Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Replica]

Rough ordering of players for me, scum to town. More because it's a good thought exercise to challenge me with than anything else:

Scum
-------
Nacho
Chara
Chemist
Psyche
Amrun
Sujimichi
Hectic
Farkran
Alimdia
Sherlock
-------
Town

The bottom is a weak cluster of townleans, the only one I'd call a real scumlean is Nacho, Chara I'm still skeptical of but not to the point I'd lynch them anytime soon. I was neutral on almost all of his posting this game but that Chemist read was absolutely awful. I also read a bit of the original Undertale before bed last night hoping to see more on his spare opinions, which were consistent with this game, but I wound up being struck by the difference in tone. I'd need to go further in and a 1 game sample size isn't great, but for now that read on Chemist is so singularly terrible that I really would shed no tears for him.

I know I didn't like something from Chara last night, will try to find it but might not get to it before I go for the night.

[popsofctown]

Most recent votecount:

Monster Candy

[Replica]

Sorry, regarding the game I skimmed it wasn't the first one, 1.1 Either way this is more of a marker for me to do this later than anything right now.

Found the bit on Chara I didn't like:

i'd like to be careful about it, but Nacho deciding to defend me here is something i can't help but like. i do wonder about his list of reads, because from calling Replica "disingenous" (with negative connotations?) i didn't expect a strong townread.
not that i disagree with the conclusion, obviously, but i would like to know where it came from.
i also forget if he talked about why Sherlock is scum, but i still need to put some effort into Sherlock anyway.

Personally, anytime the question "What do I expect from this person as town?" doesn't line up with reality, I start doing the math. Liking it might be an instinctual reaction, and investigating it further a next step, but this is again very different from how I think as town.

@Pops:

Sorry to highlight it but you've had me double sparing for every VC since I initially picked Hectic.

[Amrun]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

[Replica]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

I'm not familiar with Chara. I don't know how they'd normally handle it as town. I highlighted it as something very different than the way

I

think as town, and exactly what this difference was.

To more explicitly outline what happened for you: Chara did not expect Nacho to townread them. Nacho townread them. Chara "can't help but like it". I post about how different this is from my style of thinking: I don't like when something surprises me or doesn't match up to my expectations.

[Hectic]

napstablook here...
here's some random thoughts from my phone...
really regret telling Sujimichi not to hammer earlier...
realise now that we should've let the SPARE happen rather than risk it falling apart... oh well...
replica and sherlock both feel like town...
chara i'm having doubts on after looking through her ISO...
she parked a SPARE on us while not really giving us the impression she townread us with the way she asked us questions/talked about us and questioned Nacho's read...
and the timing of her SPARE vote change after alimdia said he would hammer soon feels like she would rather have someone be (mis)lynched instead...
alimdia also feels slightly off but then we saw his flurry of posts for his reads list were minutes apart...
think it's really hard to fake those so quickly unless he prepared the posts beforehand which is unlikely...
we still like sujimichi he feels very honest...
we're more confident in SPARING over FIGHTING overall...
sherlock or sujimichi are both fine we think...
replica as the third option...
@popsofctown: our FIGHT vote should be on Psyche we believe

[Hectic]

not really feeling up to this but i checked farkran...
like him as well so wouldn't FIGHT there today...
agree with some of his recent thoughts...
only person am semi confident in fighting is chara for now...
will leave it as an option but would still prefer to SPARE...
psyche slot is nullscum...
HURT: Chara

[alimdia]

Relatively busy these couple days so quick comments on stuff about me

I’d actually quite like to lynch nachomamma, looking back at his ISO and his recent readslist, although I’m willing to listen to his explanation. That seems like a very safe readlist, for lack of a better word. Like, I wouldn’t necessarily have expected to see myself and two other lurkers in your desired D1 lynchpool because that’s a very lhf way of approaching the game, and I don’t really see why if you think you have your pool down to 3 then why would you want to spare more than lynch in that pool?

I don’t particularly townread chara’s content, but I do think effort leans slightly +town and this is a game with only 2 scum so they can lean slightly town for now

So where are we

Something like

Town
Amrun
Chem

Townlean
Hectic
Chara

Nulltown
Farkran
Replica

Null
Psyche

Scumlean
Nacho
Suji

Scum
Alim

The problem I think is that the first 2 posts were before he reread my ISO, which is confirmed by his post 457. But he complains that people aren't engaging with his recent posts.
Btw, I did want to push Nacho (I had a post about it)
Anyway, when I'm less busy I'll 'engage' with your recent posts and also the new replacements.
A breath of new life into this game!

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I felt like alim’s push on me early was scummy because it reminded me of scum looking for something to push rather than trying to genuinely decide if the action was scum motivated or not

He actually does improve on another glance through his iso, and so I’m not set on him being definite scum

Some parts of his reads posts seemed like IIOA and he doesn’t seem that interested in following up on the things he says he’s interested in. If you’ll forgive me the egoism, he said he wanted to see what game of my question to (nacho, chem, jtheo etc) but didn’t follow up there or do anything with anyone who did answer (I can’t remember who it was rn). Moreover, I think there’s a general lack of direction to his posting or interest in figuring things out which is probably +scum

[Amrun]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

I'm not familiar with Chara. I don't know how they'd normally handle it as town. I highlighted it as something very different than the way

I

think as town, and exactly what this difference was.

To more explicitly outline what happened for you: Chara did not expect Nacho to townread them. Nacho townread them. Chara "can't help but like it". I post about how different this is from my style of thinking: I don't like when something surprises me or doesn't match up to my expectations.

I don’t understand this at all.

If Chara is town, why would they not like nacho townreading them? That is a valid reason to rethink your read on someone.

This is far too black and white for me. People don’t function that way. They’re multidimensional.

[Replica]

Honest question: Do you know what the word "I" means?

The irony of that post is that I'm expecting a lot more multidimensionality to Chara than your post is.

[Amrun]

Honest question: Do you know what the word "I" means?

The irony of that post is that I'm expecting a lot more multidimensionality to Chara than your post is.

Yes, I do. But I don’t follow your train of thought, clearly, which is more concerning to me than following the train of thought and disagreeing with it.

[Replica]

Honest question: Do you know what the word "I" means?

The irony of that post is that I'm expecting a lot more multidimensionality to Chara than your post is.

Yes, I do. But I don’t follow your train of thought, clearly, which is more concerning to me than following the train of thought and disagreeing with it.

Reconsidering someone just because you townread them is the most basic of the basic. It is a bad mistake to make as town from my perspective.

I, personally, meaning Replica, operate a lot off of expectations as town. This can come from meta, or from observed level of play. When someone does the opposite of what I expect them to do as town, this is a problem. The implication is that either my expectations of their townplay are wrong, or they are more likely to be mafia! Emphasis on the latter!

I have not played with Chara. As town, do they play like the world's most basic player, do they play similar to me, or neither? I don't know; I haven't played with them! I must guess. I feel like they might do similar to me, and be skeptical that goes against their expectations for someone's town play! Maybe I am wrong!

[Nachomamma8]

Wooo buddy. Glad we have more posting: will catch up reading for now and maybe will get some preliminary thoughts on the table but I won't be able to do anything real until tomorrow.

[Amrun]

@Replica: Yes, and none of that is contrary to what I’m saying. What I don’t understand is why you think Chara thinks nacho townreading him is not what he would expect of town nacho.

[Nachomamma8]

...and, as I feared, definitely too drunk to read + understand + make cogent replies. I will attempt to NOT imbibe tomorrow so that I can be a good boy which will probably be better for my overall health.

[Replica]

@Replica: Yes, and none of that is contrary to what I’m saying. What I don’t understand is why you think Chara thinks nacho townreading him is not what he would expect of town nacho.

Probably because Chara said in the post that the townread was unexpected, if I really dug deep and had to guess.

Granted, Chara could have technically been referring to scum Nacho. This would be a valid reading of the post iirc.

[Amrun]

@Replica: Yes, and none of that is contrary to what I’m saying. What I don’t understand is why you think Chara thinks nacho townreading him is not what he would expect of town nacho.

Probably because Chara said in the post that the townread was unexpected, if I really dug deep and had to guess.

Granted, Chara could have technically been referring to scum Nacho. This would be a valid reading of the post iirc.

That is absolutely how I read that post and I think your interpretation of that post is kind of insane and nonsensical. At least I understand the actual words you are saying now, though.

[Chara]

i don't know if i understand what either of you mean. :>
1) i don't scumread Nacho, and 2) i was referring to being wary of my own inclination to TR a defense of myself, not that i shouldn't TR Nacho, if that is what you believe i meant.
what i was concerned about from that post was Nacho's essentially locktown read on Hectic. if he has a reason for it beyond what i believed the reason was at first (since he's said it isn't the roleplay/engagement combo) then i'd like to know what it is.

[Chara]

I have not played with Chara. As town, do they play like the world's most basic player, do they play similar to me, or neither? I don't know; I haven't played with them! I must guess. I feel like they might do similar to me, and be skeptical that goes against their expectations for someone's town play! Maybe I am wrong!

i would say we don't play similarly, you seem to have a strong scumhunting methodology i don't share. but i'm enjoying playing with you and would like to continue to do so.

[Chara]

Hectic: i switched to my best townread at the time as i was posting. we had more time afterwards as well so there was no need to switch back.
why do you regret telling alimdia to wait on your spare? we have replacements and a deadline extension and i'm glad we didn't end the day there.

[Chara]

i should go through Farkran's entrance properly, and also remind myself why Replica scumreads Nacho if it's besides the Chemist read (which i don't know if i agree with, Chemist's tone is easygoing but if it's NAI it's not helpful, but there's nothing i dislike)
also Sujimichi who i still like, though i don't know why the Nacho vote. possible i missed something on the skim.i keep telling myself i'll laptop out the analysis and then putting it off.

[Farkran]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

Yowch, unvote Farkran after pressure, but not because of a townread. only to vote with him on a wagon of his creation.


Please y’all can we fight this?

Hmmm... i think this is a townslip from Amrun. Banal misrep on a scumread, i think this almost always comes from tunneled town. Or, at least, Amrun is genuinely pushing suji and not trying to put pressure or reaction test anything.

I'll explain the thought process that led to this conclusion: when you are town and uninformed, you form uncertain reads, which then you subconsciously corroborate every time you see something that apparently agrees with your theory. It's wrong to play like that, but it's how the human brain instinctively works. If something goes in the same direction as you are going, you are more likely to perceive it as true - therefore you do not pause to doublecheck if you were correct. That is indicative of sincerity. Sure, scum!Amrun too could produce a fake tunnel against suji, but it's... way less likely, because it's really hard to fake subconscious reads. I am more confident on town!Amrun now, and the displayed range of read mistakes/instinctive thought would explain her internal inconsistency i pointed out earlier.

[Farkran]

I disagree with the conclusion of Farkran's #444, I buy most of Sujimichi's #420 in explaining their reaction. I do think #456 is a bit delusional about the divorce bit, but I come out of this still liking Sujimichi over others. It might be helpful to try to order people somewhat; I'll try and circle back to that in a bit. Their mention of town Sujimichi also makes me want to go back and read them.

For multiple reasons Sujimichi is very low on my list to lynch. First: Willingness to hammer the spare. Second: Their playstyle strongly hints to me that we have to look for voting/pushing patterns over tone. Farkran's started to delve into the latter, but this is not my pick for the day.

P-Edit: The "I do not respond to pressure" is again failing to recognize their own limits I think, which is a shame. That's a liability for us, but it's also a big liability for them as a player more broadly.

Here's a true playstyle/reasoning difference. I probably won't see eye to eye with replica in this game, because of different assumptions and different mindsets. It's still worth asking though, why point 2 would be indicative of town!suji? You are implying he is low on your lynch list because of that, but i don't see atonality as town points. Point 1 would do, based on your premise, which is different than mine and i don't really want to bring heavy setup spec to the table again. I would have, if i was here at the time, because i really think Spare is the worse option.

Would you agree with Sherlock in that me and suji is TvT at this point? Where does this conclusion leave sherlock in your mind?

[Farkran]

Nvm you answered it two post later and then produced a readlist.

(yeah, i'm catching up)

[Farkran]

Replica, in what way is that different than how you’d expect Chara to handle that thought train as town?

I'm not familiar with Chara. I don't know how they'd normally handle it as town. I highlighted it as something very different than the way

I

think as town, and exactly what this difference was.

To more explicitly outline what happened for you: Chara did not expect Nacho to townread them. Nacho townread them. Chara "can't help but like it". I post about how different this is from my style of thinking: I don't like when something surprises me or doesn't match up to my expectations.

Same as i described what i would expect from town!Amrun, i don't think town!Chara would feel off by the surprise townread given by Nacho if the read matches Chara's alignment. I think it would produce a pleasant reaction, but nothing to form a solid read on - this matches with Chara's behavior afterwards, as he doesn't seem to produce a hard townread of Nacho.

I think the upcoming Chara vs Hectic interaction is a similar example of that and i would like to hear more from both slots.

@Chara, why the spare on hectic?

@Hectic, why don't you like Chara townreading you so much as to FIGHT him for that?