Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[72offsuit]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

Even though I find it scummy as well, I doubt both mafia would use the same point to push you early game. One of them to me is being truthful.

Where do I fall in your reads? And Walter?

Why ONE of them, why could both not be truthful? It doesn't sound like coming from your post you even consider yourself being wrong.

You know you are right here. I was so focused on tHis point that I didn't give myself the option to say both are town. I think in reference to it I would have preferred to say something along the lines of ..

If there is scum in this push it would only be one and not both.

And this early in the game I know I could be wrong, well at any point I could be wrong. But if I don't push what I see or at least make an attempt to call something out that strikes me wrong, I am doing a disservice to myself and to my team.

And that's exactly my point why your post 82 is scummy.
It doesn't read to me as coming from a town mindset, ie - that of a player who is in the dark as to other's alignments.

Furthermore, I dislike your concern about how you are being read by others (walter), it gives me the impression of a mindset of scum-survivalism.

[72offsuit]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

I forgot to ask, why the last question? I shouldn't have answered it because doesn't it tip off the mafia to be more or less active depending on peoples answers?

I've asked this question in a previous newbie game and I found it helpful.

It also forces players to take a stance on lurking. If a player says they think lurking is NAI (non-alignment-indicative) and then they later vote for a player for lurking, then you have a contradiction then.


I guess I can ask your 2nd question right back at you.
Hypothetical scenario: we are playing in Newbie #2020.
I am town and ask this question.
You are scum and see the responses.

Does !scumYou use these responses to adjust your playstyle?

[TheThirteenthJT]

Ydrasse I am a skeptical person and I don't like townreading people. So I don't townread DrPepper but it instead ai now find him less suspicious than Unowen.

Also I think Walter was referencing my question to 72 as to why question number 3 is important. And how it could give scum a chance to change their gamestlye. Piisirrational coming in shortly after to post and popping out again would be exactly why. Has he now been lurking knowing we won't policy lynch? Or is it truly just not available currently to be posting a lot? That question could have influenced his play style if he is scum.

72 did I ask Walter for his read on me? I don't remember and I won't get much of a chance to look back this weekend. I normally don't ask people to read me unless I feel they are buddying me. Usually at that point I'll ask without referring to the buddying to see if it was them agreeing with my point or if there was I'll intentions behind it.

I do know I have my read on him earlier.

I'm getting scumvibes from quite a bit of people this game as well. Little ones that ive posted here and there compared to my previous game lol.

[TheThirteenthJT]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

I forgot to ask, why the last question? I shouldn't have answered it because doesn't it tip off the mafia to be more or less active depending on peoples answers?

I've asked this question in a previous newbie game and I found it helpful.

It also forces players to take a stance on lurking. If a player says they think lurking is NAI (non-alignment-indicative) and then they later vote for a player for lurking, then you have a contradiction then.


I guess I can ask your 2nd question right back at you.
Hypothetical scenario: we are playing in Newbie #2020.
I am town and ask this question.
You are scum and see the responses.

Does !scumYou use these responses to adjust your playstyle?

My questions were (in summary)

1 who is the scum team?
2 who would your partner be?

I guess hyphotetically you could use them in a way, but that would too much of a stretch no? It would not be potential game altering changes. What do you do buddy more with players that chose you as their scum partners? Sure go ahead and make it obvious. Or if you are being scumread play more Townie? Like I said those questions had more of a now purpose to them vs a use for later.

And again I also stated the reasons they are fun questions. Maybe in the end they won't indicate as much to what I am hoping for, but it would nice to look back endgame and see everyone's responses.

[72offsuit]

@ ItalianoVD regarding reply to your post 136 :

1. My opinion of walter - slightly scummy
a) 30 sheeps GL's view of Owen without expanding and fence sits Re: 26. Then in 31 further adds to it as being a "good post" , which feels like pocketing

b) Says he thinks its a 72 + DP team, which is scummy for 2 reasons:
i) I don't think this scumteam seems believe from !TownWalter's PoV. Scum vs scum theatre seems like an unlikely thing to develop from page 1.
ii) It feels opportunistic to scumread both players in an early conflict - easy pickings for an easy mislynch, as can easily hop onto either potentially developing wagon

2. a) Walter - scum gut read - See above

b) Owen - scum gut read - 33 - felt like an overly defensive response


3. My impressions of GL is that they are a skilled, but not arrogant player, who has good reads.
Ydrasse as a possible partner as I havent addressed them. Scum theatre is hard and requires effort.

[72offsuit]

Ydrasse I am a skeptical person and I don't like townreading people. So I don't townread DrPepper but it instead ai now find him less suspicious than Unowen.

Also I think Walter was referencing my question to 72 as to why question number 3 is important. And how it could give scum a chance to change their gamestlye. Piisirrational coming in shortly after to post and popping out again would be exactly why. Has he now been lurking knowing we won't policy lynch? Or is it truly just not available currently to be posting a lot? That question could have influenced his play style if he is scum.

72 did I ask Walter for his read on me? I don't remember and I won't get much of a chance to look back this weekend. I normally don't ask people to read me unless I feel they are buddying me. Usually at that point I'll ask without referring to the buddying to see if it was them agreeing with my point or if there was I'll intentions behind it.

I do know I have my read on him earlier.

I'm getting scumvibes from quite a bit of people this game as well. Little ones that ive posted here and there compared to my previous game lol.

Sorry, I meant Italiano, not Walter. In post 82 you ask Italiano about his read on yourself and Walter.
Regardless, your concern Re: the read of others on yourself is scummy.

[72offsuit]

@72offsuit:

regarding 105, why did you feel the need to ask this question? this post pinged me a bit because i feel like you're asking about trs/talking about them for, fmpov, isn't the right reason to do so?

also, you threw down your vote on jt with no explanation in the post itself; do you sr him for the reasons in 112, and do you still find him scummy after him clarifying what he meant?

There is no NEED. Its just something i WANT a general concensus of opinions on, as opposed to specifically this game related sort of a question.
I think I'm starting to come round to only posting my townreads from day2. I just feel like outing townreads on day 1 just gets them killed a lot of the time on night 1. I'm a bit over being night killed for being too town. I'm yet to advance past day 2.

[72offsuit]

@72offsuit:

regarding 105, why did you feel the need to ask this question? this post pinged me a bit because i feel like you're asking about trs/talking about them for, fmpov, isn't the right reason to do so?

also, you threw down your vote on jt with no explanation in the post itself; do you sr him for the reasons in 112, and do you still find him scummy after him clarifying what he meant?

Yes. He is my top scumread at the moment and I think he is a good player to wagon on.

1. His scummy post 82 which I;ve elaborated on in 112 and 150

2. I agree with GL's post 62 TTJT's vote feels really opportunistic jumping on an early conflict - grounds that are ripe for an easy mislynch

3. I'm OK with the others on the wagon, I don;t scumread GL or Ydrasse at this stage

[72offsuit]

@TTJT. I don;t get your insistence on your questions. It's only been like a day.
You yourself admit them to be like half for the purposes of fun.
They are just feeling really red-herring-ish and filler/fluffy (yes, I know I asked questions myself, but my point still stands)

[TheThirteenthJT]

Ah yes, I did ask Italiano for his read on me. And it was due to the fact that he had mentioned townreading those who were against his push. He townread three others but I also was against his push. I wasn't sure if he conviently did that and people were already eating up me defending Italiano at this point.

Thus I saw that as either he forgot about me or a form of (not sure the right term) him distancing from me as a set up. So I asked him to read me to see where he would go from there.

And I don't agree with your last point. When you are the highest vote count wagon, (l2) were to scum players could still be off wagon and come in and lynch you, you want to know where everyone stands on you in order to see progression vs random voting to join a wagon. Now if I have no votes and I'm going around asking everyone their opinion on me I can see that as scummy reaching for townpoints.

[TheThirteenthJT]

You think it was oppurtunistic? The way I see it was me replacing into the game and after reading the game seeing it as the only real point of discussion to go on. I missed the early Rvs stage and DrPepper had said it, let's push out of rvs.

You won't understand my reasoning to them until after I explain what I was looking at. I'm really only waiting on one more persons response at this point.

Anyways I've been putting off getting ready this morning and I need to go like 20 minutes ago. I'll pop back in thriuout the day if I have signal.

If not I'll V/La for most of today and possibly tomorrow.

[M2H]

Blanked post meant for different thread
~Micc

[UNOwen]

I'm a bit confused here. Doesn't seem like the same question at all.


But I'll answer it. I can't vote two people at once so logic would say push one person until they've satisfied you or not then depending on that push the other. There are more reasons to vote DP first over you. One he was the first to mention the reason for his vote and two he is an SE. I'm sure as an SE he has seen this scenario before. If I can find a game were this happened with him before I can see if they reacted the same or different previously. I was satisfied with my early push on him and next is you on my list.

Yes I agree, you did not understand my point - I was not saying that you'd missed something, but that you hadn't appeared to look at all.
As for your reasons, neither were mentioned previously. What is the significance of the first? Fair enough on the second.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I now upon a reread think that last question could be used by scum to change their play in a subtle way.
I would like to know your thinking on the last one and why it is important?
If town, my feeling is that it is a test, but a sloppy one, which, an experienced player would be able to better conduct in a better fashion.
This only adds to my scum read as it gives scum an easy out and ability to adjust.

on another note, Anyone else find it odd that piisirrational popped up answered 72's questions and then dissapeared.

Was this prompted by TJ's post or were you already troubled by the lurker question?

[UNOwen]

do you mean that doctorpepper has become a tr to you at this point? i just wanna clarify that since it seemed like you hadn't cleared him totally in 127. as for owen, i don't think the sheeping pinged me on his posts so much as the subsequent ones he made where he called them suspicious but didn't give the answer until asked. similarly, he didn't give a reason why he sr'd you until he was asked and threw down your name as to who he thought the scum were. (118)

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

@owen: what do you think of italiano trying to interact with more people now and asking them questions/wanting clarity on things? and offering more of his opinions on other posters.

In the post you refer to I said his perspective could be townie, but his play did not match up to what I would expect that perspective to yield. For example I would imagine that he would not have required prompting to vote. I also thought he'd be engaged with more of the thread, even if the conclusion was the same. Although in general I think it's good to try and imagine the town version of your suspects posts, even if you think that's not the case.

Regarding TJ, I'm not sure what you mean by supporting from a distance. Is it just the lack of a vote?

In reply to your question: I'm disappointed he ignored me, but my questions were answered anyway. There's only been a few posts but they give me a better impression of him. It better matches what I read from him in his previous game. My vote is staying put for now though.

[UNOwen]

Are you saying that you find trying to lead town as being scummy?

Not necessarily, it's something I'm wary of because of what I find trustworthy in a player and am likely to be fooled by. That's not what I was saying though. I think DoctorPepper was trying to lead the town out of RVS but I think that was because he wanted to progress the game and he is an experienced player among newbies, not so people would trust him more. "Town leader" hat being something only scum would wear, because true town leaders don't need to put on a hat.

[UNOwen]

And I don't agree with your last point. When you are the highest vote count wagon, (l2) were to scum players could still be off wagon and come in and lynch you, you want to know where everyone stands on you in order to see progression vs random voting to join a wagon. Now if I have no votes and I'm going around asking everyone their opinion on me I can see that as scummy reaching for townpoints.

If you are town, do you think it is likely that two scum will double team you for a lynch on day one having previously not mentioned thinking you were scum?

[UNOwen]

@Italiano

: Could you expand on your GuiltyLion read?

[WaltertheDunce10]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I now upon a reread think that last question could be used by scum to change their play in a subtle way.
I would like to know your thinking on the last one and why it is important?
If town, my feeling is that it is a test, but a sloppy one, which, an experienced player would be able to better conduct in a better fashion.
This only adds to my scum read as it gives scum an easy out and ability to adjust.

on another note, Anyone else find it odd that piisirrational popped up answered 72's questions and then dissapeared.

Was this prompted by TJ's post or were you already troubled by the lurker question?

Tj alerted me to that fact, and I did a reread on that to think why that question would be there?
I have also checked 72's posts in previous Mafia games onsite but could not find another instance where he asked this question.
So 72 what game did you post this question?

[WaltertheDunce10]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

I forgot to ask, why the last question? I shouldn't have answered it because doesn't it tip off the mafia to be more or less active depending on peoples answers?

I've asked this question in a previous newbie game and I found it helpful.

It also forces players to take a stance on lurking. If a player says they think lurking is NAI (non-alignment-indicative) and then they later vote for a player for lurking, then you have a contradiction then.


I guess I can ask your 2nd question right back at you.
Hypothetical scenario: we are playing in Newbie #2020.
I am town and ask this question.
You are scum and see the responses.

Does !scumYou use these responses to adjust your playstyle?

perhaps, because scum will want to integrate and play their natural town selves,
at least from my view.
But prob not because looking natural and town is more important for scum than adjusting based on a question, although this comes from a lack of experience, this being my third game total.

[GuiltyLion]

Im a bit torn regarding early outing of early town reads. Generally town read players just tend to get killed off and you get left with the scumbuckets. Though obviously taking a stance is important so others can get a read of yourself.

What are your thoughts re: the benefits of posting these early town reads vs the cons?

Honestly I've experimented with some different styles regarding sharing townreads and I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all best approach to this dilemma. I think sharing townreads is important because it is a way to tell others who you will NOT vote, it helps build thread consensus and shape the pool of players up for debate about who might be scum. It narrows the trajectories scum can take by reducing the amount of slots they can effectively push.

However, I do think it's valuable to not always explain how strong your townread is, or why you are townreading people in complete detail, because that info does help scum figure out their standing and who might be mislynchable later, and helps them make better NKs.

So it depends. I think I tend to gravitate towards oversharing as town because I think transparency and being correctly townread is extremely valuable and overall makes the game state harder for scum, even with the drawbacks. But there are times when it's correct to mask a little bit about why you townread certain players or how confident you are in it, that's partly why I kinda rebuffed Ydrasse's question.

[GuiltyLion]

You said you didn't like UNO not making his reasoning for his vote clear but yet you town read him. Please explain.

The way he explained it in 36 and 56 was a satisfying explanation, and I think his attempts to advance the game is pro-town, especially in contrast to some of the other players.

I also didn't like Italiano's re-entry to the thread and began to scumread him myself now, which makes the RVS vote look better after the fact too

[GuiltyLion]

Now I disagree that even when using you 75/25 ratio that 25 percent is always a reason to push someone when something sets you off.

This isn't quite what I was saying, my point was I believe you should have reasons why you think a scum-motive explanation is

more

likely than a town-motive explanation. I can often imagine many scum-motive explanations for most posts in a game, but I try to always be checking them again town-motive explanations and then filtering only to push where I don't really see the town-motive explanation, or see it as less likely.

That said, I appreciate your explanation here and I think the overall post feels genuine

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - against*, not again

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty, shouldn't the percentages in 96 be 50/50 since you are working with no information and both worlds could equally be true and equally be false?

nah mate, that's not how probability works haha. If I roll a die, either I could roll a 1 or I could not, that doesn't mean these things are 50/50. Your mistake is to say we are working with "no information", townies are already working with information in that 6 other players are town and 2 are scum. So for any given post right now, it's more likely to be town posting than scum posting.

And if you don't mind could you give a better explanation of 99.

better explanation how? do you want me to talk in greater detail about each player, or one in particular?