micro 951 mystery box of silver gnine: well we're done here.

[hari]

statistically the more excited I am to play w u the more likely it is that one of us is scum so

adapting this logic for myself in order to VOTE: hellbooks.

@Olórin are you hectic

this seems like a fair assumption since hectic was part of the magus hydra from mystery box of silver sevings and olorin's opening here appears to be a direct reference to hectic's opening from mystery box of silver hate:

viewtopic.php?p=11736760#p11736760

[v[fishy logic[/v]

bad opener

uh guys
Fishy Logic are scum
like actually scum

why?

[hari]

shiki is that you?

is hellbooks errantparabola? is wooper the worst? i cannot remember.

[hari]

but would town feel the need to prepare something?

what did you think of olorin's opening?

why?

u curious or u disagree?
I'm cool elaboratin after this but this is imrpotat

fishy logic's opening did not seem scummy to me. i basically thought of it in the same way skitter described here:

i feel like fishy logic's opener was prepared and would have been posted as either alignment, no?

I think nadhai/ksitter is a meta convo and it doesn't really interest me very much and I don't think either of u accidentally drops an interesting tell atp

it is strange to me that you think nahdia and skitter's conversation about whether or not it is scummy to prepare an opening post is not alignment indicative when nahdia chose fishy logic's post specifically when they could have applied the same logic to scumread other posts and chose not to.

VOTE: nahdia

why did you vote bugspray?

[hari]

olorin is town.

hm. why?

[hari]

i dont see scum making that claim so early. its potentially verifiable and will lead to wayyyy too much scrutiny in subsequent days. unless scum has watering abilities and can prevent the IC trigger.

does it not seem eerily similar to hectic's claim from last game?:

viewtopic.php?p=11736760#p11736760

[hari]

i'm not sure why it being similar to his claim from last time would indicate that it's not town-indicative

i think it is not alignment indicative. hectic's claim was partially true in mystery box hate and it is possible that olorin's claim is truthful here but that doesn't seem super likely to me.

[hari]

yeah it does. you think similar entry ergo hectic alt and similar claim ergo riding off of true claim last game to fake-claim this game? whats the point in fake-claiming like that in post 0? and why are you lurking?

i think the similarities make it less likely to be true here and that it isn't scum indicative for hectic to fake claim at the start of a game as he has done so in multiple games. sometimes i am busy and sometimes i do not see something i would like to comment on.

[hari]

are you just trying to say that the claim is nai and may or may not be true?

yes. i am saying that the claim is not alignment indicative and may not be true.

[hari]

that was a ... very confusing way to try to say that

sorry

yeah at first it sounded like you were saying we should view the claim as AI and scum-indicative. hmmmm
HMMMMMMMMM

i said explicitly that it isn't scum indicative for hectic to fake claim:

i think the similarities make it less likely to be true here and that it isn't scum indicative for hectic to fake claim at the start of a game as he has done so in multiple games. sometimes i am busy and sometimes i do not see something i would like to comment on.

[hari]

pretty much exactly what votato and skitter have said. likely comes from town. if he is scum, the dehydrated claim is likely still true, though perhaps not with the same outcomes. cant see scum fakeclaiming something reliant on another role like that.

i guess i don't understand why you (and others) are so willing to accept that the claim is truthful, but this probably isn't alignment indicative as i've had prior experience with hectic making a claim of this sort and it being generally met with acceptance. i have been viewing it very similarly to fishy logic's post (as a prepared opener) instead of as a real claim.

[hari]

and @hari claiming something that can make you ic feels like a thing scum probably doesn't do imo?

but why not? like if olorin says 'give me enough water and i will become an ic' and there isn't a water mechanic, what is the risk?

[hari]

ah. good point. it feels like a weird thing to make up entirely out of nowhere tho, like the last time it was at least partially related to his real role

i don't think it would be out of nowhere as the game is called (at least in signups it was) a jolly drought and the claim seems to be based on last game.

olorin is town, and the claim is real.
olorin is scum, and the claim is totally fabricated. i think this is unlikely because of how he claimed he'll die n1 if he's not hydrated. it seems to presuppose there is another role in the game that can hydrate.
olorin is scum, but the dehydrated claim is true. i can see us being in this world. i dont think scum would have a role that could suicide n1, and obviously the IC would need to be fake in this scenario. but it's possible he gets something good out of being hydrated, and wants to direct a role that can do so towards him.

olorin is town and the claim is fake is a definite possibility. hectic maintained the fake aspects of his claim in mystery box hate alongside the real aspect for almost the entirety of the game and he maintained a fake claim in blitz 2 until he died in the night, both as town.

[hari]

[hari]

Do we know each other? Or are you just a fan of my oeuvre.

i am both a fan of your oeuvre as well as a fan of bell hooks' oeuvre.

Guess that Gladiate was fake, Wooper knew before hand im calling it now!

did you think that the gladiate might have been real?

they literally just did a hammer like that in blitz2.

err, 3. you know what i mean.

viewtopic.php?p=11886507#p11886507

Interesting scumslip here. You seem to know that a wagon you're voting for is about to flip town

i don't really think this was scummy of votato; i had kinda the same thought reading fishy logic's reaction.

hari is the player i forgot was even in the game and usually when thats the case the person is scum this has ltierally happened to me twice so im pretty sure thats somehow a good way gfor me to read

you made the exact same read of me when you were mafia and i was town in micro 932: a normal blitz: viewtopic.php?p=11704326#p11704326

someone else maybe to watch out for shiki? like when im trying to think of ppl in the game without reading it usually the people who im least likely to remember have ended up being scum. i know this definitely happened to me in micro 911 where amrun was a lurky scum

[hari]

the knife thing sounds like an asspull

so the most sense i can make of the knife thing is that it is related to this (which was referenced by your opening post though later explained by you as having to do with a doctor, i believe):

no one will have a degree in psychology, though this does not stop them from practicing it.

since a psychologist in mafia terms is an investigative role that determines a players ability to kill,

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Psychologist

and the knife could possibly not grant the ability to kill but still return false positives? or possibly it is said to grant the ability to kill but someone practicing psychology investigating them would find that they actually could not?

the knife is a weird claim for bugspray to have wholly invented, but i don't know if it's town indicative.

[hari]

the no degree bit is making me think that if there is someone with a psychologist-esque ability that they can't trust their results and the purpose of the knife could also be a way for them to learn this, in which case it makes sense that the gifting of something like that would be public during the day.

[hari]

from my point of view, i really do not think they're town.

if the knife exists and actually grants the ability to kill, it seems it would likely be a mafia claim that was also restricted to only being given to town or something like that, which is potentially an alternative explanation for the failure of the gift beyond 'i didn't say end of day' since that bit really stands out to me.

[hari]

could someone unvote bugspray momentarily please.

[hari]

How would that work? If this is true, wouldn't it be compulsive to hand out the knife, since otherwise mafia should just not hand it out?

it could be compulsive or it could be that mafia would only give it to a town they thought would kill another town. or, it could simply not actually grant a kill or not exist at all. it just seems like a weird thing for bugspray to invent.

but seriousyl did nobody target me and then get a weird result because i was commuting? i feel like at least SOMEONE would have mehcanical confirmation that im not lying

a) why do you think someone would have targeted you last night?
b) had someone targeted you and gotten a weird result because you were commuting and thus had mechanical confirmation that you were not lying about the commuting part at least for night one, how would that help that player to determine if you were town or mafia here?

when i look up "rolefishing" on the mafiascum dot net wiki page, this quote shows up as an example

when i looked up 'rolefishing' i also found these:

If there's another role out there which makes this knife claim make sense, it might actually be worth claiming to validate bugspray's claim. Because currently, I read their tone as town, but the claim just doesn't make any sense.

How many town prs does everyone think we have?

None of the claimed PRs seem to have any kind of water power. So is the claim a lie or a red herring?

[hari]

Thank you for not saying what you think it is.

was this sarcastic?

[hari]

a) why do you think someone would have targeted you last night?
Because my hammer was sus as fuck
Then schasd told me I didn't do it right and still have the knife so now I was h like fuck I'm gonna get false positived and flash nislynched which puts scum in a really good lylo better commute so that doesn't happen
b) had someone targeted you and gotten a weird result because you were commuting and thus had mechanical confirmation that you were not lying about the commuting part at least for night one, how would that help that player to determine if you were town or mafia here? Is scum commuter a common thing?

i guess i was more asking why you thought there would be another town player able to target you when you are aware of nahdia's role and you are claiming a power role yourself, but in a roundabout way. i do not believe scum commuter to be a common thing.

[hari]

could someone unvote bugspray momentarily please.

UNVOTE:

thankyou.

I'm not asking anyone to say they are a PR, I'm just asking, for a friend, how many people think exist in a micro.

a pr is more likely to say a higher number in this situation, no? asking these sorts of questions just gives selective information.

Do you think that there is a 4th PR that is going to miraculously be water giving?

if i say 'yes' to this, do you not assume something about my potential role? really not following as to how these aren't role fishing.

No.

why did you inquire as to whether you are supposed to guess if you thought votato should not guess?

friendly neighbourhood reminder that "a role that 1-shot give away a basically vig shot in a Micro game and that is also a commuter and also has to use the incredibly specific wording in order for it to work" is a complete lie and will be eating rope by the end of today

i think bugspray is by far the most likely to be mafia currently but another day ending extremely prematurely does not seem beneficial.

[hari]

And wondering about how many town prs we might have is legit in scum hunting because someone's lying.

i strongly believe there to be at least 4, including nahdia.

[hari]

I'd hope that peoples ideas of how many town prs would be allowed to balance a 2 person scum team wouldnt vary that much from either alignment.

I mean, if Bugs is right and there is only 1 vt, then what the fuck are all those prs doing at night?

I seriously doubt that any mod would over load a micro unless it was advertized as role madness.

again, i am pretty sure that there are at least 4, nahdia included, and that is with me taking into account that bugspray is unlikely to be town. what have you gained from this information?

I mean, if you have a role that is water based and you dont feel like outing it right now, you could always just not. I would have no way of knowing if you were keeping something a secret, so would have no reason to doubt your answer.

Realistically we are getting to the point where we are trying to wade through the claims. At some point we are going to have to talk about what is going on. And just because you say role fishing a lot doesnt make you right all the time.

i am fine with a massclaim. the picture i posted to begin the day was not random.

Because vota wasnt the one who made the original statement, so I want to hear what the person who said it meant by it before vota is able to make a guess.

If vota says something else that the OP didnt think of, it taints things. You really want people who ask questions of others to have a little leeway and some space.

if we are going to massclaim i'd like hellbooks to explain what her reason was beforehand, though i would like votato to explain what he thought hellbooks reason was first.

Last time I played q schadd hectic had a wacko post restriction and was immunocompromised which is way more wack than me

the post restriction was a lie.

[hari]

i am fine with a massclaim.

If this is a true statement why are you even worried about if im role fishing or not?

You seem eager to have everything out in the open, while i was just talking about generalities at this point.

i have become eager to have everything out in the open because the way you are going about it seems to be to gain information without everyone necessarily having it. like you are trying to learn things without everyone else learning them because you know to look for the information in the answers you gain because you are the one asking the questions.

[hari]

No, vota can say if thats what he thought it was or if he thought something different.

seems better to have votato explain what he thought the reason would be because his statement seems like a more advantageous one for scum to make to me. i guess if you think votato is townier in general your order makes sense but i'd rather have votato first hellbooks second.

[hari]

It would make sense if you understood how i see the game, more like a puzzle than anything else. Once we have enough pieces in the right place, or have tried the wrong piece in enough places the game starts to look a little clearer, and one way to do that is with more information.

So, I guess I don't see what the issue is because i'm always going to have info that you dont, and im going to have a history that you dont, so...

sure this is true of me as well; much of what i have been good at so far while playing mafia is 'is this claim truthful?'. everyone having access to that information is better than simply you having access to information gained through the thread, because even if you are town it is likely scum is able to gain the same information and other members of the town don't necessarily know to look for it in your questions.

yes, you have information i don't, i have information you don't, you have a history that i don't, i have a history that you don't, et cetera et cetera. my point is that if you are angling to gain information in a semi-secret way instead of doing so more publicly and that is more beneficial to the mafia.

[hari]

Hari, whats your read on our slot?

I had you as town during my read through, and have been saying so in our hydra pt.

If you are tring us, and im tring and shipping you town, can we stop this tet-a-tet?

i think you are probably slightly more likely than random to be town but i am trying to make sense of the things that you are doing that don't make sense to me. this will probably come up again as earlier you said something along the lines of olorin is confirmed scum if their claim was fabricated and that makes so little sense to me that it feels like it would have to come from mafia. so like interacting with you is helping me, even if you feel like it isn't helping you.

[hari]

whats the question asked of me? and am i supposed to answer it?

the question would be 'what do you think hellbooks was thinking there?' but there is no consensus on whether you should answer it now or not. i would like you to, fishy logic would like you to wait until hellbooks has explained.

i think i guessed what hellbooks was thinking there

[hari]

Why would town lie about their role like that? I can think of only 1 reason, and if you are a speaker of truth then I have my answer about that and its a null point now. Only way Olo flips scum now is if you flip it with them and I dont think thats going to happen.

i think olorin has claimed like that enough to be able to somewhat gauge town reactions to it vs mafia reactions, would be one possible reason for town to lie like that. it is fun, is another. i am a speaker of truth but that does not necessarily mean you have inferred from what i said correctly.

[hari]

oh for sure its a scenario where its better to wait. i dont think this is a productive line of inquiry either.

what do you think is a productive line of inquiry at this time?

[hari]

hari, how does bugspray look like to you if we only considered meta? I know they're a personal hero of yours.

if we only considered meta bugspray looks scummy to me. i've seen them lolhammer like this before, their reads looked like their reads as mafia previously (including their read on me being an almost exact copy) and i think town!bugspray would be participating in setup speculation, especially given their claimed role.

[hari]

sure. fine with it. don't see a reason to massclaim today tho. like -- what dayplay is it informing

it would help to deal with things like olorin's claim today instead of later. it would potentially make sense of bugspray's claim if it were somehow truthful. it would possibly allow us to create a subgroup that contained the mafia. i guess it is just about weighing benefits versus the potential loss of information gained from a night action which is difficult to do without knowing what that information could be. it would also potentially force mafia to fakeclaim with less information.

Is everyone waiting on the replacement?

do you agree with olorin's logic regarding the probability of skitter's slot being partnered with bugspray?

[hari]

do you agree with olorin's logic regarding the probability of skitter's slot being partnered with bugspray?

this is an open question to datisi and everyone else as well excepting bugspray and olorin.

[hari]

i think i may have accidentally killed fishy logic last night but i would like everyone else to claim before i explain.

[hari]

Uh... I want hari to claim next. How exactly did you kill Fishy logic How does your role interact with Olorin?

the picture i posted was to indicate that i had gained an ability during the night and to give the false impression that my role interacted with olorin. here:

i am a speaker of truth but that does not necessarily mean you have inferred from what i said correctly.

i pointed out to fishy logic that i was speaking the truth (the picture was not random) but they had not inferred from what i said correctly (which led me to assume they did not grant me the ability).

i targeted fishy logic with said ability during the night and when fishy logic turned up dead today i assumed it did not only do what i was told it did.

there is (quite a bit) more but i would like olorin to claim before continuing.

[hari]

What is the town motivation for doing this?

to see if olorin would stick to a claim i strongly believed to be false or if he'd say something about my implication and also to more discreetly communicate to whoever did give me the ability that i received it.

[hari]

the ability i received night one was a visitor. i was told it didn't do anything on its own but investigatives could find out i did it. last night i visited fishy logic.

i am also a town confidant. my ability is the same as fishy logic's but i do not have the gossiper/crowd reaction part. night one i targeted skitter who did not receive any investigative results. night two i targeted olorin who also did not receive any investigative results.

if you dont believe the claim we are free to no lynch and if i stay alive i can simply provide another investigation result. lol

this option might be okay because i can also target you with the confidant ability and at least one of us will be alive to report a result.

[hari]

i think olorin is right that dunnstral has to be town.

[hari]

Who? None of the claimed roles seem to be able to. Or are you referring to the crowd reaction portion... or the tracker?

it said the same thing when i received it.

[hari]

I still have absolutely no idea what these Crowd Reactions are about btw

it does make me think the 'pig cop' is slightly more likely than i would otherwise.

This setup had 1 vt in it

the plan seems good to me but this ^ does make me worry slightly about you being mafia who was able to double kill last night.

[hari]

true. power level still doesn't quite feel right but double kill would be a weird compensation.

[hari]

If you were targeted by me last night, please come out and say and then I can confirm.

who did you target last night?

If I stuck to the false claim, what would that mean for my alignment? Same question for if I admitted I was lying.

if you stuck to the false claim, i don't think it would mean much either way because it wouldn't make sense for you as either alignment to try to take advantage of me 'confirming' your fake claim when you know it is false. if you admitted you were lying, it would mean that we collectively would have been able to move past the 'town if true, mafia if false' dichotomy i was worried about. this would probably be pretty towny. there are other ways you could have reacted - saying that i was trying to take advantage of your claim by implying that i gave you water to accrue townpoints, for one.

all of this is pretty moot because you were the one who gave me the visitor ability so you knew what was actually being implied by my post.

[hari]

thankyou for moderating.