Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Replica]

Yeah Amrun I think blaming you for quickresponses was petty, and the significance of the third point really differed contextually/in its importance and relevance even though they can hypothetically be stripped to a single facet.

[Replica]

For Farkran, the point of my exception is that yes I won't boycott: your post I interpreted as postulating that I was preemptively giving myself an excuse to change to a hurt vote. What I was saying was "I'm not voting hurt until it becomes obviously detrimental to hold out"

I also don't have any publicly available meta. I doubt how useful it'd be and would spoiler it but if you want insight into my perceptions of myself as a player - how I approach scum, how I approach town, what my weaknesses are, etc. - I'll answer.

[Replica]

I think I might be focusing way too much on the existence of my/Amrun's struggles to communicate effectively, getting annoyed and frustrated when it persists or I fail to overcome it. At some points we feel really similar and it really seems like what I don't like is some of my own medicine.

I'm really wondering if I should be looking for strengths that complement first instead of focusing solely on overcoming the mutual abrasion and pedantry as a hard prerequisite to cooperation

[Replica]

As far as outcomes of the day goes, this doesn't seem to be possible for me to really meet Amrun in the middle either, only for one of us to completely give: I'm not lynching unless I absolutely have to, and the preference then is Nacho. I'm open to sparing others, but Amrun wants to lynch, and have that lynch not be Nacho. She'll only spare if we have to. Our desired outcomes are really just too different here, one of us has to get dragged kicking and screaming to the other side.

Some theorists in international relations are really into advocating "linkage", meaning any cooperation/deviation in one realm should or will necessarily be responded to in another. Nixon/Kissinger were a big fan of this: No progress on arms talks until the Soviets tossed them a bone in Vietnam. Linkage has its day in the sun on occasion, but has a big problem: It frequently deadlocks. In contrast, a lot of the Reagan years, specifically when George Shultz got involved, were spent doing the opposite: sectioning different areas off, not letting stalled talks in one area get in the way of incremental progress in another. The latter, whether by circumstances or strength of theory, turned out to be really effective, and I'm a big fan.

We probably can't really agree on who to spare/lynch Day 1, just bludgeon the other into submission and revisit the possibility Day 2, so that really leaves reads as the main prospect for progress here.

How do you feel about Chara's response to us Amrun? I think it's probably the single most town reaction in the game so far.

[Amrun]

Yeah I liked Chara’s response.

I will spare if I need to to progress the game. Sparing now after a full day of active discussion isn’t as bad but a couple of hard flips would make it better.

[Farkran]

For Farkran, the point of my exception is that yes I won't boycott: your post I interpreted as postulating that I was preemptively giving myself an excuse to change to a hurt vote. What I was saying was "I'm not voting hurt until it becomes obviously detrimental to hold out"

Oh. No, that was not what i meant to imply with my post. That question was aimed at understanding your thought processes when voting. If you acknowledge the existence of scum in this game, you must also acknowledge the possibility of sparing scum, and that scum would promote the sparing of their partner. I was asking you why, how, and who are you confident believing when you throw a spare on someone. You already answered this - for today.

I also don't have any publicly available meta. I doubt how useful it'd be and would spoiler it but if you want insight into my perceptions of myself as a player - how I approach scum, how I approach town, what my weaknesses are, etc. - I'll answer.

I didn't look at your join date. I assume you are an alt? I remember someone saying they were an alt but not willing to reveal their main, is that you? Sorry, late evening and from mobile atm.

I am interested in your townplay, scumplay, the differences you perceive between them, your strong points and your weak points. Not being able to verify your claims will make this info less useful, but not entirely useless.

[Replica]

I get that it's annoying to not play a card ourselves but I'm satisfied seeing what the reveal they play to give us tonight.

I didn't look at your join date. I assume you are an alt? I remember someone saying they were an alt but not willing to reveal their main, is that you?

#279

I believe the post you're referencing though is actually to Sherlock.

[Replica]

Spoiler: Personal opinions/perceptions of my play

As town, I'm good at being active. I'm bad at motivating others to do the same. I'm very bad at reads, and in particular I have a bad habit of sticking to a single thing. This works really well when it's correct, really terribly when it doesn't. To make this worse, recognizing it and trying to correct for it ingame seems a 50/50 for bad results, making me feel stupid when I do. I can be very irritable if I think someone is being condescending. I was always the youngest in every group growing up, and it's an artifact that has stuck even as I've grown older.

As scum, I often have a dilemma in that I really don't take much pride or joy in bringing out the worst in others, but consider it the easiest way to win. I don't think in terms of trying to get people to townread me or avoiding a lynch except as a means to an end; I just think of the number of mislynches we need and how to get there. I think this is different than most people who have delusions of grandeur, thinking that the best scumplayers are the ones with the EPIC THREE WAY HARDCARRY. I'm very good at setting my teammates up well and in standardizing my tone, attitudes, and reasoning; differences are invented in the course of new towngames but I make sure to cash them in strategically. It is very difficult for me to stay motivated and engaged with a game as scum unless I consider it especially challenging: I am more inclined to just sit back and let the town beat itself, waiting for another game where I flip town. I manage to stay about as active as I do when town, but it's usually spent miserable. If I had to guess what a different weakness is, it's that I'm transparently opportunistic when I feel assured that people aren't paying attention.

In general, I think people are too selfish in their play. I never live up to it, but I dream of being an amplifier: As town, for the strengths of my partners. As scum, for the same but also for the worst traits of the town.

A lot of these attitudes are pretty apparent this game: Of course my scum description is the antithesis of how I've been this game! I think a healthier balance might be better but it's no surprise the fears I have for my own play and those of the town more broadly are exactly the ones I'm obsessing over internally

[Chemist1422]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

[Replica]

Alright, a bit over 36 hours, now might be the time for some others to kick into gear. I'm excited for alim to get back from V/LA, Chara's been posting gold, and maybe Nacho will find some life in him a bit early instead of staying checked out until Day 2.

[Chara]

only 36 hours....

Hectic spare is one i'm most confident with. i'm torn between that as the safest option and wanting to pursue something to lead to a flip.
i do TR Sujimichi. i think i believe them about what they said in the previous game, in that they would not take ongoing games into account, so i won't take that as a clear but rather as a testament to Sujimichi's own commitment to not referring to ongoing games, which i agree with and have in fact done in the past. to be clear, i'm referring to making comments such as "i haven't been scum in a while" to a scumpartner, whilst scum in an ongoing game. ongoing games don't exist, so i find it perfectly valid. lying by omission is necessary, in fact.

i'm not sure why Psyche finds this so hard to believe, actually.

i'm not sure why i feel so cautious about the lynch. in a regular game, you simply do the best you can with your day 1 lynch because you have to, but all of the discussion surrounding optimal action has me overthinking it.
day 1 scum lynches lose games after all, ahaha.

[Chara]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Farkran and Nacho's ISOs? and perhaps Replica.

[Chara]

i hate that i feel motivated at 5am. i shouldn't check the thread this late but "Chara's been posting gold" makes me want to do things... but it's really too late.

i still like all of my townreads from my list and so i'm willing to go anywhere besides them if we don't spare today. i'll try again to read tomorrow.

[Chara]

Amrun's gone up for me a bit as well. lost the post while writing but the argument with Replica really hit me, as both someone who responds quickly without reading well occasionally, or who doesn't have time to look over things 100%. i know it's not fully AI because it's about out of game factors and Amrun's style/capability to post, but i like how the discussion came about if that makes sense.

[Chara]

re: the discussion about forcing scum to do things, making up townreads as scum is just as telling as making up scumreads. the problem is that usually players focus on scum trying to go for mislynches, and neglect to crossexamine their reasoning for the townreads they give, or their actual belief in them (being informed, knowing, vs. belief but uninformed).

i still believe it's necessary to have both, and the threat of a lynch is a good motivator and useful for determining alignment, but going for spares isn't such a death sentence even without the flip feedback.

i'm willing to do either for today is my point.

mafiascum being slow for me is also probably a sign to not do this right now.
still need to do ISOs.

[Farkran]

Spoiler: Personal opinions/perceptions of my play

As town, I'm good at being active. I'm bad at motivating others to do the same. I'm very bad at reads, and in particular I have a bad habit of sticking to a single thing. This works really well when it's correct, really terribly when it doesn't. To make this worse, recognizing it and trying to correct for it ingame seems a 50/50 for bad results, making me feel stupid when I do. I can be very irritable if I think someone is being condescending. I was always the youngest in every group growing up, and it's an artifact that has stuck even as I've grown older.

As scum, I often have a dilemma in that I really don't take much pride or joy in bringing out the worst in others, but consider it the easiest way to win. I don't think in terms of trying to get people to townread me or avoiding a lynch except as a means to an end; I just think of the number of mislynches we need and how to get there. I think this is different than most people who have delusions of grandeur, thinking that the best scumplayers are the ones with the EPIC THREE WAY HARDCARRY. I'm very good at setting my teammates up well and in standardizing my tone, attitudes, and reasoning; differences are invented in the course of new towngames but I make sure to cash them in strategically. It is very difficult for me to stay motivated and engaged with a game as scum unless I consider it especially challenging: I am more inclined to just sit back and let the town beat itself, waiting for another game where I flip town. I manage to stay about as active as I do when town, but it's usually spent miserable. If I had to guess what a different weakness is, it's that I'm transparently opportunistic when I feel assured that people aren't paying attention.

In general, I think people are too selfish in their play. I never live up to it, but I dream of being an amplifier: As town, for the strengths of my partners. As scum, for the same but also for the worst traits of the town.

A lot of these attitudes are pretty apparent this game: Of course my scum description is the antithesis of how I've been this game! I think a healthier balance might be better but it's no surprise the fears I have for my own play and those of the town more broadly are exactly the ones I'm obsessing over internally

I know this is an oversimplification of what you said, but it pretty much boils down to "i am very active as town, i tend to lurk as scum". There are other differences in terms of

what

you do when you are active and what you try to fake when playing scum, but ultimately this is a declaration of being sortable by post count. Of course i mean no offense, should you flip town it means the differences between your town and scum play are what you really perceive when doing introspective analysis - should you flip scum, you probably have pointed out what you think OTHERS may believe is true. From this perspective, your description is not entirely satisfying. "Active when town, lurker when scum" sounds like a definition by the manual. A lot of people -subconsciously- play like that, and they do not actually realize it - otherwise, they would do a far better job faking their activity when rolling scum. The profile i have drawn for you is

quite

similar to my own, in that i am also very active and efforting as town... however, if you have the time and will to effort as town, you'll find that will even as scum. That's what i do, and what i expect you would do: there's no reason why you wouldn't, especially if you are aware that it will get you scumreaded.

Porting it into this game, it seems you are mid-road in terms of activity. The previous paragraph is purely psychological, whereas adding the statistical element in a cross-analysis of your slot, it seems you are caring enough to show your presence, answering most if not all posts directed to you (this is not particularly common in mafia games) and also going out of your way to contribute with original posts. Despite that, you replaced in 5 days before me - roughly a week after game start - yet we have almost the same post count at this moment. Would you townread or scumread yourself based on this?

Lastly, adding in historical analysis, these are what pinged me most:

As a player, I have two mostly complementary but occasionally opposing motivations. First, I find mafia aesthetically pleasing and view it as a work of art. The best play in my book are the things that I find subjectively beautiful:

I love plans that come together, masterful improvisation in the face of them falling apart, clever insights and teamwork

like a well-oiled machine. Second,

I am fiercely competitive and have a relentless drive to win

. Generally, I would rather lose a game that pushed me and my friends to the limit rather than win a snoozefest, but the tradeoff is different for every game!

This really does not fit with your dislike of common scumgames. I tend to believe this more than your recent description - your original introduction was made in a much more relaxed gamestate, fitting with your "let town die" mindset when playing scum, contrasting with the current pagebursts allowed by the recently replaced-in players.

Let's wind that back a bit. My biggest weakness as a player is that

my attitude isn't as conducive to playing cooperatively as I'd like

. In particular, anytime I sense condescension I tend to bite. I can't think of any reads or thoughts in particular I want to ask you about right now Amrun, but I'll revisit after I catch up with Chara/alimdia and see if I can think of something.

Again, this doesn't particularly match what you described just now. You did mention that condescendence irritates you, but that's sounds like a description staple - you also said you love to bolster your teammates, coordinate complex plans, and have a dislike for primadonnas.

Have no fear, that was the extent of my mechanical comments for the most part. My stance is that we should spare Day 1 for sure, and 3/4 times overall. My preference is to have FN claim Day 1/Day 2. That's it. I think for the most part people know that this is the "correct in a mechanical vacuum" play, what we do is up to us.

Sermons are a great way to put people to sleep and keep town out of the game.

I think i don't need to say that you are one of the greatest offenders with regard to wallposts. I am another, but i do not think that wallposts are inherently bad - that's a significant difference in terms of ideal behavior display.

We have 3 days. This town is completely lethargic, and these almost invariably lead to losses. I'm trying to strike a balance with giving content for people to engage with while keeping the game accessible and digestible for others to take up the torch.

We have two players who have not even vaguely attempted to play the game in a week and a half. I'm about ready to give up on sparing and move to lynching, either to force them to get content or to let us move forward with players who want to be here, or at least understand that they have a duty to their fellow players to participate.

I hope Pine follows through on the above, but this needs to happen now, not later.

So, i read this as a testament to your will to lynch lurker slots when sparing does not look like an option. In a conclusive argument regarding your stance, i would expect that you would at least have placed a FIGHT vote on one of the lurker slots - if anything, to put pressure. My slot was being heavily wagoned and it might be consistent for you to dodge it, maybe even in an effort to promote your sparing strategy, but i don't see any reason for you to dodge Pine's, even less so than dodging Nacho's.

Ultimately, i don't see any reason to townread you, sheep your votes or your strategy altogether. This is true regardless of my aversion to sparing in general. If i had to scumread you, though, it would be in a world where i hunt for deepwolves. This is a game where i will probably find your partner first, if you are scum - again, unless you manage to spare him first. As i said, i will keep an eye to your sparing targets, and to be honest i don't particularly fancy having you in lylo.

[out of game note: i am greatly enjoying playing with you. I was not lying when i said our player profiles are a close match.]

[Farkran]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Nacho, Chara, Amrun, and your updated opinion on psyche, maybe? Also almidia. And cast a vote.

[Farkran]

i'm still reading but:
really very town: Hectic, Replica
townish: Chemist, Sujimichi, Amrun
leftovers: alimdia, Psyche, Sherlock, Nacho
scum?: Farkran

i hestitate to dismiss Sujimichi and Amrun entirely as TvT, and i think i ultimately feel better about Suji for town over Amrun.

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Farkran and Nacho's ISOs? and perhaps Replica.

Amrun's gone up for me a bit as well. lost the post while writing but the argument with Replica really hit me, as both someone who responds quickly without reading well occasionally, or who doesn't have time to look over things 100%. i know it's not fully AI because it's about out of game factors and Amrun's style/capability to post, but i like how the discussion came about if that makes sense.

I take it as you are now reading Suji vs Amrun as TvT and Hectic as T. Where does this leave Replica?

Also why is chemist up there and Nacho down there? Can you point me to the reasons why those two are in two separate tiers from your POV?

[Amrun]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Nacho, Chara, Amrun, and your updated opinion on psyche, maybe? Also almidia. And cast a vote.

I think Psyche is too sure about Sujimichi and it might make him scum. Whereas Sherlock I think is extremely town for how they went about it.

Alimdia isn’t overly scummy but I’d be fine fighting there as well.

[Replica]

Spoiler: More playstyle comments

None of these are as in conflict as you think, the question isn't "How does Replica compare to the average player in these traits/fears?", but "How does Replica this game compare to

Replica

?" This is impossible to actually do, hence why I was skeptical of it's usefulness. Walls and wordcount are an easy example; regarding your question about our comparative levels of activity I have been very intentional to maximize how readable and accessible both the game and my content are. This is part of the dream of being an amplifier and working more with others. In posting, this has meant doing far, FAR less than I would consider my typical.

The only one of those I think I should respond to is the "I lurk as mafia" reduction. This isn't an oversimplification, it's drastically wrong. If I want a town to be lethargic, it's not that I stop posting-I will purposely make it as difficult as humanly possible to play, and that often means being the most active one in the room. Modernity teaches us well the best way to deceive isn't misinformation or censorship: It's letting the truth be drowned out in worthless noise. The difference is occasionally in activity, but very rarely. It's in attitude. I am more likely to be

miserable

as mafia. This doesn't even mean I make the misery known. Comments like my having fun are absolutely the type of thing I'd make while internally dying for it to end.

To be blunt, I wanted to speak to specific strengths/weaknesses as each alignment without comparing how strong I am at each. It will become apparent in future games even if I try to hide it, however, so I might as well: I hope to be a better townplayer, but it won't happen in a single game. Whether by skill or by circumstance, I do not sweat in many scumgames, and actually losing is a joy to me not unlike that of seeing Halley's Comet.

My reads work in place of a hurt vote without the danger of others trying to use it to start wagons. No thanks.

[Replica]

In other words, what keeps me playing mafia is that I like challenges and I like bringing the best out of others. My strengths may lend themselves towards the opposites. We want most what we do not, or cannot, have.

[Replica]

I think Psyche is too sure about Sujimichi and it might make him scum. Whereas Sherlock I think is extremely town for how they went about it.

I thought a lot about this yesterday, I agree with you. The only issue for me was trying to figure out the scum incentive for him to push for 3/4 spares incl. Sujimichi/Sherlock. I think it makes sense if he thinks we won't actually spare the 3/4 people like he advocates, instead using it mostly to posture. That seems very plausible to me.

[Farkran]

My reads work in place of a hurt vote without the danger of others trying to use it to start wagons. No thanks.

This line in particular is the most dangerous thing you have slipped out so far. This means that you don't trust your own reads enough to see them fulfill their purpose. "The

DANGER

of others trying to use it to start wagons"? What's up with that thought process? You have scumreads because you want to remove scum. You use wagons to remove scum. You are NOT afraid of people wagoning your scumreads - you WANT them to, that's the purpose of scumreading someone.

No way i believe this. I don't buy that you put "being fiercely competitive and having a relentless drive to win" in the same line as "i am so afraid that my reads are wrong that i don't even want to risk putting weight into them", especially when you have such strong conviction about sparing being the absolute best strategy and about our spare targets being correct, without even having a flip to confirm. This thought process is conveniently exploited to validate any past, present or future error that you make in this game, which means you will likely place your partner as one of your sparing targets during the course of the match.

I am almost confident Replica is scum already. If i am correct, it's likely with a player he's heavily townreading. If not exactly hectic, maybe Chara was the scum on my wagon. Or Psyche again.

@Replica townreaders (except Replica himself): is there any reason i should townread Replica, besides lengthy posts and apparent internal consistency (except the recent self-description)? I'd like to avoid embarking myself on a vanity wagon 32 hours from deadline, but if there is any interest, my lynchpool is now {Replica, Psyche, Chemist}. I will never spare hectic today unless we are LITERALLY 10 minutes from deadline and i am the only active player around to hammer. I suggest no one doesn't either.

[Hectic]

hi...
Replica, do you mean you don't vote because you don't want to start FIGHT wagons...
because you want to SPARE instead...?
or because you're not confident in your reads and are afraid of misleading the town...?

[Hectic]

HURT: unvote
i may have been wrong about Chara...
but i am a little suspicious...
i'm still hiding from her after we started playing hide and seek and she still hasn't found me...
maybe scum-indicative...?