512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

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hi guys!

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how about we stop creating single vote wagons that lead nowhere and you guys sheep me on ETL instead?

Why should I?

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A truism.

p-edit maybe even two truisms.

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I think wingback might be town. also maybe Firebringer. maybe.

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I think wingback might be town. also maybe Firebringer. maybe.

I think Firebringer is likely town if I'm interpreting his posts correctly. If your reason is anywhere close to mine, you should also see why I have a problem with Kaboose's rolefishing accusation.

In general, how likely is it for mods on this forum to provide safe fake-claims in themed games? I've seen a lot of variation across various forums.

In general quite likely, thoughit does vary by moderator. I've played a few AP games, but have never drawn scum so I can't say for sure. IIRC ETL has been scum in one of his games. She could say pretty definitively.

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Firebringer, how many themed games have you completed?

I'm feeling ETL's overreaction to Wisdom scummy. Initially found it town, but the way he continued with it doesn't seem genuine IMO

-Bearbert head

have you played with ETL before?

does your other head have an opinion?

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I think wingback might be town. also maybe Firebringer. maybe.

I think Firebringer is likely town if I'm interpreting his posts correctly. If your reason is anywhere close to mine, you should also see why I have a problem with Kaboose's rolefishing accusation.

In general, how likely is it for mods on this forum to provide safe fake-claims in themed games? I've seen a lot of variation across various forums.

In general quite likely, thoughit does vary by moderator. I've played a few AP games, but have never drawn scum so I can't say for sure. IIRC ETL has been scum in one of his games. She could say pretty definitively.

You made no comment on the other part of my post. Was that intentional?

To some extent. I don't want to walk through your line of inquiry regarding kaboose. But I"m also not sure I follow you re Kaboose at all.

[sekai no ki]

Wisdom seems off to me from other games we've played together.

VOTE: Wisdom

i like this vote, others do this

Off in what ways?

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@ Sekai, explain your townread on Firebringer.

I thought he was softing something. had no idea what it might be. The reason I said it was a maybe town read rather than a town read was because it felt a little overdone/look at me, and because there were no obvious town-minded inquiry/reactions going with it.

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Kaboose you haven't explained what looks off from your other games with Wisdom.

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i actually have a pretty huge problem with Wisdom's posts. i don't like that he never elaborated on his reasoning for voting etl anywhere, and i don't like that, once he *did* start scum reading kaboose and elaborated on the reasoning for it, he didn't do anything to push it. i think his push on etl looks like scum making a "push" on someone in order to appear like they had something to do early game.

i don't like metal sonic either. i think asking titus to replace into the game is more likely to be coming from him as scum than him as town because of how successful they generally are as scum and how much he enjoys spam posting as scum (they spent the majority of their recent scum game, we the purple, deliberately making a bunch of spam posts and shitting up the thread and i think he would really be looking forward to doing the same thing with her again).

i agree on wingback-town and, while i think the case on kaboose is mostly misguided (especially now that we know there's multiple people who appeared on a 90's show in the series), the point about him not asking any probing questions to follow up on it is a good one

etl might also be town

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i don't intend it to be rude, just i think it's something you'd be likely to do as scum and i don't understand why you would have waited until the game started to ask her

what's the reasoning behind your wisdom vote?

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MS. just stop.

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holy jesus fuck, calm down.

1. i don't have any problem with your explanation. i didn't mean it to offend you and i apologize if i did

2. that said, it does not in any way make you "obvtown". you are likely telling the truth about this regardless of what your alignment actually is.

so, moving on:

my gut feel is that wisdom could be scum. 70% RVS, 20% "friendly gesture", 10% scumhunting

i am looking for specific reasoning. which of wisdom's posts did you have a problem with?

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what the fuck is this bullshit

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this makes me sad for two reasons

in addition to the obvious one, i wanted to troll the fuck out of sthar after i saw that he didn't know who i was

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(also it took forever for ffery/me to even find a game to hydra in; if this gets reset, god knows how long it'll take to find another one <_>)

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I thought the who's online link had been removed a couple years ago, along with the list of users reading a forum.

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sigh sounds about right.

So sthar8, how do you come by your scum read of us?

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ok. How do you feel about him now?

I don't know. Kinda cautiously nullish. On the one hand, he's called a lot of attention to himself. On the other hand, he's pointed up a game where he fake claimed as scum and rode it to a win. I haven't looked at the game yet to see if he did some early fake-softing, but it seems pretty braggadocio for a scum player to both reuse something like that shortly after in another game and call attention to the fact it was a successful scum tactic.

I'm going to go through your reasons for voting him more closely and see what I think

[sekai no ki]

We are No Lynching.

Stop trying to ruin Towns chances of winning nub.

I don't know who you are, but I hope you realize how fucking dumb this post sounds. You didn't even bother reading my posts or responding to them.

I read your post and disagree with it.

We don't need any more info going into the night.

We just got a flip, lynching another possible townie right now only further hurts towns chances of winning.

I do not want a lynch on day 1. We had a technical mislynch happen (It wasn't a mislynch but has same effect)

You sound more anti town then me.

where do you think you have sounded anti-town?

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firebringer, what does wisdom's flip tell you about other players?

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VOTE: firebringer

You are no longer welcome here.

Would like to see some reasoning for this.

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The jump on Sonic was a huge stretch. Kinda seemed like you might be looking for evidence to scumread him, rather than scumreading him based on the evidence.

That was pie's post based on pie's very recent experience as a mod with that scum team (I think. It was 1 am or something when we talked. Maybe it was a game she played with MS. We discussed one of those too.)

I'll point this post up for her when she's around again.

[sekai no ki]

Pie and I in agreement to do this, so we're going to role claim.

We are also a seeking neighborizer. We figure that Wisdom was the player we were supposed to seek.

[sekai no ki]

Why are you seeking neighborizor?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Flavor-why?

i actually have a pretty huge problem with Wisdom's posts.

Then why did you never vote him?

etl might also be town

Is this an independent read or a corollary to your Wisdom scumread

These are pie's posts. Would you like me to try to answer them or would you like to wait for her to answer?

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Interesting claim. And the way it was done is quite natural. The reveal makes sense. But it looks like an evil role to me personally(without full knowledge of what the role actually does. I'd like some description of what it does if it isn't a problem). But why do I think it seems evil role even though I'm not aware of what it does? Because I presume it's linked with Wisdom's role and I can totally see one evil and one innocent linked in this way.

-Bearbert head

It's a town role.

I just finished a micro game that had 3 neighborhoods of 3 players each. When I saw Wisdom's flip I wondered if this game was going to have a whole bunch of neighborizers.

The way our role works is that we don't know the player name or flavor name of whoever it is we're seeking. So basically we would randomly pick a different player each night and let AP know we'll try to neigborize them.

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kaboose, your play so far is giving me scum vibes. You're being cagey, you have to be asked multiple times before you reply to stuff.

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The jump on Sonic was a huge stretch. Kinda seemed like you might be looking for evidence to scumread him, rather than scumreading him based on the evidence.

how much do you know about how ms plays/thinks as scum vs. town? i think your assessment of his play is severely incorrect if you don't think he enjoys spam posting or that making a bunch of spam posts is something he often does as scum - this is even more so the case when he literally just got out of a game where he and titus (in-hydra) rolled scum and did that exact thing.

there is also that i partially just wanted to warn everyone in advance that if he started posting a bunch of nonsense posts he was likely scum because i don't feel like dealing with that shit

that said, i no longer think it's a thing now that he clarified he had asked her pregame. what do you make of him claiming it made him "obvtown" when he'd probably be honest about it even if he was scum here?

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Would like to see some reasoning for this.

agree with this; it felt like a "vote a townie and hope no one notices i don't actually have any reasoning for it" vote

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Then why did you never vote him?

i didn't feel like it

/shrug

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I just completed a game with town-firebringer. the micro with 5 billion neighborhoods. he's posting a lot more in this game, and he's posting trollish looking stuff especially the last page or so.

My impression from that game is that his mafia experience (which is not all on ms) has been in an environment with a very different sort of site meta from MS.

Mine. :/

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i think firebringer suggesting a no lynch is incredibly dumb, but he's probably town. it reads like he thought something along the lines of "no lynch is the theoretically correct play today" (even though it's not, in part for reasons pointed out already) and thinks anyone who disagrees with it has to be bad at the game for not agreeing with it. i really do not think he would have thought to fake it or approach it in this way as scum, and if he did, i think it would have came off more awkward than it did here.

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Question to everyone:

What person lynched rightn. Ow would give us the most info?

And why?


I still don't want a lynch today but I would like to hear peoples thoughts

We treat this day like any other. We poke, we squint, we ask questions, we throw out theories, we vote and we watch votes. We do the stuff that generates reads.

Asking who people want to lynch right this minute gives information, but not information about who will/may be the eventual lynch.

To me, lynch-based info is a distant second. My goal is always to lynch scum.

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I hate your gambits, MS.

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These are pie's posts. Would you like me to try to answer them or would you like to wait for her to answer?

Either way works but neither of you answered my first question re: ETL. Also, if it is an independent read, I'd like your reasoning for it.

I've gone back to look for an earlier question about ETL than this, but can't find it. What post was it in?

This is Pie's reasoning:

The read is based on ETL's 29. She came right out and tried to level with Wisdom, and pie feels that's more town than not. She thinks that scum are more likely in this kind of situation to let the person they have issue with post naturally and complain about it later. This allows the scum player an easy way to generate content/fake indignation throughout the game. the other benefit scum have to delay reaction a little and let the interaction heat up that it allows them to pretty thoroughly discredit a town player.

For myself:

ETL is not a player that I read quickly. Given we've both been playing games on site since 2013, we've had relatively few games together. I had a slight town read of ETL in part because I thought her reaction to Wisdom looked town, but also because I was concerned that Wisdom looked like he was pushing a baseless vote. I could see someone as town doing that if they thought ETL's reaction to a sudden and strong push would be alignment indicative and allow an easy and early read, but I didn't have reason to think Wisdom was doing something like that. In my experience, he latches on and tunnels like crazy unless and until he eventually shakes loose a reason to think the player is town. And in the process, he finds something scummy about every reply and stance the player takes.

I'm aware he's been working to change his play style. his push on ETL didn't look like a change for the better.

[sekai no ki]

We're kinda liking Polar Vortex for town.

mine

[sekai no ki]

sekai no ki I am not townreading

I'm kinda deferring to pieguy on you, but I'm inclined to consider you not townreading town-me after our last few games as something resembling a scum claim from you.

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I really don't like MS' last few pages.

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I really don't like how you're not my top townread.

You're playing rhetorical games rather than scumhunting.

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I see noise about us being disengaged. I will catch up and post tonight.

If I were going to vote atm I'd probably vote Kaboose, but I have some misgivings. it bothers me a little that this wagon doesn't have much resistance. I've toyed with the idea of a kaboose/ms team, but I think ms would be more emphatic about it if he were bussing a scumbuddy.

I need to go back and look at his play in the team mafia nightless game.

I don't know about pie, but I did become disengaged. It was at the point where Wisdom explained why he was pushing etl. I thought the game was probably broken and I was pissed off. Since then, there's nothing really preventing my re-engagement except time. Which I will make tonight.

I feel like there is probably some decent data in the reactions/non-reactions of other players to that push and I want to sift through those pages again.

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the other one is all badlogic that can be explained by being familiar with a different meta, and antagonism that can be explained by a massive ego. i'll look at whoever's case, but i'm not feeling it rn.

I don't know if I made the post but I meant to make a post touching on the different site meta issue with firebringer.

he wasn't as trolly in the game I just finished with him. I replaced in on day 1 with 4 calendars remaining to nightfall. The different site meta thing was very apparent there. he was all about lynching liars, and people gambiting was anathema to him.

Anyway, he worked through the issues with people lying and gambiting and voted correctly in mylo two consecutive days.

Game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62627

There are some significant differences in his play here. I mentioned the trollyness. The other aspect is that he's picked up more scumreads here than he did on day 1 of that game (or at any point during the game). he was convinced he was confirmed town by day 3 simply because he wasn't involved in the gambit that 3 players played. I feel like his outrage at being scumread here comes from a similar mindset.

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Yeah that's a different manifestation of the site meta difference, but his play there was very much influenced by stuff you either don't learn here or you get it beaten out of you after a couple games.

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I was hoping MS and I would have a substantive engagement that I could make a better read from, but didn't want to distract from etl's line of questioning.

Mostly I'm sitting here with a dislike for his unpressured day 1 role claim, regardless of his alignment. he's trying to draw the services of a protective role or at least raise the possibility in everyone's minds that he could be protected, which he'd do as any alignment.

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You'll have to wait for pie to fill that blank.

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I am filled with the joy and confidence that can only come from a town role PM. There's a blight, a gestalten concept of the game that was shattered, and I fear that the player I could neighborize is already dead.

[sekai no ki]

it did. It also happened in the game I linked to, though that was a calculable possibility due to the mechanics.

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I don't. Though the random numbers are generally pretty kind to me!

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also, that wasn't the gestalten concept that was shattered.

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no crumb. I'm talking about the reads and game-sense that was forming based on a game where wisdom had in-game reasons to either think etl was scum, or that she was worth pushing as a mislynch.

That game didn't happen. It was a mirage.

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it is now. It was the assumed reality until proven otherwise.

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I don't know about pie, but I did become disengaged. It was at the point where Wisdom explained why he was pushing etl. I thought the game was probably broken and I was pissed off. Since then, there's nothing really preventing my re-engagement except time. Which I will make tonight.

i'm catching up and i just saw this. i've been half busy offsite (moving sucks), half just not much free time in general. i'm probably just going to wind up posting a bunch of thoughts and i'll see where that takes me

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i'm mostly caught up. i disagree with just about everything kaboose is writing, but i think he's probably town. i liked the way the claim came out and i thought 389, among other posts, showed a depth of thought i think is indicative of town even though i don't agree with it.

i don't like any of metal sonic's posts re: etl, but i honestly have no idea if he's just scum or if it's him deliberately being obtuse and posting a bunch of shit because he knows i read him based on how he is scum hunting and apparently has set out to break that tell by deliberately being anti-town as town. i will say that if he keeps posting the way he has been i won't have any problem with lynching him and if he flips town i won't give a shit because i know he can do a lot better than that. i'm also going to say that he claimed earlier that what i said about him asking titus to join the game was "only a few levels above what mollie insulted him with"; what he was referring to here was mollie claiming he was deliberately attempting to play to his scum meta as town, SOOOO yeah. on the other hand, i thought his cop claim was more indicative of him as town and i kind of liked his reaction to ffery's partial claim.

i also didn't agree with etl's point that ms missing that there was only one vote on kaboose is indicative of him skimming the thread. a lot of time i make decisions based on what people's reads are in general as opposed to specifically how many votes people have. i'd like if she could walk me through it again because i kind of skimmed over a lot of it

i didn't like sthar's kaboose case. a lot of what he pointed out was really obvious, but i don't get the impression he was actually considering possibilities or analyzing motivation there - the first two points i think are (infuriatingly) more likely playstyle as opposed to anything alignment indicative. the third point i don't see how he gets "backpedaling" off of what kaboose actually said there and i don't see how it relates to being able to scum read someone via meta. in hindsight, i remember a lot of these types of posts in 13p normal (namely the scum case he made on egg based around thor/mala interactions where he pointed out a bunch of stuff that *looked* scummy but wasn't actually solid). i might be reading too much into it or biased here

i don't actually get what problem people are having with wingback's posts. i've liked a lot of the stuff he's posted.

[sekai no ki]

ffery is easier to read than you

fortunately i have expertise for both of you?

it is liberating to not be the head of the hydra everyone is relying on to read for a change

walk me through your sthar town read?

[sekai no ki]

pieguy on a scale of miyanaga teru to kuro matsumi, how town are you?

i'm nijou izumi

i think my posting is par for the course, but every time i try to get invested in the game i get cock blocked by all the third years whom i can't tell are scum or trolling

[sekai no ki]

ehhhh most of his stuff looked good at the time of the posting. considering the level of his scumplay, it is actually *fakeable*, but i won't subject him to that level of scrutiny until much later

specific posts?

[sekai no ki]

Reading back through the game with the idea that scum weren't sure what to make of Wisdom's etl push, except that Wisdom himself was town. I'm using my own reaction as a sort of yardstick: I thought that Wisdom might simply be trying to force a wagon on etl to get a readable reaction from her if he was town. I was curious what she might have done in her 2 page 1 posts that provoked such a strong scumread if that's what it was. I wondered if scum-Wisdom would do something like this to play to his tunnely town meta.

49

I don't really understand the fuss about 22. Seems fine and the same reaction I got from firebringer


-Bearbert head

polar vortex seems to ignore the page or so of back and forth between wisdom and etl at this point, to focus on Wingback's scumread of Kaboose. he says he doesn't see the reason for interpreting kaboose's post that way. Which is cool. But the elephant in the room is Wisdom's scumread of etl which had even less reason.

ETL's 51 gives me townfeels because she's so certain that she's done nothing to prompt more than an RVS vote. She's not wondering what she did to attract his attention. She's confident she's done nothing.

64 by polar vortex once again feels off. he's calling ETL scummy for her overreaction to Wisdom. It didn't feel like an overreaction to me at the time. My question at that point was still "If wisdom is town, what did he see or what is he trying to accomplish?" But, meta. I know ETL has strong negative reactions to players pushing her at times (thinking about an open game modded by Broseidon a while back where scum-notsci tunneled her and she eventually replaced out. My gif-hydra replaced in to her slot.). So maybe this point by polar vortex isn't so bad,.

I like firebringer's 72. 72 he's clearly evaluating both sides of the etl/wisdom argument, however effectively/not.

71 Wisdom asked polar vortex to vote ETL with him since Polar said her reaction to wisdom's push looked scummy. he declines:

wanna vote her?

Not especially, don't think wagoning her would give us more info. We've seen the reactions we need. More votes would mean more of the same.

Would rather wagon

VOTE: Firebringer

I like wingback's question in 76, trying to sort ETL's reason for voting Wisdom.

Aaaand polar vortex's post in 79 agreeing with Kaboose that a wisdom/etl scumteam makes sense because it pings as bussing. This stuff is bothering me more and more. he's scumreading etl but voting firebringer, even though he thinks the etl/wisdom stuff looks like bussing.

Then in 81 I *think* this is snowstorm. he states he thinks etl isn't scummy and is suspicious of Wisdom. If it's not snowstorm, it's an awesomely huge disconnect on the other head's part and I don't see how the same player could even say this 2 points down from the bussing comment.

The next stuff that hits the thread is the back and forth between wisdom and kaboose about kaboose's meta reasons for thinking wisdom could be scum. At the time, I thought this looked bad and was thinking we might vote him once pie and I synched. It still looks bad, though kinda fits kaboose's playstyle and apparent experience that he'd jump to different = scummy without thinking that the difference is from scum-Wisdom games he's played.

I like everything about Wingback's 91, catching the disconnect in polar vortex' stance, and also revealing that his reason for scumreading kaboose both makes a lot of sense and also on retrospect given his roleclaim points up why kaboose was scumreading firebringer.

98 by polar vortex makes some sense of the disconnects in scumread vs vote. The one ping here is that he's apparently using a post-hoc townread by snowstorm to justify his not wanting to vote ETL earlier for reactions.

Firebringer in 101 brings up a scum game he played and won. As an aside in that game, he fake-claimed and rode the claim to a win. As a further and less relevant aside, this was some of the basis for him scumreading the entire set of 3 players involved in the gambit in our earlier game. here, he'd have to expect the title character would be in the game. The only scum-motive I can see for how he kept referring to the flavor to a degree that Wingback thought it was a crumb and kaboose thought it was rolefishing is exactly that - to prompt a reaction from whoever had the role.

This is roughly the point in the game where MS asked about hydraing with titus. I like his reaction to pie scumreading him for it, though he's glossing over the fact that pirate mollie was right about his play in the earlier game.

I thought polar vortex's 120 pointing up it would be rude to post a private communication in the game seemed strange - like my concern was about outside influences at that point, not whether posting a screenshot of the pm would offend titus. I'm not sure it's a scummy reaction, though, and I'm starting to feel like I'm reading their posts with a bias. I had a mild townread on them before I started the reread with a focus on looking at off-feeling reactions to the etl/wisdom thing.

MS suspecting Wisdom in 126 feels pretty townish in light of Wisdom's flip. The whole problem with wisdom's push was that there wasn't an in-thread basis for his read that explained his certainty. I also like his vote on polar vortex given how I'm feeling about this reread.

Sthar8's post in 150 is surface-good. Things I worry about are how he assumes town v town in the ETL/Wisdom thing. a hypothetical scum-Sthar8 would have to townread etl I think if she's town, and would know that Wisdom is town. When this post hit the thread, I assumed stronger knowledge of both ETL and Wisdom than I have. Though my experience with both of them is middlin deep, we haven't played many games together given how long all three of us have been on site.

This is the point at which Wisdom lets us know the basis of the ETL read.

I want to go through this with particular care. Which will happen in about an hour and a half when I'm done with a PT appt.

[sekai no ki]

Okay I'm just going to say it because I will look stupid and probably suspicious pushing ETL like this if I don't. I should have replaced out, and I am sorry that I didn't, but too late now.

See this? I made it because I caught ETL reading and replying to a private topic since we started confirming for this game and onwards.

timestamps please

This seemed off at the time and it still feels off. My first thought when I saw wisdom's post was that the game was possibly broken.

In 164, he catches on and agrees with sthar8 that the game might he broken.

From here, the game pauses, waiting for AP to decide what to do.

I have a theory about the timestamps question. Will keep it to myself for now.

There's not a whole lot I want to say here beyond this. I'm trying to develop reads from reactions, but this event is pretty much off limits to us, and rightly so.

[sekai no ki]

let me reread everything so far.

i would probably be fine with no lynch but i don't know what we would get out of that except for saving us another day. we need information going into night.

be back in a minute

Why did you think you'd be ok with no lynch?

Metal Sonic's 212 and 213 one minute later bother me. he thought ETL needed to be modkilled (which suggests he thinks her alignment was made obvious to the point of confirmed, which suggests he knows her alignment) and then an immediate, within the minute reversal. Makes me wonder if he realized that from an uninformed pov her alignment isn't made obvious.

213 - I liked etl's quote stripe catch up. I liked the points she chose to follow up on.

The no lynch vs not argument annoys me as much this time around as it did originally.

firebringer, what does wisdom's flip tell you about other players?

Tells me Kaboose jumped from null to scum for me.

Why was this? Post 246 does not explain why he jumped to scum for you at that point.

271 is the closest thing to an explanation for his kaboose scumread that I've seen so far.

Are you just going to soft all the characters in the show?

Why is this suspicious by itself rather than just annoying?

This is mafia, everything is clue of someone's guilt or innocence.

I have seen people get lunched because of their spelling and grammar before.
We don't need to make sense!!!!

Stop questioning it!!!

This post feels at odds with his earlier post about getting enough info from Wisdom's flip to no lynch. If everything is a clue, why throw the rest of this game day away?

I like firebringer's 296. his demeanor this game is so different from our first game that it makes me worry, but this post is good pushback at MS.

MS's claim bugs me. I know he fake claims a lot as town and I hate it. This time, his exchanges that result in town reads feel shallow. I especially felt that way about his townreading me though it's further along in the thread.

ETL is town, don't waste the investigation on her

No, I'm not sure. Her play is still town. Still, there are lots of people who are blank spots. Who would be much better targets. Like really, the only reason for this is to avoid a policy lynch that we weren't doing in the first place. Her explanation is fine and natural to me

Who were the blank spots?

Overall I like the feel of these two posts.

And well, from Sonic's pov who would be a blank spot? Us or the other hydra(well, they are a blank spot for me at least). She's said we're suspicious with no explanation whatsoever.

Why would you eliminate all the other players from being blank spots? Do you have reads on the rest of the playerlist?

I had to go back and reread some of the exchange when I saw this, but I think wingback made a faulty assumption here.

I'm not bought by firebringer. Think the defence of him is "too bad to be scum" which is almost always bullshit imo.

What do you make of his reaction to Metal Sonic's claim?

It kinda looked like a non-reaction.

342 is another town-feeling post from polar vortex. The excitement about catching a scumslip paired with caution about the vote count.

The rhetorical tapdancing by MS in reply to etl that starts on page 15 annoys me and I want to scumread MS for it because his side of it is not about clearing the air and getting to a mutual understanding of what he meant in voting kaboose for comic effect. I'm not sure how much of the scumread is annoyance based. But, recently I've found that when MS annoys me, he's probably scum (the FF10 large theme game and the Team Mafia vanilla nightless game come to mind).

[sekai no ki]

Can you talk more about this? I have my own issues with Metal Sonic but I feel like a lot of your recent posts have been commentary without really involving yourself in it, seem cagey and away from the major arguments in the thread. Mostly I'd like the background between you and Metal Sonic that is resulting in the type of posting you are making towards each other.

MS makes a big deal about me being easier to read than my hydra partners and he's correctly townread me in several of my recent games, including a mini theme game where I had a terrible start and never really recovered. his comment to me about not having a townread reminded me of the Team Mafia vanilla nightless where found fault with Nachomamma8's supposed lack of towniness and told him I needed to enter the game and town it up or something. Nacho was bleeding town in that game, and scum-Metal Sonic really needed to get him lynched. I feel like he was thinking about attempting something similar here.

When we had an exchange a day or so later, talked about nothing pertaining to my reads, and he called me town after that really bothered me, especially since I was saying words that I wanted to feel, but didn't feel right then in that moment. There was no way I felt sincere enough about having joy in a town role PM to convince anyone. A town role PM is awesome, but it doesn't offset that this game has been marred by a modkill and littered with insults, and lots and lots and lots of people talking past each other, not answering questions, etc. This game is a slog. And MS is part of the reason why. And he's a decent enough player not to be intentionally adding to the slog unless it's to his advantage to do so.

[sekai no ki]

that's sweet and all but it doesn't address my concerns about your play.

[sekai no ki]

The last time I told you to pull up your socks you were scum.

I don't know.

I want to talk to pie.

[sekai no ki]

The time before that was Smite. Which was during/after the Whedon game.

[sekai no ki]

correct. and you were not town in FF10 or in the vanilla nightless (which felt like I was playing too because Nacho and I talked about both our games a lot, in real time). I"m comparing you here to those games as well as our most recent ones.

[sekai no ki]

<3

this is not a good thing.

if you keep playing like this, i will lynch you and you will have no right to say that "i can't read you anymore" because the only reason it happened was because you were deliberately playing anti-town as town. so, quit fucking around or get lynched

[sekai no ki]

pie posted 623.

[sekai no ki]

The rhetorical tapdancing by MS in reply to etl that starts on page 15 annoys me and I want to scumread MS for it because his side of it is not about clearing the air and getting to a mutual understanding of what he meant in voting kaboose for comic effect. I'm not sure how much of the scumread is annoyance based. But, recently I've found that when MS annoys me, he's probably scum (the FF10 large theme game and the Team Mafia vanilla nightless game come to mind).

this is precisely the problem i had with it. it felt like, rather than doing any *actual* engagement, he was just making shit up and being deliberately obtuse about it in order to misdirect. the only reason i don't want to lynch him over it is that possibility that he's just deliberately trolling

the scum read on wingstop for "not scumhunting" is another thing that bugs me. i know he is more than capable of actually explaining stuff like that in-depth rather than just giving a blanket analysis of it (see: the scum case he made on doduo in over the garden wall). the way he's going about it here feels more like a throwaway reason. i would also like to see if he has any more posts for reading sthar as town besides just that one post.

[sekai no ki]

also seriously? i can't believe you still can't tell when it's me posting on a hydra.

[sekai no ki]

another thing is that i think that, regardless of what ms's alignment is, it makes a lot of sense that etl reacted to it in the way that she did. under normal circumstances, there is no way those posts would have come from ms as town, and she was correct to call him on it

i also don't think the bit about pl'ing etl and then retracting it immediately was a slip. i think even if he is scum here, he could have just done it because he thought he would as town (with ms-scum etl-town, he should know it didn't actually compromise her slot either way).

[sekai no ki]

I also have stuff to say about Sekai and their two walls but I'd rather wait for them to finish catching up fully first. I do have another question for Sekai: what did you think my read on Wisdom was during the time he was in the game? You seem to be townreading me and didn't have an issue with my play around Wisdom's ETL push so I'm interested in hearing what you thought my read on Wisdom was and why.

It looked to me like you were in a similar place to where I was at re Wisdom. I had a null/maybescum read because I couldn't see what etl had done to drive the level of conviction he was displaying. At the same time he wasn't doing some of the stuff that I associate with how he tunnels. It was pretty confusing. I was torn between pushing for explanations and watching how the interaction played out. You seemed to be trying to develop a read of etl based on her reaction to his push while holding in abeyance the sorting of Wisdom.

[sekai no ki]

ratiocination. Not a word I see every day.

[sekai no ki]

Oh, sekai, when you made that 605 wall and you kind of attacked me a bit, what do you think of my response?

My main concern was the apparent disconnect between where your vote was and where it looked like your strongest scumreads were. I could tell part of it was due to being a hydra out of synch. Going through the later parts of the thread, I haven't noticed that kind of disconnect again, and I'm satisfied with your explanation posts. We were both townreading you before I started reviewing. That's still where we are at.

[sekai no ki]

You are confused.

My job is to lynch evil.

Nowhere does it say "make content".
If you think I am evil for not making that content w/e.
Evil can fake content as easily as I don't make it. It's not that hard to do.

I don't feel like it's important to put a lot of work for day one. I have explained why, so w/e

putting down content that makes your stances and motivations understandable and explainable is what keeps you from getting lynched, yourself. That is also part of your job.

[sekai no ki]

pie you should interact with me instead of berating me for responding to ETL

maybe I will give you more helpful answers


Ffery is talking to me. Why aren't you?

hint: me asking you to give more details on your sthar read was an invitation to interact more

[sekai no ki]

i'm looking for something akin to your doduo case from over the garden wall, or your mollie case from ori

one post without any reason doesn't really cut it :/

[sekai no ki]

can you walk me through your wingback read then?

Spoiler: i don't think i posted this one

[sekai no ki]

also i have to sleep in a few mins and will prob be busy all day tomorrow so i might not be able to look at it in detail until sometime then

p-edit: i kind of think he'd be able to fake it. in the team mafia game, he didn't seem to have any problem going out of his way to disagree with shit just for the sake of it - it also isn't difficult to be genuine about defending a town read when you're scum on a general level (which is something i've abused the fuck out of because no one seems to realize it). i like your explanation, though.

[sekai no ki]

i want to reread wingback when i get a chance to but i don't remember what i've read of his posts coming off in that way. i think when it's not 4 am i'll sit down and try to elaborate more in-depth on stuff from him that i liked

in the meantime, *if* for argument's sake the mod suddenly declared wingback was an innocent child, what town reads would you want to reevaluate?

Spoiler:

i don't actually know the song title. i just went and tried to find a bunch of mads in preparation for the achiga game and then i didn't get to use about half of them because the game ended so quickly. :< fwiw, someone posted in the comment the name was Infinite Orbit.

[sekai no ki]

ebwop

Spoiler:

i hope to fuck you don't get modkilled and/or banned for posting that >.> in either case, we should probably stop this now

[sekai no ki]

etl, how confident are you that sthar8 is town?

[sekai no ki]

I'm a little skeptical of your assertions that my scum and town games are so similar. You had no trouble at all discerning I was scum in the Arcadia game.

[sekai no ki]

Do you find pieguy to be equally difficult to sort?

[sekai no ki]

Ok. I'll see if she agrees you haven't played together often.

I was feeling like you haven't made much of an effort to question us. Looking at your iso, I see several questions and comments for us in the early game. They seemed more about understanding our reads and asking for more detail than about directly sorting us. And they fell off after you had that first go-round with MS.

We're null? how do you intend to sort us?

[sekai no ki]

pfferie are pinging me but I'm not sure why. Might be because y'all are such cute little bunnies and they've got teeth.

Probably has something to do with us being suspicious of you.

I agree with you about firebringer being low hanging fruit.

I don't think I've ever played with you before.

[sekai no ki]

pfferie are pinging me but I'm not sure why. Might be because y'all are such cute little bunnies and they've got teeth.

Probably has something to do with us being suspicious of you.

I agree with you about firebringer being low hanging fruit.

I don't think I've ever played with you before.

1. probably
2. good
3. like twice iirc. only in hydras.

What hydrae were those. I remember you were part of caskofamontillado in the Poe mini theme I modded.

[sekai no ki]

oooh catbug.

Yeah I'm half of sangres.

I'm still thinking that the bits of experiential meta I have aren't going to be all that useful.

[sekai no ki]

Yeah, Sonic

What do you think about his conversation with firebringer?

Who are you asking?

[sekai no ki]

Post 225 is the first obviously ffery post I've noticed. Having no experience with pieguy that I can recall, ffery is probably going to be my meter for the hydra. I like the "talking out loud". She said she was going to go through my reasons on Firebringer but I don't remember if she ever followed up on that.

258 is another ffery post. 259 as well. 260. Interesting note on the claim, I wonder if there's one town "seeking neighborizer" and one scum one. I can't imagine AP putting two of these in the same faction. With Wisdom's flip, honestly this makes me want to vote sekai right the fuck now.

I felt like it was for town to 1) know what Wisdom probably was mechanically, and 2) to know there was more than one. My first thought was that having two seeking neighbors looking for each other made the likelihood of this mechanic happening reasonable in a game that might only last 3 or 4 game days, but I'm not sure that's any more valid than having two seeking neighbors seeking non-neighbors to increase the likelihood of the mechanic firing.

284 another ffery post. (Am I right so far?) Meh.

317 is the first notion, that I recall, of MS lying about his claim.

Why did you instantly assume he was lying?

Based on your claim in 260, there's no reason you should have had, setup-wise, to suspect such a thing.

because I've seen him fake claim before. In fact he threatened to day-cop me in one of our recent games. In that one, he was a dayvig. Usually I see him fake claim as a way to pressure and reaction test another player and to try and focus a protective role on him. This time it looked pretty weak. I think he said he was going to cop you, but there are all sorts of reasons why that would be a way less threat than a daycop claim.

349 another ffery post. 355. This is.. yes. Ok. I don't remember if you agree that MS is pretty damn scummy today, but this is pretty much the same thing I have been saying. Same in 407. Agreed. Strongly.

We did. We're backing off that right now. I haven't talked to pie since our brief cross paths last night. That is one read we srsly need to kick around.

494 another ffery post. The waffle on kaboose rubbed me the wrong way.

Did you review his play in TM nightless?

Are you talking about metal sonic? I read most of that game in real time, even after Nacho was mislynched.

513 looks and sounds like another ffery post.

Why doesn't it bother you that Firebringer isn't screaming for MS's head for lying? Doesn't it seem too easy to "town read" a player who is townreading you and push those who are pushing you? If he's as idealistic/other-site-meta/newbie as you believe, why the disconnect on this here?

This is a major thing that needs investigating and no one is talking about it. You pointed it out and then let it go, saying you think FB is misguided town or something like that, low hanging fruit. I am saying, that's BS and there are more things here people are missing.

It does bother me a little but I'm coming off a game with town firebringer where town players fake claimed or backed up a fake claim that protected the scum player who was lying about a track result and faking a guilty track on another townie. It does seem easy to townread/not townread on the basis of players' reads of him. But, it's also something that newer players are particularly prone to. Kaboose was exhibiting the same behaviors IMO.

It was a micro full of neighborhoods. Anyway, we picked our way through that mess and managed to lynch scum at mylo twice.

I've been thinking about the differences between this game and the other micro we played, and why maybe he wasn't schooled to the same extent by other players finding his stances ridiculous. Part of it was the relative experience and relative assertiveness of the players. Part of it was probably having over half the player list in Europe. The real time interactions weren't a constant thing the way they have been here at times.

It looks like pie for a while, though 584 SOUNDS like ffery, I don't think it is. I like pieguy. I feel like the thoughts are easy to follow.

I think 605 is another ffery post. PBPA is something I'm always certain to find in a ffery-ISO. There's a lot of information in this post that I don't have the energy to really sift through at the moment. Tons of ideas I need to evaluate. I want to, but I don't want to. I'd like to check the rest of the ISO and if I can't grab a better feeling of their alignment after that I will come back to this post.

heh. In a recent game Tiershift FoSed me for pbpa because he'd never seen me do it before. It's not a tool I use in every game, but it's a pretty good tool for a catch-up/reread and doesn't aggravate players like Tammy who hate quotestripes.

610 is a ffery post.

What do you mean "it felt off"?

I don't understand that timestamps thing. Oh wait now I remember. You said something about me/MS as a team. What am I supposed to say to that other than "no you're wrong"?

That's not what the timestamp thing was about. I kinda thought it was a townish looking thing from MS once he said you and he were in PTs right now, though it squicked me that he was trying to pull out more data from Wisdom at that point.

611 another ffery post. Missed this question first go around. It was more of an "at the moment that is probably ok but let me read the thread and see if my mind has changed" statement. I needed to work out the benefits/losses of a no lynch before deciding if I really felt that was the right thing to do. After reading, I didn't feel like Wisdom's flip did anything for me, except make me angry at Wisdom. I wanted to get more out of the day, and felt that agreeing to a no lynch, at the time, would stagnate the game. If the threat of lynch was real, then reactions would be more real. At this point, I am fine with either because I've gotten more out of the day than I initially had.

That makes sense. It seemed to fall off the radar, which was why I asked.

ffery again in 613. I kind of like the comments about MS but the excessive use of "bothered" as a qualifier/justification is iffy, buuuut they are backed up with explanation, and I do like that a lot. There is a transparency here that I think would be, not difficult to fake, but difficult to maintain.

A bunch of pie posts followed by ffery in 631 (I think?) 643 is what I was referring to when I told MS that his shade-throwing at Polar was basically gross.

More pie then ffery from 743 onward.

ok so my basic conclusion is that sekai is probtown. a lot of the same ideas and thought processes are occurring there that I am following and agreeing with and having myself. Wingback is town for much of the same reason and this method of townhunting has often been a good marker. I like the hydra so much more after ISO.

I haven't gone back to check if you're correct about who posted what in every instance. I think pie and I are usually different in style enough that there won't be many misattributions.

[sekai no ki]

Sekai, I didn'r catch the thing about european players. Both of the heads of this hydra are European so if you're trying to imply this game lacks european players...

I meant time zones and how they played into when the game was active and for how long.

[sekai no ki]

11 players?

[sekai no ki]

anyway, firebringer at the very least MS has been misleading. I feel like you're bending over backwards to minimize that when if you're town you should be thinking about it squarely - what town benefit and what scum benefit could accrue from his actions.

[sekai no ki]

all the no u stuff is making this game tedious.

[sekai no ki]

I saw it. :smug:

[sekai no ki]

I don't think anyone should be expected to answer personal questions from a stranger on the internet. I'd be pretty creeped out, too.

[sekai no ki]

Sekai no Ki, Wingback, sthar8, why no vote?

you're only just asking us that?

I am starting to feel an urge to vote sometime this millennium. Will probably happen after our next synch.

[sekai no ki]

Sekai no Ki, Wingback, sthar8, why no vote?

you're only just asking us that?

What do you mean?

I mean we haven't put a vote down all game. The closest I came was to wanting vote kaboose over Wisdom's play being off from prior Wisdom-scum games. hydra synch hesitation.

[sekai no ki]

i didn't like sthar's kaboose case. a lot of what he pointed out was really obvious, but i don't get the impression he was actually considering possibilities or analyzing motivation there - the first two points i think are (infuriatingly) more likely playstyle as opposed to anything alignment indicative. the third point i don't see how he gets "backpedaling" off of what kaboose actually said there and i don't see how it relates to being able to scum read someone via meta. in hindsight, i remember a lot of these types of posts in 13p normal (namely the scum case he made on egg based around thor/mala interactions where he pointed out a bunch of stuff that *looked* scummy but wasn't actually solid). i might be reading too much into it or biased here

Sthar8's case echoed mine but it is a little different. I don't agree that it was scummy of him to post it. Looking over it in Post 501:

1. The "squicky opportunism part was pretty accurate. I had a similar problem with Kaboose which I mentioned earlier in Post 339 and Post 344.
   
2. I don't agree with Sthar that the defense by red herring was alignment indicative.
   
3. The third point about Wisdom was something that I mentioned earlier as well in my two posts that I linked. I think players tend to remember the alignments of others in previous games remarkably well. For instance, if I picked a random game of yours and asked you who the scumteam were, my guess is that you would recall accurately. Can you tell me who was the scumteam in Left 4 Dead without looking? It is something I noticed a while ago - it is very hard to forget who was scum. Granted, it doesn't apply to every player but if Kaboose was paying enough attention to Wisdom in those to notice behavioral tells, also forgetting that Wisdom was scum was unlikely. Anyways, I don't suspect Kaboose now. I just think he's a wierd anomaly. I'm more hoping to get a read on your motives and possibly Sthar8's. I'm not sure I'd have said Kaboose was backpedaling. I thought he was making stuff up by referring to Wisdom's meta and got caught on it.
   
4. Sthar8's case brought up similar points to mine. Why did you only have an issue with him and not me (was it just the meta-reference of Sthar pushing cases like this in the past as scum)?

It seems like your questions are usually for Pieguy. :/

Your play actually reminds me a little of Pieguy. If I didn't know her whereabouts in this game I'd probably have made that assumption when you said you were an alt.

[sekai no ki]

I don't think anyone should be expected to answer personal questions from a stranger on the internet. I'd be pretty creeped out, too.

The only 'personal' question in the lot is asking about his job. And he brought it up first, when he suggested it as evidence that his math couldn't be wrong. Being willing to use it as evidence off the cuff like that suggests that he's comfortable talking about it.

To me, it was that question that put the question over the top in a mafia game setting. In a casual setting, if someone asked about my job I'd decide how much if anything I cared to share and leave it at that. And I'd expect "not answering that, sorry" to be accepted.

I'm actually more annoyed with MS for continuing to ask him after he'd said no.

Game dynamics involve relative strength of stance, confidence, experience, charisma, etc. There are implicit power (e.g., wagon-leading) differences due to the dynamics, and to me, this type of questioning could be intimidating if I felt I was on the losing end of too many factors of dynamics. Someone else jumping in and not accepting "No" would bother me even more.

Firebringer's issues may be completely different, but he has made it clear he has issues and he's answered the questions he's willing to answer.

I'd kinda like it if the whole topic gets dropped.

Well, wanted to ask. Sekai didn't claim their flavour, no?

We haven't. At the moment I don't see much additional benefit to town knowing our flavor. If you think otherwise, let's discuss.

[sekai no ki]

The next stuff that hits the thread is the back and forth between wisdom and kaboose about kaboose's meta reasons for thinking wisdom could be scum. At the time, I thought this looked bad and was thinking we might vote him once pie and I synched. It still looks bad, though kinda fits kaboose's playstyle and apparent experience that he'd jump to different = scummy without thinking that the difference is from scum-Wisdom games he's played.

In your previous wall, you seemed to take the opposing stance when you said Sthar8's case on Kaboose was bad.

Pie and I have had different reactions to some things that have happened. As indicated, I've played very little with Sthar8 and I'm much slower to reach conclusions about him as a result. Pie has more game experience with him. I can't say for sure, but I think that experience informs what looks off or typical to her.

The only scum-motive I can see for how he kept referring to the flavor to a degree that Wingback thought it was a crumb and kaboose thought it was rolefishing is exactly that - to prompt a reaction from whoever had the role.

How likely do you think this is?

Not all that likely. It looked mostly like he is just enjoying the hell out of the flavor. Like I said, that's the only scum motive I can see in his references. The more references he made, the less likely he was to get an off guard reaction.

[sekai no ki]

I'd kinda like it if the whole topic gets dropped.

That's perfectly fair and I'm not going to push it, especially since I feel like I got what I needed from the interaction.

But for the record, in a casual setting if you say in conversation "you're wrong about that. I have a lot of experience with that issue from work." it would be neither invasive nor rude to ask "oh? where do you work?" I would never have posed the question without prior indication that it was a comfortable topic.

Thanks.

[sekai no ki]

I was feeling like you haven't made much of an effort to question us. Looking at your iso, I see several questions and comments for us in the early game. They seemed more about understanding our reads and asking for more detail than about directly sorting us. And they fell off after you had that first go-round with MS.

Why is trying to understand your reads in more detail different from directly sorting you? Isn't understanding someone's reads a good way to figure out their affiliation?

Understanding someone's reads is the first step. Value judgements about the reads, challenges about disagreements, probing at discrepancies, etc. are important parts of the sorting process.

If, after a player understands another player's reads and does'nt move on to other steps in sorting, the implicit message is that they don't have a problem with the posts and are satisfied with explanations.

Which doesn't gibe with a null read.

hence my wanting to know how she plans to sort us.

[sekai no ki]

@Sekai, can you post your reads on all the players?

I want to post a synched reads list, hopefully tonight.

[sekai no ki]

I'm profiling him. I did the same thing to you once, but I was more subtle about it.

can you link me to the game where you did this and what your alignment was in it?

The "squicky opportunism part was pretty accurate. I had a similar problem with Kaboose which I mentioned earlier in Post 339 and Post 344.

i agree that it was definitely the best part of the case. however, i think kaboose is a type of player who doesn't *really* care much about pushing any one target and has a tendency to throw votes around whereever without much conviction or solid reasoning behind any of them. while it's infuriating, i've seen a lot of players recently who play like this. i could see sthar pushing this regardless of what his alignment is, but the point here is more that i don't think this specific point in his case holds water - the part of the case i had issue with was mostly the third point (see below)

The third point about Wisdom was something that I mentioned earlier as well in my two posts that I linked. I think players tend to remember the alignments of others in previous games remarkably well. For instance, if I picked a random game of yours and asked you who the scumteam were, my guess is that you would recall accurately. Can you tell me who was the scumteam in Left 4 Dead without looking? It is something I noticed a while ago - it is very hard to forget who was scum. Granted, it doesn't apply to every player but if Kaboose was paying enough attention to Wisdom in those to notice behavioral tells, also forgetting that Wisdom was scum was unlikely. Anyways, I don't suspect Kaboose now. I just think he's a wierd anomaly. I'm more hoping to get a read on your motives and possibly Sthar8's. I'm not sure I'd have said Kaboose was backpedaling. I thought he was making stuff up by referring to Wisdom's meta and got caught on it.

i don't think kaboose has any motivation to lie about that regardless of what his alignment actually is. it is likely something that would be accurate over all of his games, and thus entirely playstyle. scum usually don't like about objective stuff like that unless there's a *very* good reason for it, since in most cases you can just as easily fact-check it and realize they're lying about it (you could argue this isn't the case for this, specifically, but i think it is similar in that given enough games it would become obvious it's just part of his playstyle).

i think that even if he *is* scum here, his thought process there went something along the lines of "wisdom is playing differently from before - i think this is something i would be picking up on as town" and there it was, rather than him lying about not remembering what people's alignment were in his finished games. which means it's entirely null, since it could just as easily be coming from town-him as it would be coming from scum-him: he's either town, or scum faking it.

i think this is the kind of thing someone would be able to realize if they sat down and looked at it for a while, which is why i think sthar pushing it as scum motivated is a shallow analysis of the situation

(and purely because i'm a showoff: mastin2, rubicon, actiondan, majiffy, sven. ~)

Sthar8's case brought up similar points to mine. Why did you only have an issue with him and not me (was it just the meta-reference of Sthar pushing cases like this in the past as scum)?

i don't remember your case on kaboose being that similar to his and i only remember agreeing with the point about kaboose not asking any follow-up questions being scum-motivated, which wasn't a point sthar brought up in his case

[sekai no ki]

i actually really don't like anything ms has posted recently. his interaction with polar came off similarly to his interaction with etl in that it looked like he was being deliberately obtuse and just making up shit. 859 is what is primarily making me think this - it struck me as a very unusual thing for him as town to say, whereas i think it is something fairly typical he would say as scum in order to obfuscate.

i like polar's fake daycop claim. i think they're *probably* town, although i think most of what they've done individually would be fakeable.

sthar's questioning re: fire is actually the exact same thing he did to me in the team mafia game where he was scum: he asked me a bunch of questions about how i play in general (which had nothing to do with what was actually happening in the game) to get an idea of "how i think". i'm interested in if he has a tendency to do this as town and, if he does, whether he does it in the same way he did it here.

when i get a chance i want to read wingback more in-depth. mostly to see if i can pick up on what ms is supposedly seeing in his posts, somewhat in order to make sure we're not on the wrong track about him.

[sekai no ki]

What I was doing in the game with you is something different. I borrowed the tactic from Titus; she uses it to reach compromise with players with whom she is in conflict. You take turns asking each other questions, guaranteeing honest and complete answers. I've always been vaguely amused by how easy it is to manipulate from either side as scum.

when you use this strategy, are most of the questions you ask related to playstyle or how someone plays in general or is it primarily game-related content such as what people's reads were or what their reasoning is for doing certain things?

i'm asking because i don't really remember much in terms of us trying to reach a compromise that game; i thought you did it because you were (pretending to) take issue with my playstyle and wanted to know how i thought in general. which would seem to fit more with forming a profile of a player than reaching a compromise on something - and i don't remember anything you asked having to do with reads we disagreed on as opposed to knowing how i thought as a player.

I think you're misunderstanding my point there. I don't doubt that Kaboose doesn't remember who was scum in his previous games. What I take issue with is that knowing he isn't remembering accurately, he would attempt to use meta from those games as a reason for suspicion. That seemed manufactured to me, and I felt like he was using truth to cover for his earlier bullshitting.

i agree it makes no sense that kaboose would attempt to use meta in that way without bothering to look up what wisdom's alignment was first, but "makes no sense" doesn't scum make. it is just as likely that, for instance, he would have assumed wisdom was town in at least one of those games and failed to realize that this was not, in fact, the case. he didn't look it up because he was working under the assumption this was the case and thus didn't see a need to look it up first

it essentially amounts to the same thing: that he didn't realize wisdom was actually scum in all of their games together. and i think this is something that he wouldn't have realized regardless of what his alignment actually is, and i think he would have pushed wisdom was scum for it regardless of alignment as well

Can you expound on this please? What is making you think town there?

he wants to confirm or deny kaboose's cop claim and so he fake claims daycop in order to see if kaboose's reaction was as strong as his reaction when he first claimed cop - the logic being scum would likely. i think that's a town thought process.

it essentially comes down to whether you think he faked it or not; i hold the opinion stuff like that is usually rather unlikely for people to think about faking

[sekai no ki]

Consolidated reads:

Town:

Wingstop - We both like his lines of questioning and that he keeps going after people rather than just sitting around and resting on his early reads. ffery claims he's her strongest town read via play and that if he's scum, she'll be scared to play with him again.

Kaboose - Both of us really like the way the claim came out (it happened because Kaboose thought he caught scum lying, which is a mindset we feel is significantly less likely to come from scum than town). pie thinks certain posts he's made have a depth of thought that is more likely to be coming from a town player; as a few examples, 389 and 741 (she thinks newb-scum are a lot less likely to have specific people they take issue with when complaining about a wagon as opposed to just a blanket "don't like this wagon"; she also likes the conviction in response to Wingstop scum reading him for something that's entirely playstyle).

Firebringer - Both of us like that he's taking no prisoners and isn't at all concerned about appeasing anyone. The only one he's warmed up to was MS, and MS is the one doing the overtures. pie also thinks that there's a lot of posts of his she's read that were really obviously coming from an arrogant-town mindset, i.e. "I'm right about this and everyone who agrees with me is bad for doing so"; she also liked him correctly pointing out that MS fake claiming cop wasn't indicative of him being scum when that was a pretty big point of contention (analyzing motivation).

Kinda town:

Polar Bears - ffery is leaning town, but not as strong as the first three town reads, although the reasons might come down to hydra stuff; there's a slight dissonance in reads when they aren't synched and the arguments with MS had a negative impact on the gamestate. pie doesn't have an in-depth read here, although she's thought some stuff they've done looks town on a surface level (them fake claiming cop to get a reaction out of Kaboose as the most recent example; their reaction to MS as another).

ETL - pie likes her reaction to Wisdom at the very start of the game for reasons already explained. Outside of that, neither one of us has much of a read here. ffery worries that she's not really pushing anyone outside of MS, and her gut thinks she makes sense as an sthar partner.

Not so town:

Metal Sonic - There's a lot about MS ffery hasn't liked: buddying us after scum reading us, buddying up to Firebringer, supporting sthar's personal questions re: Firebringer, and the off-the-wall scum read on Wingstop for "not scumhunting". pie has a similar conclusion after looking through his ISO again. She agrees the blanket scum read on Wingstop is bad and thinks he could do a hell of a lot better than that. She also absolutely hates MS's interactions with ETL and Polar Bears for reasons already explained (being deliberately obtuse, not looking like he's actually trying to do any sort of meaningful engagement), the latter of which came after she told him he needed to quit fucking around and play the game properly (aka it shouldn't be coming from him just trolling as town).

sthar8 - ffery feels he doesn't look like he's legitimately scum hunting. She thinks the whole "profiling" thing re: Firebringer looked almost like busywork and that it was a very unnatural direction to take with him. pie has her own thoughts on the "profiling", most of which she's explained already (she thinks it looks extremely similar to what he did in the Team Mafia game where he asked her a bunch of playstyle-related questions that had nothing to do with the actual game, probably in order to serve as a distraction. P-EDIT: This might not be the case anymore pending her looking through the game sthar linked and researching other games where he did this); she also thinks the scum hunting sthar has done when he has scum hunted has been relatively shallow (the Kaboose case as the primary example).

[sekai no ki]

Wingback is an alt. why would you townread him so fast when you don't know what he's capable of. He referenced L4D mafia which suggests an experienced player. His posting style in nice fancy caps and walling suggests an experienced player. Everything about this screams "I do not suck". I hold this unknown player to higher scrutiny. Not sure how you guys drop town reads on him so fast.

i told you i wanted you to try and explain it to me in-depth and you haven't done it yet

i can't evaluate your read correctly if you don't, you know, actually explain where you're coming from on it. eventually i want to make a wingback-town case so we can attempt to work it out better, but that hasn't come yet because i haven't had much free time recently

i've also said there were some things that you've done that have looked town, but whenever you pull the kind of shit you pulled re: polar bears it makes me want to forget about any town read i ever had on you, because i know you can do a hell of a lot better than that whereas i know you tend to act deliberately obstructionist a lot when you're scum. i've even told you after you first did it to etl to step it up or get lynched and you went and did it anyway. /shrug

Buddying is not a scum tell. How are you even pushing this? Try something else

i will defer to ffery on this since she's the one who's taking issue with it, but the obvious conclusion is that the way you went about it wasn't indicative of town

[sekai no ki]

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

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I don't expect you to defend me because you don't actually have points to help me with even if I'm a day friendly messenger and ICed to you

but you need to reread my ISO and get ffery to join in too.

I know what you're referring to. Pie and I both have issues with your play, though not entirely the same issues.

I don't want to lynch you today, but the issues are there.

The aspect of your buddying me that I didn't like was that if you had a genuine scumread on us, the posts I made in reply to you weren't adequate to change a scumread.

[sekai no ki]

I don't expect you to defend me because you don't actually have points to help me with even if I'm a day friendly messenger and ICed to you

but you need to reread my ISO and get ffery to join in too.

I know what you're referring to. Pie and I both have issues with your play, though not entirely the same issues.

I don't want to lynch you today, but the issues are there.

The aspect of your buddying me that I didn't like was that if you had a genuine scumread on us, the posts I made in reply to you weren't adequate to change a scumread.

I don't think you actually caught what I'm referring to.

I think I actually did.

[sekai no ki]

There's only so far I can extend trust when you obfuscate like you have and play rhetorical games rather than try to clarify stuff, like you've done with ETL and Polar Vortex.

[sekai no ki]

three scumreads?

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Again, I didn't think that he lied and I wasn't pushing semantics. I think there is dissonance between being cognitively aware that you're not accurate at meta and choosing to use meta as your only evidence on a push. Either of those things alone would not have bothered me, regardless of accuracy.

Your argument here seems to be "some people just bullshit sometimes." And that's totally fine, but since bullshitting has a higher play value to scum, I am going to pressure and more closely examine the players that I find to be bullshitting.

i don't think he is cognitively aware that he is inaccurate at meta. i think he was working under the assumption that wisdom was town in at least one of their previous games (since in a vacuum this is something that is extremely probable), and that he tends to make assumptions like this in general when meta-ing someone - and i think he legitimately thought that he could push wisdom for being different from his past games as a result.

that you're attempting to push that he should be aware that he's not fully accurate at meta, when in reality this expectation is unreasonable, is where my issue with it lies.

[sekai no ki]

and I know pie at least is gonna post tons without provocation because she's got mastin dna somehow.

i can't tell if you intend this to be a good thing or a bad thing. in the meantime, i'm taking it as a compliment.

[sekai no ki]

Well I

think

they're scum so nyahh

three scumreads?

At the time when I was

back and forthing with them, respectively

what?

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ms, what i really would very much like to see from you is an in-depth explanation of your polar bears and wingstop reads. that's honestly it, really, cos i do think some things you've done this game really don't look like your scum game and the only reason i'm so skeptical of you here is the way you're handling those reads (and your scum reads in general).

i am fairly sure that i'll be able to work it out if you just cooperate with me on this for a bit.

[sekai no ki]

But that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw, because he made a post where he announced that he is aware of his inaccuracy at meta...

was this before or after there were people telling him he shouldn't try to meta people if he couldn't remember what people's alignments in their previous games were?

if it's before, i might see your point

[sekai no ki]

AtE like a muthafucka

AtE is not even close to an exclusively scum behavior.

[sekai no ki]

There has been an unusual amount of cheerleading for votes in this game. I don't think it's scummy behavior, but it does tend to stir up the contrarian in me.

we have a couple irons in the fire and we'd like to see furthier developments take place.

[sekai no ki]

will get back to this in a few hours.

[sekai no ki]

We got behind over the weekend. Pie's time is more restricted than mine atm, but we'll synch as soon as possible.

MS, I was pretty much certain I've never seen you play this way as town. Then I remembered you replaced in to the TM Twin Trap game and tunneled quillford in an at least superficially similar way.

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etl you were the last scum in that game. What do you think?

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I'm not even close to sold.

however, you seemed pretty convinced he was town after he self-voted. has this changed?

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The self-vote itself could be faked but the entire thought process of "

I've had this elaborate gambit planned to use my bad role optimally and get nightkilled and now that plan's gone down the drain, I give up

" is much harder to fake and I had an instinctual reaction to it as town. I'm not convinced some of his crumbs were posted with the intention to bait scum into nightkilling him because I've rarely if ever seen scum PR hunt by looking at first letters of each sentence of arbitrary posts and I'm concerned they serve a scum purpose as well.

I think his gambit plan, if there was one (and there could have been one regardless of his alignment) basically went down the drain with everybody and their uncles claiming/fakeclaiming assorted PRs. The timing of "I give up" seems more about the momentum shifts than about the gambit plan, though it's somewhat interrelated.

What did you think about his self-vote and his pushes on Polar Vortex and Metal Sonic?

The PV push felt like an uphill push - against the flow of the game at the time. The MS push felt like more of a push

with

momentum rather than against. I'd see the PV push as more townish than the MS push for that reason alone. I'm not looking at the pushes or other stances in terms of who they point to if he's scum. If we get to day 2 without a scum flip, I'll start worrying about pre-flip associations. Pie may feel differently, but that's how I usually approach day 1.

[sekai no ki]

I'll find and post them because I know what Pie was referring to. She hasn't been able to give this game time the last few days.

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This is the Mollie case in Ori: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6891867

This is the Doduo case in Over the Garden Wall: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6872592

[sekai no ki]

Thanks for the links. The first link wasn't so much a case as him just raging about having his scum play insulted. The second link was vague so I can't make much sense of it so it didn't really help me very much.

I'm interested in your reaction (pieguyn's especially because of personal involvement with both of those cases but your slot's in general) to his case on Polar Vortex here.

Who is the most likely scum? I want to see some actual scum reads and I haven't seen it so far. You've never voted anyone this game and the last time you posted a list, Metal Sonic and Sthar8 were at the bottom which I can understand. But you've since been reconsidering them and I want to know how this impacts your other reads. What happened to your reads on ETL and Polar Vortex? You mentioned that you had no read on ETL so how do you plan to develop one? Did Polar's reactions to Sonic's case help your read there? Would also like your synced thoughts on the past few pages once you get a chance to do that.

I thought the two cases pie was talking about had both passion, conviction and logic behind them.

his case agains Polar Vortex doesn't have those attributes to nearly the same extent, except possibly the conviction.

I pointed up a game to Pie that I thought might be significant - the Team Mafia Twin Trap game. MS replaced into the game during the last game day and scumread a town player. his case had conviction, but felt lacking in other ways. It was also incorrect, so I'm glad the town stayed the course and got the last scum lynched. I think I asked ETL about how she feels about MS' play here compared to that game. She was the last scum player.

here's his iso.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go


Anyway, he made a very strong reach-out to me - specifically me, not pie - earlier in the game. I played with scum-MS a few months ago. In that game, there was nothing resembling a reach-out from him.

I have mixed feelings. Pie's scumread was stronger. I really want her to get back into the game and see what she thinks about MS' play, and the back-off from PV-scum.

[sekai no ki]

have you explained why you think Wingback is scum?

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Hi!

Well, sthar crumbed cop, sonic claimed cop, kaboose claimed JOAT, wisdom got modkilled for claiming some outside knowledge on your slot(that was explained plausibly by ETL so no suspicion there because of it), I claimed daycop as a gsmbit(we think sonic did the same, but I was explicit and admitted it), firebringer also softclaimed sometning that wingbavk thought was cop but I thought vig(either way he said he didn't softclaim anything) and sekai claimed some role related to wisdom's

Other than that there was a back and forth between me and somic(you might want to read his case on us), some theory discussion me and your slot and me had with firebringer, insightful comments by wingback, kaboose is PI for his claim and that's it?

I think mine was the first claim and you didn't even mention me.

:/

I want to lynch sthar8.

TSO, plz look at ETL's iso and tell me what you think about her concerns about sthar8?

[sekai no ki]

I tried to do it, but my brain is too tired. I'm sorry, sekai, I know we don't have much time, but I was up until 4 am last night and I just don't have the capacity to do it right now. I promise you that I will put serious time into this thing tomorrow.

(I will say that although I definitely have paranoia regarding him I'm probably naturally biased towards townreading him because he's a pretty great guy.)

You know we're ffery and pieguy, right?

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: sthar

What happened to your wingback read?

[sekai no ki]

i'm at p48 and firebringer is probably town

i'll probably look at ms' polar vortex stuff in depth after i get fully caught up

[sekai no ki]

I'm happy with the scum team being Wingback and Sthar at this point.

where'd you get this from?

[sekai no ki]

OK

so, i think MS' 1063 is rather useless in that it's literally all buzzwords without any kind of thought process. the same thing applies for parts 1 and 2 of 1129. it's the kind of stuff that i could *potentially* see coming from him as town who thought the best way to show me that he was town was to try and force himself to write a case with all this fancy language in it, as opposed to just acting and pushing Polar Vortex naturally, and i could just as easily see it coming from him as scum just forcing a read. so i don't find those posts compelling nor do they tell me anything at all about his alignment.

moving onto part 3 of 1129,

Polar Vortex shows an ingenuine thought process with regard to their reads, suggesting that they have knowledge of who the members of town and scum are, and thus find it difficult to justify or explain how their reached their reads from an uninformed town mindset. "ETL is town, don't waste the investigation on her" (post]305[/post]) seems to be an attempt to keep up a helpful-town appearance, yet there was no indication prior to this post that he was townreading ETL "I found ETL scummy, but thought Firebringer was scummier" (210 posts ago in 98 and they backtrack on this later "No, I'm not sure" (307).

i didn't think this point was compelling - it is just as likely that their read just happened to change in the meantime, and 305 was pretty clearly not supposed to be a definite read - but i didn't think him picking up on it was scummy.

With regard to their read on me, Snowstorm initially engages this through a naked vote 540, despite not having any mention of suspicion on me prior to this. Bearbert D absolves all responsibility of the vote, "snowstorm voted Sonic, so I'll let that there and have it as an excuse not to think" (544), "You're not even reading when I said my other head voted Sonic:/" (547). This indicates a clear attempt at abusing hydra dissonance in order to push a read on town, with neither of them attempting to resolve the read or to figure out my alignment.

i thought this looked town, for a few reasons. we had recently played a game where the last scum was a hydra who had reads that were completely opposite each others' and they had criticized each other's reads the whole game without ever bothering to sync, and he "caught" them using the same logic; and in that game, he claimed he had "caught" one of the scum in the game we played before that using that logic and pushed it as a reason for them being scum there. i think this tell *does* apply here in that if you're a scum hydra, it is, in actuality, fairly easy for you to to walk in and push people and pretend not to give a shit that your vote is elsewhere (which might be a more convenient place in terms of scum motivation), and while i don't agree with this interpretation, Bearbert's posts actually *could* really easily be interpreted as that. he was saying stuff like this:

We'll how much is flavor alignment indicator?

I mean....Bojack could be evil right?
He has issues lol

I have no flavor knowledge. Is he a main character? Usually the guy in the title is town

Yes, he is. In the same sense that Hannibal Lecter is the main character of the show Hannibal(one of the main characters at least). Bojack could be evil(and would be one of the evilest characters?). But we shouldn't lynch him today with that claim....

That leaves me.... firebringer? I don't know

Oh, snowstorm voted Sonic, so I'll let that there and have it as an excuse not to think

which is actually an excuse i could fairly easily see myself making if i was scum and didn't want to move my vote for reasons. i don't think his accusation here was forced or out of place.

SnowStorm's thought process is disingenuous, through his pushes "Can we stop arguing with MS and just lynch him?" (715) comprising of no reasoning sans "He's scum, there's no better lynch" (728), "Besides, he IS scum" (732).

i went back and read it again. this is actually true: snowstorm didn't give any reason for suspecting MS at all unless i either missed it or am attributing a snowstorm post to Bearbert. in addition to that, i think if you read his attitude towards them with this in mind, the way he handled his read on them - which is something that i hated when i first saw it - made a lot more sense. he didn't actually start "trolling" until snowstorm made 540 in the first place. and after snowstorm's 715/732 i can easily see why he'd post shit like 844 which, in hindsight, i actually agree with; if someone pushes you and appears to have no reasoning behind it until they get prompted for it multiple times and then all of their reasons amount to "terrible reads", "chit-chat spam", etc., it makes sense he'd react the way he did to it. it's essentially buzzword scum hunting; he saw snowstorm point out a bunch of stuff without analyzing motivation and flipped out as a result. this is the kind of depth of thought i usually look for in ms' reads when he's town, although in this case he didn't make it remotely obvious in his actual post, but there it is.

However, one should note the extreme lack of conviction in Polar Vortex's push -- the tone sounds lazy and disinterested, almost as if he is pushing me with the knowledge that I will be flipping town. One would expect a town player with such a scumread to be putting in more effort to get it lynched and perhaps using a louder voice. Polar Vortex has done none of these things, suggesting that he does not actually believe that I would flip scum. This has the additional property of absolving themselves from scumhunting other players, and simply tunnelling on me for a significant portion of the dayphase.

i thought this was actually a pretty good thing to pick up on. bonus points because it is in line with how he and wisdom (who he references in the same post) play as scum: you can usually tell they're scum because it doesn't feel like they believe what they're saying

wingback i think pointed out a lot of these posts were before he had Polar Vortex as scum in the first place. which is true and something i'm considering, but i think this also plays into him putting a bunch of effort into making the best looking case possible; he could have just went back and tried to stretch to find shit in their original posts because he thought i'd be more likely to see he was town here if he had more points for them being scum.

so, tl;dr is i think the Polar Vortex case might be indicative of ms-town. this is way too much info on how i read ms. if he is actually town here, i am expecting him to abuse the hell out of this the next time he rolls scum vs. me.

[sekai no ki]

sthar is where i want to put my vote at the moment as well. at this point, i'm not sure who the partner is. i think firebringer, Polar Vortex, and wingback have all looked really town recently, so i would look in {Kaboose, TSO, maaaaybe ms} for second scum.

[sekai no ki]

have you read Sthar8's posts?

[sekai no ki]

Vote: Sthar8

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What are your thoughts?

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1012 and 1026 document our reasoning. There are tidbits scattered elsewhere in our iso, but those two posts consolidate it and respond to sthar8's rebuttal of our reads list.

[sekai no ki]

We also felt like ETL corroborated most of our concerns as something to be concerned about. She had other points we didn't have, as well, which I chalk up to greater knowledge and experience of his play in all alignments.

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Your case seems to essentially be "not scumhunting". Which is fair enough. I just don't feel confident pushing it given that it sometimes feels when I read back like sthar's not always fully there in the game, and that is a pretty decent explanation to the lack of scumhunting. It might not be right, but it seems more likely than "not scumhunting because scum". I will admit that him not being here isn't a towntell at all, but if you're making a case for him being scum I'm not sure I can run with that.

I also think that you're smart enough to see that, so I fail to understand where your confidence in sthar-scum is coming from. It's the consensus lynch right now, which you are eagerly pushing, and I feel like it has barely any basis.

It's the lynch we've been "pushing" for several days. The main question was what Pie thought of MS' play since we asked him for his Wingback and Polar Vector cases.

Sthar8 is in an odd backpedaling position, if you're town. he's been hovering around an ETL scumread probably since she started writing about her concerns.

[sekai no ki]

I am repeatedly feeling unconvinced with this, and while being wrong isn't a scumtell, the confidence with which you approach this is. Unexplained confidence in a poor read is really not something I associate with ffery-town. I don't know pie that well.

I have zero experience playing with Sthar8. I'm leaning on Pie for this read. I was encouraged that ETL agreed with Pie's concerns.

I'm not sure what to make of you. It's a whole lot of could be scummy/could be town commentary.

how much have you played with Sthar8?

I am thinking of voting MS, but I want to be fully sure that I want to on its own merits, before I do.

I don't think we'd join you on that vote today.

[sekai no ki]

Why?

1317

[sekai no ki]

wingback is like a version of F-16 taking only the good, analytical stuff and throwing out all the abusive stuff

it's pretty refreshing to see

[sekai no ki]

I don't understand this part. I do think he went and stretched stuff to make a more meaty case hoping to both a) be townread, and b) potentially lynch Polar. My point is that he had Polar as so town that he was willing to POE me out as a scumread so there has to be some basis for that and he provided none. And his only comments on Polar's early posts was that they were scummy. At the very least, I'd expect him to say that he thought some of Polar's posts were town but re-evaluated them from a different angle but him pretending like that townread never existed and Polar was making scummy posts all along smells like a made-up read. Not to mention he ignores my questions asking him for specifics.

metal sonic and i have a dynamic where he expects me to be able to see that he's town, given enough time/effort. i think he *was* reaching in some parts of the case, but i don't think it's for a scum motivated reason. i think he thought it would be more likely to get me to recognize he was town here.

this is what i meant when i said i didn't mind him including posts that he didn't read as scum before

i'm totally deliberately #fencesitting on the read on him because nothing he's done has been conclusively town and i could potentially see it coming from him as scum, but i just think it's somewhat more likely to be coming from town.

[sekai no ki]

tso's response to my ms wall is all sorts of NOPE and i will probably need another wall to explain why; this will come after i eat

[sekai no ki]

I am repeatedly feeling unconvinced with this, and while being wrong isn't a scumtell, the confidence with which you approach this is. Unexplained confidence in a poor read is really not something I associate with ffery-town. I don't know pie that well.

hello tso, i'm pie. yoroshiku onegaishimasu

(this is me saying that i get "too confident in her reads" all the time. it's a particularly hazardous element of my play style which on one occasion led to lynching scum d1/d2 and throwing the game in the same game.)

[sekai no ki]

Firstly, I don't think it's beyond scum-MS to make a reasonably plausible case. I am fairly sure he made multiple cases in Team Mafia which were widely accepted as okay - I wanted to go quote them but he has over 1000 posts and I'm not bothered. So the case in and of itself isn't town.

i agree that scum-ms is capable of faking plausible enough cases in certain scenarios, but the majority of the time his scum play is really transparent. i also strongly disagree with this reasoning as a whole. claiming it's not a plausible case because "scum ms can fake plausible cases" doesn't take into account what he was actually saying in the case.

the entire point is that, if it's coming from scum, there will be some sort of scum intent or indication that he's pushing it out of scum motivation somewhere in the case. you can't just flawlessly fake shit when you're scum no matter how good of a scum player you are. in this case i can see why he would push it as scum, yes, but i don't see why he wouldn't push the exact same case as town, so the argument that he was "forcing" it doesn't mean anything to me

if you want to convince me that the way he pushed it is indicative of scum, you'll have to convince me why it's unreasonable that he genuinely just wants me to read him as town as town

I think #1063 is more likely to come from scum-MS than town-MS. I think I remember, again using meta which I am not 100% sure of, that Metal engaged this kind of forced loquaciousness as scum in TM. I remember feeling the tone being completely off and although that's deliberate, it still rubbed me the wrong way. It's the same thing here.

I think the first part of #1129 is blatantly wrong, I feel that MS is easily competent enough to know that it's blatantly wrong.

i was not impressed at all by 1063 when i first read it and that is part of why i'm not *really* sure he's town here

i agree that the first part of 1129 was wrong, but i don't agree that his interpretation of it was unreasonable. asking a bunch of questions with no real direction behind it is a fairly common scum strategy. i can believe that that's what he thought Polar Vortex was doing here.

I don't really feel the next part garners townpoints either given that I as scum would probably use the same "scumreading" methods I use as town, especially if they've worked for me in the past, because they're familiar and efficient. Is there a reason you feel MS-scum is less likely to do this?

i strongly disagree with this reasoning. it's not about the fact that he did it, it's that i think the way that he went about it fits in line with how i'd expect him to act as town. claiming that it's not a town tell because "i would use the same scum hunting methods i use as town as scum" entirely fails to take into account how it actually happened and what his push is actually aiming to accomplish.

in this case, i think it's town because i don't think he's bs'ing or attempting to obfuscate here - the way he reacted was perfectly reasonable

i think you strongly underestimate how forced ms's pushes actually are the majority of the time when he's scum. a lot of the time there's flat-out no thought process behind any of it, and if there is one it's ridiculously shallow. i can see exactly what his thought process in this case actually was. he saw the snowstorm head of the hydra pushing that he was scum over and over for what appeared to be no reason, pushed it, and then the "reasoning" snowstorm gave was dubious at best (chit-chat spam?). i know why he thought it was disingenuous because that is the exact kind of shit i tend to pick up on when i'm town - snowstorm's 740 actually pinged for me to some extent when i first read it, although i didn't bother pushing it in thread because i wasn't town reading ms and i thought the rest of their play looked town

The part after that is the same - I haven't even read PV's push so I don't know if it's legitimate or not but for the same reasoning as before I don't really think MS should earn townpoints for it.

you *should*. you'd be surprised how much sense it actually makes if you read ms/Polar Vortex's iso side by side; i think the progression there is fairly obvious and i'd be impressed if he managed to fake it to that extent

I also have a nagging feeling that sthar is the town counterwagon to MS-scum. MS being on the opposing wagon but sthar not, the general feeling that it'll be sthar rather than MS who goes down at deadline, and the sheer lack of fucks-to-give in the thread that I would expect coming from sthar's scumpartner if he was on the chopping board all leads me to think I'm right about this.

i'm reading this the exact opposite way you are. the way it's played out actually has me paranoid of a you/sthar scum team pushing ms as a counterwagon to sthar. i obviously don't expect you to argue against this and it's more a paranoid thought than anything, i just want to throw it out there

i'm sorry that this likely came too late for us to actually have much of a discussion over it. i've been really occupied with other stuff lately :/

[sekai no ki]

Hi. If you lynch me, AP will be very sad. Don't lynch me.

No lynch is better than town lynch!

this isn't really how i would expect scum-ms to react to a wagon on him, either

usually when he gets pressured with scum he reacts in a far more hostile way. ffery's point about him reaching out to her earlier is another example of something i think is more indicative of him-town.

[sekai no ki]

*when scum

[sekai no ki]

k

be very wary of tso/sthar if ms flips town and i get nightkilled here

[sekai no ki]

and for anyone watching from the sidelines, i would highly recommend actually reading 1389 instead of being intimidated by its massive wallness and skimming it

[sekai no ki]

Do you think TSO-sthar looks like a likely combination? It doesn't to me. That whole I post from sthar about ETL and defending her I don't think makes sense if they're partnered

i'm not sure what post you're talking about but it's pretty easy to hard defend partners as scum. i do it in the majority of my scum games. link?

You won't get Nk-ed ofc. And I think you're kind of looking for reasons for MS to be town here to justify your read to yourseld tbh pie(I guess thst's the head that made the wall). That makes you town imo regardless of Sonic flip(less so if he's inno actually)

i have a lot of experience with ms and i think i have a pretty good idea of what he's likely to do as town vs. scum in most scenarios. it likely looks like this because i'm heavily drawing from my experience with him as a player, which most wouldn't know about

it is possible i'm wrong here, which is why i'm not actively opposing the lynch, but i do not feel optimistic about the chances of him flipping scum here.

[sekai no ki]

There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

What did you mean by this? You got read as town early and there was never a point where you came under serious pressure. It could mean that scum are townreading you but it would depend on who the scum are. Is there a reason you were expecting to be an easy target?

I jumped on defending ETL from wisdom's attempted cheating. It's possible that the scumteam is oblivious enough to have not seen it, it is possible that ETL is scum and her team decided not to push something that implicated her, and it is possible that the scumteam didn't think they'd have enough traction from that to lynch me.

If I were ETL's scumbuddy, I would want the sthar-slot lynched ASAP, since the broken logic there could be used to pseudoclear her. If ETL were town and I were scum, I'd want sthar-slot lynched for defending her. I might push that they're likely scumbuddies or that sthar-slot is wk-ing, but more likely I'd push her first on the scumbuddy logic and then him on the wk-ing logic.

It's a high value, low risk play for scum, and I'm trying to figure out why they didn't take it.

this?

[sekai no ki]

Perhaps, that was the best tale of my ratiocination. If only we were Faster Than Light, if only we moved at the speed of sound... Then we'd be invincible, we'd be bulletproof, undefeatable!

In a time not very long Ago, lived a very Mad woman. Being one of the most senior english teachers at the University, Lisa was shaking uncontrollably when she forced to leave. Lisa was not able to believe the news... what has she done wrong? Educating her students with the works of shakespeare, edgar allen poe, and charles dickens was her joy and passion. The Pain of discrimination stung. Rumors have been spreading that the employment of jews were being terminated due to some matters of international significance -- some of them have already ran Out Of Food. But Lisa was old anyway, and she had a huge mansion to herself, so she felt rather safe despite the setbacks. She immersed herself in the adventures of C. Auguste Dupin and Sherlock Holmes, to attempt to fall into A Midsummer Night's Dream. But in the end, it ended in Tragedy, as her estate was seized and her books, taken.

Look at the first capital letters of the ^

Wingback, this was the reachout I was talking about. On the chance MS wasn't lying about his role in those 2 posts, I didn't want to point them up directly.

I think I feel a little more "yeah, town" about MS than Pie does.

[sekai no ki]

ms isn't really capable of claiming convincingly as town. i think he did think that the way he went about it was convincing enough, though.

i could see bulletproof as either a town or scum role, but i think the way he went about claiming cop first is more likely to come from town-him than not.

[sekai no ki]

^what i mean by that is that ms has a tendency as town to not be convincing enough about claiming stuff; it always comes off like he's faking it. i believe he thought that the way he went about it would have been adequate to draw a nk.

[sekai no ki]

sigh.

I agree with Pie's TSO/Sthar8 scumteam if MS flips town.

[sekai no ki]

Firebringer, If I die tonight I expect you to avenge me.

[sekai no ki]

vote: Sthar8

[sekai no ki]

We tried to neighborize Kaboose. Result was that he was not who we're looking for.

[sekai no ki]

so TSO

1. any reason in particular you kept disagreeing with a lot of the ms town case because of the fakeability of his posts and no other reason? also, can you link me to a town game where you've done this before?

2. what do you make of sthar's reaction to ms's claim?

[sekai no ki]

i'd also like gun-to-the-head thoughts on who you think is scum atm if you don't think sthar is

[sekai no ki]

I see two separate potential directions in which this game will probably unwind.

If Polar Vortex and Firebringer are town, it leaves both scum among Sthar8, Sekai, and TSO. I'll re-read with that in mind to see which fits better. The other scenario is Polar or Fire being scum. I'm sure about the Polar-townread but not as much with Firebringer.

A few questions in the meantime:

@ Sekai, would like a detailed walkthrough of your evolving reads on ETL/TSO slot and Sthar8. It looked like you suspected Sthar8 and had a null-read on ETL which changed to thinking ETL is town and "trusting" her concerns with Sthar8 which finally changed to TSO/Sthar8 are scum together. What specific posts caused these changes.

I would like to read where you think you went wrong in your MS case.

And why you see the scum as being in one of the two groups you've outlined in your second paragraphs.

[sekai no ki]

i'd also like gun-to-the-head thoughts on who you think is scum atm if you don't think sthar is

You.

That isn't "thoughts".

[sekai no ki]

I know. I haven't really thought about this game at all.

You replaced in just before deadline. You were mostly doing ISOs to figure out where to vote. You helped mislynch MS. And you didn't really think about the game at all?

[sekai no ki]

This is ffery and I'm pissed the fuck off.

[sekai no ki]

@ Sekai, my suspicion of Sonic stemmed from the point where he first started getting active. His thought-flow didn't make a lot of sense and the abrupt ISOing of Polar in his conversations with Wisdom looked like he didn't really believe in his Wisdom scumread. I didn't buy his cop claim and the fake-claim gambit didn't fit with any sort of town motivation for me, and still doesn't even now. I'm perplexed as to why he fake-claimed cop and then townread Firebringer for his reactions. It looked like he saw Firebringer soft-claiming that he had a night action and tried to bait a counterclaim which he would back out of citing "gambit" and which would allow him to safely nightkill Firebringer.

The Kaboose vote was odd and came out of nowhere and it looked like a half-joke, half-serious opportunistic hop onto what was at that time a viable lynch. I didn't discount him just bussing Kaboose either. Then there was the suspicion of me because everybody else looked town (including Polar Vortex) which didn't make sense with his case on Polar Vortex which takes into consideration things that Polar did even before his townread. In hindsight he probably did it to impress you guys but I find it a weird thing for a townie to beef up a case to appeal to another player rather than cut through the BS and give his honest thoughts, the former falling in line more with scum who made up a case to appease certain players. The timing of his Polar Vortex case just when Polar and Sthar8 had a fight also fell in line with a scum motive and looked like he could be buddying Sthar8. Whenever I questioned him or made him explain specifics, he ignored all of those questions and never explained himself so I went with my best guess at his motivation.

I didn't say scum were in those two groups. I said that I'm townreading Polar and weakly townreading Firebringer. If I'm right, scum are within you, TSO, and Sthar8. But I need to re-read my townreads, especially Firebringer to make sure I'm not missing anything.

You didn't answer my question though

. I'd like an accounting of your ETL/Sthar8 reads and how they developed.

No I didn't.

I might later.

I feel like we might have townread you (and not just you) too easily. I'm concerned that you didn't post again after Wednesday, as the game day reached its conclusion. You weren't around to consider MS's revised claim, to sthar8 and TSO voting in tandem to make that lynch happen as soon as kaboose showed up again.

That's a lot of relevant game for which I have zero stance from you to evaluate.

[sekai no ki]

Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

HAHA

i think tso actually is just scum

[sekai no ki]

I know. I haven't really thought about this game at all.

You replaced in just before deadline. You were mostly doing ISOs to figure out where to vote. You helped mislynch MS. And you didn't really think about the game at all?

Since MS's flip.

Please don't insinuate that I didn't put work into this game - I put far more work into the game than anyone else did from when I replaced until nightfall. Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

That's not what I'm insinuating. I described the ways you DID put effort into the game. If you're town, you can give yourself some slack for having to vote when not fully up to speed. Why would you be demotivated with 2 calendar days to get caught up?

[sekai no ki]

Something that you seem to be pushing here is that MS's claim should have made people back off. If I was there I would have pulled the fucking throttle because Bulletproof is a classic safe scumclaim. Pushing "he flipped town" isn't actually germane to reactions at that time.

It is a classic and MS knows it. I don't think he'd go there as scum, which is why I (ffery) thought his crumbed reach-out to me, and eventual 2nd claim looked like it was coming from town. I think Pie is better at reading MS, and also more rigorous about what she'll consider to be town behavior than I am. After this game I'll probably think a little better of my own ability to read him.

[sekai no ki]

Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

HAHA

i think tso actually is just scum

This game is probably hurtling towards a confrontation between us because I think you're scum and I can't see myself changing that view and you apparently think the same. I won't be pressing you until I'm sure of a lot of other things, but you can push ahead and make the case for me being scum if you want.

If you're town then we need to figure that out because we don't have any more mislynches to burn.

The main thing that squicked me about you was you sthar8 read.

I had a very cautious nullish-townish read of ETL by the time she replaced out. I was at once reassured about my sthar8 read by her agreements and additional points about him, and concerned she was snowing us. Players who could be considered easy mislynches were town-looking for various reasons Kaboose due to how he claimed, firebringer due to meta, Wingback due to assertive-town looking play. If she was scum, she pretty much

had

to have her partner in her scumpile. And she was in a good position to call sthar8 scum and nonetheless vote MS and worry about day 2 on day 2.

Your turnaround on her sthar8 read, coming into the game near the end of day 1, if your slot is scum, was a great opportunity to back off that read.

[sekai no ki]

Can you explain why you're townreading Firebringer? I find that extremely hard to face into as an ISO.

It's a gestalt of a bunch of small things, a combination of meta and seeing just how stubbornly he hung on to positions that caused other players to suspect him. There were a few reactions I really liked, including his reaction to Sthar8's profiling questions.

I'm still skeptical that those particular questions would help much in figuring him out.

[sekai no ki]

I feel like this is being framed as a bad thing and I don't agree with that - if the reason for townreading someone is shallow, like that was, then they probably shouldn't be garnering townreads in the first place. So, yes.

Except, no. No, it wasn't "shallow" reasoning for MS being town. The logic I was using there not only turned out to be correct, but it was perfectly sound. There was nothing shallow about it.

MS would have made the majority of the case as either alignment, but certain parts of it were actually spot-on. And the things that

were

spot-on were things that I would very reasonably expect him to push as town, and things that, while it might not make sense from an outside POV, I can tell he would have picked up on because I picked up on the same fucking things (snowstorm's posts as the primary example). And he factored it into his play in a way that I would very reasonably expect him to do as town, whereas it didn't look like how he pushes reads as scum.

In fact, I think the reasoning you were using stood out as exceptionally shallow. You essentially used the fact that MS is capable of faking decent cases as scum as an excuse to handwave everything he actually said. Nothing there took into account the relationship between MS and me, or what MS actually does in most of his town vs. scum games and how that plays into what he did here, and you essentially entirely ignored the possibility that, perhaps, what we were seeing was just a result of MS

as town

genuinely wanting me to see him as town rather than it necessarily making him scum. And when I pointed out that you were just wrong about part of what MS was saying not making any sense, you still haven't acknowledged it.

The alternative explanation here is that you are actually arrogant enough to think that your read on MS is the end-all-be-all of MS reads, and that anyone who disagrees with you is dumb and/or scum for doing so - despite not only being flat-out wrong, but not even being able to point out why what they're saying is incorrect in the first place. And I don't think this is the case. I happen to think that, if you're town, the obvious conclusion here is simply that you can't read MS for shit. I think any reasonable town player, upon seeing people with a lot more experience with MS than them say MS was more likely town and have it be demonstrated to be correct, would be able to acknowledge as much. And I sure as hell don't think any reasonable town player's reaction to finding out they were wrong about MS would be to claim the person in this playerlist who actually has MS experience, and correctly called his alignment, had to be scum for it. On the other hand, the way you're reacting here is just about how scum would likely react in this scenario: they wouldn't be able to backpedal and go "o wait, my logic here was wrong. tee hee" because it'd become obvious they were pushing through a lynch on faulty reasoning and it'd make them look like obvious scum as a result.

So, if you're going to attempt to say shit that is blatantly wrong as opposed to actually listening to other people, you can fuck right off. If you're town, you should rethink your stance that it must be absolutely impossible we just happened to see something in MS' play you weren't seeing.

Correct. Bulletproof is a common scum claim. Sthar was right that MS was lying about it, he just wasn't right on why.

You're doing the same thing that I thought was suspicious about sthar's reaction to it: ignoring how MS actually played it.

I thought the progression from crumbing bulletproof, to faking a cop claim in order to look like he wanted to draw a NK, was significantly more town than not. Sure, bulletproof is a common scum claim, and scum are more than capable of crumbing it in advance. But scum who claim it most assuredly do not go about it in the way MS did (by faking a cop and flipping their claim around a billion times). Moreover, MS has a history of gambiting and fake claiming as town, and sthar had outright acknowledged in a previous post (1338) that it was at least town-motivated. A town player in this situation should have seen the BP claim/crumb and realized that it made perfect sense given MS's play. sthar's reaction to it, on the other hand, was terrible because rather than taking this into account, he flat-out ignored it and handwaved it as "lol, BP claim = scum claim". It was an entirely specious argument.

And you can claim that MS was lying about it and thus that it wound up being correct all you want. But that means shit because the entire point was the whole BP crumb/cop claim was a gambit, aka

he was playing exactly as if his role was, in fact, bulletproof

I also thought his reaction at the end was more town than not in a general level. Rather than attempting to antagonize anyone, he simply pointed out who the scum on his wagon were. It is fairly obvious to see this if you look past the tone of his posts, and it's a town reaction.

Both of these are points that sthar entirely ignored, and that you are continuing to entirely ignore.

Probably? I regularly espouse caution when it comes to townreading competent people for posts that sound good. In particular, this has happened to sthar in the past, for example. It wasn't as explicit as this game, but it's there. I'll have a look.

I'm looking forward to seeing this. Because you were blatantly wrong about MS here, and I'm fairly sure it will be telling to see if/how you've pushed reads in a similar way to the way you pushed this one.

[sekai no ki]

This would be a lot more reasonable if you were pushing that I was attempting to let the MS lynch go through while sort-of token opposing it so that I'd look good off it (I should have defended him a lot harder and wasn't able to because I didn't sit down and actually take a good look at his posts until it was too late). But that's not what you're doing (? correct me if I'm wrong on this), you're explicitly saying my town case on MS didn't make any sense.

[sekai no ki]

I'm waiting for Pie's thoughts about your replies, TSO.

[sekai no ki]

TSO, I've either tried to mislynch you or succeeded in getting you mislynched in our last few games because I felt like you weren't scumhunting and were disengaged unless you were under pressure.

Your play so far this game feels more with it. This game is different from the earlier ones I'm thinking about (Smite and Signs and Void) in that it isn't moving like wildfire and doesn't have a large player list. It's also summer time and you're presumably not in class atm.

[sekai no ki]

Partially flavor reasons. Partly being pretty sure he's town. And partly something he said about his role when he claimed that sounded like something in our role pm. Neither of us are familiar with the series, so we looked at his character claim in terms of if it would make sense for our character to be his neighbor. We thought it might.

Re the role PM similarity, that's a big part of why we took his claim at face value, though it may be naive to have done so. It could be that all roles regardless of alignment share that similarity. It could be that all town roles do. We decided that with little else to go on, and the possibility that we and Wisdom were supposed to be lookin for each other and all is for naught, we might as well try Kaboose.

[sekai no ki]

Didn't you put Kaboose back in your pile of non-townreads in Post 1318? What made you put him there and remove him back out again?

Pie downgraded her read. I didn't, and I was surprised at the time when I read that. I don't know that my reasons for the townread were better or if I was just lucky. I kinda feel the same way about our combined MS read.

[sekai no ki]

Yes, it didn't make sense from an outside POV. There are things you're saying here about relationships with MS, and extensive experience, and none of this was ever really brought up or clarified, short of me knowing you had played one game together fairly recently.

except we have been alluding to having experience with MS essentially the entire game if you read our posts in between the lines.

this is what i find most disingenuous about the stance you're taking here. you're claiming that our experience with ms is invalid in terms of reading him and YOU HADN'T ASKED US WHAT OUR EXPERIENCE WITH MS EVEN WAS. a large majority of the stuff i pointed out re: ms experience isn't just a basic "this is where he's done it before", it's about the general range of behavior and mindset i expect him to adapt as town vs. scum, and how what he did in this game fits in line with it in context. so no, i couldn't just link games and be done with it. when i say "ms would be likely to pick up on something like this as town" or "ms is likely to react in this way as town" or "ms is unlikely to do this as scum", it's a judgement call based on

all of my previous experience with him on a body of work level

. when i made arguments similar to those,

that in itself

was me referencing my experience with ms

and the thing is, i think i did a pretty good job of at least explaining on a general level why i was drawing most of the conclusions i drew. for example, this is the kind of stuff i was saying

Spoiler:

we had recently played a game where the last scum was a hydra who had reads that were completely opposite each others' and they had criticized each other's reads the whole game without ever bothering to sync, and he "caught" them using the same logic; and in that game, he claimed he had "caught" one of the scum in the game we played before that using that logic and pushed it as a reason for them being scum there.

bonus points because it is in line with how he and wisdom (who he references in the same post) play as scum: you can usually tell they're scum because it doesn't feel like they believe what they're saying

metal sonic and i have a dynamic where he expects me to be able to see that he's town, given enough time/effort.

usually when he gets pressured with scum he reacts in a far more hostile way. ffery's point about him reaching out to her earlier is another example of something i think is more indicative of him-town.

and if anyone had asked me to elaborate further on any of it (no one did), i could have taken a shot at explaining it in more detail, e.g. by linking the games where this occurred and explained more about ms's behavior in those games. but, rather than you asking something inquisitive along the lines of "why wouldn't ms do X as scum", or "is it really that likely ms as town would stretch to get you to see him as town here", or "where did ms do this as town before", we got ... you essentially handwave dismissing it because you thought he'd use the same arguments as scum as he did as town. and, even though it came probably after it was too late to do anything about the lynch, i attempted to respond to that as best as i could (no, he does not, in fact, use the same arguments as scum that he does as town).

this is also entirely failing to address the points of the case that actually

did

hold water

so i don't think you actually cared to take into account our experience with ms here, i think you were trying to discredit it

I feel this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of argument, where you would harass me for my stance no matter what one I took. I have taken the stance you describe here as scum in the past. I think I did it in AAA, where I was scum and ffery was town.

i don't think it is (the difference here being the fact that whether you thought it sound reasoning to say it wasn't worth analyzing ms' posts because they were all fakeable or not is an immutable point, aka you shouldn't have believed it back when the lynch was occurring if you came in and said you don't believe it anymore now), but this is a fairly minor point and i prolly wouldn't have taken issue with it if you had just walked in here and admitted your read was wrong so if you're claiming you'd be capable of that as scum it's a moot point

When did you do this?

this post:

The part after that is the same - I haven't even read PV's push so I don't know if it's legitimate or not but for the same reasoning as before I don't really think MS should earn townpoints for it.

you *should*. you'd be surprised how much sense it actually makes if you read ms/Polar Vortex's iso side by side; i think the progression there is fairly obvious and i'd be impressed if he managed to fake it to that extent

contrary to what you're saying here, *you* are the one who didn't actually attempt to cross-reference what i was saying about the parts of ms' case that held water. i mentioned that some parts of it made sense, and your response was to claim that you hadn't read it and then attempt to handwave dismiss it again because it was "fakeable"

Actually, what I was pushing was that you were "attempting to let the MS lynch go through while sort-of token opposing it", and that your token opposition was the MS-town case, which I felt was extremely open to perspective, more so than anything else in the game.

and the only reason it was supposedly so "extremely open to perspective" in the first place is because you were explicitly ignoring everything we were saying about our previous experience with ms in the first place, so this is a circular argument. if you're town, you should step back and realize this.

i think that covers most of it. if there's anything specific you were asking me about that i missed, let me know

[sekai no ki]

i'm against a no lynch today for a few reasons (Polar Vortex and firebringer both seem to be widely regarded as town so even if one of them doesn't die it doesn't really tell us anything, but even outside of that, there is the possibility of a protective or blocking role in the game). the second point i think is the more relevant one

[sekai no ki]

I'm trying to read this game objectively but I am at the bottom of an incredibly low spiral. I never get like this about Mafia, but I feel a little bit like crying about this game, and I haven't cried in years.

I'm sorry this game is getting to you. It's gotten to me, too, though probably for different reasons. I feel like town was hobbled almost from the start due to the modkill.

What is it about this gamestate that is getting to you?

[sekai no ki]

<3 kiddo

VOTE: sekai

hydra dissonance, BoP, stretching for townpoints. I think ffery and pie both play a better towngame than this.

This is a load of horseshit. It's one of the most perfunctory and buzzwordy bad reads I've ever seen on me-solo or on one of my hydras.

My philosophy about hydraing is that it's two people, with two skillsets, and two (though probably interwoven) sets of experiential meta. I never paper over or hide where my partner's reads differ from my own. As scum, I sometimes play up and manufacture dissonance, but I tend to do it on the front end. I doubt that I would ever use it on the back end of a flip as scum.

I don't even know what "stretching for townpoints" means.

[sekai no ki]

Sekai if you are scum going to be so mad post game lol.
I mean, you got me fooled.

the feeling's mutual. Though I'll be mad mostly at myself if you've gotten past me here.

[sekai no ki]

I shouldn't be here, but it is worth saying - sthar makes a point. It's alright to say "we do dissonance as town" but for me, there's no real sense of you two posting in a PT trying to resolve reads, though my frustration is potentially blinding me here.

We did that for our big reads list on day 1, and we noted where we differed.

Winding the day up, and not knowing when or if the hammer would fall, we both wanted to get our thoughts into the thread. I think we were right to do that. The thread closed very quickly after kaboose hammered.

[sekai no ki]

So, definite scum in Sthar8, Sekai, Firebringer (unless I'm wrong on Polar). That doesn't help very much for me but I want to see how it affects other player's scumhunting knowing it isn't me and TSO since we're the only ones who've had a chance to quickhammer.

You are really freaking me out. These last couple posts are the sort of shit I'd be posting while waiting for my partner to show up.

UNVOTE

[sekai no ki]

Firebringer should explain the Sekai read.

Sekai, please answer my question which you've put off for a while now.

My back and forth with TSO should have answered your question. What are you unclear about?

[sekai no ki]

Who do you think is my partner?

I'm not sure you're scum. But, your posts about clearing scumteams ping hugely when someone's in hammer range.

Reminds me of a micro I played last winter, where Pine signalled his partner he was around to quickhammer.

[sekai no ki]

I'm talking about your read on me, to tell the truth. Pie keeps including these addendums like "if you're town you need to realise this" (WHICH BASICALLY MEANS IF YOU'RE TOWN YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME), while you seem to think I'm town with your comment about scumhunting. What gives?

I don't know what comment you're talking about, but I

am

trying to keep an open mind and look for how your play would make sense coming from town.

[sekai no ki]

I'm interested in seeing who Sekai thinks it is. It can't be Sthar8 obviously because he's the one at L-2. It can't be you because you already voted. It can't be TSO because we've had lots of posts and didn't quickhammer. So they must think it is me and Polar. I want to see them justify it.

Or your partner is already on the wagon. Or your partner is sthar8 and you're trying to spook town off of it. In which case well done!

[sekai no ki]

Who do you think is my partner?

I'm not sure you're scum. But, your posts about clearing scumteams ping hugely when someone's in hammer range.

Reminds me of a micro I played last winter, where Pine signalled his partner he was around to quickhammer.

Links please.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=59579

The specific post was here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6414461

[sekai no ki]

Who do you think is my partner?

I'm not sure you're scum. But, your posts about clearing scumteams ping hugely when someone's in hammer range.

Reminds me of a micro I played last winter, where Pine signalled his partner he was around to quickhammer.

Links please.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=59579

The specific post was here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6414461

That post was a scum player addressing a townie asking if there was anything he wanted. Not going "here I am, so eliminate me and this player as a scumteam because we haven't hammered."

That's true. Pine was ridiculously hamhanded in the way he went about it. What you're doing, IF you're scum is considerably more finessed, but absolutely did allow you to post game-relevant stuff while someone who if town was sitting within hammer range.

[sekai no ki]

There's another aspect here though. Within minutes of voting me, Sthar8 was at L-2. Unless he dropped a vote and went offline, that should have been an issue of major concern. Particularly if he's town.

[sekai no ki]

Can you go over your reads again.

Currently Firebringer and Polar Vortex are my strongest town reads.

Your play today has been very wait-and-see. you talk about trying to figure possible teams out but haven't done much in that department unless I count your "scum team can't be me+TSO" announcement after you both posted within a few minutes of each other.

This, plus feeling like you never came under anything close to enough pressure to actually obvtown on day 1. effort (of which you have put in" doesn't correlate to town alignment in an experienced player.

So, for me, scumreads are still Sthar8 and TSO, but you aren't a townread and are a distinct possibility for sthar8 partner.

[sekai no ki]

There's another aspect here though. Within minutes of voting me, Sthar8 was at L-2. Unless he dropped a vote and went offline, that should have been an issue of major concern. Particularly if he's town.

What does that tell you?

That (if he was here) being lynched today isn't game-over level of oh hell no.

[sekai no ki]

Thought process is caution.

I don't make it to lylo/mylo often despite probably averaging about 60 games a year or thereabouts. Despite Pine all but counterclaiming me in that game I went through absurd gymnastics to consider the possibility that a 9 player game could contain a neighborizer (who was fake claiming bullet proof), a watcher (me) and a tracker (pine's fake claim).

The game firebringer linked is another town-me-at-mylo game.

The next most recent game where I was in mylo as town, I participated in a game losing mislynch be leaving someone in hammer range too long and not taking alarm at an unexpected L-1 vote. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60566


Paranoia and caution are watchwords of my playstyle regardless of alignment.

Some recent scum games where I was at mylo/lylo:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59569 (replaced into the game one gameday before mylo)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60510 (replaced into the game late day 1 - probably a good example of how I bus as scum)

[sekai no ki]

Also explain your thought process for unvoting if you thought it was me/Sthar8 together.

Also, that's just one possibility among several permutations.

I'm not ready for this game day to be so close to ending. I want to see PV and TSO interact. I want to see you put down some actual scum team thoughts and discuss why you think they make sense.

And I want Pieguy to reach a conclusion about TSO.

[sekai no ki]

perceived competence and the timing of your entrance here.

Polar being a hydra of two players with very different playstyles makes them a little hard to read. I have experience playing with Snowstorm, and I'd consider the level of activity in that hydra to be a likely town marker if it were Snowstorm alone. In the hydra, from what I can discern of his play vs the other head, he still looks like town-snowstorm to me.

[sekai no ki]

tso :<

i didn't mean to upset you, even if i was somewhat antagonistic in my post directed towards you. the intent of my post, when you really get down to it, is that i was hoping that you'd see that your read on me was really based on reasons that didn't hold water - and, if you are town here, for you to realize that you're biasing really really hard by thinking that our reasons for town reading ms were ridiculous even though it was correct.

i don't think i'm confbiasing here or that it's a situation where i'm reading everything you're posting and thinking you're scum as a result (for example, i am considering that scum-you might not have bothered continuing to question the ms read, although i still haven't figured out who else you would likely push in that scenario). my major issue here is really just that you attempted to handwave the ms arguments for poor reasoning and now you look like you're trying to strongarm another lynch on poor reasoning today.

[sekai no ki]

Pie keeps including these addendums like "if you're town you need to realise this" (WHICH BASICALLY MEANS IF YOU'RE TOWN YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME),

no shit, if it turns out you're town and you don't realize your reasoning for scum reading me is blatantly wrong, it leads to one of us lynching the other and town losing the game. so we do have to reach an agreement in some way if you're indeed town here.