Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[pieguyn]

haven't read yet, but a few things I want to get out of the way before doing anything:

1.

CLAIM: HATED

2. I want us to massclaim today whether each of us is going to use a spellcard tonight. it doesn't have to be right now, just anytime, and it only needs to be today. this is for *reasons* that I probably will not elaborate on unless it is convenient for me.

3. scum probably has a way this game to set up a surprise LYLO, if the last 2 games are any indication.

[pieguyn]

ok I'm on the first post of the game and I'm laughing my ass off

<3 zmuffin

p-edit: I was hated the last game, I just didn't claim it.

[pieguyn]

zmuffin

I currently think you're town. is this finally the game where we can find each other and kick scum's ass?

[pieguyn]

cos in most of the games up to this point where we've both been town, one of us deathtunneled the other

but I intend to make myself obvious town this game and I have no intention of pushing you right now, so I hope I don't need to worry about that

p-edit: @zmuffin

[pieguyn]

Pieguy I currently don't think you're town and you know what that means

is that a typo? ._.

[pieguyn]

what's with the massive amount of :)s then

[pieguyn]

Who did I get

clearly you must be a QT spy, amirite

[pieguyn]

town: zmuffin, Ank, The Relentless, SB, Serenes Forest

no scumreads :<

vote: Shadoweh

[pieguyn]

ActionDan

wait, seriously?

Um, what?

I'm pretty sure everything I've done so far is dead-null at the most, so why exactly am I town?

10 looked slightly town. it is a bias of mine that town are more likely than scum to openly play their role in the game thread. it also seemed like an obscure sort of thing to think about; while I could potentially see scum coming up with it, I think it's somewhat more likely to come from a town POV of trying to get the game started.

[pieguyn]

shadoweh, you scum?

[pieguyn]

pie, that was a super quick way of sorting muffin, wth?

that's how it's done

I'm not interested in elaborating until later. do you currently think he's scum?

(for posterity's sake none of my reads are "OMG shining beacon of town" reads. they're early game reads. but I feel good enough about them to see where it goes for now and reevaluate later)

You don't know what my spellcard does, so why would it be obscure? It literally feels right now like my spell card was designed to reduce the effectiveness of hers. They synergize together way too well.

I wouldn't expect that kind of role interaction to be on most people's radars right at the start of the game; and even if it was, I think it's smth a town player would be more likely to be vocal about than a scum player (especially at the start of the game when they have nothing else to go on).

[pieguyn]

Are you going to break my heart this game again? I think you're more likely to be scum right now.

</3

what, specifically, gave you bad feels from Relentless's wall? cos I got the exact opposite impression of it.

(also kind of don't know where this is coming from given you were hard scum reading me for most of S&S iirc, but meh)

[pieguyn]

I currently think that I have no idea, my gameplan was sorting you out first so you could help me sort him out, but you're being way different than I remember

I'm pretty sure I played similarly to this in GIF's game? where exactly is this coming from?

[pieguyn]

that game was like a year ago

and if you wanted to compare me to another game, why not use O569 which occurred more recently?

[pieguyn]

@pie: What are the odds of:

there's at least 1 scum among pie, notty and SB

don't particularly care

I could see anywhere from 0 to 2 scum. I prefer to form reads based on actual play and worry about how many scum are in here later.

Whcih one was O569?

hope + 1/feirei's game/the most intense game in the history of MS

p-edit: uh, seriously? I'm pretty sure you explicitly referenced my play there at one point during GIF's game, so where is that coming from?

p-edit2: I'm not saying my play is similar. that was just me asking why you wouldn't pick the most recent game if you wanted to compare my play with another game

[pieguyn]

As for you, you seem about as grumpy as you did when you were scum, and maybe that's just bias talking, but I feel like you have the same attitude.

which posts specifically are making you think this?

fwiw, I don't actually see how my posts this game could be interpreted as grumpy, but that's beside the point

[pieguyn]

What have I done in this game that I wouldn't do (or am less likely to do) as scum?

do I have to answer this? a lot of it is meta-based and I don't want to out the reasoning.

This is a really poor line of thinking. I mean, apart from the fact that it was in direct response to something I said, being open about negative utility stuff is a relatively easy way for scum to appear open and look vaguely town~ish in some people's eyes.

it's kind of a personal bias of mine. I agree it's possible, but I think scum would be sliiiiightly less likely to think about it than town. plus, it's an early read. I don't like where Ank's focus has been since then, but I'm pretty sure Ank starts slowly in large games regardless of alignment so I'm considering that null. if I have reason to go back and reconsider it later, I will. /shrug

can you walk me through why you think Serenes is scum?

[pieguyn]

Well i'll be back later (inb4 there's 10 new pages by the time i get back)
PEd: Well i don't remember, how recent was that game anyway?

you don't remember that game?

...

If anything it seems like you gave your archnemesis, muffin a way too easy townread... but well i'll dwell on it when i'm back.

how much, specifically, do you remember from the last touhou upick?

cos you should really know that I'm not scared to read him like a lot of people are

[pieguyn]

he reminds me of you in the first touhou upick, actually. specifically for the traits that nati pointed out to me in that game. though i'd have liked to see more content from him before he disappeared today, but oh well.

iirc most of what Nati said about me that game was that my scum reads were forced, correct?

I don't actually mind his SB push. for a few reasons. first off, his whole angle is that SB as town usually jokes about bussing, but would be less likely to do so in an offsite game. this actually doesn't seem that unreasonable, and I can easily enough see town attributing it to a start-of-game mindset slip; compared to, ex. my push on Hanasawa at the start of that game, I don't get anywhere near as much as a scum-coming-up-with-bullshit vibe from it, and it kind of felt like he believed it.

second, now that I look at it in context, I'm realizing he essentially went and accused SB for something he's done before as town. which is kind of giving me second thoughts about it since I agree it's not good, but I still don't think it's explicitly scummy; I don't see what scum-him has to gain by coming up with something that he knows is blatantly wrong and that SB could go and _prove_ is blatantly wrong. it makes more sense that he's town and thought SB would play differently on another site for whatever reason, even if it's not a particularly good line of thought.

can you walk me through why you disliked the push there?

[pieguyn]

I have to go eat and then finish an assignment that's due at midnight. brb

[pieguyn]

I don't see what scum-him has to gain by coming up with something that he knows is blatantly wrong and that SB could go and _prove_ is blatantly wrong.

btw to expand on this

his story here is actually pretty consistent, which indicates that if he's scum he did this cos he thought he would as town. but I think making that push in the way that he did would be a pretty surefire way to get SB on his bad side really quickly. I think it's somewhat unlikely scum would do something that would knowingly alienate themselves from one of the few people in the game they know.

but I haven't cross referenced this yet so I don't remember how SB *actually* reacted to this or if it would change anything

[pieguyn]

btw I think pie is town.

I'm actually somewhat curious why you think this, but meh. not a big deal

brb for real now

[pieguyn]

no it was more about trying too hard at the beginning of the game, the forced reads and votes stuff came later (though that, too, is partially why i found the shadoweh vote odd - like he didn't quite know what to do with his vote after "changing" his read on SB)

tried reading again; to be fair, there was a lol RVS wagon going on Shadoweh at that point in the game, so I don't find it too out of the ordinary. the only thing I really disliked was how quickly he backed off it, but I think that can be attributed to playstyle at this point; either way I'll keep an eye out for it.

I don't think tryharding at game start is much of a scum tell. maybe it's just me. I also didn't really have a problem with the rest of his reads after the SB thing. what else came off as forced to you?

Your posts.

i c what ur doing here

which posts?

[pieguyn]

Pie read Sakura for me Tia

Sakura stop voting town or you're uninvited from our hood

I'm somewhat suspicious of Sakura at this point, but I'd like to wait a bit before solidifying/elaborating on it. there's a few of her posts that pinged for me and I think if she's scum she'll keep doing what I'm picking up on, but I don't have enough for it to be conclusive yet.

Why are you voting for Shadowy? GIF gets the same question for also posting after Shadowy started posting, but you demonstrably had plenty of time to actually engage Shadowy in meaningful discussion and didn't really do so.

I didn't have a problem with Shadoweh's responses to me and I don't really have any idea of what else I can do with my vote at this point. /shrug

at this point I'm focusing more on solidifying town reads since I don't have any good scum reads yet

[pieguyn]

Fancy meeting you here! I'm not seeing "SB is being reckless" anywhere in SF's (faulty) logic for their original SB vote, so I can't agree with your proposed contradiction, and outside of that...well, there's just not a whole lot of meaningful content here. Post #82 in particular is amusing because it expresses distaste with thgkdms for getting a point across "in a fairly convoluted fashion" when #82 itself doesn't really get any meaningful point across at all. It, like the rest of your posts, remind me of Mala's posts, looking useful without actually being useful.

actually, I agree with this

I don't like Sky_Paladin's push on Serenes very much. it felt more like scum who felt the need to overly justify a push on an easy target; from a town POV it would make more sense to vote as soon as you get a scum read instead of sitting around and waiting, and the point about being "reckless" is more of a straw man than an actual point. he doesn't have much focus or scumhunting outside of Serenes either; there's a few pokes here and there but the only hard push is on Serenes. it feels premanufactured.

vote: Sky_Paladin

p-edit: ^here's 2 reasons. why do you have him as town?

[pieguyn]

also

I think BDSM folks should call truce for today and focus on others for now.
I don't see either of them as scum anyway.

you have a town read on Sakura?

p-edit:

>_> Uh okay. I'm not sure I understand not being able to find anything more worth doing with one's vote than maintaining an unsubstantiated one, but if the culture here is that such is okay then I'll have to acclimate. I do think using a vote to pressure someone you're not 100% convinced is town is a better use of said vote, though.

that's kind of what it was to some extent. I didn't see much of a point in not leaving it on the Shadoweh wagon, either, so I didn't move it.

[pieguyn]

That is what I did. I asked a number of questions to Serene Forest, SB, and Rylia. I voted SF because their response to pressure was apparently to change their story and claim they had some reason for voting Shadoweh. It looks like baloney to me.

If I removed my vote because it wasn't popular right now, then there's no point applying pressure.

then you usually withhold votes until you're relatively sure someone is scum?

what I'm saying is it would have made more sense to jump on Serenes as soon as you first started pushing him instead of waiting until he "changed his story" - which I think is more likely to come from scum testing the waters to see how well-received the push would be.

How would

you

describe Serene Forests backflip on SB?

it was exactly what he said it was.

his point was never that SB was being "reckless", it's that SB wouldn't make a joke about his meta of bussing on another site as town. then he dropped it when he decided SB-scum wouldn't be that reckless. how is that the same thing as SB-scum being reckless?

[pieguyn]

I couldn't vote Serene as soon as I started pushing, because he only changed his story in response to questioning. That is why I questioned first. If I voted first, that would mean I had predetermined to vote him, and that was not the case.

fair enough, we can proceed.

can you answer my question at the end of 242? I still don't see why you're saying Serenes' angle was that SB was relentless.

pieguyn #202: I feel like I'm either misunderstanding your logic here or Serenes' because from what I can tell Serenes' vote wasn't "wrong" in context of a new forum, it was just over-the-top. + there are reasons to find Serenes scum other than the SB vote - they do nothing w/ SB's responses and as they backpedal from the vote they don't really focus elsewhere. since the pressure on them seriousgamestarted I would expect town them would have more to talk about instead of just defaulting to Shadoweh jokewagon

it's wrong since if you ignore the context of it being on a new website, it's SB doing the exact same thing he usually does as town. and both Serenes and SB would be aware of this. hence I think it's a somewhat unnatural angle for scum to walk right up and try to push

and yeah, I don't like the way he backed off either. that's the only thing I've seen from him that I specifically dislike, though.

[pieguyn]

pieguy are you scum with relentless

answer honestly

nope. do you have a scum read on Relentless?

anyway, I actually really like 248. I don't like the "bad" reads/lack of townreads on a playstyle level, but I can follow basically all of what he's saying and I see why he believes the angles he's pushing.

@Shadoweh:

does 248 affect your scum read on Relentless? I also still want to know specifically why you disliked Relentless' post earlier (if you answered this, link plz).

[pieguyn]

I also still want to know specifically why you disliked Relentless' post earlier (if you answered this, link plz).

feck, just saw it. never mind this

still want your answer to the other question, since I wouldn't really consider any of what he posted there "nitpicking" and I'm curious to know what you think

[pieguyn]

mm, I don't really see the "trying too hard" necessarily coming from scum. I'm not sure what to say here besides I'm not reading it as forced. I can see it coming from the POV of town who isn't used to joking around in games, so they immediately start of taking everything seriously, even if their argument wasn't all that great. him moving onto Shadoweh afterward also makes sense from this POV because his initial post wouldn't be considered a serious post for him. it comes off awkward to me, but not forced.

most of the people from this site strike me as people who play more seriously/carefully as people who play on MS. I'm reading their actions keeping this in mind.

I'm pretty sure I could guess why he decided to vote Shadoweh, and that it was related to there being a wagon on her at that point. if I'm right about the reason, I don't think it would be scummy, either. either way, I agree it'd be nice to hear the reason directly from him.

On the other hand, I still haven't seen anything from pieguy that has particularly wowed me. He's written the most words in the game so far (I think?) but a lot of it feels rather empty and/or weak. Granted, early days, but it somewhat feels like pieguy is making more of an effort to appear town than actually producing town-motivated content.

I haven't really done anything yet. if it helps you read me, I generally start off slower now than I did previously.

[pieguyn]

I know you haven't done anything yet. That was actually my point.

yes, and I'm not denying it

I'm mostly just picking up reads as I get them until more serious stuff happens in the game. and I still don't have any strong scum reads. the only scum read I have is Sky_Paladin but at this point the only reasoning behind it is I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning.

there's really nothing I'm aiming to accomplish in this game atm. .-.

[pieguyn]

Lily doesn't like pieguyn's two latest posts either!

elaborate?

[pieguyn]

o, I didn't actually notice that post

I'm not going to attempt to force a read when I don't have any. if nothing anyone is doing stands out as particularly scummy, I'm not going to act like it does. also, I'm pretty sure I've explained or at least addressed most of those town reads (all of them save SB) by this point; if you want me to elaborate on anything I'm more than willing to

besides that, as I said, when I'm ready to do more, I will. /shrug

[pieguyn]

vote: Rylai

[pieguyn]

Meh reading is hard it's 4am going to sleep

People I don't feel fond of:
GiF: Definitely hasn't contributed
Sky Paladin: His reasoning for voting SF is based entire of a misconception of SF's posts, and he's trying to push that as a kind of a gotcha kind of thing. He's also accusing SB of being scum for saying SF is town, and he's pushing only this and pretty much just sitting around on everything else.
AD: No

I don't buy this reads list at all. for a few reasons:

1. how is "not contributing" a scum tell? additionally, if you're going to attempt to go for people who aren't contributing, why are you leaving out basically this entire game (Kagami, Gaiden, Drezi immediately come to mind) and singling out GIF? it feels like you're bullshitting reads here.

2. this is...... explicitly not why SP is accusing SB as scum. SP's reason is clearly not that SB is town reading SF, it's the

reason

for doing so: he thought "scum Serene is more careful" wasn't a good enough reason. how do you get "saying SF is town" from that?

SF: Don't like use of meta, but his reasoning for clearing SB are pretty sound to me so
I also agree with other cases on SP, don't mind relentless too much after #248

you're aware Serene's reason for clearing SB was entirely based on meta, right?

[pieguyn]

also Sakura is probably scum and Serene is like 95% town

@Sakura:

answer my question in [post]186[/pos]?

[pieguyn]

feck 186

[pieguyn]

If this is your reason for suspecting GIF, then what's your opinion on me who hasn't contributed much either?

also I have literally no fucking idea why you questioned my Rylai vote when you asked this in literally the same post, but meh

[pieguyn]

I remember me being voteless, sending a public investigate on Varsoon pretty early in the game, some people wanting me dead like always, bork vs muffin, then i check some muffin games and give him a townread, you agreeing with me on that townread, more arguments, then i dont remember who got lynched, then you died N1 and Varsoon was a godfather, I remember me lying about my role a lot but i got roleblocked and vigged on N2, and that's all I remember.

OK

first off (not faulting you for this in particular) this isn't strictly true, my townread on zmuffin was entirely independent from yours. but regardless: if you remember me town reading him in that game, why were you surprised when I gave him a town read here?

Because my reason may not be the same as yours, and i dont particularly know what's going through your mind so a naked vote doesnt tell me much.

no reaction at all to my suspicion of you? I wasn't sure exactly how you'd react, but I expected you would be at least somewhat interested in me calling you scum without explaining the reason.

[pieguyn]

Does sakura scum make sense given your negative utility aspect? (Yes/No/Irrelevant)

irrelevant. there was a somewhat similar setup in the first touhou upick where I could set up a surprise LYLO by hiding my vote-freeze ability until then. I don't see any reason it should be ruled out.

[pieguyn]

Because you were wrong in that game, what makes you think you're not wrong about him here, you always talk about him being your archnemesis, im really surprised you'd give him a townread that easily, i wasn't even able to townread him in Saki until he made his case on me.

uh

first off, I legit don't remember making that big of a deal over our history. but regardless, I'm about 99% sure I have never, ever said I have trouble reading him. and second off, I'm pretty sure I said that I was starting to suspect him that game after I died and that I thought he was probably scum if I missed one of my town reads.

additionally, if you thought that I was giving him a town read too easily, why didn't you just ask me to elaborate?

You should know i don't react to suspicion, I react to emotion.

the hell does this mean?

I have no idea what you're saying here and I don't remember this being part of your play style at all.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: Sakura

also interested in the reasoning behind this, even though I agree with the conclusion

[pieguyn]

Sigh, really, you know me more well than anyone here and you don't remember that? My feels

no, I legitimately don't remember you _ever_ not being interested in suspicion on you just because you're distinguishing it from emotion. I remember you usually go full-out defending yourself or trying to engage them when someone pokes at you, and I don't ever remember you explicitly distinguishing suspicion from emotion.

this is even more so the case when it's coming from me. you should expect me to know how to read you, or at the very least find you when you're town. you weren't set off at all by me supposedly reading you wrong?

if you can cite evidence for this to prove I haven't just gone full amnesic, then I'll drop it, but that line looks really fucking forced in the exact way I'm used to seeing from scum you.

also answer my first question in 307.

[pieguyn]

Back when I was very emotional, i would react to every single suspicion on me, after that I tried to remove the emotional part of me, while i couldn't really fully remove it I managed to shrug off any sort of suspicion regardless of alignment, I react to emtion meaning that I don't react to a single suspicion, but I get emotional when I don't understand what's going on or why i'm being suspected and tend to just blame myself for it and resign, either in the form of a self vote or a replace out, on other ocasions i just yell at people and get fed up with the game.

for the sake of your feels, I obviously remember this; I didn't realize that was what you were referring to. anyway: I still don't see your point here at all. in O569 you were extremely thorough with defending yourself, so I don't get why you'd bring this up or suddenly feel a need to start ignoring suspicion again.

Because i'm trying to figure out if the why is because you are scum or the why is because i am rusty at scumhunting. And i'm starting to lean on the later after your last post.

this literally does not add up at all. you wanted to figure out if I was scum, and you thought the best way to do that was to........ NOT engage me about my suspicion of you?

and you still haven't answered why you wouldn't just engage me about my zmuffin read if you were curious about it. incidentally, not asking me about it also makes no sense from a POV of being concerned about my alignment.

What do you think about sky pally? (@both pie and sakura)

don't have many thoughts. I don't like his push on Serene claiming Serene's initial reason for scum reading SB was him being "reckless", but I don't mind anything else he did so far. what are your thoughts?

[pieguyn]

Yeah, so?

if you were legitimately interested in sorting me, you should have taken that opportunity to engage me on my suspicion of you instead of just sitting there doing fuck all about it.

like, you're saying that when I started being suspicious of you you wanted to figure out if I was scum-pushing you - and that your method of doing that was to completely ignore my initial suspicion of you. how did you intend to sort if my suspicion was coming from a town place if not by asking me about the thought process behind it?

Uh, i did ask you about it, i found it odd that you had gotten a townread on him so early and that's what we've debating about for a long while already.

oh jesus. I thought it was odd that you didn't ask me to elaborate on why specifically I had him as town, but then I looked again and saw that I outright told you I wasn't interested in elaborating as soon as you first asked me about it.

never mind that

Why are you voting Rylai over Sakura?

I'm still not sure what I'm seeing in Sakura's play necessarily has to be attributed to scum. I want to think about it more before deciding whether to hard push her over it.

on the other hand, Rylai's reads list (282) feels like he's just BS'ing reads, and there's no indication at all that he's trying to legitimately game solve so far. do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

And since when do you decide what's going through my head? you know i try to stay calm in my posts to prevent from exploding like I usually do, if that's not enough for you then go ahead and think whatever the hell you want, because i've already tried to reach out to you and i'm not gonna spend all this day phase just trying to reason with you.

when did you reach out to me?

not speaking sarcastically or anything. I legit missed it if you did.

anyway, I still need to know how exactly you thought ignoring my initial suspicion of you would help you sort me. (and it should really be obvious that I'm not 100% you're scum. if I'm wrong, show me why I'm wrong and I'll drop it.)

[pieguyn]

will respond to other posts after class, but I'm pretty sure FG flat-out said he wouldn't use QT spy again after the last game

[pieguyn]

Ok I've read up to page 7 so far but imma take a break to get thoughts out.

.
.
.

Pretty ok with rylai seems town.

hi. what in Rylai's one post up to page 7 did you find town?

Pieguy's read list is skeevy especially with all three of serene sky and relentless on there plus a nonentity like ank plus the massclaim of the spell cards with the condition of not revealing why per his discretion is not something I readily trust

hi. exactly why do you think me having all of Serene/SP/Relentless as town is scummy? additionally, why do you think me having a "non-entity" as town is scummy, especially when you put Rylai as town after only 1 fucking post? this seems like you're coming up with bullshit to suit a predetermined read since I can think of literally no logical explanation for it.

[pieguyn]

Hey pieguy I'm just going to throw this out there because I need to protect my buddy and all that

plus tbh I am skimming and need to read seriously but

do you think gif's touhou game and misreading her might cause you to be increasingly suspicious of her and give you a false guilty?

my thoughts on Sakura right now are _extremely_ mixed.

I first thought she was scum in 228 because I thought her posting up to then came off as forced, in a very specific way. she had been going on and on before this game started that she had been scum the last 3 times she played and was worried her town game would get a lot worse because of that. however, she spent a lot of time overemphasizing the fact that she didn't remember x, she didn't remember y, asking when game z happened, etc., which I didn't like bc I don't really know where she was going with some of it (e.g. 176); almost as if she thought she would be lost as town, but wasn't sure exactly *how* she'd be lost and so it came off forced. she continued doing this up to the point where I said she was probably scum.

the last line of 304 came off forced to me in the way I usually expect from her as scum. most of her forced posts come up in back-and-forth interactions where she really doesn't know how to respond, so she just comes up with something random-ish.

however, after a bit, I started thinking her play actually looks similar to her old style of play (before the games such as PvZ, O569 etc.). and I know this is shit logic, but I think Sakura as scum would be able to emulate her obv-town game like she did in GIF-game, which she isn't doing here; so I think her reaction to me is more likely to be town her. and I don't think she would think to deliberately play like she used to as town as scum before her playstyle shift as opposed to trying harder to emulate her aggressive/obvtown game.

however, at the same time, if she was out of practice as town, I don't really see any reason to rule out that she would be scum and out of practice as well; in which case this would be incorrect and I'm back at square one with all this. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone because she's playing way different than she did in her recent town games and now seems to be acting like those games never existed and her play was always like this (whether genuine or faked).

/shrug

walk me through why you think she's town?

[pieguyn]

Pieguy's read list is skeevy especially with all three of serene sky and relentless on there plus a nonentity like ank plus the massclaim of the spell cards with the condition of not revealing why per his discretion is not something I readily trust

actually, hold on.

you're aware I have SP as scum and not town, right?

[pieguyn]

or what the fuck are you saying here?

I'm guessing you meant Serenes, SB, and Relentless?

[pieguyn]

By providing a presence without actually doing anything just adds useless words to the thread while pretending to be

so it's not just "lack of content", it's being here and deliberately not doing anything. OK, we can proceed

Fair point, still don't buy it

why, specifically, don't you buy it, and why do you think this angle is less likely to come from town than scum?

[pieguyn]

however, after a bit, I started thinking her play actually looks similar to her old style of play (before the games such as PvZ, O569 etc.). and I know this is shit logic, but I think Sakura as scum would be able to emulate her obv-town game like she did in GIF-game, which she isn't doing here; so I think her reaction to me is more likely to be town her. and I don't think she would think to deliberately play like she used to as town as scum before her playstyle shift as opposed to trying harder to emulate her aggressive/obvtown game.

oh and to elaborate more on this, another thing I think points more towards her being town is that the rest of her interaction with me besides 304 didn't really feel planned, but that's almost entirely gut

sooooo

[pieguyn]

@pieguyn: why is Rylai worse than Sky_Paladin? I don't get why you'd single out Rylai for hating on GiF while town-reading me when I dislike him for the same reasons.

I didn't like the way Rylai went about it bc as far as I could tell he was just calling people out for lack of content. which by itself isn't scummy, and furthermore, if he actually believed this, it doesn't make sense to selectively call out GIF given a lot of other people had a low amount of content in a vacuum.

now that he explained it's more that GIF is being here but doing absolutely nothing while he is here, it looks better. and the only thing I dislike about SP so far is still the way he was pushing Serenes earlier, so my scum read there isn't particularly strong.

I actually think Sakura Hana is pretty scummy at this point just cuz she keeps posting but her reads don't evolve. She's worse about this than GiF at this point, only GiF is at least assertive. A large part of her activity correlated with pieguyn pressuring her, too, and there was a line pieguyn said about one of her posts looking "forced" and tbh that's the way I've felt about most of her emotional appeals.

don't particularly think either of these are good reasons for scum reading Sakura. Sakura and I have a huge history with each other, so her being more active when I suddenly step up and announce a scum read on her makes sense. I don't think the emotional appeals were particularly out of the ordinary for her, either.

I agree she hasn't done much yet, but I'm mostly playing wait-and-see w.r.t. how her reads evolve. I wanna give her as much room as possible here considering if town she's having an extremely slow start this game.

forgot to remove this after getting to pieguyn's explanation. I think his reasons for taking back his scumread on her are pretty WIFOM though.

it is kind of WIFOMy, but it would be a more strong reason than my current reasons for scum reading her if it's valid

and I'm not really retracting my scum read on her per se, just that it's enough to make me unsure about it. I don't have any intention of lynching her, or letting her get close to a lynch, until I figure this out.

[pieguyn]

I actually agree with Drezi's overall assessment, although I don't endorse every single one of his points. 409 doesn't *actually* have any original thoughts in it, it's just Rylai asking a bunch of ppl for updated reads. also don't particularly get why Sky_Paladin fell off his radar when afaict Sky_Paladin still hadn't done anything to adequately address his point on him (?). there's still only 1 post with more involved content (366) and in hindsight I don't like where his focus is; it's entirely him defending himself as opposed to asking questions or trying to analyze posts. it feels more like he's just posting random stuff with no direction behind it, as opposed to trying to do anything to legitimately game solve or push his reads.

I don't get where the town reads on thds are coming from. will prob go through and explain why I haven't liked his posts later, but I'm out the door in a few mins

[pieguyn]

pieguyn: Can you update your town list for me please?

TOWN (S->W): Relentless, Serene, Kilga, SB, zmuffin <gap> Mala, Kagami, Drezi, Ank

I think scum is mostly in the MS players at this point since most of the people from shrinemaiden's play has been solid.

I also think Pie saying that he'd rather form reads from play than rolespec (somewhere around 170 iirc) and then not really doing much is sort of weird? It sort of looks like posturing. I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

my aim was to attack Rylai's logic moreso than defending GIF per se; I don't have a read on GIF. anyway, afaict most of the people who had suspected GIF were already distinguishing between having no content and being here but purposefully not doing shit, which I didn't have a problem with. Rylai had just said "no content", which is different than having content that is actually entirely empty (and jumped out at me in particular because it looked like a bullshit throwaway reason someone would come up with to push a fake read). I dropped it once he clarified what he meant.

Heh. While I think Rylai is quite possibly scum (or at least has not done anything that looks town), I don't think Drezi's points are all that strong. In general, I'm not a fan of picking apart little things and trying to make them appear scummy (like the AD comment) and the only real comment Drezi wrote that I could potentially agree with is the last one (though I can also imagine a perfectly valid explanation for it).

it was more that I agreed with the overall sentiment that Rylai is just coming up with random stuff to post without any direction behind it. the only point I found somewhat compelling in a vacuum was the second one, where he's trying to appear like he's knowing what he's doing/trying to game solve without actually doing so.

besides that, I thought the post looked town, more or less because he was seeing basically what I saw (wrt the 1st/4th points) and it looked like he believed it.

[pieguyn]

Unvote: GIF
Vote: Rylai

do you have additional reasons for this, or is this a sheep?

[pieguyn]

You do realise the first point (and part of the second point) are almost entirely identical to the whole "why are you only mentioning GIF?!?!?!?" thing, right?

not really. I saw it as him calling Rylai out for doing something completely useless (sitting around and asking people for reads instead of actually pushing anyone - the latter part he didn't explicitly say, but it looked like that was his point, especially if you read the 1st sentence/1st half of the 1st point) with no actual intent to game solve.

the second half of the first point (and the second half of the second point) I didn't find compelling, but I could see it as a question aimed to figure out if Rylai actually was going anywhere with any of it.

Ignoring the possibility he could be scum with Rylai (ergo, not just believing it, but knowing it), I don't see really see this or how it makes him look town. (Not to mention he was setting up for that vote for since his previous post, which is part of why I think it sounds a little forced, e.g. the AD point)

the 3rd point (re: Dan) I'm reading as newb, not forced. in addition to what I just pointed out, I liked the 2nd point because he to some extent looked at the motivation behind Rylai's line re: GIF and that this was consistent with the idea of Rylai pretending to game solve without actually doing so, and the 4th point bc he obviously put in at least enough effort to cross reference it. I'm seeing at least some amount of thought and internal consistency behind this push, even if it's not necessarily that much and I disagree with some of the conclusions/lines of questioning.

and yeah, I *guess* they could be scum together, but meh. even coming from scum bussing, it still takes some amount of effort to make a thoughtful push that makes sense instead of one that looks forced.

[pieguyn]

Not particularly impressed with Drezi's vote against Rylai. Asking about why Rylai prioritized !science over everyone else non-memorable is a reasonable enough thing, but there isn't much beyond that. Rylai's not exactly high-hanging lynch fruit right now; surely a better and more efforted case could have been made than what was presented. It feels less like the product of legitimate scumhunting and more like the product of "oh crap I'm getting flak for my behavior I better try to do the things I've been accused of not doing".

what is your current read on Rylai?

what do you think of my thoughts in 413?

[pieguyn]

on reread I think I was wrong about thdg, although I'm not particularly sure about this. I also feel a lot worse about my reasoning for clearing Serenes; I thought I saw something earlier that made him strongly town, but looking back at it I have no idea why it wouldn't be able to be coming from scum nor do I remember why I thought it wouldn't when I first saw it. -.-

I'm also wondering where the hell notsci is. his posting while he was here was meh, but I'm extremely concerned about how he's lurking recently.

@Kagami, specifically:

what are your thoughts on thdg?

[pieguyn]

I don't understand why people are finding SP's wall town. a lot of it is just commentary, and there's nothing in there that's related to anything outside the 5 people he calls scum at the beginning (me/Serene/SB/Rylai/Kilga). plus I don't understand how he comes to a lot of his conclusions. he's just assuming all of us are scum and coming up with evidence to fit his conclusion.

and the thing is, I wouldn't even find this that scummy since I could see it coming from a POV of "hey, I don't like these 5 players from the start of the game. let's do a PBPA and see what we come up with"; but that means fuck all because he proceeds to continue calling all 5 of us scum at the end anyway, despite, for instance, agreeing with a lot of my lines of questioning and disagreeing with most of the suspicion on me but then coming up with a reason to call me scum at the end (flip-flopping a lot). if that's what he was trying to do, there was really no conclusion drawn from it.

the content in Dan's wall is not particularly telling either way. re: your point re: me, I'm not going to act like I feel more strongly about smth than I actually do when I'm seeing evidence that tells me there's some chance I'm wrong.

---

Like the reads list looks mostly fine to me, but Relentless being right at the top is literally the last thing I would have expected.

a large majority of what he's done in this game looks like genuine scum hunting. in basically all of his catchup posts, you can see him analyzing the actual motivation behind what other people are doing, pointing out what he perceives as contradictions, and asking questions and actually following through with them when he feels it's warranted. the relentless (lololol) effort and questioning here looks very town. there's also a lot of idiosyncrasies I think are slightly more likely to come from town than scum: just to name a few, him suggesting D1 massclaim and actually backing it up with reasoning instead of just throwing out "lol let's massclaim", calling out GIF for white noise at the start of the game (which is a reasonable observation and one that I've found myself somewhat agreeing with at various points over the course of the game), outright claiming vig in 150 - which just from the role in itself should be cause for a slight town read, followup on the massclaim in 248, etc...

I can explain in detail but that's basically the tl;dr of it. why do you think he's scum?

I'm not going to claim to be a master of analysing meta, but what I was looking for in his town game was similarities to his play here, and I don't see it at all.

I took a brief look at it and, while I don't find it particularly compelling, I think this looks more like his town game. my impression of this was that he was somewhat similar to me in that his town game contains a large amount of pointed questioning/tone and him pushing people, whereas in his scum game he spent a lot of time just sitting around not making many waves in the game. I actually agree that the *way* he's going about questioning people here is different, but I don't know what to make of it. it's basically that it doesn't specifically match his town game, but it looks so far off from his scum game that I don't really have a problem with it.

this is obviously leaving out a lot of factors. ex. he replaced into the Madoka game and it's generally easier to provide an objective view of the game upon replacing in, it's possible him not doing anything in the medical mafia game was based around it being a mechanical setup as opposed to anything alignment-relevant, and it's a really small sample size. either way, it'd be nice to have more content to judge.

I'll admit at least some of my initial read on him is that his read on Rylai agrees with mine, but he did a really good job pretending to notice exactly what I'm seeing in Rylai's play if he was scum here. (unless you're claiming that's not what he was actually picking up on, but I'm pretty sure even if he didn't explicitly say the same thing as what I said it comes from the same mindset.) /shrug

[pieguyn]

We've already had a very similar exchange in 342 & 346, and I clearly told him I wouldn't force any reads that are still shaping up, yet he once again pushed that question, only to use it to further his case on me.

what reads do you currently have that are still "shaping up"? doesn't need to be a solid read, just general thoughts/opinions are fine.

[pieguyn]

What "waves" do you think he'd have made this game, if not for my interaction with him forcing him to respond to something? A vote on Rylai that isn't exactly going against the grain?

his scum game had even _less_ than this. if you look through his ISO in the medical game Sakura linked, this is, quite literally, the only push he made that was based on logic as opposed to setup-related stuff.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3302092/

and you claim his reasoning for voting Rylai is meh, but if you look at this, it is quite literally on a whole lower level. he's voting someone entirely on the basis of saying something and "trying to present it like it's something new", with no explanation of why they're doing that or what they as scum have to gain by doing that. if you compare it to what he's doing here, what he's pushing Rylai over at least makes sense and I can see why he believes it and thinks it's scummy. all of his other posts were him just sitting around doing fuck all and commenting on the setup.

given that kind of attitude, I would hazard a guess that he's the kind of player who would go out of his way to not antagonize anyone as scum. which even if you explicitly pulled him into interacting with you, is the opposite of what he did with you. besides that, outside of Rylai, he's taken at least a stance on SP earlier.

Oh, come on. A blind monkey could write a case against Rylai

the same thing, as in, literally the exact point I'm noticing as opposed to just having the same read.

[pieguyn]

I'VE SEEN THE ERROR OF MY WAYS, PIEGUY. YOU WERE RIGHT. TOWNIEST FUCKING ISO I'VE EVER READ.

the thing is, I actually think the posts up to the initial Rylai case were *somewhat* relevant. ex: he pointed out the suspicion of Serenes was misguided in his 1st content post, saying Relentless' "townslip" was invalidated because he pointed it out, then later the stuff with SP and asking why people didn't want to read his post.

I can see why you're considering this as IIoA, but I disagree. unlike what happens when I see scum IIoA'ing, I can actually see a town player thinking most of these things and thinking they make sense. the logic behind what he posted about Serenes was correct - and I know you're going to disagree with this, but I was pretty sure that's what Serenes was trying to do as soon as he hinted that he didn't want to out the reasoning for his vote. the point re: Relentless and the followup on Serenes were meh, but neither of them came off as disingenuous to me. the stuff in 461 looked fine to me, really. he at the very least read through the wall, disagreed with some parts of it, agreed with other parts of it, and cross referenced enough to back up what he was thinking when it was necessary. the stuff with the pointed questioning came later (when he first started pushing you).

I guess you could argue that none of those posts are that difficult to make as scum, but as I said, most of what he's saying at least makes some sense to me. I don't agree with all of it, and I really wish he would do more, but there hasn't really been anything that's come off disingenuous to me.

I agree that he is capable of being more open and reasonable as town. the end result is that I'm waiting to see more content from him and will reevaluate accordingly, but I still don't have a problem with what he's done so far.

/shrug

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, but I'm going to assume it has no bearing on anything that's actually happened here. I'm assuming you're also suggesting that he wouldn't argue against someone who thinks he's scum as scum, which is a very sensible stance to take!

what I'm saying is: Drezi's scum game featured a complete lack of anything controversial whatsoever. even accounting for the fact they spent a lot of time talking about the setup, there were a fuckton of neutral posts. and when we did get a post that wasn't neutral, it was weak as fuck and still wasn't overly controversial/antagonistic.

actually, going back and looking at his initial push on you, it was entirely unprompted. it came from stuff you were saying in passing to me. that doesn't strike you as a firm stance?

this is even more so the case when you had literally just said you had a card that would allow you to basically force his lynch. it's a somewhat dangerous play to come out and scum push you right after saying that, especially when he demonstrated he usually doesn't have that kind of confidence as scum. and I guess you could say that he was scum trying to discredit you, or whatever, but I really don't think there was much of a need for him to do that.

I don't really see this going much of anywhere at this point.

[pieguyn]

:/

pretty sure we're disagreeing on principle here. in my opinion, you don't necessarily have to be throwing out firm stances on stuff in order to be game solving. as a specific example, with his post to SP, I'm more interested in what he was thinking when he read through the post as opposed to what his final stance on it was or what he did after it. he obviously read through it, formed opinions on different parts of it, and checked to see which parts were true and which weren't. that comes off genuine to me, even if his final "opinion" ended up being "maybe town but there's some parts I didn't like" and even if he didn't really have a unique scum read at that point.

as I said, I'm definitely keeping an eye out on what he does next in case he doesn't step it up.

[pieguyn]

No, because he broke down some things he didn't like about a post, some things that aren't informative in any way except to show that he can break down a post and not provide any opinions.

mm, allow me to clarify. I thought it was genuine not just because he did it but because of the way he did it; what he had actually posted about SP's post made sense to me.

but I'm not expecting us to agree with each other at this point, so I don't see much of a point in continuing this conversation

I am still a bit curious why you think scum-Drezi would have just entirely ignored you saying you had a card that would ensure he gets lynched. I think this is kind of a similar tell to what thezmon did in IN re: my dayvig gambit - he'd be taking a huge risk that you'd actually snap and just use it on him. this is more so because I'm looking for an alternate explanation for this as opposed to wanting to convince you, since I can't think of any so far.

[pieguyn]

By the way, pieguy, you've gone from suggesting these are what you perceive to be traits of his town and scum games, to defending the waves he hasn't been making by calling it town anyway.

*shrug*

I may have pretty much already made up my mind about him, but I'm not changing my opinions as it suits me to fit the read. I suppose you could say, "who cares about meta?" but whatever...

er?

outside the push on you, I don't think this looks similar to his town game. the whole point was that I thought he was doing more here than he did in his scum game. you argued why that wasn't the case, I argued counter to that.

"not making waves in the game" was perhaps poor wording. I tend to think of it as a deliberate action, i.e. scum who pretends to do stuff while not actually doing anything town-motivated. the line of argument was that I don't think Drezi's pre-Rylai/you play was him doing that, even if he wasn't actually doing much. (the alternative being that he was town and not doing much, which I thought was more likely bc what he was posting came off genuine to me)

[pieguyn]

it feels like you've gone from saying he has a similar playstyle to you, to saying it doesn't matter if his playstyle isn't what you initially thought it was because his posts are town anyway. and it feels like your justification for this is stretching (and not really analysing the town and scum motivation so much as looking at it as possibly coming from town and sticking with your original read).

well, kind of

I'm still mulling it over. the end result of this is I'm currently thinking Drezi is somewhat more likely to be town, but I don't feel strongly about it at all anymore. I want to see what he does when he gets back.

[pieguyn]

haven't read everything yet cos I'm marathoning Ar Tonelico II with Sakura, but real quick:

Since it looks like some people really want to know what's going on inside my head regarding those I'm not commenting about, I'll give a rough rundown:

I really wish you would do a lot more that isn't just pushing zmuffin. the only strong push you made was on zmuffin, but it's pretty obvious you were forming most of these reads as the game progressed. why haven't you spent any time at all trying to pursue whatever it was that's making you flip flop back and forth on Sakura/Ank every 3 posts? or pursue Kagami/Shadoweh at all?

instead we get you pushing zmuffin even more, and while I can't say I think it looks disingenuous, I don't really like where your focus has been this game. it doesn't seem like you're really trying to figure out the gamestate here.

I guess I was waiting to see more from you and I'm not happy with what I saw :<

[pieguyn]

also, nothing Sky_Paladin wrote is changing my scum read on him. will prob explain this later if it's still relevant

also I think Kagami is town, and this has nothing to do with her offering herself up to be gladiated

[pieguyn]

pieguyn 720 seems to be a really awkward way of backing off on their prev stance and announcing intent to join the wagon. It's not like she couldn't just change her mind like Sakura did and vote.

you're aware Shadoweh declared intent to hammer? there's no reason for me to join the wagon. I've also been pretty obviously hinting that I still don't feel strongly you're scum and that it took zmuffin persuading me for 2 pages for me to consider the possibility.

those questions in that post weren't rhetorical. I think zmuffin is correct that all of your effort so far has been on discrediting the people pushing you. what you're doing right now (as opposed to, again, trying to ask questions to confirm/deny the inexplicable feels you're supposedly getting on a lot of your reads) is backing this up.

[pieguyn]

you're basically saying you're ok with going along with my lynch, but also saying that you're sorry that I'm getting lynched despite being quite possibly town.

that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm ok with your lynch explicitly _because_ I think you're more likely to be scum than town at this point. I'm apologetic because I thought you were town before.

your vote doesn't matter, your opinion still does just as much, so don't try to act like you're not actually jumping on a wagon

if my vote doesn't matter, why was me not explicitly voting you such a big deal?

yes, I'm not going to go about and point useless questions at people (which seems to be the pinnacle of towniness here) because of my gut impressions right away, I'll wait and see and post when there's stuff I actually want them to answer to.

my problem here is this essentially means that outside of me/zmuffin (and the case on Rylai), there's literally nothing that you wanted people to answer to in this entire game. are you claiming this is the case?

like, this is basically why I eventually decided to wait for more content from you. I figured at first that you were having a slow start and didn't really think anything of it because I didn't mind the comments you were making. but I thought after being pressured for more thoughts, you'd have anything at all to ask about that wasn't related to how people were pushing you, and got fuck all.

[pieguyn]

You could vote him anyways, it's not like he'd be getting less deader. Unless you would prefer Rylai still at this point? I agree with Drezi that the way you flipped on him is strange-looking. If he does end up lynched and flips town I would seriously consider pressing you tomorrow for what's going on there.

not really interested. in addition to the fact that I still don't have strong feelings for him being scum, I want a response to my questions before finalizing the read there.

I would still prefer either Rylai or Sky_Paladin. probably Sky_Paladin, actually, bc I'm going through his wall posts in detail now and a lot of what he's saying is scummy as fuck. elaboration on this should be coming soon, I'm currently writing it.

also, fwiw, I'm pretty sure with Drezi-town scum-me has a lot more to gain in this situation by not flip flopping on him and continuing to defend him instead. it would be an easy way for me to get cred with zmuffin (who would be the person I would fear the most) after Drezi flips town, and there's enough people in the game scum reading Drezi that I wouldn't need to vote him for him to be lynched. on the other hand I was pretty aware the timing of my switch looked weird when I started questioning him. /shrug

[pieguyn]

OK. the main reason I think Sky_Paladin is scum is bc I think the stances he's taking this game, especially his push on SB, generally look forced. I'm going to sound like a huge hypocrite saying this, but it looks more like he's just coming up with excuses to paint SB as scummy as opposed to asking genuine questions. I also agree that his play has been completely reactionary.

the first thing (which I touched on already) is that in his first catchup post, he calls Serenes and all the ppl defending him scum, and then proceeds to come up with reasoning for it. which as I said isn't scummy by itself. however, a lot of the reasons he has are completely specious, or otherwise outright wrong. I'm not going to point every single one out, but there were a few that struck me as extremely wrong:

SB acknowledges that he screwed up in 86 when he states:
"Sky looked like he's making an attempt to look useful but wasn't really sticking his neck out and doing much. The post that cut me while I was writing this is kind of a counterexample though so meh."

this is strictly false. he is claiming that SB (86) is acknowledging that he "screwed up", aka that his original reasoning for voting SB was false.

that is not what SB was doing. SB was not retracting the original reasoning for his read. the post SB is referring to is 82, which came after his initial scum read on Sky_Paladin.

not only did he never assert that the original scum read he had was wrong, he never actually screwed up here. his read progression went from thinking Sky_Paladin was sitting on the sidelines attempting to look useful, to seeing 82 and questioning it.

there is nothing wrong here. this indicates that Sky_Paladin is pushing something that, if he was adequately reading the thread, he should really know is false, which in turn indicates he's making it up. plus, the way Sky_Paladin claims he "screwed up" comes off as nothing more than a weak attempt at discrediting.

Pie and Muffin keep on talking. Pie: 277

the only scum read I have is Sky_Paladin but at this point the only reasoning behind it is I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning.

Pie has also clarified that she has some issues with Serene but doesn't see Serene's actions as scummy at this point. She's confused her story here; originally she was saying my vote was bad because I said SB was reckless.

this is also strictly false. I explicitly said when I initially voted him (245) I thought his point that Serenes was "reckless" was a straw man, namely, he said Serenes was reckless when he wasn't actually being reckless.

the other problem I had with the 1st wall was that the progression on his read on me doesn't make much sense given what he was trying to accomplish with the wall. it initially started off as an attempt to look at all the ppl who were defending or otherwise related to SB. however, if you read through the wall, most of the interactions between me/the other players that he points out point towards at most towards me being town, which given he did this with me and I think 3 of the other players, should make me more likely to be town: ex. the part where he claims SB incorrectly claimed I was singling GIF out, or SB voting me because I voted Rylai. he also claims at several points that suspicion of me is misguided, or explicitly agrees with stuff I'm doing (e.g. questioning Dan on his Rylai town read).

however, at the end he declares a scum read on me anyway for contradicting myself. now, I don't think this is that strong a point because he outlined the reasoning for it, but I think it's more likely to come from a scum POV of determining what reads you want to push and coming up with the reasoning later. I think a town player would be more likely to just analyze the interactions and openly declare "xxx probably doesn't make sense as scum with the others" instead of analyzing a bunch of interactions and sometime later going "o wait, this guy is scum anyway even though the interactions point to him being town".

this is even more so the case given that at the end of the wall, he called all 5 of his initial pool scum anyway. the result of this is that we get a post that gets basically nowhere, and actively goes _against_ what it was trying to accomplish at the start. it's scum posting a bunch of words, but not actually drawing any conclusions from it.

You're number one scum read became a town read. Really. Why is that?

"genuine waffling"

Since when was waffling aka non-content-posting a basis for town clearing? Fabricated justification.

this is not indicative of what SB actually did. SB had been pretty clearly hinting (425) since I responded to his initial vote on me that my response was fine and that he didn't suspect me anymore, and that he was just leaving the vote on as a placeholder. this occurred before Sky_Paladin even caught up.

(incidentally, he completely left 425 out of both of his catchup posts, which indicates he might have missed it, but this is the kind of thing I would expect someone to pick up on if they were actually attempting to cross-reference the reasons behind their push, which again indicates he was just coming up with reasons to push someone without caring if they were true)

this wasn't SB taking his "number-one" scum read and reversing it on the basis of "genuine waffling", it was SB taking a null read and finding something town about it later. it reads more like scum coming up with a throwaway reason to call someone scum instead of town legitimately thinking this.

I don't think ALL of you are scum. I just think SOME of you are scum.

You mean like when Kilga voted five players?

this is a pretty big contradiction. he's claiming that a town player can think that not all of their scum reads are scum, but completely ignores the fact that Kilga is doing the exact same thing and instead calls him scum for what is equivalent to having a lot of scum reads. he doesn't care that what Kilga is doing here can come from town because he's just scum BS'ing. I also have no idea what he was aiming to accomplish with this question in the first place - it's a pretty throwaway question that isn't relevant to anything - so it reads as nothing more than a deflection.

Basically SB is voting me because I voted him. It's OMGUS.

this reads like nothing more than scum claiming "lol OMGUS" in order to discredit SB's push on him. in addition to the fact that he doesn't justify how SB's push is OMGUS or why OMGUS is scum motivated, "OMGUS" isn't even indicative of what SB's reasoning actually was. SB pretty clearly (498) called him scum for being extremely reactionary and stretching to justify the associatives he was pushing, as well as the fact that this fit more with his scum meta than his town meta.

nothing here attempts to analyze motivation, or figure out what scum actually has to gain by doing most of the things he's calling ppl out for. it's all throwaway reasons that in most cases aren't even true.

my last problem is his reads list. he supposedly had Sakura, Ank, Drezi, and Dan as scum. however, he did, quite literally, nothing to push or

even explain any of those reads

. like, fucking really? he spent all that time walking everyone through why there was supposedly scum in SB and his defenders, but didn't do anything at all to lay out his other scum reads or question anyone outside of that group. I would also expect a town player to be more likely to actually post the reasoning for their reads when they think they're about to die. there's a certain mentality town players have when they think they're dead; they scramble to do every single last possible thing in order to get whatever thoughts they have out. this wasn't like that at all. it was half-hearted. it looked more like scum going through the motions and thinking they would give a reads list as town, so they put up a reads list.

and the other problem is that he had been soft-pushing the Drezi wagon the entire time (start of 620) while actually doing all this. what the actual fuck? I don't even know what to say to that. I could think of possible town explanations, but come the fuck on. it's him adding fire to the main wagon of the day (which incidentally makes me pretty sure Drezi is town if Sky_Paladin is scum here), while not actually pushing him and instead writing a bunch of words that don't do anything and hoping no one calls him on it. I admit it's possible the Drezi read would come from town, but the overall narrative here makes so much more sense with him as scum pushing Drezi as a mislynch to the point where it's almost ridiculous.

---

if you're looking for a tl;dr, these are the strongest points here:

1. contradiction re: Kilga and having multiple scum reads. he says he only thinks *some* of his scum reads are scum, but yells at Kilga for multivoting when it's fairly obvious Kilga's votes represent his scum reads.
2. a lot of arguments that are false and/or inconsistent with information that is in the game thread.
3. soft pushing the Drezi wagon while not actually being on it and instead writing a bunch of stuff that's not relevant to anything.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: SKY_PALADIN

I want to know what zmuffin thinks (because Sky_Paladin is pretty fucking obviously doing the same shit you're accusing Drezi of doing, and I don't know how you don't see this), and I also want Drezi's thoughts on the point I brought up to Shadoweh re: my flip flop on him.

[pieguyn]

(which incidentally makes me pretty sure Drezi is town if Sky_Paladin is scum here)

actually now that I think about it this doesn't actually work; it could be Sky_Paladin declaring a scum read on a partner without doing anything to actually push the wagon. either way, meh

[pieguyn]

Pie, what suddenly prompted you to read my wall if you hadn't done so already? Because it looks more like you wanted to put your toe in to the water by voting Drezi, got called on it by Shadoweh, and then accused me of doing the same thing.

I had skimmed it before without fully reading/cross-referencing it and thought most of it was really weak. I alluded to this in 523 (before I started pushing Drezi) and 721 (before Shadoweh said she didn't like my push). /shrug

and I am going to handwave dismiss it as emotional misrepresentation that aims to mislead by appeal to authority. I'll deal with it later if required.

if you're going to claim "misrep", justify it. I don't mind you not responding to my case, but calling "misrep" without explaining why is the easiest way for scum to discredit pushes made on them.

[pieguyn]

Also I kind of feel like you'll change your mind about everything by the time I get up

if it makes you feel better, I usually don't make cases unless I'm relatively sure about a read. .-.

for the record, I'm pretty sure Kilga's voting principle this game is "vote all my potential scum reads, and don't vote otherwise". if you read it in that context, I think the explanations for all of his votes are fine.

anyway, i think some of your points are either misinterpretations or misguided, and others just seem rather weak to me. i don't think it's anything similar to what drezi was doing (and certainly nothing along the lines of what i was talking about with "forcing reads").

/shrug

if I'm misinterpreting anything, I'm chalking it up to his posts being impossible to interpret. outside the question to Kilga (which I'm still meh on. if you look at the Kilga read in his reads list, and his recent response to me, I think he is pushing it as a reason for him supposedly being scum here), I'm checking it again and I'm not sure how I could be misinterpreting anything, outside maybe the first point, but if you look at the wall and look at the next line after that, the implication there was that SB was no longer scum reading him when I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case.

like, he's saying stuff like "SB's vote on me is OMGUS", when it's not and SB pretty clearly explained the reasoning behind his vote. only thing I can think of is that he's town who thinks it's a good idea to exaggerate his pushes for whatever reason, or town who isn't properly reading, in which case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(and no, this is not me changing my mind on Sky_Paladin, since otherwise I'd bet cash money he'd walk in here and claim that is what this is)

I've read your response, you emphasized/elaborated on your side of things again, but we had made our points already, it'd be just repeating ourselves all over if I started replying there (not that I'm unwilling, but seemed rather fruitless, and noone wants to read any more of that anyway).

I would. in particular, I don't see where you've addressed at any point the idea you had read through the entire game and had nothing to ask anyone about, and that's the major thing I'm interested in.

[pieguyn]

there's a lot of vigs in this game. o.o I also have a spell card that allows me to vig someone under a certain condition (which I won't claim).

under normal circumstances, SB's vig claim would fuck with my read on him, but this makes it at least 4 vigs so far. I'm starting to consider the possibility of a scum vig in this game. :/

[pieguyn]

SB

*Sky_Paladin

[pieguyn]

man, yall don't know how to read walls. here:

I also have a spell card that has a very friendly sounding name that is actually a vig shot. I don't want to say if it's a day/night shot. I also have other spell cards that sound incredibly lethal but aren't.

Which players have claimed vig?

Relentless/me/Sky_Paladin outright claimed it and notsci blatantly hinted at it earlier.

[pieguyn]

On a separate note, I'd like everyone to claim if they got their first pick. I see absolutely no harm in doing so, while there is potentially some value in it.

<- got my first pick

So like, That kilga point in Pieguyn's wall was dubious, but the rest checked out.

clarificaton: is this you saying you agree with the rest of what I'm saying, or that it's not suspicious?

[pieguyn]

Despite what I've said, I'm kind of getting cold feet on this because I think his explanation for why he thought he was vigged sort of makes sense and so I think that his reaction looks better, and the explanations for his reads aren't /great/ but they're there and you can tell that there's some kind of thought process there. What he crumbed also roughly matches up with what I got from my spellcard. I can also sort of see how his ridiculous logic makes sense coming from town who isn't really differentiating bad play from scum play very well considering he has half the game as scum.

usually scum don't go out of their way to lie about character/spell card flavor, if that's what this is. the only time it would be somewhat necessary is if they want to leave out a scum-indicative spell card that they don't want to make up a fake use for

ridiculous logic is a null tell at best. if he uses it as town, he's going to attempt to imitate it as scum. I think the logic he's using is scummy moreso bc a lot of what he's saying is outright wrong, and should be obviously so to anyone who's reading the game. he's not attempting to go anywhere with it, he's just posting words without actually believing them. like, look at this:

Your vote on me feels strongly of an OMGUS because of how unimpressive/unsubstantiated it is.

I will concede that

this may be so

. My vote was rushed because hey, ten minutes before work, and I was late for work anyway.
I feel that your scumminess is largely in your dealings with me and I

can

see why you might think I'm not dissuading you because I have not directly engaged you until now. I just completed an ISO which you can review below and there is no slam dunk Kilga-is-scum. I just feel that you're lying and that if you were serious about scum-Sky you would have engaged me rather than just sniped at me.

Basically SB is voting me because I voted him. It's OMGUS.

Do better.

he fucking knows OMGUS isn't a scum tell, yet he tried to discredit your push on him as "lol OMGUS" when it wasn't at all. he doesn't actually believe what he's saying, he's just throwing every single possible accusation he can at you and hoping no one figures out what he's doing.

and this one:

the point about being "reckless" is more of a straw man than an actual point.

How would

you

describe Serene Forests backflip on SB?

the only scum read I have is Sky_Paladin but at this point the only reasoning behind it is I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning.

Pie has also clarified that she has some issues with Serene but doesn't see Serene's actions as scummy at this point. She's confused her story here; originally she was saying my vote was bad because I said SB was reckless.

"Why are you confused about why you voted?" -> Because you are scum.

he acknowledged earlier that my vote on him was for the exact reason I said here (voting Serenes for being reckless when it wasn't), but then goes back and tries to claim I'm "changing my story" - despite the fact he explicitly asked me earlier how I was interpreting Serenes' post if I didn't think it was reckless.

it's poor play at best (and I don't mean this personally at all; I just mean to say if he's town here he's clearly forgetting about a lot of stuff and not actually checking if anything he's pushing is correct or not), and completely contrived at worst.

I do not think the way he reacted to the dayvig is scummy (and before he tries to come in and claim this is me changing my story again, I wasn't aware of his RL situation when I said it was scummy. now that I am, it checks out), but I don't think it's town either. the content in the reads list is also not telling either way.

there's nothing town there. /shrug

seriously, if you think I'm misinterpreting anything here, I'd really like if you could walk me through it. I've tried looking through his posts again and I literally could not see how I'm misinterpreting anything, besides possibly the point re: Rylai. everything I'm saying is in direct response to stuff he is saying, and I don't get how it could be interpreted otherwise. convince me I'm wrong.

[pieguyn]

I am just voicing my disapproval of the wagon in a teasing manner shhhhhhhhhhhh

I think his one readslist is really weird to come from scum if we have scum in our group which is why I am not voting him

what is weird about it? he has 9 fucking scum reads, and he isn't actually hard pushing anyone in our neighborhood. do you actually think he wouldn't put any of his buddies as scum at all if he was scum here?

[pieguyn]

oh btw @SB

usually scum don't go out of their way to lie about character/spell card flavor, if that's what this is.

clarification: this is moreso a property of FG's previous Touhou UPick games than something I'd expect to hold true in general. I'm pretty sure in every single one scum true claimed their character, and I don't remember scum making up any spell card they didn't actually have.

[pieguyn]

i would like it if someone were to vig rylai tonight, or at least strongly consider it before deciding, "nah, i do what i want" and shooting a strong town role. thanks in advance

oh, and I second this

[pieguyn]

been busy as shit recently. I have huge conflicting feelings about Sky_Paladin. he's posting even more shit that's blatantly false (and I have no idea how, if he actually cared about meta-diving Sakura, he would have looked at that newbie game and completely failed to notice the time stamps saying it was from 2 years ago), and if he really thought my wall didn't hold up "under the most basic scrutiny", I don't get why he never bothered addressing why. as Ank said, it feels more like it's coming from a position of trying to posture/discredit than actually believing what he's saying. however, I don't mind most of the conclusions he drew from it, and the way certain people are interacting with the wagon is giving me bad gut vibes.

I think Dan might actually be scum. I'm looking through his posts again and I don't see the town in them; he has a few scum reads, but I don't get the impression he's actually putting any effort into pushing any of his targets, as opposed to sitting around and looking like he's doing stuff.

same with notsci. I'm aware he's busy as shit right now, but his reads feel half-hearted as fuck (ex: the way he appeared to be certain Sky_Paladin was town, apparently to the point of giving up his town reads on Sakura/me, and then posturing to reverse it apparently based on 1 post which didn't seem too out of the ordinary for Sky_Paladin).

also I have gut-town on Rylai, but I don't feel strongly about it

:/

[pieguyn]

zmuffin, what do you think about Dan/notsci atm?

[pieguyn]

Hi.

[pieguyn]

UNOFFICIAL VC

ooba [6] - Kilgamayan, thdgkdms, Sakura Hana, GuyInFreezer, notscience, Kagami
notscience [0] -
Malakittens [0] -
Shadoweh [0] -
GuyInFreezer [0] -
pieguyn [0] -
Sakura Hana [1] - Kilgamayan
Ankamius [0] -
Katsuki [0] -
SXTLHGaiden [0] -
ActionDan [0] -
thdgkdms [0] -
SB [0] -
Sky_Paladin [6] - Kilgamayan, pieguyn, Ankamius, SB, ActionDan, Drezi
Drezi [7] - Kilgamayan, zMuffinMan, Rylai Crestfall, Sky_Paladin, ooba, Shadoweh, Katsuki
Kilgamayan [0] -
Rylai Crestfall [0] -
zMuffinMan [1] -
Kagami [1] -


Not Voting [3] - SXTLHGaiden, Malakittens, Sakura Hana

[pieguyn]

I have no fucking idea what to do. I have gut-town on Drezi's recent posts - some people (like myself) would not even attempt to fake getting pissed off at a game enough to replace out. however, it's entirely gut, soooooooo

I would rather switch to Drezi only to prevent an ooba lynch (or a no lynch) from occurring as opposed to having strong feelings he's scum.

[pieguyn]

You weren't guaranteed to be lynched at any point in this game (and even at this late hour, you aren't the only viable wagon). People backed off of you after your claim and gave you plenty of room to participate. I don't see where this apathetic attitude is coming from if you're town.

and fwiw I do agree with this to some extent, but I don't find it *extremely* compelling. the alternative is that he's town who had saw you pushing him/most of the consensus going that way and basically convinced himself there was nothing he could have done to get out of getting lynched, which doesn't seem 100% unbelievable even if I don't like where his attitude is.

/shrug

maybe I'm just biasing here because Sky_Paladin's recent posts are fucking shit and I don't even want to think about how they could come from a town player or why a town player would find it an acceptable method of playing

[pieguyn]

Hey Pie, while I appreciate you are having a hard time voting for your scum buddy, could you please refrain from calling my posts shit if you aren't going to bother to indicate what you don't like about them?

there's not much value in expanding on it this late in the day, especially when a lot of it is related to playstyle. prob tomorrow

however, as a quick example, the first half of the sentence I'm quoting

[pieguyn]

#YOLO

vote: Drezi

[pieguyn]

There's actually a progression I can follow with him not believing the claim, for starters. But also this isn't a clear, black-and-white thing you'd think of as a town tell, especially since it's not even noticeable as a town tell unless people know scum know their team's role PMs.

fwiw I don't think it's a town slip either, but I admit it's probably me confbiasing up the ass. his angle here if he's scum is to just come up with as much bullshit as possible without giving a shit if it's true - so I could see it as him just searching for whatever reason he could to paint Drezi as scum without caring if anyone calls him on it. (not to say he's scum for it, but I'm taking it as null)

for posterity's sake, the problem I'm currently having with both of Dan/notsci is the way they handled the Sky_Paladin wagon. in particular, I strongly dislike how notsci appeared to be certain Sky_Paladin was town (based on a really weak reason) and then flip flopped based on one post (915) which didn't strike me as exceedingly scummy.

so, meh. prob more worth looking into tomorrow

[pieguyn]

also I really really really would prefer a Drezi lynch over an ooba lynch at this point

one thing I forgot to mention (@Sakura) is that ooba throwing out town reads and being way more confident in them than you'd expect isn't a good reason for scum reading him. he did this the last time I played with him with notsci despite notsci being a huge lurkfuck and multiple people claiming he was playing to his scum meta (and hey, he was half right. notsci wasn't group scum) and me.

[pieguyn]

fuck, i forgot NS was in the game. we should flash wagon him.

you have a scum read on NS?

i'm tossing up how likely it is that fakegod included a red herring "this is too weak to be a scum role" scum role in this game (i know he likely included one, i just don't know if this would be it, it's almost too weak)

Patchouli from the first game? I'm pretty sure I remember some spec that that role was too weak to be coming from scum.

[pieguyn]

that role wasn't actually that weak, it just had conditions attached to it

the role drezi is claiming is legitimately weak.

the only thing i can liken it to with any previous scum roles is varsoon's role in the last game but he was a godfather, so meh

strictly speaking, it's possible his role is more nuanced than that and the race cop is only a part of his legitimate role (unless there's proof otherwise and I missed it)

I still don't have strong feelings Drezi is scum either way, but part of me just doesn't care because I absolutely do not want a no lynch today and I have somewhat of a town read on ooba's slot. :/

(also it sure as hell was really weak as the last scum remaining. he couldn't even NK anyone after a certain point -.-)

[pieguyn]

^L-1

[pieguyn]

Also i'm liking how that Neptune avatar turned out.

:3

VOTE: Drezi

Scanned drezi's iso. Hes flipping town.

:/

if you had that huge a town read on him, why didn't you say anything about it before?

[pieguyn]

o, fair enough

I don't think he's scum for it, rather I would really have wanted to see an elaboration on that earlier if he felt that strongly about it.

p-edit: wait, seriously?

[pieguyn]

the fact he clearly was here when all this shit was going down (as indicated by him coming in almost immediately post hammer) and didn't do anything at all makes me feel at least somewhat optimistic he's not just trolling

KYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[pieguyn]

Drezi scum flip makes me feel a hell of a lot better about my recent thoughts about the gamestate. part of the reason I eventually just went #YOLOSWAG420 and voted him was that both Dan and notsci were both off his wagon.

[pieguyn]

on phone, haven't read fully yet, but #REKT

will be back tonight

[pieguyn]

although in response to the post directly above me, I currently think Dan is scum. he has some scum reads, but there is no hard push behind any of them, and a lot of his stances are really easy/safe. the only real push was the one on Kagami, but there was less effort there all game than Kagami's push back right at the end of the day.

also I feel better about Sky and I have a town read on SB

p-edit: ninjad like 5 times

[pieguyn]

1. I'm the one who gave Sky_Paladin the time bomb N1. one of my abilities is that I can force someone to use a day card the following day, and if they don't use one, they die. if they don't have any, I'm notified as such.

I'm extremely sorry I didn't claim this yesterday. I was on phone for the duration of the entire game day, was planning on claiming it, but wanted to get to a comp first and was not expecting the day to end in 4 fucking hours. I'm also going to apologize in advance to Sky_Paladin for when he reads my neighborhood in postgame bc I got really pissed off in there after thinking he'd vig me. -.-

2. notsci shot one of Dan/Mala last night. I'm guessing he shot Dan.

3. notsci lied about being unroleblockable - he dies if he gets RB'ed. he claimed this in the neighborhood last night and said SB would be fucked if he died last night as a result.

this is one explanation for him dying last night, but I don't think it makes SB scum. the other explanation I can think of is that his kill got redirected onto himself.

[pieguyn]

as for reads, Dan is obviously scum and I'm pretty sure Mala is scum with him. one thing I saw - that might not mean anything but I'm noting it - is Sakura/Dan/Mala all had vague town reads on each other that basically went unexplained; I also don't like anything Mala did this game and her recent posting doesn't change that.

I'm not sure who the 4th is at this point. I don't get where the town reads on Shadoweh are coming from, but meh. also my town read on SB is based entirely around in-thread play and not anything he did in the neighborhood.

[pieguyn]

the other explanation I can think of is that his kill got redirected onto himself.

actually thinking about it again this doesn't work given his kill fails if he hits town

which means he probably died due to being roleblocked and his kill fizzled out for whatever reason. either way, we can't tell fuck all from it, even discounting any other possible explanations for him dying that aren't obvious

[pieguyn]

actually I'll just do this. I'm about to pass out any second now, so more tomorrow.

TOWN(S->W): SB, Sky_Paladin, thdg*, Ank <gap> Kilga, Kagami, Rylai
{Shadoweh, Katsuki-slot, ooba-slot, GIF*}
SCUM(W->S): Mala <gap> Dan

[pieguyn]

i notice i'm not on that list

initially on N2 I had another town category above the one SB was in that consisted solely of notsci and you :p

this isn't really factoring in interactions. based on what I remember, I agree Kagami's interactions with either Sakura or Dan don't make sense as scum x scum.

I haven't really minded anything Ank's done this game. most of the things he's chosen to comment on this game have made a lot of sense to me, and I generally like the pushes he's made. I remember liking the reasoning behind the Kilga push a lot even though I disagreed with it. there's also meta involved here, which I'm not interested in elaborating on primarily bc it's almost impossible for me to explain and bc I'm worried he'd be able to break it after finding out what it was, but on a general level, I don't feel like he's pushing an agenda with any of the pushes he made, as opposed to generally being quiet but poking at things when he sees smth that's off.

run me through why Shadoweh is town?

[pieguyn]

I got my results back and Mala really does have no cards left. I'm inclined to think that this means town because just a card toss doesn't seem like very much as a scum role? I guess there could've been something used on night 1 but meh.

this isn't a good reason for reading Mala as town (and I'm not confbiasing up the ass this time). it's easily possible she has a scum role that has multiple _abilities_, but only 1 card.

[pieguyn]

I'm rereading ooba and I'm actually really not happy with ooba's posts. I need to go back and reread D1 sometime later bc I'm pretty sure Sakura had a scum read on him for the majority of D1.

I still don't like Mala. the thing that bugs me about her is that she has continued to do basically nothing this game - she's here now, but is not scum hunting as opposed to spending all her time raging at misshooting thdg. I think it looks more like coasting scum in that she did nothing town-motivated, then when she gets called on it she attempts to ATE all over the place to get out of it instead of stepping her game up. it also sucks that she didn't adequately explain either the Dan or Sakura reads bc we have no way of knowing whether the reasoning makes sense or if she's just scum defending a partner, but I don't like how she calls Sakura for "the flow of her posts" given that's a large majority of where my scum read on her came from.

also, I think her vig soft (when she wasn't remotely a vig) was intended to get everyone to read her as town, in turn allowing her to coast further, but this is speculation

[pieguyn]

I'm meh on Katsuki. I don't like that after Sakura scum flip he continued railing on Sky without any hint of reevaluation. besides that, I haven't had a problem with anything he did. can someone who's scum reading Katsuki walk me through it (or link if I missed it)?

[pieguyn]

:/

what you're saying makes sense. the only question is why the hell Katsuki/ooba would _both_ lie about this and confirm themselves as scum.

like

that's just a really fucking stupid play because they have literally nothing to gain at all by doing it, unless you're arguing that they collectively slipped up and botched their fake claim, which on second thought I could actually see happening.

[pieguyn]

then there's still the question of why he'd make up a neighborize of all things if he wanted to make anything up. the only explanation is he's going for "lol scum wouldn't neighborize scum", but that wouldn't mean shit bc people wouldn't actually fail to consider he'd neighborize a partner.

p-edit: didn't ooba literally say they discussed stuff (e.g. Sakura ISO) in the QT on N1?

[pieguyn]

cos I went back and checked and that's the only place I saw either of Katsuki/ooba reference talking about stuff on N1, soooo if the neighborize is fake ooba is lying too

[pieguyn]

yes, that is what I meant when I said they may have collectively slipped up and botched their fake claim. although I'm still trying to think about if they'd actually go for an angle that's that obviously subject to WIFOM

(happy belated scum day btw \o/)

[pieguyn]

Sorry, they could have talked N2 but that would imply Cupcake was lying about not having enough time to even read the game.

this imo is the most compelling point. he literally continued saying he didn't have enough time for the game through today.

sooooooo

either way, I want to see what ooba/Katsuki say when they come back before proceeding

[pieguyn]

also didn't ooba literally confirm Katsuki had neighborized him _on N1_? (1651)

granted that doesn't matter anymore given he's just going to say it didn't start until N2 regardless of alignment, and this would still be consistent with that, but either way

[pieguyn]

I just don't understand why Katsuki would feel the need to lie about the neighborizer working in the same night. what *magical scum ability* did he feel that much of a need to use on ooba N1 of all people?

[pieguyn]

their actions would be tracked*
not their tracks would be monitored

yeah, and if he was that paranoid about he he could have just not done anything instead

I'm pretty sure if I was scum in that situation I'd just take the easy way out and do that instead of attempting to bullshit my way out of it with the neighborizer. I'd at least be very skeptical of a same-night neighborizer claim working, since same-night roles are generally shit and the kind of things I'm always skeptical of when they actually pop up in games.

not really putting too much weight on the above angle bc he obviously wouldn't have known there would not be a same-night neighborizer in the game and so it's possible he just didn't realize what he was doing wouldn't work, but meh. this needs to be cleared up

[pieguyn]

I'm trying to find if FG posted his opinion on same-night roles somewhere. I'm almost positive I posted somewhere that same-night roles are fundamentally shit bc they affect the dynamics of the night, and FG held the same opinion. however, this might just be me making shit up, so ignore this until I'm actually able to find it.

also fwiw @Ank, this is at least 99999% more compelling than most of the other "scum slips" I usually see pushed. we wait for ooba/Katsuki, then go from there.

[pieguyn]

no i'm saying IF cupcake and ooba are scum together, he could have deliberately done it (knowing he'd be tracked) for wifom purposes and nothing else

i do not think they expected the clusterfuck that was N1 to happen for them (where one scum died and another was sorta found via my ability) - i think it was setting up for something way down the line

fair enough. I'm operating under the assumption ooba would be town here bc setting up for that kind of WIFOM is not smth I'd ever go out of my way to do (given I'd expect most players to realize the possibility of scum neighborizing a partner), but it makes sense.

[pieguyn]

:p

operating under the assumption as in thinking about why Katsuki would do this under the scenario that ooba is town, not necessarily thinking ooba is town from it. either way I don't disagree

[pieguyn]

FG games are usually low on scum iirc. I'm guessing 4 scum, but planning around worst-case scenario (5 scum). I feel more strongly about this now that I've seen Dan's spell card and that I know there are ways for 3 ppl to die in one night.

[pieguyn]

run me through why Shadoweh is town?

[pieguyn]

@_@

why can't you do what you did with Flubber in O569 and actually explain it in detail?

[pieguyn]

Yukari = Katsuki->ooba
Myouren = ooba/Kagami/Rylai
SDM = me/SB/notsci/Sakura

[pieguyn]

everyone outside this pool i (think i) have good reason to call town:

{ankamius, shadoweh, ooba, kilgy, rylai, cupcake, mala}

i want to slowly narrow down this list to the point where i have at most 5 people in it, preferably less though

want me to elaborate fully on my Ank read? I'm pretty sure this is his town game, but can't be fucked to elaborate right now unless there's demand for it.

one example off the top of my head, GIF saying the way Ank developed reads here is similar to the way he saw him develop reads while hydra'ing is also one of the meta-based reasons I alluded to earlier for town reading him. Ank and I have hydra'd before as well and I came to the same conclusion as GIF, although I don't put as much credence in it as GIF seems to be doing as opposed to other reasons.

[pieguyn]

I at least read parts of it \o/ enough to see THE PLAN at least

reading through the rest of your posts and I disagree that Mala's ATE is a town tell. it's a textbook scum play to just ATE in response to any suspicion on you in an attempt to get out of it, and nothing she posted was particularly unfakeable. it'd come off a lot more genuine if there was any effort to actually scum hunt there.

what in Relentless/Dan interactions are you reading as not scum x scum? I'm seeing a weak push from Relentless, and a vote from Dan followed by him backing off almost immediately, but none of it looks particularly telling to me.

[pieguyn]

what do you make of Mala's magical town reads on Dan/Sakura with hardly any justification whatsoever? and if you're looking for ppl Dan generally avoided taking stances on, I don't think he took one on Mala at all anywhere. (there was also him poking at Kagami for her read on Mala, but I don't think this means anything)

[pieguyn]

as for sakura, i dont think i remember that being explained but eh

it was literally just her claiming "k sakura's town" with no reasoning at all added

I feel pretty strongly she's scum here. stuff I generally didn't like that was specific to her play without regard to associatives:

1. the way she approached the notsci read. on a general level, it felt like she was trying to avoid and/or discredit him as opposed to trying to sort him (ex. basically all of it was "your read is wrong, pls reconsider"). this is even more so the case when she didn't even think notsci was town. notsci endorses this point and that was part of the reason behind his scum read on her.
2. I think her lack of content in this case is actually scummy. her D1, for instance, consisted of her primarily talking about how she _intended_ on sorting the game, but she didn't put much of a focus in actually elaborating on any of her reads. I think it looks more like Dan in that she's posting a lot of stuff to *look* like she's doing smth without actually doing anything.
3. the vig soft when she wasn't actually a vig, which is smth I know she's done as scum before. I don't believe she'd actually think her role would make her confirmed town as town.

hypothetically, if we could get a 3rd lynch today, do you think it'd be worth lynching her?

[pieguyn]

ok so I'm skimming through Mala's ISO from FFXAU where she got mislynched in order to get an impression of what town-Mala off her game might look like. if you so much as look at it, there's a hell of a lot more engagement with other players, elaboration on reads, and she actually goes out there and pushes people (compared to what she's been doing in this game where she doesn't go out of her way to engage with anyone, really), even when she's supposedly claiming her play is poor.

-.-

this feels way too fucking obvious. either that, or FFXAU isn't a good example of her being off her game

[pieguyn]

FTR, Malakittens did actually explain the Sakura read in the PT. It was one of the things I specifically asked her on N1.

. . .

@MALA, get the fuck in here and explain why you didn't elaborate on the Sakura read in the game thread. what benefit did you think there was for _deliberately_ withholding that info, especially if you weren't convinced both of your neighbors were town?

also interested in what her thoughts actually were, although I don't particularly see myself changing my mind about it

[pieguyn]

Also Mala should maybe uhhh post a content post? I really thought one would have happened by now and I'm very emotionally volatile and prone to listening to people like pie when they're being emotional too. It would make me feel guilty to lynch two people arguing for each other while the third real option is absent.

do you think it'd be worth lynching Mala if we could get a 3rd lynch today?

I was serious about that, but I don't know if it's theoretically a sound idea.

[pieguyn]

I also explained why notty's shitty attack on me felt scum motivated and why my AD read was really weak.

here's the problem, though

for supposedly thinking NS was scum, you really didn't do much to sort him or do anything to divine his alignment. it felt extremely reactionary. you didn't ask him any sort of question that was designed to extract information nor make any kind of push on him - it was all "do a reset on me" and claiming his push was bad/he was being arrogant.

convince me I'm wrong. what did you do to sort his alignment or attempt to put pressure on him?

I wasn't Deliberately withholding it. I was trying to get more than what was just a gut reaction to a few of sakura's posts that felt like it was coming from my same mindset at the time. My obv read on her was flawed. I admit that, but at the time it was better than having no reads at all.

which posts, specifically?

[pieguyn]

actually just run me through what your thoughts in the neighborhood were

[pieguyn]

oh, I completely misread the context of one of those posts -.-

ugh

what was the purpose of you unvoting notsci back on D1 if you thought his push on you was scum motivated?

[pieguyn]

I'm trying to debate which of {Mala, Katsuki} I want lynched along with Dan. the main redeeming thing in favor of Mala is that N1 in the SDM neighborhood, notsci had asked me who in that neighborhood he should shoot, and I basically said "I'd prefer a shot outside, but if you shoot someone in here shoot Sakura". Sakura probably would have told the scum team about this, which makes it really counterintuitive for scum Mala to proceed to make a town case in the other neighborhood.

however, I don't think the scum team legit thought Sakura would die - they probably had a counter to the vig which they apparently didn't use on her - and notsci was dead certain Mala was scum.

[pieguyn]

actually, now that I think about it, Mala might have explained her Sakura read before I told notsci to shoot Sakura. so that angle is kind of pointless

p-edit: checking

[pieguyn]

notsci literally said he wasn't going to shoot Mala bc she claimed vanillaizer if targeted (guessing he misinterpreted her softing her remove-all-cards spellcard as that), but that Mala was def scum. ergo, Sakura.

[pieguyn]

....... that actually makes a lot of sense. o.o

I'm still trying to figure out which of {Katsuki, Mala} + AD would be more optimal. looking for opinions on this

[pieguyn]

or rather, what Kagami is saying makes a lot of sense

[pieguyn]

well hold on

notsci had gambited in the neighborhood saying he'd shoot SB near the end of the night. so I could reasonably see scum actually falling for that and not feeling a need to counter his vig shot.

[pieguyn]

OK. I legit don't think whichever one I pick here matters, since I'd guess it's likely we'd double lynch Dan + whichever of {Katsuki, Mala} I don't pick anyway. and I think Mala is more likely to be scum than Katsuki/Relentless.

so, fuck it

Divine Spear "Spear the Gungnir": Malakittens

this only works on ppl who have 0 or 1 spell cards left. if that restriction wasn't there, I obviously would shoot Dan, full stop.

I fucking hate myself for going against consensus here, but my gut won't let me. hopefully this shot isn't terrible either way. :/

[pieguyn]

well shit, guess I shot town

j;lkfasdf;kjalsda;lkjfgadfgaksdfasd;lkjfasdf;kjasldfjasdf f;KLDFSL;JKA;LKDJL;KJFL;J

mala, if you're here, reads?

[pieguyn]

I'd bet cash money Dan is just trolling @_@

it would be fucking awesome if he wasn't and that was a honest reaction, though

[pieguyn]

oh god rofl

[pieguyn]

I don't think this resets the vote count. my role PM didn't say it did, anyway.

[pieguyn]

9'pfs;kaasfljfa;lkjkggggg;gklllljl

ok so double lynch Katsuki/AD is go. sorry mala -.-

[pieguyn]

uuuuuuuuuuuuughhhhhhhhh

i am so fucking shit at this game. this is why i usually like consensus shots.

[pieguyn]

honestly I'd prefer double lynching ooba/Dan, but at this point POE leads me to think both have to be scum anyway.

something just doesn't fucking add up here. :/

[pieguyn]

yo GIF

you wouldn't actually try and fake claim masons as scum with thdg, would you?

[pieguyn]

what do you make of AD forcing the rylai read?

because that seems like too obvious an interaction to me, unless he was going for that angle (too obvious to be scum together).

I don't actually think this is implausible. I'm probably one of the few people who would deliberately go out of my way to put up an immediate townread on a scum partner, but I could easily enough see it as scum x scum.

I don't particularly think there's anything compelling in the Sakura x Rylai interactions either. for the most part I agree with Ank's assessment, plus I don't like how when she first started questioning Rylai she proceeds to question my vote for Rylai. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I think it's slightly more indicative of her not *actually* wanting me to push Rylai along with her.

also I could easily enough see scum Sakura putting Rylai as her one POE read as a partner. I'm pretty sure she's able to be aware of stuff like that on a general level.

[pieguyn]

I've been thinking about this a lot trying to make sense of what's going on here. part of me thinks that Katsuki x ooba is all a town shitfest and scum are sitting back and capitalizing on it.

I want to go back and reread Kagami/{Dan, Sakura} interactions in depth - that's really the only reason I have for town reading her, but I'm not actually sure if the interactions there don't make sense as scum x scum. besides that, I have reasons of varying degrees to town read everyone else in the game. /shrug

[pieguyn]

wasn't Shadoweh using the 3/3 card? I thought we had enough votes already. o.o

[pieguyn]

pieguyn [0] -
Katsuki [1] - thdgkdms
SB [1] - ActionDan
Kilgamayan [0] -
Sky_Paladin [0] -
Shadoweh [0] -
Rylai Crestfall [0] -
Kagami [0] -
ooba [4] - Sky_Paladin, Rylai Crestfall, Kagami, Kilgamayan
Ankamius 0] -
thdgkdms [0] -
ActionDan [3] - Katsuki, GuyInFreezer, Kilgamayan

[pieguyn]

vote: Dan

should only need 4 votes for the 3/3 card to work given it takes 7 to lynch

and yeah, it's pretty much impossible to get another wagon going at this point. it's more worth looking at tomorrow if it's still relevant

[pieguyn]

there's only like 12 hours left

either way it's not enough time for me to do enough rereading to feel particularly strongly about any of this

[pieguyn]

if this is tomorrow game time, sure

assuming I'm not lazy and don't just ask someone else to do the same thing

[pieguyn]

Pie, when and why did you start town reading me?

near the end of D1 I started considering the possibility most of the logical inconsistencies I was seeing was more a playstyle conflict than anything alignment-indicative, although I for the most part kept silent about it and still hated most of what you actually did

after Sakura scum flip I basically figured there was no way you could be scum here. even if you account for the possibility you'd push her that hard as scum, I thought some specific parts of it were unlikely to be scum x scum (as an example, speaking as the resident Sakura expert, some of the things you pointed out in that meta dive were relevant, ex. that she's a lot more passive as scum than town).

[pieguyn]

we should massclaim, and I'd like to go after everyone besides ppl who are conftown (GIF, SB). it probably doesn't matter that much, though

[pieguyn]

hai ffery ~

[pieguyn]

i came into today expecting walls from pieguy detailing who the last scum is, where all i had to do was tick the checkboxes and sign my name. i am disappointed, pieguy. i am disappointed

I was

relaxing on the last few days of spring break

busy :<

[pieguyn]

first thing I'm thinking is that I'm not sure if Katsuki actually makes sense as scum here, although I'm not sure. it's 4 AM so I'll elaborate later

[pieguyn]

by later i assume you mean much later in the day and not "i'm going to stay up til 8am pondering this"

the sad part is, that's the kind of thing I'd actually do without even realizing it -.-

[pieguyn]

OK

Spoiler: THE RELENTLESS

we should d1 massclaim imo... set-up has wacky roles and no ITP and wasn't checked so it would probably break the game. optimal play but nobody ever does it

.
.
.

VOTE: Serenes Forest
all posts since bad push are focusing on justifying themself. no interested is displayed in other players or developing reads on them. shadoweh vote is useless. I also think the handling of SB's responses is weak, SB just sits there kinda baffled but if Serenes Forest is trying to get a read off him from this weird case they're not doing anything to capitalize on it

the post where Relentless initially starts pushing Serene. the first reason I'm not sure if Katsuki makes sense as scum here is that, if he was, Relentless was distancing from Serenes the entire time he was in the game. starting from here, he puts Serene as his top scum read, and continues pushing them as his only strong scum read throughout the entire game. (374, 379, 447, among others)

this wouldn't be a 100% strong tell by itself, but combined with some other things I'll get into later, I find it to be relevant here. the tl;dr is if he is scum here, he spent basically the entire game distancing from the rest of the scum team, while actually attempting to push to get his "scum reads" (aka the rest of his team) lynched as opposed to sitting around doing fuck all, which is usually what I see most scum do when they try and bus their entire team.

ActionDan #131: is this really all you have to open the game with? like, no opinions on Serenes shenanigans whatsoever?

this would be interesting with all 3 of them as scum, but I'm not sure if it means anything. either way, as I referenced before, this is where he starts pushing Dan.

Hey Relentless I like your avatar.

I actually don't like this. this seems like the kind of thing Sakura would specifically go out of her way to say to a scum partner; as I said before, she's generally aware of, and able to manipulate, minor interactions like this.

Oh i like thdgs the legend

kinda like knowing sb is serious bananas but stating he doesn't know him

? what does this mean

yea, btw dan

Oh i like thdgs the legend

this post implies you knew that thdgkdms plays mafia professionally, are you from the same mafia clan as us?

this exchange struck me as somewhat odd for scum interacting with a partner (the idea being Dan would notice Relentless was from the same site as him pregame if they were scum together), although it's not by any means unfakeable.

also @ActionDan
1) why is Shadoweh's 1st post town at all. I looked up her town meta & she's usually a lot more aggressive when she feels a town-read is being unjustly attacked. even if I think town'd be more forceful here regardless of meta it seems weird that you'd be town-reading her since there's nothing town about that post
2) I would hardly call "could be town" a real read re:GiF. how are you actually reading GiF? do you not have an issue with his post:content ratio?
3) explain town!Rylai Crestfall? Have not found her posts particularly strong. you seem like you're throwing town reads around for no real reason tbh.

will address other posts later; have been skimming but wanted to catch Dan while he's here.

cut: I didn't know Conqueror was Kilgamayan. do you have any links to games where Conqueror played so I can look up his meta?

the last sentence re: waiting for Dan to show up in the game thread doesn't strike me as something someone would care about when attempting to interact with a partner.

I actually think Sakura Hana is pretty scummy at this point just cuz she keeps posting but her reads don't evolve. She's worse about this than GiF at this point, only GiF is at least assertive. A large part of her activity correlated with pieguyn pressuring her, too, and there was a line pieguyn said about one of her posts looking "forced" and tbh that's the way I've felt about most of her emotional appeals.

also, explain Sakura scum? I may actually agree there but want to know what you're seeing.

forgot to remove this after getting to pieguyn's explanation. I think his reasons for taking back his scumread on her are pretty WIFOM though.

pushing Sakura. this was p soon after my initial push on her, it had came after Kagami had said she found Sakura suspicious and after notsci declared a town read on her/I backed off and said my thoughts on her were mixed. it was before GIF/Dan had declared town reads on her.

it's somewhat gut, but it feels like a really weird move to distance here in the way that he did. given Sakura/my history, the gamestate at that point was that if I wind up with a scum read on Sakura, I get her lynched, full stop. it was still up in the air how far I'd push Sakura at that point, and doing this has the effect that it doesn't actually give him any town cred from it in the scenario where Sakura does get lynched, given he's pushing it more from the sidelines as opposed to taking much initiative over it. essentially, I don't think it makes sense to soft-distance when it was either Sakura gets lynched or she doesn't; usually when I see scum pulling that it's in response to a wagon that kind-of-maybe might go through but might not so that they look good if it does but allow for the possibility the wagon would get disbanded. given he has no control over the latter possibility, the utility in taking this stance as scum is removed.

the second post has the effect that it explicitly encourages me to continue pushing Sakura instead of backing off, which also ties into this.

he doesn't mention Sakura again after this, which kind of makes me think it might have just been a basic case of flow-bussing and then backing off later and I'm reading way too much into this, but overall I think it makes slightly more sense as town.

I think his reasons for taking back his scumread on her are pretty WIFOM though.

the ultra paranoid side of me thinks that Relentless should not call me "he" here unless he had seen other people who are familiar with me (everyone on the scum team, but primarily Sakura) calling me "he" in the scum QT. I'm fully aware this is a shit argument and I'm not putting any weight on it whatsoever, I just thought it sounded really cool. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LOLOLOL

IN SPOOKYSPANISH WE TRUST

VOTE: SKY

didn't like this. Dan and ooba spent a lot of time trying to push Sky on D1, and ooba spent a lot of time post-Sakura flip trying to throw shit at Sky and stop him from being fully "cleared". likewise, I absolutely hated the way he just kept pushing Sky on D2 without any kind of reevaluation, despite the fact Sakura flipping scum made it obvious Sky was not scum. I think the rest of the scum team pushing Sky after Sakura flip is indicative of him being a scum-designated mislynch target, even after Sakura flipped, and this fits in line with what I'd expect a 4th player to do there.

It's probably a bit late now to state that ooba said he was a beloved princess so um we probably should get ready for an extended night.

the thing that I'm wondering with this is that, if this was a scum play to save ooba, I don't understand why he didn't come out with this earlier instead of dicking around saying "ooba's claim is town" the entire day and only coming out with this right at deadline when it was a given Dan + one of {him, ooba} would get lynched regardless of anything that happened. the only thing I could really think of that he'd be going for here is that people would hopefully take him claiming ooba's claim was town at face value, but that doesn't make much sense bc he didn't really have any credibility nor did anyone trust him.

like, with both of these posts:

Typically one neighborizes with intent to get a better read on the player.

What was the intent of neighborizing ooba, then? It sounds like you discussed absolutely nothing relevant to the game, and you didn't claim your abilities to your intended mason partner.

I have no idea what players you've been playing with but if you're neighborizing someone with "the intent to get a better read on the player" then you're playing the role wrong.

Why did ooba have to "prod" you for reads?

Why didn't you lay out your thoughts as openly as possible to your high-confidence town neighbor?

He didn't prod me so much as he simply asked me lol

In all honesty I was absent for most of the night and ended up drunk posting in the QT. Though my bitching was real that I didn't really have any reads so far this game. Ooba knows about the players I want dead which were muffin and skypal so.

Other stuff shared with Ooba is stuff that I'm having FG delete for me post-game so, but it is essentially the reasoning as to why I enjoy QTs and not game threads (I've kindly asked ooba not to share either which he won't unless he's blatantly scum trying to get me lynched).

Oh and ooba claimed to me so pretty sure I'm town based simply on the fact that he's not dead yet (I'm not gonna elaborate on his role in case scum are dense).

Ok so some thoughts..

oh now is a good time to disclaim that I'm mostly skipping stuff that occurred before I replaced in because I never read prior.

twhateverletterslily seems really lazy and willing to just go after whatever low hanging fruit there is today.

Skimmed Rylai and CM's done little outside of sheeping popular reads. Her ISO is surprisingly devoid of content. She's pushed ooba and I today while saying very little (aside from "

scumslips are easy to make"

which is lols (I've been lynched for scumslips as town before though, which is why this is a very lazy argument that tends to be used by scum to push mislynches over scumhunting town)).

kilgy: initial read is that given his stance at beginning of D2, he has a good chance of being scum simply based on the players he's pushing. Basically from an outsider's perspective, if the pool of {Katsuki, Ooba, Mala} are all town then scum are all in comfortable positions right now. However he seems willing to re-evaluate which turned around my initial gut reaction so I don't think he makes a good lynch today.

Ank: Skimmed, read right now is probably town if CM/Rylai is town (unless bussing), but he is tying CM hard to AD, which is worth noting.

Shadoweh: Not gonna skim her but I don't think she's scum given how she's tried to reach out to me today and she's seeing certain things like how I am (like you being a douche earlier in the day no offense muffin). I don't think you can call what she's doing as buddying, but I have a tendency to townread those who try to reach out to me so. She's also trying to understand my mentality and has been fairly accurate on a number of statements throughout the game which is not something scum (outside of kanye but he's a cheeky mofo who knows how to work me and knows my town weaknesses) would usually do.

Sky: Goes without saying I find him scummy for how he sometimes just conveniently leaves out stuff when reading or making arguments. Still want him dead but a lot of it is due to the fact that I just hate his playstyle because it is incredibly scummy.

Ooba: Particular play when scum, meta probably still applies. I also think his claim is town.

Kagami: I really don't like how she's shifted to me. Call it gut but the way she's played today I really would not be surprised if she flipped scum. Everyone seems to be townreading her but please don't just let her slip away if you guys end up lynching all the low-hanging fruit and we all flip town.

pie: um so wtf I missed a dayvig on mala and mala didn't die?

honestly I'd prefer double lynching ooba/Dan, but at this point POE leads me to think both have to be scum anyway.

something just doesn't fucking add up here. :/

In the event that ooba/Katsuki/mala are alltown who's scum? You've made a lot of statements like

"this feels too obvious"

and

"something doesn't add up here"

including that my play doesn't make much sense as scum. Yet at the same time you've also refused to go outside of Kats/Mala today, constantly debating about which you

HAVE

to go with.

^Muffin keep an eye on this one too pls

SB: Skimmed SB doesn't feel like scum to me

GIF: Ok so he's claiming to be informed townies with tlilyletters? Not much to say here other than that if they are still alive late-game one of them needs nuking. That's an easy as fuck fakeclaim to make. Other than that I don't think I really saw anything that tinged my gut (aside from that townbloc).

Mala: Wasn't entirely sure of her until I skimmed #1986. That is a town post. I'm reading #1936 as town as well because that's how I feel but that probably shouldn't be reasoning as to why she's town, but see again the point prior.


So to organize things... I guess for me, outside of AD, we're probably looking at Rylai (if town, then Ank), kagami, pie. At the very least, those are the ones I'm finding most scummy. Everything SP does I feel like it's coming from a scum perspective but at this rate I'm willing to concede that I'm already bias against his slot.

Townreads at this point probably consist of mala, shadoweh, ooba, SB --> kilga. GIF/tlilyletters can reside at the weak town area too for their claim.

These reads are all based on ISOs it was the quickest way I could do this so I might update later if I have the time to go back and skim things in context.

tl;dr - I probably would be happiest with going with RYLAImaiden as our second lynch today.

these would be good places to either outright claim "ooba is beloved, get off him" or otherwise push that ooba was strongly town as a result of his role as oppoesd to just going "hurrdurr I *think* his claim is town". in general, I think the beloved claim would have been done to make people scared to lynch him, and it doesn't make sense from a scum POV for Katsuki as his partner to only tell everyone about this right when the lynch was about to go through.

now that I'm thinking about it more, it is somewhat possible he had planned throughout the game day on doing this whole beloved claim thing right at the end as a weak form of distancing, but meh

tl;dr I think this points more towards Katsuki being town, but I'm not sure. looking for opinions on this.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: RYLAI CRESTFALL

Meh reading is hard it's 4am going to sleep

People I don't feel fond of:
GiF: Definitely hasn't contributed
Sky Paladin: His reasoning for voting SF is based entire of a misconception of SF's posts, and he's trying to push that as a kind of a gotcha kind of thing. He's also accusing SB of being scum for saying SF is town, and he's pushing only this and pretty much just sitting around on everything else.
AD: No

Other things
Mass claiming: lol no
Announcing Spellcards usage: Neither for or against this, meh
SF: Don't like use of meta, but his reasoning for clearing SB are pretty sound to me so
I also agree with other cases on SP, don't mind relentless too much after #248

If this is your reason for suspecting GIF, then what's your opinion on me who hasn't contributed much either?

You're throwing out questions and interactions in the thread, and the way you're using your voting power so far feels sincere, so you're not scum

What is this supposed to mean?

He's only said to vote Shadoweh, and it's extremely frustrating to both play and watch when he does this, especially back in our home forum where 3 day long days is the norm, and I do not look forward to 1 minimalistic post every 4 days, and not accepting this if it happens, so "No"

1. how is "not contributing" a scum tell?

By providing a presence without actually doing anything just adds useless words to the thread while pretending to be

Kagami, Gaiden, Drezi immediately come to mind) and singling out GIF? it feels like you're bullshitting reads here.p

Kagami at least provided questions and stuff, the other 2 I completely forgot existed

2. this is...... explicitly not why SP is accusing SB as scum. SP's reason is clearly not that SB is town reading SF, it's the

reason

for doing so: he thought "scum Serene is more careful" wasn't a good enough reason. how do you get "saying SF is town" from that?

Fair point, still don't buy it

you're aware Serene's reason for clearing SB was entirely based on meta, right?

Like I was saying, I don't like the use of meta but I understand his logic on doing so and it's clear for me

Anyways this post has been sitting here for hours so I'll just put this here for now

Quick thoughts before sleep:

@Pie on SB
Just because I dislike the use of meta doesn't mean I don't accept the use of it, and thinking somebody would try to be less outstanding early in the game as scum sounds reasonable to me, so no I don't agree with the SB scum read, especially if that's all he's going by

Anka: Literally forgot existed, some reads would be nice

Thdgk: Updated reads on Serene and anybody else you think might be scum would be nice

GIF: If you say you only townread, then I could let that slide for now. And not for long.

Notscience: Actually I have no idea what his reads are completely, at least GIF provides something if not much of anything, and I think I'll stick my vote here while waiting for stuff

Actiondan: Cool with since he's actually posting (I also like what he's posting so)

VOTE: Unvote
Vote notscience

Still don't like Sky, but I'd rather keep my vote here while waiting for updated responses from him

I don't like this for a few reasons. first off, Serenes' meta observation (47) on SB was kind of a stretch, and so him calling it clear analysis is meh. second off, I alluded to Sky being a scum-designated mislynch earlier, and this push in particular stood out bc he got the reasoning for it wrong on both counts: Sky wasn't calling SB scum for calling SF town, and Sky was at the very least iirc making pushes elsewhere that were not SB, even if SB was his main focus. then I told him as much, he acknowledges it and continues pushing it anyway. -.-

this is also relevant for the AD read, which I'll get into later.

No real opinion on Sakura throughout this entire thing, I'll have to read more indepth

Going to sleep, but currently waffling so hard on Sky between he's scum and there's no way he can be scum

No real opinion on Serene/ooba, I'll do that tomorrow after work

overall, I think what this is is Rylai-scum struggling to come up with anything substantive to say about his partners. he is usually more than capable of providing reasoning for his reads or otherwise taking stances. all of his reads elsewhere were elaborated on to some extent, or at least had more to it than "no opinion" or "no":

Vote Sky Palladium

Swift as the wolves of Icewrack! No, he's trying to be try hard while sitting in the back burner LYNCH THE SCUM

Quick thoughts before sleep:

@Pie on SB
Just because I dislike the use of meta doesn't mean I don't accept the use of it, and thinking somebody would try to be less outstanding early in the game as scum sounds reasonable to me, so no I don't agree with the SB scum read, especially if that's all he's going by

Anka: Literally forgot existed, some reads would be nice

Thdgk: Updated reads on Serene and anybody else you think might be scum would be nice

GIF: If you say you only townread, then I could let that slide for now. And not for long.

Notscience: Actually I have no idea what his reads are completely, at least GIF provides something if not much of anything, and I think I'll stick my vote here while waiting for stuff

Actiondan: Cool with since he's actually posting (I also like what he's posting so)

VOTE: Unvote
Vote notscience

Still don't like Sky, but I'd rather keep my vote here while waiting for updated responses from him

Caught up reading to page 25, AKA Muffin vs Everybody, what the hell?

VOTE: Unvote

Seems like you picked people off the top of your head to ask for reads, also as for notsci "I have no idea what his reads are

completely

" while that could be said for a bunch of other players just as easily.

They were names that I remembered for having posts and not remembering their reads off the top of my head, yes. And? Sure, I would go through everybody if I had the time.

It looks pretty hypocritical (and as an attempt at appearing to be on top of things) to address GIF with that threatening "I could let that slide for now" tone, while you yourself haven't been doing much.

I chalked up his response to playstyle differences, and I never understood the damn hypocritical argument.

Off topic

If somebody who smokes heavily tells you to not smoke because it'll kill you, does that mean that what he says has no meaning and that you should smoke cigarettes 24/7? Do professionals stunt performers telling you try the stuff they're doing mean you should go out and jump down a building?

/rant

And even then, I could turn it around on you and say that you haven't been doing much (anything), but no because that's not me.

Still you call out Anka saying "you even forgot they existed" (what about me or Gaiden for example for that matter?). What makes the lack of reads from notscience different than the rest you didn't even mention, so that it makes you vote him for?

Because he posted asking people for reads, while I didn't know his reads, which is basically the exact thing you're saying about me right now?????

He gave you an early townread, and you like his posts well, ok.

I don't even know why this is here.

And this feels just as random, like Lily has been focusing on burning down the forest in most of their posts, latest ones included, and even voiced who else might be scum according to them in 253 278 and 280 so ???

I didn't see those and only saw 399, which was a rehash of a way old post, so yeah.

also don't particularly get why Sky_Paladin fell off his radar when afaict Sky_Paladin still hadn't done anything to adequately address his point on him (?)

Put pressure on someone else while waiting for a response. I would vote multiple people too if I had a cool multi-vote power

Generally like/agree with Muffin's posts through this. Although the low hanging fruit thing is hilarious.

I like Anka's 480

Sky's giant wall is utterly laughable. Quick summary is he doesn't like Serene, and everybody who attacked his case must be scum defending his buddy. It's summarizing every post from the 5 people minus Kilga (and Serene to a point) who voted him, then basically saying they did this because they're scum. Hell, his reason for not liking Serene in the wall is terrible.

I can accept that Serene might have thought "Oh, I screwed up, my case on SB is bad" and unvoted. But the sudden flip on to a new wagon screams player is desperate to vote somewhere/anywhere rather than be caught with their hand in the cookie jar. "What is your motivation?" -> because you are scum.

He's basically think he's scum because he went from unvoting someone he didn't think was scum anymore, then voting somebody else. Despite the fact that in 240 he essentially agrees with this.

>_> Uh okay. I'm not sure I understand not being able to find anything more worth doing with one's vote than maintaining an unsubstantiated one, but if the culture here is that such is okay then I'll have to acclimate. I do think using a vote to pressure someone you're not 100% convinced is town is a better use of said vote, though.

He's saying that his play is to use the vote to pressure someone instead of maintaining a worthless vote, which is exactly what he's voting Serene for.

I really like ActionDan's posting, he should really do this more

Don't have a problem with Pieguy's posting

No real opinion on Sakura throughout this entire thing, I'll have to read more indepth

Then subbing out stuff happens and I continue my reading (Yes, I take forever to read and summarize my feelings)

as far as I could tell, literally the only time he made statements like that were when talking about...... Sakura, Serene/ooba, and Dan. he occasionally provided reasoning behind his reads there, namely the reasoning re: Serene at the start of the game, but as far as I could tell he has not made a statement such as this when referring to any player who was town.

Ooba: Idk, figured I'd get a better read on him during night in our PT

this is the next time (after the above 2 reads on Serene/Sakura) he failed at giving a stance on _any_ of his reads - not going to quote every one but there weren't any noncommittal reads again after that up to here. GUESS WHO THIS IS REFERRING TO.

overall this would be a pretty huge coincidence if he is actually town here. /shrug

on a body of work level, I'm not really satisfied with the rest of his play - the only strong scum read he had was Sky on D1, then he sheeped zmuffin onto Drezi at the end after avoiding all the discussion about Drezi that had happened that day. the rest of his scum reads were all really easy (ex. that reads list I pulled up where he calls out like 4 people for not contributing anything). then there was basically nothing of note at all on D3.

I'm somewhat hesistant about calling him town for his role - it would make enough sense to use it N1 regardless of alignment that I could see it coming from scum. re: Kagami's point about Rylai's global track from earlier that I initially agreed with, after thinking about it more he used this before he would have had any way of *knowing* we were planning on shooting Sakura, so I'm not sure if that point is actually correct.

this is as far as I'm getting tonight. gn

[pieguyn]

i do believe that if cupcake is town, ooba told him he's beloved. i also do believe that if cupcake is scum, ooba told him he was going to claim beloved. it was a trump card in the hole that presumably ooba was waiting until the last moment to reveal because it causes people to second-guess whether he should be lynched (well, sometimes it does, if people don't think)

i don't think that, if cupcake is scum, there was any "scum motivation" or anything like that in waiting to reveal it, i think it's more that he expected ooba to do it himself. same goes if cupcake is town

agree with the first paragraph.

now that you mention it, why do you think ooba didn't just claim it himself? I can't think of any good explanation for it regardless of what Katsuki's alignment is.

Pieguy immediately assuming AD's reaction means town-mala squicks me out a little bit. :/

if it means anything, I was debating for a while whether I should follow my own read on Mala or shoot Katsuki via policy. I don't like when people attempt to make hero shots as vig and I was really pessimistic bc that was basically what I was doing despite a few people reading her as town and Katsuki's flip giving a lot more information. -.-

[pieguyn]

Action on me makes me less sure about AD scum.

btw, when it's your turn to claim, I want to know what the reasoning behind this was

[pieguyn]

can you walk me through why you thought Dan targeting you made him more likely to be town? looking through this the only reason I found was that he claimed he'd lay out what he discovered about you (and I can't find where he did that, especially before you first started saying this), and if that's not the reason I don't think just him targeting you by itself makes enough sense as a town tell. what am I missing here?

[pieguyn]

I'm actually not sure the hider is a fake claim. remember Relentless claiming vig and pretty blatantly hinting at "shooting" Ank?

I want to think it over a bit, and I don't understand why Katsuki wouldn't have just used hider on N1 if he had it nor why he'd target someone like Shadoweh who (iirc) he thought was town, but I think there's at least some reason to believe it.

[pieguyn]

although now that I post that, I have no idea how anything he did wrt that would make us infer he was a hider, so maybe not

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: sisterly yuri is best yuri

[pieguyn]

remilia scarlet
the scarlet devil
non-human

2 abilities
vampire: hated
manipulation of fate: I can target a player during the night. if they have 1 or more day cards left, they must use one the following day or else they die. if they don't have any day cards left, I'm notified as such. used it N1 on Sky, didn't particularly see a reason to use it again after that.

2 spellcards
Scarlet Sign "Red the Nightless Castle": night-use. when I use it, everyone who used a spell card that night has their name written in red the next day. used it N1.

Divine Spear "Spear the Gungnir": we already know what this does (dayvig, only works on people with 0 or 1 spellcards left).

I'm also obviously a part of SDM neighborhood. anyway, this is why I called for people to claim if they'd use a spell card on N1 and why I wanted to claim last today. I was hoping scum would attempt to lie about card use, but (as far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong), everything seems to match.

[pieguyn]

quick question:

@Kagami:

what's your current read on Rylai?

[pieguyn]

why you didn't bomb Dan n2 Katsuki or Ank n3

it only works on people who have 1 or more day cards left, and they can get out of it by using one regardless

there wasn't much of a point in bombing Dan when either he doesn't have any day cards or, if he did, he'd use one to get out of it anyway. now that you mention it, I realize it would have been strictly better to use it on Katsuki N3 to confirm that he doesn't actually have any day cards that he's keeping hidden, but I didn't think about it at the time.

[pieguyn]

there are a few more things I want to say but I want Kagami to answer my question first

my gut feels very strongly that Katsuki isn't scum here. there's not much of a reason for it besides interactions, plus a general feeling that he wouldn't be careless enough to fuck his claim so ridiculously badly if he was scum here. I basically agree with everyone about the way he used his role, though (in particular hiding behind Shadoweh N3 doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially if he had a town read on her).

I'm also not sure why people are saying lynching him would confirm Shadoweh when there's probably only 1 scum left. given scum appears to have an extra kill and a spell card that can end the day phase immediately, there shouldn't be 5 scum even if one of them is a traitor. Katsuki's result can be trusted regardless of what his alignment is.

[pieguyn]

I don't buy "scum would be more careful" because town would also be more careful. Katsuki's play is entirely consistent with scum trolling around and getting caught between lies, and getting angry at the players who take what he says as it stands, not allowing him to trololol away from it. Basically everything out of his face hole is a lie.

yes, this is why I'm saying it's entirely gut

I agree logically speaking, there isn't anything town about his recent play and his claim doesn't make sense.

I'm pretty weirded out that you apparently did nothing n3 after a double scum flip to base your action off of.
Really bad. You had basically what amounted to a scum guilty on Katsuki. Why didn't it occur to you to use it?

it's not really a "scum guilty". I'm pretty sure Katsuki is for the most part telling the truth about the role that he has regardless of alignment, except maybe the bit about being a hider (which now that I'm thinking about it more might have been something he just made up on D3 in order to get people to think of his claim as a town claim after realizing how fucked he was, which explains why he wouldn't have felt any need to plan it in advance), so it didn't occur to me he might have had any day cards.

[pieguyn]

also I'll answer who I think is scum later - I'm currently mulling something over and don't want to make it public yet.

[pieguyn]

It "didn't occur to you" to try to get some information about the scummiest player in the game? On the night they claim to have been untargetable and you now have "a strong town gut read"? Pie come on dude. You had an ability that would have, should have, MUST have been used on Katsuki as both town or scum and you claim you did nothing?

I think you're overestimating the degree of town read I have on Katsuki by about 1000%. when I say it's entirely gut, I mean exactly that - I don't have any good reason for him being town and won't oppose his lynch, but I don't feel particularly optimistic about it.

and you're aware Katsuki didn't claim hider until today, right?

outside of that, I fully admit not targeting him N3 was suboptimal. there's not much else I can say. /shrug

[pieguyn]

Conclusion: I think rylai is town.

this is where I'm leaning as well

what I'm wondering is whether it makes any sense for scum to have 2 spell cards that end the day. if Rylai is telling the truth about his spell card here, which he almost certainly is, then scum would have Dan's card + a card that would allow them to immediately lynch whoever they want, which I think is way too much.

I'm really meh on his in-thread play, but what you're saying about what he did in the neighborhood makes me feel a lot better about him too.

[pieguyn]

this is essentially what happened

1. I use my ability N1 on Sky who wound up being obvious town after N1.
2. Sky would have wound up getting killed as a result of it after Dan ended the day if it weren't for him being immune.
3. I think "well fuck this, there's really no point in using this. even if I do hit scum with it, making them lose one day card isn't really that beneficial."
4. I proceed to forget about said ability for the rest of the game.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I admit it's my fault for not thinking about alternate uses of my ability after N1 ended, but fucking seriously? I legit have no idea what you think me-scum has to gain by lying about this - especially why I'd bother using it N3 on Katsuki in the first place after he had claimed he only had the 1 spell card and it was a night-use card - unless you think I used it on N2 as well.

[pieguyn]

NotSci claimed his spell cards on night 2 after Sakura died. Was that info shared in the game thread? Should it be? I think it should be.

I don't think he did. he claimed the "remove all spellcards" card, but not the others.

[pieguyn]

yeah, he claimed the "remove all spellcards" card in the game thread (after Mala said she had the same card), but not the others

[pieguyn]

oh btw, I'm in favor of night talk

[pieguyn]

fairly sure the 2nd one is just for one player, not for the entire game. see: Mala's 1287 and his subsequent reaction to it

looking back at it, I think the 4th one is destroying an entire neighborhood, since he had a similar ability last game (destroying all neighborhoods one person had access to) and it worked on the entire neighborhood as opposed to just one person's access.

[pieguyn]

Kagami*

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS

[pieguyn]

I'd like to hear more from Shadoweh about her thoughts today. I'd like for pieguy to get around to whatever he's getting around to. I'd like for kagami to do something I'd unequivocally townread.

ironically, half of this was me thinking Kagami was scum

the question to Rylai was supposed to be indicative of that since Kagami-scum needs to mislynch all of Katsuki, Ank, Rylai in order to win. the tl;dr of it was I was very skeptical of her interactions with the scum team - she had distanced from all of the scum, but had done so in ways that didn't put them at much risk of being lynched - and I didn't like her push on Katsuki at all for a few reasons (some parts of it came off as forced). plus her claim is a lot more basic than every other role in the game - it appears to just be one spellcard that's a messenger that she can reuse, which is basically worthless - but I wanted to look all the claims over to make sure

I was still mulling it over bc she answered the question satisfactorily. the other half was the bit with Rylai's role making him town, which I was hiding bc I wanted to see what she'd come up with first.

Hey Pie. Didn't you have a Dayvig that hit people with little to no spellcards left? Did you not think confirming whether or not you could Dayvig Action Dan was a good idea?

wouldn't work. the dayvig works on people with 0-1 spellcards of any type, the "time bomb" only applies to day cards.

[pieguyn]

I feel like my role is fairly weak, but it still has a bunch of moving parts and fits into stuff other people have claimed. Especially Notsci. I'm wondering if other neighborhoods had that sort of synchronicity but I haven't gotten to the point of looking at the claime from that lens.

There's not much there for kagami's role to jigsaw-fit from what I can see.

that's basically what I'm thinking, yes

most of the roles in the game actually do stuff, or even when they're weak have some positive utility attached to them under certain circumstances (ex. me being able to dayvig people when they have 1 or less cards left - or, alternatively, being able to confirm someone having no day cards). Kagami's, at the end of the day, can only message people once every few nights on average, which is almost completely useless as a role no matter how you attempt to play it.

the only thing I think it really fits with is the fact that she has a neighborhood and she can attempt to do some sort of gambit with it while letting someone else know what she's doing (ex. claim a strong town role and then PM someone that if they get NK'ed xxx is likely scum), but it's restricted and her role can't do anything else (compare to most of the roles so far which have had several types of abilities).

sooooo

I'm not sure I get what you mean, but I think we agree.

Oh also my subconscious is calling Kat town.

elaborate? I want to feel the same way but as I said before it's entirely gut. -.-

[pieguyn]

But, I'm really not seeing your scum game here so I dunno.

Kagami worries me.

this is basically where I'm at. I'm in a position where I really doubt Katsuki is scum here, but it makes literally no sense/is outright impossible to logically defend his play and I kind of want to just see his flip anyway to clear up the ridiculous amount of WIFOM he's creating. (I don't care if anyone thinks I'm trying to "push a wagon while not being on it", I'm not.)

I actually agree with Katsuki's assessment of Kagami. I think that Kagami is generally stretching to justify her push there. I'll pull up some things I didn't like after I post this.

the last god knows how many pages have been almost entirely semantic. if Ank is scum, it's not for anything Sky/Rylai are calling him out for, and vice versa.

@Ank:

what do you make of Kagami's assessment of Rylai's neighborhood behavior?

[pieguyn]

now I do. I'm wondering what it has to do with anything, though.

p-edit: I'm more referring to if you think it's a valid argument for Rylai being town. I thought the post itself was slightly town, but not particularly telling either way.

[pieguyn]

No, I don't think anything there indicates Rylai town.

I'd like to hear your take on it. essentially I agree that Dan reacting to ooba pointing out he was confscum is odd if Rylai was also scum with them, given he pointed it out first.

I'm also wondering if you think his role makes sense from scum (scum having a spell card that can immediately end the day, + another one that would allow them to instantaneously lynch anyone they wanted on top of ending the day, would be too much even for 4 scum).

[pieguyn]

I thought you were implying it was bc you sent Gaiden the message N1. :p

I had assumed Gaiden had a troll role that colored his name blue, and that it would by default override any other colors. regardless, if that wasn't the case, I didn't see how anything alignment-relevant could be gained by speculating on it.

any particular reason you waited until now to ask me about this?

[pieguyn]

well fuck, I was about to get to this. -.-

Kagami's recent posts actually make me >90% sure on her being scum here. I don't want to reveal exactly what it is I'm seeing just yet bc it's kind of subtle, but one intermediate question before I lay out fully:

@Kagami:

at what post did you start developing your scum read on me/theory that scum's spell cards were designed to kill ppl who were low on cards? specific post number, please.

[pieguyn]

one thing that I can specifically point out that won't interfere with anything is the timing of her push on me. she apparently kept silent about her read on me until I started pushing on her, and then the more I alluded to her being scum the more she kept trying to push me as scum.

she will probably claim "oh, I alluded to it in post xxx", but that does not change the fact that she didn't do anything to push it until after I started pushing her as scum

soooooo

[pieguyn]

I'm hoping I'm just horribly wrong here and that it's just Katsuki, but at this point I seriously doubt it.

[pieguyn]

that was an awful lynch and you should all be ashamed

lol

I won't mind even if Katsuki flips town. I don't think there was any way I would have brought myself to feel good enough about him to lead a lynch anywhere else if that's the case.

[pieguyn]

so Kagami

just so we're clear

you think that despite being a role that should be PL'ed before LYLO, I started bussing Sakura at the start of the game, directed notsci in the neighborhood to shoot Sakura N1, bussed Dan the whole game, and tried to convince people to double lynch my last partner D3, bc I thought solo'ing through endgame would be a good fucking idea bc..... DERP DERP I HOPE NO ONE THINKS ABOUT THIS WITHOUT ME LOOKING LIKE OBVSCUM