Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Farkran]

and the timing of her SPARE vote change after alimdia said he would hammer soon feels like she would rather have someone be (mis)lynched instead...

This line in particular - i see how this could come from different setup spec conclusions, i.e. you like spare while i don't, but why do you think it is scum motivated to prevent a spare hammer? What's to gain, from a scum POV, in ending the day with a fight instead of a spare? Even if we disagree on what is the better route in general, i would think that Chara's only benefit in preventing a Spare would be that Hectic is not his scumpartner and therefore he doesn't want to spare there. Why do you think that sparing 4 town is easier than fighting 2 scum, though?

[Farkran]

Hectic: i switched to my best townread at the time as i was posting. we had more time afterwards as well so there was no need to switch back.
why do you regret telling alimdia to wait on your spare? we have replacements and a deadline extension and i'm glad we didn't end the day there.

This is interesting - why is replica your highest townread, even though he's 1. scumreading you and 2. having a very different playstyle and mindset than you? I am not implying that anyone who matches those two points is scummy, but i also don't see how that leads to make him your HIGHEST townread. You say you are good at townhunting, can you produce a readlist?

[Farkran]

i should go through Farkran's entrance properly

Yes please

[Farkran]

and finally one more thought before i tear myself away.

even if we spare today (i don't think we should), and even if we spare all four days (i !!!REALLY!!! don't think we should), i think it'd be beneficial for the town to try to flush out some baddies first. hectic brought up that there's more town than scum and townies can sometimes be scummy and scum struggle to be townie (which I disagree with but different time different place) - not making an earnest effort to find them makes looking townie a hell of a lot easier. the thing that makes scum scum is the lying and it's much harder for scum to lie and say "that person i know is town is scum" or "you are wrong about my partner that you caught" than it is for them to say "i'm town! the townie everyone thinks is town!".

think about it, friends. don't let this young dragon's words of wisdom fall on deaf ears.

I disagree with your risk assessment strongly, and I need to evaluate whether this is truly your opinion on what is best for Town or your desired outcome.

My mechanical thoughts here are the same I expressed during the last Undertale game I play and after seeing our town win despite miscues and seeing the SPARE CITY town go down in horrible flames they are thoughts that I continue to maintain. Consider the following points and tell me how crazy I'm being here.

PROPOSAL A: SPARING CONFIRMED TOWN IS NO MORE BENEFICIAL THAN SPARING VANILLA TOWN

Consider the game of billiards. In the game, a "duck" is considered a shot so easy that you basically can't miss it. And yet, common strategy dictates that you don't take ducks the minute they become available; you use them when you don't have any other good shots available. This is because correctly sinking balls that are in OK but not perfect are more valuable than sinking balls that you know you will get anyways - kind of how correctly sparing a vanilla town now is more valuable than a confirmed town. If we back ourselves into a corner and things get mucky, sure, take the duck. But otherwise, why should we take it right now? We still have to sink the same number of balls - why not take care of those we are most likely to lose opportunities in via nightkills

now

and take the duck when it is most convenient to us?

PROPOSAL 2: SCUM PLAYING AROUND MECHANICS OF FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR IS ACTUALLY GOOD FOR TOWN

So, bear with me because I know that I am constantly teetering on the edge of insanity. When we spare someone, that person should always self-hammer and they should always claim friendly neighbor or not while they self-hammer. This means there's a 0% chance of erroneous claims and it prevents the scenario where scum can reasonably claim friendly neighbor and get away with it.

Keeping that in mind, I think it's far better for town if scum have to deal with the possibility of their plans going to shit with mislynch target #1 claiming friendly neighbor and they can no longer push them - we are much more likely to catch them with their pants down than we would be otherwise and I really don't think that getting a correct Spare D1 is a situation that scum is actually in any way afraid of.

My other thought (the smallest of the three, so I'm not making it big and bold) is that we are protecting a player, a voice, not so much a role - thus I'd rather protect someone I know is a good player and I know who will produce and push the town towards a win as opposed to rolling a roulette wheel and hoping that a strong town player is also a friendly neighbor.

Do you still disagree with my risk assessment? Do you kind of see where I'm coming from or do I still seem lost in the sauce?

HEAL: Hectic

My strongest townread seems to be a sickness that's spreading throughout the entire town; if I spare today, I can't think of anyone I'd rather save than you <3

Nacho, why you too?

[Farkran]

Conclusions: i am strongly considering scum presence in my wagon, given how all these interactions rolled out before i replaced in. That quartet seems too cohesive to be natural. People have been changing opinion on setup spec and reads almost simultaneously, for almost no reason at all. In my first readthrough, Nacho and Amrun seemed the most town but after a more in-depth analysis they are not consistent in their progression and thoughts. Amrun now does look a bit better, but that's mostly a gut-interpretation of her latest townslip. Sujimichi was scummy even before my rep-in, i see no reason to save that so far. Chara is the best out of the four, mostly because of how he picked up my request for a recap, but i do want to hear more.

[Nachomamma8]

Why me too what?

[alimdia]

V/LA 24 hours - glad we bumped up 8 pages in the last day tho

[Farkran]

Why me too what?

"let's not spare"
-posts later-
"spare: guy"

[Psyche]

Okay, I'm committing to providing an initial analyses of each player before another night ends, CST. I apologize for my slow pace - I'm the type to put too much on his plate.

[Hectic]

Chara is the best out of the four, mostly because of how he picked up my request for a recap, but i do want to hear more.

really...
i don't really get why would this be town-indicative... that's a relatively easy way for scum to look helpful without putting themselves at risk... so i wouldn't call it AI...
i wish i'd asked Sujimichi to hammer because from my perspective i know i'm town and it's an optimal play...
it's similar to what people were saying earlier where town should always self-hammer if put on L-1...
but i did want to wait for replacements and the activity has been good so it's not all bad...
it's the nature of Chara's interactions with me through the game...
she kept giving me the impression she wasn't townreading me with some of the questions she asked me or things she said...
so keeping her SPARE vote on me the whole time is strange...
though i guess one possibility is she wanted to be sure i was town if she's going to SPARE me and is why she was acting like that which would make sense...

[Farkran]

Chara is the best out of the four, mostly because of how he picked up my request for a recap, but i do want to hear more.

really...
i don't really get why would this be town-indicative... that's a relatively easy way for scum to look helpful without putting themselves at risk... so i wouldn't call it AI...
i wish i'd asked Sujimichi to hammer because from my perspective i know i'm town and it's an optimal play...

it's similar to what people were saying earlier where town should always self-hammer if put on L-1...

but i did want to wait for replacements and the activity has been good so it's not all bad...
it's the nature of Chara's interactions with me through the game...
she kept giving me the impression she wasn't townreading me with some of the questions she asked me or things she said...
so keeping her SPARE vote on me the whole time is strange...
though i guess one possibility is she wanted to be sure i was town if she's going to SPARE me and is why she was acting like that which would make sense...

Exposing yourself by generating new content might be easy to fake as scum to get towncred, but the more you produce, the more you can be called out later. It's usually not a good long-term plan for scum, but it might be consistent with chara profile - definitely doesn't seem like the long-term type. I can agree to the bottom part of your post, and that's what i want to hear from chara.

Wrt the bolded, if anything, scum would have even MORE reason to selfhammer, so why would you point out that it's optimal play for town? I mean, ok, but without a flip you are validating scum quickhammers on spare for no reason at all

[Amrun]

I mean, I didn’t even read the thread before you caught up on your own, so that’s a weak reason to TR someone.

[Farkran]

Conclusions: i am strongly considering scum presence in my wagon, given how all these interactions rolled out before i replaced in. That quartet seems too cohesive to be natural. People have been changing opinion on setup spec and reads almost simultaneously, for almost no reason at all. In my first readthrough, Nacho and Amrun seemed the most town but after a more in-depth analysis they are not consistent in their progression and thoughts. Amrun now does look a bit better, but that's mostly a gut-interpretation of her latest townslip. Sujimichi was scummy even before my rep-in, i see no reason to save that so far. Chara is the best out of the four, mostly because of how he picked up my request for a recap, but i do want to hear more.

This is where i come from though - out of that group, both Chara and Suji placed an opportunistic vote on my slot, but in a Chara vs Suji 1v1 i would always side with Chara. The same holds true for Amrun vs Suji and Nacho vs Suji, which means i think Suji is the scum on my wagon so far. Could be 2 scum, which would point to Chara/Suji out of those 4, but... i have them as disaligned. Why wouldn't that specific scumteam join their efforts against me instead of diverging after i replace in?

[Farkran]

HURT: JTB

Just to have a vote down+see how this develops

Chemist do you have a followup on this? JTB is the Replica slot, for the record. I believe there has been plenty of content to analyze by now

[Chemist1422]

HURT: JTB

Just to have a vote down+see how this develops

Chemist do you have a followup on this? JTB is the Replica slot, for the record. I believe there has been plenty of content to analyze by now

Is my vote still there

I’m pretty sure I said I townread the Replica slot

[Farkran]

Do you want to update it?

[Farkran]

Also i metadived the recent suji and found one scum game (over) and some other game i cannot talk about i guess, but in none of them i saw reason to townlock him here. @sherlock we may talk about the finished scum game if you think it's worth it

[Chemist1422]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

[Amrun]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

Why not join me on Suji?

[Chemist1422]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

Why not join me on Suji?

Because I don’t have a why yet

I’ll read the slot soon

[Amrun]

Do you want to update it?

HURT: pops

:v

Why not join me on Suji?

Because I don’t have a why yet

I’ll read the slot soon

We don’t have a lot of time. Can you engage a little bit more so we don’t no lynch?

[Chemist1422]

We have like 3-4 days right?

I still think we should spare Hectic today

[Amrun]

We have like 3-4 days right?

I still think we should spare Hectic today

Had. It’s winding down now.

Imagine a world where we can’t spare, because we are already in a world where we should not spare. Who would you fight?

[Sujimichi]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

[Hectic]

i had a look through his loser game and it seems like he spams a lot of useful looking questions without giving much analysis of his own while he's a loser.
not in this game though.
he's given detailed thoughts and analysis - like in his interactions with Nacho - and his questions have been more pointed.
he's a real pal.