Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Ranger]

{Arko}
{Aisa}
{Oclaxian Empire, Vanderscamp}
{KawaiiKame}

VOTE: KawaiiKame
(Obligatory "it's page one" disclaimer.)

[Ranger]

{Arko}
{Aisa}
{Bellaphant}
{Oclaxian Empire, Vanderscamp, AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}

End p1.

[Ranger]

{Arko}
{Aisa}
{Bellaphant, Vanderscamp, AurorusVox}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{KawaiiKame}
{BloodB0t}

VOTE: BloodB0t
p2.

[Ranger]

^ is town.

I understand the callout.

I disagree.

{Arko}
{Aisa}
{Bellaphant, Vanderscamp, AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{BloodB0t}
(I actually think they're partners, distancing.)

[Ranger]

Idk my read on Blood overall though.

Blood feels forced and overblown, trying too hard but producing too little in terms of genuine thought. The Oclaxian interaction does look like theater to me, but if I had to pick a scum in the duo (rather than both being scum as I suspect) it'd actually be Blood.

Oclaxian's interactions look forced and fake, with the interaction with Blood in particular reeking of scum theater. However, I see at least

flashes

of towniness, where it

could

just be town being aggressive, because I see

potential

genuine thought. Still, it requires straining my eyes to see, so I believe scum's far more likely.

{Arko, Aisa} are my only confident townreads; {BloodB0t, Oclaxian Empire} are my only confident scumreads. Fortunately, per the game mechanics, this should suffice, as we need not have every slot sorted correctly, just

enough

of the slots correctly. Slots who aim to avoid us doing so should expose themselves with time.

[Ranger]

heres the real question ranger - why bother with theater over something so utterly mundane and stupid

Game mechanics. Something "mundane and stupid" as you put it makes for perfect theatricality, in a game where theater is disproportionately useful for scum.

Strong read that OE and Arko are not scum together, I don't think you say "I don't think you'll die from my vote" if your plan is to bus.

Not the post which gave me that read; for me, it was 74. Still, you seeing the same thing I did there (OE and Arko not scum together) is +town.

{Arko}
{Aisa, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant, AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{BloodB0t}

[Ranger]

Oh wow, sorry I had no idea!! Sorry if saying hydra was offensive <3

Depends on the system tbh. Lotsa plurality systems like ours discovered plurality

after

mafia so view plurality at least partially through the lens of being essentially a permanent hydra. Ask every time is best policy.

Is it crazy to say I think a scum voted ox?

Not at all, I just feel it's not Arko.

{Arko}
{Aisa, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{BloodB0t}

[Ranger]

why do u not think arko?

Well for a start you're not scum with Arko so if you're scum, Arko's not.

But even if you're town, Arko's the towniest slot in the game to me rn. I vibe hard with Arko.

[Ranger]

Or Ranger can if she comes around before we finish CS

Each system is different. Some can have as few as two, some can have a few, some can have a dozen, some can have two dozen, and some can have hundreds, maybe even thousands. (We have hundreds.)

The type also differs. Some have completely full divides between each person, with the people fully developed. Others have the people fully developed, but some linked to others. Others more have people not fully developed, where they still are loosely part of the whole of a person but are still distinct enough to not identify as one singular entity, and yet do identify as one single entity. It really depends. Every system is different.

The main thing about systems is, essentially, having more than one internal voice. Singlets (so-called for having a single voice) have only one voice. One mind, one thought. Neurodivergencies can cause them to have multiple strains of thoughts, but they retain one consistent internal voice at all times.

Plurality is anyone not a singlet. It means more than one internal voice, at its simplest level. These voices can still identify as one, or they can identify as individuals, or anywhere in-between. But they exist, and have various levels of distinction. Feelings, memories, personalities, appearances. Each think differently, each speak differently. They are all unique. Some systems identify as a single person, others don't; some identify as somewhere in-between. Every system is unique, so it's best to be respectful and do your best to address them properly.

In a mafia context, usernames are usually a safe bet. But you can address specific alters/facets if they have signed, usually. Just respect you might not get them directly answering since whoever is fronting, is fronting. Some systems can't willingly bring a person forward.

I'm not the best at describing this though. For us, 'Ranger' works just fine.

[Ranger]

My read on Ranger is contingent on what Arko is at the moment, I think.

Bad approach tbh. My reads are fluid. Write a case on what makes Arko scum and I'll listen. You can convince me. I simply haven't been, because Arko's content is by far the towniest in the game imo.

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

[Ranger]

the convo with Ox again didn't vibe right: I ended up tr-ing the ox slot ans not feeling anything more about arko, which tends to be one of my red flags for scum: they end up feeling 'grey'.

The exact opposite was mine. I came out of that convo with more town on Arko and nothing more on Ox.

Why is OE not scum with Arko? Anything more to your TR on Arko? He's been your top TR even before the the interaction with OE. So I guess that was just vibes?

74 is not a scum theater post. The "I'm done with you" is a genuine interaction. OE can be scum, OE can be town, but regardless OE isn't scum with Arko thanks to it.

Your interactions with OE were notably different than Arko's, mutually so. The treatment of Arko felt organic. The treatment with you felt artificial and forced.

As for Arko, I've vibed with them from the beginning. First page was just vibes of rvs + liking their mechtalk; the townread started in earnest from 26. Specifically,

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

I loved this thought process.

I liked the engagement in 41.
I liked the sentiment of 43/48/61/65.
54 is an approach I feel comes from a town mindset.
The explanation of 69 is an approach which is nai, but the context of sharing it makes me lean town. (Someone explaining their philosophy is nai in of itself. The context behind explaining the philosophy can be ai, in this case, +town.)
I felt 118 was a good approach upon returning to the thread.
154 is not a scum post.

There's good reason Arko's my top townread.
Near as I can tell, there's no reason for Arko to be scum.

[Ranger]

once again tho - activity this early in the game is meaningless. that’s the entire point. it was what, two pages in the game?

I made no reference to activity in my townread. Where are you getting the idea my townread on Arko has anything to do with activity? Certainly not from anything I've said!

My argument is off of the content within and believing the content is town. The thought process was the important part. The solving was the important part. Not the activity. The divide might seem a bit arbitrary, but I felt the divide came from a town mindset of trying to figure out where scum were. For a post that early, it's as town as town players can get.

[Ranger]

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

[Ranger]

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

[Ranger]

Ranger like wtf why do you townread this?

Happy scumday but perhaps try reading.

I've stated why I feel Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian Empire.
I've stated Oclaxian Empire is one of my stronger scumreads. (Admittedly, I need to explain this scumread.)

I've stated my reasons for townreading Arko.

I've also stated I don't see any reason for scumreading Arko. The reasons I've seen have all seemed trash.

[Ranger]

{Arko}
{Aisa, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

I still vibe with this, but 184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

[Ranger]

I don't believe that you have individual townreads on all of those Arko posts.

My readslists demonstrate evolution in thought.

I clearly had reason to believe Arko was town, or else Arko wouldn't have been at the top.

I think if Ranger had a super strong townread on Arko where they townread basically every post Arko has made this game, I think they would open with that and not the associative read of you two not being together.

You have a misunderstanding of my brain neurology then.

Which was I asked about first?

I was asked about the interactions with Oclixian Empire first, so I answered that first.

[Ranger]

I don't believe that you have individual townreads on all of those Arko posts.

My readslists demonstrate evolution in thought.

I clearly had reason to believe Arko was town, or else Arko wouldn't have been at the top.

I think if Ranger had a super strong townread on Arko where they townread basically every post Arko has made this game, I think they would open with that and not the associative read of you two not being together.

You have a misunderstanding of my brain neurology then.

Which was I asked about first?

I was asked about the interactions with Oclixian Empire first, so I answered that first.

Receipts:

121 was the first time I was asked about the interaction. (The context behind it was the votes on Oclixian Empire; those votes included Arko.)

I stated Arko was the towniest slot in the game off of their content (not interactions,

content

) in 176. Wording is important; if Arko's interactions were the basis of that read I would have specified. (The post literally said I thought Arko's content was town

separately from

interactions.)

The next time was 170. Ox-Arko interactions, not Arko content.
THEN 173. Oc-Arko interactions, PLUS Arko content. Which is how I responded.

I answer things by and large in their chronological order.
I was asked about the interaction before I was asked to explain the read.
So I explained the interaction before I explained the read.

Both were quite apparent from the start. I was rather unambiguous.

[Ranger]

Maybe we're talking about different posts?

That would not surprise me. Given I'm the one who wrote my posts tho, I trust my view on them more than yours.

This isn't true, though, right after you made your post that Ox was asking about, they questioned you about Arko being town, not the associative read.

That was a question about the associative, not a question about Arko being town.

I was asked why I didn't think Arko's vote on Oclaxian Empire was scum.

That wasn't a question about Arko's alignment.
That was a question about Arko's association with Oclaxian Empire.

The context was "Oclaxian Empire voters contain scum".
I specified 'maybe so, but not Arko'.
I was asked why not Arko.
I wasn't asked why Arko was town, or why Arko wasn't scum.
I was specifically asked why Arko wasn't scum voting Oclaxian Empire.

I answered the question given.

Again--if you think differently, you don't understand my brain neurology.

I have no idea why you wouldn't have put that in the big ranking post you made that Ox was responding to.

My default is readslists without commentary.

I add commentary when I think it pertinent, for things worth commenting on.
19/80/81 contain zero commentary.
82 contains one comment, disagreeing with the BloodB0t town callout.

86 is my first substantive post.

Then 119.

And then in 120 it was back to one comment, specifying I believe Arko wasn't scum on Oclaxian Empire. (A read previously talked about per 119.)

And more commentary in 149.

I comment on things worth responding to, as they pop up. I'm not inclined to react to nonexistent content.

Nobody asked me to explain my Arko townread until later. I explained it as soon as it was requested.
People did ask me to explain my "Arko is not scum with Oclaxian Empire" take. I explained each time it was asked.

If you take umbrage with my minimalism, there's a simple fix; ask and engage me. The fault doesn't lie with me for not inquiring into my posts.

But you aren't going into any detail about your reasoning, you're just calling all of his individual posts towny with different wording.

Yes?

That's still evolution in read. It's taking new information in. The new information might be reworded of prior info, which results in...

...Arko being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread.

+Town actions build off of each other. One town action builds off of previous town actions.
Arko's posting has been +town throughout the game.

I also did explain my Arko read beyond using vibes though. Solving in 26 was actually +town specifically by dividing the scum up into "one not posted, two which have". That gives tangible analysis and the beginning of sorting.
It specifies 2 scum in {Arko, KawaiiKame, Oclaxian Empire, Vanderscamp, Aisa, AurorusVox, Ranger, Bellaphant} and 1 scum in...
{BloodB0t}.

I believe that being the last post before going to bed shows an insanely +town mindset, and given followthrough, would allow for further analysis and breakdown of those within, which Arko had already done on page one.

Like, I could take your explanations for your reads, choose a random player, and say the same thing about all of their posts and it could apply to them too.

Sure, but that'd make you a liar because those things wouldn't apply to their posts.

What I don't believe is that you think every single one of those posts you quoted is individually towny, I don't think Arko's posts deserve that, and the reasoning you did give wasn't very compelling.
it just feels way too strong to be real.

You seem to have a very different view of my posts than reality.

I've repeatedly stated I'll listen to cases of Arko being scum.
None have responded to my offer.

It's not that Arko is strongly town.
I have Arko as town, but my reads are fluent enough I could be convinced otherwise.

It's that I think the

scumreads

are too strong to be real, because nobody has brought forth compelling arguments on Arko.
The burden of proof is on the accuser--not the accused.

The default is a slot (including Arko) being town, and Arko's posts support that to me.

When I feel Arko's posts are towny enough, and the default is town, then it is up to the accusers to convince me otherwise.

Nobody has even tried.

[Ranger]

The burden of proof is on the accuser--not the accused.

Speaking of, I've undertaken that burden and made my accusation.

Spoiler: my case

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

Stop

Vanderscamp:

Why have you not addressed my case?

You've attacked my defense of Arko.

You've been silent about my case on Oclaxian Empire.

Or maybe it's just my disarming charisma, that happens too

Aisa:

You've started your more serious reading.

Would you care to comment on my case?

Ranger - what do you make of arko apparently freaking out over e-2 being too soon, when they themselves thought they’d put ox at e-2 earlier in the thread?

AurorusVox:

Counter-question; what do you make of Oclaxian Empire stating I had 'decided' my reads and 'would not reevaluate' (implying I'm town), rather than 'know and decide not to reevaluate'?
What do you make of Oclaxian Empire's hypocrisy in stating I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment, when having criticized me for saying Arko was town regardless of Oclaxian Empire's alignment?

[Ranger]

Ranger - what do you make of arko apparently freaking out over e-2 being too soon, when they themselves thought they’d put ox at e-2 earlier in the thread?

I don't see any freak-out. 45 is no freak-out. It is responding to the e-2. It is not a freakout. It is commenting on it. Commentary does not a freakout make. Tone-wise I would actually say it's the

opposite

of a freakout. It's inquiring into Oclaxian Empire's vote in a way I feel was quite town.

It is no sin to have suspicion on a slot after that slot votes you. The handling was the important part.

I don't see hypocrisy in voting Oclaxian Empire up to e-2 when Arko has valid reasons to suspect the slot.
Arko wasn't concerned about being at e-2. Arko was inquiring into Oclaxian Empire's e-2 vote. After the inquiry, Arko came to the conclusion Oclaxian Empire was likely scum in part for the e-2 vote. Arko put Oclaxian Empire to e-2.

There's nothing suspect in that chain of events. It's my opinion it's quite the opposite. I believe that chain of events and that process indicates Arko had a town mindset, approaching from a position of being uninformed and forming an opinion based off the information being generated in-thread.

[Ranger]

The first thing you mentioned about your Arko read, you said it was from vibes, and Arko has always remained your top town read. Was there anything beyond "vibes" that made you initially have him as your top town read?

Perhaps reading my posts would reveal the answer to beyond vibes.

But let me ask you this.

This game has nine pages.

This game has been going on for four real life days.

Why

wouldn't

'vibes' be enough to top the townread charts?

It's earlygame.

Reads are going to be weak early.

Vibes are the strongest reason possible to have early.

The burden of proof is on the person making a claim, we think you're claiming that Arko is town without giving enough proof.

Then you've not been reading my posts in good faith. I've given plenty of proof. 119, "Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian Empire because OE's 74 means they're never scum with Arko".
149, vibing hard.
176, I stated I could be convinced about Arko.
177, I specified I felt the Arko-OE back and forth looked good for Arko, increasing my townread there.
That same post additionally contains me laying out why I have that townread.
183, I lay out how I feel Arko's thought process indicates a town alignment.
186, I reiterate these reasons.
201 serves as another post reiterating the reasons.
214 contains further elaboration on my Arko townread.

While not stating the read per se, 200 lays out the process of developing my reads.

I've laid out my reasons for believing Arko is town.
I've seen none for Arko being scum, despite repeatedly asking.

The Arko discussion is also largely a distraction.

I don't see people asking about my other reads, for instance.

My townread on Arko is not unique.
The only unique thing about my Arko read is I was asked about it, so after being asked, I explained.

I've also seen people repeatedly dodge my case on Oclaxian Empire. None of the slots to have posted since I gave it have commented on it. (This includes you.)

I feel it is also very telling slots who were previously suspect of each other (BloodB0t literally called Oclaxian Empire scum and wrote a case on them, Vanderscamp literally

agreed with my conclusion

in 89 of OE not being scum with Arko, and they have all banded together onto me, clinging to the same argument.

I've explained how I formed my read, and the strength of it. No, my read is not strong. None of my reads are. Arko is my

strongest

townread; Arko is not a

strong

townread. My townread is explicitly based off of vibing with Arko's tone and mindset, with me believing those are indicative of Arko being town.

[Ranger]

I've seen none for Arko being scum, despite repeatedly asking.
The Arko discussion is also largely a distraction.
I don't see people asking about my other reads, for instance.

My townread on Arko is not unique.
The only unique thing about my Arko read is I was asked about it, so after being asked, I explained.

I want to reiterate these two points.

The amount of explanation I've given to my townread on Arko is not unique to Arko. I could give that same level of explanation and breakdown to any of my reads. Nobody has.

People criticize my townread for being 'too strong' on Arko, but their scumreads on Arko are too strong.

[Ranger]

Spoiler: my case

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

Yeah Vander seems pretty towny.

BloodB0t:

Why have you not commented on my Oclaxian Empire read and case?

[Ranger]

I'm honestly hating trying to find who the scum are

Spoiler: my case

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

Arko:

Have you read my case? If not, then please do and give thoughts on Oclaxian Empire.

[Ranger]

@ranger/arko that’s not the part I was bothered about. It was the difference between the thoughts on ox being at e-2 in these posts (you didn’t put ox at e-2 but you thought you had):

The difference between the thoughts are a difference behind the circumstances. Arko didn't have an issue with a slot being at e-2. Arko had an issue with Oclaxian Empire casting an e-2 vote on them, and inquired on it. Reading the situation in context makes it clear the two aren't comparable.

@ranger yeah the “decide”/“know” thing could be a slip but could it not also be in the context of “you’ve decided … to present ox as a scumread / arko as a townread … as scum”?

That was the purpose behind my 176. I was trying to figure out what Oclaxian Empire meant by the statement.

The entire thing about a scumslip is it being a

slip

. Not intended. Oclaxian Empire backtracked on their wording, after I pointed out the issue with the post. That indicates the slip was real.

[Ranger]

I think you're the towniest player in the game so far.

Vanderscamp:

You continue to not address these.

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

You've also not addressed 214.

[Ranger]

@ranger Fwiw, I wouldn't mind if "vibes" was the only reason to townread Arko. My question was just open-ended and not meant to imply guilt for having a read only based on vibes, I just wondered if that was the only reason for the initial read. I don't like the reaction to that question though.

Vibes were indeed my initial reason for the townread on Arko and remain among the stronger reasons.

Arko's interactions with Oclaxian Empire (and vice-versa) demonstrate the two are never scum together and I believe Oclaxian Empire is scum which by proxy would be reason for Arko to be town.
Even without that, Arko's handling of OE felt +town regardless of Ox's alignment.

Arko's content has seemed +town in a solvey way that stacks over time.

Most posts give good vibes. Not every post, but enough.
Good vibes stacked on good vibes strengthen the read because each post I vibe with, adds to the existing good vibes.
The lack of a real scum case despite players scumreading the slot is also a red flag.

Are any of these slam-dunk?

Well no.

Which is why I've asked for the reasons Arko wouldn't be town--and have been met with radio silence by and large.

I just don't like Ranger's posts about you or Ox.

And what issues do you take with those takes specifically?

[Ranger]

All the things I quoted are about the e-2 on ox

I'm afraid I don't follow.

Arko was put to e-2 by Oclaxian Empire.
Arko inquired Ox on that vote in a way demonstrating no alarm at e-2, but rather curiosity as to why OE would cast the e-2 vote.
Arko thought Oc's answers weren't great.
Arko thought they casted an e-2 vote, but in the process explained why they were okay with having cast that vote.

I don't see how you see anything suspect in that process. It has no inconsistencies. It has no contradictions. One action directly followed into another. I don't understand what your point is.

[Ranger]

Ranger wrote: ↑Today, 3:53 pm
I believe that being the last post before going to bed shows an insanely +town mindset
Can you elaborate on this?

I already did. I deliberately didn't reiterate because I had told you to read my posts in good faith, because had you, you'd have seen where I had.

[Ranger]

I'm starting to think BB/Ox might be 2 scum

Made a post about this, somehow got eaten.

This would be my read on them, yes.

I called BB/Ox's interactions theater.

Their current content suggests I was right.

[Ranger]

If they had no issue with it earlier why did they have an issue with it later?

I see now.

That I admit I would be going out of my way to defend Arko to answer.

But sure, in for a penny in for a pound, the people saying I'm defending Arko too hard right now aren't exactly going to stop their TMI accusations so why not?

I think the key factor is 55. Specifically,

let them breath for some time before voting them.

Let OE breathe before voting them.

Between 55 and 118 was 95, and I can see Arko as town seeing that, knowing BloodB0t wanted to vote, and thinking this is a danger to ending the day too soon.

I admit that is a stretch. I had to strain my eyes to see it. To be honest I don't

really

believe it. I'm just being spiteful and doubling down on the defense.

Being more honest, that does demote Arko.

Spite-readslist would be,
{Arko, AurorusVox}
{Aisa}
{Bellaphant}
{KawaiiKame}
{Vanderscamp}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

...But I can't bring myself to actually commit to the spite. It's just not my thing.

So actual readslist would probably be closer to,

{AurorusVox}
{Aisa, Bellaphant}
{Arko}
{KawaiiKame, Vanderscamp}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

[Ranger]

Sorry, I'm bad with walls of text. Can you just sum it up quickly for my simple brain?

My posts are far from being walls of text. They already

are

summaries.

I'm disinclined to follow the request when the summation was already given, repeatedly.

I don't get the feeling of progression on them as I might from a townie trying to sort. Seems more like trying to justify previously made decisions than trying to sort.

Actually I was trying to sort Vanderscamp specifically to see if their scumread on me was made in good faith out of a mistaken read of my posts or if it was made in bad faith. (I was engaging in those posts specifically to try and get a better read on Vanderscamp specifically.)

I still haven't figured out which but at this point I give up on that idea.

On that note, it's frustrating how few players are engaging me. I genuinely feel Oclaxian Empire has a very high chance of being scum here and my reasons for the belief are strong.

I'm meant to be a reactive player--reacting to the content of others.
(I can't react to content which doesn't exist so what I react to is reflective of the available content. If someone else repeatedly revisits a subject and that's all I have to engage on, then I, too, will repeatedly revisit the subject in reacting to them.)

Not be proactive and force engagement.

[Ranger]

Nevermind on giving up. Vanderscamp's reply reignited the desire to sort. It'll be dampened by having revealed I engaged with intent to sort them but *shrug*.

Either you've only played with the worst scum in the world, or #26 is the kind of thing that can be replicated extremely easily as scum.

Can be?
Yes, it

can

be replicated by scum.

Would be the approach scum actually took? On the second post of the second page? When going to bed?

That I don't think scum thinks to.

Anything

can

be done by scum.
It's not a matter of whether it can be done.
It's whether scum will

think to

do it.

I find 26 to be a post scum are incredibly unlikely to think of.

I really just don't believe that all of these similarly generic posts from Arko are posts that you think are all towny.

Well I do. Arko's posts vibed with me. Regardless of Arko's alignment I'd call those posts +town. It's the type of opener which

can

come from scum, but usually scum just...don't think to. So like...the vibes were good. None of them strongly so. But enough to warrant the townread.

I don't agree, I could point to any game related post of any player and say I like the sentiment or engagement of it, or say it's coming from a towny place, and it would be just as meaningful.

And then you would need to back that up, through both your reads, your progression in reads, your reasons, and your mindset, and have the meta to back you up.

You have none of those; I have all of them.

My main point is that I don't believe that you're reading all of the posts you quoted as towny, regardless of the strength of the read

Well I do believe those posts are towny, and as I am the one who wrote the posts, my belief is the one I think more important. :P

You're stating you think I don't believe it.
I know I do because I do believe it.
Your continued statement of thinking I don't believe it won't change that I do, in fact, believe it.

i think the lemon's post that it's weird for Arko to put someone at E-2, and then a day later say that we shouldn't be putting people at E-2, is a compelling case and possibly more alignment indicative than any of the posts you've quoted about Arko.
Thoughts on that?

It gives me pause on my Arko townread at the very least.

It's not enough to reverse my townread.
It's enough to throw it into question.
I need time to process, honestly.
Give me a day to think it over and I'll have a better answer.

[Ranger]

Wow, does everything Arko says give you the impression of coming from a town mindset?...

Not everything.

But most things, yes.

Arko's posts vibed as town.
I thought I saw a town thought process there.
I thought Arko wasn't scum with Oclaxian Empire and Oclaxian Empire is scum.
I thought Arko's interactions with Oclaxian Empire were town regardless of OE's alignment.

Arko has a lot going for them that's +town.

But AurorusVox did raise a good point.

If I

squint

, I can

force

an answer to that.

Being intellectually honest with myself though and not forcing it, I've got nothin' there.

I need about 24 hours or so to mull it over. Step away from the computer, think about it offline.

To be honest, maybe same with Oclaxian Empire.
People have raised their doubts there; I need to think about it overnight to figure out if their doubts are valid or if my case still holds.

[Ranger]

Or maybe it's just my disarming charisma, that happens too

Aisa:

You've started your more serious reading.

Would you care to comment on my case?

Ranger, was it your Arko towncase or your OE scumcase that you wanted me to comment on?

The scumcase.

[Ranger]

Pretty null. Vaguely towny in tone

Hypocrite.

[Ranger]

Are you indeed saying that the

fact

the post was the

last one made before bed

makes it +town for you?

The timing makes it +town--so yes.

Does this assertion make any kind of sense I might be missing?

You can't tell me posts you make at the end of a day are identical to posts you make near the beginning.

There's multiple contributing factors on later posts.

Later posts are when someone is already tired.
Later posts are when someone is already exhausted.
Later posts come after burnout--both from the wear and tear of the day, and the wear and tear of a stressful mafia game.
Mental exhaustion builds up. The brain begins to shut down, from having overexerted itself. (My mind begins to melt whenever I spend longer than 15-30 mins on mafia.)
As scum this makes it easier to mess up.
As town this has a natural tendency to lead to something resembling drunkposting: less coherent, more stream of thought, more unfiltered and often containing things the player would not think to post earlier.

That's a near-universal experience for mafia players. Everyone who's played enough games knows the experience.

Scum players can mimic the town reaction, if in their mental exhaustion they think to.
Town do it without thinking. That's why it's +town. The timing and the content increase the odds it was town. It

could

be scum. Tone-wise it vibed as town to me.

@Ranger: Or were you just referring to the content of the last post being +town for you?

It was both.

[Ranger]

We'll see.

I agree it needs time.
I need to step away from the keyboard to give my brain time to recover, cool down, process, and consider things from the distance, and reflect. After that I'll have formed a better opinion.

(Right now I'm apparently stupid tho. I literally logged off and was done. I came back because who knows, I apparently like overstraining my mind by not letting it rest. :shrug: )

I think blood is quite towny, I agree with all of what they're saying.

It's quite easy to agree with someone who is saying all of the same things as you in the exact same way on the exact same players.

It's also a red flag.

That trait rarely has zero scum in the pairing.

[Ranger]

which seems more like assuming Arko is town and working backwards.

Is this your issue???

That I'm assuming Arko is town and working backwards???

I thought I made it clear.

Everyone is town by default.

Yes

, I assume Arko is town, because I assume everyone is town initially.

My readslists are fluent and everyone starts at null.

But while everyone starts with a

read

of null, I still

assume

town.

I'm not sure how to explain that if you don't get the conceptual difference between assuming town and reading town and knowing town. The three are all separate ideas.

{AurorusVox, Aisa}
{Bellaphant}
{Arko, Vanderscamp}
{KawaiiKame}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

[Ranger]

I keep considering rescinding my townread on you for getting into silly arguments with Ranger, but every time I see a towny post you made which makes me want to not rescind the townread, it's quite something!

I'm largely of the same mind.

Vanderscamp's takes on me stretch credibility. I've been trying to sort them. I originally assumed wrong-town, then thought they might be scum, but now Vanderscamp's most recent posting has me back to thinking town.

It's one of the reasons I keep engaging with them. I keep on having my read on them be in flux, more than any slot in the game. I'd like to be able to lock them down (well, as much as locking down is possible given my readslists are always in flux; anything can trigger a change).

Positive from this is my townread has grown on you.

And actually thinking about it...

{Aisa}
{AurorusVox}
{Arko, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant}
{KawaiiKame, BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

(I'm 50/50 on putting Vanderscamp on a tier between AurorusVox and Arko. Bellaphant demoted because lack of recent townness in my memory, may bump her back up after reviewing later.)

This is more accurate. BloodB0t's posts are better, but I still lean scum. Aisa vibes town harder than AurorusVox does.

[Ranger]

282 Makes sense but I think you're exaggerating that it's

insanely

townie, you even admit that it can be faked "if they think to".

Well yes. Any action can be scum if they think to. It's just a matter of whether they will. I maintain Arko's posts are disproportionately +town, regardless of Arko's alignment--if Arko is scum it would be scum who made +town posts, but you'll never convince me the posts weren't +town.

Convince me the posts were +town that happened to be made by scum? That, that's quite possible. I'm considering it right now. (Well, will be as soon as I log off. I don't think I have the brain capacity to reassess without distancing myself. So I need a night of rest to relax and recharge my brain before I tackle it tomorrow.)

[Ranger]

Eh, screw it. I had Vander town earlier, Vander has town posting, I'll give the tier separation.

{Aisa}
{AurorusVox}
{Vanderscamp}
{Arko, Bellaphant}
{KawaiiKame, BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}
(That said, Bella up with Arko because both need the same thing: overnight evaluation.)

[Ranger]

Mod: 24 hour V/LA

Noted.

Will address 292/293, etc. tomorrow.

In the mean time tho;

I can't work out my read on aisa at all [...] I disliked their jumping in fully with ranger

I am now skimming rangers posts;)

Well there's your problem.

Aisa

read

my posts;
You

skimmed

my posts;
The difference in your perspective is from that. Try reading my posts instead of skimming--not because of the content of my posts, but to understand where Aisa comes from. (That said, actually do read my posts because of their content. :P)

Rest of P12, and all of P13, tomorrow (I hope).

[Ranger]

Pretty null. Vaguely towny in tone

Hypocrite.

Why?
I don't think he's made a dozen posts that are towny in tone, if that's what you're referring to.

Still. You agree with my take (

vaguely

,

towny

, in

tone

) in strength and reason.
Yet attack me for having that same read.

If you compiled a list of towny-tone posts from him it'd be nearly identical to mine.

The way you're talking about Arko is not coming from a perspective of assuming he's town by default.
You're pointing out multiple posts of Arko's that you think are actively towny, that I and others doubt are alignment indicative enough for you to be able to get the reads that you're claiming.

I repeat: hypocrite.

My read is no different than yours.

I formed it from reading the thread and coming to a conclusion.

Nothing more.

I've explained my stance and how I came to those conclusions.
I explained why it was not strong. (Explicitly, it's a mixture of vibes, gut, tone, and lean. Not the basis of a strong read.

Strongest

townread, but not

strong

.)
You're accusing me of doing something you're doing yourself.

[Ranger]

Convince me the posts were +town that happened to be made by scum? That, that's quite possible. I'm considering it right now. (Well, will be as soon as I log off. I don't think I have the brain capacity to reassess without distancing myself. So I need a night of rest to relax and recharge my brain before I tackle it tomorrow.)

By the way, I did this for Arko. (Still need to for Oclaxian Empire.)

I maintain their early posts were +town.

I've no explanation for the discrepancy AurorusVox pointed out in their takes. That's +scum.

When I did the thinking, I came to the conclusion town can make +scum actions I've no town explanation for, so the case isn't slam-dunk. It should be considered, but isn't a smoking gun in of itself.

As

part

of that consideration: Arko's more recent posting I feel quite negative about; they feel like +scum. 227 left a bad taste in my mouth.
233 looks like scum happy a town player (me) is defending them and going to take the fall for them (I'm a larger wagon than Arko).
237 is good, but is sheeping my takes, after I defended them.
315 felt +scum to me.

All in all, Arko's earlygame content was +town, and late content +scum, and while town can make inconsistent actions with no town explanation, it's still a warning to be respected. So my read on Arko has shifted.

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, AurorusVox}
{Bellaphant}
{Kowahbunga}
{BloodB0t, Arko}
{Oclaxian Empire}

Arko remains not scum with Oclaxian Empire in my opinion, but one of them is certainly scum imo.

Vanderscamp and AurorosVox both +town from this shift.

I should note; this reevaluation was for

Arko

. I realize Arko's been replaced by Doctor Drew. I've not read any of Doctor Drew's posts yet, so I've not formed a read on him yet. He may yet bounce the slot back to town. About to tackle that.

[Ranger]

Ranger I can’t tell if their “reevaluation” of arko is legit or fabricated to deflect heat from their own position.

Spent a full 30 minutes pacing back and forth pondering it. (30 minutes is actually a lot; I usually need only 5-10.) I realize that thought likely hasn't been translated with nuance, if people still want clarification despite the new slot holder I can see if I can explain it better.

Their read list they post on each post has me curious. What's your take on that?

I remain not fond of Kowahbunga's slot. Their contributions are lackluster and lack depth. This not only felt like theater, but also lacking critical thought. Kowahbunga didn't engage

me

, and is avoiding doing so.

This just reeks of fake hunting.

Calling it 'hunting' is more generous than what I would say. :P

[Ranger]

P4

Skipped a bit ahead. P8

So that's skipping pages 5, 6, and 7?
6 I understand.
5 and 7 both start with plurality talk but transition into content later on.

My first reaction to skipping three pages was "this is suspect", but seeing the pages in question, I understand how someone would think it no big loss to skip them.

Bonus points; I've reignited my Oclaxian Empire scumread. I missed something before:

Yes it is, because we were an English major in college pre-COVID. That’s *what* English majors do: look at sentences and pick them apart.

How likely do you think it that an

English major

would have their wording be unclear? It implies they said exactly what they meant to say--and in doing so, revealed themselves scum.

[Ranger]

I'm liking Bella's posts.

The Ox/Ranger spat seems.....petty? I dunno, hope it gets fleshed out a bit in the next few pages......legit pings me as scum v scum.

This is a weird take. I'm not sure what alignment the weirdness is; gun to head, I'd say +scum.

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, AurorusVox, Bellaphant}
{Kowahbunga, BloodB0t, Doctor Drew}
{Oclaxian Empire}

p14.

[Ranger]

Bella's math derpiness seems genuine and towny to me, but I don't think Kowahbunga is +scum for SRing it. I didn't like 311 and 312 though.
I'm also feeling wary of Aisa but not sure if it's from the afterglow of chatgpt. Her vote on me certainly doesn't help. @Aisa can you say a little bit more about why you're SRing me?

Hate this post.


Aisa's 355 is very good.


Weirdly, 364 is reading as gut-town. I don't know why.

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, AurorusVox, Bellaphant}
{Doctor Drew}
{Kowahbunga, BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

p15.

[Ranger]

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, AurorusVox, Bellaphant}
{Doctor Drew}
{Kowahbunga, BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

I'm comfortable locktowning Aisa right now.

Vanderscamp's posts I don't think are scum.

Bellaphant's posts are good.

AurorusVox might be slightly too high tbh, but is around this strength; I like his posts and points, but he's not

as

town as Vanderscamp/Bellapant rn imo.

Doctor Drew is null. Some good, some bad. Will continue sorting there.

I'm not liking either of Kowahbunga or Bloodb0t, but actually I think the Kowahbunga scumread is slightly stronger.

So, updated reads:

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{Doctor Drew}
{Bloodb0t}
{Kowahbunga}
{Oclaxian Empire}

I'll vote any of bottom 4 right now (although ideally not Doctor Drew; he'd be a compromise vote).

[Ranger]

Ranger, did you miss this?

Apparently.

Don't think it changes anything though.

You're still null.

[Ranger]

I think we'd all happily compromise on Kowahbunga if anyone so much as proposed the vote, and I think it would be a shame to elim someone who has just substituted in, but going easy on replace ins does not a game of mafia make, so
VOTE: Kowahbunga

This is acceptable.

Request however;

Can we commit to

one

wagon?

Oclaxian Empire is a wagon;
Kowahbunga is a wagon;
Both of those wagons are good;
Both have a high chance of being scum.

However, per game mechanics, neither will be the elimination if one of those wagons doesn't move onto the other.

I'll vote whichever of the two.

[Ranger]

Oh, nevermind; we've got that already.
As literally the only players not on the wagon already are voting me, I've no qualms with this;
VOTE: Kowahbunga

If people off my wagon wanted more time, then my apologies but I believe you were on Kowahbunga specifically due to being okay with that day end.
If people on my wagon wanted more time, then you could've gotten it by not having me be the other wagon. :P

Eliminating a scumread > eliminating the only player I know is guaranteed to be town. 100%.

[Ranger]

I'm having a hard time believing you believe this.

You seem to have strayed from my argument. I'm not sure how to engage when you're talking about something different than the original point.

[Ranger]

Ranger, who is your 100% totally town guaranteed no lie?

Myself.

I've no read comparable in strength to my read on Ranger. :P

(If you meant who my strongest townread is, that'd be Aisa tho.)

VOTE: Ranger

[Ranger]

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{Bloodb0t}
{Doctor Drew}
{Oclaxian Empire}

Think I like this better.

[Ranger]

I don't believe you believe either of these things.

Well I do. As I am the one thinking, it is my belief we shall side with. ;)

My point was, essentially;
You said "I don't believe you have this read".
The reason for that read was vibes/gut.
You developed a vibes/gut read on the slot identical to mine.
Yet you don't believe I had the read off of vibes/gut.

It's definitely possible I was wrong about the overlap in posts vibed as town.

The hypocrisy remains.

Your entire reason for suspecting me is based off belief I didn't believe my read.
My read, off the exact same thing you read that exact same slot, the exact same way.

I know I was genuine the same way you know you were genuine.

[Ranger]

That’s maybe a townie perspective more than not.

I agree Vander is town.

I happen to think Vander is being blinded by Oclaxian Empire sharing their erroneous scumread on me, as without the Ranger scumread, there is far less favorable in Oclaxian's iso.

I'll vote Vander if there's no other option. However, his wrong scumread is a threat. If the game comes down to a heaven vote and he advocates for my death there, we lose because I'm town.

I'd much prefer someone like you if I had to.

I'm voting myself because I am the only slot I know to be town. At some point consolidation must occur, but it need not be this moment.

7. Do I stick with something similar to my current reads, or do I need to throw them out and restart from scratch?

The answer is always both. Throw everything out at every stage, but past reasons build off of new reasons. Remove all past reasons for a read. Start over, resort, and form a new opinion. Then take the previously-discarded reasons and bring them back. If prior reads match the new read, then those reads are stronger. If prior reads conflict with the new read, then focus on sorting the conflict; whichever is stronger after the sort will result in a stronger read.

I've a need to do this myself, been having a rough week so hoping to get that done tomorrow.

[Ranger]

How do you feel about Drew's posting since the flip?

Not great.

If there was scum on the D1 wagon, it was Drew. I'm not getting town vibes rn at all.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Vander

Vanderscamp (3):

Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox.

Ranger (1):

Ranger.

Bellaphant (1):

Aisa.

Not Voting (2):

Bellaphant, BloodB0t.

To be blunt, I don't think all four votes on Vander are town.

That'd mean all of {Aisa, Bellaphant, Bloodb0t} would be scum.

As I don't believe those three to all be scum, the conclusion: there

must

be scum on Vander.

I think Aisa is town strongly, and while I'm not sure on my exact Bella read, Bella's above null to me.

I firmly believe {Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox, Doctor Drew} contains 2-3 scum (probably two, with Bloodb0t as the third).

If Vanderscamp is town (my current theory), it's because the scum believe Vander in heaven is +scum.

I

hate

the Doctor Drew vote there in particular.

[Ranger]

Agree Aureal is fairly good vibes

Seconded.

This does necessitate a reassessment from he.

VOTE: Aisa
I'm comfortable sending Aisa to heaven.

I need to reassess my reads to find who to send to hell. (My pool had Aureal's slot there, so with Aureal towning it up, my reads need a reset.)

I'm a bit busy today so I'll handle a reassess tomorrow.

[Ranger]

Also worth noting is that I've been a heaven contender for a while, but Ranger has never voted me because they've been worried about the people on my wagon.

Your statement has a flaw, so to correct your misunderstanding:

If Vanderscamp is town, it's because the scum believe Vander in heaven is +scum.

I'll vote Vander if there's no other option. However, his wrong scumread is a threat.

If the game comes down to a heaven vote and he advocates for my death there, we lose because I'm town.

I'd much prefer someone like [Aisa] if I had to.

This was my reason for voting Aisa.

Simply put, Vander: if you are town, if you go to heaven, and if the game comes down to the decision of heaven, you're going to vote me out, and the town will lose because of your bias.

I've trust in Aisa to be more open-minded because you seem convinced I'm scum. None of the players raising points for why I'm town has swayed you. None of the players pointing out the flaws in your logic have put doubts in you. You are not open to me being town because plenty have given the reasons why I'm town and why I'm not scum and your scumread remains firm.

Since I know I'm town and I know the game can come to a heaven decision, placing someone into heaven who is convinced I'm scum will let the scum win.

The wagon compositions have nothing to do with my vote. Not wanting you to cost the town the game by being unwavering in your unjustified conviction I'm scum has everything to do with my vote.

What do you mean if there was scum on the wagon?

Exactly what I said. 'If' is the accurate descriptor.
It's possible for the entire wagon to be town if {Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, BloodB0t} is scum.
There's Vander-Oclaxian interactions which would support that.
There's Oclaxian-BoodB0t interactions which would support that.
So, it is fully possible the wagon could indeed be all town, because there are potential associatives between all three members off the wagon.

The 'if' is for when that team isn't the solve. Statistically speaking it's quite unlikely for all scum to be off a D1 mislim, and reads-wise I don't think all the scum were off the wagon.

I'm approaching from a viewpoint of not assuming anything one way or another.

I'll give a more thorough reassessment tomorrow.

[Ranger]

Mod: V/LA for another 24 hours or so

Apologies, too exhausted to play right now. (Full disclosure, that might happen a lot the next couple weeks. Work got busy, and I'm suffering from it.)

I'll say this in the meanwhile.

I believe the scum were initially opposed to sending Aisa to heaven, but jumped onboard when they realized it would be advantageous for them to remove the only player defending me.

Aisa pointed out herself she's the only player who was defending me.
So a question; who am I scum with?

I'm not scum with anyone because everyone is willing to kill me, and Aisa--the player removed--was the only one who had a counter-opinion to this.

I believe I can find who the scum are more specifically if I am not as mentally exhausted as I am today.
I believe the wagons do tell who is likely scum, and from analysis we can get a better idea of who is scum, with content refining this further.

Wish I could give more right now, but again; exhausted, tired, can't think properly about things.

I promise I'll respond and go indepth into things when able to.

[Ranger]

But when you get back, Enchant does seem a bit worried to see you elim'ed it seems.....

Enchant's the Oclaxian Empire slot, correct?

I think our interactions say plenty of us not being scumbuddies. Plus there's three scum not two. Who am I teamed with?

(I also am too tired today, nearly died driving. Today needs to be rest as well.)

[Ranger]

There seems to be some frustration in her last post, and even some TMI in asking who she would be scum with, really don't like it at all.

There's certainly frustration in the main accusation against me

the whole game

being "Ranger seems like she has TMI". (This is not an accusation I can defend against because it's not logical. I know it's wrong but arguing is just "I think Ranger has TMI" "I don't, so you're wrong" "well I think you have TMI and I'm right". How am I meant to engage in that?)

That is genuinely the backbone of

every

argument against my slot. (Perhaps because it is easy to make an impossible to defend against?)

That said,
My post was more a call to critical analysis and looking through things logically.

If I were scum it'd be a fact I'd have two scumbuddies.

Every player stating I am scum must therefore also be held accountable for solving to find said alleged scumbuddies. Failure to do so shows lack of critical thought. As town, that's severe bias; as scum, that's a tell.

So my challenge is to separate the town suspicious of me from the scum:

Town players suspecting me should be able to reason their way into finding a plausible scumteam.

Scum players will need to risk blowing their Ranger mislim by tying me to other players which remove their credibility.

I in particular when I am not on the verge of literal death (hopefully tomorrow?) intend to dive into the wagons because I believe there is an effort to eliminate me which is scumdriven, and has been the entire game.

[Ranger]

So why not try to do that?

What makes you think they didn't?

Vanderscamp (3):

Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox.

AurorusVox (1):

Doctor Drew.

Not Voting (2):

Bellaphant, BloodB0t.

Pre Edit: Actually VOTE: Vander
That is E-1.....err, H-1?

I'm fairly certain there was a push to do precisely this. With your self-vote it'd take only one extra townie voting you to pull it off.

If Oclaxian Empire and AurorusVox are scum, they would need one more town player voting you to hammer you into heaven. If Doctor Drew's town, that would be an opportunity. If Doctor Drew's scum, they'd just need a town player to hammer.

It's also possible two scum were off as well, given BloodB0t was being replaced at the time. If only

one

of {Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox} was scum, then all they needed to hammer you was the BloodB0t replacement to come in. Doctor Drew's vote on you seems suspect in that regard.

It's impossible for that pool of four to all be town. {Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox, Doctor Drew}

must

contain a

minimum

of one scum, and could contain 2-3 easily.

I think they wanted you in heaven, but pivoted course. That shift was suspect.

[Ranger]

I don't have any strong scumreads other than Ranger though.

That's a problem.

There's three scum. I asked my question for good reason. If I were scum I'd have scumbuddies. So who are they?

How can you have Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko as your team? It feels pretty unbelievable that you think that, that's probably one of the worst predictions it's possible to have, with the possible exception of something involving OE/Ranger, and probably not even then.

This is also correct and is also a problem.

What do you make of the callout which makes no sense?

Ok, lol. Why suddenly so passionate, after I just said I'm moving towards voting Ranger, your big scumread? Shouldn't that make you feel better?

A good question.


Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.

The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.

[Ranger]

@ranger, I asked you a question you may have missed.

You may have missed this, but I've been reconsidering my Vander read from as early as the end of Hell 1. I'm still figuring my read out on Vander.

[Ranger]

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where?

Difficult to explain exactly, but combination of gamestate and your reads/reasons.

I am being near-universally scumread. You are the strongest two pushers of me being scum. You are both pushing me as scum with solves that are objectively terrible. Vanderscamp refuses to name a team of three, or even a team of two, involving me; your team involves Ranger-Vanderscamp.

The pushes are equally terrible and equally backed by bad logic. Yet, if you were scum together, you wouldn't be pointing out how the other's takes are terrible. Vanderscamp wouldn't be pointing out the flaw in your solve if you were scum with him; you wouldn't be so critical of him if you were scum with him.

The gamestate suggests one of you is scum because of how if both of you are town the scum would be doing absolutely nothing at all. It'd require all three scum within {Doctor Drew, AurorusVox, Enchant, Bellaphant}. Only one of them is voting me. If you were both town, then why have I not been voted by all three scum?

It takes four to eliminate and I have two votes on me. That implies scum is already on me, confirming scum in {Vanderscamp, Doctor Drew}.

If Vanderscamp is town, then Doctor Drew must be scum. Who works as a scumbuddy for Doctor Drew? My current thoughts are you.
If Vanderscamp is scum, then Doctor Drew could still be scum but isn't required to be scum.

[Ranger]

Good news, Ranger, I've found another scum read!

Bad news, Vander! You're working with your scumread!

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Let's shake things up here:

VOTE: Doctor Drew

This is l-1.

I'm starting to think Doctor Drew is scum regardless of which of {Vanderscamp, Aureal} is scum.

[Ranger]

And all it took was my prod of the game lol.

I'm familiar with using Slayer's Gambit as a defense as you are right now.

"This scummy action I did was meant as bait, rather than just being a scummy action".

I'm quite certain you're making stuff up by clinging to it.

You did a +scum action.
You've been scumread for that +scum action.
You trying to claim the +scum action was bait is, suffice to say, not convincing.

[Ranger]

I'll ask you too. What is the 'flaw in my solve' other than it just apparently being impossible for Vander to be bussing you because you say so? You're both just huffing that it's impossible, which doesn't do anything to convince me that you aren't working together.

Well for a start, actions in the game.
I had the opportunity to send Vanderscamp to heaven. I did not.
Vanderscamp has been voting me the entirety of the game, including times where I am placed to L-1.

The words are backed by actions, and are not just words. Objectively, no solve is

impossible

. Any team could happen.

Suggesting that team is disingenous, because the actions and words both back up it being quite unlikely.

By the way, where does this come from?

From a post that got eaten by the thread being locked.

When I said "end of hell 1", I meant

end

of hell 1. I was making a post detailing my suspicion when the thread was locked. My immediate heaven1 posting was recreating the post I lost there, but I admit you've only my word it was typed during hell1.

How is that a scum action? Wouldn't ScumMe just lurk with everyone else and let a town you get mis-elimed? Especially since I already prod dodged, I didn't need to post more.

From my perspective, your posts look exactly like lurking and waiting for me to get mislimmed.


661, 663, 665 are all empty posts. You literally said in 668 you were basically prod-dodging, but you took the stance your prod-dodging was some form of deliberate gambit.

[Ranger]

Ranger, if I'm to believe you're town, what sort of scumteam am I supposed to believe is reasonable? Bella and AV feel town from their posting style, so that would leave me just Vander/Drew/Enchant. And nobody thinks Drew and Enchant are scum together because of the Arko/Oclax fight to start the game.

Well "from posting style" is a poor method of clearing slots in a team game where people have incentive to be strongly town as scum.

I'd also point out it IS worth reconsidering clearing the team from a fight involved between two slots no longer in the game. The Arko/Oclaxian fight looked unpaired at the time; it is worth reconsidering

every

assumption later on. In particular, the slots' more recent interactions.

Do I have a coherent solve myself, no. I'm regrettably dealing with a fever of over 100 right now, so my capability to analyze teams has been limited severely. Still, the process of doubting simple conclusions is better.

I feel your doubt of Vander-Ranger being antibuddies while clearing Drew/Enchant of the same is quite suspect for instance. There's far far

far

more evidence against Vander-Ranger than there is against Drew-Enchant.

[Ranger]

Can you give an example of a team of three that has interactions and associative reads that you think makes less sense than Ranger/Me/Arko?

Personally, I'm biased, but I cannot. That combo is the least-sensible to me of all possibilities.

Ranger, I'm ready to put our differences aside and lim a scum together!
I do not believe that Aureal believes anything they're saying.
Their responses to me sound like justification rather than evaluation.

I'm inclined to agree, but I've hesitance based on being skeptical of your alignment.

I'll swap if need be, or if I do the analysis I've been wanting to do. (I need a break, am heating up. Reminder, I'm sick so I need rest. I can be back before the deadline but I do need to step away to not literally die.)

[Ranger]

Your first post in the heaven phase doesn't say anything about re-thinking your Vander read. Or any post anywhere else that I could find until you mentioned it just now.

In 449 and 490 I was beginning to have doubts on Vander town. In 491 I specify "if there were scum on the wagon", which means 2-3

off

the D1 wagon. (Which includes Vander.) You think I didn't know Vander was off the wagon when I said 2-3 scum off the wagon? Because I did. By stating 0-1 scum on the wagon, I was stating 2-3 off, which is a pool including Vander.

505, Vander in a group of four containing 2-3 scum.
540, reassessing reads further.
553, "if Vander town", not "Vander town". I lay out the possible scumteams.
628 reinforced.

The doubt was there.

I admit sickness and exhaustion has kept me from delving into the read as much as I'd like to have.

Simply put, I know for a fact I had the doubt because I am the one who was thinking in the first place. I may have failed to express it properly; I still had it.

[Ranger]

For a while, the only votes on Ranger were Drew and me, two confirmed town from my POV.
Does scum never take the opportunity to hammer Ranger there?

I seem to recall someone gave an answer to this:

This isn't ELO, a quickhammer wouldn't end the game. If you're town, scum aren't all going to want to pile on just cuz since that will trigger judgment day for Aisa to make a last ditch effort to eliminate a mafiaoso. They ought to be worried about piling onto a bad wagon.

If you are mafia, Vander, then this doesn't apply;
If Aureal is mafia, then Aureal is explaining why scum didn't pile on.

Either way, the explanation for why I wasn't voted out by scum is there.

If you are scum, then the scum couldn't pile on.
If Aureal is scum, then the scum could've but deliberately avoided doing so.

Tomorrow (24h from now), I'll review AV interactions/stances and others' view of AV.

[Ranger]

To both Enchant and Aureal, what do you think my team is?

I'm at the stage where I'm convinced you're not scum with Aureal, but I don't see how you could possibly both be town. (The game would be an absolute travesty of a mess if the scum were Bella/Enchant watching the three loudest town players be absolutely

convinced

the others are scum. I don't subscribe to that theory.)

That leaves four teams from my perspective:
{Vanderscamp, Enchant}
{Vanderscamp, Bella}
{Aureal, Enchant}
{Aureal, Bella}

I need to take a look at those teams, ideally tonight. (Am multitasking.)

[Ranger]

Looking at just page 30, I do lean towards the most likely two combos of the four being,
{Vanderscamp, Enchant}
or
{Aureal, Bellaphant}

Enchant vs Aureal makes it unlikely both are scum given one scum elimination wins the town the game. It's

possible

(gambiting on neither being eliminated), but unlikely.

Since {Vanderscamp, Aureal} is never a team (same as above only much stronger), by PoE, the only team with Aureal would be Bellaphant, and 738 supports this as possible.

Inversely, while Enchant did vote Vanderscamp, the unvote and discussion on page 30 fit as a scumbuddy laying the groundwork to leave anti-buddy interactions which don't endanger either party.

Enchant/Areal are seriously pushing each other.
Vanderscamp/Areal are seriously pushing each other.

Enchant/Vanderscamp appear to be doing the opposite.

However, again; just page 30. I need a deep dive of the other 30 pages to get a better read.

[Ranger]

Is there a particular reason why Bella/Enchant isn't a world, other than that we would all suck?

Mostly?

No.

I see you as scum;
I see Aureal as scum;
I see you two can't be scum together.

It's certainly

possible

you're both town, yes. In that world, we all suck.

I want to trust in my competency.

[Ranger]

Having seen Vander's posting,
Having seen Aureal's posting,
Having seen Bella's posting,

I think I'm comfortable doing this:
VOTE: Aureal

I think that's e-1.

[Ranger]

Is there anything specific you'd like me to address?

I honestly don't know.
UNVOTE: Aureal

You still seem like the most likely scum, and I don't know how to engage on read refinement.

Still, your engagement here is making me second-guess myself.

[Ranger]

I feel like rangers been the 'compromise' since day one though?

I've certainly been the focus.

If i was wrong on Aureal, mafia would already "agree" with my reasoning and vote Aureal out or claim that i am gambitting and vote me.
Aureal is mafia. Like 99.9999999999%.

I'm not so sure--AurorusVox seems to have gone to bat for Vanderscamp harder and with less reasoning than for Aureal.

Looking at AV's iso I'm more sure than ever one of them is scum for AV's interactions with both (Vander strongest town, Aureal slot town), but the Aureal slot read looks slightly more fleshed out in a way indicative of scum justifying the read.

I realize scum could over-justify the read on a scumbuddy, but I feel it's more likely the stronger read lacking the stronger justification is the more suspect of the two.

Still analyzing tho.

[Ranger]

Having looked at Vanderscamp's iso, I definitely see Vanderscamp partnered with Aurorus. Their friendliness with each other was mutual. AV had Vanderscamp as strongest townread essentially unexplained, Vanderscamp townread AV and had interactions with AV which look partnery.

Still, this is early, so not definitive yet.

[Ranger]

Having done an Aureal+BloodB0t iso, their iso is distressingly light on the topic of AurorusVox.

It feels

plausible

for Aureal to be scum with AV. AV justified townreading the slot, didn't have it a the top, and the slot didn't mention him until much later and largely out of focus. (Aureal talked about AV but was not largely focused on AV.)

I see those actions as plausibly scum.

However, so far the Vanderscamp-AV interactions look stronger.

[Ranger]

{Oclax, Vander}
{Vox}

Well this is interesting.

Oclaxian Empire has Vanderscamp as a townread equal to them and Vox just below that.

In a setup which is anti-bus.

And Enchant never mentioned AV at all.

Vander had Oclaxian Empire as the strongest town player in the game, so it was mutual.

It continued with Enchant being one of Vanderscamp's towniest reads.

[Ranger]

Okay so Vox had Vander as strongest townread.
Vox voted for Vander to go to heaven.
Vox defended Oclaxian Empire at points.

Vox justified a BloodB0t/Aureal townread, but had them mid.

Vander had Vox as a strong townread.
Vander defended Oclaxian Empire.

By far the team which seems to fit best is {Vanderscamp, Enchant} given the AV interactions and their interactions with each other, but I admit I'm cutting corners with this analysis.

[Ranger]

Also worth noting that Vox was IIRC the first person to abandon the wagon on me during the heaven phase (I could be wrong about being the first but definitely was one of the early voters on Aisa)
Personally, I feel like two scum making it to heaven is the MUCH easier path to victory for scum in this setup, as opposed to basically trying to win a white flag vanilla game where all of the NKs are decided by town.

My defence of myself here is pretty easy: if I were scum, I would have made it to heaven on D2.
We even know that the Aisa wagon was started by a scum at this point.

About that.

2.02

Votecount 2.02

Vanderscamp (3):

Vanderscamp, Oclaxian Empire, AurorusVox.

I think the scum tried.

Oclaxian Empire is Enchant.

If three scum vote together, there's no scum to hammer scum into heaven. They have to rely on town hammering.

All it takes for scum to give up on the idea is fear it'd be suspect.

Vanderscamp being in heaven as scum would make people scrutinize the wagon of those voting Vander. It would put suspicion on all three voters.

Per the math, Hell 2 would eliminate 1/3, placing us in 4:2 or 5:1. During heaven 2, get someone off the Vander wagon into heaven, leaving at either 3:2 or 4:1. During Hell 3, eliminate a second of the 3, placing the game at 2:2 (where the townie eliminates the final voter), 3:1, or 4:0.

Mathematically, if three scum vote a scum into heaven on Heaven 1 and the town doesn't vote people on that heaven wagon into heaven and votes exclusively players on the heaven1 wagon to hell: scum can't win.

All it takes for scum to realize they can't win is to math it out as I do, requiring a hard-pivot away from the original strategy.

Don't pretend scum are going to have one plan at the beginning of the game, stick to it the entire time, and then never pivot from it. Scum can, and will, reconsider. They can come up with your plan, Vanderscamp; "It's easier to win with two scum sent to heaven".
And then try to enact it.

And then realize it's a bad idea, and pivot away.

Which is exactly what looks like happens.

[Ranger]

Firstly, Ranger, you have BY FAR the shittest and most condemning voting logic of any player left alive, as I've talked about several times today (and no one else has jumped on or even responded to, I wonder why)

Maybe because I actually don't.

Just a thought.

But you don't explain anywhere in this post why scum would suddenly "give up on the idea and fear it'd be suspect," you just seem to assume that the entire scumteam had some kind of revelation about it.

Well yes. And?

That was my point.

Scum reevaluate. We as town don't know when they do until the game has ended. It could happen at any time for any reason.

Why

did

AurorusVox hop off of you?

It was scum-motivated to vote you, because AV was scum.
It was scum-motivated to hop off you, because AV hopped off.

Why did a scum-AV think voting you was beneficial to scum,

and then

decide voting you was detrimental to scum?

We know AV voted you.
We know AV was scum.
Ergo, we know AV believed voting you was +scum.

We know AV unvoted you.
We know AV was scum.
Ergo, we know AV believed unvoting you was +scum.

If AV believed voting you was +scum initially, but then swapped to unvoting you because he thought unvoting you was +scum, what does that necessitate?

Inherently, it means

AurorusVox changed his mind

.
Inherently, it means

AurorusVox reevaluated

.

We have proof scum reevaluated. If AV hadn't reevaluated, he would've kept his vote on you.
That he unvoted proved scum reevaluated.

The question isn't IF scum reevaluated. We've got the proof they did.
The question is, "what was the nature of the reevaluation?".

To me the far most likely reason for the reevaluation is concluding a voting bloc of scum is a bad idea.

[Ranger]

So, are you happy to vote based on wagonomics here?

I vote on wagonomics to be sure.

My wagonomics simply say something different than yours.

They suggest the scum have been trying to eliminate me the entire game, and compromising onto town to distract from scum.

Kowabunga was voting Oclaxian Empire D1. I was focused on Oclaxian Empire D1. There was an Oclaxian Empire wagon.

Scum focused on me and Kowabunga meant regardless of which {Kowabunga, Ranger} died, scum didn't.

On hell2, scum focused on {Ranger, Doctor Drew, Aureal}. Regardless of which they voted, that would be town voted out.

You said it yourself, Vander; scum working together is something you think would be strong in this setup.

Scum look coordinated in the VCs to avoid votes on {Enchant, Vanderscamp} from forming.

So I follow the wagonomics. They indicate I'm right.

[Ranger]

I have trouble seeing it.

Funny, so do I.

But either way, Ranger had votes for a large amount of the day with a lot of people talking about how consensus a kill it was.

Which players formed that consensus?

You did.
Oclaxian Empire did.
AurorusVox supported you there.
Seems like a lot of players did--including scum.

I wonder why so many players were supporting killing me? Too many for them to all be town.

And for reasons which have honestly been fairly nonexistent.
Accusations of TMI, and now "Ranger has been scumread the entire game therefore she must be scum", are the majority of the reason on me.

Perhaps the reason you're not gaining support on me is because town players capable of critical reasoning have looked at me and came to the conclusion the push on me is empty.

[Ranger]

I think you aren't scum, it's the read I'm the most confident in by far.

I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I don't think it need be said {Enchant, Aureal} aren't paired.
I know I'm town.
Therefore every team you propose I know is wrong.

If your only reason for writing Vanderscamp off is off of him looking town, you should reevaluate the interactions in the game and view the lens of all slots.

[Ranger]

why did Vox even vote me in the first place?

A good question!

One which proves my point.

You can assume that Vox randomly had a revelation midway through and changed his mind, but I don't get why you would think that would be the case.

The very fact he unvoted proves he changed his mind, likely due to a revelation.

If he didn't change his mind, he wouldn't have unvoted.

Ergo, he must have had

something

change his mind.

What would make him change his mind, Vander?

Something did!

What was it?

I posit not wanting to be caught voting scum into heaven.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Vanderscamp

I feel comfortable with this.

Vanderscamp has consistently been trying to sell a narrative which doesn't line up with the facts, downplaying the connections between {AurorusVox, OE/Enchant, Vanderscamp} and trying to insist on empty logic "Ranger is scum".

Even without the knowledge I'm town, the simple fact is he has tried to take control of the game at every stage, to get his will in place, and the interactions of flipped scum and most likely partnered scum support a scum effort to direct the town into eliminating town.

Even now, Vanderscamp is calling for the elimination of two players I believe are town.
"Elim Aureal, Aisa please shoot Ranger" "Elim Ranger, Aisa please shoot Aureal".

Vanderscamp knows both will flip town, so directing us to eliminate one and have Aisa shoot the other would...
...leave scum with a win.

[Ranger]

Also I feel like Vanders deserves a special shout out, fmpov all 38 pages of you screaming that Ranger was scum were sorely necessary and I’m not sure how this game would have gone if not for you

You've no idea.

I was 30 seconds too late to post a post. I was typing it, had it finished, thread was unlocked when I hit submit, but got locked as I hit submit so it didn't go through.

[Ranger]

Thoughts on the setup?
I would have liked another Heaven phase personally.

It's absurdly townsided as-is.

The town has

five

chances to vote out

two

scum, and the scum have

zero

counterplay.

For reference: in a normal 7:2 micro, a town has four chances to vote out two scum, and that's with scum having the counterplay of a nightkill.

In a 10:3 mini, a town has five chances to vote out three scum, and that's with scum having the counterplay of a nightkill.

This setup, without scum having counterplay, offers the town an

extra

chance to win compared to games

with

a nightkill. Kills buff scum, so an absence of them buffs town; having an extra elimination buffs town; with double-buffs, the game is virtually unlosable for the town mathematically. The extra scum is actually

detrimental

to their chances of winning, because mathematically they've a much higher chance of being found every day.

With one town voted out Hell1, there's 5:3.
With one town sent to Heaven, there's 4:3.
In 4:3, the town has

three

chances to catch two scum.
Miss in 4:3, and judgement 1. Hit scum 1, and game goes to 3:2.
Miss in 3:2, and judgement 2. The townie in heaven has a 50% chance to win the game, on the last elimination, with four players to select from.

All it'd take to make it balanced imo is EITHER: removing a second judgement phase (town only gets one, if the town blows it on the next Hell phase they just lose), OR: start the game on a Heaven phase to give more Heaven phases.

[Ranger]

Given the team was Ranger/Bella I'm really glad Enchant hammered me over Aureal, I think the game becomes a lot easier to win.

Oh certainly.

Enchant hammering you while I was indisposed was a massive inconvenience.

I knew there was a high chance my irl schedule prevented me from contributing meaning you'd get the last word in (and I knew that'd bias Aisa against me because whoever speaks last has more credibility); Enchant actually hammering you meant I had even less time and less avenues.

An Aureal mislim would definitely had been better.

[Ranger]

Ranger: I think your counterplay is getting one scum voted into heaven, because at that point you're basically playing a normal 5 vs 2 with some additional outs to get a 2 scum heaven win.

Which runs into the issue I mentioned:
If two scum voted one scum into heaven, and the town accounts for this, the scum are in a no-win scenario. Mechanically, if scum is voted into heaven, town should treat every voter for the scum into heaven as scum. That's the mechanically-correct play.

It becomes winnable with only one scum voting scum into heaven; the odds are still not good.

The only time this backfires is if neither remaining scum was on the scum-to-heaven wagon. In short, an effectively all-town wagon sending scum to heaven.

[Ranger]

Also omg gonna take a few pages out of your scumgame the next time I roll red

Uh, sure. Glad to be an inspiration I guess. :P
(I don't know what you saw inspiration-worthy but power to you I suppose!)

[Ranger]

Oh dear... reading Ranger's ISO, either someone's an extremely fearsome scum player in this game, or the scumteam is exactly Bella + Vox + Enchant.

I appreciate the compliment. <3

[Ranger]

Pretty funny that Vanders is getting that Aureal post quoted at him, I'm like relatively sure there's an older Vanders post where he clearly states that scum cannot just quickhammer, lol.

So was I! I initially looked for Vander saying it since I set out to find Vander's own words and use them against him, but I couldn't find them. :P

I figured I misremembered and it was Aureal all along.

I guess I was right and Vander did, I just couldn't find it.