Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Nosferatu]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

looking at {raya, gamma} rn

maybe {cfj} but im starting to turn around on him for no real reason in particular

[WaltertheDunce10]

For the excercise,
I would go with raya + CFJ. if CFJ is town then look at gamma/ looker/italiano.

[Nosferatu]

without not mafia im losing my motivation to play

does anyone want to fake claim a result?

[callforjudgement]

For the excercise,
I would go with raya + CFJ. if CFJ is town then look at gamma/ looker/italiano.

The mention of Italiano here really worries me. If Walter is town, then his actions toDay indicate a strong townread on Italiano (why would you go along with letting him stay unconfirmed if you think there's a decent chance he could be scum, when you're in a position to intervene?). I can understand why Walter would defer to Italiano if he thinks Italiano is almost certainly town, but not otherwise.

Instead, Walter's basically just listed a list of "scumreads that are widely held", apparently without actually thinking about them. These reads don't seem particularly consistent with Walter's actions, but are easily explainable as a scum Walter wanting to keep his options open.

[Frogsterking]

@

Frogsterking

: As scum, it's nearly always correct to do PR-hunting at Night (rereading the thread), while you're looking at the kill. It would be a bad idea for scum to post pages of rolefishing analysis in a daytalk thread because they couldn't make use of that information immediately, and it would mean that they weren't being focused on the game.

Spoiler:

As far as I can tell, you've never drawn scum (there are two games you were in whose records are incomplete due to a site crash, you might have been scum in those), so you might not be used to what a scum PT typically looks like. It is very rare for them to be anything like you're imagining they might be, though. If you're interested, here's a scum QT in which I was scum, in a mechanically complex game where roles were quite important, and it

still

doesn't look anything like you're imagining; there's very little bouncing ideas off of each other, and much more statements along the lines of "this is what I've figured out so far". In less mechanically complex games like Normals, there's rarely much rolefishing going on at all, it's more like "I think this person might be a power role", and even then it's usually a backup plan for if there's nobody you want to kill based on reads or WIFOM purposes. Besides, scum don't have the information to effectively work out the details of the setup on Night 1; trying to find associative tells pre-flip is hard enough, trying to solve complex balance-logic puzzles with no power role flips is even harder, and D1/N1 is just too early to effectively pull it off. So any early game PR-hunting is effectively done on the basis of "I think this player is acting abnormally scummy, but they aren't on our scumteam, maybe they're a power role".

I also don't think I've done any prompting of people to claim roles this game? I have been pushing Italiano to reveal his target, but he already has a claimed role, so that isn't revealing any additional information that's useful for scum (rather, it's trying to reveal information useful for town, by exposing a fakeclaim and aiding us in scumhunting the person he targeted).


(As a side note, Not_Mafia has been known to misuse power roles in the past, but softing vig would be an incredibly big mistake for an actual vig to make – there's no town benefit at all, and it runs the risk that scum pick up on the soft and kill you, or that town realise you're acting oddly and vote for you – so it's unlikely that an experienced player would even consider the possibility. #799 wasn't an attempt to determine if Not_Mafia had a role, it was an attempt to goad him into making a post other than his usual intentionally useless posts.)

Yes and from your posts D2 it appears as though you did perform this night analysis and you came to the conclusion NM might be a vig. I don't believe any of the other players came to a similar conclusion about NM. Therefore I FoS you for the night kill.

[WaltertheDunce10]

For the excercise,
I would go with raya + CFJ. if CFJ is town then look at gamma/ looker/italiano.

The mention of Italiano here really worries me. If Walter is town, then his actions toDay indicate a strong townread on Italiano (why would you go along with letting him stay unconfirmed if you think there's a decent chance he could be scum, when you're in a position to intervene?). I can understand why Walter would defer to Italiano if he thinks Italiano is almost certainly town, but not otherwise.

Instead, Walter's basically just listed a list of "scumreads that are widely held", apparently without actually thinking about them. These reads don't seem particularly consistent with Walter's actions, but are easily explainable as a scum Walter wanting to keep his options open.

I have a very paranoid reason to suspect italiano may be fakeclaiming. I cannot reveal why at this time though.
You will also note that it is the least likeliest of people out there.
pedit I am with frog on the vig part.

[WaltertheDunce10]

Still think italiano is town though rn

[Frogsterking]

I think so as well.

[Gamma Emerald]

agree with this, this is one of those posts I hate from people where they give themselves weasel room to join a wagon at a later date.

it's only if nothing I would rather vote is around. Since you say this, what do you make of my similar statement from D1?

I've just gone through my posts interacting with you, and couldn't find me telling you off for waffling like this. I might have skipped your poat when you did this, when didnyou?

gimme a sec

[Frogsterking]

@ frogster

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

I'd be more likely to consider joining your wagon if I understood why you scum read him.

This is blatantly a post where you are trying to get someone else to make the case for you to join their wagon. you might not like the way I phrased it "asking for permission" but is the type of post people use where they want to move their vote to another wagon, cant justify it themselves so want to get someone else to write something so they can go "oh yeah, good point, I didn't see it that way, I will join you"

I read this as Frogster trying to get Not_Mafia to play more actively / less cryptically. If it had succeeded (and it was unlikely to do so), that might have been beneficial to scum (assuming Walter town) by giving an easy excuse to join the Walter wagon, but there are more obvious benefits to town in terms of reading both players. So I don't think #745 is particularly scummy.

This post is strange as well and stands out after the night kill and the bandwagon discussion today.

CFJ believes NM's play was "cryptic" which can be a synonym for secretive.

Then get this:

Out of all things CFJ could comment about he says that in a hypothetical scenario where Walter is town, provoking NM into playing less cryptically may be beneficial to scum by giving an easier excuse for them to join the Walter wagon.

How is that the first example you post when you don't even read Walter as town? And what would NM reveal that would provide an easy excuse for others to join the Walter wagon?

Town!CFJ this makes little sense, scum!CFJ who believes NM softed vig seems more likely.

From the hypothetical scenario he jumped to, it appears as though CFJ knows both NM and Walter are town, or at least suspected it heavily, and he is suspicious that NM is a vig or otherwise something valuable to town.

So in trying to offer "guidance" to geraintm on how to interpret my posts, he suggests that my attempt to get NM to open up may be detrimental to town because it will reveal that NM is the vig adding fuel to the Walter bandwagon which is ultimately TvT.

[Gamma Emerald]

Votecount 1.13

shellyc(5)

~ Tayl0r Swift(42), Frogsterking(46), ItalianoVD(68), WaltertheDunce10(73), geraintm(70)

WaltertheDunce10(4)

~ Raya36(57), Not_Mafia(25), callforjudgement(68), Nosferatu(83)

ItalianoVD(2)

~ RCEnigma(66), shellyc(70)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(80), Looker(55)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

MOD REMINDERS

• prodding Not_Mafia
  
• looking for a replacement for shellyc

Out of these I’d rather we come back to Geraint. I’d also be okay with Italiano, but Shelly and Walter are townreads (at least, I was townreading Banana)

• Gamma Emerald asked for a votecount and here it is; so who are you going to vote?

---

• Why did CFJ ask me to move my vote but not RCEnigma? Why are players ignoring RCEnigma?

Out of the two main options rn I think I lean towards voting Walter. I think while the Shelly/Banana slot isn’t doing much now what it did before felt quite towny, in the sense that it felt genuine and pure.

This is what I'm talking about
I gave a similar evaluation of my willingness to vote certain slots here, at least as I see it

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: RCEnigma don't have the want or need to wade through toxicity.

Did
-did you just poke at Nos with this

[Gamma Emerald]

lets do an exercise: everyone post your gun to head scumteam of two people with one extra person who might be scum for me please. this could potentially provide very interesting data.

Can I do this later today or do you want it ASAP
today has not been the best day for me, plans falling through has really messed with my head

[Frogsterking]

Also, VOTE: CFJ, I hope your play matches up to your role and setup design skills

If you think the scumteam might be CFJ + Gamma, then that means this would need to be a distancing vote. Let's follow it and see where it goes.

You can grow watermelons in them
Anything that I can grow a watermelon in
When I learned I could grow watermelons in them
Assur
I have faith in God, but I don’t have faith in religion.

5.
No.
Here I developed some even better questions!
1. Is it okay to put rotting produce into an uncooked stead as a filler?
What is the cinderblock you would like most as a pet?
Are pineapples good on pizzas?

VOTE: Walther
Now you’re just wasting time and space with this

Huh.. 2 posts later..

There the CFJ vote went. Never to return again.

Is cfj seriously being wagoned for being “too towny”?

Defending him now.

Like, the random trivia on geraint + rhetoric vaguely painting geraint as town + unexplained vote on Tay + the fact he was on geraint before then makes that looks extremely suspicious

Distancing. Spoilers: this shade will not go anywhere.

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Explain to me how we will lynch three players on D1 and I will.

We won’t. Now explain how anything scum does isn’t going to be in service of an agenda on the macro level

More shading CFJ here just for the sake of shading; ie distancing. I know, now it looks like it's potentially going somewhere, but remember: this was the scumteam Shelly flaked on it, so it's likely they weren't a fan of bussing.

With that said, RCEnigma seems pretty likely as an Italiano partner, and is also pretty likely scum if Italiano is town (even if Italiano thinks he has a good reason to wanting to increase the general confusion and antagonism surrounding the game at the moment, RCEnigma doesn't really). My main reservation against joining that wagon is that I don't much like the wagon that's there at the moment – I would have expected it to dissipate upon realising that RCEnigma has a tendency to do stupid and ill-advised gambits as town, but it didn't (in particular, the fact that Raya is still there is something of a point against Raya, as she doesn't seem to have a scumread for independent reasons). I guess I'm starting to see where the Raya wagon has come from.

This position strikes me as mildly convenient, and also a sort of hilltop positioning (where cfj is poised to progress this read in any direction)

More shading/distancing. Again, it seems like this is going somewhere, but watch later:

Anyone come to a similar conclusion about callforjudgment in 1275? Or am I off in this?

That’s not really part of my read on him at all

My heart and my gut say to townread cfj, but my head is telling me the few bits of potentially scummy behavior from him are worth pursuing
So I’d vote him around deadline but I’d rather listen to my gut vs. my head

This is where all the shading/distancing bring us, a very passionate, heart-wrenching town read?

Conclusion: Gamma is against CFJ except for when the vote counts, and when he is there he's expecting to be town read for it.

[callforjudgement]

Out of all things CFJ could comment about he says that in a hypothetical scenario where Walter is town, provoking NM into playing less cryptically may be beneficial to scum by giving an easier excuse for them to join the Walter wagon.

How is that the first example you post when you don't even read Walter as town? And what would NM reveal that would provide an easy excuse for others to join the Walter wagon?

Did you miss #774 in the middle of your quote? geraintm thought that #745 was scummy because it might be scum trying to find an excuse to vote Walter. I thought that that was possible, but wasn't the most likely explanation (in that there were obvious benefits to town too).

There's a difference between having a scumread on someone, and not even considering the possibility that they're town. I didn't have a strong scumread on Walter; and even if I did, I would be open to considering the possibility that he was town (especially when looking at a hypothetical scumread on someone else – in which there would be fewer other scum in the setup – or when trying to reason with someone and trying to explain to them why their reasoning was wrong, a situation in which I need to use their reads rather than mine).

In this case, I thought that the reasoning behind geraint's scumread on you was incorrect. geraint's read was based around a hypothetical in which Walter was town, so I started from the same starting point as he did, and explained that although how the post was consistent with you as scum, there were also obvious pro-town reasons why you might have made it, and therefore this wasn't evidence that you were scum. You seem to be taking geraint's argument for you as scum, falsely attributing it to me, and then claiming that clearly I have secret knowledge that Walter is town or otherwise I wouldn't have made it. Don't you see how utterly illogical this is?

I don't think I've ever seen people use reasoning quite this bad unless they're really deep in a tunnel. Please, step back, and try to evaluate your reads more objectively rather than getting caught up in emotion. I fear you've constructed some really elaborate, complex, unlikely and probably even internally inconsistent scenario in your mind by starting with an incorrect assumption that I'm scum, drawing tenuous conclusions from that, taking them as fact, drawing more tenuous conclusions from that, and so on. (I've been there myself; I've been known to tunnel as town on occasion, and it's really helpful if someone catches what I'm doing and points it out to me.) When you're this deep into a tunnel, the assumptions you're reasoning off have essentially no connection to reality, so your conclusions don't either. That means that, in addition to being wrong on me, they aren't going to be useful for scumhunting anyone else either.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma's normally quite a mechanically minded player, so this should be the sort of gamestate he thrives in, yet he hasn't posted much toDay. I'm interested in hearing more from the slot (and I don't think my RCEnigma vote serves much of a purpose any more).

If you believe in a Gamma + CFJ then that means that this would need to be an empty distancing vote or the beginning of a bus.

@

Frogsterking

: Have you forgotten your screenfuls-long posts on Nosferatu? #255 and #288.

By comparison, you did basically nothing to push shelly. You had a mild scumread in #488 and didn't make any cases for a stronger read all Day (and admitted as much in #784). The only actual pushing you did was #854, very late in the Day (it's after the deadline freeze had occurred).

You're currently posting as though you had a super-strong read on shelly throughout, but your day 1 posts don't match that very well.

Oh hey..it's all these posts again. What about that vote on Gamma?

Pretty sure I had the MOST posts D1, so this is a bad take.

For what it's worth, my memory of your D1 play is that you had a high postcount but also hadn't done anything particularly noticeable or game-progressing; my thoughts were often along the lines of "Gamma Emerald feels like a lurker, how did the postcount get so high"? It may be because a large proportion of your posts (not all of them, but many of them) are obvious comments that could have been made by anyone and/or didn't related to the main themes that were going on at the time, so it's hard to remember that you specifically were the person who made them.

As such, I don't think "Gamma Emerald is a lurker" is a useful conclusion to draw, but I also don't think it's useful to conclude anything from the fact that someone does think you're a lurker. A playstyle that includes lots of very short posts, many of which are generic, is naturally going to lead players to forget that you've done much in the game.

Huh. CFJ is actually defending Gamma now during his own push on Gamma.

Why has Looker not expressed a read on me all D2 (even if they'd prefer to vote elsewhere)? Moving to Frogster, especially when the conversation's been mostly about me recently, is a surprise; I would expect Looker to be defending me if they had a townread, and voting me otherwise.

VOTE: Looker

The "push" on Gamma ends here, after beginning with a vote on Gamma, bringing up the Shelly wagon, the night kill, his theory I am vig and night killed NM, defending Gamma, it concludes by joining Gamma's bandwagon on Looker, making CFJ's Gamma vote appear to be a completely empty distancing vote.

[ItalianoVD]

@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?

@callforjudgment: Why did you kill Not_Mafia?

@Frogsterking: Why did you not interact with the Banana/shelly slot the entire Day 1? And why was banana/shelly the better sacrifice than your other partner?

[Frogsterking]

V/LA over the weekend

(I finally have shit to do! )

---

• Gamma says I called myself scum, but I didn't. I offered an alternate interpretation of shelly's actions for Tayl0r Swift.
  
• Are the remaining scum Gamma and Frogsterking? Is this like a game show? Do I get a prize for guessing right?
  (Yeah, lol, an NK!)

VOTE: Frogsterking shelly, Italiano, and WaltertheDunce are the only people who have voted you. Could shelly have been distancing

Looker initiates.

Why has Looker not expressed a read on me all D2 (even if they'd prefer to vote elsewhere)? Moving to Frogster, especially when the conversation's been mostly about me recently, is a surprise; I would expect Looker to be defending me if they had a townread, and voting me otherwise.

VOTE: Looker

CFJ gets rid of the empty Gamma vote.

who are you

And only one person is voting you - you don't seem to be a point of contention

But mostly, who are you and why should I care?

Is Frogsterking your scum PR or something? Am I hot or am I cold? There's reasons to push me for both.

Interesting. Begs for attention, then does nothing with it. Got it.

Looker attempts to heavily provoke CFJ.

I'm pushing you mostly because a) my vote on Gamma isn't doing much any more, with the game stalling (the Gamma wagon produced some good content but is unlikely to generate more), and b) you seem really disconnected with what's going on in the game more generally. In particular, I'd expect the self-vote in #994 to be more likely to come from scum than town; it doesn't make any sense to do intentionally as either alignment, but it seems more likely that scum would do it by mistake (as they aren't normally as invested in any particular read as a typical townie is; scum are more likely to forget who they're suspicious of than townies are).

On a more general note, do you normally consider defending players to be scummy behaviour in general? (I'm trying to understand your read on Raya.)


PEDIT: It takes me a while to write posts. (And I've been receiving quite enough / too much attention recently, which is why I was surprised that you apparently hadn't noticed at all.)

After being provoked by Looker, CFJ responds that the Gamma wagon did indeed produce good content, but for an unstated reason is unlikely to produce more, hence the vote switch.

This seems odd to me, because I'm not seeing where CFJ applied pressure to Gamma, or where Gamma produced such content, it just looked like an empty distancing vote to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

@callforjudgment: Why did you kill Not_Mafia?

HUH?
Are you thinking cfj is claiming vig who killed NM?

[Frogsterking]

@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?

@callforjudgment: Why did you kill Not_Mafia?

@Frogsterking: Why did you not interact with the Banana/shelly slot the entire Day 1? And why was banana/shelly the better sacrifice than your other partner?

Because we didn't have anything that the other wanted.

[callforjudgement]

@callforjudgment: Why did you kill Not_Mafia?

I didn't. It does look more like a town-performed kill than a scum-performed kill, but I wasn't responsible for it.

[Frogsterking]

@

Frogsterking

: As scum, it's nearly always correct to do PR-hunting at Night (rereading the thread), while you're looking at the kill. It would be a bad idea for scum to post pages of rolefishing analysis in a daytalk thread because they couldn't make use of that information immediately, and it would mean that they weren't being focused on the game.

As far as I can tell, you've never drawn scum (there are two games you were in whose records are incomplete due to a site crash, you might have been scum in those), so you might not be used to what a scum PT typically looks like. It is very rare for them to be anything like you're imagining they might be, though. If you're interested, here's a scum QT in which I was scum, in a mechanically complex game where roles were quite important, and it

still

doesn't look anything like you're imagining; there's very little bouncing ideas off of each other, and much more statements along the lines of "this is what I've figured out so far". In less mechanically complex games like Normals, there's rarely much rolefishing going on at all, it's more like "I think this person might be a power role", and even then it's usually a backup plan for if there's nobody you want to kill based on reads or WIFOM purposes. Besides, scum don't have the information to effectively work out the details of the setup on Night 1; trying to find associative tells pre-flip is hard enough, trying to solve complex balance-logic puzzles with no power role flips is even harder, and D1/N1 is just too early to effectively pull it off. So any early game PR-hunting is effectively done on the basis of "I think this player is acting abnormally scummy, but they aren't on our scumteam, maybe they're a power role".

I also don't think I've done any prompting of people to claim roles this game? I have been pushing Italiano to reveal his target, but he already has a claimed role, so that isn't revealing any additional information that's useful for scum (rather, it's trying to reveal information useful for town, by exposing a fakeclaim and aiding us in scumhunting the person he targeted).


(As a side note, Not_Mafia has been known to misuse power roles in the past, but softing vig would be an incredibly big mistake for an actual vig to make – there's no town benefit at all, and it runs the risk that scum pick up on the soft and kill you, or that town realise you're acting oddly and vote for you – so it's unlikely that an experienced player would even consider the possibility. #799 wasn't an attempt to determine if Not_Mafia had a role, it was an attempt to goad him into making a post other than his usual intentionally useless posts.)

Out of all things CFJ could comment about he says that in a hypothetical scenario where Walter is town, provoking NM into playing less cryptically may be beneficial to scum by giving an easier excuse for them to join the Walter wagon.

How is that the first example you post when you don't even read Walter as town? And what would NM reveal that would provide an easy excuse for others to join the Walter wagon?

Did you miss #774 in the middle of your quote? geraintm thought that #745 was scummy because it might be scum trying to find an excuse to vote Walter. I thought that that was possible, but wasn't the most likely explanation (in that there were obvious benefits to town too).

There's a difference between having a scumread on someone, and not even considering the possibility that they're town. I didn't have a strong scumread on Walter; and even if I did, I would be open to considering the possibility that he was town (especially when looking at a hypothetical scumread on someone else – in which there would be fewer other scum in the setup – or when trying to reason with someone and trying to explain to them why their reasoning was wrong, a situation in which I need to use their reads rather than mine).

In this case, I thought that the reasoning behind geraint's scumread on you was incorrect. geraint's read was based around a hypothetical in which Walter was town, so I started from the same starting point as he did, and explained that although how the post was consistent with you as scum, there were also obvious pro-town reasons why you might have made it, and therefore this wasn't evidence that you were scum. You seem to be taking geraint's argument for you as scum, falsely attributing it to me, and then claiming that clearly I have secret knowledge that Walter is town or otherwise I wouldn't have made it. Don't you see how utterly illogical this is?

I don't think I've ever seen people use reasoning quite this bad unless they're really deep in a tunnel. Please, step back, and try to evaluate your reads more objectively rather than getting caught up in emotion. I fear you've constructed some really elaborate, complex, unlikely and probably even internally inconsistent scenario in your mind by starting with an incorrect assumption that I'm scum, drawing tenuous conclusions from that, taking them as fact, drawing more tenuous conclusions from that, and so on. (I've been there myself; I've been known to tunnel as town on occasion, and it's really helpful if someone catches what I'm doing and points it out to me.) When you're this deep into a tunnel, the assumptions you're reasoning off have essentially no connection to reality, so your conclusions don't either. That means that, in addition to being wrong on me, they aren't going to be useful for scumhunting anyone else either.

I view both of these posts as the long and anguished cries of an injured wolf, filling our afternoon sky.

[Gamma Emerald]

what the hell is with asking people questions assuming they're scum? I looked at the other ones and that now seems to be the case

[Frogsterking]

RAAAAGGGGGGAAAAHHHHHH!!

[Frogsterking]

without not mafia im losing my motivation to play

does anyone want to fake claim a result?

We could play Simon Says