Mini 2079 - Guns & Roses [Game Over]

[Cephrir]

HC get your ass in here.

[popsofctown]

Xyzzy's misLynch was not facile reasons to the point I would sr someone for being offwagon

[hitogoroshi]

I am sneaking on before work because lots of posts happened but I don't have that much time because it's actually going to be a really busy day at work and I can't come in late, so just dashing off quick highlights and will maybe go back on things that needed more detail this evening

Does that make her look townier to you?

yes

In addition to being an awful analogy, this is also misleading (it implies that I joined a mafia game only to not play mafia, which isn't at all what I'm doing), it doesn't really seem relevant (it's a very belated playstyle criticism that you've already acknowledged can be misguided town), and it is extremely convenient to a scum agenda (it looks like the perfect excuse to transition me from the town spot where you had me to somewhere low enough to mislynch).

wanting you to be scum is not the same as thinking you're scum

IF I SAID THERE WERE SECRET REASONS NOT TO DO THE HASCHEL THING WOULD YOU BELIEVE ME?

I DON'T EVEN FULLY BELIEVE ME, BUT I HAVE THIS FEELING IN MY BONESSSSSS

AND ALSO THERE'S SCUM BLOOD TO BE SPILLED. CUT THE TREES.

I just feel like Haschel's first effort post has a pretty significant chance to really tell on his slot and I guess I'm just not comfortable weighing his slot vs. Pine's without having seen that post. fair to call me a pansy for it tbh

THE RULES ARE SIMPLE FOLKS. IF SOMEONE ASKS FOR DEATH, NEVER DENY THEM.

yeahhh okay you were right to be adamant and I was wrong to be indecisive Pine's just scum. Can we chill a day or two for the haschel post anyway tho, I think he's a kind of sensible buddy insofar as Pine could have just lurked and hoped haschel did a really bad post that I hated otherwise. I am fine if this means I don't get any town credit for the Pine lynch, I am hito and I am gonna tell on my role PM regardless

[Haschel Cedricson]

Sorry, two nights ago I suddenly had to take my wife to the hospital and then yesterday I just didn't have the spoons for Mafia (unrelated to the hospital; wife is fine).

On my way to work but I can get caught up there.

[Something_Smart]

yes

It strikes me as an exceedingly easy tactic to use as scum, though. Like you're essentially getting someone else to vote who you want and you're getting them to specifically accept full responsibility for it.

[implosion]

i will - begrudgingly - admit that pine may perhaps in fact be scum

hito's 539 is missing the point of what I said. It isn't about the fact that he was voting a lurker, it's about the fact that he was idling his vote there and doing nothing with it after criticizing me for doing exactly that earlier and criticizing others for doing the equally useless act of not voting. And throw in him giving me a "temporary pass" just for having voted someone today. It just doesn't look like town thinking through whether something will come from town or scum. it's scum looking for easy heuristics to give reads out based on. S_S's 543 is also good. This response:

wanting you to be scum is not the same as thinking you're scum

does not really disambiguate what his actual opinions are.

[popsofctown]

Hypocrisy is not a scumtell

[Pine]

Implo y u do me the betray

[implosion]

if you are town please play the game pine

[implosion]

hypocrisy in general isn't a scumtell; hito's actions are scummy not because they're hypocritical but because they show that he's not actually putting reasoned thought into how he's deciding whether to call people town or scum, he's just using simple metrics that let him shove people in buckets.

[implosion]

Also, I'm specifically not asking to be saved. I am comfortable with dying here, but I do require that my views be taken seriously. LLD in particular is classically scum here.

if you get lynched, as town, you're just a dead townie. Your reads don't suddenly become sacrosanct because you flipped town. *especially* if you got lynched. Otherwise we'd be blindly killing alisae's scumreads today. You know this. I know you know this.

"LLD is on notice" -> "i'm comfortable with voting LLD here" -> "LLD is classically scum here" is not going to convince anyone if you do flip green.

[implosion]

I guess I should just sit idly and wait for haschel to bless us with his wisdom hmm

[implosion]

Hypocrisy is not a scumtell

What is your current overall take on hito?

Do you think he's done anything he couldn't fake as scum?

[Pine]

Fine, what do you want me to say? I’ve made my cases, they were ignored. I PoE’d my Towncases, they were also ignored. What, do you want me to beg? Roll over and compromise-vote for someone I think is Town?

I’ll try to be less bitchy after I eat some dinner, but I feel this match is mostly being played with emotion instead of reason, and that’s not productive in a Mafia game.

[popsofctown]

Hito is kinda scummy

[Pine]

No he isn’t. Go back to the scumthread.

[implosion]

I wouldn't exactly call what you've done so far "cases". You've given a couple arguments here and there. And you're using emotion just as much as everyone else, and calling it unproductive while engaging in it is... unproductive.

Idk. If you're town I just want you to not just bite the lynch. But you just biting the lynch seems like a pretty sensible thing to do here as scum so :hitoshrug: (oh my hito is actually in this game uhhhhh)

Alright here.

No he isn’t. Go back to the scumthread.

Why. You've given two lines of justification for this and it was during a catchup post and you haven't mentioned him since then and neither of those lines has any real depth and I've given like 4 paragraphs arguing he's scum and you're complaining that people aren't using logic and argh

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wouldn't exactly call what you've done so far "cases". You've given a couple arguments here and there. And you're using emotion just as much as everyone else, and calling it unproductive while engaging in it is... unproductive.

Idk. If you're town I just want you to not just bite the lynch. But you just biting the lynch seems like a pretty sensible thing to do here as scum so :hitoshrug: (oh my hito is actually in this game uhhhhh)

Alright here.

No he isn’t. Go back to the scumthread.

Why. You've given two lines of justification for this and it was during a catchup post and you haven't mentioned him since then and neither of those lines has any real depth and I've given like 4 paragraphs arguing he's scum and you're complaining that people aren't using logic and argh

IT'S CAUSE HE'S SCUM AND HE AIN'T GOT SHIT MY DUDE

[implosion]

yeah yeah i want haschel to do things and i want to delude myself into thinking he's town gimme a bit

(side note: pine + hito is not a team that i see anything precluding)

[Cephrir]

Also, I'm specifically not asking to be saved. I am comfortable with dying here, but I do require that my views be taken seriously. LLD in particular is classically scum here.

if you get lynched, as town, you're just a dead townie. Your reads don't suddenly become sacrosanct because you flipped town. *especially* if you got lynched. Otherwise we'd be blindly killing alisae's scumreads today. You know this. I know you know this.

"LLD is on notice" -> "i'm comfortable with voting LLD here" -> "LLD is classically scum here" is not going to convince anyone if you do flip green.

:goodposting:

[hitogoroshi]

It strikes me as an exceedingly easy tactic to use as scum, though. Like you're essentially getting someone else to vote who you want and you're getting them to specifically accept full responsibility for it.

oh ya to be clear LLD bullying people on to Pine wagon is 100% the only play she can do here regardless of alignment. I just meant that tonally the way she talked to implosion makes her holistic gamestate view feel more coherent

I guess I should just sit idly and wait for haschel to bless us with his wisdom hmm

this seems like an unnecessarily catty dig when you seem to exactly be mirroring my thought process that Pine is probably just scum but it's worth hearing what's happening with Haschel first.

:hitoshrug: (oh my hito is actually in this game uhhhhh)

just copy paste it from my title that's what it's there for

I almost never meta games I wasn't in cause it's a waste of time, but I think I might meta s_s to see if this explicit super-hard defense (like his last 12 posts or something?) is something he would do for a scumbuddy buddy. s_s do you keep an index of games anywhere or should I just go through your recent threads.

other than that, I think a pine red flip makes haschel look worse and implo look better. cyanjet is interesting because pine -> cyanjet looks pretty buddy but cyanjet -> pine really doesn't right? unless this was like a n1 premeditated thing to try to get cyan to the endzone?

[hitogoroshi]

how come everyone posts when I'm asleep and then have to go to work, but when it's the weekend I go a full twenty four hours without the content I crave

I'm doing top dome read summaries just so there's shit to talk about. rules are that I give reads on everyone but without ever looking back on the thread. so you can see how it's all indexed in my brain but I do not guarantee factual accuracy

Pine: probably scum! I was unsure at the pops -> LLD hop, because while I thought it was way too quick a capitulation on pops (and calling everyone off-wagon "idiots" without looking for scum among them is a tell of some repute), working with someone else to compromise on your #2 suspect does sort of jive with a townie just trying to have an impact. But his surrender is real scum crocodile tears, especially in a world where there's so much opportunity on the table FOR people to listen to him. it's a weird situation where I'm happy flippin Pine on his own merits but I just don't like how little happened today and it feels like there's still something to find. especially with...

Haschel: who knows?? his sudden insistence to question Pine felt like a put-on when I had warned like five times that I was gonna flip the wagon before takeoff instead of trusting other people to do it, and his questions were just "explain your case on pops" when xyzzy lynch was inevitable - it's not like someone is going to post something damning with a question like "why's pops scummy", especially because if he can't think of a good answer he'll just lurk for a few hours until thread locks. then the lurking has me somewaht suspicious on the ground that it's a lot easier to hard reset as town than scum, especially with the prod dodge post vs a total blackout. it's like a force multiplier without a sign at this point - I think I could swing pretty strongly one way or the other on haschel depending on what he posts. and even though Pine went pretty close to flat-out claiming scum I have this horrible picture in my imagination where Pine's town and Haschel is just stone cold running out the clock waiting for us to ml and know that he might out himself if he tries to fake genuine reads while he's waiting.

LLD: probably town! to be honest I was second-guessing myself a little when she was immediately 0 to 100 on Pine, it did seem a little bit like she was dodging a holistic view of the game state to just tunnel one after the other (I think ceph said this at some point) but her fate posting actually helped in that I saw hints that it was all more coherent behind the scenes. also like, this time she's tunneling someone who's probably scum, lmao. ftr LLD would be willing to bus teammate Pine here but I don't think she does unless I go on first - busing is rough in this setup

ceph: locktown everyone knows it, zzz

pops: probably town! I mean he has been all over the place but he clearly really gives a shit and I think it would just be exhausting to fake all that as scum. it's pretty much 100% a tonal townread which is always a little dangerous, but like, it still feels really wrong to go popsward here. well I guess if pine red flips it's more than tonal no way pops goes that fuckin hard for a buddy.

cyan: pops is gonna scum read me for this but I'm actually pretty unsure on cyan here! I mean there was presumably pregame chat so scum could align their gun/rose choices, so like...someone could have just ghostwritten those posts for him or whatever. to be honest cyan + pine is starting to loom kind of large in my brain because it plausibly explains why Pine has never commented on his posts AND why Pine would be so quick to roll over here - if they just coached in n1 PT "cyan, just vote me really early because I think I'm going down tomorrow", it looks like this doesn't it? he had one genuinely good post that I don't exactly remember, but I am kind of skeeved about giving a forever pass to a person who almost never posts because "wow no player could ever fake that wide eyed innocence!!"

implo: probably town. d1 was a wash but his d2 has been a lot more involved, especially his migration on the Pine nk thing.

s_s: unsure. He looked reasonably town during D1, and then there was that thing starting off D2 where it seemed like he was really trying to foist off vote responsibility, and now he's like outrageously defending Pine for all he's worth without any alternative? But it's also true that the foist responsibility thing is only a scumtell if Pine is town, and the defense is only really a scumtell if Pine is scum, so they can't BOTH count against him?? I don't know. for all of the posts out of him there's very few solid commitments, and now we have one in "Pine is town" and it's to a totally superlative degree relative to anything else he has posted and I don't know how to parse it. like I said I think I'm gonna have to do a meta dive to get a better sense of how often s_s has gone totally to bat for town reads and what alignments he was when he did it

okay that's everybody! someone else do some posts now!!

[popsofctown]

I will post with energy and gusto when I am not trying to play a magic tournament through an ear infection.

I scumread hitogoroshi's uncertainty about cyanjet's slot.

ghostwritten pregame posts

seriously?

[hitogoroshi]

okay not like literatlly ghostwritten but as in, following a playbook from a buddy. I think it's totally reasonable although now that I am allowed to check the fp, I guess not with Pine/cyan specifically because it would have been two first-timers in the thread N0

[Cephrir]

I cant imagine remembering that much about the game

I apparently need to study this for my next scumgame since no one ever even questions me!