Micro 448: Russian Roulette - GG

[Cyrus]

I'm here. Hi. I'm going to reread post 4 and take my time with it because I think I understand how the guns work, but I'd rather be sure.

Later today. Posting because I gotta.

[Cyrus]

Read post 4, think I've got it down. If all else fails I could just refer back to it.

Ebrim's pretty much right in terms of needing to throw shit at the wall and hope something sticks. However, blindly shooting for a few days is going to be kind of useless, because ika's said that the gun that kills won't be know to us. I assume then that the other two won't be known then, too. Not sure how he'll manage that but one should not underestimate the mod, ime.

I don't see how mollie's being unclear and I agree with her that we should be discussing and determining who should be shot, who the guns should be passed to, etc.

[Cyrus]

mollie seems townish and is suspicious of Nacho so I'd shoot there

I don't disagree about Mollie, but do you have any reasons of your own for thinking Nacho is scum?

Short posts that don't say much plus someone that knows him well saying he's scummy. That's about as good as it's gonna get right now. Cyrus and Grib haven't said much either. Tere I don't know. The rest I wouldn't shoot right now.

I tend to be quiet in the beginning of games.

Mollie is townish. So is Elbrim. I'm still thinking about Tere not even mentioning Mollie's suggestion of talking it through before pulling, although that seems to me to be more eager town than a scum move.

[Cyrus]

I don't mind that move.

I'll pull on myself, but I'd like input as to who/if I should hurt someone and who I should pass it to.

Pedit: Not in my posts yet. Starting to think ika doesn't like me

[Cyrus]

Well that was unpleasant.

[Cyrus]

Pull, hurt guile, pass to Elbrim like SW wanted?

[Cyrus]

Maybe that wasn't as unpleasant as I thought. :p

[Cyrus]

I'd like to know where guile's scumreads come from, too. How exactly is wanting discussion scummy? If you're talking about me sheeping SW, I threw that out there as a suggestion, nothing more. Right now it looks like an OMGUS read to me.

[Cyrus]

I should clarify that I don't find omgus'ing to be suspicious. I do that all the time. But if you're seriously going to scumread someone, please back it up so they have a chance at rebuttal.

[Cyrus]

I had no way of knowing you don't normally post that day, and SW and Nacho both said they wanted you dead for lurking... and they were both town, so I fail to see where that's a scumread. Furthermore, Mollie's said that lurkers should be eliminated right away, yet you're townreading her. So which is it? Is wanting you dead for lurking a scumread or not, because it's been demonstrated that two people who are town desired the same thing. Still feel it's an OMGUS read.

Elbrin is town. Tere is probably town. I think her pulling without much discussion was eager town, not scum. And she did have discussion, with Elbrin, the person she pulled on.

[Cyrus]

Hooold on. You're scumreading flames for effectively lurking (not participating in the game itself, only talking to ika and trying to figure out the specs of the game).

You're not being clear as to whether or not people wanting to take out lurkers is scummy or not, because like as not, you had one post where everyone else was participating by that point and you'd given absolutely no indication that you'd not be posting again for the rest of the day. Assuming you were lurking is not a stretch.

[Cyrus]

Augh... last post for now, I swear. I'm sorry, Elbirn, I will spell your name right eventually.

And then I will delibetly make it wrong

[Cyrus]

I'm town reading mollie for some other reason, and it has to do mostly because I have played with her plenty of times. SW and Nacho, and mollie for that matter should know better as they know, or should know my posting habits.

I am not scum reading Flames for lurking. I normally don't care for lurking. I understand when players can't post or even those that choose not to post as a strategy. What I do care is for content. Compare the posts of SW, Elrbin, Mollie and even yours, with those of Flames. Basically his best post is the one after I shot him. Everything else is just fluff. Do you disagree?

You're not being clear as to whether or not people wanting to take out lurkers is scummy or not, because like as not, you had one post where everyone else was participating by that point and you'd given absolutely no indication that you'd not be posting again for the rest of the day. Assuming you were lurking is not a stretch.

To be clear. Taking out lurkers is not in itself scummy. But it is a very good place for scum to hide in and have an excuse to shoot. Also, take note that I found Flames scummier than you or Tere for that.

Yes, I do disagree. The mechanics of the game aren't just fluff, they're crucial to being able to play the game. I saw one post in his iso that I'd consider pure fluff. The last post he made was valid, as are the posts he made trying to figure out how to play the game. That's how I see it at least.

[Cyrus]

My strongest townread is Mollie. I'm a little unsure if I can pass it to her or not, but if I can, anyone have any objections?

[Cyrus]

I just read back. You still have a gun, it seems.

Crap. I dunno who to give my gun to. I would've said SW but she died. Phooey.

[Cyrus]

Bah.

Sorry, Grib. I'm stealing Elbirn.

pull
Pass to Elbirn

[Cyrus]

Why's Elbirn leaning scum for you?

[Cyrus]

I did give a reason for town reading Tere, though. At least twice. As for you, you're active and making arguments that seem townish to me (eg. Reasons not to shoot guile even though he's lurking).

[Cyrus]

Also, you implied that I'm buddying you. How? The only thing I can think of is passing the gun to you. You're a townread and you asked for a gun.

[Cyrus]

That was amusing.

So ika, I've got a question I don't think has been asked yet (although I didn't reread the first posts so I may get mocked for this)... How long do players stay knocked out?

1 round. So this round guile can not recive a gun. After the guns get passed, he will be back

[Cyrus]

Oh, I think I get the knocking out. I think?

no dont do "i think" the last thing i need is another mollie running around going "WTF AM I DOING"

[Cyrus]

Phone posting right now, but all I have for scum is PoE: Flames, Grib, and Guile- and it's way too early for PoE. I'll have a reread when I'm off the phone and see if I can give a better answer than that.

[Cyrus]

I... just deleted my post. Fuck my life.

tl;dr version: My reads on Mollie and Tere remain town, Grib's iso is a wasteland, Guile's got a dearth of posts but at least they're quality posts but there's one hinky part, Flames' iso isn't too great as most of it is role-neutral posts, and I'm really second-guessing my town read on Elbirn. Like,

a lot

.

I'm going to go lick my wounds and try that post again later. Hmph.

[Cyrus]

Okay, now that I'm not seething over losing that post anymore... this isn't going to be nearly as eloquent as it should be.

I want to get Elbirn's down because that's the bigger one. I'll get to Guile tomorrow. It's short.

So Elbirn... A lot of what I have are inconsistencies that have me WIFOM'ing you something fierce. Post 70 has you wanting to fire willy-nilly. Okay, fine, but 124 has you wanting discussion. Could just be that you either saw that firing for a few days wasn't a great idea, that discussion is better, or that you could see that you weren't getting the play you wanted.

If this was the only inconsistency, I'd overlook it and chalk it up to one of the three options I listed above, all of which are role-neutral at worst. But then in 129 you like me and Tere for being conservative and in 164 you're scumreading me for, to the best of my ability to discern, not giving a reason why I'm town-reading you. Why jump right to being scum? Why not ask me why I didn't give a reason (I simply didn't think to) and then decide if you believed me or not? That looked mighty like throwing shit at the wall and hoping it would stick, except I can see both scum and town doing that. You said that you're paranoid about scum townreading you; that's the town!Elbirn. Scum!Elbirn hopes that other players will jump on that and I'll start to trip up.

What really rubs me the wrong way is your exchange with Flames about scum having more information. I need to go back and get all of the post numbers, but when Flames accuses you of knowing which gun is which, you proclaim that nothing in the setup says anything about scum having extra info and, and this seems to be that you're trying to accuse him of scumslipping. But when he points out that the set up does include scum and 3p having more information, you never respond. Now, this is something that I'm WIFOM both of you over: Was scum!Flames trying to issue a challenge that you have no way of answering other than "No, I'm not scum"? Did town!Elbirn just forget/didn't see that bit in there, or did scum!Elbirn forget or miss it and was hoping to get something started on Flames that way?

Those two inconsistencies along with the exchange about scum/3p having extra information is really making me look askance at you. It's all WIFOM but it's there.

[Cyrus]

Of course, Elbirn. The whole argument is so full of wine that I'm surprised you didn't get drunk reading it. It's what I noted, though. I'm still trying to figure it out too, but it can't hurt to put it out there.

I'll reread Flame's push on Guile in a bit before I post the hinky part I saw.

[Cyrus]

@Guile: regarding your scumread on me. You still haven't addressed my rebuttal that

you never said in post 36 that you didn't normally post on that day

. How exactly were we supposed to know that you normally don't post and weren't lurking? This is not rhetorical and is the hinky part of your posts that I was talking about. Keep repeating that you found it scummy and I'll keep repeating that you never said that you normally don't post that day.

As for Grib, I meant what I said. His ISO is a wasteland. He's said that he's going to be posting (I will find the post if you want) so I want to give him a chance. Right now I don't like his lurking.

[Cyrus]

Well, I was wrong about that. I could've sworn he did. Wonder who it was.

His last post was five days ago. Yeah, that's bad.

I'm willing to shoot at him if there's consensus.

[Cyrus]

I thought it was pretty clear they wanted you dead for not posting. I agreed with them. I forgot you were in the game, too. Everyone else except Grib was posting something by the time SW and nacho wanted you dead. They're obviously not scum, so your premise that the reason Tere and I wanted you dead is because we're scum is very, very obviously flawed. I believe Mollie did too, and you're townreading her. I'll get confirmation of that in a bit, but there's also the issue that you

said

that the fact that you don't post on that day therefore you were not lurking was part of the reason you're scumreading me and Tere.

Follow-up post coming.

[Cyrus]

I'd shoot the shit out of guille. In fact, once I attempt to kill myself a couple more times, I will be shooting at guille.

personally I trust nacho's read on him.

Mollie agreeing with a scumread on you. Her reset on her read on you came

after

your second post in the game, and I believe Nacho's read on you came before that post. My interpretation of this is that she also wanted you dead after just one post, yet you have

never

looked at her with the same tunnel that you're dealing with me. And Tere. And Flames, because there was no debate from you when I said I disagreed with you,

and

the first time I called you out on this:

I'd like to know where guile's scumreads come from, too. How exactly is wanting discussion scummy? If you're talking about me sheeping SW, I threw that out there as a suggestion, nothing more. Right now it looks like an OMGUS read to me.

SW said, lets Kill Guille for lurking. You said, "I don't mind that move." and "Pull, hurt guile, pass to Elbrim like SW wanted?".

Considering that Not posting for a day on a day I normally don't post is not really lurking. So, I'm suspicious of people who don't see that as a problem.

What's your read on Elbrin and Tere?

... you changed the subject to Flames, rather than reply to the fact that you stated that you were scumreading me for scumreading you on a day you don't post. That is literally what you said.

Which is the story? Did you scumread me because you didn't post on a day you normally don't post and I called it lurking, or did you scumread me for scumreading you after just one post?

And why

did

you change the subject to Flames, anyway?

[Cyrus]

I really didn't feel like going post by post on you. So, I responded in general.

Fine, Ok, so you question my take on Grib and Cyrus/Tere. I answered the grib one above. As for the other two? well, I am/was suspicious Now, not so much depending on how they play through the days. Still, I don't see what 36 is any reason to want me dead, and there is no indication from Cyrus and Tere that post 36 was their motivations like you mention. They were fine in killing someone

that wasn't available to respond

or hasn't really said anything in the game, and I found that Scummy. Would have thought that regardless of who the target was.

Addressing this specifically: Here you say again that you are (or were) scumreading us because you weren't available to respond. "Hasn't said anything in the game" applies to Grib. He's got what, five posts? At least one of which is trolly and the others not even pretending to add anything to the game.

I do want to make it clear that I'm pressuring you because I find the inconsistencies I'm reading as suspicious, not because you were scumreading me.

[Cyrus]

That said, I don't think we've got time to wait on Grib to respond to the prod.

A sidenote: Flames, I totally agree with you that Guile's suspicious as hell. But I think Guile's scumread on Grib came after I said I was willing to shoot him. My previous read on him was PoE and I discounted it because I thought it was too early to use PoE. I don't think that point's quite entirely fair.

[Cyrus]

GAH.

Pull

HURT: Grib

Pass

... Mollie? If I can? If not just pick someone for me, ika. Or have SW pick for me.

[Cyrus]

Except 1) I've demonstrated that not knowing you didn't post that day was part of why those scumreads came about, and 2) shooting at someone in this game is obviously not the equivalent of a hammer and it's a bit disingenuous for you to try to make that comparison.

[Cyrus]

If shooting were the equivalent of a hammer this game would've been over days ago.

[Cyrus]

1) You're calling it small part of your argument when it was the only stated argument at first, your only other argument her argument was tacked on after I pointed out that no one could've known your first, and now you're attempting to distance yourself completely from it. It's half of your argument at the least, and I find it incredible that you're attempting to convince me that the latter was your intended argument all along when it wasn't mentioned at all when you first posted your scumreads.

2) So then all of the pulling on ourselves are intended self-hammers then?

[Cyrus]

I'm taking a break. I'm actually getting really angry about this and no one needs to see me lose my temper.

[Cyrus]

First, I apologize if I got unsportsmanlike.

I'm not going to address this debate anymore. We're saying the same things over and again and it's getting us nowhere.

[Cyrus]

Thanks for your candor, Guile. I admit that it devolved into a "I'm right you're wrong so there" thing on my end.

Have narwhals for your troubles.



So, Grib, glad to have you back! What do you think of everything that's gone on? Got any reads on anyone?

[Cyrus]

Okie dokie then.

[Cyrus]

Hey, Grib. Got any thoughts on the game state or any reads?

[Cyrus]

I do. I didn't think to use it before I passed the gun. Next time I get one I'll remember.

[Cyrus]

HURT: Grib

pass to Elbirn

[Cyrus]

Well well well. I regret not following through on my pressure on him now.

[Cyrus]

Once you've used all your hurts, you get no more, right?

Pull

I agree Flames is most likely not scum.

I wonder if the third party could be a survivor, given the setup of the game. Ika did say that the game continued until there was only one player, IIRC.

[Cyrus]

Hey, what about me?

From my count, Mollie's town and Flames is probably town. That leaves me with Tere, Grib, and Elbirn as possible scum/3p. Out of those three, Tere is the only read I haven't second-guessed.

At this point I think it's only those three who still have hurts. I may be remembering wrong.

[Cyrus]

Eh.

pull, pass to grib

Going on... Tere's logic that eventually he'll have to start pulling on himself.

[Cyrus]

Does guns being reloaded mean that we all have hurts again?!

[Cyrus]

Sweet.

Taking a moment to reevaluate. Mollie came as a shock to me so I'm rereading from page 1.

[Cyrus]

Rather than take it from the top I'm looking at interactions with Guile.

In 257 he takes back his read of Elbirn as the third party:

Scum is within (Flames, Tere/Cyrus) and third Party (Tere/Cyrus, Grib/Elbrin)

For that matter, all of us who are still alive were in his "game solved" post, so he was trying to bus one of us here.

But here in 258 he likes Elbirn's entire 245 which was mostly a debunking of my thoughts on Elbirn up until that point and saying that he likes Flames' push on Guile.

266 says that his "game solved" 3p portion wasn't serious since he put "everyone" into it. Tere and I were already in the scum section. That leaves Grib and Elbirn as the "not serious" reads.

267 he says that he hasn't responded to one of Flames' posts because he's waiting on Elbirn. At this point I need to do an interactions from Elbirn's side because I can see this behavior as both buddying town and giving deference to a scum partner, but I don't think Guile would've been that obvious if he was giving deference to scum!Elbirn. He's all but ignored Grib other than to say that Grib's done nothing in the game, which is true. If Grib's scum, I can imagine that Guile wouldn't be too happy with him. I'm not sure at this point.

Then there's his back and forth with me about his argument inconsistencies.

Finally, in posts 355 and 357 he calls Tere on giving the gun to Grib. He's also practically ignored Tere, but I think it's notable that he said his scum reads were serious and Tere was listed as a scum read.

I'm going to do a post on Elbirn to Guile later. I'm not going to find anything in Grib's ISO and I really feel like Tere being listed as a scumread when he said that his 3p reads weren't serious is significant.

Feel free to give feedback. I wanna know what you guys think. Especially Elbirn. Do you think I missed something in this interaction read?

[Cyrus]

Ah, fml. Sorry about the bad code. Also, I think those post numbers are right, but I do know that they're somewhere around there if they're not.

[Cyrus]

One last thought: I don't think Elbirn would be this confused if he were scum, since scum have more information than town. He could be acting, but I'm leaning on believing it to be genuine.

[Cyrus]

You know what? I lied. He said that Grib wasn't a serious read, then harps on him posting nothing worth noting, and finally targets Flames - a townie with only one other person defending him, iirc - an easy push.

Unless someone wants me to do that interactions read from Elbirn's side, I honestly feel that it's more likely that Grib is scum.

I'll wait a few hours before making my shot to get feedback.

[Cyrus]

Elbirn, is there anything else you could point at for Tere being scum?

My logic with that post was that his reads for scum were serious, but he said that his reads for 3p were not, hence giving him wiggle room to avoid coming down solidly on you or grib, since Tere, Flames, and I were the ones he had pegged for scum; am I making any sense? I'm not sure how to better explain it.

[Cyrus]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. I misused the term when I called it a bussing, I think. Sorry.

[Cyrus]

Happy scumday Grib!

Ika, can you prod Tere?

I'll use my shot on Grib by noon if no one gives me a good reason not to.

[Cyrus]

As promised... Sorry to do this on your scumday, Grib.

HURT: Grib

[Cyrus]

Oh, don't be like that. sadface.

[Cyrus]

Oh. Okay.

pass to tere

[Cyrus]

I don't think I have any hurts, no. Go ahead and pass to Grib.

[Cyrus]

Game needs more trolling. Some dead person be an agent of chaos pls

[Cyrus]

That's a pretty drawing, SW.

[Cyrus]

I'm not sure who's scum now. I'll look at Tere closer; Grib's recent posts are really townish.

Off topic I find it hilarious that people have been shooting at Grib all game and he's in endgame.

[Cyrus]

Yes you are.

[Cyrus]

NO U.

I should probably look at Tere since I'm online. Heh.

[Cyrus]

Town will never be silenced.

Also yeah I'm just gonna keep posting and stuff.

In a scum!Tere world, 122 looks an unnecessarily verbose defense of her buddy.

Just wanted to address this before I did my iso:

Do you really think that was verbose? I mean, Elbirn said basically the same thing a few posts later (that it was too early to start policy shooting lurkers).

I dunno. I'm going to read Tere over but I'm not going to for you, because there's almost nothing in your ISO that would be helpful to determining your alignment. It almost feels like you were disinterested scum who's realized he's got a shot at winning. There's town motivation for your recent posts, though, too- if the wrong one of us is shot, town loses, so it's in town's best interest that you start participating now.

Those're my thoughts on you, Grib. Time to look at Tere.

[Cyrus]

Oh, here's a thing.

In 105 Tere says that shooting at Guile isn't a bad idea and will "wake him up". Compare to her post 122 which Grib has already pointed out, in which she says she doesn't like policy shooting lurkers.

I'm curious as to why that shift in thinking happened.

Pedit: I've also thought that, Elbirn, but I don't think I want to discuss that out loud because I don't want you to lose posting privileges. You're too cool for that to happen.

[Cyrus]

I feel it's just fair to bring up Elbirn's bad feelings about Tere wanting to bleed out Grib's resources, even if I disagreed with him on that point.

That's all I have on Tere. As has been said, it's... very unlikely any of us are going to kill right now. I'd still rather target who I think is scum. I need to think about it.

[Cyrus]

also just so everyone knows.

mafia wins in 1v1

So yeah, the game does end if town is shot.

[Cyrus]

Dammit. :p

[Cyrus]

What if I just shot someone without even knowing how the guns work.

What if.

Grib planning on shooting at random, without even knowing the mechanics, with no stated intent to pull on himself either.

Wasting your only scum hunting tool (hurt uses) makes no sense for a Town. But scum wouldn't really need to scum hunt now would they?

What if I just shot someone without even knowing how the guns work.

What if.

Works for me!

I know Elbirn was mostly joking, but. Comparison!

I think I get what you're saying here but I'd rather be sure. What you're pointing out is that Elbirn didn't like that you were going to shoot at random while Tere was fine with it. Am I right?

[Cyrus]

I'm probably taking it more seriously than I should for reasons.

[Cyrus]

I'm still thinking. :p

[Cyrus]

Eh.

HURT: Grib

I'm sticking with my read of you.

[Cyrus]

I was wrong and no one was surprised. Good game, Tere.

[Cyrus]

And Guile, of course.

[Cyrus]

And ika. I'm just going to sit in the micro queue and wait for you to post another game.

[Cyrus]

Yep. I should've listened to my gut on this one. Not that it would have mattered by that point, but still.

[Cyrus]

*hangs head*

[Cyrus]

I want a spot! /pre-in pre-in pre-iiiiiiinnnnnn