Micro 309: Triplicate Mafia (Game Over)

[BipolarChemist]

I agree, I would much prefer to be in with coconuts for two reasons:

1) I love coconuts.

2) I wanted to lynch Whoooo.

[BipolarChemist]

Well, then we will have to wait.

[BipolarChemist]

I wanna call Blackfish's overt pushing more town. Pushing out of the RVS I find is always good and gets discussion going, which is clearly has.

I'm also more inclined to believe TR's question was more meaningless due to the vague opening post. But I do think it would be an interesting mechanic to have this same game set-up but the three groups isolated until Day 2.

Is it possible to vote for no lynch in a group?

[BipolarChemist]

Okay, Mr. Grumpy-Grumps.

[BipolarChemist]

Why did you ask this question? Like, I want to know where your head was at. The reason I phrased that colloquially is because I am not attaching any value judgement to my question. I genuinely want to know.

I guess curiosity. Never seen this set-up and I wanted to know and I thought the mod or other players would know better. Must have skimmed over it in the rules.

[BipolarChemist]

I wanna call Blackfish's overt pushing more town. Pushing out of the RVS I find is always good and gets discussion going, which is clearly has.

The phrasing of this post is odd. You "wanna" call my overt pushing more town? What does that mean? Does it mean that you want to but can't?

It means I'm leaning more town on your pushing, but I'm not willing to say you're on my town list or anything.

[BipolarChemist]

To be clear, I am proposing we more or less completely leave out cross group discussion until D2 and let each group kind of decide their own fate. This is because this will automatically put the scum at a disadvantage, I think, by keeping them from working together to influence the other groups. Any thoughts on this?

Leaving out cross group discussion also keeps the other townies from influencing the other groups which I don't like. Looking at things on a larger scale allows us to draw connections and establish relational tells among everyone so that when we are out of our groups, we have even more interactions to work with in addition to just the in-group interactions.

I agree. Not allowing input from the other groups makes it more likely that scum will influence, as in a group with a scum will have 1 mafia vs 2 town, where if we all work together, it's 7 town vs 2 mafia.

So really I say we treat like a normal day phase, garnering reads and give ourself a list to work from in the teams.

[BipolarChemist]

I wanna believe that players will understand who is in their group, especially with the vote counts constantly reminding us.

[BipolarChemist]

We heard from formerfish early on with no follow up.

@FF, thoughts on how the day should be conducted? scumreads?

[BipolarChemist]

Reasons why this is a bad idea:

1) It denies us associative tells. I signed up for this game because it by-default gives me structure groups to work with, which saves me a lot of time in my scum hunting process. Being able to cross-reference the setup's structure groups with those that I'll eventually end up building naturally gives me a lot more ability to be precise early in my scum hunting. I'm also assuming that there are other people who like to scum hunt by associative tells.

2) I don't know most of the other players in this game, which means that I don't trust the scum hunting abilities of the group as a whole. Given that I'm likely dead by day 2, I'd like to have reads across the game in play so that people have that reference point. Additionally, it means that I have more ability to influence getting scum lynched in the other two groups, which increases my chances of surviving to day 2 to wreck the game.

tl;dr, doing this limits my ability to carry, and I don't trust anyone else in this game to carry because I assume incompetent until proven otherwise.

You're right about associative tells, it would be dumb to ignore a scum tell and let another group figure it out. This is also very important for Day 2 reads, that we work together.

The "I'll be dead by day 2" thing always annoys me, not a scum tell or anything, it's just redundant and does nothing towards reads.

Bro, what do you think about blackfish? He is quite aggressive out of the gate.

[BipolarChemist]

New thought about the voting: If every group lynches Town, that would be a loss. If all groups have a Town vote on Town at the same time, Scum could quickhammer for a win.

This isn't fully true, as one group has no scum, and if all town are lynched, it would be 3 town vs 2 mafia the next day, but the mafia would have made it pretty obvious who they are.

[BipolarChemist]

From my skim I'm not a huge fan of RedC for his position on how the game should be played, my fishy counterpart is questionable, and whoever said Blackfish was town for continuing to push a bullshit tell. That's who I'd be looking at as scum.

Do you think Blackfish's overt pushing is too much to the point of being scummy? Or maybe overzealous town?

I'm leaning overzealous town, but he is quickly picking some fights early in the game, which could lead to a decent sized distraction.

[BipolarChemist]

...what?

If that's the case then there's even more reason not to only scumhunt within our own groups.

Either I'm too drunk to remember but I do believe that's what I have been saying

I haven't really looked into page 3 and the latter half of 2 yet so I don't know much about Who but I have a 65.89% townread on you, 18.67% scumread on you, and the other 15.44% in constantly in flux.

This is quite possibly the most interesting reads I've seen! Are these numbers based on anything? I'm legit curious to know!

[BipolarChemist]

Do you think Blackfish's overt pushing is too much to the point of being scummy? Or maybe overzealous town?

I'm leaning overzealous town, but he is quickly picking some fights early in the game, which could lead to a decent sized distraction.

I don't like this post.

Wanna like add to this or ya just gonna leave it there?

Alright cool...

[BipolarChemist]

Why not? He brings up an honest point. Why did you focus on the Private Thread thing for so long, anyway? What made you think it wasn't just nothing?

Sorry if I'm missing somethingbut who is this directed at?

[BipolarChemist]

Do you think Blackfish's overt pushing is too much to the point of being scummy? Or maybe overzealous town?

I'm leaning overzealous town, but he is quickly picking some fights early in the game, which could lead to a decent sized distraction.

I don't like this post for several reasons.

The first is the hedging. You lean overzealous town on me but you also think that I could be scum. It feels like a whole lot of nothing.

The second is the content. How am I "

picking fights

" and "

leading to a distraction

?" At the point I was pushing the game forward, the only discussion in thread was what I generated to get us out of RVS. It wasn't like there was a ton of content that I trying to bury by creating pointless side arguments. Besides, how is pushing on people and questioning them a "

distraction

?" That's how the game is played.

The third is your phrasing of my actions. "

Picking fights early in the game

" as opposed to "

scumhunting, questioning people

", "

overzealous

" as opposed to "

pro-active

". You spin my actions in a negative way which is at odds with your townread on me. It feels more like you are trying to justify a scumread and strikes me as dissonant like you don't actually believe in your read but you think it is a read that you should have if you were town. (Calling the aggressive, active players town is a fairly common scum strategy).

Your townread on me overall feels slimy and wobbly. If you didn't think that I was town, there would be no reason to announce it. But, you say that I am town anyways (unnecessarily) despite the fact that you don't actually seem to have a read with any amount of confidence.

My initial thoughts on you were town doing scumhunting, as I stated before, but your posts have been very aggressive, which I don't think you can deny. I don't know your playstyle, so I can't tell where you lie right now and I'm back and forth between town and scum with you. What could be scumhunting, could easily be scum trying to control the lynches of the day.

I've seen you ask others for some links to games where they were town or scum, would you be willing to do the same?

[BipolarChemist]

I don't want to reveal my main although I wouldn't mind if you still want it after the game.

Both scum and town try to control the lynches of the day. Why does that give you cause for concern? Would you expect town to lie down and not attempt to control who gets lynched?

I've seen it quite often that the loud player of the day either gets lynched or controls the lynch. When someone is being so aggressive, mafia have a good chance of getting them lynched if the loud player is town. They can also get the lynch with having very little, if any, flack coming their way.

[BipolarChemist]

This doesn't answer my question. Why do you find aggression and controlling the lynches of the day to be scum motivated behaviors. Aren't they things that both scum and town aim for?

I find over-aggression to either be dangerous for a townie, as it could lead to an easy lynch that mafia could drive, or as mafia it could allow for mafia to have control over the day. Either way, I find over-aggression bad and I'm worried you're bordering on overly aggressive.

[BipolarChemist]

Because there are two scum working together and the one town would be alone. It's simply power in numbers and I see an aggressive scum being able to control a lynch more than aggressive town.

[BipolarChemist]

^That was to Blackfish (forgot to quote oops)

[BipolarChemist]

For my group, I'm still fairly null on FF and I have a town read on Bro.

In coconut: Who has been quiet lately, after the discussion of how we should play the day out, he didn't seem to have much to say. I haven't been fully following LeMidget, but I do enjoy his percentages.

Finally, in Avocado: This is the only group I'm remotely confident in my reads. Tier hasn't posted in a while and I would like his input on that last couple of pages, but I do have a town read from early game on him. GM is working nicely towards discussion. I could see RC as scum, and would be my choice for this group for a lynch. His reads feel odd and forced.

[BipolarChemist]

Scum Game: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... ame-Thread
Town Game: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... ame-thread

RC, who do you think the scum is within our group atm and why?

By default I am leaning toward goodmorning for being a little too wordy and having too much of a forced presence.

This is the post that jumps out at me as forced.

To be clear, I am proposing we more or less completely leave out cross group discussion until D2 and let each group kind of decide their own fate. This is because this will automatically put the scum at a disadvantage, I think, by keeping them from working together to influence the other groups. Any thoughts on this?

This one felt the most odd and I completely disagree with his logic. I think his logic would stifle conversation and is overall scummy.

[BipolarChemist]

I find BRO to be fairly off the cuff in his remarks and speaking fairly openly. I'd equate that with being fairly town. I like the way he is contributing to discussion.

I'm not sure you've given thoughts on BRO past "I like BRO's posts. All of them." Do you have some updated thoughts in BRO?

For LeMidget's numbers, I think they are somewhat playful but I wouldn't say they are indicative of alignment.
For Who's quietness, I'd say that is a lot more indicative of alignment and I believe enough has gone on that he should have some opinions on the matter.

I'm still fairly null on GM, but I think he's contributing enough, at least more than some people (Who!).

[BipolarChemist]

I now I am going to bed.

[BipolarChemist]

That's my only one.

[BipolarChemist]

Wait, I'm wrong. Found another: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... -Robertson

[BipolarChemist]

Hmm ok you are probably town even though some of your earlier reads/plans are really stupid

Uhh thanks...I guess -.-

I don't believe I stated any earlier reads, could you elaborate on this?

I'm pretty sure I dislike talking to you and will refrain from doing so unless you ask useful questions.

I don't blame you for saying this, as it is quite annoying. After last page, Blackfish needs to calm the fuck down. Tiershift is pretty obviously antagonizing you on purpose.

I planned to expose the scum in your group

By the way, you want to comment on how it is you intend to expose the scum in my group given that one of the groups consist of three townies? But you know that our group has one scum in it, yes?

This is one of the (very) few good points RC's made this game. BF, which group do you think is all town?

[BipolarChemist]

If I had to guess, and I know the question isn't directed towards me, I honestly think there's a decent chance Coconut is all town.

What makes you think this?

[BipolarChemist]

Because there are two scum working together and the one town would be alone. It's simply power in numbers and I see an aggressive scum being able to control a lynch more than aggressive town.

This too.

Why this one? The way I see it is that two people working together trumps one working alone.

[BipolarChemist]

That's fair.

TS, Who are your top choices for lynch in each group now? Which do you think is all town?

[BipolarChemist]

I have a moderately strong town read on BRO, a very strong townread on BC, and a moderately strong scum read on Formerfish. This is the group I feel most confident about. BRO, BC, thoughts about that?

I think I missed this.

I'm fairly null on BRO. I don't really think he got into much scumhunting until now, but I don't think it's too alignment indicative.

As for FF, a quick run through of his ISO suggests to me a small change in play style. More big one-shot posts. I'm currently null leaning scum on him.

Blackfish, for someone who's consistently pointing out where people's language in other posts makes them appear scummy, you didn't catch that that was what I latched onto in post 80.

Why is that.

I don't think my language is "off" or "scummy."

I don't think your language is scummy, just rude and brash.

[BipolarChemist]

Going off of my reads alone, I'd say my group.

I'm willing to bet either Blackfish or Who is scum, I'm leaning more towards Who at this point.

RC has been gaining some towny points, but I can't look past the stupid comment he made saying we should scum hunt only within our groups. That's just too ignorant and anti-discussion.

I mainly think my group is all town simply because I have stronger scum reads in the other groups.

[BipolarChemist]

Blackfish, you're being an asshole.

Now onto actually important(ish) things.

FF doesn't say much, and when he does it's a lot. BRO entertains me and I believe he's being helpful. I'm willing to also vote FF, but I'm in no rush yet.

I don't like LeMidget's vote on Blackfish, it seems a little too opportunistic, but Blackfish is annoying and it's a toss-up in the group anyways.

I'm not sure what you people see GM doing that's so scummy. I find RC much more so, but my mind has been made up there for days.

Not having other wagons to work with is annoying me.

I agree. Of course, even with votes there are no (Well, sorta) hammers so it's slightly different but no votes means nothing to work with.

Where do you lie on my group and Avocado? Who do you think should be lynched at this point?

[BipolarChemist]

VOTE: Blackfish

Blackfish, get my vote off you. I really don't want to vote you so.

Then why are you voting for him if you don't want to? If you have a stronger scumread on Who, wouldn't that be your better choice?

[BipolarChemist]

That's it. Let's start voting and get this whaleshit done. I'll vote last.

Why do you want to vote last? This seems fairly scummy to me, allowing yourself to gauge the other votes before voting yourself.

Some of you guys are actual idiots though. I am obvtown but you people are acting like I am hard to get a read on. It is amusing.

Dick.

I don't even know anymore.

First time I read this, I didn't like it, but then I realized I feel the exact same way. Confusion Buddies <3

[BipolarChemist]

I never said it made you scum, but I think it needs mentioning.

[BipolarChemist]

BF: I called you a dick and an asshole after you called people 'actual idiots'. That's such a dickish thing to say. The point where players want you out of a game for being an annoying asshole should really tell you something. No these aren't pertinent points, I just am very annoyed by you.

[BipolarChemist]

THIS.



IS.



MAFIA.

This is also just a game, there's no need to call people idiots and mean it.

[BipolarChemist]

Some of you guys are actual idiots though.

This sure as hell sounds like you mean it to me.

[BipolarChemist]

Generally: Is there a person in each group that we can generally agree is Town? I feel it might be helpful for us to pare down our lynchpools further but maybe that would be too open to Scum influence?

Avocado: I'd say we can rule out TierShift, he seems fairly town to me. He let on Blackfish for a while, which was entertaining and I don't see scum doing that.

Blueberry: Me <3 But seriously, I don't have strong reads on either FF or Bro and I have a sneaking suspicion we're the all town group.

Coconut: I think LeMidget can be ruled out as town. Active and working towards scumhunting.

(sorry for being lurky school's caught up with me and been pretty busy)

[BipolarChemist]

I'm willing to bet either Blackfish or Who is scum, I'm leaning more towards Who at this point.

Huh, I don't even remember you ever talking about Who prior to this. I skimmed through your ISO, I don't see any Who quotes either. What gives?

Sorry, like I said been super (unexpectedly) busy. He hasn't posted much to even quote with. I'm finding he's lurking by without getting much serious consideration, then again I've been doing the same for the past couple of days. I quickly ran through some of his older games tonight though. His scum play is a lot more active than his town I found. With that I'm definitely leaning on the Blackfish lynch.

The BRO, BF, Red agreeance there bothers me, it seems like BF and Red are just following along with BRO's being fine with being lynched. Like sheep or something

I'd rather lynch Formerfish than BRO and I think I said it before, that I'm willing to throw my vote on. Since you people wanna move towards a lynch:

VOTE: Formerfish

[BipolarChemist]

lol wow, how did RC not get lynched? GM, you said you'd rather vote Tier when you put a vote on RC, why not lay a vote on Tier then?

[BipolarChemist]

This is boring. Where is everybody?

Does this entice you:

VOTE: RedCoyote

??

[BipolarChemist]

UNVOTE: rc

For now...

[BipolarChemist]

lol wow, how did RC not get lynched? GM, you said you'd rather vote Tier when you put a vote on RC, why not lay a vote on Tier then?

Because at the time I was going to be gone and RC appeared to be a more viable lynch. Was that not obvious from my post?

Sorry, it was, i just need to read more

What exactly was your reasoning for switching votes last minute?

[BipolarChemist]

Also, no Bro or RC here yet? Come on guys!

[BipolarChemist]

I've been traveling, finally have a break.

I'm on vacation this week, traveling a lot, but thankfully this game isn't too long. I want to do a full reread to decide what I want, but I'm pretty much sold on {RC, GM} {Who, BC}, with the currently stronger scum reads on the left.

With those reads, who would you rather see lynched: Who or RC?

UNVOTE: rc

For now...

Why unvote? You're trying too hard to look townie, I think.

I had time on my hands last night, so I voted to see if anyone would try to quick lock. Then I had to go to bed.

[BipolarChemist]

Your join date is 2008?

lol I don't think he got it.

[BipolarChemist]

VOTE: RedCoyote
Thank you for confirming that you're scum. Everyone, let's lynch this scumfuck then attempt to determine which of BpC/BRO is his partner.

Calm down, Mr. Sweary-Pants. As much as I agree he is scum, we shouldn't be rushing to lynch.

[BipolarChemist]

That's nice and all, but even is he is confirmed to you there is still the matter of tomorrow. We should be discussing now instead of later when we have more town members present.

[BipolarChemist]

I will be quite busy for the next few days with some IRL crap, so for now I say RC is super scum. I'd like to hear more from GM before we lynch.

I should hopefully be back Sunday! Sorry again!

[BipolarChemist]

I'm back! Let me get caught up.

[BipolarChemist]

So really I say we treat like a normal day phase, garnering reads and give ourself a list to work from in the teams.

What worries me about this is that it will lead to more accidental votes, I think. I might be a little overcautious, but I'm

actually really

worried about people voting for players outside their groups and catching heat from the Mod for this.

Don't like.

Yeeep. Awkward sentencing.

BC whatever happened to your support of Who? It comes and it goes whenever you feel like it.

I had support in D1, because blackfish was annoying me and I was hoping he was scum. Looking through some of Who's past games, I thought his lack of activity was more a town tell for him than a scum.

To be more clear, I shouldn't have voted as early as I did because I think it limits the discussion now to either me or Who rather than putting the spotlight on BRO and BC.

Backtracking?

See, now I'm frustrated because I realize I look like the bad guy here because I act impulsively as town. Whereas the scumteam have probably been fleshing out their strategy in the QT about what to do if one of them get voted. As soon as I voted Who, it was like he had an entire dissertation ready to unload on me explaining why my vote was a scum vote.

And he knows it's a good argument because there's a lot of validity to what he's saying... but it's like, I didn't go to all these lengths to visit every angle about "What if A votes B?" To me, that sounds more like something scum would do.

LAMIST

Been thinking RC is scummy since early D1, time to find out.

Das Hammer: VOTE: RC

[BipolarChemist]

Yep not tonight. Will be doing a full read through.

[BipolarChemist]

Got the prod. Still at work...

Hopefully later tonight!

[BipolarChemist]

Copying over notes from my handy-dandy note book (Pic would be so much easier, but I wanna link to posts).

Day 1:
7 Bro hatin' on BB, fairly genuine entrance.
8 I hate on Who, fairly genuine response from Who.
15 First vote out and it is by Who on BF.
49 RC posts something dumb. 51 I agree with BF and think RC is dumb.
52 Who agrees with RC, says discussion should mostly stay in groups.
62 Who: "Information we can't use means nothing" Seems pretty anti-discussion.
65 Bro is back - Disagrees with RC. Who is the only to partially agree.
83 Bro likes BF <3
101 Bro attacks BF a bit.
131 Who's back with barebones reads. Bro and I are null.
140 BF with strong town read on me and Bro.
All of Page 7 - RC constantly attacks BF.
200 Series of posts by Bro. 213 Antagonizes BF, I think is lolz.
204 Bro with town read on RC.
All of Page 10 - BF, holy crap, so much, don't wanna read....not gonna read.
252 Redacted comment.
260 Bro with scum read on RC (strong too).
263 I'm annoyed for some reason.
285 hehehehe dick and asshole.
311 RC asks dumb question on me. No acknowledgement of Bro.
316 Bro thinks our group is scumless. Side note: Damn near nothing from Who in almost 200 posts, just one meaningless post and a repeated read.
374 disagree with Bro. For a game with all VTs, being okay with a lynch is a bit different.

Day 1 Notes:
Who voted BF way early on (Post 15) didn't move it and lurked. Felt like he didn't want to help discussion. Scum lean on Who.
Bro was decently active and induced discussion. Town lean.

Day 2:
398-399 I open with a vote on RC a bit later.
400 Who calls RC on being scum.
406 RC votes Who.
407/410 LOL
411 Sounding like a bus from Who.
419 Who super rushing lynch without much input from others.
426 RC unvotes who. Backs off pretty easily. Change of character?
427-433 Bro doing re-read. Basic thoughts, nothing too elaborate.
437 RC pressures me about my stance on Who. RC is doing a lot of work to make Who seem bad.
445 LAMIST, IMO.

Day 2 Notes:
Seemed like Who was bussing RC the whole day. I'm pretty confident on Who being scum. Would like to hear more from Bro.

There! Done my read through, holy crap.

Bro what are you thoughts on Who?
Who, your thoughts on Bro? Some full reads?

[BipolarChemist]

I haven't done my read-through yet, but I have reasons to think both of you are scum.

With you, I didn't like you as much as I did day 1 when I was re-reading yesterday. I noticed some behavior that could have come from a scum position, particularly with how you interacted with blackfish (I don't remember the exact details, but it was a lot of the stuff with you criticizing his disposition towards the game). Additionally, you hammered very quickly yesterday, which could have been scum-you seeing that your buddy was going down and trying to cut off discussion as to prevent yourself from slipping up.

With Who, I don't remember a lot of what he did. That could imply a cross-bus intended to let the other carry in LyLo. This would additionally make sense if Who told RC about his recent scum win over town-me in UPick mafia. Additionally, I early-townread you, and I don't give scum early town reads that often (my rate of doing it is well below 1/game at this point).

I got a little pissed off/annoyed at BF. That was fairly unrelated to game itself.

I did hammer quick yesterday. They day was going basically nowhere and speaking from pure chance it was 50/50 on you and Who, and 50/50 on GM and RC. RC seemed scummy for quite a while and like there was the best chance there, so I went for it.

I believe you early town read both of us, at least in 260.

[BipolarChemist]

Those are very strange odds, could you elaborate as to what you mean by them?

About your hammer, as you yourself said:

VOTE: RedCoyote
Thank you for confirming that you're scum. Everyone, let's lynch this scumfuck then attempt to determine which of BpC/BRO is his partner.

Calm down, Mr. Sweary-Pants. As much as I agree he is scum, we shouldn't be rushing to lynch.

That's nice and all, but even is he is confirmed to you there is still the matter of tomorrow. We should be discussing now instead of later when we have more town members present.

Why didn't we discuss things more yesterday when we had more town members present? Because you hammered.

The odds aren't strange. From my position, I was sure there was scum in group A, making it technically 50/50 there. Then 50/50 between you and Bro.

I did say the calm down, more because Bro had barely posted, same with GM. Day wasn't going far at that point, at least from my point of view coming back after a couple days.

[BipolarChemist]

And how were you so sure of there being scum in group A? Why couldn't it be BRO and I?

I didn't see this as a possibility, an over sight maybe, but I didn't see any sort of connection.

I believe you early town read both of us, at least in 260.

That list has Who in the null category.

And so you do, it's been a long day

[BipolarChemist]

Guys, are you doing your full reads? We're all going on yet another mass prod soon.

[BipolarChemist]

*whistles*

*plays solitaire*

[BipolarChemist]

Come on...

[BipolarChemist]

Prods...?

[BipolarChemist]

Who literally just hit 48 hours.

But I'm bored.

[BipolarChemist]

BpC, whom do you currently think we should lynch?

Dude, I already said who I think like a few posts back. Please read the game thread, ya?

[BipolarChemist]

This is going nowhere. Who, Same question to you, who do you think we should lynch?

[BipolarChemist]

I agree, I would much prefer to be in with coconuts for two reasons:

1) I love coconuts.

2) I wanted to lynch Whoooo.

Well you can't lynch me, what now?

Well, then we will have to wait.

For other's sake.

[BipolarChemist]

Wow...

Umm. Im going with what I thought before. I reeeealllyyy hope this is right...

VOTE: Who

[BipolarChemist]

I'm sort of doubting it now...shit. That vote was scummy, Bro. But it's done now.

[BipolarChemist]

Aww you couldn't let me milk it a bit?

Anyways! GG town! That last day had me scared shitless.

Thank you Zoraster for hosting!

[BipolarChemist]

Three separate threads would be cool. Then Day 2, either open up the other threads and let everyone read or keep them closed and let them squabble.

[BipolarChemist]

Honestly, I just wanted to lynch Who. I got to accomplish that. I am so damn grateful.

[BipolarChemist]

But like no one would shoot first. If you shoot first, guaranteed death for you, I think.