Why Gun?? - Town Win

[Morning Tweet]

VOTE: Umlaut

Deadline isnt before i wake up I hope? I will endorse ur wagon in the meantime Mena. I am good with Norwe and Pork as well. Jjh or Tipsy if theres a very compelling case. Probably no one outside those individuals

[Menalque]

I think that probably all the scum is in (porkens, norwee, bell) or all the scum is in (umlaut, maxwell, jjh/tipsy)

Outside chance of isis in the second grouping

how did you get exactly these groups actually?

I just don’t particularly think porkens will flip scum at this point

why did you vote him half an hour earlier?

Inb4 datisi calls me scum for saying this

:/

I think this is already somewhat explained in my ISO but okay — first group is like the obviously scummy players. Porkens just not playing, coming in late with some very bad takes that just aren’t really related to what’s happened in the game— see: him arguing that I’ve been trying to leash our shots to be on certain people when my response to that being suggested was “lol no I’m shooting wherever I want”. Norwee just... isn’t doing a lot of solving and is mostly memeing + stuff like sheeping onto me from jjh when jjh voted me because of a misunderstanding. Bell is mostly there from the very early game that I still think was like obviously scummy looking but granted I may need to reread there. Tipsy could also maybe go into group 1 but like I think they could really be scum.

Umlaut is explained in my ISO I cbf to do it again. Maxwell — someone said they forgot he was in the game and I had that exact same experience. He’s just kind of been sitting in the townreads but actually I’m not sure there’s much basis for that beyond him having the same reads as morning and me. He’s one of those slots who’s sort of very null but I can see this being an attempt to play like town without being town. Jjh is a similar sort of thing — okay start, but has faded away and not really been scumhunting. I don’t hate maxwell’s case there tbh, but there’s two mitigating factors: (1) he said he would be limited somewhat in activity in the pre-game and (2) idk if his push on me would come if he was scum or not. Like that misunderstanding could have led to an opportunistic push on me but I’m not sure if it did do that necessarily.

I voted porkens because, as mentioned, I don’t mind getting read of the null slots first. I don’t think it’s an awful way to play, porkens could flip scum if I’m wrong. But I just, on balance, think scum are generally not trying to lose and porkens really isn’t playing in a way that looks like he wants to or cares about surviving. There is always the possibility that someone is counting on a townie to defend them for playing like this and is scum, but just, that doesn’t seem that probable.

I knew that this would worry you because I do this as scum too (oppose a miselim last minute to be on the right side of it) but I think you should bear in mind that I am actually advocating for doing my desired guillotine instead and compromising on porkens was something that made more sense when I wasn’t sure I’d be able to get enough support to flip umlaut before deadline due to bltiz. Once isis indicated she was willing to vote there I figured umlaut might be viable if I voted there too and started wagon building. But I didn’t want to lead off the vote when it was important to get a guillotine today and I was fine with compromising on porkens

[Datisi]

i understand why those people are null/scummy, i was under the impression you were saying: "the team is exactly pork/norwee/bell or umlaut/max/(jjh/tipsy)", and i'm very interested in how/why you're getting to full teams, and *exactly* those full teams (bc it looks like there's some 9000+IQ 5D chess partnerhunting going on there behind the scenes)

i hear what you mean about porkens, but my issue is that, usually with players that are unreadable/refusing to participate, if they're town, there's scum "circling" them in a sense and trying to make them viable for execution. and i'm kinda just... not seeing that here? (yes i know i'm saying this myself but) which lowkey worries me?

(also hint, if we don't attain majority by deadline, plurality is in effect, so dw about leading the vote away or whatever)

VOTE: umlaut

[maxwell]

Going to try to burn through my notes from last night, still have to read a good portion of the playerlist.

Bell

- 253's "My initial shooting will be tit for tat." is a somewhat town type of standoffishness. Too cool for school attitude is hard to read but I'd guess it comes from town. Irritation at being ignored by Menalque early is maybe town. Read on the weak side though.

Datisi

- liked the early gut read on Bell, feel there's an ease to his posting this game although this is something of a recency bias thing. I like the idea expressed in 298, something of a more advanced thought . Exchange with Bell starting at 317 rings like town irritation. paranoia of menalque in 458 believable as coming from town. This is a townread.

Isis

- so let me try to articulate more fully what bothered me about Isis. In 512 she says it's hard to read Iconeum on the first day of a game. In 524 she says Iconeum is useful to have around as town. Then in 558 she shoots Iconeum for being "sideliney" only to express regret 7 minutes in 560 which is a really bizarre progression? It reads like a caricature of townie impulsiveness, the idea that someone takes a shot only partway into a read of a player they previously expressed is useful to have around, the whole thing really doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'ma little wrapped up in the result of the shot but I don't like the process here at all.

Other parts of Isis's play I have issue with: expressing the idea that Bell is impersonating a veteran and therefore must be scum in 545 just makes no sense at all. Analysis of Tipsy in 599 feels very overwrought, like it's reading way too hard into very simple statements to conclude that Tipsy must be town and I don't really like it at all. Tone in 772 feels off.

In 813 Isis says "The strength of my Tipsy townread is going to be informed by showing up late to the thread and seeing like, this player who seems slightly or moderately townier than rand to me is getting dumped on by the entire thread with poor reasoning, and I'm not really townreading any of those people." The problem I have with this statement is...who is Isis talking about? The players who jumped on Tipsy early were: Norwee, Morning Tweet, maxwell, Menalque, and Umlaut. But as of that point, Isis doesn't really address any of any of us? So i'm not sure

who

she's saying she didn't townread, and if she had an issue with a Tipsy voter, why not put the shot on one of us, rather than Iconeum, whose one post addressing Tipsy was to defend them? She vaguely shaded menalque in 602 but then reversed course and expressed a townread on him in 846 and says I "probably rolled town this game" in 879 which would imply some form of suspicion toward norwee/MT/Umlaut but there's no action there, their vote is on Umlaut now but she hasn't expressed any reasoning as to why at any point, it just seems to be following Menalque. Heavily on the scum side for me.

norwee

- 396 is actually kind of a town inquisitiveness? Still not sure his response to pressure is exactly great, though. Am wary of some of the people who have been calling for his death, though.

Ugh I still have to get through 7 more people like this

[maxwell]

I don't think criticism of me is unfair given I was basically procrastinating at actually doing anything in this game for a good while. Sort of makes me wonder why I was hanging around in some people's townreads. Still feel very iffy toward an Umlaut vote on a gut level.

[Datisi]

I knew that this would worry you because I do this as scum too (oppose a miselim last minute to be on the right side of it)

actually, now that you mention it, 1202 lowkey gives me that feeling

pedit: nice timing. i'll read through that in a bit.

[Menalque]

i understand why those people are null/scummy, i was under the impression you were saying: "the team is exactly pork/norwee/bell or umlaut/max/(jjh/tipsy)", and i'm very interested in how/why you're getting to full teams, and *exactly* those full teams (bc it looks like there's some 9000+IQ 5D chess partnerhunting going on there behind the scenes)

i hear what you mean about porkens, but my issue is that, usually with players that are unreadable/refusing to participate, if they're town, there's scum "circling" them in a sense and trying to make them viable for execution. and i'm kinda just... not seeing that here? (yes i know i'm saying this myself but) which lowkey worries me?

(also hint, if we don't attain majority by deadline, plurality is in effect, so dw about leading the vote away or whatever)

VOTE: umlaut

Ehhh, i see how you took that from what i said and I probably shouldn’t have said “all the scum is in X or all the scum is in Y” because that’s not precise to what I wanted. More like, I think the scum is clustered around group A or the scum is clustered around group B. As in, either the scummy slots are actually scum, or the scummy slots are town and the nullish slots have most of the scum in them

I don’t really feel strongly enough to try to call a full solve D1 in a 14p (although I’ll absolutely take it if either of those pools are totally right!) and there could be bleed through from one to the other. For instance, I’m not sure max/jjh make sense as partners given recent posting

I didn’t realise it was plurality, but in that’s also relevant to your second point — I wonder if scum aren’t as concerned about needing to add weight to porkens (if he is a miselim) because he’d go through without needing their support if he reaches a critical mass of town wanting to eliminate him, and that could account for the lack of vultures

[Menalque]

Datisi, do you think I’m out of my scumrange?

[maxwell]

Umlaut:

bullet points in 491 are meh, 495 are basically the troll/memeshooter players which granted are not particularly bad shots but kind of shows a lack of effort. But then that's not necessarily scum indicative. Have to hard disagree with the sentiment in 635 of liking Isis's post but I can see a town player getting impressed by that thing. Does follow the consensus townread of triplehaven in 689 but has his own reasoning. Defending the porkens wagon shows at least a lack of opportunism but he hasn't directed many reads elsewhere and there's definitely a lack of content overall. But, I don't know. The wagon still feels somewhat off to me and I don't really get the accusation that he's trying to look town or whatever, doesn't give that impression. Seems mostly like someone who's out of step with the thread which is a nulltell and push amounts to shoving out a random lurker. Not the worst possible elim but doesn't feel likely to hit scum.

[maxwell]

Also possible scum just want to keep Porkens around if he's town because he'd be disruptive and more likely to harm town than anything else

[Datisi]

I didn’t realise it was plurality, but in that’s also relevant to your second point — I wonder if scum aren’t as concerned about needing to add weight to porkens (if he is a miselim) because he’d go through without needing their support if he reaches a critical mass of town wanting to eliminate him, and that could account for the lack of vultures

fair and well, except i don't think anyone was pushing in his direction (other than isis with a naked vote that was reeking of "placeholder" with no attempts to push there) until i brought up the subject (and it seems like it's being actively pushed *away* from there now!)

like, "if he reaches a critical mass", except absolutely nobody was adding mass there? (unless you argument is that i am, but i mean before that...) i dunno. doesn't pacify me.

Datisi, do you think I’m out of my scumrange?

i don't think i do. should i be thinking that?

pedit: while that's perfectly possible, there's another issue with that. let's say porkens *is* a low hanging fruit. why is mafia not taking it? << insert another panicked rant about deepwolves here >>

[Menalque]

I didn’t realise it was plurality, but in that’s also relevant to your second point — I wonder if scum aren’t as concerned about needing to add weight to porkens (if he is a miselim) because he’d go through without needing their support if he reaches a critical mass of town wanting to eliminate him, and that could account for the lack of vultures

fair and well, except i don't think anyone was pushing in his direction (other than isis with a naked vote that was reeking of "placeholder" with no attempts to push there) until i brought up the subject (and it seems like it's being actively pushed *away* from there now!)

like, "if he reaches a critical mass", except absolutely nobody was adding mass there? (unless you argument is that i am, but i mean before that...) i dunno. doesn't pacify me.

Datisi, do you think I’m out of my scumrange?

i don't think i do. should i be thinking that?

pedit: while that's perfectly possible, there's another issue with that. let's say porkens *is* a low hanging fruit. why is mafia not taking it? << insert another panicked rant about deepwolves here >>

Well like, there seemed to be a fair number of people that I think are town happy to vote there: me, you, MT, isis, and I think haven said she was okay with it even if she was voting me at the time

My question about whether you think I’m out of my scumrange is not related to whether you think I should be (I don’t) it’s more a slight unease that’s maybe being compounded by isis’ suggestions that you’re pocketing me but — why are you not more paranoid of me then? I don’t feel like you’ve been really very paranoid of me at all this game and certainly for like several games you were super paranoid of me when you were town regardless of my alignment

[Menalque]

Also possible scum just want to keep Porkens around if he's town because he'd be disruptive and more likely to harm town than anything else

I mean, if I were trying to save porkens as scum it would be more because he’s unlikely to disrupt my control of the gamestate and because he’d be a good misguillo in gylo

I don’t really see how he’s likely to harm town more than anything else vía being disruptive?

[Datisi]

Well like, there seemed to be a fair number of people that I think are town happy to vote there: me, you, MT, isis, and I think haven said she was okay with it even if she was voting me at the time

was that before or after i started going there? and if we think those players are town, then that doesn't invalidate my argument i think

why are you not more paranoid of me then?

i don't know.

[Umlaut]

Hi, I'm town

Going to go make some breakfast and then try to read this. Kind of sus of Menque pushing this as he knows my town and scum games and should not read my low activity as scum-indicative for me.

[jjh927]

ooh I missed a lot

[jjh927]

Ngl when I checked the votecount after I posted yesterday, I'd already gotten used to the idea I wouldn't have to read any more of this game rn

[Menalque]

Hi, I'm town

Going to go make some breakfast and then try to read this. Kind of sus of Menque pushing this as he knows my town and scum games and should not read my low activity as scum-indicative for me.

It’s not purely your low activity, and if you read the argument I made for it being you you’ll see that. It’s more that what you’ve done while being here is... deeply questionable and I don’t think representative of town!you

[jjh927]

Dunno where we're all at, but I should probably clarify the main gripe I have with Norwegian atm

Okay so I shot at him and that somehow made him think I'm town. I can maybe accept that.
Then when I voted away from him in a way that might build traction, he sheeped me. Quite directly. Pretty sure he was the main wagon at that point, and this was like, one of the first possible points for pressure to relieve there, and he took it. What's more, let's say you're town. Why do you sheep someone on a different read with no basis but that they are scumreading you? It's totally ridiculous- the only read they hold that you actually know whether it's right or wrong, and they have it wrong. So why sheep on another read?
2 reasons. Pressure relief, and trying to pocket me away from continuing to vote him.

[jjh927]

I want to say I'll catch up now but honestly I'll probably play some xcom

[maxwell]

Dunno where we're all at, but I should probably clarify the main gripe I have with Norwegian atm

Okay so I shot at him and that somehow made him think I'm town. I can maybe accept that.
Then when I voted away from him in a way that might build traction, he sheeped me. Quite directly. Pretty sure he was the main wagon at that point, and this was like, one of the first possible points for pressure to relieve there, and he took it. What's more, let's say you're town. Why do you sheep someone on a different read with no basis but that they are scumreading you? It's totally ridiculous- the only read they hold that you actually know whether it's right or wrong, and they have it wrong. So why sheep on another read?
2 reasons. Pressure relief, and trying to pocket me away from continuing to vote him.

Hmm I actually like this post

[maxwell]

Also possible scum just want to keep Porkens around if he's town because he'd be disruptive and more likely to harm town than anything else

I mean, if I were trying to save porkens as scum it would be more because he’s unlikely to disrupt my control of the gamestate and because he’d be a good misguillo in gylo

I don’t really see how he’s likely to harm town more than anything else vía being disruptive?

likely to be shooting at town/a continued source of arguments and break apart any attempts at consensus is what I'm trying to say.

[maxwell]

jjh, do you mind clarifying what the basis for your initial scumread on Norwegianboy was? I see the stuff about after the shot but I'm wonder what led you to shoot at him in the first place.

[jjh927]

Nothing substantial when I initially voted, IIRC

I think I'd just done a bit of a jumbled mental readslist

[jjh927]

The scumread really kicked into gear when norwegian shot Bell, which I think was a pretty opportunistic shot at the time