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[Replica]

Some words from our good old pal and unfortunate Farkstan Nacho would be nice right about now.

[Chara]

pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's still an issue if he's town.

if there's "no way to know" if it's personality then why does it come up in 1559, a post ostensibly about why you think farkran is scummy?

because thinking something and knowing it are two different things. i think it's scummy that town doesn't reconsider at all here. i won't know if that's the case unless i prod about it.

you can pretty much argue any tell is "just personality" if you go about it this way, so i'm not sure of your point.

[popsofctown]

Previous VC:

Compliment

[Chara]

ie. I'm very confident that alimdia showed a much more investigative and pondering mindset than they have in their scumgames, and am pretty sure the slot is town for it.

I have seen nothing from Bingle that makes me say "Yeah this guy is totally town", and at this point trying to lay out a case for it would be working backwards.

okay, thanks for the answer.
i haven't reread alimdia yet so i'll do that.

[Psyche]

I suppose my perception is that, despite your protestations, the rationales provided for your farkran scumreads are indistinguishable from criticisms of his play.

The "i haven't seen evidence of Farkran really considering any outside opinions about... basically anything" line is, again, a good example of this. How does that connect to him being scum?

I'd really rather Chara answer over anyone else pushing the wagon.

that's what i'm trying to figure out here. it's why i'm not voting to lynch him right now. i'm

not

confident he's scum.

if it's his personality, he can show me that himself in response. and if it

is

, maybe that could prompt some sort of rethinking on how he approaches the game. i don't know. mafia's a team game and i don't think soloing it is a good idea in the first place.

and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.

again, your reasoning for him being town would be nice.

see a lot here about how you're not confident he's scum but nothing that's a rationale for thinking he's scum

[Replica]

Psyche is the dude who purposely orders your favorite food and then offers pieces to everyone at the table but you

I know why he's doing it but this is still torture

[Psyche]

suppose my rationale for farkran town is still that he seems to be really and sincerely obsessed with gamesolving and pursuing the town wc

do i really need to explain what i see in his posts that leads me to this feeling? is it really not obvious what the broad strokes of a farkran towncase looks like with this thesis? it just seems like a broadly predictable argument

[Hectic]

i couldn't find anything in the Guns and Roses game which resemble his thoughts/reads from 287 to 293.
it's a + for the slot and i think Bingle should be off the FIGHT table for today.
but i wouldn't put so much stock into the meta of a single game, that'd i'd want to SPARE him, pal.

[Farkran]

I really disagree with Amrun's Alimdia read-they were a townlean for me and going back through the ISO this seems true to me.

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

I feel a lot better about the slot now. I think Bingle generally isn't framing the argument correctly with the nature of Amrun's read. It might be in reaction to Amrun's #1161 uses hyperbole that can imply it should NEVER be townread, rather than focusing on it not being a great universal tell/it being specific to the player.

I'm solidly off board with either of their approaches.

Manna has fallen from heaven and the 'Cho has returned. Hype!

I'd really encourage you to look into alimdia meta. Bingle's posting, despite having a really bad understanding of the Amrun argument, hasn't been bad but alimdia's posting is heavily underrated imo and I don't get Psyche's scumread there. This is very likely a townslot imo.

I've got to keep it short tonight, and could probably let the posts stew, but I would say real fast that the "single thing" hangup isn't really applicable to you. I was using the Chemist read as a starting point, and starting somewhere and waiting for more is fine. If anything it applies to Farkran...but I kinda doubt it.

You townread the timing of Farkran's shove on me but the chronology really suggests you shouldn't. #500 followed by #605 represented a change towards me being more skeptical of him. He picked up on this in #616 and asked why he moved from townlean to null but potential scum. I explain that I think he'd be this forceful as mafia and I don't trust tonereading him, instead trusting more his votes and patterns He asks for my perceptions of my own play after I offer them, and 12 hours later comes back with a comprehensive attack based on the gap between my ideals/fears and my actual play. I'll skip how his point changed over time from those personality exploitations to "well spare is bad idk why you go for that over flips" for now since I've been over it enough.

It smacked completely of someone who feared a war coming and decided it would be advantageous to be the one to launch the first volley.

I looked at Guns n Roses alimdia, stronger/more assertive play but I still didn't see the same level of investigation they do in this one. Scum alimdia really likes to unleash the accusations/scumcase all at once rather than laying out a more nuanced process over time. Granted, I only skimmed like half the game and need to double check, but I like the slot and think it's really underrated this game.

About this towncase of the Bingle slot.

Most of the case is based on Almidia's meta and posting, which i also townreaded at the time, so i largely agree with that. Bingle is occupying the same slot, but is behaving very differently, and not in a good way. His resistance to engage with the gamestate, and his progression about slots and which strategy to use is not pristine either. I don't see how Replica could be "feeling better" about the slot when he entered d2 sheeping me with a hurt vote on hectic (sheeping Replica's highest scumread, no less), or at least not to the extent Replica is townreading him right now, i.e. describing his lynch as "the brink of disaster". The problem is not the townread itself, it's the level of confidence displayed.

However, this would be indicative of a Replica/Bingle scumteam specifically, not individually scummy for either of them. Or, maybe, a Replica/Hectic scumteam with the former justifying his backpedal on sparing Hectic because the day seemed to be resolving differently, but i'm kinda past that and i wish to leave it in the past as long as we can get a flip today.

What's individually scummy about the Almidia/Bingle slot is almost entirely Bingle. Replica, have you meta'ed Bingle (or Jingle)? Why do you find that much unreasonable that scum!Almidia was engaged enough with the game to produce good content, while scum!Bingle doesn't want to? Why is town!Replica so confident in town!Bingle that you can't even imagine a Bingle/Farkran solve, same as Amrun does? Can you explain town!Bingle sheeping scum!Farkran, or even town!Farkran for that matter, just to 180° both his Hectic read and his solve strategy, with Almidia meta alone?

[Farkran]

it's progression which

could

be perceived as scum-indicative, but there's many other scenarios where that progression DOES make sense from a town PoV, if you look at the events surrounding them, which you are failing to consider. Regarding the flaws in your arguments, it was stuff like the list of events in timeline that you presented, and where Chara refuted your points and Amrun thanked for having the patience to, I'm too lazy to go back and find the posts.

Very interesting that you were coaching NaCl into manipulating me. Good job on that, it worked till later on.

NaCl came up with the largest part of his strategy, gambiting about the doctor, etc - i'm not cashing credit where it isn't due, but we have been communicating a lot about that game. I didn't provide any advice as to specifically manipulate you, but i gave him some insight about the meta we shared together (at the time, only the jester game). We tried to push for your lynch because we thought you were easier than, say, Nancy, titus, or Amrun. Turned out you weren't. Adding that to the cult game we recently played together, i think you are a more than respectable player and you deserve to be recognized a large enough scum range over what has been described in Nacho's meta case.

I will reread my timeline, but going from memory i think most of the flaws have been wrt my read of Replica, not of you and Chara.

[Chara]

see a lot here about how you're not confident he's scum but nothing that's a rationale for thinking he's scum

i mean it's in the post, you disagreeing with it doesn't make it not exist.

[Chara]

suppose my rationale for farkran town is still that he seems to be really and sincerely obsessed with gamesolving and pursuing the town wc

do i really need to explain what i see in his posts that leads me to this feeling? is it really not obvious what the broad strokes of a farkran towncase looks like with this thesis? it just seems like a broadly predictable argument

considering the first time i asked about it you gave me "a town role PM doesn't make a man a poet", yes, it is nice to have you restate that that is still your reasoning and that you're sure.

[Farkran]

because my argument for scum Farkran has never been "well, he's bad."

at this point it's more like i find it hard to believe town Farkran doesn't reconsider when even players townreading him seem to think he's awful, because that's all i keep getting whenever i ask why he's town.
"well, i don't agree, but i like his fervor", or whatever it was you just said.
and i'm not calling him awful. to be clear. the issue here is i haven't seen evidence of Farkran really considering any outside opinions about... basically anything. well not the only issue but an issue.

Farkran: there are other things i'd like you to respond to but this post especially would be nice.

What do i have to respond, with regards to this post? Do you want to know why i am not reconsidering your slot, or Hectic's? I have no reason to, unless i can get another solve that could explain the current gamestate.

I did reconsider Replica, now i'm kinda reconsidering him

again

-but to a lesser extent- and i recently reconsidered Psyche. I'm also warming up to a Bingle flip, for everything that happened in his latest ISO and how the gamestate moved around him in the last few pages. I specifically claimed that, in a world where my reads are (were) all wrong, i'd turn to Amrun - even though i don't particularly trust her, if i can townlock her thanks to a flip, this game will be way easier for everyone, not just me. That's why i'm pushing so strong for a flip. It helps improving reads. Look at how the gamestate changed when i moved my vote to bingle. Everyone rushed back here trying to change/direct the day resolution. What do we gain from this, if we get no flip?

Do you still scumread me? Vote me. My hurt wagon has viability potential. But you are going to explain why, and where does a red or green Farkran flip get you. One more reason i'm not really fond of your slot is how you are dodging game-changing events, such as Suji's slip back in d1. I mean, that event and my vote on Bingle managed to shake off even Psyche - you are maybe the one who is reconsidering people the least, in this game. Second only to Replica, and perhaps Hectic.

[Replica]

Most of the case is based on Almidia's meta and posting, which i also townreaded at the time, so i largely agree with that. Bingle is occupying the same slot, but is behaving very differently, and not in a good way. His resistance to engage with the gamestate, and his progression about slots and which strategy to use is not pristine either.

I don't see how Replica could be "feeling better" about the slot when he entered d2 sheeping me with a hurt vote on hectic (sheeping Replica's highest scumread, no less),

or at least not to the extent Replica is townreading him right now, i.e. describing his lynch as "the brink of disaster". The problem is not the townread itself, it's the level of confidence displayed.

I had not meta'd alimdia Day 1. The "feeling better" comment comes exactly at the time that I first chose to metadive alimdia.

What's individually scummy about the Almidia/Bingle slot is almost entirely Bingle. Replica, have you meta'ed Bingle (or Jingle)?

Nope. Read enough Jingle games to know the amount of effort here isn't worthwhile, unlike alimdia/Chemist/Sujimichi who were worth a shot.

Why do you find that much unreasonable that scum!Almidia was engaged enough with the game to produce good content, while scum!Bingle doesn't want to?

First, it's not about them being engaged enough, it was that the way they questioned players and sought to investigate their motives is a world removed from their scumgames. Second, Bingle shares the same alignment as alimdia, but that is all. If I don't have an alignment read on one, the other suffices. Third, willingness to reread correlates more with cynicism, experience, and flippant approaches to the game more than it does being scum.

Why is town!Replica so confident in town!Bingle that you can't even imagine a Bingle/Farkran solve, same as Amrun does? Can you explain town!Bingle sheeping scum!Farkran, or even town!Farkran for that matter, just to 180° both his Hectic read and his solve strategy, with Almidia meta alone?

The fact that I think Bingle town is extremely likely suggests that I would find any team with Bingle very implausible, yes. Me/Amrun fundamentally disagree on Bingle.

I don't find Bingle scummy. Going through your points, resistance to rereading is indicative of cynicism and not taking the game as seriously, which correlates heavily with how long you've been playing, moreso than alignment. The strategy is obviously in line with my own.

The only point I find here is really that he 180'd on Hectic, but looking at it he was early sheeping you, made it clear he didn't really scumread Hectic but was just rolling with his TR, then moved to sheeping Nacho and buying the meta case. That's not great, but I really don't see a reason to shift this read.

[Farkran]

In 4 spare, sparing a scum instantly tanks our chance of winning below 25%. The strength of the strategy comes from how likely all-town spares are. In 3 spare, sparing a scum means that they won't be forced to remove one. I do not want my strongest scumread spared. I would rather take the spare I'm not sure about but can get a coalition behind than risk a scumread being spared or a bad lynch going through.

Lynching at all removes the possibility of 4 spare. For 3 spare, lynching wrong wastes a mislynch. Lynching my strongest TR means it is both likely to be wrong FMPOV and removes my ideal spare candidate. If a lynch does happen, I want it to be on my top scumread, not on my top townread.

The fact that it does not instantly lose the game does not exclude the day being labeled a disaster. I really don't know how much more obvious I can make this.

Not even your highest scumread wants to be spared in the first place, to be honest. In order to get spared, i would need a vote from Nacho (might deliver, since i am a tier 2 townread) and one more vote from {Chara, Replica, Hectic, Amrun}. None of them are even remotely close to consider sparing me. If you think i would selfhammer my spare, you are sorely wrong. That would pretty much amount to a scumclaim, after the extent i have been contrasting spares in general.

I still don't get why you are so desperate.

[Replica]

#1569 and #1571 lay out my thought process pretty clearly: I don't have many thoughts on Bingle, at least not about his alignment, but I don't really have to in order to read the slot. It's a bonus, and if he does anything to really outweigh the alimdia meta I'll revisit it, but for now....I don't see why I should doubt this slot, especially not over any other.

[Psyche]

see a lot here about how you're not confident he's scum but nothing that's a rationale for thinking he's scum

i mean it's in the post, you disagreeing with it doesn't make it not exist.

can you point where

[Farkran]

Other than one line at Nacho he hasn't blinked at all of the "these reads of Farkran's are batshit crazy he can't be scum" lines. Somehow me saying "Yeah if he's scum he's playing poorly imo" has caused the steam to rise considerably.

this too. it's what i meant when i wondered why a town Farkran hasn't reconsidered at all. he says he doesn't have a large ego but i feel like receiving townreads for that sort of reason would be really annoying and/or prompt some reconsideration.

...where did i say i don't have a large ego? I have a enormous ego. Having a huge ego doesn't mean i am confident in my reads though, just in me being better than everyone else in this game, in this forum, or the universe.

Jokes aside, i never said i have a large ego. I do. I'm... only partially proud of it, sometimes it gets me in trouble more than what it's worth. I'm trying to tone down my tendency at thinking myself better than everyone else, after Normal 2106.

[Amrun]

In fact my best solve is bingle/farkran but I feel better about bingle dying today, although his recent posting is better but all mechanical so NAI.

If Farkran suddenly becomes viable I’d try there first.

recent push on Bungle?

Absolutely yes. I don’t think it makes it more or less likely.

[Amrun]

Farkran: why can scum never spare vote you? also, who exactly are you townreading now? i am currently rereading your posting and it's probably in there, but if you could restate any townreads that would help me understand your partner solves. do you still think me/Hectic is likely?

Psyche: not comfortable sparing Farkran right now.

Amrun: is Bingle's posting still mostly NAI to you? i've come around to the fact he's at least reading minimally enough to say something.

I think his more recent posting is starting to have some meaning to it, but I don’t think him coming in and blindly sheeping Farkran because Farkran was the only one pushing something, then changing his mind when he knew enough about the game to know that Farkran’s reads are pants on head, is indicative either way.

[Amrun]

I’d say somewhere around traitor

so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it

I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.

[Chara]

there's more to reply to, but i'm not talking about reconsidering a read or reacting to the gamestate, i'm talking about things like taking criticism, or having your opinion changed through the opinion of a different player. team town play. when you said i was being confusing i made a concentrated effort to be less confusing and have hopefully been less so since.

not everyone plays like that. i gave Wisdom as an example of someone who often doesn't (i think he still has his title for that), but there are plenty.

i want you to respond to my assertion that the players townreading you don't seem to listen to you. there was Bingle, but he was sheeping and said he hadn't looked at the case. do you think they should listen? do you wonder why they don't? is my actual assertion wrong and you are being listened to? am i wrong to say the players TRing you don't like your play? that's what i want to know. it's information i could mine from the thread but that just isn't feasible for me right now and i'd like your opinion anyway.

also, your case on me and Hectic remains something scum could have done but a situation that also has a town explanation, as Hectic already pointed out.

as for dodging game-changing events; i gave my opinion on that when it happened. that's not dodging, it's disagreeing.

and given how much i've gone back and forth on you, i find it rather inaccurate to say i haven't been reconsidering anything either.

i'm not going to vote you because i'm not confident you'll flip scum. i want to spare. if i can't spare Hectic then i have other options for that. if you flip red you flip red. if you flip green you flip green.

[Amrun]

Anything changed with regards to your Nacho/Farkran reads since then, Chemist?

I did townlean Almidia, but the recent Bingle has made me reconsider that significantly. Bingle's progression that made him go from "i sheep farkran: vote hectic" to "i sheep nacho: heal hectic" to "i am 100% determined i will not lynch today: heal farkran" to "i want to unheal farkran but i'm VLA until the deadline is over and i'm not going to change my vote first"... is bad. Really, really bad. It's like forcing a fake associative on me, because Amrun said he would lynch me if bingle flipped red. Psyche and Replica healing there is also very meh. Especially psyche, who didn't even include Almidia in his fotm sparelist that would lead us to a "so easy victory i don't know how you all can't see it" back in d1. I can buy a Bingle/Psyche team.

He's probably reading too much into the "unvoting heal tag is hard on mobile" thing, but despite our

differences

, I do agree with the rest of the sentiment in this post.

Then vote Bingle.

[Replica]

I'm still floored that I am actually being asked to justify why I think it would be a bad idea to follow my strongest scumread in a lynch on my strongest townread

[Replica]

Really Replica? Can you not

even imagine

a world where we are in fact both scum? Why are you opposing this lynch so much?

somebody please kill me