Micro 839: Two-in-One (its over)

[Irrelephant11]

1 vote: Persivul

2 vote: Persivul

Hello again!

[Irrelephant11]

Um rude but sure

Doublevote: Maki

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t know how to make sure my scumreads die in the correct game
Has this sort of setup ever been run

[Irrelephant11]

Which thing is weird?
I think I agree but also I kind of feel like that’s a scummy suggestion

[Irrelephant11]

Like in an ideal world we wouldn’t lynch town in one game just to make sure they as scum died in the other game
But I can also see scum motivation in saying “only lynch me in one game, not both”
How’s this for a compromise:

B7 Vote: Elsa Jay

[Irrelephant11]

I mean it’s less fun but he might be right that it’s better play
Why are you voting me?

[Irrelephant11]

I didn’t imply you’d be happy getting lynched; I very clearly stated I saw scum motivation for your post (but also potential town motivation) and since I can split my vote to match my split mindset, I voted you in one game.

Literally where did I suggest you’d be happy getting lynched?
And where did I throw shade at you for not liking my idea?

[Irrelephant11]

There's no scum motivation, it's a townie in both games going "holy crap why lose a townie in 2 games when we're in a 7p".

I mean you can say there’s no scum motivation, doesn’t make it true
I also sort of scumread how you’re saying “when I set out to mislynch a townie in one game I don’t want to also lose a fellow townie in the other game”

[Irrelephant11]

I mean duh you don’t lynched a non-cc’d PR claim in a micro
But if someone claims double-vt how do you decide which game to lynch them in

[Irrelephant11]

But how do you decide which game to lynch a person in D1?

[Irrelephant11]

Let’s say you’re 100% certain that xyzzy/Pine is a scumteam, and you’re also 100% sure Taly/maki are a scumteam. What information do you have D1 to help you know which scumteam belongs to which game? Even the associations information you say you’ll be looking for won’t tell you *which game* those players are scum in
Your argument feels like it comes from the partially-informed perspective of a scum who knows which game to push which lynch in. I don’t see a way that D1 discussion will reveal scumminess in a way that’s tied to one game over the other

teach me like I’m dumb: how do I know which lynch to use on the hypothetical pine/xyzzy team?

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa

and

Irrelephant

current interactions give me "eh" vibes.

How someone thinks they should vote here is not 100% AI.

The votes and responses like:
Irrelephant: "teach me like im dub" |||||||| "duh - 'insert subjective idea we should all know here' "
and
Elsa: "why are you throwing shade at me?" |||||||| "votes back for the same game"

feels a bit forced.

Irrelephant, you seem confident on how a scum and/or town mindset would think in this situation...

Elsa, what do you think about

xyzzy's

voting?

What that I’ve said makes you feel the bolded?
Unless you’re just referring to my reason to scumread Elsa’s entrance to the thread? Do you disagree that there could be scum motivation to lynching different people in each game?
I’ve tried to think about how someone would play as s/s, s/t, or t/t and i think FA’s suggestion is very fitting for s/t

I don’t feel as strongly as FA about what “ideal play” is here but I think Pine makes good points about how separating the lynches will make it harder to hit scum

I voted Elsa with a random one of my two votes to try to show her how silly it is to only half vote (/I was kinda trying to be funny)
I do think the idea of using aritificial deadlines to play just one game at a time might be interesting

[Irrelephant11]

Or did you close your eyes and pick a game?

lol this sounded much less bitchy in my head

ill stop with the post-dump for now ;-;

I didn’t read it that way; I literally did indeed use a random vote

[Irrelephant11]

Let’s say you’re 100% certain that xyzzy/Pine is a scumteam, and you’re also 100% sure Taly/maki are a scumteam.

How did you reach that conclusion?

You're probably scum reading them for pushing low hanging fruit, making opportunistic votes, etc. Those things are specific to particular games. xyzzy/pine are probably doing those things in their scum game, but not doing them in their town game.

??
I was talking about hypothetical teams for a hypothetical scenario

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa and Irrelephant current interactions give me "eh" vibes.

I'd say meh vibes for Irrelephant.

For Elsa, it read townie - natural and well-reasoned. That surprised me, because last game we played, almost every post he made pinged me, and he made blatant setup errors. I was expecting more of the same here.

OTOH, he flipped town in that last game. And I should note that I replaced in like 80 pages into that one.

Why meh vibes for me?

[Irrelephant11]

I think Elsa’s read on me is BS (why scumread me for disagreeing with the idea to have separate lynched but not xyzzy?)but without much experience with him I can’t tell if this is him posturing to generate AI content or a real read
If the latter, I scumread Elsa
I also think Persivul’s “meh” read on me is B

The fact that both lynches flip simultaneously makes me return to wanting to lynch a single player in both games

[Irrelephant11]

BEHOLD IT IS I, PINE, IN MY FIRST GAME IN LIKE SIX MONTHS

So hey y'all. I'm doing a new thing this game. I'm a VT/VT. Discuss.

I don't think an actual VT/VT would claim this early

VOTE: C14 Pine
VOTE: B7 Pine

I think I agree that double-VT wouldn’t claim like this
But I’m not sure I’m sold on the idea that makes him VT+Scum

Irrelephant

, because

xyzzy

hasn't voted or mentioned me yet,

Irrelephant

mentioned me as a hypothetical scum for his point. You've only responded to one of them thus far, even though they both seem alright with double-voting.

I don't think

xyzzy's

vote in 30 was RVS?

I can’t decide if I think this misunderstanding (Elsa thinking xyzzy was RVS voting - I think it was obvious he wasn’t RVS voting) is non-partner-y. I think I think so?

Ngl I was really confused (and still am) on how the whole scum pt thing works on how they can talk to each other thing goes.
Like are the 2 scum for 1 game in a pt and the other 2 in one but they can also use it as a neighborhood to talk about the other game?
If so that's wacky. What if you sr your partner but you can't say anything cause you'd be outting yourself in the other game.
My head hurts just thinking about it

This kinda sounds like someone who’s trying to crumb that they’re scum who’s scumreading their partner

[Irrelephant11]

Atleast it seems my "1 game at a time" idea worked out. Funally enough, we get 2 weeks total, so the first week is with the ever so slightly more complicated Bird 7p. We'll have next week to lynch in Carbon.

This is not how I read your initial suggestion to have two separate lynches. I thought you wanted to play both games simultaneously, placing separate votes on two different players you found scummy. I can sort of get behind playing one game at a time, but i still feel like it is more likely to lead to two mislynches than two scum lynches (as opposed to the other method which I think is most likely to hit one scum *and* one town)

What that I’ve said makes you feel the bolded?
Unless you’re just referring to my reason to scumread Elsa’s entrance to the thread?

Do you disagree that there could be scum motivation to lynching different people in each game?

I’ve tried to think about how someone would play as s/s, s/t, or t/t and i think FA’s suggestion is very fitting for s/t

Yeah, I was meaning your interaction with

Elsa

.

And no, I do see potential scum motivation in lynching different people. But I also see town. (For reasons why I think double-lynching wasn't a good option in my opening posts) 34 I think someone's idea on

"ideal play"

here is NAI to some degree. Which was why I felt off about you/

Elsa's

interaction, as if it were a forced dichotomy.

I voted Elsa with a random one of my two votes to try to show her how silly it is to only half vote (/I was kinda trying to be funny)
I do think the idea of using aritificial deadlines to play just one game at a time might be interesting

But I feel better about your intentions now with this.

In that case; just think if this were one game for a moment; what are your reads?

I’m townreading you (reads the most honest) and Pine (mostly tonal reasons). I mayyybe townread xyzzy for what I read as good setup spec but otoh i should probably read that as NAI. I don’t have a strong read on Maki but I’ve shared why I think she might be VT+scum. I nullread Persivul but my read there might change depending on the reasoning for his read on me. I scumread Elsa for reasons below

Tfw you mention the idea of focusing on 1 game but Maki comes in and sweeps up the credit.

I don’t townread how you’re concerned with getting “credit” - reminds me of scum players in the Coalition setup who are overly concerned with receiving towncred when they feel it’s due

Pine, how do you feel about xyzzy and persival putting you at L-2 in both games at once for you claiming early?

Who is more scummy? For consistancy, we're focused on Bird right now, not Carbon.

I thought you thought xyzzy’s vote was RVS? Did I miss a post where you changed your mind on that?
Regardless this feels kinda “hey don’t you wanna scumread those two players for that thing they did?”
But that might be confbias talking? I don’t understand the need for the slightly aggressive response to Persivul shortly after this, either

[Irrelephant11]

Maki is a like minded individual. Much sense, she has.

The elephant has unexpectly disappeared. Wherever could he be?

I don’t feel like I’ve been gone long enough to warrant this callout. Feels more like trying to build a mislynch than actual concern for my thoughts (see: Taly’s questions regarding my reads, etc)

both votes: elsa

Persivul please explain your read on me

[Irrelephant11]

I’m only realizing now that there’s good odds 2/3 of you are scum


Xyzzy, Pine, how do you each read Elsa?

[Irrelephant11]

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

I have to admit this kinda struck me as towny
This might just be a play style + “defining ideal play” difference
UNVOTE: both
I’ll re evaluate tomorrow

[Irrelephant11]

K I’m back
Hope everyone had a good Christmas

[Irrelephant11]

Oh yeah this
And we still have a week okay good

[Irrelephant11]

A confirmed townie being able to offer input in a game they are dead in is invaluable even if they cant vote, fuzzy. Why get rid of the unique mechanic like that?

There's nothing special about the reads of a dead person.

If this were true, tree stumps would just stump D1. They generally don't do that.

This is true, and I don’t really understand why Elsa feels like a player who’s dead in one game is somehow more useful in the other game.

I don’t feel as strongly as FA about what “ideal play” is here but I think Pine makes good points about how separating the lynches will make it harder to hit scum

When the setup only provides for one mislynch, we can't be basing lynches on statistics.

Is someone basing lynched on statistics? Idk what you’re talking about here

I also think Persivul’s “meh” read on me is B

After our last meeting you should be happy with "meh."

Persivul please explain your read on me

I said that, after you had one conversation with another person, I was "meh," i.e. null, on you. Your repeated requests for an explanation of my read feels forced - like you're scum paranoid that you don't look townie enough, and you want to know why so you can correct it.

C14: Unvote

B7: Unvote

B7: FOS Irrelephant

Or maybe after our last game I want you to explain your read on me *before* trying to get me lynched so I can defend myself against a baseless accusation? Literally my request makes perfect sense based on our last game and your refusal to answer my question is scummy

Nope, not the only reason

Hey, I've got an idea - you could actually, you know...explain the reason.

Some reasons are defeated through explanation. Unfortunately, Taly's analysis in 118 is spot-on, and therefore defeated. The claim was to see what you people would do with it.

In my experience, laying out strict dichotomies like this usually indicates a flawed model. Your assumption is "I wouldn't do that as Town, so therefore a false claim must be scum." Well I ain't you, mate.

Call me old school. I understand that Lynch All Liars has gone out of fashion, but I think that's a mistake.

It isn't that it's gone out of fashion, it's that the core flaw has been discovered and dissected, and the strategy as a whole has been discarded. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous good reasons for Townies to tell less than the truth, and enforcing the old LaL strategy limits viable strategies.

Case in point, you pushing my claim too hard and stubbornly forcing your false dichotomy has exposed the gambit and halted the flow of really solid reactions from people who didn't know how to handle it.

Good job!

I townread Pine for this post and 107, but only if Pine summarizes what he learned from this reaction test at some point

[Irrelephant11]

I thought I was doing a decent job in causing uncessacary conflict to draw out scum by being ignorant and seeing who would gun for me.

Can I have some townread now?

Lol
I scumread the self-conscious desire to be townread
But I townread the boldness

I thought I was doing a decent job in causing uncessacary conflict to draw out scum by being ignorant and seeing who would gun for me.

Can I have some townread now?

Nope.

Lolol

Persivul please explain your read on me

I said that, after you had one conversation with another person, I was "meh," i.e. null, on you. Your repeated requests for an explanation of my read feels forced - like you're scum paranoid that you don't look townie enough, and you want to know why so you can correct it.

C14: Unvote

B7: Unvote

B7: FOS Irrelephant

Your push on

Irrelephant

thus far seems focused around his read on you... Also, I don't know what meeting you've had with

Irrelepehant

before, but 116 is dismissive of him.

Can you post-link or point out specific things about what he's said to emphasize your point?

@Persivul's 114

I actually want to know why

Maki

and

Elsa

would rather do B7 first because I'm not seeing the reason that makes B7

"slightly more complicated"

This feels a liiiiittle White-knight-y
But also I would also like the underlined

Your push on

Irrelephant

thus far seems focused around his read on you...

Not at all. I'm not even sure what his read on me is, would need to go back and check. I'm suspicious of him because he's so concerned about

my

read on

him

. As I clearly said.

Also, I don't know what meeting you've had with

Irrelepehant

before, but 116 is dismissive of him.

In our last game, we were both town, and I led a push on him and got him lynched. He was kinda pissed about it, but we kissed and made up afterward.

Yes and the reason you mislynched me was you never explained my read, so I never got a chance to defend myself or explain the things you were scumreading
This is why my read on you is dependent on your explanation of your read on me (which, you still have not given a reason for the original “meh” read - you’ve just justified suspecting me since I asked)
If you’re genuinely scumhunting I don’t think you’d be scumreading my play so far based on our last game together and that’s why I care to here more about your read on me

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

I have to admit this kinda struck me as towny
This might just be a play style + “defining ideal play” difference
UNVOTE: both
I’ll re evaluate tomorrow

I...don't know how I feel about this considering it came right after my post. Irrele did you see my post or not before you posted this. Because while yes I agree with the whole point in this quote the fact you unvoted right after is weirding me out slightly.

?
Yes I saw your post.
You said something about how my anger didn’t match the situation, and I was reminded of other times where I’ve scumread people because we didn’t get along more than because they were actually playing in a scummy way. I invited to make sure Elsa didn’t get rushed toward a lynch while I thought more about which of the two it is (no conclusion yet, still catching up).
Why is that “weirding you out”?

Yeah, I think you're acknowledging specific posts and dodging others purposefully.

VOTE: B7 vote Elsa Jay

This is weak

Agree actually
I’d been townreading Taly before this for having strong analysis but maybe I was doing so too easily
I mean I still townlean Taly for pushing a lot of the right buttons at the right times but this vote is not stellar

Pine could be scum but I doubt he got scum in both games so there's town motivation in that reaction test regardless. Certain people fell for it and in xy/pers XY pings me more

Can you talk more about the difference between Xyzzy and Persivul here?

Because teasing my friends entertains me.

Cool story. However, given that we've never (to my recollection and your user profile) played a game together or significantly interacted before, I don't buy it.

Quoting to remind myself of this interaction later

[Irrelephant11]

Re: 152
I continue to agree with xyzzy on the highest EV way to play this setup (lynch scummiest player in both games) especially given “play one at a time” is showing itself to be very hard, partially because holidays
Re: my point about Maki being a stretch - true, probably, but I still wanted to point it out in case that’s what it was
Agree that 87 kinda sounds like BS

[Irrelephant11]

Because teasing my friends entertains me.

Cool story. However, given that we've never (to my recollection and your user profile) played a game together or significantly interacted before, I don't buy it.

I'm Maria you dingbat <3

Oh interestingggggf

We Maria's got to stick together, right?

VOTE: B7 Xyzzy

Why are you voting xyzzy?

I have decided to extend the deadline for 2 days. Prods will also not be going out until the 26th. Anyone against this motion -- speak now, etc.

Thanks mod

Pine tell me what I'm doing wrong here. Why is xyzzy voting me?

Are you voting xyzzy because you don’t know why he’s voting you?

[Irrelephant11]

My agenda this game is to make sure I win both games for town. If I must focus on Bird, my goal is to be sure we don't out the cop and doctor, so that tommorow we can have 3 people cleared and auto-win it with a cleared vt, doctor, and macho cop.

I like bird more for the simple fact we get a huge safety net in comparison, so yeah, my agenda is pretty dang clear.

This is probably the best post you’ve made in terms of discussing ideal play
I don’t scumread your desire to have two separate lynches now I guess

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa can you talk more about why you want more people around D2?
For example, what’s the difference in your mind between lynching Player A who flips scum and Player B who flips vt as compared to double-lynching Player C who flips both scum and vt?

[Irrelephant11]

Lol @ “old fashioned”
I sort of see your point about knowing more D2 about Player A and Player B’s alignments after flipping 1/2 of each of them, but there’s still no guarantee that (for example) the scummy player who flipped town in one game is definitely scum in the other game I.e. it might take to long to learn we need to re evaluate if we make mistakes

I guess I’m not sure which I’d rather at this point

I need to reread Maki, the Maria reveal is interesting

[Irrelephant11]

@Taly I think your “Elsa is ignoring some posts” case is actually pretty well-founded, but in isolation “it seems like you’re ignoring posts” doesn’t seem like all that strong of a *scum* case (since town ignore posts sometimes too - which is what’s frustrating you now)

B7 vote: Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah I noticed Maki’s no lynch vote too but when I traced it back to its source it was clearly RVS (unmoved because Maki has agreed to focus on Bird for now)

[Irrelephant11]

Why Maki? @taly
@maki what do you think of Persivul scumreading me for wanting him to explain his scumread of me? Like??

[Irrelephant11]

I’ve regretted not following my gut D1 in my past few games

double vote: elsa jay

[Irrelephant11]

Bird vote: Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

What about my not knowing you were the doctor makes me scum?
What about my not knowing you were the doctor makes me scum in both games?
Why did you claim already?

I had a different player i thought was doctor. Does that affect how you read my scumread of you?

[Irrelephant11]

I didn’t make you do anything, I was only the second vote
But I guess I see your point about lolhammering? If you think I’m scum then scum wouldn’t be able to lolhammer, though. And if you think I’m town then your votes on me make no sense
If you actually play intentionally petty whenever you feel your own actions are someone else’s fault this will probably be our last game together

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE: Elsa in Carbon because I read the votecount wrong
Not ready to decide either lynch

[Irrelephant11]

We’ve been “playing Bird first” so I glanced at the VC very quickly and thought the first half was Bird
And since we weren’t really “playing Carbon” I ignored the second half, thinking there weren’t Elsa votes there (I was confused that there was only one Bird vote on Elsa, too - I thought there had been more there)

I admit low effort but I don’t think it makes sense to assume I’m scum for my mistake


Elsa, if Pine is preparing to cc you’re thinking he’ll leave you alive?
I don’t know what’s making anyone townread Persivul here.

Pedit: I’m very confused where these varied assumptions are coming from, Elsa

[Irrelephant11]

Can’t decide for sure but thinking the C14 wagon speed on Elsa is town-indicative for him, even as his confusing claims and assumptions don’t feel like a town perspective on the game

Glad I could get everyone moving again though

[Irrelephant11]

?????
What about it is garbage?
Case me.

There is 100% scum on my wagon at this point; no one has a case on me except “your mistaken vote must come from scum”

[Irrelephant11]

For all intents and purposes, I think Pers just tried to hammer me in Carbon but Ele unvoted.

Pers, I know Doctor - Scum is a possibility, but what makes you think it's the case? Why vote me in Carbon?

Wow I didn’t even notice that at first! I think you’re definitely right

[Irrelephant11]

C14 vote: Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa, mind unvoting me in Bird? I would like to not be quickhammered and if possible I would like to not claim

[Irrelephant11]

bird vote: xyzzy

[Irrelephant11]

Oh right, thanks
Xyzzy’s “this is L-1” freaked me out

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa can you explain why you think Pine will be cc’ing your doctor claim D2, given your certainty you will be nightkilled?

[Irrelephant11]

For all intents and purposes, I think Pers just tried to hammer me in Carbon but Ele unvoted.

Wow I didn’t even notice that at first! I think you’re definitely right

C14 vote: Persivul

1. As noted, my p-edit shows I knew I wasn't hammering.

2. Even if you thought I was, you of all people shouldn't see that as sus after our last game. Do you remember writing a post in a mafia discussion thread about quick hammers in which you noted that I skillfully used a quick hammer as town, it led to a scum lynch the next day, and we went on to win the game?

1. Not sure if I should just take your word for it (like yes the pedit shows you knew it wasn’t a hammer but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t your intention to hammer and the formatting of your post makes it seem like you *were* trying to hammer
2. But this is a very good point

Hardcore skimming, but I hardclaim not the Doctor.

Well then the hard shade at me makes even less sense unless you are scum here.

Eh there are other explanations... I don’t think Pine is scum for this alone, though I personally agree his vote is bad.

That c14 vote count is something alright. No comment

Why are you still voting no lynch? Is that something you actually want?

[Irrelephant11]

Taly you should move both your votes

[Irrelephant11]

Actually, the Maki vote might be okay
But you should place the other vote somewhere

[Irrelephant11]

I can move my votes too. *wink*

Yeah, you should

[Irrelephant11]

C14 vote: Maki

@everyone we have less than a day

[Irrelephant11]

Trying really hard to find time for this game today and failing
I’ll C14 lunch any of {Persivul, Maki, or Elsa} before deadline
I’ll B7 vote and of {Persivul, xyzzy, idk there’s not really a third person here but sheeting my townreads maybe I’d vote Pine}

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like it’s pretty likely you saved Maki, Elsa
Which means I think me/Elsa/Maki are the three double-towns, or there’s a double-scum and a fourth double-town out there... hm
I would not be super surprised if xyzzy was doublescum, given his strong focus on mechanics and presence on Elsa’s wagon

I need to remind myself what’s going on here, the two games thing was hard enough to keep track of before that long night phase

[Irrelephant11]

Nice that the two C14 deadtowns are still itt

[Irrelephant11]

I would not be super surprised if xyzzy was doublescum, given his strong focus on mechanics and presence on Elsa’s wagon

*their strong focus. Sorry xyzzy!

[Irrelephant11]

I agree Taly is very likely scum in Bird at this point from votecount and claims, but I’d rather we didn’t rush to lynch him. It’d be nice to have the time to make sure bussing is as unlikely as it seems to be. Though with two PRs maybe I shouldn’t even really question it, bussing would indeed be pretty dumb

Taly what makes you confident enough to clear me in C14?
Based on the last page alone I wouldn’t be surprised at a Taly/Persivul C14 team, actually

[Irrelephant11]

Well actually I would be surprised if Taly was double scum, so maybe I take that last part back

[Irrelephant11]

Unless we have a C14 guilty I feel like Maki and Elsa should probably have outsize influence on the C14 lynch, I am not much better than random at lylo

[Irrelephant11]

Lol
VOTE: B7 Taly
That’s L-1

[Irrelephant11]

Interesting. Taly votes for me in the OTHER game as his OMGUS. Wondering now if he’s scum/scum

Wait
What? I don’t think that happened?

[Irrelephant11]

Cool

Lynch Taly now

(<3 Taly)

This

Also hardclaim C14 cop inno on Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Cool

Lynch Taly now

(<3 Taly)

This

Also hardclaim C14 cop inno on Persivul

!!!
*inno on Pine!
Lol inb4 scum picks me to cc

[Irrelephant11]

Current thought is xyzzy is scum. His play looks like it was made to avoid associations and get lynched imo
Best guess at partner is Persivul but maybe I just severely misread Taly D1??

Pedit: lol I thought you were serious for a second too

[Irrelephant11]

*and get lynches

[Irrelephant11]

But I doubt Pine and I will be the only two investigative claims
I dare scum to 1v1 me, last time I was in 5p lylo I had to figure out the 1v1 and was jealous of the townie in the 1v1 the whole tome

[Irrelephant11]

I mean there’s like no chance that we go this whole game day without a scum cc
@Persivul
It’s just mechanically obvious

If Taly has also claimed cop in the scum pt then I bet scum is mafia and not werewolves is all that that means? I think that makes sense.
Regardless xyzzy and Persivul both seem overeager to lynch me here. I guess both can’t be scum at this point though, so my money is that i was right a page or two ago and it’s Persivul/Taly

[Irrelephant11]

Wait - if Taly and Xyzzy rolled doublescum then the pt thing is a lie anyway
Tricky, I was impressed at Taly for the early fake claim

Taly/xyzzy for sure, though yeah I’ll wait for Taly to confirm to make sure it’s not like... Xyzzy/Pine hoping for a quicklynch on the real seer or something

[Irrelephant11]

okay now that that's over Taly claimed C14 cop in our B7 PT so there is 100% scum in {irrelephant, Taly} and I got the vibe from that PT that he was telling the truth

When did he say this?

[Irrelephant11]

What are these “other factors?”

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t think I have ever fake claimed

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa you can still win B7, you should help us figure this out

Also FMPOV assuming Taly doesn’t call xyzzy a liar next time he enters the thread, the scumteam is xyzzy/Taly like 99.8% of the time
I don’t think that claim ever happened

[Irrelephant11]

Maki come back and talk sense into Persivul please, because apparently he’s town
He likes to scumread me for things that aren’t scummy for me and you seemed to at least acknowledge that last game day

[Irrelephant11]

Interesting that (again, assuming Taly stands by what xyzzy said about him claiming cop) xyzzy/Persivul is also a 1v1, and Pine becomes conftown
I wonder if xyzzy cared about who would be in the 1v1s, or if he just thought this would be more believable (than claiming cop himself) because “what are the odds they were both double scum???” (A fallacy, btw - the roles of one game have no bearing on the odds of the roles in the other game)

Taly is almost certainly about to be scumfirmed for me but I can also case the team more later, gotta go for a bit

Pedit: I meant C14
@elsa

[Irrelephant11]

What are these “other factors?”

1. Factors that had me scum reading you D1, although TBH as the day went by that was waning.

2. As noted, the foreshadowing of a CC that you gave today.

3. Taly's play today as scum was completely different from his play yesterday, which makes me wonder if he could have played so well yesterday if he were scum/scum. Seems like he must have had one town game going.

4. A personal tell from experience which I'm holding onto for a calendar day or two.

Before I say much more though I want to do a meta dive on scum games from both of you, particularly checking Pine's claim that a proactive fakeclaim is something you'd do as scum.

1. Well then this isn’t really a point

2. Pine did the same thing, apparently (see pagetop)

3. The first half of this sentence contradicts the second half; he’s playing weirdly because he knew he’d have to deal with claims today, imo

4. I mean okay

[Irrelephant11]

I think xyzzy picked me to cc after Pine and I both revealed because I’m an easier mislynch than Pine
I don’t remember anyone seriously scumreading Pine except Taly, whose reads don’t matter when it comes to getting a mislynch
Although theoretically Persivul can still be scum with Taly here, I would just be surprised by the early fake claim.

Actually let me think
Double scum Taly with Persivul as partner in C14 would have a 1/5 shot of sharing the B7 scum thread with the cop. Claiming cop has a 20% chance of immediately confirming to xyzzy that Taly is doublescum, with a good chance of either a D1 claim or a night kill flipping cop and showing it later in the game.
Yeah I guess the only way xyzzy is town here is if Taly and Persivul thought it was a good idea to let Taly die early for a greater chance of finding and killing the cop.

Okay so I still think it’s much more likely Taly’s partner is xyzzy and it’s all made up

[Irrelephant11]

I’m not absolutely sure about that, actually

[Irrelephant11]

oh, so we're using buzzwords to belittle any actual arguments I make now?

VOTE: C14 Pine

Taly is town
Would elaborate but my wife wants me to pay more attention to our guests

[Irrelephant11]

No, don’t claim
We have the votes
VOTE: C14 Pine

[Irrelephant11]

Yes, Taly, I agree
Read between the lines

[Irrelephant11]

Pine is always scum here, please hammer

[Irrelephant11]

If Persivul wants to bus, we can figure that out during the night
Please hammer

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: C14 Pine

[Irrelephant11]

I wish I could think to play this cool as seer

[Irrelephant11]

I played 4D chess with Taly and won

[Irrelephant11]

I’m good with scum pt release

[Irrelephant11]

I’m good with scum pt release

Yeah that's fine.

You'll see that we had a signal plan for the quick lynch, but Taly busted in on it. My heart was pounding for awhile there.

Same! I just went for it xD

[Irrelephant11]

Haha I thought you were pushing me to claim a little! With your “we can use claims to narrow both scum down to a group of three” talk
But I was always gonna claim this game day, 2 1v1s is better than 2 conftowns and a 2v1. Maybe I wouldn’t have claimed if we had hit a PR

[Irrelephant11]

My confbias weakness kicked in and I was like

"why does it matter to wait for

pers

if i cant literally see

xyzzy/Pine

as town"

Uh...how in the world did you continue to town read Irrel when he claimed to have your role in an open setup?

He thought I “read between the lines” like he told me to. I knew he was cop, so my claim looked to him like a deer trying to swap claims so when we hit scum they’d nightkill the wrong PR. I played up that he had figured out the puzzle and that your willingness to vote Pine was conftowned you

[Irrelephant11]

*seer

[Irrelephant11]

I mean my original plan was to just 1v1 Taly and win
But when he voted Pine I was like “lol change of plans”