Mini Normal 2173 | Bending | Game Over

[Infinity 324]

bc i was busy with work/stressed from work at the time???

i already answered this b4 why do u keep asking?

Didn't see your answer/was too confbiased and missed it. I think I believe you.

[Infinity 324]

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

When does scum ever guilty me in that situation? How the hell do I have the leverage to force a claim from

her

when

I

have a guilty on me?

[Infinity 324]

There was a 0% chance it was a scum guilty on me imo. I figured it was a gunsmith result or a gambit. DGB didn't seem to be taking it back, so I assumed it was gunsmith and she was forcing a claim. Yes it was dumb to claim there, but that was my logic.

[Infinity 324]

Excuse me if I'm not behaving in the most rational manner if I have a guilty on me. When the reaction test was revealed, yeah I was pissed at DGB but I was more upset with myself tbh.

[Infinity 324]

I guess what I'm saying is that I felt like I was forced to.

[Infinity 324]

There was a 0% chance it was a scum guilty on me imo. I figured it was a gunsmith result or a gambit. DGB didn't seem to be taking it back, so I assumed it was gunsmith and she was forcing a claim. Yes it was dumb to claim there, but that was my logic.

This makes sense.

I've explained this a million times though?

[Infinity 324]

Once DGB didn't retract the claim I thought it was a gunsmith. And I thought koba was scummy for other reasons, not their play.

[Infinity 324]

If I was mafia goon I could lie that I didn't get the message.

[Infinity 324]

Explain your VP townread again?

@Flavor

VP is my only confident scumread. As for taylor, sometimes I get soulreads on people and they just aren't wrong. Idk how to explain it any other way. I agree that DGB has made some towny posts, so I could maybe compromise on her. I just hate that two of the major lim options for today are me and someone who I can't ever see as scum.

[Infinity 324]

I would say I hope y'all listen to my reads when taylor flips town, but that isn't even a reasonable hope because y'all still scumread me for some reason. Fuck this game.

[Infinity 324]

This is strengthening my TR on andres tbh

[Infinity 324]

If you want people to even change their minds about you, posting this sort of nonsense is not the way. It’s also blatant ATE.

You’re right, this really isn’t helping. I hope you understand why I’m frustrated this game, but I’m going to try to stay calm. May towncase taylor later today.

[Infinity 324]

That’s not a terrible readslist. Talk to me about jackson, may come around on them.

[Infinity 324]

Andres, I really think you’re both town.

[Infinity 324]

Also why is A50 town flavor?

[Infinity 324]

Andres, I really think you’re both town.

I’m just telling you, it tends *not* to be the case that fights like these are TvT. There’s a specific reason behind it. Flavor wasn’t even trying to understand my POV, they never asked me if I was going to vote Tayl0r, or if I was waiting on anything specific. They just straight up made a lot of assumptions in order to attack me. This isn’t the typical way Town approaches a situation like this. And I’ve seen it in other games with capable Scum. So I would be careful about making the assumption.

I just don't see it. Capable scum have an agenda. They leave room for doubt in their reads so they can appear consistent when they switch. Their timing is a little off, though, because they push people when their agenda dictates and not when people do scummy things. What I'm seeing in your play that flavor isn't is that when you first came in, you didn't think there was support for my elim. Then I hard defended taylor and people started voting me instead. Flavor thinks you would push your preferred elim, but there's a lot of town motivation for compromising on your second choice. Since he's not seeing that, the play seems really scummy to him. There are scum explanations for this (he was waiting for you to come in and he'd call anything you do scummy), but it seems a lot less likely than he's town who feels like he found something and is pushing on that. Flavor's play this game in general seems really difficult to match up with an agenda, and the timing of his pushes matches up with where I'd expect town to push things. (Plus I really think he'd perform the kill n1 if scum, I know it's not a hard clear but still)

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I know the votes aren’t there. But I don’t want Flavor to come back at the end of the game after winning as Scum and saying that nobody even suspected them.

Lol this is a townpost

[Infinity 324]

Sorry taylor </3

[Infinity 324]

andres and flavor, please take a breather.

Scum!taylor never tries to defuse this situation since you two working together almost certainly results in her lim.

[Infinity 324]

Taylor-Andres team easily tries to diffuse this.

Even then, andres almost certainly isn't getting limmed today so anything that takes the focus off taylor is good.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

[Infinity 324]

High scum equity between Jackson and Taylor when taylor flips red here btw.

Despite blathering constantly about wanting to vote me, she doesn't because she knows me flipping green is bad for her.

Scum in that scenario might throw a vote to a buddy if the wagon is going nowhere

What? She's been voting you this entire day phase but your wagon wasn't going anywhere.

[Infinity 324]

There has never been more openness to my wagon as there is right now, imo.

Uh

Who is willing to vote you besides me, her, and n_m? Nothing changed

[Infinity 324]

Worried that A50 is trying to pocket me

[Infinity 324]

Bonus point - now that FL/DK outed as conftown, I feel less worried about being nightkilled so what I propose tonight is this - @Infinity, tell me who you are going to target and I can use this info and my own PR to confirm or deny your claim. Yes, it tips scum off who you will be targetting, but will be worthwhile IMO to get your claim confirmed/denied

Scum can NK you, but revealing who I'm gonna target is fine since I can still find whoever killed on n1. I'll think about it, probably want to target A50 or DGB

[Infinity 324]

Didn't FL express some openness to it? That's the primary switch I would target if I was trying to get me yeeted.

Pretty sure he just wants DGB or andres

[Infinity 324]

If we flip DGB and she's green, does that change your perspective on Taylor at all infinity?

Not really, I just have a soul read on taylor. My PoE is {jv, DGB, A50, VP, n_m}. If too many of those flip town I can start looking at andres or maybe koba again. Taylor is just town.

[Infinity 324]

It’s called mindmelding.

[Infinity 324]

Fully willing to devour my hat in postgame if I’m wrong.

[Infinity 324]

Or we could just win this game. I mean, what flip is going to open your eyes here?

That's the confounding part of this. You now know I was correct about town reading Koba. I was correct about FL. We agree on Andres.

I don't think you get it. I've never been wrong on a TR of this strength in my mafia career. If you're scum, I suggest giving up on this.

[Infinity 324]

Also @Infinity you may want to retract that your Claim makes you Confirmed Town, since FL is functionally an investigative based on what they’ve revealed so far. Just a random thought.

Fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

like i dunno. it seems like im dead here. koba is screaming that i should die and people are listening to the AtE/garbage reasoning. people are gonna listen though because koba's townblock is larger. unfortunately, that townblock also contains scum. but the scum get to piggyback of a townie whos being a moron. i feel like flipping me is the path to defeat, but whatever. im done fighting. apparently the people who are loudest and tunnel hardest win. i thought this playerlist was better than that.

flavor if youre town and youre noticing that everyone we push on towntells, but youre not sure who is lying because all the towntells seem genuine, then im in the same boat. and it suggests that JV is scum. and i still think VPB is almost guaranteed scum.

This is town.

UNVOTE:

I don't think DGB unvotes here as scum, it really switches the momentum. I'm ok with the JV wagon, though I'd really prefer VP or A50.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JV

Yeah I get it flavor.

[Infinity 324]

infinitys posting here reminds me a lot of [redacted] and its giving me the creeps.

Sorry about that, I just feel like I finally have a handle on my reads this game and am frustrated that people aren’t really listening to me. I’m trying to be cooperative though.

[Infinity 324]

How I interpreted it was: I think this is a reaction test.

If it's not

then I am willing to claim. (The part on bold is the one my mind "made up" as it was not explicitly typed)

Yeah, idk why but once she didn't take it back immediately I assumed it was serious.

[Infinity 324]

This thread needs more love. All of you are awesome, I'm enjoying playing with you even if I get frustrated sometimes. Also try not to spam the thread too much, we don't want people to be left behind if there's busy and stuff. <3

[Infinity 324]

Idk your meta, but taylor is town.

[Infinity 324]

They way she engaged with me on d1 felt super genuine, and she came around to TRing me at a spot which made a lot of sense for town. Her effort to engage with VP earlier d2 felt very genuine, and so did her solviness in response to coming close to being limmed. Basically I just have a soul read.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: VP symbolic vote mostly

[Infinity 324]

Targeting A50

[Infinity 324]

Targeting A50

ghjiyf86ygiuh;ju879t86ygiuhoiu876trtf

Are you actually shitting me... this... with your role.. smh

What?

[Infinity 324]

Targeting A50

ghjiyf86ygiuh;ju879t86ygiuhoiu876trtf

Are you actually shitting me... this... with your role.. smh

What?

I’m just finding whoever did the n1 kill, this way mark can verify me

[Infinity 324]

A50, I can think of other things mark can be to confirm my role. There's no way we have a watcher in this setup.

[Infinity 324]

So do we all really think taylor was twilight troll extraordinaire or can we lim VP/A50/DGB/JV

[Infinity 324]

I suspect FL would be the obvious NK choice due to his PR, but in the unlikely (IMO) case that I die here then it could well mean infinity is scum and was in danger of being verified.

So, tell me again how this works in your mind, cuz I'm really puzzled. Why won't you just stay hidden and target FL instead and catch a killer, rather than outing your role and Infinity's target??

(psst he's probably a voyeur)

PEdit: I'm pretty sure everyone thought it was hammer including scum but ok

[Infinity 324]

Feeling like A50 is town tbh lol

[Infinity 324]

I can choose a different target A50

[Infinity 324]

I'm debating if my death helps crack this open fully today. Me flipping green could show my hypothesis is correct and lead to a faster victory than of we even yeet scum today.

Do people really think this is genuine?

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

If I target whoever did the n1 kill, I get a guilty regardless of who does the kill tonight.

[Infinity 324]

Marky Mark has four people he'd clearly vote for, A50, Andres, Infinity, and me.
Three more where no one would bat an eyelash if he joined the wagon: N_M, Tayl0r, and VP.

So that's seven players he'd be OK yeeting.

But even JV "could well be town" so he could still be vote-able for Marky Mark.

Now we're up to 8 players he could yeet and be scumsistent, while obsessing over me.

Only two players (FL and KOba) he couldn't vote.

I'm always suspicious of arguments along the lines of "x player has too many scumreads/townreads, they must be scum" especially because of how much shit I got for not really having scumreads on d1.

[Infinity 324]

(i) I think Tayl0r’s progression on Infinity reads genuine. Infinity appears to agree. And if Tayl0r was pushing Infinity as Scum, hopping off after Infinity appeared to be gathering momentum does not make sense.

Yeah, what I was putting into the game really changed at that point, it makes perfect sense to switch her read there. As scum, she's less likely to pick up on that and more likely to stick with the read for the sake of looking consistent.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I mostly see scum have regular-looking readslists. Yeah the don't keep their options open as much, but they don't draw attention to themselves. Also, these posts don't seem like he's trying to keep his options open:

Taylor I am nullish on - I thought her criticism of Gamma's placeholder vote on N_M was opportunistic and she flipped between several of the main wagons yesterday but the wider general feel of her posts is townish and it feels like she has been trying to actively scumhunt (certainly more than some others rn) so I just don't think its a good elim choice compared to some others (DGB, A50, Andres)

I am content to vote Andres (or possibly A50 but as that is more of a feel-read, I'd rather refine it by hearing more from him (eg on his scum suspects as requested)) to reach a consensus if there is no will for an elim on DGB but it's hard to look past here when she slings stuff like above eg insinuating that I have no reads - I genuinely don't understand how other people aren't seeing this !?

[Infinity 324]

Jesus, is that too obvious to be a CW attempt?

[Infinity 324]

Jesus, is that too obvious to be a CW attempt?

CW? Court Wizard? Counter-Wagon?

Counterwagon yeah. Like I'm skeptical that's enough of a reason to change from 3252

PEdit: DGB, it's pretty clear he can't justify a vote on them except as a compromise right?

[Infinity 324]

I’m also going to agree that having the Detective claim their check beforehand is silly. I would rather have the opportunity for that to potentially hit Scum than have it be confirmed somehow. I don’t know what the value of that is, but I also don’t know Marky Mark’s full role.

The thing is, scum can use the same person to perform the kill tonight that they used n1. So it doesn't really matter in terms of finding scum, unless we lim the player who performed the n1 kill.

[Infinity 324]

PEdit: DGB, it's pretty clear he can't justify a vote on them except as a compromise right?

The door is wide open to make that compromise, a vote is already pre-justified - he can remain scumsistent and vote a whole bunch of players.

Idk, compromise voting locks you in quite a bit as scum, and you usually end up voting someone who probably would've gotten limmed anyway.

PEdit: yeah ok.

Mark, I'm going to target DGB if we lim town today, but if we lim scum, I may target someone else.

[Infinity 324]

I’m also going to argue that a Scum flip by VPB clears JV. Don’t see this exchange being SvS.

Why?

compromise voting locks you in quite a bit as scum

Are we talking at cross-purposes?

He is willing to compromise on nearly anyone. How does that lock him in? I see that nearly all the doors are open.

It locks him in because he can't vote whoever he wants. He's still forced into voting his top SR's as long as they're viable wagons. Like, I'd compromise on taylor if that was our only option to avoid a no-elim, and I think there's almost no chance she's scum. Being willing to compromise means nothing.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity, that post that JV made is too specific. Does it read like distancing to you? It doesn’t to me. It’s well crafted and reads like a legitimate push in my eyes. It also came very early in the game, and I don’t think Partners look to discredit each other so early. I have seen players do it, sure. It’s just less common. You’ll notice that VPB returns the favor to some extent, SR’ing JV at different moments, and putting some votes down in that direction. I just don’t see it.

I can see the reasoning for JV being town from that in a vaccuum, it does look like a genuine read to me. I'm not convinced scum specifically

wouldn't

distance in that way, but maybe they're a little less likely to.

[Infinity 324]

Andres, I didn't point this out at the time because I didn't think it would be helpful, but look at koba vs. VP's reactions when you and flavor were going at it. Koba was actively trying to defuse the situation and insisting that both of you were town. VP didn't seem super concerned by it and made posts like 3162 and 3523. It really didn't feel like a town reactions.

[Infinity 324]

Me, n_m, andres, VP, a50

L-1 by my count

[Infinity 324]

Makes sense, I do think this makes a lot of sense as a last-resort scum play.

[Infinity 324]

Mark, I'm going to target DGB if we lim town today, but if we lim scum, I may target someone else

@Mark

[Infinity 324]

Mark, I'm going to target DGB if we lim town today, but if we lim scum, I may target someone else

@Mark

Making 100% sure this gets seen

[Infinity 324]

I’m ok with not being verified, it gives me a much higher chance of getting a guilty if I don’t name my target. Taylor is town so it probably won’t be relevant, but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

Look at my discussion with andres on page 151. If we flip scum, that scum might've done the n1 kill, and if that's the case I can't get a guilty if I name my target.

[Infinity 324]

What

[Infinity 324]

Gj scum. I didn’t play my best but I learned a lot this game. Fwiw I don’t think town’s power was over the top (role watcher on mailman is swingy but not a powerful role in general)

[Infinity 324]

That reminds me.
The mark thing was hardly a cop guilty. It was a direct cc. scum!Mark could just have decided to trade 1 for 1 when seeing the boardstate being against them. I did slip though in my message to DGB and the revealed role of mark so theres that.

I think it’s always optimal to lim mark there. I don’t think scum!mark is in a bad enough situation on to make that play. If he was in a really bad situation, he’d probably get liked first anyway. 1v1ing someone is never a play scum want to make except in ELo

[Infinity 324]

Tayl0r's locktown read on A50 sincerely amused me.

Man I didn’t get why people TRed A50 and I sheeped their reads anyway ._.

It didn’t help that one of those people was flavor

[Infinity 324]

Still was a fun game regardless. Thanks for playing everyone.

pedit @ FL- I mean maybe, that's not really how I perceived it. The reason I got involved in that is because infinity and taylor were 'locktown' reading each other for BS reasons and then trying to gang up on me with bad reasoning. It stank of scum duping someone who they play with a lot.

I think a hard thing with coming back is I am at zero experience with most people I play with. So it's hard to know people's personalities and what their weak/strong points are.

Yeah sometimes I just get soulreads on people, it’s hard to trust them because it’s mostly gut but they haven’t been wrong yet so I just trust them. I’d caught taylor as scum twice recently so that strengthened my read too. I knew there was a strong scum player manipulating me I just couldn’t tell who it was.

[Infinity 324]

That reminds me.
The mark thing was hardly a cop guilty. It was a direct cc. scum!Mark could just have decided to trade 1 for 1 when seeing the boardstate being against them. I did slip though in my message to DGB and the revealed role of mark so theres that.

I think it’s always optimal to lim mark there. I don’t think scum!mark is in a bad enough situation on to make that play. If he was in a really bad situation, he’d probably get liked first anyway. 1v1ing someone is never a play scum want to make except in ELo

I heavily disagree. Mostly on the "except in ELo" part.

ELo-1 is perfectly acceptable. You put your team in a position where town cannot mess up and that lets them instant win the game potentially.

If you’re in a bad situation you’ll just get limmed anyway. If you’re in a good spot there’s no reason to sacrifice yourself. Idk.

[Infinity 324]

infinity wrt to the reads list thing, I genuinely was forgetting to/was busy, but you were right that I would forget reads as scum. This game was a bit easier because the boardstate was pretty obvious for me. If you look closely though you may notice that I at some point traded the way I was reading JV with votato.


that was a genuine scumslip from me

Lol yeah. That makes me feel a bit better but I still hate that I dropped that push. Twice even.

[Infinity 324]

the push genuinely frustrated me bc i wasnt even lying

Yeah for sure. It’s always tough to respond in those situations as scum.

Flavor you are going to get a kick out of the dead thread.

[Infinity 324]

the push genuinely frustrated me bc i wasnt even lying

Yeah for sure. It’s always tough to respond in those situations as scum.

Flavor you are going to get a kick out of the dead thread.

like the thing about d1? you're nearly never catching scum!koba genuinely. d1 is so easy to mimic my towngame unless you find the genuine places where I purposefully avoid acting (like "why didn't you push on that koba") looking at where i'm NOT pushing is the way to catch out players like me who are expertly mimicing how they play as town.

Oh I thought we were talking about d2 when I pushed you about the readslist thing. Only reason I thought you were scum d1 is because you were towny at the beginning and got less towny as the day went on. Could’ve been work or whatever but I see that from scum pretty often.

[Infinity 324]

Oh you weren't simple lol

[Infinity 324]

I can't believe you got townread for outing a PR, gj with that

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I felt like an idiot when that happened, I got way too flustered.

[Infinity 324]

Result

Well I'm town so

Oh

I'll take your word for it, the mod probably made a mistake.

[Infinity 324]

"The mod probably made a mistake" implies the mod said something that confirms me as scum right?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I was a little more content this game to sit back because my PR could help sort people. That may have been part of why I got scumread.

Out of curiosity, did y'all suspect me of being a PR after d1?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that makes sense. I was super upset to find out who taylor was after what happened this game.

[Infinity 324]

with this setup the way it was built if i ever join another normal if a PR claim is scummy idc what they are. you are GONE. esp after VP's fiasco in our game where I backed off bc ppl were telling me off >.>

Basically this. Like all game I kept talking myself out of it. SO STUPID!

I was like, "don't believe shit role claims, that's how you got so deep in that game"...and then I let it slide anyhow.

I mean I would’ve been limmed for sure on d2 if you followed that logic but fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry about that push gamma I was super lost d1 this game :/

[Infinity 324]

Relatable

[Infinity 324]

Sigh. That Marky Mark yeet really wasn’t as good of an idea as I thought in terms of the upside. I hate that I was right at the beginning of that day and just went back on it. Ugh.

@Flavor that gambit you guys played proved to really move the game in your favor.

Good game Scum. I think Town had good moments, but on balance not a great game for us. Infinity I’m sorry! My read of NotMafia though is my own personal highlight haha

It’s ok, I think you played a pretty good game all told.