn't make any sense.

[BROseidon]

Bro, I don't think that vote was very good!

And I disagree! Shocker

Seriously though can you explain the town-motivation that writing a bad meta case, followed by claiming it's not a meta case, then continuing to tunnel for no discernible reason is? Because I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, whereas the scum-motivation in that is fairly obvious.

[BROseidon]

In a void, null.

The fact that he's getting wagoned for stuff that's otherwise null makes me think he's town.

[BROseidon]

I think your argument is bad.

[BROseidon]

I want pie to get back to me on this, but I'm fairly confident AA9 is not scum.

2) ... I think I see what's going on, though.

Can I ask you to confirm this? (Binary y/n, you'd know with certainty if you see what skitty's gameplan is).

I know what he's doing (because I've done it before) but not why. I could probably figure the why out, but I don't have a reason to at this point.

If you think you see what's going on, then why are you voting Pie? I think he should be the last person you suspect just based on his reaction to the Skitty wagon.

I could easily see scum WKing it.

In fact, I have seen scum WK similar situations (Nacho was that scum!)

[BROseidon]

Tammy is the queen of getting over defensive!

pedit: I think it's the same reason as to why I took aggro early in AoT; someone was under pressure that they didn't want under pressure (initially I thought it was Shos and Skitty, now I'm thinking Shos and maybe someone else), so they cut in and tried to relieve that pressure by being a large presence.

[BROseidon]

I don't think a case on me can only come on scum.

I have a good history of reading mollie correctly, despite the fact that there was a period of a year where she scumread me and wrote cases on me literally every game. Figuring out who on you is scum and who is town being dumb is one of the biggest assets someone can have as town, since it makes being a scum-designated mislynch much more risky for scum.

[BROseidon]

Good thing I'm town then.

Can you ELI5 the TD case for me because so far all I see is shit he did in Xenogears and AA9 OMGUSing him.

[BROseidon]

pedit: I think it's the same reason as to why I took aggro early in AoT; someone was under pressure that they didn't want under pressure (initially I thought it was Shos and Skitty, now I'm thinking Shos and maybe someone else), so they cut in and tried to relieve that pressure by being a large presence.

[BROseidon]

There is also shit he did in xeno blade where HE was scum and SO WERE YOU

Deciding between you or nacho scum was easy in the Lylo but getting booted was very suck

I'm pretty sure he put more effort in Xenoblade.

Also yeah that game was over a year ago...

[BROseidon]

Attack on Titan.

[BROseidon]

My plan after Pasch and F-16 both got wagoned was to apply pressure elsewhere to take it off them, but that ended up backfiring and getting me wagoned too :/

[BROseidon]

There is also shit he did in xeno blade where HE was scum and SO WERE YOU

Deciding between you or nacho scum was easy in the Lylo but getting booted was very suck

I'm pretty sure he put more effort in Xenoblade.

Also yeah that game was over a year ago...

Did you remember his shitty OMGUS about me catching him with 1 minute ISO because hey that was very vivid for me

Yeah, but I remember him having more depth than his tunnel on you.

[BROseidon]

Why are you refusing to vote TD, bro? You said he's null. So he isn't 'town'. Your violent objection for no reason is not very sensible

In a void, null.

The fact that he's getting wagoned for stuff that's otherwise null makes me think he's town.

[BROseidon]

he wasnt tunneling he was OMGUS after i caught him in 5p

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[BROseidon]

@Om You said you don't know Bulba-scum. Therefore your gut read on Bulba equals shit. Like MS said, people townread Bulba-scum all the time.

I'm 1 for 1 on getting bulba-scum right, and I think he's town.

[BROseidon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

everyone and their mother is scumreading Tiph, no thanks. let's do this instead

While I think a Bulba wagon is less bad than a TD wagon, it's still pretty bad :/

[BROseidon]

you absolutely
cannot
in any way shape or form
make a convincing bussing argument
or convincing mislynch argument
based on zero scumflips
and a town who was vigged very early d1

lol

[BROseidon]

I don't think I have an n large enough with any player other than maybe Nacho to be conclusive.

Also I caught bulba-scum pretty early on in that game, even though I couldn't convince anyone to lynch him :/

[BROseidon]

Bro why is bulba town?

The abrasiveness and the consistency in his logic comes from a really town place. From a scum-POV, he's had plenty of chances to pivot on positions in a way that would help him produce less friction around himself, and I know he's capable of doing that effectively from Marvel Avengers Alliance.

[BROseidon]

er

I literally just said I hadn't taken a proper look at the game yet and that it was a quick observation I got from just glancing at it. I want to know exactly what parallels you're seeing in between this game and that game so that I know what to look for when I do sit down and check it properly. -.-

cos I can't feel bro at all inside my head. and what I am saying is that is not a scumtell cos he was the freaking IC in that game and I didn't feel him there either. capisce?

the thing is, I agree with this. I have never said, nor do I think, that him being apathetic is more likely to come from scum. plus, I was _in_ a game where he was town and came across as very apathetic (he actually wasn't, but it def looked like he was).

what I don't like is what he is actually doing while he is here. he's been here, and somewhat engaged, but I haven't liked most of what he's actually did. he is posting, but there is almost no _actual_ scum hunting in his posts.

this, in my eyes, is different from him being apathetic. so I want you to help me look through this and point to where you noticed a lack of scum hunting or relevant content from him in that game; cos I was able to find a bunch of points where he made good observations after glancing at it for so much as 5 minutes, even if he was disengaged with the game, and in the game I had where he was apathetic, he still made good observations there, too, despite not being a presence.

let me know if I'm misinterpreting smth since I'm kind of bad at explaining this

Oh my god it's like reading a mastin-scum post.

You keep saying things that are outright now true, but you're spamming them enough so that you control the narrative and people just sort of... accept them.

[BROseidon]

Bro why is bulba town?

The abrasiveness and the consistency in his logic comes from a really town place. From a scum-POV, he's had plenty of chances to pivot on positions in a way that would help him produce less friction around himself, and I know he's capable of doing that effectively from Marvel Avengers Alliance.

He doesn't seem to be reanalyzing on a lot of things in thread and a lot of his reads seem to be based on conditions being met that don't really matter at all (i.e. Goat read being based on Skitty flipping neighbor OR Goat claiming Sonic).

I think he might think Goat and Skitty are scum together claiming neighbors?

[BROseidon]

FTR: I think TWOH is scum.

I was starting to think that a bit but then the TD wagon completely stalled out and I'm not so sure.

[BROseidon]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

[BROseidon]

I think it's weird that they're calling my Mala case strong when it literally got me lynched.

It's disingenuous and conflates strength of analytics and strength of persuasion. I'm good at one of these things, not the other, and they're conflating the two in a way that makes me look bad.

[BROseidon]

conflates strength of analytics and strength of persuasion.

Why is this scummy?

Because he's using it to contribute to an argument about my proficiency as a player in a way to paint me in a negative light.

Remember that they started the push on me when there was a lot of other stuff going on. I'd just attacked Shos, GGG and Skitty were both under attack as well. Now, a lot of ink is being spilled talking about me in a way that has distracted substantially from Shos - fuck, nobody's talking about him anymore.

I've been saying the whole time that it was a play to move pressure around, and it's worked.

[BROseidon]

most of the logic behind anything BRO said in response to me is structurally incorrect (which I think we agree on). and I think most town players (especially an ultra-logical one like him - this is not meta, but I do think it more strongly applies to him for this reason) would realize this and be able to do better. instead we get this weak-ass "johou is scum" for apparently pushing a bad meta case, despite it not being meta and which he continues to push despite being told it wasn't meta. I think this fits way more in line with scum needing an easy way out of pressure as opposed to any kind of town behavior I can think of.

Holy fucking shit it's meta.

If you were straight up saying, "He's making shallow arguments, therefore he's scum," it wouldn't be meta. There'd be other problems with it (other players who are far more shallow, etc), but it wouldn't be meta.

But the crux of your argument is, "his arguments are shallow and

that's what I've seen BRO-scum do before

." The fact of the matter is that you've brought in my gameplay from multiple other games,

which is meta.

Sure, it's not a "omg he has x tell" meta case, but it's still meta because you're comparing my gameplay here to other games.

[BROseidon]

you called my case "meta" (1091) ever since I first posted my case (936). there is nothing in the case that relates to meta, save for the end where I point out you can do a _lot_ better than this as town - and that was in no way the "crux" of my case. everything else was based on motivation and is valid even without comparing it to anything.

It actually is.

Because what you posted about me could have been said for literally anyone else sans like 5 players.

[BROseidon]

Like, other than not liking the specifics of my push, all of your points about shallowness, etc, apply to

literally this entire game

Including your scumbuddy Shos

[BROseidon]

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

Here's the tl;dr of your argument.

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5. There are players who focus on setup spec and don't have the deepest scum hunting early (god knows I basically can only use associative tells on almost all players). There are players who focus more on working with others than driving their own agenda (you sure as hell would never call NS scum for appealing to Nacho/mollie/etc). There are players who make pedantic arguments (lol Wisdom). Not sure if pedantic is the right word, but specious sure as fuck isn't (and your spamming of it reminds me again of mastin-scum "say this thing over and over again until people believe it").

So your arguments about why I'm scum are all ultimately contingent on #5. That makes it a meta case. It also makes it a meta case that doesn't make sense when the points you bring up are all points that periodically occur in my town game based on the gamestate.

[BROseidon]

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5.

yep you're scum

this is not the first logical step in my argument and you know it.

this doesn't make any fucking sense.

[BROseidon]

(if you want meta, I'm wondering why you haven't focused more on the Skitty and TD wagons or factored it into your reads. you could probably have done some kind of analysis on the Skitty wagon now that he's basically as conftown as an IC, but nothing at all - which fits with the idea of it being a scum driven wagon - and you claim the TD wagon was bad but haven't put any effort into figuring out _why_ it was bad or _who_ the scum on the wagon were. but anyway)

The Skitty wagon is going to be pointless to look at because of the fact that faction-scum would know whether he's with them or not (barring a handful of circumstances that I don't really think are worth factoring in here). Scum would have the choice whether to WK or push, since the wagon was policy-bait.

The "scum are more or less likely to push a policy wagon" argument is dumb because scum have both options open, and will just choose whatever argument they'd make as town.

[BROseidon]

TD wagon is an interesting case because I wanted to let it get to L-2 or 3 before doing anything, but the way it fizzled off after I said I didn't like it makes me really uncomfortable.

[BROseidon]

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5.

yep you're scum

this is not the first logical step in my argument and you know it.

Not what I said, not germane to what I said.

[BROseidon]

I also think you misread the fact that I didn't really mind getting lynched at that point because you/muffin could bus for towncred+it removed ferry/cabd from the game.

[BROseidon]

my case on him was exactly what I said. the first 4 points were all based on motivation. they had nothing to do with meta. the meta only served to further back up what I was saying.

But your case doesn't work without the contextualization because everything you brought up were behaviors that are neither scum-motivated nor unique to scum.

Or are you too fucking scum/stupid to get that. Because the answer is one of the two you prick.

[BROseidon]

i am reading the exchange between pieguy and bro and the attacks against bro are very strong

So what you're saying is that I should keep saying false shit over and over to get you to believe me.

[BROseidon]

Also there's a really easy way to read Nacho, but you have to give him space until end of day 1 at least, sometimes a little longer.

[BROseidon]

(which is why I refrained on commenting on the TD wagon earlier, but the way that wagon fizzled makes me think that Nacho's town)

[BROseidon]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

[BROseidon]

Also, last thing to BRO:

What do you think of Bulbazak saying that he demonstrated time and time again why what AA9 was saying was blatantly false when he'd done literally nothing of that sort before that point in his ISO?

I'm gonna fact-check this when I have more time, since I don't remember this at all. Would do it now, but AP's on his way to go hang out.

[BROseidon]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

It was the Sonic/Pacman claim that made Bulba believe they were more likely to be neighbors, not less.

Too ridiculous to be made up theory?

It's sort of like the scum are on/off the survivor wagon logic. Someone could get to either conclusion with reasonable assumptions (meaning scum can fake whatever their town self would do their easily), so trying to get actionable conclusions from it is pointless.

[BROseidon]

I should be the one asking you why you never responded to this

I know it wasn't worded in a particularly serious manner but that doesn't mean that I was entirely un-serious about it.

(granted I kind of doubt

all

of aa9-dn-bulba could be scum together, but 2 out of 3 isn't implausible. I still need to look at dn and bulba interactions but dn <-> aa9 and aa9 <-> bulba make sense to me as of right now)

anyway, to respond more directly, I think the case is plausible and has a lot of really good logic behind it

DN and Bulba fit. AA9 has done absolutely nothing bad and so far does not even resemble a scumread on my end.

How many games have you played with AA9?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: espy

I also like the part where I get wagoned every fucking game, because apparently I'm an easy scum-designated mislynch.

[BROseidon]

Here's your fucking response you goddamn prick: Nacho also missed the point I was making.

Let me try to break this down into very simple, bite size pieces for you to understand, so that neither you nor anybody else can fucking misrep me again.

You made initial points that

in a void, had no bearing on me being scum.

Each individual point was something that

isn't

alignment indicative, and if you were going to argue that those things were alignment indicative, you're either scum or absolutely horrible at mafia, because, as I've brought up, there are plenty of examples of those behaviors coming from town (since you're arguing that they come from scum).

Then you brought in meta, which I'll refer to as "contextualization" if it makes it any clearer. You tied the argument together with, "In the context of how I would expect BRO to play as town (definition of meta), this is off, thereby making him scum." Without that, as I've just said, the case... doesn't really exist. It's like trying to say "p5 is lurking, therefore he's scum," when town lurk to the level that he's lurking... fairly frequently. He does this shit every game.

I think his points about point-depth and how I see things differently than most other people and have trouble communicating what I'm seeing are fairly on point. I'm not sure if it's a depth or style thing, but the fact that I can see confirmed scum (like, literally PR-confirmed scum) while the rest of the town derps around wondering whether it's confirmed scum or not is 10/10 infuriating.

[BROseidon]

Also I haven't had a chance to read what happened with the TD wagon. Something bizarre happened there given how easily that wagon stalled out.

[BROseidon]

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

Here's the tl;dr of your argument.

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5. There are players who focus on setup spec and don't have the deepest scum hunting early (god knows I basically can only use associative tells on almost all players). There are players who focus more on working with others than driving their own agenda (you sure as hell would never call NS scum for appealing to Nacho/mollie/etc). There are players who make pedantic arguments (lol Wisdom). Not sure if pedantic is the right word, but specious sure as fuck isn't (and your spamming of it reminds me again of mastin-scum "say this thing over and over again until people believe it").

So your arguments about why I'm scum are all ultimately contingent on #5. That makes it a meta case. It also makes it a meta case that doesn't make sense when the points you bring up are all points that periodically occur in my town game based on the gamestate.

A huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup speculation has scum motivation because it allows scum to post without giving away alignment-relevant information. Scumhunting is something that scum are less likely to do well as opposed to town because a town's motivation to post is to catch and kill scum, and scumhunting is the primary method of moving towards this purpose. This is a general tell. This tell does not need meta in order to make it valid.

Consistent attempts to appeal to other players is scummy because it gains you friends, and friends are less likely to lynch you. This has more scum motivation than town motivation again because scum's primary motivation is to survive while town's primary motivation is to hunt and kill scum. Still doesn't need meta to make it valid.

Shallow arguments show scum motivation because scum are, in general, expected to produce something. The shallower an argument is, the easier it is to fake while the deeper an argument is, the harder it is to fake. Because a town's every moment should be guided by finding and killing scum, their strongest moments should be in their arguments and in their searching as opposed to everything else: weak searching implies primary motivation being centered around something else.

All of those things can stand on their own. Adding meta to these points is important since they are all general scum trends and tailoring them specifically to a player can make these things stronger or weaker: that doesn't mean that making a case based on these points is meta and it sure as hell doesn't mean they need meta to stand.

And there's a reason I don't sheep Nacho on reads. His theory and analytics are...

None of this parses out scum from early game or incompetent townie.

Also not all townies play only to find scum. Plenty of town play to get townread and then sheep their townreads (ns is still a player that exists). I made the mistake of playing only to find scum without regard to how I was read, and it led to me getting mislynched pretty much every game.

[BROseidon]

Esp votes and pushes Bro. The wagon starts to pick up. While you may have started the Bro wagon, Esp is the driving force behind it, and that point is not inconsistent with what I said in the above post, since he's hiding behind your reasoning while doing so.

An important thing to note here is that if Esp is cult and not group scum it basically guarantees that one of {ooba, piegami} are group scum.

[BROseidon]

Dude you're not getting what Bulba is saying.

Like at all.

[BROseidon]

Bro, tell me that I'm not the only one that can read the current and ripples of the game state.

I'm also seeing it, which means probably nobody else is because fuck if anyone else ever sees what I see.

[BROseidon]

yes I am

Bulba claims Esp is the driving force behind the wagon. if he is, he was able to get like 1 vote and that was it. I'm the one who created the wagon, built it up to that point, made basically _all_ the noise about the scum read on you, and convinced Esp in the first place.

I could 100% see it if he was saying that Esp was _a_ driving force behind the wagon, or that he was just scum on the wagon. but he explicitly said Esp was _the_driving force behind the wagon, which is incorrect.

it's funny you say I'm "not getting" what Bulba is saying when, being scum, it's more likely I'm just BS'ing here. amirite?

p-edit: @BRO

Okay.

So why did the wagon not start moving until

Esp pushed it

. It stalled on your one vote for a while, but Esp magically made the wagon a viable wagon for the day.

(In b4 "BUT IT'S MY WAGON")

[BROseidon]

Esp voted Bro. He used your reasoning and pushed hard. Attention turned hard and fast onto Bro. That's not a coincidence.

this is false. I literally just told you why Esp pushing BRO hard had nothing to do with why there was more attention placed onto him. half the people who want to vote BRO do so just because they want the day to end or, in MS's case, as a counterwagon to you.

bullshit.

[BROseidon]

I see ns posting elsewhere on site, but I don't think ns is next level enough to do what he did.

[BROseidon]

Also, last thing to BRO:

What do you think of Bulbazak saying that he demonstrated time and time again why what AA9 was saying was blatantly false when he'd done literally nothing of that sort before that point in his ISO?

I'm gonna fact-check this when I have more time, since I don't remember this at all. Would do it now, but AP's on his way to go hang out.

Did you ever fact-check or did you forget because I'm a horrible mafia player not worth your time?

Too ridiculous to be made up theory?

It's sort of like the scum are on/off the survivor wagon logic. Someone could get to either conclusion with reasonable assumptions (meaning scum can fake whatever their town self would do their easily), so trying to get actionable conclusions from it is pointless.

This reasoning sucks or you're communicating it wrong.
Try again?

1) Completely forgot that I'd posted that. Will look into it now.

2) The point is that it's a WIFOM issue. People have weird theory beliefs that don't hold any water, but they still stick to them really hard, regardless of alignment. This is one of those cases.

[BROseidon]

I agree arc is town but i also confirmed that nothing she says is worth anything.

i can never read bulba so im not even trying

You can happily leave this task to me. I always catch scum bulba. and He is scum!!

You do know that you were simply a no information kill in that sole game you've played with scum me, right?

He literally went after every single person who voted skitty for survival claim. There is nothing wrong in lynching survivors at any point of game which is much better than lynching a townie on day1 and moreover lynching anyone who claims as survivor on day1 will avoid scum using such claims as gambit. And Skitty didn't needed bulba defence, they had hardly three votes in their wagon. 3 votes is basically nothing in a large game and they were not anywhere close to get lynched.

I've explained this already. I believed that scum would be trying to hide on PL wagons, and it would be easier to spot scum jumping on the Skitty wagon than the UT wagon, since there was a large town motivation to lynch UT, but not Skitty. I gave up on this theory when you joined the wagon. Funny enough, you quote my responses out of order in an attempt to make it look like I was being inconsistent, rather than realizing the error of the theory.

And another important thing to notice was that in his post #48, he was supporting policy lynch and later he defended skitty saying that it was a policy lynch. this indeed a double mind play and only scum plays in this manner.

Actually, I said that the PL lynch on Skitty was "the worst one", indicating that I thought there was a better PL: UT.

@AA9:

You I'm just going to forget it being a scum claim and look at that wagon later. There's definitely scum jumping on the survivor claim.

Chill Bluba, Why are you being so defensive about votes on Scum claim. Its just 4 votes.. You should remember that it require 13 for a lynch.

Placation. She wants me off her back, even though I'm not scumreading her at this point.

And this whole UT cult thingy.. UT, Why are you doing this so early.

This is fake and is meant to look like she's town asking questions. However, notice how the tone doesn't feel natural.

P-edit: GGG, why aren't you voting Major then?

@Major: Not really.

This is another ridiculously scummy post from him. I had same reaction of everyone else in game for UT claim. How could he say my opinion is fake and it has come from a scum mind? I never felt like I was in pressure by him to be out of my back. Here he made statements that don't exist. How does he know what is my tone? My natural play is asking questions, I always does and he know this already yet he twisted my post to make it look like it is coming from scum mind. He have no knowledge of me being scum and there is no way he could scum read just because I voted skitty for their claim.

It's funny that you said you had the same reaction to UT when you clearly didn't. The reaction to UT was either asking a dayvig to take care of him, voting him, or refusing to vote him in fear that he was a jester. You, however, enter the game and say "UT, why do you do this so early?" which is a nonsensical and useless question that you could not have possibly hoped for UT to answer. You want to know how I can know your tone? Simple. It comes down to how you ask your question. Your question was meant to be seen, not answered, which means it was for appearances only. That's why it read so fake. And don't pull that BS about me having no knowledge of you as scum. You know better.

Also, I'm not going to let AA9-scum skate by just because she's overdefensive as town. Her response was all wrong, Wisdom.

This post tells that he is using my meta against me to support his scum read on me. this is exactly what I said in my post earlier. the players who know how to read me through my strengths will use it against me. And bulba did the same!!!!!!

Actually, I'm saying the exact opposite and telling Wisdom that his meta read is BS.

If I had to choose between which 2 survivor claims I believe, it'd be Major.

He defended skitty when they claimed survior and now he is okay lynching major but not skitty. How is major survivor claim is any different to skitty.

Actually I'm saying the opposite: That if only 1 survivor claim was accurate, I'd believe Major's over Skitty's.

You're really bad at misrepping my posts. Do you want to try again?

Also see the post #329, post # 936
He repeatedly said same things over and over again. My reactions and posts are just my response and they are no different how i do things when i am town. Instead giving me benefit of doubt, he read me as scum like he knew i am scum which is not possible unless he have access to my role pm. This is another solid reason to see that he is scum and his objective was to get rid of me.

Did you just admit to being scum?

Scum me plays very safe game than town.

You don't have proof. You have opinions, perceptions, meta, gut reads perhaps, but you don't have proof.
I thought you might actually be onto something even though your ISO looks like the pilot of a cheap sitcom, but you're just talking out of your ass some more aren't you?

Then why don't you vote her?

To make a TD vote more enticing



He would also make a very good policy lynch regardless



So, I think it is better for all if we lynch him

I mean,

He's scum
Even if he isn't

That's okay

This is horrible reasoning.

He doesn't work for the town, he's someone the scum doesn't need to kill.
It's a guy with the passive ability "you do not count against the mafia's win condition"

He has a detrimental role, and the only guy we know for sure is not gonna flip town.

He also has the passive ability of "you do not count against the town's win condition". Just saying.

The way AA9 talked to me is not coming from a town place. She tried to placate me and then went with a fake question to UT to make it look like she was town scumhunting. Nothing about that exchange was natural and coming from a town mindset.

So if we choose not to lynch a claimed survivor who has committed to vote the largest wagon. We get to Lylo and the survivor votes the towniest person so the remaining scum jump on to win. How is this not be the outcome? And if this is the outcome how is it not better for us to lynch now.

Again, this is voting for policy reasons. If Skitty is a survivor, then her only goal is to stay alive, which means it doesn't matter who she votes.

Personally, since survivors share the wincon, I have no problem with that and would instead make sure that she votes in our favor.

If you think she's scum for the claim, then that's one thing. However, if you are trying to lynch her because she's a survivor, which it sounds like you are, then that is very scummy, since you are focusing on a useless wagon over a useful wagon on an anti-town role, or in lieu of actual scumhunting.

P-edit: @Major: I don't see the contradiction between the two roles.

I like arc angels bulba case. In addition to her case I went back and Iso'd and didn't like this, how will he ever make someone vote for him.

Solid scumposting based on BS reasoning and nitpicking. Might still be scum with AA9, but this does make me doubt my read a little.

I also realized I was confusing Skitty posting with AA9. They're both bad and filled with BS, though.

what are your thoughts on 1520? Kagami thinks his focus on TD feels extremely narrow; he claims the wagon on TD makes no sense, but doesn't put up a complaint with any of the people on the wagon or divine a sensible explanation for it. I don't like it for basically the same reason, and also bc the logic behind it ~again~ isn't very good - it's entirely bc of TD doing things that match one town game, with no attempt to divine motivation for any of it. on top of that there's absolutely no interest in all the meta stuff everyone else is bringing up that points to TD being scum.

I don't see how you're attacking Bro for lack of logic and narrow focus in a post that simply asks Sonic to explain his TD case more. It feels like you're really stretching to justify your Bro push.

You don't have proof. You have opinions, perceptions, meta, gut reads perhaps, but you don't have proof.
I thought you might actually be onto something even though your ISO looks like the pilot of a cheap sitcom, but

you're just talking out of your ass some more aren't you?

@adorkable. The spam posting is terrible, the vote on me is terrible, and our original interaction was terrible, though to be fair I was only reading him as scum for the middle bit originally.

@Mentalsomnic, you sir, may take your “lack of reason” and shove it up your ass. I think the claim is fake, I think skitties posting since then has been fake, I’m not buying this reaction test BS. This is a caught scum trying to backpeddle, hard, and it needs lynched.

@Everyone, I'd have loved to see an arc angel lynch, but no one but me can see that, and I see the way the wind is turning. Johou threatened his scary fakedayvig, ya'll got cold feet, and now nachodisdumb has provided an alternative wagon for you to sheep on. Congratu-fuckin-lations. I'm going to eat this "bullet" now so that you idiots can get back to lynching actual scum if you're capable of remembering that's what skitty is.

VOTE: skitty

So, just for reference, when skitty flips scum we are speedlynching johou for that BS fake dayvig, right?

^ i don't like any of these posts. (bolded mine)

What don't you like?

just by reading page 60:
1. AA9 is town. no fucking way scum would invest so much power in such a short time in order to do what she did there, IMO. even me.
2. dramopnic is scum and he's with bulba. see how he keeps saying 'you ahve no proof'? proof is a word that means FACT. if I don't have the proof, then it is still a fact, but I just cannot prove it. as in, "pythagoras was right" "prove itf" against "pythagoras was wrong" "convince me".

Still scum. I don't like how he's stretching on the Dramonic point. It's like he senses that the tide is turning against Dram, and he wants to start laying the foundation to jump on him later.

I was hoping to finish catching up before I went to bed, but it looks like I'll have to leave the rest until I'm back on Monday. There will probably be over 100 pages by then...

On to page 65.

Wischo: Here's the Bulba post where he dissects AA9s case. I think his rebuttal to the case is on point (i.e., the parts where he talks about his past behavior), even if some of the assumptions he was coming from I don't agree with. Also, his stuff about why AA9 is scum is also the sort of thing I can see town doing (and being wrong about) because of AA9s weird play style.

[BROseidon]

Something something I told you so can we now fucking wagon someone who's actually scummy.

JTST, Espy, and Ooba are all good candidates.

[BROseidon]

Also Shos. He's also a good candidate.

[BROseidon]

remember quickness mafia? town reads based on neighborhoods should _always_ be reevaluated, and I think you should know this. if you're really going to push a read entirely based on stuff from the QT, fucking lol

...

[BROseidon]

Saying that a mason in a bastard game means absolutely nothing is pretty fucking terrible

[BROseidon]

Where the fuck did this broseidon wagon come from?

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

As opposed to all the other wagons he's been trying to start and drive to end the day? Which, you know, has been his focus since he entered this mess of a game because a 100+ page Day 1 is anti-town as fuck?

Dat misrep though

[BROseidon]

Huh, actually not a misrep. I thought I'd been his first vote, note his fourth.

[BROseidon]

Where the fuck did this broseidon wagon come from?

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

As opposed to all the other wagons he's been trying to start and drive to end the day? Which, you know, has been his focus since he entered this mess of a game because a 100+ page Day 1 is anti-town as fuck?

Dat misrep though

Actually, on this point.

What you said was non-sequitorial to what I said. Well, not non-sequitorial, but not on-point. Other than the TD wagon, the wagons he was hopping around were coming out of nowhere and pushes that weren't going to go through (Belles, WisCho). So saying that he was going to my wagon as part of a larger "let me end the day ASAP because it's anti-town as fuck for a day 1 to go this long" is bullshit given the set of votes he'd placed prior to jumping on my wagon (which was, at the time, still not the largest wagon).

[BROseidon]

[post expressing shock about the flip instead of scum hunting further because that's what all the cool kids are doing]

In all seriousness the flip doesn't really change my opinions about anything.

[BROseidon]

The fact that ZZZX has done the most scum hunting since the flip is disconcerting.

Can we talk about how scummy piegami are some more? It's basically my favorite topic this game.

[BROseidon]

Under normal circumstances, their pointing out of the crumb should have derailed the lynch.

Context is king, though.

[BROseidon]

So is everything Espy's done this game, so that would be par for the course.

[BROseidon]

Dude I didn't see the cop crumb. I knew he was crumbing something based on his interaction with nacho because I did something similar with syryana in deaths diner.

I figured he would claim and was waiting to respond to that.

[BROseidon]

Although I guess it would make sense that you'd misrep me to push a shitty case, since that's what you've been doing all game.

[BROseidon]

I figured he would claim and was waiting to respond to that.

you thought that after they claimed, at L-1 or whatever, you'd be able to help derail the lynch?

you literally just said that us pointing out the cop crumb at L-1 - which is basically equivalent to them claiming cop themselves -wouldn't derail the lynch in this context. it is clear you agreed that nothing would have derailed the lynch at that point. squirm much?


I also think your accusation of "misrep" is *again* out of place. you seem to think I'm scum who's deliberately misrep'ing you for whatever reason, when scum-me would have no way of knowing you didn't actually see the cop crumb (and would thus be more likely to just be fake scumhunting here).

I thought that after they claimed, people (myself included) would be able to make an informed decision. I didn't know what the crumb was; for all I knew, they were crumbing a confirmable role like vig or IC. All I knew was that a crumb was there from the way NS was pointing Nacho to a specific game.

The reason context is key here is that the WK/push choice is one where scum could viably take both paths, and (like just about every other piece of theory bullshit that we've gone through this game) any given player would, as scum, have to choose the path that they would be expected to take as town. Given that you'd already claimed to have seen the crumb in full earlier, you couldn't suddenly not see the crumb. A scum-you would have had to have, given your earlier posts, continue to WK the slot. The context comment was in response to Bulba arguing that your WK makes you town (the net point is null, and your WK isn't why I think you're scum)

And scum you having no way of knowing that I didn't see what the crumb was somehow changes you putting words into my mouth... how, exactly? You're arguing past my point - I'm saying that you're extending my words beyond their literal (and intended) meaning in such a way to make me look worse. I explicitly said I didn't know exactly what ns was crumbing, and you tried to push me into a binary answer. The fact that someone could see that there was a crumb but not care to find out exactly what it was doesn't seem to register (something else that's off, given that town wouldn't have much of a reason on day 1 to figure out the exact crumb over back off the slot).

[BROseidon]

VOTE: Ooba

[BROseidon]

Also.

FUCK YOU PIE FOR BEING A FUCKING MORON. I WAS RIGHT YOU ASSHOLE.

[BROseidon]

i demand an explanation for ooba vote

JTST was town pushing me, so one of the followups of Espy/Ooba have a very high probability of being scum.

I don't really like either of their play individually, either, for a variety of reasons. I think I've talked more about Espy at this point; Ooba's been sitting on the outside of everything not really ruffling feathers or gathering attention. It looks a lot like what I did in Xenoblade and 165.

[BROseidon]

So two Groups are likely here. This works with major minors survivor claim of saying he wins with just mafia and town. I'm going to assume wolves rather than a serial killer.

Given that Shos flipped just "mafia," I find straight-up multiball to be unlikely.

SK would make sense. Also, there should be a cult floating around. Speaking of which, we should vig goat in a few days because... ~reasons~

[BROseidon]

My only argument against vigging p5 is that he's been V/LA, and I can normally read him pretty well when he's actually playing.

[BROseidon]

Wisdom get the fuck off Bulba already.

Like holy shit you're being a stubborn prick.

[BROseidon]

Bulba's town, get over it.

He can die after he gets inevitably culted.

[BROseidon]

Because it's obvious.

Mason in a bastard game isn't entirely meaningless.

His play has been cogent and makes a shitton of sense.

[BROseidon]

He can die after he gets inevitably culted.

and why are you assuming this didn't already happen?

I'd assume a cult leader would have gone for Goat or MS first.

[BROseidon]

So why vote bulba over MS? If you're arguing that they aren't masons, why not get rid of the louder more annoying slot first?

[BROseidon]

So you think ms fake claimed mason because... ~reasons~?

He's not DGB-dumb

[BROseidon]

So you think ms fake claimed mason because... ~reasons~?

He's not DGB-dumb

I WILL NOT STAND FOR DGB PUT DOWNS IN A GAME THAT SHE CAN'T EVEN RESPOND TO AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR

Oh whatever. She's the one who fucking did it.

[BROseidon]

ugh.

would you say that you've put me in a position similar to the one you are currently in, recently? simple y/n will suffice.

Also now that Touhou is over, I can talk about this more.

In Touhou, I was masons with pieguy. And MS thought he had a guilty on pieguy and tried to get him lynched D2, making me out myself and pie as masons.

So pie asked him here, quite obviously, if he (MS) is in the reverse position (pie was pushing Bulba).

MS denied this.

They're not fucking masons. He could answer yes here and pass the message to pie. It would stop him from pushing Bulba. He said no.

Uh...

That's technically a mod-killable offense...

[BROseidon]

Gonna prod dodge for now. Will have the time to get to this in a few days.

[BROseidon]

Would explain one of the shots on SB, and would explain the timing.

The question is now, is wischo scum?

No

[BROseidon]

Ryu Hazuki - Town Mason Cop

Does ooba's sanity reveal upon flip? Or is he confirmed Sane?

Like the Insane Doc dude

FYI:

we receive ooba's result

The result is Dramonic: Not Town

Any other results?

[BROseidon]

Also, Espy, what would tammollie have targeted you with? She would have had to perform the NK, and yet:

1) You are alive
2) They flipped BP, which I'm gonna assume can counter PGO (which makes me wonder what that "rocket blast" that killed them was. Strongman from a Vig/SK, maybe?)
3) Ooba died, and Ooba makes a lot of sense for an NK given out the stuff with Adorkable played out.

VOTE: KBW

I don't think there's a straight-up survivor in this game given the likelihood of a cult. I think it's a fakeclaim Major Minor got for an SK.

[BROseidon]

did you read my comments post lynch cause it seems like you are posting shit bro.

Yeah, I did.

That doesn't disprove the the presence of a cult, and is far less evidence against a cult that UT's flip is in favor of a cult. Fuck, you could actually be a cultist with no access to a PT for all I know, or have just lied and turned into a mason-cultist.

[BROseidon]

Also you didn't answer my question about additional results.

[BROseidon]

I think it's a fakeclaim Major Minor got for an SK.

i'd also like to point out that if Major Minor is magically in another world, an SK, he'd be responsible for the shos & Mollie kills... a very helpful SK

Also one that has to die.

[BROseidon]

And @bro: #Bastard

Doesnt explain Ooba being dead.

[BROseidon]

I think it's a fakeclaim Major Minor got for an SK.

lol what

do you know what fakeclaims are? they have to be town, not something else anti-town that town will want to lynch

I could totally see an SK getting a survivor fakeclaim in a bastard game.

[BROseidon]

lets make some survivor puns while bro attempts to derail dram wagon that will inevitably happen cause i am not gambiting today

I'm fine lynching dram. I just don't think he's priority #1 right now.

[BROseidon]

even if the mod wants to troll and give such a fakeclaim because bastard and all

the sk just wont use it and will claim something else. he would have to be dumb to claim survivor.

Why?

Makes it pretty easy to justify being around.

[BROseidon]

youre not this fucking dumb. survivor is anti-town. Town doesn't let them live. if an sk wants to live he will claim something town.

Except that's what the town is doing right now.

[BROseidon]

well where's the executioner

they should pewpew dram

This. That way MS can shut the fuck up.

[BROseidon]

Because survivors get killed before Lylo which an sk has to get to.

So then why did Major Minor claim at all in the first place?

[BROseidon]

"Major Minor isn't an SK because survivors have to die before LyLo regardless" is a valid argument except for the part where survivors have to not die under any circumstance, so a survivor claiming such is directly playing against their own win con.

pedit: giving out the kill first is what I would do if I were a scum compulsive inventor. Least likely to hit town early on in most circumstances.

[BROseidon]

yet you're not voting dram

What part of "not #1 priority" is hard for you to understand.

[BROseidon]

I think everyone's missing that this is a bastard game and cop sanity could be insane or paranoid.

Which is why I was asking for a 2nd result to compare it with.

[BROseidon]

yet you're not voting dram

What part of "not #1 priority" is hard for you to understand.

so a possible sk is priority over mafia because..?

Removes a NK and the scum team's already crippled AF.

[BROseidon]

Also why does everyone keep ignoring the fact that Ooba's dead when talking about how tammollie died.

[BROseidon]

Removes a NK and the scum team's already crippled AF.

Adding to this:

An SK is getting less and less likely to hit scum. Unless we think they can hit scum a THIRD time in a row, with 3 scum already dead, the best time to lynch him would literally be now.

[BROseidon]

except kbw isn't an sk

Here's what we have for confirmed not-town:

2 Lyncher/Lynchees
Scumteam of some size

In addition, we have a dayvig of some kind that, based on the ZZZX shot, is probably town. Dram, regardless of alignment, also had at least 1 daykill to pass off to someone else.

And we have an unclaimed NK floating around. Given the likelihood of a cult from UT's role (no way in fucking hell is the only cult mechanic a reactive town neg-util PR. That's just fucking dumb and pointless), do you think that NK is more likely to be coming from ANOTHER vig (we already have one during the day) or an SK?

And then given the likelihood of an SK, do you then ALSO think that we have a survivor on top of all that?

Yeah no, I'm not buying that we have a survivor. Maybe you can argue the cult assumption, but as soon as we have a flipped cultist that'll be out the window.

[BROseidon]

Wisdom you need to talk to Nacho about my understanding of theory and ability to parse mechanics.

[BROseidon]

or there are aliens instead of sk and that's where the extra kill comes from

3/3 would make sense (or even 3/2 or 4/2 if you had severe enough PR skews), but then the aliens would be playing kind of dumb (unless the tammollie shot was trying to hit a townie or 3rd party)

[BROseidon]

This is a little short, because hungry and food, but I want to say a few things before eating.

A thought occurs.

What if I'm a PGO that shoots first?

Are you bulletproof?

ffs

VOTE: dram

go squawk, owl boy

Sonic, get off of Dram. Ooba investigated Major Minor n1 to check for sanity, just like I told him to. Unless you think that KBW is town, not a survivor, then Dram is conf. town.

Reminder to self to continue from page 163.

I don't have words to express how this makes me feel about my interaction with ms/om.

[BROseidon]

Ooba investigated Major Minor n1 to check for sanity, just like I told him to. Unless you think that KBW is town, not a survivor, then Dram is conf. town.

Ok. In that case, the executioner shoots kbw. We see what he is and we confirm ooba sanity, therefore confirming dramonic alignment and whoever else he investigated.

kbw is most likely a survivor and has to go anyway, so that works

I like this plan.

[BROseidon]

alright, i've been pretty vague on my role up until know. i feel you won't want to kill me once you learn it....

I am Maya Fey, mystic-in-training. I am a survivor (I've been on trial too many times to count.... fortunately, Nick was there every time to save me.) But he's not here now, at leas not that I know of....

I have the ability to channel the dead town members, and manipulate them to an extent. I can talk to them and relay messages from them here. theories on potential mafia, new ideas... I can let you in on them.

I also have the ability to use their spirits to do my bidding in a few ways, one of which I already used.

This is too broken to be real.

[BROseidon]

Droog is scum, so is deathnote. Dram is probably town, so is espeo.VOTE: droog. Droog is the lynch today, executioner shoots KBW tonight.

DN is scum who shot his partner, or...

[BROseidon]

I don't think there's a straight-up survivor in this game given the likelihood of a cult. I think it's a fakeclaim Major Minor got for an SK.

I still believe KBW is most likely a survivor. And even if she's SK, the NK's are providing us more scumflips than the lynches and the scumteam should be worried enough to try and resolve that themselves.

The issue is that those kills on scum are going to go away. The highest possible PV is to lynch the SK after he kills the entire scum team. Or we can take shooting 2 scum for us and cut future potential losses.

[BROseidon]

You caught me mid-post saying that your PR is actually feasible for 3rd party. No way that should would be on town, though

[BROseidon]

This entire game is fucking retarded.

Holy shit.

Like, I know I draw scum reads all the time for no real reason, but this is fucking bullshit.

[BROseidon]

Like, "OMG, BRO is so scum for that shos scumread"

"no wait, bro's now scum for this reason"

"no shit, bro's now scum for this"

Like wtf am I supposed to do with my game if even when I catch scum I'm called scum any was

[BROseidon]

KBW tell pie to go fuck himself with a serrated knife or womeotha.

GOd ddammmitt Nacho where are you

[BROseidon]

Fucl O vant brrathe agaim

[BROseidon]

So whyh wouik UTs rile edxist?

[BROseidon]

I need to go. Anxiety attack.

Shit that took me forever to get right.

[BROseidon]

Can the dayvig remove winter skies or bro please?

I understand that your last two shots were to remove VIs and the whole town appreciates that, but it appears that town sucks at removing scum via lynch so having some instant deaths would be more productive,

With love,

Mason

Fuck you.

Fuck you to hell you fucking asshole. I hope you fucking die in a goddamn fire.

[BROseidon]

I would like to see if the dead are correct and bro is mafia.


Dayvig please listen to confirmed town and kill BROseidon please.

Thx

You too.

Tell piegami to literally shove a knife up his asshole. Tell that to every person in that dead thread.

[BROseidon]

I'm down for Bro kill.

You also.

[BROseidon]

Every time I open this game it's triggering an anxiety attack because I'm being super transparent and throwing my thoughts out there, and so far they've been pretty damn good.

And I still get scumread. Like in just about every other town game I have.

I don't know what the fuck I do that gets me scumread. I'm almost convinced that it's a conspiracy against me at this point because it seems that unless I'm literally an IC I'm going to get mislynched every game.

If I can't keep it under control, I'm replacing out. This game is getting to Tales-level of bad on my emotional health, and I can't have that right now with all the other stress I have in my life.

[BROseidon]

It's not just about this game.

It's 1.5 years on this site and not being able to improve my game as a whole.

[BROseidon]

If anything I'm worse now than I was when I started playing.

Do you know how shitty that feels?

[BROseidon]

I don't think it is. If being good were only about catching scum, I would straight-up be one of the best players on this site and barely ever lose. Catching scum is only so useful if you can actually get them lynched; I've had a ton of games where I've caught most/all of the entire scumteam, but gotten mislynched and had town go on to completely throw it.

And yeah it's easy to blame the rest of the town then, but I could also have won those games if I'd been more charismatic/likable/whatever the fuck it is that gets people town read and gets people to listen to you.

[BROseidon]

I have been.

It's not getting better.

I'm caught in this weird place where I know my EQ an empathy are super low and I'm really bad at things that involving those traits, but I can't improve them (at least at an acceptable rate), and it's hurting other aspects of my life as well.

[BROseidon]

Oh fuck off.

How many scum have you caught this game? I'm pretty sure I was the only one who caught Shos.

Also, I was scum in Xenoblade.