Mini Normal 2146: Cute Pets Game Over, Town wins

[Emperor flippyNips]

I got nervous I thought that was L1. I had a rough idea of how many votes on me, but I was wrong about how many it takes to kill

[Hiraki]

Hiraki: Meh. Getting mostly nothings from him. I find myself opposed to his stances and not really understanding where he's coming from. I'm hoping to see this change soon. I'd be fine with getting some pressure here.

hey, what wagon are you on? who is currently in the front there?

[Hiraki]

Curious. I fail to see the town motivation in being ardently anti-townbloc - it doesn't accomplish anything to take apart townreads. I can see several angles where it's useful for scum to discredit it though.

You fail to see the town motivation in having an opinion? Can understand why it might be a bit touchy talking about your predecessor!

I find myself opposed to his stances and not really understanding where he's coming from.

both points about me were that you didn't like that i distrust and dislike town blocs, something that is not super radical - ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Battle Mage: Espe was towny. I reeeally liked 99. Battle Mage himself is... fine? Looking forward to developing this more.

????????????????????????? this is upper echelon so a town read??????????

also why is that everyone who is "lynchbait" is at the top of your list? scum =/= lynchbait?

The traitor stuff is legit, and he's trying to scumhunt and getting frustrated that it's not working.

disregarding the first part, why can't scum also be frustrated with "scumhunting" that isn't working? because he's new?

unvote, vote: hoopla

reareading this sequence of posts, there's only a 2 minute time-stamp between these two posts. is that enough time to read the last three pages to scan for votes then post again?

are you really doubting this?

he'd have to have posted, then gone back immediately and scanned the last three pages and counted his votes - that's if he knew exactly where the last mod VC was, and wasn't spending time looking for that. also, judging by the capitalisation of these two posts compared to his iso, it looks like he's phone posting (autocorrect often capitalises for you), and his other non-capitalised posts are desktop posts. if he's on his phone, that's generally harder to navigate and scan for votes on yourself than a desktop. well, at least for me, i find it harder navigating the game on a phone...

this took me less than 2 minutes

I counted the most recent then ISO’d the mod then counted up to most recent again it wasn’t that hard

why did you claim before knowing how many votes you were sitting on?

really????

[notscience]

Rereading and actually applying myself because Klick’s entirely right that im coasting and I need to not be.

Spoiler: The Reread

I still don’t like Espe’s 37 for the same thing as before- it didn’t happen and it’s strange to apply stuff not in the thread to someone as town- typically means you don’t care to divine their alignment. I digress.

Hoopla’s 64 isn’t as bad upon second read. I understand this is gonna be taken as backpedaling on what I said earlier but I can’t really help if I’m backpedaling on coasting reads and taking it seriously.

Espe’s 99 where he elaborates on what he expected from his reaction test is alright sans the part where he still hadn’t answered my question. Seems like alright scumhunting and upon reflection the Cooldog thing makes sense.

Cooldog’s 105 makes a fair amount of sense but it seems a bit overenthusiastic for how early the game is. But most of his “making sense” is just proper play spec.

Prana’s 112 reads very much like parroting. I don’t really think ive seen much in the way of original thought from him thus far. 136 is much of the same.

Gypyx’s 143 actually is pretty good. I like the stance re:gobbles. Its just kinda more in depth than my coasting opinion of gobble was.

Gobble’s 148 is a good response to the aforementioned stance. It seems pretty on par with how gobble said he was looking to play the game- by making certain things happen and gauging the reads off them. I don’t think its necessarily scummy to be on an early wagon to get things rolling- its remaining on it when its rolling while not scumreading them.

One trend from Cooldog’s gameplay I’ve noticed thus far (149) is it seems very integral on optimal townplay- which is both good and bad. On the one hand it makes his life (if scum) harder, but it allows pretty easy reads to hide behind too. I like the jump off gyp and onto hoopla- I didn’t at first but when I think about it- giving town as little info as possible is a base scum thing to do, yes. I don’t really think that was hoopla’s intent and it does seem a bit basic, but I think at its core hes pushing something he believes in.

I like renaissance’s replace in, still. I think its funny that everyone in that slot starts out on a scumread with me and ends in a townread but rereading I kinda get it.

I like Gobble’s 183. I didnt notice it before but its a fair point in my focus primarily on how hes playing even though hiraki was playing similar- I have this subconscious predisposition to how I expected Hiraki to play (condescending questions) and it fit pretty accurately. I don’t think I’ve played against scum-hiraki ever, and my knowledge of how he is comes from games 5+ years ago. I know I feel way different now than I did when I started, I suppose its fair to hold others to a similar standard. I think hes pointing out a lot of inconsistencies that I honestly didnt notice before. I am definitely starting to think he’s town.

I could maybe buy town-paranoia in Gyp’s 190. Like a tinfoil theory without declaring it a tinfoil theory, however it still does feel weird coming from a new person. I like him acknowledging it in 199, I feel like its typically harder for scum to feel comfortable admitting they are scumming.

I agree with the sentiment behind Agar’s 207. But I think him as well as Cooldog are very wrapped up in optimal play when honestly, town doesnt play optimally. Yeah it doesnt make sense they dont but human error is the big reason most games are as difficult as they are. I still get townvibes.

Hoopla’s 208 makes more sense to me upon reread and I find myself agreeing with it now. Like full on, more than my initial skepticism. I think the traitor thing is important to remember lategame but I think paranoid tinfoilly town makes more sense re:gyp. I do think Hoopla’s making a lot of points I agree with now that im knuckling down and I am thinking town.

Prana’s 214 is more of the same- its literally just paraphrasing the thread. And a vote on CD with no reasoning? He says CD is his biggest suspicion without any real oomph. That seems like a pattern thus far. Scum?

I agree with Hoopla’s 218 and 219. I think Prana flew under the radar a lot when im rereading and I’m not really sure how.

I agree with most of Hiraki’s stances on 227. I don’t really understand how he intends to play the game without trusting anyone else, but I digress.

Gobbles 228 is good-posting. I think I was so shocked at the claim I kinda tunneled on it before.

I can see Agar’s stances in 230 coming from town but I no longer agree with them.

Still like Hiraki’s 235 like I did before. I do think now I view Hoopla more as trying to bridge a gap than anything else. I am getting super huge “Get off my lawn” vibes from cooldog this game and I don’t have the experience to know if he does this as a particular alignment or not. 242 makes a fair amount of sense for hte vote as well.

Una is also flying under the radar but I dont think all the scum is playing that same way.

I like 249 from Gyp because he has no reason to keep referring to something everyone keeps bringing up but he is trying to work with people to figure out his read.

More surface level from Prana 251 but he is starting to take some stances now.

I wish Cooldog was doing more to get Hoopla lynched. He both seems so certain and committed in his posts but I feel like there should be more drive there.

Prana finally gives reasoning to vote CD in 286. Idk how I feel about him pretending it was super obvious that’s what CD was trying to do when he hasnt really mentioned it in pages- more of his recent stuff has been about Hoopla

Gobble’s reads in 294 kinda match with mine. I’m currently at- Gobbles, Hoopla, Gyp, Hiraki, ren town, agar leantown. Kinda curious on the CD condition but I know im waiting.
Reply with quote
319 from Una is exact opposite of how I feel- I fully agree with the townlist there.

325 I disagree with. I think Hoopla’s been pretty vocal when sharing her townread reasons. I am a townblocer like that too but I still try to look for scum, but so much of this back and forth has been cooldog not liking townhunting. I think if hoopla did a gradient scale for the rest of the players on preference there might not be a cd vote on her.

More una in the background..

Agreeing with CD’s 360.

I like Hiraki’s 411 because i dont really think scum has to try and understand how Hoopla is thinking to approach the game. I like it in the frame of all of his other posts even if I dont agree about the ren suspicion. Hoopla’s calling out of the Ren suspicion in 418 is good as well.

Flippy beetlejuice 421, more baseline lurking from una 434

437 from Prana- There seems to be a lot of people professing to be stronger later in the day. I like the flippy vote.

452 from nippy- How many god damn “not an early game players” do we have this game jesus christ.

I do notice a big uptic in Nippy’s posting when he has pressure on him vs when he doesn’t- but I also garner that isnt super alignment indicative (from what Hoopla’s been saying all game).

471 is Una scolding gobbles? I kinda like the flippant way he goes about it? I don’t see scum playing like this.

488 I only am comfortable with nippy out of this list.

Una’s bunch of posts starting at 515 all feel really good. I do see the points of him ignoring his vote and pushing me all day but hes kept a pretty constant trajectory and stances. I like his read on me in particular (just the way it was phrased felt townie)

Nippy’s string of posts from 527 all feel relatively town.

572 only took 3 days and being called out for coasting…

I like Agar’s points in 626. Still heavily leaning town on him. Gobble is falling down my list a bit.

646 from Prana… I really think he should be one of the leading wagons. Hes not really doing anything.

I agree with all of BM’s reads on 738. None of them are safe reads, and I agree with them, but why don’t I like this post? 749 is awful too- not for the rolefishing it feels like one of those people at fancy dinners who talk shit about everything and do that HOHOHO laugh and pretend like its just so droll.

I disagree with 766 but feel like it’s town thought process.

I really like 797 from Una. I dont see that kinda frustration post coming frm scum.

Spoiler: the reads

Klick- Town. Admittedly sorted before reread but I have townread everyone in that slot.

Hoopla- Town. Still not a huge fan of the ren post but I find myself agreeing with a lot of what shes saying and think scumreads on her feel more playstyle based.

Agar- Town. Liking the attention to detail and trying to corral the troops with the gobbles wagon. Even though I disagree wrt gobbles I think hes genuinely trying to rally apathetic town.

Gyp- Town. I see the newbtown upon reread. Easily.

Hiraki- Town. A lot of good points and I particularly like how he approached Hoopla.

Cooldog- Leantown. I’ve liked Cooldog’s posting as the game has gone on.

Una- Leantown. I just dont feel scum when Im reading his ISO but I feel like I should be? Like I dont think hes been like a paragon of towniness but tonally he just sounds town with the timing and inflection of some of his posts.

Gobbles- Leantown. I liked a lot of his early points but Agar has some decent stances wrt him that I can’t argue with thats bumping him down some.

Nippy- Null/leantown. Reminds me of like TIP.

Bob- ??? I didnt like LQ’s entry and he hasnt dont anything yet but i have a lot of townreads so his read looks worse comparatively.

BM- Leanscum- Tonally and I just think everyone else looks townier than him.

Prana- Scum. I get he doesnt want to play the spam game like everyone else I just feel like most of his stances are super safe and not groundbreaking and has managed to fly entirely under the radar for the whole day. Like good under the radar not being a lurker but making just enough content to not get called out for it and nothing too controversial to draw attention to yourself. I dont really think anyone has quantified a read on this slot all game.

I don't think its likely all the scum are in the lurkers. I could see Prana/BM/??? and maybe im wrong on gobbles or CD? But I feel much better about a lynch between them.

[Hoopla]

i definitely believe this is flippy's role. it seems far too weird/creative for flippy to just pull out of a hat, especially when it has role-confirming properties to it. so, now the question becomes is this role more likely scum or town aligned?

~~

I counted the most recent then ISO’d the mod then counted up to most recent again it wasn’t that hard

I even did it mobile! :Lol:

Oh you talked about me doing it mobile already. I didn’t finish reading what you said

^ this sequence of posts makes me believe my timing tell is not relevant. you can see he responds without thinking or even reading all of the posts in the game. that explains why he claimed without being fully aware of the game state. my intuition is that this is slightly more town-indicative, as i imagine scum to be more likely to check the game situation before compulsively locking themself into a claim - it's at least more of a consideration as scum. you just have to consider the gamestate more when you're deceiving. whereas, i find town often just compulsively spew out the truth of their role even when it's suboptimal. there's less mental barriers filtering their play (this also applies to reads and thought processes in general - the more lucid the better)

when i used to study day 1 claiming patterns in mini normals, i would track unprompted d1 roleclaims (for this data set, "unprompted" meant any roleclaim at L-2 or less and outside of the last 48 hours of the Day) and town overwhelmingly leak their role compared to scum. generally speaking, it would be the weaker/newer/more impulsive players that would claim unprompted (amazingly, town PR's would sometimes do it even on just 1 or 2 votes), but i rarely observed scum claim well before they needed to. my assumption why this pattern exists: scum (especially inexperienced scum) prefer to keep as many fakeclaiming options open as late as they possibly can - the more options the better. so they're less likely to lock themselves into something early.

~~

from a setup spec perspective, i also think this role has more utility/interesting interactions from a town perspective. so, my gut says this claim is town.

UNVOTE:

for now...

[notscience]

Hiraki what do you think of prana? I saw you didnt like some of his early stuff but there isnt too much mention of him in your ISO.

pedit- I agree that town claims at stupid times super often

[Hoopla]

are you really doubting this?

i was definitely doubting the timing when i first saw it. i don't now.

turns out i am just

Spoiler:

old

[Hiraki]

yeah, i need to think about that. i haven't been reading him very much because his posts are

stale

- i can do that right now though

p-edit: shrug

[notscience]

Spoiler: Letter to Hoopla

Dearest Hoopla,
As the second longest member of the townbloc I do wish to inquire of your availability in a matter most important to me. I do believe you will find your intentions line up, and as such, hereby extend this invitation to you. We begin a wagon on sir Prana. Now, I know this is rather uncouth, given it is a vanity wagon this late in the day, however I do believe this will allow us to remove some of the ruffians that have invaded our fair city.

Please respond posthaste, I look forward to your response.

notsci

[Hiraki]

yeah im gonna need something to be convinced to go on prana - i remembered my "problem" with him and it's that he gives weird posts but they're not actually

weird

, that's just how he posts

[notscience]

Honestly my biggest issue with him is how he’s been under the radar all game. I think he’s sitting exactly where scum would hide best and that deserves scrutiny- I don’t really remember ANYONE having anything substantial to say about him- and he’s the only real player sans bob who’s just catching up as his lurking predecessor never said anything either. He’s not making waves and he’s in that bunch of people saying they’re late game players like that gets taken into account when deciding to Lynch d1?

[notscience]

Looking at the recent vc I like who’s on the floppy wagon way more than the gobble wagon and that’s giving me the heebie jeebies- sans agar that wagon is leantowns at best.

[Hoopla]

dear notscience,

i am making this letter public.

i appreciate you reaching out to me, but i regret to inform you that your stock has been plummeting in recent times. you sadly do not have the town cache to be calling the shots. it pains me to say, as you have been a serviceable ally... but these are different times.

in saying this; prana is decent choice, but i suspect upon the collapse of flippy's wagon, the embers of una's wagon will catch alight, and i am suspicious of you pushing hard for prana now. if una is scum, you may be my top pick.

to assuage my fears, please explain your read on una, because i can't really follow why you think he's town. this the complete collection of times you've mentioned him:

I don’t really wanna wagon una barring the weird question that’s already been asked being repeated?

I liked my interactions with una so far so leantown there

Una I honestly thought was town from his first vote on me, but he’s frankly kinda forgettable. I need to iso him

I never did get to iso una so let me do it. I still liked his early stuff

And I did read una but I really don’t get the case on him? I feel like more people than him have been questioning townblocking this game so what makes him so special

240 is especially weird. what interactions did you have with him that you liked?

plz respond

[notscience]

That was prior to my reread and adjusting everything but I will answer to the best oh my memory. I do mention him a fair amount In my reread spoiler to if you have the time to peruse it.

224 was when he was asking something that had already been answered and I had to call it out

I liked when we first chatted about his read on me and that’s honestly been one of my favorite parts of him this game is his read on me. It feels genuine.

I do think he’s fairly town upon reread tonally but I don’t think it all lines up perfectly to put him in my upper echelon reads- I do wish he’d been more proactive getting me lynched because I did feel as though his read was genuine.

His inflection at times just sounds town. It’s happened multiple times this game for him specifically, I can’t format on my phone but I can on the computer tomorrow if you want further elaboration, however I think most of it is touched on in my reread.

[notscience]

I’m assuming you used control f because I had also been referring to him as umbreonage in my iso

[Hoopla]

I’m assuming you used control f because I had also been referring to him as umbreonage in my iso

mmm i did.

fair enough

[Hoopla]

His inflection at times just sounds town. It’s happened multiple times this game for him specifically, I can’t format on my phone but I can on the computer tomorrow if you want further elaboration, however I think most of it is touched on in my reread.

i only remember playing scum with him, so any time i notice something tonally from him, it's stuff matching that. i'm not well acquainted with his town meta, so i admit i have a biased lens here. maybe tomorrow show me the posts you noticed a town inflection so i can look into it more.

in the mean time, i'm going to get the ball rolling

VOTE: unabombah

[notscience]

It’s not a meta read at all I have only played with hiraki agar (I think) you farside and klick from this game before and I’m not really metaing any of you sans base playstyle stuff. Will do, however.

[gobbledygook]

I am very sick right now so I will not be posting much for the next few days

[UnaBombaH]

Klick had a few clear mistakes regarding me in their catchup. But since it has been declared scummy to "defend yourself", I'll just have to see how much bullshitting can sway the votes.
Hoopla is misreading my tone/intentions completely. Especially if she really thinks there's something similar here to my scumgame.

I think flippynips is the type of player who could whip out a claim like that as either alignment.
My honest read is that their claim is NOT alignment-indicative.
Other than that, I still think they are on the towny side off null.
They just have consistency issues.

[notscience]

I for one would like to know those mistakes and you can hide them in a spoiler tag and I won’t tell anyone you were defending yourself tia

[UnaBombaH]

If it wasn't for the detriment of the current wagons, I'd be happy enough to move my vote back to the renaissance-slot.
I still think Gobbledy flips red though, so once we are done with that flip, we can continue on to klick.

The one who called them a revolving door, and obv.town or whatever, has also earned some scummy-points.
Can't check it out now, but I believe that might be a teammate giving their support to a slot that just doesn't like playing scum.

[UnaBombaH]

I can't recall what Una thinks about anything that isn't the Traitor Problem.

Then you haven't tried. I said plenty.
Futhermore, one of the reasons I wanted to harp on Gypyx so much, was to try and create discussion around the slot in general.
I believe it should've helped all of us. If not today, then maybe tomorrow.

Una's 519 goes back to giving me bad vibes. Una's scumreads line up exactly with Hoopla's townbloc, with everyone else going 'just below the null line' at worst. That's not natural town thought. He also has much more concrete reasons for suspecting all of notscience/Gypyx/gobble, but votes renaissance for elusive reasons.

Klick assumes my lynchpool is Hooplas townblock BECAUSE they are in there.
I thought I said it from the start, but I think Hoopla is town, and the group just happens to include most all of the slots I found to be suspicious at the time.
Hence - I wanted wagons in that group and wasn't going to be too picky about who.
Mainly to get some reactions - mostly because I felt like we'd be more likely to get an actual red flip.
At the time, gobbledy/renaissance/gypyx were the ones who felt reasonable, but I didn't want Gypyx wagoned because I knew the discussion would devolve back into Traitor-talk etc.
And I felt like renaissance had just recently made the worst posts out of the two remaining.

I'm getting the vibe that if Una is scum, at least one of his partners is actually in Hoopla's townbloc.

His vote has danced around enough in that group

that there's something whack going on there.

Like said, that group is poorly formed, and just happens to include most all of my scumreads.
I bolded this part from your quote because it made me chuckle.
I had literally voted in a RvS-manner with a completely random vote for funsies, before making my first serious vote on notscience.
After that wagon didn't feel like it could be the one for today, AND I had stirred the discussion around Gypyx, I felt like Gobbledy and Renaissance were the two slots worthy of my vote.
Chose renaissance -> they replaced out.
So I move my vote to Gobbledy with the hopes that we might actually get a lynch going.

So in fact three votes, and one of the switches was "forced" by a replacement.
Talk about a misrep with that quote.

So you've reasserted this a few times now. Why do you believe it? Hoopla herself has said she plays very similarly to this as either alignment. Yet you've fairly consistently held her as 'misguided town'. Why do you townread Hoopla?
Actually looking back now,

you don't list your read on Hoopla at all in 519

...

I believe their posting has been genuine.
I believe scum!Hoopla, while able and willing to keep their allies close, wouldn't outright declare a townblock in a game where it has been specifically outed that they like to play with a close-knit group as scum.
I think their reads have some level of truth to them, even if the final assessment of alignment is wrong.
And again bolded the part with a clear mistake.
Hoopla isn't separately mentioned, but they are included just as much as everyone else in that townblock.
They included themselves in that list, and therefore they included themselves in my lynchpool for D1.

[UnaBombaH]

The site doesn't allow me to post, but whenever it will again - here we go.

^^There, and not even spoiler-tagged.
Think of that what you will.
And if you can't read that part about Hoopla being in their own list, then I guess you will find that scummy as well.

I believe Klick is either riding a wave of conf.bias throughout their catchup, or they are just scum.

One of my theories about that townbloc and how the scum in it might act, is the fact that they'd want to all "townread" Hoopla in return, and protect their own position in the group.
Even though that slot has been replaced twice already, Renaissance and Klick both fit that bill.
What I find interesting, is that there's this weird thing going on between Klicks slot, Gobbledy and notscience.

Earlier, Renaissance voted for Gobble just to vote there for a moment.

Eh, I'm out of time actually. I liked notscience's recent interactions with me a little.

VOTE: gobbled

I'm just gonna park here with some townreads for now.

Pedit: I'll be back later!

..and literally a MINUTE later..

Oh wait, this is better.
VOTE: CoolDog

Notice how in the same post where they vote for Gobble, they jam in the comment about notscience not being so scummy after all.
Then a vote, followed by an immediate change to somewhere else.
I would've loved to return to that later after some time had passed and renaissance would've probably made some other mistakes with their positioning, but didn't have a change before they had already replaced out.

Now, Klick has the opposite trajectory, where notscience ends up on the scummier side, and Gobble ends up in the townpile.
If my earlier suspicions on renaissance were correct, then Klick is more aware of where the wagons currently are, and piling on Gobbledy would legitimately risk them getting lynched today.
Meanwhile notscience doesn't have a solid wagon on them, and might also be a less likely lynch for D1 anyway.

I'm not HONESTLY thinking I have the full scumteam on lock as early as this, but I feel like there's a vibe in gobbledy-klick-notscience.
I feel like Gypyx is supposed to be dragged on for the ride, because they are more easily mislynched later.
I could be slotted in a position like that as well, but since I am very vocally questioning the townblock and specifically these few slots, I am a choice for a lynch D1.

[Gypyx]

I kinda think that if Flippy was a scum fruit vendor, who wanted to come up with additional utility on his role, he wouldn't add gunsmith to his role

but if we have something like a cop or a not-so gated vigilante, i kinda see scum having that exact role

UNVOTE: