Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[geraintm]

@ italiano - that was an awful lot of effort to get to the point that you read CFJ as town. you had to analyse everyone's actions with shelly, and then shelly actions with them. and all you get is CFJ is likely town? i'm not the only one who thinks you have reached. you answer might be right, but you have not got there is a good way.also, 1277/1278 - you are all too clever for me

Yeah there is more, but I want to clear up a few things first. Callforjudgment seems to be the first piece to where I think I’m going.

Get on with it then, I knkw we have ages to go but you are driving a lot of today and we can't wait 2 days for each person you want to tick off

[geraintm]

agree with this, this is one of those posts I hate from people where they give themselves weasel room to join a wagon at a later date.

it's only if nothing I would rather vote is around. Since you say this, what do you make of my similar statement from D1?

I've just gone through my posts interacting with you, and couldn't find me telling you off for waffling like this. I might have skipped your poat when you did this, when didnyou?

[Looker]

• Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

---

@looker

1st: I think thr chance of scum fake claiming isn't zero, but not high.

2nd: stop with the self votes. If you hate this game this much and as much as you say it does, take a mental break.

Looker is the sort of person I find infuriating to play with. Not mafia is another, I cannotnever get reads on their actions. There is a difference between not wanting them in the game and thinking they are scum though. Sometimes

• Ok.
  
• Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.
  
• Your infuriating idiocy is a personal problem - it has nothing to do with me.

Spoiler:

Um no? I never said that at all.


I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

Spoiler:

Walter, do you still have a scumread on Looker? Or do you now think me+Raya is the only possibility?

Are there any other slots you're considering? The only scumread-like thing you've expressed all D2 on anyone but me, Raya and Looker is a dislike of RCE's and Tayl0r's claims.

It might be looker, it seems he lurks more than the game I was with him in.
He is selfvoting. Why looker are you being such a weird pita.
Anti-town and possible scum.
Still think you /raya have a good chance of being a red .
I am not sure I exactly agree with 1275of Italianos.
I agree with gerain's assessment of raya and you.
I do have gamma as null and a poss if cfj flips green.
Nos I had a slight tr on earlier because of the vote but it has faded.

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

• Didn't you lose that game for us by being a horrible IC? Maybe you're just demotivating. Or maybe you should meta more, because this isn't lurking.
  
• Do you feel self-voting is more anti-town than not voting at all? Clearly I disagree.

---

• ItalianoVD is a joke. There was no way I could anticipate there would be three fakeclaims D2 when I replaced in D1. He's trying to sound self-righteous for townie points, but he's still avoiding committing to an actual vote while waiting to see if we'll actually believe his fakeclaim bullshit. He's just waiting to see if Raya will get to L-1 so he can hammer.
  
• 1318 was unnecessary - I would laugh if I allowed [redacted] on the internet to actually influence me.
  
• "Looker" was the quickest thing I could type in middle school. Frogster asking the tough questions

[RCEnigma]

Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

Got me super sleuth.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RCEnigma don't have the want or need to wade through toxicity.

[callforjudgement]

There was no way I could anticipate there would be three fakeclaims D2 when I replaced in D1.

Three? I can only think of one admitted and one probable fakeclaim D2 (RCEnigma and Italiano respectively). What was the third?

On a side note, #1318 was necessary because #1312 directly violated a site rule (Mafia-specific rule 3). The moderator would get into trouble with the site administration if they didn't at least give a warning for it. (If you haven't read the site rules yet, you should do so; games have been ruined due to people breaking them out of ignorance.)

[geraintm]

Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.

This response isn’t nice. My message to you (which was similar to the one which the mod said was over the line) was that if you are finding entering this thread this unpleasant then take a break and work out why. You say it is because you are finding multiple fake claims infuriating, and that may be the case, but if two different people in this game have both effectively said “you are being a bit much” and your response if to tell me to fuck off....well I would wish you looked at yourself rather than lashing out.

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

I like this though as a general rule. Def of two unflipped slots so early in the game. Day 2 and they will know everything we are trying to do to link people together and go all princess bride on us.

[Looker]

Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

Got me super sleuth.

VOTE: RCEnigma don't have the want or need to wade through toxicity.

As if you were so active before, prodmaster. Get your own schtick.

Spoiler:

Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.

This response isn’t nice. My message to you (which was similar to the one which the mod said was over the line) was that if you are finding entering this thread this unpleasant then take a break and work out why. You say it is because you are finding multiple fake claims infuriating, and that may be the case, but if two different people in this game have both effectively said “you are being a bit much” and your response if to tell me to fuck off....well I would wish you looked at yourself rather than lashing out.

Spoiler:

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

I like this though as a general rule. Def of two unflipped slots so early in the game. Day 2 and they will know everything we are trying to do to link people together and go all princess bride on us.

• For your clarity:
  
• You telling me how to play and where to vote is insulting. You're not superior to me - control yourself and I'll control me.
  
• I'm not emotionally compromised, lol. I'm an adult. If I find something not enjoyable, I know what to do.
  • Also, I never said I found
    anything
    infuriating - that was you. I said Italiano not claiming and RCE defending his not claiming were wastes of time. They are.
• Just because two people agree on something doesn't make it right. See the Holocaust and chattel slavery for reference.

---

• Tayl0r Swift claimed as well.

[callforjudgement]

I'm aware that Tayl0r claimed. I don't understand why you're describing it as a fakeclaim, though.

[geraintm]

Wow, godwin's law in a game of mafia. That's a new one on me....
Have I been out of control?

And me saying voting for yourself is bad....well I'm not the only person who has said that in a game of mafia.

I mispokse then if I thought you found all the fake claims infuriating. That was how it was.comjng across from you though

[WaltertheDunce10]

• Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

---

@looker

1st: I think thr chance of scum fake claiming isn't zero, but not high.

2nd: stop with the self votes. If you hate this game this much and as much as you say it does, take a mental break.

Looker is the sort of person I find infuriating to play with. Not mafia is another, I cannotnever get reads on their actions. There is a difference between not wanting them in the game and thinking they are scum though. Sometimes

• Ok.
  
• Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.
  
• Your infuriating idiocy is a personal problem - it has nothing to do with me.

Spoiler:

Um no? I never said that at all.


I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

Spoiler:

Walter, do you still have a scumread on Looker? Or do you now think me+Raya is the only possibility?

Are there any other slots you're considering? The only scumread-like thing you've expressed all D2 on anyone but me, Raya and Looker is a dislike of RCE's and Tayl0r's claims.

It might be looker, it seems he lurks more than the game I was with him in.
He is selfvoting. Why looker are you being such a weird pita.
Anti-town and possible scum.
Still think you /raya have a good chance of being a red .
I am not sure I exactly agree with 1275of Italianos.
I agree with gerain's assessment of raya and you.
I do have gamma as null and a poss if cfj flips green.
Nos I had a slight tr on earlier because of the vote but it has faded.

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

• Didn't you lose that game for us by being a horrible IC? Maybe you're just demotivating. Or maybe you should meta more, because this isn't lurking.
  
• Do you feel self-voting is more anti-town than not voting at all? Clearly I disagree.

---

• ItalianoVD is a joke. There was no way I could anticipate there would be three fakeclaims D2 when I replaced in D1. He's trying to sound self-righteous for townie points, but he's still avoiding committing to an actual vote while waiting to see if we'll actually believe his fakeclaim bullshit. He's just waiting to see if Raya will get to L-1 so he can hammer.
  
• 1318 was unnecessary - I would laugh if I allowed [redacted] on the internet to actually influence me.
  
• "Looker" was the quickest thing I could type in middle school. Frogster asking the tough questions

lol.
I don't do well with ate.
hahaha
I ddmit I would prefer to not talk about that game in which I did badly, but give chk some credit.

[Frogsterking]

I think Looker harbors resentment toward himself which is why he keeps self-voting.

[WaltertheDunce10]

I think Looker harbors resentment toward himself which is why he keeps self-voting.

Is that AI for you Frog?

[Frogsterking]

I think Looker harbors resentment toward himself which is why he keeps self-voting.

Is that AI for you Frog?

No.

[Frogsterking]

I think NM was killed because scum thought he was a pr since he didn't say that much.

[Frogsterking]

Scum should kill Italiano

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Have you changed your mind about #105? If not, why do you want the scum and a hypothetical vig to aim at the same target?

I think this was the birth of CFJ's bizarre post earlier where he thought I was vig.

I think it's a result of overly-literal overthinking and a very suspicious temperament.

I think CFJ was suspicious that NM was literally softing vig here then over-thought it, and that's why NM was the night kill.

[Frogsterking]

CFJ also may just have been role phishing me earlier as well.

[Tayl0r Swift]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

[Frogsterking]

Here's what I just thought of:

NM being killed was difficult to understand, the best theories I saw were floated earlier by RCE and Nosferatu, that it was a pr hunt, and that it was too difficult to understand, respectively.

I just came to a realization which builds off of BOTH of these theories.

CFJ made these two posts as part of a chain pain post earlier in D2:

After rereading Frogster (and thinking about the nightkill somewhat), I think that Frogsterking is town. Not_Mafia's play was, whilst not actually scummy, very anti-town (and Frogster picked up on that). So I'm pretty sure that Frogster would consider Not_Mafia's presence an asset to scum, and there's pretty much no way that a hypothetically scum Frogster would make that kill. (Sometimes scum make non-obvious kills for WIFOM purposes, but I don't think that a hypothetically scum Frogster would expect town to reason "Not_Mafia dead → Frogster town", so this would only be useful for WIFOM if he had a buddy point it out, and this hasn't happened.)

I was townreading Frogster anyway, though, even before the nightkill (his reads are bad but that doesn't make him scum).

---

Also, @

Not_Mafia

, just in case you're reading this from the dead thread:

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Even D1, some players were picking up on the possibility that Italiano was a confirmable power role (I saw Mason as a possibility, but thought that scum was a stronger possibility, and of course if Italiano was on the point of elimination as a Mason he would be able to claim out of it so that was no reason not to push him). He was, in fact, a confirmable power role. Those players are the worst possible slots to vig because if you wagon them and they claim, now you can let them confirm themself overnight and you get a second town-controlled kill; but if you nightkill them as town, then they don't get a chance to demonstrate why you're wrong about them. (This is especially important because players who are confirmable as town tend to put less effort into showing themselves as town through their dayplay!)

I'll be hopeful that you have a good explanation for this postgame. If it was just pure trolling, then you were playing quite heavily against your win condition.

After rereading Frogster (and thinking about the nightkill somewhat), I think that Frogsterking is town. Not_Mafia's play was, whilst not actually scummy, very anti-town (and Frogster picked up on that). So I'm pretty sure that Frogster would consider Not_Mafia's presence an asset to scum, and there's pretty much no way that a hypothetically scum Frogster would make that kill. (Sometimes scum make non-obvious kills for WIFOM purposes, but I don't think that a hypothetically scum Frogster would expect town to reason "Not_Mafia dead → Frogster town", so this would only be useful for WIFOM if he had a buddy point it out, and this hasn't happened.)

I was townreading Frogster anyway, though, even before the nightkill (his reads are bad but that doesn't make him scum).

---

Also, @

Not_Mafia

, just in case you're reading this from the dead thread:

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Even D1, some players were picking up on the possibility that Italiano was a confirmable power role (I saw Mason as a possibility, but thought that scum was a stronger possibility, and of course if Italiano was on the point of elimination as a Mason he would be able to claim out of it so that was no reason not to push him). He was, in fact, a confirmable power role. Those players are the worst possible slots to vig because if you wagon them and they claim, now you can let them confirm themself overnight and you get a second town-controlled kill; but if you nightkill them as town, then they don't get a chance to demonstrate why you're wrong about them. (This is especially important because players who are confirmable as town tend to put less effort into showing themselves as town through their dayplay!)

I'll be hopeful that you have a good explanation for this postgame. If it was just pure trolling, then you were playing quite heavily against your win condition.

Given that it had the opposite of the desired effect, I probably should explain this post.

The Not_Mafia kill N1 was outright bizarre, and combined with the surprising shelly flip D1, left me very confused as to what was going on; it felt like scum were intentionally trolling rather than trying to play normally (why doesn't scum shelly turn up and crossvote Walter? why kill the least useful townie in the game?) One explanation that neatly explains those two events is for Walter to be scum, but it doesn't seem to fit well with the rest of the gamestate.

As such, I was wondering whether the N_M kill was a vig kill rather than a scum kill (with the scum kill having been somehow prevented). I generally prefer to choose players who are being widely scumread as vig targets, but many players prefer to "policy vig" useless or lurky townies, and N_M really stands out as a vig kill when chosen on that basis.

I also suspected that the most likely Vigilante was Frogsterking (who was one of the players most strongly concerned with the N_M slot, and #809 looks like a breadcrumb to help town deduce Frogster's actions post-flip), leading to a townread (Vigilantes can't be scum), and a lot of alarm, because

I'm the Vigilante's top scumread

, which bodes pretty badly for N2. So I posted #1002 in an attempt to send a signal that would be picked up by a hypothetical vig Frogster, saying in effect "I think you made the kill last night, I was townreading you anyway but am townreading you more strongly because of it", hoping that he would realise that I was town as a consequence (if I'm vigreading someone and I'm scum, I could just shoot them and nobody would figure out it was me who had vigread them; although I only formed the vigread on D2, if I were hypothetically scum I would have the information to do this N1). I also included, in the same post, a discussion of vigilantes in order to clarify what the signal was about. Unfortunately, this sort of signal has to be quite subtle to stop scum pickign up on it.

Instead, Frogsterking started tunnelling me, which is not the reaction I expected and is pretty harmful to the gamestate. (It also rather increases the chance that I'm wrong about him being a Vigilante.)

I found these posts by CFJ earlier very puzzling. Why a vig? What is all this?

Which reminded me of how I felt about the NM kill. Then I remembered someone else had brought up the idea of vig on D1, it's just that CFJ was the only one who took it seriously:

Scum should kill Italiano

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Have you changed your mind about #105? If not, why do you want the scum and a hypothetical vig to aim at the same target?

I believe CFJ is both very in-depth and very literal, which is why the rest of us have difficulty reading his posts. I believe he's also an extremely suspicious temperament. So CFJ analyzed in great depth what he views as "NM's claim", took an overly literal interpretation as he has done frequently in this game, and decided to kill NM because he was very suspicious (which he is of most things) that NM was indeed vigilante.

I believe the idea in CFJ's post of there being a vig was very surprising because we didn't take NM's comment about a vig very seriously. However, ONE OF US did: CFJ.

I believe killing NM was also safe from CFJ's eyes because the most obvious one to gain from the night kill was Walter, not CFJ, since NM was a member of Walter's bandwagon.

Therefore I believe the most rational explanation for the NM kill is that it was a pr hunt and it was for a bizarre reason, it's because CFJ took NM's vig claim more seriously than we did.

[Frogsterking]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

I think I've come full circle to my early D2 reads, Gamma + CFJ, except I feel much more strongly about them now than I did earlier.

My third choice would be Raya, especially in a situation where CFJ flipped town.

If Gamma flipped town, I think it could be pretty much anyone + CFJ.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so I want to give my thoughts on all the ISO’s I’ve done in connection with the banana/shelly slot. First:

UNVOTE: callforjudgment

Of course I will be referring to 1145 & 1170. I placed them in thread as reference for not only myself, but for the town as well. Not sure if anyone else has read them both and has come up with their own theories/opinions, but that was the purpose. I have a lot to get into, so this is the first post of many.

There were a lot of mentions to the banana/shelly slot; everyone in the playerlist mentioned the slot at least once. However when it came to actual interactions (speaking directly to the slot) I grouped them like so:

~ interactions for the sake of having interactions; no follow up
~ interactions to get a read; sort the slot, answer questions, push, etc.
~ no interactions at all

Now those who fit the first category are (Taylor, Looker, RCEnigma). Those who fit the second category are (Walter, myself, Raya, Nosferatu, geraintm, gamma, callforjudgment) Those in the last category is (Frogsterking)

I also did an iso on the banana/shelly slot and noticed something: In 82 Banana sort of gives callforjudgment a pass for his long post and doesn’t scumread him. In 691 shellyc said she saw a town mindset from call.

Why was this slot the only one that saw callforjudgment as possible town, while pretty much everyone else saw him as scummy or scumread him? Now I don’t know about Banana, but Shelly has precedence for bussing her partner and I don’t see her buddying up at all. Although the slot didn’t actually vote for call I think if call was scum I believe both Banana and shelly would have either distanced or bussed or at the very least placed him down as a scumread, should he flip (given he was getting heat for some time). This makes me think that callforjudgment is actually town.

I've also been getting that feeling from cfj in general too. Maybe a bit biased but why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked. He even kinda set it up by saying he was worried about me trying to buddy him. Doesn't make much sense as scum.

"...why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked."

To drag out the conflict as a distraction while he phishes for

every

pr, then pocket you (in case someone else is lynched) or collect town cred for "defending" you in case you do get lynched.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so I want to give my thoughts on all the ISO’s I’ve done in connection with the banana/shelly slot. First:

UNVOTE: callforjudgment

Of course I will be referring to 1145 & 1170. I placed them in thread as reference for not only myself, but for the town as well. Not sure if anyone else has read them both and has come up with their own theories/opinions, but that was the purpose. I have a lot to get into, so this is the first post of many.

There were a lot of mentions to the banana/shelly slot; everyone in the playerlist mentioned the slot at least once. However when it came to actual interactions (speaking directly to the slot) I grouped them like so:

~ interactions for the sake of having interactions; no follow up
~ interactions to get a read; sort the slot, answer questions, push, etc.
~ no interactions at all

Now those who fit the first category are (Taylor, Looker, RCEnigma). Those who fit the second category are (Walter, myself, Raya, Nosferatu, geraintm, gamma, callforjudgment) Those in the last category is (Frogsterking)

I also did an iso on the banana/shelly slot and noticed something: In 82 Banana sort of gives callforjudgment a pass for his long post and doesn’t scumread him. In 691 shellyc said she saw a town mindset from call.

Why was this slot the only one that saw callforjudgment as possible town, while pretty much everyone else saw him as scummy or scumread him? Now I don’t know about Banana, but Shelly has precedence for bussing her partner and I don’t see her buddying up at all. Although the slot didn’t actually vote for call I think if call was scum I believe both Banana and shelly would have either distanced or bussed or at the very least placed him down as a scumread, should he flip (given he was getting heat for some time). This makes me think that callforjudgment is actually town.

I think Shelly and CFJ probably ego-clashed which broke down the communication in the PT chat. I think CFJ probably posts a bunch of analysis in there looking for the pr, then edits it slightly and copy pastes it to the main thread as "scum hunting", explaining some of his unusual interest in the player list and strangely constructed posts.

Banana didn't want to have to listen to that or follow CFJ's instructions, so he replaced out, then Shelly replaced in and she and CFJ tried to boss each other in the mafia thread, resulting in Shelly losing interest in the main thread, because she felt like winning wouldn't be all about her.

[callforjudgement]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

Only one extra person?

I would say Italiano/Walter as the most likely scumteam, and RCEnigma as the next-best option. I'll throw in a bonus "most players are townish, this player isn't" read on Looker, for if you're aiming to solve the game by PoE.

[callforjudgement]

@

Frogsterking

: As scum, it's nearly always correct to do PR-hunting at Night (rereading the thread), while you're looking at the kill. It would be a bad idea for scum to post pages of rolefishing analysis in a daytalk thread because they couldn't make use of that information immediately, and it would mean that they weren't being focused on the game.

As far as I can tell, you've never drawn scum (there are two games you were in whose records are incomplete due to a site crash, you might have been scum in those), so you might not be used to what a scum PT typically looks like. It is very rare for them to be anything like you're imagining they might be, though. If you're interested, here's a scum QT in which I was scum, in a mechanically complex game where roles were quite important, and it

still

doesn't look anything like you're imagining; there's very little bouncing ideas off of each other, and much more statements along the lines of "this is what I've figured out so far". In less mechanically complex games like Normals, there's rarely much rolefishing going on at all, it's more like "I think this person might be a power role", and even then it's usually a backup plan for if there's nobody you want to kill based on reads or WIFOM purposes. Besides, scum don't have the information to effectively work out the details of the setup on Night 1; trying to find associative tells pre-flip is hard enough, trying to solve complex balance-logic puzzles with no power role flips is even harder, and D1/N1 is just too early to effectively pull it off. So any early game PR-hunting is effectively done on the basis of "I think this player is acting abnormally scummy, but they aren't on our scumteam, maybe they're a power role".

I also don't think I've done any prompting of people to claim roles this game? I have been pushing Italiano to reveal his target, but he already has a claimed role, so that isn't revealing any additional information that's useful for scum (rather, it's trying to reveal information useful for town, by exposing a fakeclaim and aiding us in scumhunting the person he targeted).


(As a side note, Not_Mafia has been known to misuse power roles in the past, but softing vig would be an incredibly big mistake for an actual vig to make – there's no town benefit at all, and it runs the risk that scum pick up on the soft and kill you, or that town realise you're acting oddly and vote for you – so it's unlikely that an experienced player would even consider the possibility. #799 wasn't an attempt to determine if Not_Mafia had a role, it was an attempt to goad him into making a post other than his usual intentionally useless posts.)

[Nosferatu]

almost got prodded yikes