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[LlamaFluff]

vote #44

for using a random number generator

[LlamaFluff]

vote #44

for using a random number generator

Oh? So you have a better method?

Personal choice for a random vote is to me much more useful. If you have a reason, no matter what it is, it is something. By saying that your vote is random, you are making sure that in no way you can be held accountable for it.

So personal vote > random number generator vote

[LlamaFluff]

Not true. This stage is random so if someone doesn't use a number generator they can also say it was completely random. Regardless of what method someone uses, it doesn't excuse them. Now if I had used a random number generator when there already was a bandwagon on someone or later then

their first post

ingame, I would agree with you. There are no reasons to vote for someone before you can get any information.

So random stage generator = random stage personal vote

Its probally a difference of opinions, but even if you say "vote player AAA" because he is first on the list. You can later say "hey, AAA was mafia, why did player BBB vote them day one and then jump a easy wagon?"

If you do "vote player AAA random number gen" you just can say "hey it was random" and not be tied to or held responsable for your D1 vote.

I feel that an "arbitrary" vote is better then a "random" vote

[LlamaFluff]

Personal choice for a random vote is to me much more useful. If you have a reason, no matter what it is, it is something. By saying that your vote is random, you are making sure that in no way you can be held accountable for it.

It looks like you are attacking #44, is my interpretation correct?

One of my irks is when people deliberately call their inital vote random when they make it, or use a random generator, so yes I am attacking him a bit.

This isnt intended to lynch him, but it definantly will generate discussion on the early part of the game, and let us see how other players react to casting their inital votes as this conversation is going on.

[LlamaFluff]

arbitrary or random

Yes, and to me they are two different things, and are to be treated differently

...let us see how other players react to casting their inital votes as this conversation is going on.

If you like.

Vote: LlamaFluff

- you're making far too much of a big deal out of it, I think.

Duley noted, when I challenge random votes, you decide not to random vote. Instead you vote the person challenging random votes compared to arbitrary ones. Therefore making an arbitrary vote... like I did.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, you are, in my opinion, getting quite overexcited over this. In the random voting stage, it is of absolutely no significance who you vote for, because of the fact that you are only doing going to keep the vote until somebody sparks conversation. Whether or not a person votes for a random person or uses a generator is of no significance.

Just to say it, to ME, I do not like it when someone takes the time to insist upon the fact that their vote was truely random. Most people pick out their D1 votes for arbitrary reasons, which I dont mind at all. When you feel the need to justify that your first vote was not up to you though, I do find that suspicious, and will vote accordingly.

[LlamaFluff]

I usually unvote after the first few votecounts (or in this case, the first few), but I'm pretty comfortable with my vote.

FOS:Dattebayo

just a bad hunch

Care to elaborate?

Oh, and;

EBWOP:
Llama isn't making it into a great lead and

[just]

wants to use it as a way to get reactions.

Fairly sure that's what I'm trying to do. Putting a second vote on at 7 to lynch is

not 'omg he's definitely scum',

it's more indicating where my suspicions lie, possibly

creating a bit of pressure as well shou.ld people agree with me and add a couple more.

First off, Dattebayo basically has it right. It is something that I feel strongly about, but it also is a great way to obtain reactions from people, much like FFB is doing with his selfvote.

Im not too sure these bolded parts line up too well. You first say you aren’t calling me a high suspect, then you continue by saying that you seem to want people to vote me. So my question to you: Am I scum? Why?

[LlamaFluff]

You first say you aren’t calling me a high suspect, then you continue by saying that you seem to want people to vote me.

Perhaps I could have been clearer, there:

I'm not saying more people should vote you

. I'm simply saying that a second vote won't create a huge amount of pressure on its own.

I don't think it's neccesarily pro-town intentions... 'Scummy' behaviour is often to try and make the metaphorical mountain out of a molehill, to exxagerate the importance of an insignificant thing in order to convince the town to lynch an innocent... I'm just following up on my initial lead. .. you're making far too much of a big deal out of it, I think…

To me this does not really sound like the words of someone who doesnt want support in their vote. Even a vote with no explaination signifies strong feeling towards a player, especially once we are out of the random stage which I belive your vote was the start of.

My inital vote as accomplished what it was intended to though at this point so I will

unvote

and

FoS Gojira and Gimbo

@Gimbo - You have been seemingly active but still far under the radar to me. Post 44 you start suspecting me and FFB which I find a bit interesting since you jump on both the people trying to stimulate discussion with odd moves, then in 54 you start suspecting Dattebayo for a hunch.

What are your opinions on me, FFB and Dattebayo now? And I want more then a hunch.

[LlamaFluff]

LlmaStuff is obvious scum, huge IGMEOY and also FlyingFoxBat, why are you voting for yourself?

Criticizing both people trying to get conversations going.

FOS:Dattebayo

just a bad hunch

A hunch based FoS with nothing to back it up

I feel like you are all fluff and no content. Its like the 3 of you are playing your little game within this game. But its not substantiated and this is how I play, I give out alot of FoSes, don't freak over it, if you do, its gonna be more than just a FoS, lol, it's gonna be my vote you're getting.

This was unusual to me. You first say im not posting content, I am. I am getting discussion started on the game in my way. Then you accuse us of playing a game within a game, which I honestly do not understand. If my interpretation is correct, you are upset that we are getting a conversation going on something that you don’t belive merits a conversation and therefore is distracting? If that’s true, you could either try and get discussion going yourself, or just join ours. We aren’t excluding you maliciously.

Finally, is that a threat of an OMGUS vote at the end there? It seems like you just said “if you don’t like the way I play Im going to vote you.”

You are making a lot of accusational moves with nothing to back them up. You are criticizing the people who are trying to get this game going. You are threatening me with a vote purely for disagreeing with your FoS heavy playstyle. Its time for you to give some indepth reasoning to back up the FoSs you have been giving out with cases.

And besides, you said it yourself

Hi, I'm scum, kill me now.

vote Gimbo

[LlamaFluff]

dude and dudetes, its a fucking joke! lol, if i really was scum, would i say that? Jesus you guys.

WIFOM

at least 1 of LlamaFluff, #44 and Slain Hayes is scum..wow never seen anyone so eager to lynch. Like I wrote 'hey ya'll I'm scum' and suddenly, 3 people JUMPED onto my bandwagon, lol

Heh… this is actually pretty funny. One of your early voters HAS to be scum, they just HAVE to. While 44 and SH really didn’t explain their vote too well, I actually made a bit of a case against you, nice to see that you took the time to read my post and respond.

[LlamaFluff]

Yea yea whatever, but seriously, you guys really ODed. I just thought it'd be funny to see how people react and like people going WTF? did he just say that? lol, anyways yea, didn't know you guys will actually take it seriously

and again, I ask for a response to the points I made in post 77

[LlamaFluff]

GIMBO! ANSWER MY POINTS MADE OUT IN POST 77!

[LlamaFluff]

^ that is how i play, when i see something i don't like, i give FoS. That's my style, there's nothing to 'answer' cause you didn't ask any in-depth question.

well I made some interpretations of what you had been saying, are you saying that those are all correct?

Also, now that you are giving all these FoSs, are you going to back them up with anything more then a hunch, WIFOM or OMGUS?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm thinking Gimbo is funny scum. I'm prepared to gamble on it being so, at least to the point of being willing to put him at L-2 and wanting a claim.

Unvote, vote: Gimbo

Claim, please. And make it good.

Oh, and if Gimbo turns out not to be scum, #44 totally is. >_>

Really? You want someone claiming at L-2? On page 4? Really?

Also you are willing to gamble this early? Really?

And Gimbo town means 44 scum? Really?

I still want Gimbo at least responding to my posts with more then "lolz scum", but I think this is a better lead for the time being. You are trying to pressure Gimbo into an early claim and this is far from the time to gamble.

unvote
vote cavebear
HoS Gimbo

[LlamaFluff]

Really really. I don't really care if he claims now or at L-1, or if he does it on page 4 or 6... But I do want him to claim. Then, if I'm not happy, I imagine I'd like to lynch him, too.

Claiming shouldnt be done untill L-1 really. Wagons shift, new suspects come up. A claim outs a power role and hurts the town

Really. I'm very willing to gamble on day one. I'd be much less willing to gamble later on. Relatively early or late on day one doesn't make all that much difference... Or, rather, it could, if the day drags on and on and on, but meh. This is a fast game. Why wait?

You never are supposed to outright gamble in this game. You are supposed to take all the information you have and use that to make an informed decision. If "Gimbo said he was scum" is all the information you have and you want it to lynch him. I think thats enough information to qualifiy you for lynch discussion as well.

Really. Well, I don't have any kind of confirmation, obviously, but yeah, I'm actually feeling pretty good about that call.

Why? C'mon give me some theorys at least, a hunch isnt worth anything if you cant back it up with some reasoning.

Time is a matter of perspective. Tell me, when is it not too early, and when is the time to gamble?

Once again, you never gamble, you make the most informed decision you can.

Yeah, L-3 probably isn't enough to make you claim, so we'll just wait with that a little, shall we? Then we can see if you're a copordoc. I personally highly doubt it. Anyway, it's not a question of "liking" your style of play, it's a matter of your style of play being scummy.

Fair enough, how about a case on him though? And not just a copy/paste of mine.

Im happy with my vote right now, you seem way to eager to get Gimbo lynched and are pushing him to claim already. We arent playing 24 hour days, we still have three weeks to do this.

[LlamaFluff]

Now then, since you're voting me, how about you present your case on me? Do you think I'm scum, do you think I should be lynched?

Yes, at this point I think you are scum, you should be lynched for that reason, and here is my case:

However, I'd argue that there's

nothing wrong with claiming at L-2

in a 12 player game with no dead (or even more in larger games) but as the number of players shrinks, so does the margin. The wagon might very well shift though, I'll grant you that, so it might have been

slightly premature

. I hope we'll get a chance to get back to it, on a slightly more stable wagon.

1) The pressuring Gimbo to claim. I still see no reason for him to be claiming when you see his rap sheet and the fact that he was at L-2. I don’t think anyone, scum or town, would hammer for what happened. Bolded parts though make me feel uneasy.

You initially say there is no problem claiming at L-2, I disagree completely with that, but difference of opinions does not merit a vote. You later say that your push from him to claim was premature, which goes against your thought that L-2 is where someone is supposed to claim.

Hypothetical situation – You are Gimbo at L-2 and have a role. Would you of claimed?

Since you very rarely have access to all the information in a given case, making an informed decision really IS a gamble. You play the odds, weigh different scenarios against each other, but in the end, you have to guess.

2) Your persistence with the Gimbo lynch being a gamble. It may be a terminology barrier, but this really throws up warning flags to me. A gamble implies an uninformed decision where we really don’t have a grasp as to what is occurring. Instead we are supposed to be going through the thread and finding the people we belive are scum, and supporting it with logic. Hardly a gamble.

3) The 44/Gimbo relationship. I don’t see it, I don’t buy it. To me it feels like you are trying to set up a 44 lynch for tomorrow. The only thing that 44 has against him right now is that his vote falls in the WIFOM category.

4) Your vote for Gimbo. This is based on horrible logic from what I saw. It consisted of the “Im scum” post, and WIFOM deductions. You conclude that because it’s a joke, it has to be from scum, then you immediately say “but im not sure”

Continuing you criticize him for overreacting, which I think is expected since he hit L-2 mainly from a joke. You also seem to have OMGUS reasons for voting him since he called you scum and insulted you. You again end this with a very weird statement of

Based mostly on his reactions, I'd say he's either scum who did something he thought would be harmless which lead to this freaking-out of sorts, or he's a jumpy townie who did pretty much the same. As I don't really see anyone scummier right now, I'm happy with arguing for his lynch, until a) that happens or b) something else comes along to grab my attention.

This once again says that you are voting him for WIFOM reasons, you just decide on the scum side of them. Then again you wrap up your line with a very scummy sentence. You basically have laid out a case against Gimbo, but in the end say, you can change my mind though if you come up with someone better. That does not sound like someone who is pushing for a lynch, that sounds like someone who is stalling and doesn’t want to lead a lynch.

I also like 44s question – What does a vanilla town claim coming from Gimbo do for you?

[LlamaFluff]

Okay, I am going to calm down and say I shouldn't have done the whole 'hey I'm scum thing', but you have to understand, scum or not, being at

L-2 freaks everyone out

and considering that I know I'm innocent, it'll suck for me to die just because I am not likeable. With that said yes I admit that my play is scummy,

in fact in nearly every game I've played, people say that I am doing something scummy

. That is my style, so i understand if people misinterpret that. To be honest, I don't have a solid case against anyone for scum but i trust that among those who voted for me, there are at least some townies who'll think twice about my play in this game and realize that while

I might be crazy, but I am not scum

.

appeal to emotion much?

Anyways, who is scum? You are getting near lynch and its time for you to lay out a case that transcends "they are on my wagon". Town needs to scumhunt, and I think its time for you to seriously start doing just that.

[LlamaFluff]

What's your current position? Do you still want Gimbo to claim?

Preferably, but it's clearly not going to happen now, so I don't pushing the issue would be very helpful.

So you still want Gimbo to claim, at L-3? Why don’t we just do a massclaim right now! That’s going to be just as effective of having people claim whenever they get a few votes. Also you say you want him to claim, but don’t want to take action that would result in that claim. To me it sounds like you really are just waffling on the whole issue.

You misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with claiming at L-2, but it might have been a bit

early in the day

to ask him to claim; it might have been a good idea to get a couple of more wagons running. There's nothing contradictory about it.

So when in the day is it RIGHT to claim at L-2. To me the answer there should be never. But in all seriousness, when would have been the “right” time for him to claim to you? After a page of being L-2? At page 10? When he gets a FoS?

Hypothetical situation – You are Gimbo at L-2 and have a role. Would you of claimed?

Probably something for the mafia discussion board. Short answer: "I don't know; it depends."

Why are you pressuring him to make a claim when you aren’t even sure yourself that you would of done it? To me if you want Gimbo claiming at L-2, you should also be claiming at L-2 if the situation came up, not going to the discussion board about it. But ill humor you, what does it depend on?

Really. I'm very willing to gamble on day one. I'd be much less willing to gamble later on.

Gambling is about taking a risk. Information doesn't really have anything to do with it, except that it's not gambling if you have access to ALL information. FWIW I never (or very, very rarely) gamble on pure chance. I hate random lynches and I never play the lottery ... I'm a huge fan of logic and wouldn't do anything without it, but it will only get you so far. Apparently you don't consider it a "gamble" to, for instance, vote for the person you think is most likely to be scum... But in the end, that's all it is:

most likely

. There are odds involved, which means risks, so it's a gamble.

Those two stances seem different to me. The term gambling seems to of taken on a different meaning, going from high chance to informed decision.

----

@Tommy – You are raising suspicion of Cavebear, while saying you think Gorjia is townish. You still are not voting though, is there a particular reason for that?

@skitzer - What is your logic behind unconditional hammer if Gimbo claims?

[LlamaFluff]

hey ya'all, what do you want me to explain? I'm all over the place, most likely, I don't even know what I did, haha

Well lets start with the basics; Who do you suspect and why?

Please dont run to OMGUS or WIFOM cases here either. Just lay out the reasons why your top suspect is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, I would hammer Gimbo if he claims. There is plenty of reasoning that way.

I dont get this really. An unconditional hammer really for one seems like an anti-town stance. What confuses me though is you are not voting Gimbo. This was a few pages back (142) so that could of changed, but you were already voting SH when you posted this.

So, does you opinion on Gimbo still lie at Gimbo = scum and why an unconditional hammer if he does claim?

[LlamaFluff]

Now Slaine and Llama have made a point of going after Gimbo on the basis that Gimbo FOS'd Dattebayo on a hunch, but as far as I can tell their core assumption there is flawed. I'd be interested to hear what Gimbo says about what he meant in post 54.

You are off on my reasons for voting Gimbo here, while the FoS on Dat was part of the reason that I voted him, if you go back and read my case, there is much more then that in my reasoning for voting him.

Also what core assumptions are flawed? Making a FoS on a hunch to me isnt a good move, there is always something to cause that hunch, even if you dont realize it right off the bat.

And

mod

im gone with limited at best access for the next few days

[LlamaFluff]

Well looking at what has happened recently, I am immediately struck with the following question; Why arent 44 and Corin voting?

Both players are zeroed in on a suspect it seems, yet neither are too willing to vote at this point. I would either like an explaination for the no votes, or a vote from these two.

Anywho though

Hi, all. Sorry for not posting recently. I've been busy lately, but I should be starting to post again.
At this point,

I do indeed think that Gimbo is showing several signs of scuminess.

It isn't his initial "joke" that he made that makes me suspicious of him, but his reaction to being put under pressure, and his failure to point out who he is suspicious of for awhile, or to answer any other questions until he has been asked multiple times.
Additionally, Phoebus' huge post points out a lot of things that are suspicious about several of the players. Phoebus did indeed redirect my attention to posts 120 and 121, and it is because of this that

it is plausible that there are 1 or 2 scum on Gimbo's wagon. Out of all of those people, dattebayo has indeed behaved the most suspicious.

I will reread these posts in a little bit of time, and then cast my vote.

Well what is it? You agree that Gimbo looks scummy but you think his wagon looks scummy, with emphisis on Dat. So is Gimbo town or is this scum bussing?

I would also like to hear and case with a vote from SH sometime soon.

[LlamaFluff]

Simply put enough is enough.

You have been contridicting yourself this whole time, you are trying to pull up every possible case on anyone to try and get this wagon off you, you are just panicing trying to do anything possible to get this wagon off you right now, but nothing that really is too pro-town.

Deadline is coming up fast, so lets try this

unvote
vote: Slaine Hayes

Thats L-2 by my count

Lets hear a case on who scum is. Lets here why you arent scum

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to start with

vote #44

, a town flip on him would be a surprise to me at this point

Post 217 is ugly, there are moments of willing ignorance and now obvious framing. All emphisis mine

About phoebus's case against Slaine:

He has a point about his lack of reasoning for his vote on Gimbo.

He only later said in addition to claiming scum that it was his rampant FOSing that also led to him putting the vote down.

I think he's just throwing it in there to make it sound like he wasn't bandwagoning.

This wasn't the only case either. He also bandwagoned right after Gimbo's vote on Cavebear, but

Dattebayo came to his defense

, saying two minutes wasn't enough time for Slaine to see that Gimbo voted.

I'm starting to doubt that.

I don't like his reaction either.

He at first said there was no explanation needed,

soon after I made my vote for the scum claim.

He later said he did it for the scum claim

and added in for the FOSs, when there was only one handed out. Now he says

He didn't unclaim being scum, so if that was the reason for my vote, wouldn't I still be voting for him.

Obviously there's inconsistency with his reasoning of the vote

. He then says phoebus is singling him out, forgetting Phoebus's massive post about Slaine, Dattebayo and myself. He also pointed out Llama, which phoebus hasn't mentioned but I don't know why he would at this point.

We then later see Gojira possibly defending Slaine in post 197

where he once again blows out of proportion someone's post. First Llama, now Gimbo's use of the word "bad hunch."

I still don't like Gimbo, but I'm liking Slaine and Gojira less.

Unvote

In this entire post, 44 rips on Slaine for being scummy. He wraps it up however by saying "Gimbo Slaine and Gorjira are all scummy", with an unvote of Gimbo. There was no vote of Slaine at this point, after a post of agreement of how scummy he was.

Also during this post, 44 point out how Gorjia and Dat have a possible connection to Slaine. At this point I am highly inclined to belive that 44 was trying to have a precursor to a case on these two players, who already were deemed slightly scummy.

A recap of the 44 vote/FoS history is - Phoebus (16), Gimbo (78), unvote (217). That was it.

During the assult on Gimbo however, 44 pressured Cavebear and Phoebus, yet no FoS or vote appeared for those two players. We now know Cave was cit, and can make a safe assumption in Phoebus being town.

44 also seemed to deliberately avoid the Slaine case as much as possible as the day came to a close, he seemed to agree with him being scum however. He just insisted on us waiting for a claim, and even criticizes me for asking him for reasoning for his unwillingness to even put him at L-2.

I really dont see 44 being town here.

[LlamaFluff]

Wow. That didn't take long. I'm not mafia but you still won't like my role. Since I see no way of getting myself out of this, I might as well put everything out in the open now.

I am the serial killer. If you want to hear my views on the game, I'll be around before the hammer. And sorry for killing your vig.

I call BS here, Tommy vigged Cavebear, almost 100% sure on that.

Remember in 217; The scummy were Gimbo, Datt and Slaine. I see no way SK 44 decides kill Tommy.

I would hammer here

[LlamaFluff]

I have night kill immunity.

Then that means our only option is to lynch you. This increases the chance of you actually being an SK, but why would we ever pass an opportunity to lynch a anti-town role D2 when there is no chance of us being at lylo?

[LlamaFluff]

Well yeah, I wasn't trying to get out of a lynch by claiming SK! This is getting weird.

Well only time ive seen this is claim as town in a 2 town 1 maf 1 SK ending, but this really is odd. Ive never delt with a situation like this, so given that you are calling people scummy is something im not quite sure if I should take with a grain of salt or not.

You still are the right kill, having an SK is a liability for us, but I really dont know what to make of this in the big picture.

[LlamaFluff]

Well I guessed Gimbos role wrong, I was expecting something around - "Post limitation, you must drink one (1) Red Bull before each post"

Anyways though, a clean sweap with four anti town roles is freaking sweet. Although I still really dont get why I was killed for bringing down 44, SK != scum and I didnt gracefully vote SH. Great game anyways though.