Butcher, Baker, Pastry-Maker Mafia - Dogged

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: Cheetory

Might just as well do this alphabetically for a start ; also, I have no idea who this person even is, so time to figure it out.

[Shadow Dancer]

So topp/fillings is now official terminology ;D Success !

[Shadow Dancer]

Moin moin,

i think i'm gonna stay away from the kalimar wagon for the time being, L-6 is a bit too close to lynch for page two imo

Why so hesitant ?

VOTE: Kali

The higher the splash, the nicer the ripples...

[Shadow Dancer]

So therefore,

Vote: Shadow Dancer

Why did you refuse to be arbitrary?
This was the shortest rvs ever.

Interressant...

Was it your vote or mine which ended, according to you, the RVS?

[Shadow Dancer]

Moin moin,

i think i'm gonna stay away from the kalimar wagon for the time being, L-6 is a bit too close to lynch for page two imo

Why so hesitant ?

VOTE: Kali

The higher the splash, the nicer the ripples...

what if five people simulpost and we accidentally hammer him, wouldn't you feel like super foolish?

You mean, if 6 people simulpost, all vote kali, and all do not check the newest posts before finally sanding in their vote ?!

[Shadow Dancer]

Mal sehen...
I don't really feel the Toogle waggon so far... Untrod is beginning to at very least mildly annoy me.

VOTE: Untrod
for the time being.

I really hope this game will have made some major strides forward till Monday (which is when I am planning to catch up)...

[Shadow Dancer]

Los geht's
Okay, for a start: Who is Shaft? A Kise alt? Or some one else entirely?

[Shadow Dancer]

If Shaft is indeed Kise, I want him to elaborate on his Reck read ; and ideally explain how he refutes the evidence brought up against his case by Reck.

Reck, are those games you listed in chronological (or any other) order?

[Shadow Dancer]

guys i think i'm gonna claim ok

i'm gonna do it, i'm really gonna do it!!

What reaction exactly did you hop to provoke with these posts, Nik? Claiming miller on day one, why haven't you just done it right away?

[Shadow Dancer]

I don't think his awfulness is necessarily alignment indicative

why do you?

Wirklich?
Now I am curious. After you were so wordy about it, what do you think it was indicative of, and why did you consider it necessary to point it out ?

[Shadow Dancer]

Verwirrend.

Shaft, could you just not speak in tongues and gibberish, please. I still have no idea what you are trying to get across (leniently assuming that you are actually trying to so far), and I don't think I will keep my patience about it much longer.

[Shadow Dancer]

Rein ins Vergnügen!!!!

Ja, lass uns Spaß haben !

p-edit: yessss now the wagon is righteous

Vote: Shadow Dancer.

So you depend on others' approval before you stick to a waggon? How about any reasoning of your own for a change ? This is the second time you vote me following some one else.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shaft, so you cannot actually provide us with an additional game that would back up your claim that you can read Reck like a book?

Reck, what would you reply if I pointed out to you that obviously in your latest scum game with Kise he could actually read you rightly as scum, and that therefore his claim, although obviously suffering from massive confirmation bias concerning the sample size, cannot be regarded as completely ungrounded?

[Shadow Dancer]

@mod: Has Cheetory been prodded? He only has three posts, and the last one's from last week.

[Shadow Dancer]

Da wäre noch...

Why does Sprinkled Delight seem to be all Katsuki and no Brian Skies at all?

tn, what ever became of your Toog read ? Seems to have dropped right out of sight. Did it change ?

[Shadow Dancer]

If I were not reading the thread, NS, would I have even noticed Cheet's apparent absence of posts? Now could this maybe be the one game were you are actually doing something to fulfil your wincon, whichever it is. I know its asking much, but I'd rather be able to read you than lynch you for active lurking at some point. There are just too many players doing their utmost keeping a low profile in here for that to be any efficient.

It'#s interesting how Per manages to shift both his read and vote on me and declare it as "no new thoughts or ideas".

FoS Per

Still like my vote where it is currently. I would much appreciate it if Untrod would actually engage me instead of just doing the OMGUS vote and shift off all responsibility for it to gamma, especially since he still hasn't explained his earlier read on me.

[Shadow Dancer]

If you were reading the thread, you would've noticed that Cheetory requested replacement, and you would not have asked what you asked.

He does not openly request it in his ISO, so why would I have necessarily noticed it ?

[Shadow Dancer]

Yeah, Gamma, I am acting above every one else, like, I do not actually try to lie low like every one else does.

And what do you even mean by "implying UT is scum instead of actually going after UT for it"? If there is even a difference between "implying he is scum" and "going for him", I'd still be doing both right now. Could you explain to me, how Untrod first calling me out on "being too undedicated" (while I am on V/LA and just peaking in, mind !), which is essentially a huge wall of hypocrisy, considering his own pile of fluff posting in this game, then paddling back and calling it "probably not alignment indicative", which he is boneheadedly refusing to elaborate on now, just to eventually jump on my wagon anyway, but not before it has got some traction from you and others, and is now in major deflection mode, almost as if he is actually afraid to engage me ?

And what do you make of Per just wagon jumping like that?

Seriously, you quite obviously fail to grasp my play one bit, so you should be very careful with allegations surrounding any one's not getting any one else. If you think I am wrong about Untrod, then explain why. I have not played with either of you, as far as I can recall, neither have either of you, accordingly, played with me. So get on with some explaining already or just take a running jump because I am tired of people who think they can just run some lazy wagon through day one and magically generate a favourable outcome from it. If you can get a majority of players to play like that, go ahead, just lynch me quickly so I do not have to endure it any longer than day 1. I am not going to spend another game yelling at people for days, just to have it end with some town which cannot really be bothered screwing it up in the end because they cannot even get the basics right.

NS, we played together in NikPick IV (or some other NikPick. And I am always "standoffish" (assuming you mean calling out the bullshit). I did not want to be this. I never want to be. But seriously, it's already come so far again, because I'd rather get out in flames, and get out quick, or kick some major butt than have another game waste away for months because town cannot pull their shit together. I have too many games lost to that kind of crap recently.

As for Cheetory, I realized his lack of presence in the game, checked his iso and saw that he had only those three posts. I did not check Andrius' iso to see if there was any hint of Cheeto having requested replacement, because I did not consider the possibility at first that he had requested it via PM.

[Shadow Dancer]

I thought it was kind of obvious but I don't mean acting above everyone as in being active, I mean it as in you feeling a bit overly snobby, as in you being snarky in regards to 'appreciating it if UT would do this' instead of just explicitly saying that you think it's scummy that he's acting the way he is. It's not an ironclad guaranteed scum behavior but scum tend to behave that way more often than town.

So because I am not a total arse rightaway, I must be scum.
I see why you can overlook Untrod's scumminess so easily, at least. He is making a habit out of outright insulting people, he is clearly not concerned what any one things, right? If you want I can swear at you some more, I can do that. Stands to question whether you'd actually prefer this game sliding down the slope to total piss-offery, I'd definitely rather avoid it.
You think I am a giant snob. Okay, I guess I can life with that quite well. Although I do not like how that point of view puts you above all criticism in reverse. I cannot really appreciate being called scummy for it, though. Not if this waggon, which is entirely made up off blurt so far, has grown to the size it has.

I don't give a shit about Per wagon jumping like that and if you think it's scummy then explain why instead of implying that you think it is without bothering to do so.

He did it right after explaining that "there are no new thoughts or ideas to share". So either he lying or it is just blatant opportunism.

Don't really get where this is coming from, I think you're scum and have explained a bit of why, aside from 'to make this statement overly dramatic and make it look like I'm superior' why did you choose this particular wording?
And finally I don't have a strong opinion on UT's alignment right now, I just think that you're scum. So, not going to bother right now.

So you do not share my fondness of long, intricate tape worm sentences. Fine. You can probably blame it on English being not my mother tongue, blaming it on my being scum would be just terrible reasoning, though. Everything else is just your own bias and projection, though.

[Shadow Dancer]

Spoiler: nested quote

kise can you tell me reads of yours that aren't about reck

I request to be addressed as any combination of Mr. John Shaft.

PV, tn, Seraph for scum.

PV's posts are light like cotton candy. Seraph seems like he wants to float without bringing attention to / incriminating himself. tn has been trying to win reck's favor, scrubbing his nuts real good these past few days. Seems like he got overeager by trying to lock in one of reck or myself as scum instead of thinking "maybe they're both town and I won't butt in".

Assuming that I'm scum, how is it that i wouldn't know both yours and reck's alignment? You never adequately address this.

?! This reads like a non-sequitur.
As scum, though, you would clearly fully, openly admit to knowing every one's alignment

cheets got replaced i believe

[/quote]Yeah, I figured that out already.

[Shadow Dancer]

WHY do you believe that I'm failing to grasp your play?

Because quite obviously you are drawing all kinds of utterly wrong conclusions from it.

[Shadow Dancer]

Also the language point was adressing your point about my "overly dramatic language" and had nothing to do with your failure to grasp my play.

[Shadow Dancer]

Let me rephrase, you are drawing the wrong conclusion that I am scum for utterly wrong and subjective reasons, that you would clearly be able to recognize as mere playstyle differences, assuming you come from a mindset that is not majorly limited by some means.

[Shadow Dancer]

Let's recapitulate Untrod's post history with me a bit:

Post 155: I vote Untrod (that I did not elaborate on the reasons was partly because of lack of time, I was on V/LA for a reason, after all, partly because it was more or less a gut read from the quick skimming I did back then).
Post 158: Untrod making a little wall about how bad my post was (in a manner definitely no less hyperbolic than anything I may have done by the way, although contrary to Gamma I would not consider that indicative of anything per se) and obviously completely oblivious, or wilfully ignoring, my V/LA status at the time.
I'd like to particularly point out his point about my criticizing the game state, but not doing anything about it, which is just major hypocrisy, given that he has made comments on the same lines, but other than me was actually in position to actually do something about it.
Still, he is only calling my post "awful", not scum.
Post 168: Nika bites on it, anyway and votes me, whereupon Untrod responds:

I don't think his awfulness is necessarily alignment indicative.

why do you?

Fast forward to Post 307, where I ask Untrod to explain his read, which to this moment he has stalwartly decided to ignore, as it seems, folowed by:
Post 333: Untrod voting me ; reasons: "Sheeping Gamma" (subtext: "so that waggon got traction now and I can kind of plausibly jump on it" ?)
And then

Post 342

, which is just an ugly blotch of disdainful sarcasm and only aimed at discrediting me and avoiding any deeper confrontation. Where's the town mindset in that ? You better tell me quick!

[Shadow Dancer]

I recognize that there are a lot of different ways in which people play mafia and that some of your and everyone else's behavior is due to you as a person and not your alignment. But I'm aware that I personally try to look a little bit more imposing/authoritative/royal/whatever-you-want-to-call-it as scum to make my posts seem more like things that should be listened to and believed, and to make my posts seem more convincing.
It's possible that you do the same things as town or just naturally present yourself that way but from my personal experience I know that it's one of my tendencies as scum and I think that the fact that you're doing something similar makes you much more likely to be scum.

And if it is not alignment indicative, and you clearly haven't played with me before to know any better, I am just an acceptable collateral damage to your inflexible scum-hunting schemes?

[Shadow Dancer]

So did you just not answer the question I asked you in there? If that's not what's responding to the question I'm not sure what is in your sentence, and saying that my read on you is just "bias and projection" is absolutely worthless unless you explain WHY you think that it's biased and incorrect.

Just so we are on the same page: What question are you actually referring to here?
The bias and projection is that you see a behaviour, assume an underlying reason for it and then take the behaviour as evidence for just that underlying motivation without considering alternative explanations first and trying to determine which one is more likely the correct assertion (though the fact that at least you are not avoiding all discussion with me partly relativates this by now).
More to the point, you assume that my posting style is driven by some underlying, scum mindset motivated, while in reality, it is just how I post.

a)this is a really shitty defense that doesn't explain why you think it's not alignment-indicative

Because I know (1.) that I am town and (2.) That I am always (more or less, I guess) posting as I do here (at least in some regard, I am not particularly self-savy when it come to my own meta, I guess). Also, there is not even any solid argument why it would be alignment indicative to begin with, so that makes it kind of hard to defend against.

b)you're basically saying that because I haven't played with you before I can't possibly have a correct read on you which is a pile of garbage

No, all I am saying is that, had you played with me before, you'd in all likelihood not consider me scum right now.

c)whining about you being 'collateral damage' instead of saying why it's wrong is also something that's more likely to come from scum than town, and saying that my scumhunting is inflexible is another excessively theatrical way of saying that it's incorrect without saying why you think that is the case.

It is wrong, because you just blindly try to applying something you consider a "scumtell" to me, when it really does not apply at all. It's just a slightly more exotic version of the infamous call-every-one-who-is-defending-some-one-else-out-for-white-knighting-scheme (and countless other stereotypical "scumtells" like it).
The pity is that when it comes down to it, I am as little able to provide hard evidence for your argument as you are able to provide evidence for it (actually, my flip will give you all the hard and irrefutable evidence you could ever wish for, but if you are town, that would be kind of a high prize to pay).

[Shadow Dancer]

you're taking this *really* personally and I don't understand why

Not nearly as much as you may think, or are adamantly avoiding to explain your own thoughts. Sorry if this is all rather silly and below your dignity, but wouldn't it be nice then to just go ahead with it and end this whole fruitless discussion ?

and get the fuck over yourself
that post was truly awful, v/la or not

Then explain to me what was (a) so awful and (b) not scummy, after all, about it.

How was it any more terrible than this post for example:

I swear to christ if I have to spend this whole game trying to get it moving....

My issue with you is currently mostly that, granted, you have the highest post count this game so far, so you may claim more right to complain from that. But what I am really missing from you are posts that actually move the game forward. Fluffy one-liners, little snippets, but no useful reads, no in-depth thoughts, nothing that would give you the right to claim some moral high-ground of your own in this game.

[Shadow Dancer]

Nah, I thought you were fishy after your first few posts, but figured I'd give you more time to get your feet under you and town-WOW me.

But you didn't, so I'm voting you.

That does explain... Nothing at all.
It's kinda hard to town-WOW any one, when the town in question does give me so little to work with so far. Could you elaborate a bit, just so we can actually finally get some fruitful discussion going off my waggon?

[Shadow Dancer]

If Shadow Dancer is scum, NS is almost certainly his scumbuddy.

Actually, my feeling is growing that NS might be scum even though I am not. Just look at the nature at his posts:

You only "figured it out" BECAUSE I TOLD YOU.
I'm not sure if this is a deliberate misrep or not. In any case, if you're town, you certainly aren't showing it.
VOTE: Shadow

There is no misrep. I actually found Andi's vote count all by my own. All

you

did was insinuate I am not reading the thread. This is typical behaviour to undermine credibility, but not good scum hunting at all.

[Shadow Dancer]

So I think most people will agree with me when I say that staying in the background and trying not to draw attention is more likely to come from scum than town, as they don't want people scrutinizing them.

When I'm scum, I don't lurk much but tend to try to put myself seem 'above suspicion', by making good arguments without any points that could be used against me, and by trying to let the town actually push the wagons I want more than I do myself- usually by suggesting that people are suspicious without actually saying it myself, by asking obviously accusatory questions or implying that they're scum through descriptions of their play instead of actually explicitly stating that "they're scum for X reason(s)".

So I am showing two kinds of behaviour, which are basically contradicting each other, but which are both scummy ? Could you at least be precise about where I allegedly do either of those ?
Furthermore, saying my points against UT are minor does not really cut it. What makes you think they are minor ? Is the game already too advanced for you to be bothered by minor ? How is his weird, contradicting changing of his read on me, which he refuses to explain, or his massive amount of active lurking not at least a signal to be wary of his motivations here ?

[Shadow Dancer]

No, he is just saying the opposite of dram. In reality both ways of reasoning are just inconclusive WIFOM, though, and ignore the actually interesting point, which is: How come you agree with me about the people on my waggon (I'd rather point towards Per than Nik right now, but that's only because Nik's claim is pretty credible as coming from town), yet still manage to call it a good waggon? The term fence sitting acquires a whole new dimension this way.

And how does NS being slightly less and just marginal and useless in this game than usual refute the point that his recent activity is scummy, Untrod ?

[Shadow Dancer]

Actually, add dram to the list of suspect people. He's also surfing on my waggon without any reasoning of his own and overall his post history is but a bunch of little nothings and commentary snippets about entirely unimportant things from the side line.

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm not and never did say that your points against UT are minor, although I would probably agree with that statement because I think you attacking him so hard for what seems to be him calling your early post bad but not necessarily in a scummy way and being dickish are both not scumtells at all. (and I really dislike how hypocritical it is for you to be attacking UT for being a dick while going off on me for having not played with you before and therefore not having a solid grasp of your play, when your argument on UT is largely based on HIS playstyle.)

Nonono. I am neither attacking him for being the obvious prick (i.e. playstyle), apart from the fact that his "playstyle" and rude comments have definitely proven to poison discussion rather than drive it so far. In short: I would not mind his being an arse if he actually were an effective arse. But right now, look at his iso, he is has the largest post count in this game, but that's really the most positive thing that can be said about his impact on this game.

And my point about his earlier read on me is not so much about his earlier attacking my post any more, you are absolutely right, that may have been an absolutely minor thing to begin with, and I asked him initially to clear that up ; no, what really pings my scumdar is the fact that instead of simply explaining his read (which would have been a trivial matter if he were actually town an genuine) he instead keeps refusing to do so and make discrediting comments in my direction instead. Granted, having himself established as a jerk is also a nice cover for that, but it does not justify it in the least, nor does it explain it on its own.

"minor" was referring to the behavioral points that I think suggest that you could be town.

Wait, so now you are suggesting I am town? I need to reread later, I think I am not quite following something here...

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: Cheetory

Might just as well do this alphabetically for a start ;

also, I have no idea who this person even is, so time to figure it out.

@mod: Has Cheetory been prodded? He only has three posts, and the last one's from last week.

You met in a warm French bakery on a cool spring day, got to know him, from toppings to fillings, and then noticed he was gone, so asked the baker where your favorite pastry had gone?

Seriously, I am not even sure what to tell here. Look at this guy. Has he nothing more urgent to do than trying witty about my marginal interactions with Cheetory?

[Shadow Dancer]

we have no flips. you know absolutely jack shit about how effective I am/will be

Flips got nothing to do with it. Stop deflecting already.

[Shadow Dancer]

Mass quoting me in red does exactly prove what, Per? Most of those questions never even got answered, by the way.

[Shadow Dancer]

Could you elaborate a bit, just so we can actually finally get some fruitful discussion going off my waggon?

You asked me to elaborate on why I voted you. See 415 and 419.

415 is only like totally random.
419 is a list of my quotes in red, without any elaboration as to how they meet your insunation.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow this is an exact quote from you attacking UT associating him being scummy with him insulting people.

I see why you can overlook Untrod's scumminess so easily, at least. He is making a habit out of outright insulting people, he is clearly not concerned what any one things, right? If you want I can swear at you some more, I can do that. Stands to question whether you'd actually prefer this game sliding down the slope to total piss-offery, I'd definitely rather avoid it.

Oh bloody frickin hell, have you even read the whole quote? Read it again so you understand it. This is not me talking about my concerns with Untrod, this is me pointing out the obvious flaw in your scum = trying to be nice (hence being rude meaning town) argument.

And this is an instance of exactly what I'm talking about with describing someone else's play and implying that it's scummy in the hopes that other people will go along with it without actually bothering to go into any detail on why it's scummy or how them saying that is a scumtell/makes them scum.

Seriously, I am not even sure what to tell here. Look at this guy. Has he nothing more urgent to do than trying witty about my marginal interactions with Cheetory?

Yeah, because I never called Per scum already...

[Shadow Dancer]

I also love how Shadow keeps saying I'm insulting people when I called him a stupid motherfucker like, one time

he's done a whole HELL of a lot more insulting of my play that I ever did of him or anyone else

I do not insult your play, just point out what it is. If you feel insulted by that, then that's obviously your fault. Makes your earlier point about me taking things personal seem like another giant fit of hypocrisy, though.
Look at your own ISO, if you really think calling me motherfucker (I do not even remember this specific one) was the only unsolicited rude remark you have thrown some one's way this game.

[Shadow Dancer]

motherfuckin DEAL

VOTE: Shadow Dancer

Okay, I had already some mild suspicions. This proves is Reck is scum, too.

Seraph, if you are town, go and take a running jump. This was just terrible.

And don't think I am gonna claim any more. You'll realize how fuckin bloody incapable you are soon enough.
Don't forget to also lynch Reck, Untrod and Per, though. NS is only the least of the probable obvscum on that waggon.

[Shadow Dancer]

trust me i fuckin LOVE a good troll hammer but my god that was completely accidental

and im basking in it

Yeah, sure, every one will believe this bullshit.

[Shadow Dancer]

Just for the fun of it:

GO SCUM GO.

This town is so fantastically bad at doing anything right now, they do not deserve to win this.

[Shadow Dancer]

Und Tschüß !

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, one more thing. I just realized that, now that I am dead, I can do basically anything I want, so:

Shadow Dancer

Welcome to The Butcher, The Baker, The Pastry-Maker Mafia.

You are

Zwetschgenkuchen, Vengeful Townie

. You are aligned with

The Bakery (The Town)

.

---

Other than your vote you have the following abilities:

Supersaint

-

When you are lynched, you may select one other player to take a last shot at to kill them.

Town Win Condition: You win when all threats to your faction have been eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The Bakery is here.

Please /confirm by PM. If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

Vengekill Untrod

hehehehhehehe!