Mini 581 - Andy's Death - Over

[goborage]

No atm. If discussion starts to stagnate or we can't make a consensus vote then yes.

[Dave]

I think the FBI Should claim, So yes

[camisade]

No atm. If discussion starts to stagnate or we can't make a consensus vote then yes.

I agree with you here. As long as we hit either SK or Mafia today then we're still in good shape right? But SK would be better.

[Andycyca]

Vote Count:

Sethaniel- 1 (JDodge)

Not voting (5): goborage, Dave, Sethaniel, camisade, Ythill

4 to lynch.

---

Strike count

[mrow]Player[col]Strikes camisade[col] Dave[col] goborage[col] JDodge[col]X Sethaniel[col]X Ythill[col]

[JDodge]

Mod: I unvoted and voted Sethaniel

[Sethaniel]

logic is more and more becoming a failing point in mafia

qft

I'm really sick of all the math-based arguments.

WIFOM, WIFOM, yeah, I know. I'm starting to feel like every time I say anything, this game or any other, someone jumps all over me with a "your stupid WIFOM argument is so pointless." Whether it's WIFOM or not, at least I'm still posting.

(Why "thankfully" anyway, Ythill?)

So, JD, psychoanalytically, you think I'm scum? Mafia or SK? If mafia, with whom?

@Ythill: I think what I meant was, it seems as if, since you advocate so strongly, if you were the FBI, you would have claimed, unless you investigated Jenter.

Why do I get the feeling that this push for everyone to clarify their stance re: FBI claim is possibly a gambit?

[Ythill]

(Why "thankfully" anyway, Ythill?)

Because it means you haven't revealed any important information.

@Ythill: I think what I meant was, it seems as if, since you advocate so strongly, if you were the FBI, you would have claimed, unless you investigated Jenter.

Or I could have advocated strongly without claiming to hide my identity. Like I said, WIFOM. Sorry you hear that so much, but it's true.

But SK would be better.

Which is why the FBI should claim IMO, but I'll follow consensus. So far we are 3:2 in favor of a claim. In a matter this important, a tie should go to not claiming, so I guess it's all up to Seth.

...this push for everyone to clarify their stance re: FBI claim is possibly a gambit?

I just want to know where everyone stands on this issue. Also, since I'm supporting a claim, I want to see if there is majority support. I can see how it could be construed as a gambit, but it would only work as one in extremely specific circumstances and, even then, it wouldn't accomplish a whole lot.

[Ythill]

Hellllloooooo???

[Andycyca]

Strike time.

[Andycyca]

Camisade: Sun May 04, 2008 10:01 am
Goborage: Sat May 03, 2008 10:42 pm
JDodge: Sun May 04, 2008 5:06 pm
Sethaniel: Sun May 04, 2008 7:27 pm
Ythill: Tue May 06, 2008 6:57 am

No prods yet

[goborage]

I was hoping JD was going to post his case against Seth.

Anyways I'm in agreement that Ythill's "poll" could be a gambit. Based on people's reactions to the plan the SK could probably pick out who is or isn't the FBI.

[camisade]

But SK would be better.

Which is why the FBI should claim IMO, but I'll follow consensus. So far we are 3:2 in favor of a claim. In a matter this important, a tie should go to not claiming, so I guess it's all up to Seth.

I don't think that a consensus vote should make the FBI want to claim anyway. The only person that really has a say in this decision is the FBI agent. 3 of the people still in this game are not acting with the best intentions of the town in mind, and whichever way those people vote can greatly affect the outcome of the consensus. So I wouldn't really say it's all up to Seth.

[Sethaniel]

I don't think that a consensus vote should make the FBI want to claim anyway. . . 3 of the people still in this game are not acting with the best intentions of the town in mind, and whichever way those people vote can greatly affect the outcome of the consensus.

qft

What is this vote really going to do for the town? FBI is under no obligation to abide by it.

I think it's most likely going to be used later as evidence towards the lynch. Either "he voted for FBI claim, so he's SK" or "he didn't vote for FBI claim, so he's Mafia" or "he wouldn't vote, so he's scum of some sort. . ."

[JDodge]

I'm not going to post my case until Seth answers Ythill's question of whether or not the FBI agent should claim.

I don't think that a consensus vote should make the FBI want to claim anyway.

In which case whomever is actually the FBI agent should kill themselves for not following the requests of the town.

If you are a town powerrole, you are obligated to follow the consensus of the town regarding your role actions. Not doing so is acting directly counter to the best interests of the town as a whole as determined by the town itself.

The only person that really has a say in this decision is the FBI agent. 3 of the people still in this game are not acting with the best intentions of the town in mind, and whichever way those people vote can greatly affect the outcome of the consensus.

3 of the people are not acting with the best intentions of the town, correct. But it is fallacious to use that as an argument as there is only one person in the town acting with the best intentions of the SK - scum wants to get rid of the SK as much as the town does, and frankly it doesn't matter for them to keep the FBI Agent alive.

What is this vote really going to do for the town? FBI is under no obligation to abide by it.

Because the FBI agent claiming will help us find the SK, which is definitely *goodplaying*. Already covered the first part.

I think it's most likely going to be used later as evidence towards the lynch. Either "he voted for FBI claim, so he's SK" or "he didn't vote for FBI claim, so he's Mafia" or "he wouldn't vote, so he's scum of some sort. . ."

How is this in any way a negative? It's almost as if you

want

our lynch choice to be less informed.

[Ythill]

QFT (all of JD's #313).

3 of the people still in this game are not acting with the best intentions of the town in mind...

Are you suggesting that we forego the lynch, because scum will inevitably vote? Town comprises a majority faction at this point. Acting as a team will allow us to win this game, it will also help us to discover those who would manipulate our consensus for illicit gain.

Based on people's reactions to the plan the SK could probably pick out who is or isn't the FBI.

I'm openly and proactively supporting a FBI claim. What you say is true and presents a risk to the town, but the course of action I'm pursuing makes that risk moot.

I think it's most likely going to be used later as evidence towards the lynch.

You are absolutely right. I will use whatever information we have gathered in this thread to lynch the bad guys and I hope that, if you are town, you will do the same. I don't believe that someone's opinion in this matter, by itself, will provide inscrutible evidence of alignment, but it will certainly help. As will considering the manner in which that opinion was presented.

What bothers me about your play, Seth, is that you obviously thought revealing the FBI was a good idea. You demonstrated this by attempting a WIFOM process of elimination to narrow down the possibilities. But when it was clearly stated that an FBI claim would narrow down the SK possibilities in the same way, you balked.

Note that everyone except Seth has explicitly stated that they believe a claim would help. The only difference in opinion is whether we should go ahead with it now, or as a last resort. If he's the SK, Seth's sweating now because everyone else knows that an FBI claim will make it much easier to catch him and, even if he's not caught, offer a chance of forcing him to no-kill.

He therefore can't support the claim. But neither can he vote against it, because his earlier actions don't jibe with that line of thinking.

Gob (my other SK suspect) was the one who brought up this idea today when he was of the opinion that it would help find

mafia

, but he's now balked as well, saying that we should go through with the plan at some vague future time if things don't work as well as we'd like. His statement is ambivalent and dangerously subjective, but I don't think it's as suggestive of alignment as Seth's actions.

It's interesting that both had a hand in initiating this (gob by starting the conversation and Seth with his process of elimination) but both are now of the belief that my attempt to include everyone in the decision is a gambit.

@ Seth: All I'm asking for is your "yes" or "no" on claiming now. You keep posting arguments that imply that opinion, and I don't see the townie benefit to keeping it vague. So please answer now. Last chance before I consider this a hung jury and move on.

[Sethaniel]

You demonstrated this by attempting a WIFOM process of elimination to narrow down the possibilities. But when it was clearly stated that an FBI claim would narrow down the SK possibilities in the same way, you balked.

Really? Huh. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I was getting a definite vibe that no matter which way I voted, certain people were going to use that as evidence that I was scum.

Of course, damned if you do and damned if you don't, right? Refusing to vote also singles me out for attack.

I vote yes on FBI claim.

Honestly, my top suspect for SK is gob.

[Ythill]

Thanks for being explicit, Seth. Of course the question of why you leaned both ways is still valid, but I think it takes a back seat to the result of your vote.

Consensus is settled @ 4:2 in favor of the claim, with the only dissent questioning the timing. On behalf of the majority, I'm asking the FBI to claim at this time

unless you investigated Jenter

.

Once the FBI names his investigation result, we will have a pool of four folks to select our SK lynch from. Just for the chance of showing off, I'm going to guess that the investigation target was JD.

And you were right Seth, I'm not the FBI.

[JDodge]

Not it. Have a good idea of who it is.

[JDodge]

Also, seth gains major town points for that last post.

Unvote, vote: camisade

Best lead at the moment. Will post case later, don't wait up for me, blah blah blah.

[goborage]

Why are you guys claiming right now? Ythill you just said that the FBI shouldn't claim if he investigated Jenter. What if the FBI did investigate Jenter? By claiming you guys are making it easier for SK to find FBI.

[Ythill]

@ gob: Oh yeah... sorry: brain fart. You're totally right.

Now I'm

really

hoping he didn't investigate Jenter.

[JDodge]

I'm following through with my massclaim plan from ages ago. What are you doing?

[camisade]

I didn't want to do this because I didn't see the point unless me or the person I investigated last night came under suspicion for being the SK because that way my identity wouldn't be revealed and we would have still have the same chance of catching the SK. I'm the FBI agent. Last night I had to investigate JDodge, of course. I got an innocent read, doesn't mean he isn't mafia though. I hope I'm making the right decision by claiming.

[Ythill]

Unless we get a counter-claim (which we shouldn't), the SK suspects have now been narrowed down to Dave, gob, Seth, and myself.

Dave's playstyle would be counter-productive to SK. Of course y'all don't know I'm not the SK, but I do. As I said earlier, my suspects are Seth or gob.

Since cam is town and I still believe JD is town, it comes down to which of the SK suspects I think is acting more like mafia and my pick would have to be Seth. Which means gob is the SK. Interesting little preemptive defense in #319, huh?

vote: goborage

[JDodge]

Unless we get a counter-claim (which we shouldn't), the SK suspects have now been narrowed down to Dave, gob, Seth, and myself.

Unvote, vote: Ythill

No legitimate reason to clear me.

now, demonstrate a clear link between Dave and Seth. Go go go.