Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[Menalque]

VOTE: dunn

I don’t get that reference

[Menalque]

Oh right, okay

Ehh, I don’t think dann is like a million miles off but I do think that hiraki is scum for like a whole host of reasons I’ve gone into. I don’t strongly object to eliminating the lurkers, but would strongly prefer hiraki today and have been focused on him because of that. I’m willing to help out with wagoning lurkers, but honestly I’d rather just hit 7 votes on hiraki already and proceed into D2

I forgot about beeboy’s gun game, sorry!

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I’d quite like to hear more from testa

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Not dunn?

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I don’t think gypx is a great place for a vote tbh

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It’s more like I think gypx is liable to be replaced and so it’s not even useful as a pressure vote

I think dram is sadly likely to continue to just be an antitown force until flips happen

[Menalque]

I feel kinda bad because I think I am actively marginalising dram, but I don’t really see any other options here?

[Menalque]

Do you mean dram?

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I think Jake is town because I kind of doubt that scum enters the game as the top wagon and thinks “yes, I shall now commit hard to speaking in a gimmick voice for the rest of the game!”

[Menalque]

You playing would be a good start, dunn

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I also don’t think teacher is scum

[Menalque]

Gimmick’s don’t drop their gimmicks just because the chips are down.

Y-es but only (1) actually they do and (2) dropping a gimmick is different to entering the game and thinking, hmmm, I’m scum at L-3 and there’s not really a viable counterwagon to me. What shall I do? I know, gimmick posting! That’s never got anyone guillotined!

[Menalque]

I also don’t think teacher is scum

vote for someone you think is scum

I think you’re plausible as scum and am waiting for you to show me otherwise

[Menalque]

I’ve also made it very, *very* clear who I think is scum and who I want dead today

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Apparently not, given how much resistance there’s been to getting votes on him

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I don’t think Jake is a gimmick account? If he is that changes things a bit but I feel like I’ve seen him in other games where he’s posted normally

[Menalque]

I don’t really plan to yell at anyone

Like I can do it and have done it and yes pretending (or worse, believing) that you’re a super mafia god who must be sheeped and damn it, you’ll yell at anyone who doesn’t get in line, can be quite effective at getting the person you want flipped it’s like

Not a pleasant thing to do, and I don’t believe it’s any more effective in winning games in a much more cooperative way, which is something I’m trying to learn to do based on inspiration from watching the way that my like ~*mafia idols*~ play and win games

[Menalque]

watching the way that my like ~*mafia idols*~ play and win games

Out of curiosity, who would those be?

Skitter and Alyssa are probably the two people who I most look up to as players

(You might be more likely to know alyssa as ankamius)

[Menalque]

I wouldn’t say they’re heroes. They’re friends who I think are really good at mafia and who I try to learn from in how I play

[Menalque]

I can idolise them as players of the game while having separate relationships to them as people

But this is kind of a redundant discussion and prob more appropriate in postgame

[Menalque]

I think I get the gist of the Dunn suspicion, but can you explain gypyx to me? That guy is as null as you can be,

The lack of AI posting this far into the day is what makes him scummy. He’s not really playing, he’s just a body in space. Look in his ISO: where is the desire to solve the game or to sort other players?

[Menalque]

mod V/LA until the 21st pls

It will probably not have an effect on my activity but just in case

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For now I'd like to ask Menalque why he is voting Dunn when he is asserting Hiraki is his biggest SR.

Because teacher is hoping that more votes on dunn will prompt dunn to actually play the game

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And I don’t think dunn is a bad place to be voting anyway

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What exactly are you trying to argue is bad faith?

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That is like, the exact opposite of what you started off saying about dunn and your take on him

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I just expect a lot from Dunnstral's town game and entering with a setup question followed by #42 where he answers a question with a non-answer question that doesn't really seem productive or game-furthering in anyway is not what I expect from him.

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But that vote on mena seems toxicish

I mean I don’t think it was tbh?

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But I'd imagine he would establish more of a presence early on as scum

Also when I said this you fought me on it, or at the very least disagreed, so what’s changed?

[Menalque]

Early on is exactly the time to be reach imo.

I just expect a lot from Dunnstral's town game and entering with a setup question followed by #42 where he answers a question with a non-answer question that doesn't really seem productive or game-furthering in anyway is not what I expect from him.

I think I’ve just moved away from this in my own approach and like to just solidly meme normally until my reads start firming up as people start pushing etc, and I think I’m trying to avoid being reachy myself as I’ve come to terms with the fact that my reads are like, not great

For dunn: guess I’m willing to wait and see? I’ve misread him as scum before when he’s just had a lazy towngame and so I think that’s not pinging me because I have no idea if this is likely to be a tryhardy game for him as town, plus I think he’s out in multiple very competent scum performances recently and lowkey think he’d make a townier entrance than that if he were scum. So I guess I’m a gut level I’m very slightly townleaning him from it

I think I’ve just moved away from this in my own approach and like to just solidly meme normally until my reads start firming up as people start pushing etc, and I think I’m trying to avoid being reachy myself as I’ve come to terms with the fact that my reads are like, not great

For dunn: guess I’m willing to wait and see? I’ve misread him as scum before when he’s just had a lazy towngame and so I think that’s not pinging me because I have no idea if this is likely to be a tryhardy game for him as town, plus I think he’s out in multiple very competent scum performances recently and lowkey think he’d make a townier entrance than that if he were scum. So I guess I’m a gut level I’m very slightly townleaning him from it

That's fair. I just like to make things happen sometimes and maybe don't mind looking dumb with bad reads later on.

Overall, I expect my reads to change a lot. I'm willing to wait and see with Dunn too. Me scum reading an element of someone's posting or even voting a slot doesn't necessarily mean I want to kill that slot RIGHT NOW, it can often just mean I want to see what happens if I do.

Eh, not massively tho I guess

[Menalque]

I didn’t say it wasn’t a bad vote, but scummy/bad =/= toxic

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I’m not really sure what alignment bell is but I think I’m gonna townbin him to make life easier

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Why is this day dragging so much, can we seriously not just execute in (hiraki, dunn, gypx, A50, gamma) and move on?

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VOTE: Bell - I'm getting some town pings, but I'm also getting some scum pings from this slot. I want pressure here to help sort. I don't know if it's because he's V/LA until Monday, but a lot of his posts feel like fluff and don't really contribute anything. Also not a fan of his intent to park a vote on Hiraki and not move it for the rest of D1.

I dislike this vote almost as much as I liked the vote on teacher and I’m not sure what that means for my marashu read

[Menalque]

Oh wait, I checked the VC, maybe it’s not that bad

Still, idk if I like it

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Why does town dunn care about projecting a town entrance in the first place?

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I don't really know what Dunnstral's scum game is like but personally I'm more confident as town that I can revive people's opinions of my slot after having a bad start or being inactive than I am as scum

I don’t really get what you’re saying here/how it’s relevant?

[Menalque]

Why is this day dragging so much, can we seriously not just execute in (hiraki, dunn, gypx, A50, gamma) and move on?

Do you think this is significantly off and if so why?

[Menalque]

Oh, right, yeah that does make sense

I don’t really think it makes him town tho? It just means that he wouldn’t be trying to deepwolf this game. I’m p sure it’s within Dunn’s meta to just lurk out as scum too

[Menalque]

^^ in response to 973

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Yeah okay, that makes sense

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Wait I’m not already revoting hiraki lmao

VOTE: hiraki

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How you feeling about bell btw?

Also any ideas on marashu?

[Menalque]

Me? Pretty confident still, nothing has really changed other than I was willing to work with teacher for a bit because he was implicitly asking me to

I think I’m also fairly confident that gypx!slot is scum but I agree with dann that flipping hiraki will be much more useful D1

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I really liked marashu’s teacher vote

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Do you think scum!gamma would knowingly pick a fight with town!me to defend a buddy or nah?

[Menalque]

Yeah I kind of liked it because he hasn’t had a /lot/ of success as scum I think, so I felt like him pushing teacher was quite indicative of independent thought and a willingness to pursue his own reads?

And then I didn’t like the bell vote but I couldn’t put my finger on why, so was wondering if actually it was broadly the same as the teacher vote, but I think you’re right. The first one felt good, the second one feels more like avoiding associations with anyone really likely to be flipped today

[Menalque]

I guess if I’m wrong on gamma i could see marashu

[Menalque]

I didn't really see him pushing you as much though over arguing with you about dramonic/hiraki?

Yeah, that’s my point, I sort of feel like dram is a much softer target than I am in this PL and also just doesn’t really have the energy I do given that I’m restricting the number of games I’m in

Like I dislike gamma a lot more for the fact that he came in, shaded me and called me scummy, but just... never really pursued it, pushed dram (who I think is town) for reasons that I sort of think should be equally applicable to hiraki but who he’s townreading for ?? reasons

And then faded away after that

I sort of think town!gamma would always pick a fight with me if he thought I was scum, whereas I feel like he’s sort of playing around me in a very strategic way?

[Menalque]

Yeah I kind of liked it because he hasn’t had a /lot/ of success as scum I think, so I felt like him pushing teacher was quite indicative of independent thought and a willingness to pursue his own reads?

I just didn't see as much followup as I would've liked. He made one post engaging with teacher but I don't understand where he ended up on teacher read-wise and then he never picked back up with the questions he asked teacher

Some of that could be attributed to missing posts / getting uninvested in the game, but I feel like claiming to have reread and resorted his thoughts out and then going into a mostly empty vote on Bell has his conclusion is not a good way to reenter the thread

Okay, I’ll have another look at the ISO but prob tomorrow as it’s getting late now. But okay, I do see what you’re getting at

I think it’s mildly hilarious if Mara is scum fwiw, the guy has literally the worst luck in the world (depending on how you look at it)

[Menalque]

Oh, is bell scum too now?

[Menalque]

That’s nice

Hey guys, you can get a midgame alignment swap if you vote hiraki! Try it!

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It’s cool to know that teacher plays rugby

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I think maybe dram’s equity goes up if hiraki!town

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I’ve been thinking about it and this makes more sense as white knighting than it does as partner equity

Idk I’m not saying I think it means dram /is/ scum if hiraki!town. But I will probably reread gamma’s arguments again more sympatheticallly

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Also I’m aware that that sounds scummy coming from me and given my general trajectory this game

Also aware that me pointing out I’m aware of it probably doesn’t help that much with sorting me

[Menalque]

Has your read on Jake's slot evolved at all since TH replaced out?

I think that his entrance is prob +town?

Idk I think bell was going back and forth with me on this, but I’m somewhat doubtful that Jake reps in as top wagon and thinks “yes, this is an optimal game for me to do my gimmick in!” As opposed to doing tryhardy posting

Flip side, despite being committed to the gimmick he has been kinda tryhardy

Mostly a big fat idk. I think you had a point that I don’t have town!meta on haven to make a comparison to, but she just felt townie and I like, hate the pressure on that slot apart from testa (And tbh testa’s vote there coupled with low activity is the main reason testa isn’t in my top tier of TRs)

[Menalque]

Teacher what do you think about compromising on hiraki?

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I’m now thinking quite strongly that flipping dunn is a bad move and I’d like you to compromise back on hiraki, dann

@bell I think he does but I’m not totally sure. I think it’s towny tho

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Honestly, fakegod has it so right with the 8 day deadlines

It’s enough time to decently analyse but it also forces people to shit or get off the pot instead of these dumbassed killing time days where we’re basically producing a whole lot of dogshit when the only thing that’s liable to meaningfully progress the game is a flip

[Menalque]

Hiraki is scum or hiraki is not scum

The gamestate looks very different depending on which one of those is true

The only way to find out is flipping him and seeing what colour shows, so can we get to the doing that please instead of this endless back and forth in a no-info gamestate?

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What is the great advantage in dragging out the day another 4-5 IRL days for the possibility that dunn or gypx start playing harder?

And idk I don’t townread A50 and I think I TR most other slots more than him

I think like even if mara is scum and gamma is town, A50 is still very much within that pool

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I mean fakegod has been running 8 day days in like 17p larges for a while now and I think it’s much better and much more pro-town than 14 day days in a 13p

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Mark my words: nothing more meaningful than what we already have will happen in the remaining days until deadline. All the additional days will lead to is additional posting that will make the signal harder to find for all the noise

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I think dann is still very probably town despite a slight unease around his dunn flip flop. I doubt anything that will happen without a flip bus going to change my read on you or dann unless you were to legit scumslip which let’s face it, won’t happen

[Menalque]

I mean if we're talking about flipping for info I'm somewhat interested in Jake given that slot has been the top wagon all day

Okay but counterpoint

I think hiraki will flip scum and I don’t think Jake will

Like hiraki is the most productive slot to flip who I actively think will flip scum

[Menalque]

If you both think I’m town

Don’t really think hiraki is town

And don’t feel super strongly that any other slot is scum

Then can you please just work with me here and vote hiraki so we can actually get some progress?

[Menalque]

I'm sorry Menalque but I don't think I can vote Hiraki

I'm willing to talk to you about it though because right now I'm thinking you may be tunneled

Okay, go ahead

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VOTE: jake

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Dum da dum, I think this game is probably a loss and I’m no longer gonna take it seriously I think

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I’m going to hang the hopes of victory on having been totally wrong so far and I’ll just sheep hiraki and dram

I think if I am right so far then it’s a loss because it means town is unable to coordinate a wagon on scum

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Menalque I don’t think I’ve seen you be this petulant before? Waaaa, I can’t get my preferred lynch through so I’m not going to play seriously? Get over yourself.

I err, feel like you forgot that this game existed when you were writing this

(That was harsher than I wanted, I apologize. I appreciated that you were willing to work with me a bit on Dunn and what you’ve done so far. But I think the false urgency to eliminate halfway through the phase, with a replacement for an empty slot pending, and then throwing a tantrum when you don’t get it is ... not ideal.

and I mean, it's fine? it was a slightly abrasive phrasing but I'm a big boy. like, here's the thing:

I feel like I'm the person most actively playing the game by like, quite a wide margin, but I'm getting very little play on what I want despite expressing a greater level of confidence in it than I normally would. that's like, not motivating for me, and doesn't make me feel like I want to keep tryharding or trying to move the game along? because either (1) I'm town reading scum in which case, hey, c'est la vie, it's one of those games and I'm just ass backwards or (2) I'm scum reading scum but my TRs don't want to actually test whether I'm correct by putting them on the chopping block

to expand a little: I think that if hiraki and dram are both town there's like a fundamental disconnect in how they're approaching the game that's not going to be reconciled without flips on one side of that, maybe without flips on both. I'm not particularly interested in trying in a game where two people who I know (if town) are straight up wrong are feeling like calling me scum with a stupid level of confidence while I literally *know* that they're wrong. and so like I don't think we're ever getting to a point of working together now because I think their approach to the game is fundamentally not one of working together. and that can be okay if you have like super accurate reads, but they don't, and they're not interested in correcting that.

I feel like I'm not expressing myself that well but I cba to edit for clarity

[Menalque]

oh and like, it's not fake urgency, it's literally that I think waiting until deadline is scumsiding and that there's de facto nothing to be gained from it

and yet towns continue to run games to deadline over and over and over again

[Menalque]

ehh like I just don't really care at this point

let's flip Jake and see if dram and hiraki can walk the walk on at least one of their top two scumreads

[Menalque]

if Jake flips scum: I get killed tomorrow and am freed from this game and Dramonic and hiraki look really dumb for calling me scum and I get to crow about how if town they were totally wrong and if scum that I called their bullshit early game and then was promptly ignored by all the actual townies

if Jake flips town: I get what I want tomorrow when hiraki gets flipped

[Menalque]

lol I'm not that lucky

[Menalque]

in any world where hiraki and dram are town scum never kill them because it means that this conflict continues into D2 or D3 or whenever until people finally get on board with guillotining one of them or with guillotining me

[Menalque]

Ignoring the wall of AtE

Maybe hiraki or draconic will get shot and you won’t have to worry about it.

lol I'm not that lucky

You don't have to be lucky, you choose where that bullet goes mate.

it's like, posts like these are exactly why I don't think I'll ever be able to work with Dramonic

[Menalque]

Good idea, but before we put it into practice I'd request that you elaborate on how it will affest your oen reads in each case. Like, who would suspect more if Hiraki flips green/red and who will be conf-town to you in both cases?

err if hiraki flips scum then I just wanna proceed with flipping through my pool which would then be like (gamma, you, gypx!slot, Dunn) maybe mara as well depending on what dann has to say there

if hiraki is green then like, (you, gypx, dunn) are all still probably in my PoE. gamma is maybe less likely? mara probably goes in, dram comes down quite a bit. bell probably goes down a bit, Jake goes down

like if all of (me, teacher, dann, hiraki, dram) are town and fighting with one another then I think scum are probably all the passive slots, maybe 1 person trying to worm their way in to have an influence on what's happening

[Menalque]

I'm super proud of myself for how I've handled hiraki and dram tho

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I thought you hadn't played for like 6 years bell

[Menalque]

huh, guess I didn't know he was like that from the beginning

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at least raybells does have like, very high read accuracy tho across a very consistent number of games

like I do have a lot of respect for his strength as a player despite disagreeing very strongly with his approach to games

[Menalque]

because the game is boring and no-one is willing to flip who I wanna flip, including you

[Menalque]

cool

find another 4 votes and I'll hammer him

[Menalque]

well apparently neither am I given that hiraki hasn't gone above 3 votes all game

but flip side, I'm not the one who probably dies if I don't find those votes so *shrug*

[Menalque]

because we're fucking around for no reason and I want a flip, and there are not a sufficient number of people interested in voting the person I think is evil for that to happen

[Menalque]

this is a very welcome addition

who should I vote for PP

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

well like, ur alignment would show bro, so we'd know if you were town or scum

[Menalque]

if Jake flips scum: I get killed tomorrow and am freed from this game and Dramonic and hiraki look really dumb for calling me scum and I get to crow about how if town they were totally wrong

This doesn't even make any sense AT ALL.

How ON EARTH would they "look really dumb" provided Hake flips SCUM??? And how would they be "totally wrong" in this case, even if you flip town next?

Listen, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME specifically, but your playstyle is weird and you seem to always manage to get dig yourself ditches that you then struggle to get out of.

First: You ONLY trust your own reads, and it's hard for you to see thing from someone else's PoV (even if they were mod-confirmed).

Second: You go "all in" on one read which makes you look really bad if they flip green.

Third: This here quote looks very much like it could be designed to fall back to when/if hake flips scum. "Would I have said that as scum who knew Jake would flip scum? Why would I suggest we kill me next when the team is of only 2, thus we get eliminated?"

I am NOT saying this is the case. I am pointing out it "could be" and you seam to always do stuff like that (my past experience with you).

But that's only of Jake flips scum. What if he flips town? You sill look worse than anyone who pushed him, and -certainly- anyone that defended him and refused to vote him.

In short: If you're town, you're not helping. If you're scum, you're doomed.

I do apologize if this comes across as a harsh attack, but trust me.. if I was scum here it's be VERY EASY for me to set you up as the next elimination regardless. I won't even care if you were on the opposing team, because the push on you would be so easy it makes sense to come from just about ANYONE at all.

Again, SORRY. I just.. like your company but not at all your play "as of late". (I guess that's as close as I can phrase it without actually crossing the lines)

re: 1161 for A50

I think you have like a really flawed view of how I approach games, and I think saying that I only trust my own reads is indicative of that because that's like, deeply not true

it probably would be quite easy to set me up as the next miselim tbh because I no longer care about this game so I won't argue with that

you maybe have a point that I look like I'm going "all in" on a read when I'm not, but sadly a lot of people miss the nuance

[Menalque]

oh ffs I meant to delete the quote so it wouldn't take up so much space

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well I guess we'd also get the alignments of whoever gets NK'd so then we'd have that info too

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yeah but then we'd like, not have jake's alignment and that seems like a pretty big disadvantage, idk

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yeah that sounds like a scum thing to be suggesting gamma

[Menalque]

I mean you're suggesting we eliminate someone when they could be goodie, that sounds pretty scummy to me

[Menalque]

oh no ur right, maybe I'm the scum!!!

[Menalque]

yeah but then we'd like, not have jake's alignment and that seems like a pretty big disadvantage, idk

"What advantage would executing me give you, that you would not get from executing Penguin? You may not get my true self, but you'll get Penguin's. Why is mine more important than theirs?"

well it would give me the advantage of knowing your alignment but not penguin's

whereas executing penguin would give me the disadvantage of not knowing your alignment, even though I knew his

[Menalque]

well duh doy I know his alignment because I'm scum obviously, haven't you been listening to dram and hiraki

[Menalque]

also u should really be checking the pt how do you not know I'm scum when I'm ur partner!

[Menalque]

we were just Too Bad at being the Scums and the God Tier Towns caught us on D1, oh noes

[Menalque]

oh no good owl so clever he do catchy on lil old me

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oopie me so obvscum how misplay day so hard

[Menalque]

pls mr clever owl man teach I how to play maf game I not have any clue I just ickle babby player I hav to defer to years of experience that make u such good player

[Menalque]

what is secrit to play gud and have gud reads?

[Menalque]

it true I lie I ickle babby

[Menalque]

I like, don't care atm at all

VOTE: marashu

[Menalque]

who should I vote for PP

Marashu seems a good vote rn.

VC 1.15

Jake The Wolfie (5) - Almost50, dramonic, Hiraki, Testarossa, Marashu [E-2]

Marashu (4) - Dannflor, teacher, PenguinPower, Menalque [E-3]
dramonic (1) - Gamma Emerald
Menalque (1) - Dunnstral
Dannflor (1) - Bell
Hiraki (1) - Jake The Wolfie

Not voting:

With 13 alive it takes 7 to exile.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-08-23 18:40:00) or when an exile is reached.

Bell is V/LA until Monday.

Menalque is V/LA until August 21st.

ain't it grand how things work out

[Menalque]

(mara, dunn, testa, Jake) ~(hiraki > A50) ~~(PP > bell/gamma) ----- dram > teacher > dann, me

[Menalque]

(scumpool) ~(pool if any names in scumpool green) ~~(extended scumpool if more than a couple names green/people get conf!d by role) ---- townreads > weaker > towards > stronger

[Menalque]

okay I'm now gonna prodge until deadline can someone yell at me if I make a post with content please

[Menalque]

why not mara?

[Menalque]

Sorry if you’re town btw I kind of hate this sort of elimination. Because if I were a better player I would know what you were instead of putting the onus on you to show it.

..."this sort of elimination"?

It’s kind of one of those “Well, he’s not doing anything to keep himself alive rn”

[Menalque]

I'm slightly uneasy with the timing of dann's big post on why I'm town but willing to let it slide mostly on the basis of his V/LA

It's concerning to me that he waited until after I was burned out on the game to like... meaningfully support me in the game despite TRing me from much earlier before that? idk if dann knows me well enough to do that strategically though, and actually I'm inclined to say he doesn't, so it's probably town. but like equally I felt remiss not to mention that I was feeling a little uneasy about it in case I was killed tonight and dann was to then use it as towncred "oh look how hard I tried to get people to stop going after town!" type of thing

**

idk if maybe I should have dram and hiraki the other way around after reading the games dann linked for meta. maybe. it was certainly funny seeing dram do the exact same thing he's done here to NSG in the year she won paragon

[Menalque]

UNVOTE: My last post ~never happpened~

I figure the jake elimination will fill on its own, and i’m not particularly interested in my own alignment.
Marashu wagon is easy. But see nothing concrete.

what did this mean btw bell?

[Menalque]

See:

In post 1219, Menalque wrote:
well like, ur alignment would show bro, so we'd know if you were town or scum

So besides the advantage of knowing whether we hit scum or not (and I do think there's a decent chance of this slot flipping scum), having a wagon to analyze, and NKs, because this is multiball if we can end the day before the scum teams have things sorted, doesn't that mean there's a better chance they hit the other team rather than town? I remember hearing that it's usually to town's benefit to have a shorter D1, and 2 of the 3 games where I lost as scum had D1 end early, if I recall correctly. I'd imagine that especially applies in multiball.

u realise I was being entirely facetious when I wrote that, yes?

[Menalque]

I think it looks kinda of bad for mara that he's trying to use something I wrote that was fundamentally a joke/obviously a terrible reason to support his vote here

[Menalque]

@Mena Jake wasn’t doing anything that was blowing me away I figured it would be the same for others so I wanted to see who would vote Jake for more info on them later.

so, definitely not a scum slip, right? just checking

[Menalque]

ehhh I'm a very mood based player. I'm just trying to get better. sometimes I find things frustrating and I get too emotionally involved. I'm working on it.

so like what exactly do you think of Jake now?

[Menalque]

I think testa is likely to be scum, I think the way they've like faded in and out and not really offered anything much when they have been here (or like, she has been posting but just I don't remember any of it which makes me think I'm null on it) is +scum especially with me/dram/hiraki/dann/teacher going at it at various points and distracting attention. if I'm scum there and watching that, I want to let the townies kill each other and then push the ones who 'won' the next day for leading a guillotine on town

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

I've been missing too many points, and my reads are out of date. I'm going to give this game a thorough re-read in the morning and sort out where my head is at.

I guess like

I think posts like this come from scum a lot. like they feel like they need to justify their absence a lot more than town normally do who like, if they have time to check in more typically use that time to do what sorting they can instead of just apologising

I think dann kinda had a point on how he pushed for teacher (independent, thinking for himself) but then didn't really pursue it which makes it look like a very empty push? but I think he said he was more confident on that.

then he comes back to thread and votes you which is a vanity and just feels like the avoidance of being useful or giving a like ~*strong take*~ on what's going on while still having the semblance of activity.

then like as pressure mounts on him he comes back to the thread and votes his counter wagon more or less immediately

then most recently the decision to justify it -- and to think my reasons were serious -- and make sense to use of them in a defense of yourself, that just seems more like it's scum thinking and not town thinking? because it feels like most town wouldn't look at that and think "aha these are serious reasons for why mena thinks Jake would be a good flip today!" but I can totally see scum going "aha! this post also says that flipping Jake today good because X! I can use it to show that other people agree with me/in defence of myself!"

[Menalque]

I'm kinda surprised you don't prefer mara tbh teacher

[Menalque]

so then why you gonna hammer Jake when it's pretty viable we can do mara today?

[Menalque]

1. okay maybe but like just saying "sorry I'll be back later" is imo different to saying "ahhh I need to think about X" because X is a concrete thing and it's a different type of process. I think like ~*generally*~ excusing activity is a different vibe and I think what marashu did is closer to the first thing in quotation marks than the second. and you're prob not gonna change my mind on this being a pretty good scumtell fwiw, even if you're still not convinced it is

2. I think he gets to draw less attention to himself and to present himself as playing like he's town? Like I don't think marashu doesn't care how he looks (towny) I think he is playing with looking towny in mind. like a lot fo the time I think he gets binned as "we need to sort in the active players, who's scum in hiraki/mena/dram/dann/teach, huh? what's that? mara? lemme look. uhhh he's doing stuff, see he made a push here and a push there, I'll just town bin him until we sort out these people actively fighting"

3. Not at the beginning. But like I think if it doesn't seem like that person is very viable and you're like, not actively working on getting that person flipped it's a vanity. If someone is like a lot of people's second preference and you're trying to get a wagon going there, that's not a vanity. Even I wouldn't entirely be a vanity because there are some people SRing me. But like, I don't think we're ever guillotining dann today? so your vote would be an example of a vanity because that's just not happening, there's no one really scum reading him and no effort to actually get them flipped. it's just a place to leave a vote (look like scum hunting) without being implicated for being on a. town wagon.

I actually didn't like your vote on dann for the same reasons but you're like, more town overall so it outweighs that

4. & 5. I have nothing to say really

[Menalque]

1. I think one of the smartest things RC ever said was "don't look for what you think scum would do in games, look at what they actually do" and that's what I think this is, and why I think tells can be valuable when they're good. If was amazing at deduction/induction w/e then I would do things that way. But I'm not that good, and I think there are a couple of really good people who approach the game from a "look at what scum actually do in games" perspective and some of them have really, really high accuracy (like elli, RC)
2. I mean, do you disagree? Like do you get a vibe that he really doesn't care how he's perceived and just wants to introduce some fuckin scum to the choppy boi?
3. What were the reasons that were pinging you in the first place again?

[Menalque]

I mean so could I but I don’t think testa is like noticeably more likely to flip scum than mara rn and we already have a wagon here sooooo

[Menalque]

@A50 i think you’re playing this game in a very similar way to how you played Anuket and correspondingly in a dissimilar way to how you played jk9++

[Menalque]

@Menalque: You mean in the sense that I am typing in English??

But seriously, that's an interesting take. Tell me more. What similarities do you see?

You seem very checked out from the game and uninterested in posting or solving people’s alignments. I know you’ve given reasons for this, but you also gave reasons for that in Anuket which turned out to just be a cover for not solving because you were scum. So why should I believe the reasons you’re giving this game for not having an interest or trying?

[Menalque]

Also, yeah, what Dann said

[Menalque]

In Anuket; Menalque threw everything including the kitchen sink on Snow to be scum ans Mae to be town. Mae was eliminated and flipped scum, and we confirmed Snow as town (special mechanics); setting Menalque for an almost certain miselimination.

Spoiler: Mostly OOG stuff between A50 and I

This is like... not at all what happened? You’re right that that’s what people /perceived/ as happening, but it wasn’t. Here are some posts where I’m talking about mohab/mae (scum) and snow (town)

Spoiler:

Menalque, independently of Snowblaze, what is your actual read on Mohab?

I probably would have compromised there if we needed majority lynch

Her ISO is notably different from partition but I’m not convinced that means she’s scum. I still think the dumbtelling means probably town but like, I wouldn’t be shocked if it didn’t. Mostly she feels like a counterwagon to snow after the RCE counter didn’t take off, which is compounded by a number of scummy slots avoiding getting on her while not necessarily calling her town

S_S, chemist, RCE

I’d like it if some combination of you could vote snowblaze at this point to ensure she’s guillotined today

Why Snowblaze over Mohab?

I still think the original reasons for scumreading her are sound: the lack of scumhunting through the day, posts like 110 and 290 are overexplainy in a scummy way I think — there’s no need to say that mohab is scummy but not enough for a vote that early in the game and feeling like you need that level of justification is more likely to come from a new scumplayer I think. Same thing in 290, the reasons are very weak and probably didn’t need to be provided and I struggle to see why town would think it’s necessary to give them while making that vote.

Holden’s point is still valid about how 330 was an odd phrasing for why she was unvoting fredrick although her explanation in 530 isn’t unreasonable. However, speaking of 530, she has referred a couple of times to “not really having many scumreads” which I think is scummy (and more so from newbscum tbh) as I think it can be hard to come up with a convincing fake scumread when you’re scum and so it can be easier to just avoid that by saying “ahh everyone is just kinda town :/“

Her reads in 415 have an IIoA vibe to them where she’s just sort of describing what slots are like or what people have done rather than trying to figure out their alignments, and her 4 recent walls have nothing that I don’t think could be faked by scum in them and I see them as very out of sync with my own reads and impressions of those slots. They also just seem disjointed as a whole — like my pick for the scumteam rn is probably (snow, raya, eevee) and I think that makes a lot of sense given how they’ve reacted to one another and to the gamestate, which is the final bit of why I think snow is scum — the wagon on her came up quite naturally I’d say, but has been resisted throughout (it’s part of my scumreads on eevee and raya that I think they were both doing this) but no-one has really been wanting to towncase snow, they’ve just avoided voting for her or argued for voting elsewhere.

And then mohab feels like a soft target (given the dumbtelling and also the lack of posting) who scum are picking as their counterwagon to keep it off snow. I don’t feel strongly enough that snow is scum and that mohab isn’t to want to brute force her lynch

(which is something I’m trying to do less anyway, as you may have noted in JK9++ when I didn’t try to force lilith through when her wagon was competing with yours). I wouldn’t be shocked if mohab flipped scum, but it feels much more like she’s the attempt to keep the guillotine off snow after doing the same with RCE failed, and I think there is a lot of pressure on scum to try to ensure that their team don’t get guillotined D1.

Also, I’m weirdly not overly concerned about getting to flip scum today in that if mohab flips town I think snow is very, very probably scum, and there’s nothing scum can do to stop me coming after her tomorrow due to the first two nights being skipped. Plus if I’m right then we get two more tries at it where hitting on either is GG and I think I have a smallish pool for who I think make sense as partners for snow which will be significantly smaller if she reds and scum have to confirm five town

You also just seem.. like very upset about the fact I misguillotined you in JK9++, and seem to be using that as “evidence” for your belief that I value my own reads over everyone/anyone else’s. Like, dude, the fact that ~on that particular occasion~ I didn’t outsource my own read and stuck with my gut and was wrong ~doesn’t invalidate all the other times in multiple games where I’ve followed someone else’s reads over my own~. Literally, literally, that is what I’m doing in this game by not demanding hiraki. I am trusting dann that his hiraki read is good and that hiraki is not scum, or at least not in my pool for today. That doesn’t mean I townread him, but I have, you may have noticed, stopped pushing him.

And that’s why I think it’s sort of vaguely ludicrous that you’re fronting that you understand me as a player or have some sort of deep insight into my game? I like you oog, I think you’re often p funny, and I think you can be a strong player when you want to be. But I think the idea that you like ~get~ my game to the point that you should and or can give me feedback on it is wrong and I object to it on like an overall level.

Not really that game related I guess but it was irritating me.


**

As for your meta — idk if I wanna meta deep dive you to confirm that. Certainly in my recent memory, you’ve been more consistently engaged as town. I don’t necessarily want you dead today, but I do want everyone aware of the fact that if like 1-2 people in my scumpool flip town and I die, that you should be looked at very closely, especially if you still haven’t actually done anything.

P.s. as a final point, I think you also misread me at one point in jk9++ towards the end/were suggesting I was scum? I could be off on that. But if you were then the fact that I had the chops to get you flipped despite Blake and skitt TRing you is like immaterial to how good my reads are on you and vice versa.

This is probably the only bit in there that interesting or relevant to what’s happening this game:

“As for your meta — idk if I wanna meta deep dive you to confirm that. Certainly in my recent memory, you’ve been more consistently engaged as town. I don’t necessarily want you dead today, but I do want everyone aware of the fact that if like 1-2 people in my scumpool flip town and I die, that you should be looked at very closely, especially if you still haven’t actually done anything.”

[Menalque]

Ffs

@mod could you please fix the spoiler tags idk how I fucked that up

[Menalque]

I think my scumpool is now

(Mara, dunn, A50, testa) ~(jake > hiraki) ~~(PP > gamma/dram) ---- (Bell > teacher > dann > me)

[Menalque]

I thought I claimed because you were suggesting I was scum and it pissed me off and I couldn’t be bothered to defend myself by just going through how incredibly obvtown I was?

[Menalque]

Oh wait, no, it was PP wasn’t it

I thought you were scummy for wanting bingle. Sorry, I mixed that up

[Menalque]

Okay, sorry if I’m being rude in my reaction or unpleasant

[Menalque]

There’s always a benefit to fake claiming as scum to out a PR if you’re going down but equally a lot of players just don’t like the pressure of 1v1ing a PR or think it won’t be believable and so they claim VT, and then that can work sometimes due to WIFOM due to it being optimal to claim PR

What hiraki said is also valid as to why it’s somewhat +EV to just stick to eliminating that person after they claim VT

I lost a game not too long ago with marashu scum because I thought scum!him would claim PR and wifom’d myself off to flip a VT D1 instead

[Menalque]

gg

disappointed in the chemist elim but good consolidation on almost50 in the end

dont be i played really badly

You played fine, hiraki/dram just played terribly yet somehow this town carried them to a win

[Menalque]

This game was a mild travesty, but I still enjoyed the company of most of you

[Menalque]

Thanks for modding TL, thanks for backup modding datisi

[Menalque]

(mara, dunn, testa, Jake) ~(hiraki > A50) ~~(PP > bell/gamma) ----- dram > teacher > dann, me

Imagine wanting to guillotine a slot which had this readslist (2/4 scum in scumpool, two slots that were clearable and lurking intentionally meaning that if you expand the scumpool into scumleans 3/4 scum) day 1 before there were any flips

Just wow

[Menalque]

Okay that’s mostly it, just wanted to really rub it in both hiraki’s and dram’s wrong, wrong, wrong and ridiculously-arrogant-without-good-reason faces

[Menalque]

lol, oh the sweet, sweet taste of delusion <3

lol, I played far better than you this game but I’m not going to argue I’m a god because I’m not a fool:

Why is this day dragging so much, can we seriously not just execute in (hiraki, dunn, gypx, A50, gamma) and move on?

So Hiraki, how does it feel to be wagonned entirely by scum?

Votes on hiraki: (dann, bell, mena) (town, scum, town)

Dram who are your four scum at this point?

Menalque Jake Bell Dann.
The latter two are flexible, but I am REALLY not feeling this whole "let's lynch a lurker instead of scumreads!" charade.

I'm solidly town on Hikari and gamma
somewhat town on testa

There are other players in this game.

Fails to commit mostly, 2/4 scum, 1 scum in 3 TRs provided

VC 1.14

Jake The Wolfie (5) - Almost50, dramonic, Hiraki, Testarossa, Menalque [E-2]

Dunnstral (1) - teacher
dramonic (1) - Gamma Emerald
Bell (1) - Marashu
Menalque (1) - Dunnstral
Dannflor (1) - Bell
Marashu (1) - Dannflor
Hiraki (1) - Jake The Wolfie

Not voting: Gypyx

With 13 alive it takes 7 to exile.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-08-23 18:40:00) or when an exile is reached.

Bell is V/LA until Monday.

Menalque is V/LA until August 21st.

"This VC is odd. Why are there so many voters not on the same person, but then you look at me and there are 5?"

The townbloc is voting you and you're getting bussed.
We have a couple clowns voting random slots, 2 afk and teacher playing blind darts with his vote


Edit: can we stop saying people are moving down and up without specifying the ladder? I have no idea what yall are even trying to blabber about

Says townbloc is voting jake (A50, dram, hiraki, testa) (scum, known alignment, town, scum) lmao

(mara, dunn, testa, Jake) ~(hiraki > A50) ~~(PP > bell/gamma) ----- dram > teacher > dann, me

2/4 scum in direct pool, 2 clearable slots, 1/2 scum in scumleans

Q.E.D

[Menalque]

@deadthread stay mad

hahahahahahahahahahaha slurp slurp slurp

Don’t be mad bc ur bad lol:

i think the jake wagon doesn't really have much except for momentum behind it at this point and is probably bad then

????????

multiple names are acceptable, though ideally ordered

you, jake, dunn (i guess), mara

Yep. Never played with gamma before nor experienced multi replacements in a single slot.

Never.

Not once.

bell had a decent point lol, this is a trash response

(mara, dunn, testa, Jake) ~(hiraki > A50) ~~(PP > bell/gamma) ----- dram > teacher > dann, me

Q.E.D